00:02:49 04Build failed for 08mega_microtemples @ 00466bf9 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/2580565330 00:39:19 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-731-ga39a8af6d9: Adjust arbalest and hand crossbow (acrobat) 10(66 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a39a8af6d90c 00:40:15 <12ebering> wow 17 dam hand xbow 00:40:20 <12ebering> all gas no brakes 00:41:58 <10PleasingFungus> did you see the chart! 00:42:05 <10PleasingFungus> the color coding doesn't lie, ebering 00:42:12 <10PleasingFungus> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/205316046230388737/991216806184366130/range.PNG 00:42:36 <10PleasingFungus> (possibly 16 would have been a more reasonable number.) 00:42:51 <08nicolae> nah 00:42:52 <08nicolae> go with 17 00:44:44 03nicolae02 {GitHub} 07* 0.29-a0-732-g3d7fbe0af2: vaults: add several small vaults containing transporters to mini_features.des 10(3 seconds ago, 1 file, 181+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3d7fbe0af29e 00:44:49 <10PleasingFungus> nice 00:47:47 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-732-g3d7fbe0af2 (34) 01:15:21 <12ebering> Tried to get to <50 prs outstanding before bed 01:20:07 <12ebering> Alas 01:34:59 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-732-g3d7fbe0af2 (34) 01:53:54 <10PleasingFungus> every pr is beautiful 01:54:01 <10PleasingFungus> you’re doing hero’s work 01:57:07 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-732-g3d7fbe0af2 02:18:31 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.29-a0-732-g3d7fbe0af2 (34) 02:54:16 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-732-g3d7fbe0af2 03:32:04 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4753-g3cc4eb4eda 06:22:50 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4753-g3cc4eb4eda 08:06:49 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.29-a0-732-g3d7fbe0 (34) 08:24:13 03张凯02 {GitHub} 07* 0.29-a0-733-g4208692735: text: update zh/items.txt 10(5 seconds ago, 1 file, 888+ 243-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/420869273557 08:24:15 03ebering02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2543 * 0.29-a0-416-g36d1aff321: Apply suggestions from code review 10(52 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/36d1aff3213c 08:32:30 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-733-g4208692735 (34) 08:33:58 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-734-g8f12646833: lint: checkwhite 10(63 seconds ago, 1 file, 10+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8f12646833de 08:33:58 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-735-gdc9d147ae0: text: sling changes in zh/items.txt 10(16 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dc9d147ae0bc 08:40:22 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-736-g9e4779279f: vaults: tweak two arrival vaults 10(25 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9e4779279f16 08:47:04 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-736-g9e4779279f (34) 09:12:33 04Build failed for 08master @ 9e477927 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/2583166784 09:16:35 04Build failed for 08master @ 42086927 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/2583074603 09:20:32 ppa.launchpad.net glitch again 09:43:23 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-737-gcd6ae0ea07: fix: scary damage fraction at tier 2 (Sentei) 10(22 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cd6ae0ea0728 09:47:31 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-737-gcd6ae0ea07 (34) 09:58:41 034Hooves2Appendages02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2587 * 0.29-a0-732-g61941af189: Update quotes.txt 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 16+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/61941af189eb 10:52:56 03spicyCebolla02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-738-g91da1267ba: fix: entry vault missing some blood 10(4 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/91da1267ba8f 10:52:56 03spicyCebolla02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-739-g85b6c24e30: vaults: arrival vaults by SpicyCebolla 10(4 months ago, 2 files, 140+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/85b6c24e304b 10:58:03 03ebering02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2587 * 0.29-a0-733-gd94ed0b0b9: Update crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/quotes.txt 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d94ed0b0b9e6 10:58:03 03ebering02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2587 * 0.29-a0-734-gd5211a880a: Update crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/quotes.txt 10(75 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d5211a880ab4 10:59:10 034Hooves2Appendages02 {GitHub} 07* 0.29-a0-740-g7d34257905: text: quotes for charm and Mephetic cloud 10(4 seconds ago, 1 file, 26+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7d34257905b8 11:02:28 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-740-g7d34257905 (34) 11:06:14 <10PleasingFungus> i often worry that entry vaults are missing blood 11:16:41 03RojjaCebolla02 {GitHub} 07* 0.29-a0-741-ge5bf7c5c39: feat: reduce the +stab effect on Spriggan's Knife by 50% 10(3 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e5bf7c5c39c7 11:28:17 <05kate> not sure that the spriggan's knife was really particularly a problem, but that probably ought to have an update to the description at least? 11:29:58 <12ebering> hm yes 11:30:08 <05kate> if it does need a change, maybe a cleaner fix would be to move the stab type upgrade to after the dex roll, so that you still have to get a successful stab attempt the usual way, but the damage is upgraded whenever you do 11:32:28 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-741-ge5bf7c5c39 (34) 11:32:47 <05kate> maybe that's a bigger nerf but seems simpler to communicate 11:40:11 03Alex Jurkiewicz02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-742-gfe44c63f7f: refactor: simplify player mp/hp-on-kill implementation 10(4 months ago, 1 file, 85+ 84-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fe44c63f7fe3 11:40:11 03Alex Jurkiewicz02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-743-gda9226009b: refactor: tag out some Pakellas-specific code 10(4 months ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/da9226009b18 11:47:29 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-743-gda9226009b (34) 11:49:15 <08nicolae> i had a thunk last night of a form, maybe there's something there. "Giant Flying Brain Form" (flavor can be changed), with your vast new intellect you get big bonuses to spellcasting (brilliance, archmagi, int+10, etc. etc.), maybe even some light telekinesis (flying, SH, RMsl, EV, etc.), but you become insanely squishy, with reduced HP and very low AC, for those situations where you can take care of somebody with conjurations at a 11:49:15 distance. role: gives tmuts an "off ramp" to a more blastery style, or conjurers can take a lil tmut, or regular tmut can have a way to help deal with stuff they don't want to get close enough to punch. thank you for your time. love nicolae 11:50:35 <10PleasingFungus> love u too 11:50:43 <10PleasingFungus> great theme 11:51:20 <10PleasingFungus> sounds impossibly good for already blastery types 11:51:37 <08nicolae> there is that, yeah 11:52:27 <08nicolae> i guess the question is, is it possible to find a right level of squishiness to where there's still a risk in using it so you don't use it every time but also not so squishy that it becomes useless 11:54:31 <08nicolae> one other thought i had was that stuff like beastly appendage counts as a form, so you can't stack it with like ice form or whatever, i wonder if that paradigm would make it easier to bring back the charms functionality, little form changes that give you a bonus but don't meld everything and you can't stack them all before a fight 11:59:01 <10PleasingFungus> less concerned about stacking everything and more interested in making ‘casting a spell’ be sn interesting decision rather than a pre fight chore 12:00:22 <08nicolae> true, true 12:00:25 <08nicolae> 🤔 12:02:37 03Perry Fraser02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-744-g221c65d467: fix: correct desc. grammar for CANT_SEE_YOU status 10(4 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/221c65d4674c 12:03:11 <09gammafunk> it's interesting to tm to something like summons, which likewise doesn't have loads of directly transferable spell skills. For summons it tends to be that the starting book simply carries a little bit more easily, mostly because the spells can be used in tandem. Seems like that's never going to be a viable route for something like tm, you maybe have to simply have more tm-using damage skills maybe 12:03:26 <10PleasingFungus> my proposed beastly appendage change is to make it merge nothing and give no auxes, but set your UC to a flat base that doesn’t scale w skill. no fussing with weird op hat melding issues , simplifies skilling 12:03:46 <09gammafunk> might also help to dump up the scaling of ice form a little more (you could always totally rework ice form if you desired, as well) 12:04:20 <10PleasingFungus> yeah, summons are an interesting comparison. one thing about summons is that it can be fairly natural to transition into melee if you aren’t finding good spells, since it synergizes well with summons 12:04:42 <10PleasingFungus> not required by any means, but sn option that isn’t really there for tmut 12:05:36 <09gammafunk> you basically can always keep training UC to get more damage, but a bit more damage tends to be less impact than didn't have a weapon vs I have a weapon 12:06:01 <10PleasingFungus> i also intuitively feel there are more summon spells than tmuts, but haven’t confirmed 12:06:48 <09gammafunk> I wonder about tm damage spells that only work if you're in a form, but maybe that's hard to make work 12:06:58 <09gammafunk> a potential avenue though 12:07:11 <08nicolae> oh, someone in dcss just posted something about tmuts that don't affect the player, which reminds me of a thing i also thought of last night, which can either be a targeted spell on its own, or a form that inflicts this effect or similar: Remove Face. temporarily blinds, silences, asphyxiates, removes bite and peck attacks, etc. 12:07:17 <09gammafunk> guess in a way it's a bit close to the model of e.g. stoneskin 12:07:58 the return of pies 😛 12:08:05 <09gammafunk> that sounds like enfeeble 12:08:14 <08nicolae> dammit you're right 12:08:30 <08nicolae> in my defense this was after midnight 12:08:35 <09gammafunk> and the other bits are just complexity that doesn't really do much I'm afraid, re: bite attacks 12:08:45 <09gammafunk> well, I guess it makes biting monsters helpless 12:08:50 <08nicolae> yeah, like it might be nice in spider 12:08:56 <09gammafunk> but that seems basically undesireable 12:09:01 <08nicolae> oh well 12:09:19 <12ebering> there are more summon spells than tmuts 12:09:23 <09hellmonk> I should do a comprehensive review of cross school spell coverage 12:09:37 <10PleasingFungus> ty ebering 12:09:42 <09hellmonk> Seems helpful for things like this to know where the natural crossover points are 12:09:46 <12ebering> I remember counting them when anime armour was added and complaining that the biggest school was getting bigger (it was a wash w/demon removal but you know) 12:09:52 <10PleasingFungus> lol 12:10:03 <10PleasingFungus> summons are just so fun to design 12:10:22 <10PleasingFungus> i should split summons school in two so i can add more summons 12:10:47 <10PleasingFungus> (not doing this, but only because some people don’t enjoy ally play) 12:10:50 <09hellmonk> when I was pruning down spells for aborted post hell crawl project I recall hexes also being quite large, but that might have been a factor of stuff I moved around previously 12:11:08 <09hellmonk> conjurations was by far the largest for a long while iirc 12:11:15 <12ebering> oh hellmo is awake 12:11:17 <10PleasingFungus> yeah sounds right 12:11:24 <08nicolae> i think smallest is tloc? 12:11:30 <12ebering> answer my small temple review so I can merge it 12:11:34 <10PleasingFungus> lol 12:11:41 <09hellmonk> Oh sure, I will do that tonight 12:11:48 <09hellmonk> On phone at work atm 12:12:55 <12ebering> only had 1 q: for the smashbro every temple, should the borders around the altars be uniform colour and if so which one (clear wall colour or darkgrey) 12:13:17 <09hellmonk> oh, good question. Idk which would look better 12:13:33 <09gammafunk> darkgrey? what feature 12:13:44 <12ebering> one sec, gonna post some screenshots 12:13:46 <09gammafunk> we usually try to avoid coloring features darkgrey 12:13:52 <09hellmonk> I was going to use regular walls and doors but I thought it would be too annoying 12:14:00 <09gammafunk> hellbinder is a weird exception 12:14:21 <09hellmonk> Not fun to open up that many doors if yr doing say a speedrun 12:14:37 <08nicolae> ebering: replied to your comments on the nethack vaults, thank you! 12:17:04 <10PleasingFungus> currently thinking about a spell that evokes a wand of your choice on every monster in… hailstorm radius? or non adjacent monsters, or hailstorm + 1? 12:17:12 <10PleasingFungus> ui would be weird 12:17:28 <09hellmonk> Bring back pakellas and make that the active 12:17:29 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-744-g221c65d467 (34) 12:17:33 <10PleasingFungus> fair 12:17:37 <12ebering> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/991739225143771256/Screen_Shot_2022-06-29_at_11.16.22.png 12:17:38 <12ebering> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/991739225550622811/Screen_Shot_2022-06-29_at_11.17.26.png 12:17:43 <10PleasingFungus> ooh 12:17:50 <10PleasingFungus> love these glyphs tbqh 12:17:56 <08nicolae> what da 12:17:57 <10PleasingFungus> feels qud 12:18:09 <12ebering> (ebering glyphs a little annoyed with locale, I forget which one stops the parsing locally) 12:18:20 <08nicolae> i like the biohazard altar, whose is that 12:18:39 <12ebering> J 12:18:42 <09hellmonk> Think clear actually looks slightly better, which is not what I expected 12:20:45 <09gammafunk> I would just recommend against using darkgrey for any terrain 12:20:50 <09gammafunk> because it looks like out of los 12:21:17 <08nicolae> use darkgrey to trick the player into thinking all the terrain is out of los 12:21:24 <09hellmonk> Also thinking about altar distribution some more and wondering if random2avg on the whole thing narrows it too much 12:22:09 <09hellmonk> makes getting a 6 or a 21 a bit under 1/200 iirc, maybe shouldn't be quite that rare 12:23:40 <12ebering> could do a truncated normal, max(6, min(21, random2avg(30,2)) 12:23:48 <12ebering> (variations on shifts etc to bias) 12:24:22 <09hellmonk> I'll leave it up to you, just something to consider 12:24:54 <09hellmonk> As long as the mean is somewhere around 13-14 it should work out well enough 12:29:41 <12ebering> ya, thanks for pointing it out 12:39:00 04Build failed for 08master @ 221c65d4 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/2584313945 12:39:22 <12ebering> flake 12:57:05 <05kate> oh, this reminds me actually, I keep meaning to look into making it so temple is just fully mapped as you enter it 12:58:15 <05kate> would solve a lot of issues with various temple layouts that are obnoxious to explore 12:58:27 03ebering02 {GitHub} 07[mega_microtemples] * 0.29-a0-678-g20259b2f9d: Update crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/temple.des 10(6 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/20259b2f9da3 12:58:30 Branch pull/2586 updated to be equal with mega_microtemples: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2586 12:58:54 <05kate> and I think fits thematically in terms of emphasising that it's safe and distinct from all of the rest of the dungeon 12:59:43 <08nicolae> wait, the temple is supposed to be safe?! 12:59:50 <08nicolae> what am i supposed to do with all these dang pan lords 13:03:35 New branch created: pull/2591 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2591 13:03:35 03Aliscans02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2591 * 0.29-a0-724-gc294686553: Only list gods you can ever worship in the dungeon overview & dump. 10(26 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c29468655367 13:06:47 hm, making the overview variable, will that break qw / other bots? 13:08:03 03hellmonk302 {GitHub} 07* 0.29-a0-745-gd6dbc1d939: feat: nine new temples 10(5 seconds ago, 1 file, 395+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d6dbc1d93967 13:08:53 https://github.com/damerell/crawl/commit/f0279bde6285c7555f96b29b6855a716340d5458 didn't break qw, FWIW 13:09:55 <12ebering> bot breaking changes are acceptable if they're a UI improvement 13:17:22 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-745-gd6dbc1d939 (34) 13:18:02 kate-, when/if you make Temple fully mapped, think of doing the same for Gauntlet. 13:22:21 <08nicolae> @ebering: i just noticed that hellmonk's commit doesn't add any temple maps that have a non-variable number of altars less than 9. i have one or two. should i add a separate category to the organization before the <<1>> Nine to twelve altars section, or just expand it to something like <<1>> Twelve or fewer altars so i don't have to renumber everything 13:23:48 <12ebering> as you like 13:24:14 <12ebering> probably better to have a small temple section though 13:24:18 <08nicolae> makes sense 13:50:09 <09gammafunk> no, qw does a stash search to find altars, and I don't think any bot reads overview to determine gods 13:50:25 04Build failed for 08master @ d6dbc1d9 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/2584645031 13:54:14 <09gammafunk> geekosaur: sorry, that reply above was for you, used discord reply button 13:54:34 okay 13:54:38 was just wondering 13:55:44 (at least discord reply doesn't make a mess irc-side like matrix's does) 13:56:48 <09gammafunk> well I've been thinking about implementing a bridge-reply thing 13:57:00 <09gammafunk> but it would hopefully not be a mess 13:58:09 Discord|: Well it's not a big mess but it seems to annoy people 13:58:21 oh, heh, they improved it 13:58:34 or I needed to use reply-in-thread to make a bigger mess 13:58:45 threads and IRC don't get along 13:59:15 <09gammafunk> threads and discord don't seem to get along very well either 13:59:58 matrix threads seem to work fairly well as long as they stay on matrix 14:00:23 but they're still an experimental feature and I don't see them used very much 14:44:08 <10PleasingFungus> kate: automapping temple also simplifies the rules around exploration piety from a player perspective, which is nice 14:45:03 <10PleasingFungus> it’d be super nice if replies to foo prepended “foo: “ when bridging to irc - currently i’m doing that manually 14:51:20 <05kate> yeah - although that does get fiddly if applying it to Gauntlet as yermak mentioned, which would be nice to be able to do too 15:15:59 <10PleasingFungus> hm, seems ok to just not have explore piety there either, for consistency? 15:16:27 <10PleasingFungus> seems minor 15:16:28 <05kate> would have to i think yeah, which is probably okay 15:44:09 <08nicolae> now my secret strat of using temple and gauntlet to get to max explore piety will be nerfed 😔 15:48:22 <12ebering> temple was nerfed long ago 😉 16:08:38 IRCv3 has (a draft for) replying support, dangit. 16:09:44 Re tmuts: I wonder if something that's less "total change of self" to "change of limbs" would be interesting. Maybe something that changes your arms into a (randomly chosen?) physical appendage that you can whack things with, and that whacking would give various effects that you don't otherwise often see in melee. 16:10:28 E.g., knockback, status effects (since it's magic!), maybe some other things? 16:11:29 Could also perhaps have tmuts that are more situational and not necessarily good for combat. Something like a small bird or mammal that can run away quickly but can barely attack, melds armor, and has low AC. 16:11:48 <08nicolae> variations on the basic Beastly Appendage formula aren't super exciting but i suppose there's plenty of room for variety 16:12:04 Yeah, that's what I was reticent about 16:12:21 Though turning your entire arm into a giant pillar of stone that you slam bad things with is kinda funny 16:14:06 Or other things—digging like Fo's, jumping like Ba's perhaps? That feels a bit lazy, though. 16:14:20 <10PleasingFungus> i think the key is figuring out (a) what you want the tmuter playstyle to be, (b) what the ‘mechanical identity’ of the tmut school should be, and (c) how to make meaningful tactical tradeoffs and decisions around form choices 16:15:06 <08nicolae> and for the irc crowd: 16:15:08 <08nicolae> 🤔 16:15:59 In my opinionated opinion—I think tmuters should be able to "change" their body to deal with a large number of situations, er, situationally. This can be done through form changes (ice form, statue form) or aux changes (blade hands, beastly pokey things), but I wonder if this is too limited. 16:18:45 Should there be something more than just physical changing that tmuters can do? Should they be able to do stuff like mess with their internal chemistry, and do things like grant themselves resists while gaining vulnerabilities (though this seems possibly powerful and hard to use UX-wise)? What about stuff targeted at other things—should tmuters be able to transmute /other/ things (though this could have some overlap with hexes)? For 16:18:45 instance, being able to root a bad guy in place if they're fast, or make something unable to fly. (There's probably more good ideas in that area.) 16:18:52 <08nicolae> well, i think the core mechanical theme of tmut so far is "getting good at punchin", or at least that seems to be the core of the tmut playstyle as it exists, with some outliers for other playstyles (passwall, sting, irradiate) 16:19:44 <08nicolae> along with the "change in oneself" mechanic/flavoring/etc 16:19:49 Yeah, I agree that punching things in different ways with different "tools" is funner and much more unique compared to things like "weaken bad guy" or "throw magic projectile at bad guy". 16:20:35 (By "funner" I mean "different and fun", the other things in that comparison are also fun.) 16:27:59 <08nicolae> Suppression: suppress all non-species-innate muts, good or bad, but you get dinged with contam after the effect wears off so you don't want to do it constantly, just before a fight where you're worried your bad muts will make things worse 16:29:42 <10PleasingFungus> re playstyle (a): currently, as nicolae said, a 'transmuter' is a character who mainly kills things with UC + forms. Do we want to keep it that way, or do we want to broaden the concept - allowing 'transmuters' to mainly kill things with forms + weapons, forms + spells, UC + non-form spells..? 16:30:46 <08nicolae> on the other hand, suppression seems like it'd be one of those no-brainers to pick up for anybody who gets any dogshit muts 16:30:51 <08nicolae> make it level 9. there we go. 16:31:20 <10PleasingFungus> re (b) mechanical identity: the tmut school is currently 'forms', 'contamination/mutation' (irrad, yara's), and 'misc' (sting, etc). Is this what we want? is there another set of effects that it'd make sense for tmut to have? 16:32:42 <10PleasingFungus> re (c) meaningful tactical tradeoffs/choices re forms: this is just super hard. it's just a really really hard problem. we basically gave up on almost exactly this problem with charms and axed the school. i do not have easy answers for this with tmut - i'm hopeful that it's solvable but it'll take some real big brain thinking if so. 16:33:34 <10PleasingFungus> i do think that the key is looking for forms whose utility depends less on your character and more on the challenge at hand: the terrain, the enemies, etc. "positional forms", as it were. 16:33:59 <10PleasingFungus> going back to nicolae's suppression or 'big brain' form, both of those are pretty much always going to be good for characters who want them. they aren't really situational. 16:34:04 <08nicolae> well, one tradeoff so far with forms is that, positionally speaking, you gotta get all up in there 16:34:12 -!- Yermak_ is now known as Yermak 16:34:13 <10PleasingFungus> that's not a tradeoff between forms, right? 16:34:20 <10PleasingFungus> that's a tradeoff of forms vs ranged combat 16:34:23 <08nicolae> ah, you mean between forms rather than with forms vs. nonforms 16:34:25 <10PleasingFungus> yes 16:34:29 <08nicolae> yeah 16:34:42 "gotta get 'em all!" 16:34:42 <12ebering> statue form is the most positional of the forms atm 16:34:47 <12ebering> because of the speed impact 16:34:48 <08nicolae> grid bug form, you can't move diagonally 16:34:55 <3 statue form 16:35:01 <10PleasingFungus> actually the most positional form is tree form, followed by fungus form 16:35:03 <10PleasingFungus> but statue form is good too 16:35:04 <10PleasingFungus> 😛 16:35:11 <10PleasingFungus> (j/k... or am i.................) 16:35:22 well, you are biased 16:35:25 <08nicolae> some kind of form that has to cling to solid surfaces so you have to be next to a wall, although i guess that just makes it hallway time 16:35:40 <12ebering> ok yes tree and fungus also very positional 16:35:42 <08nicolae> Doorform. You pretend to be a door, but you have to be in an existing doorway 16:35:47 <10PleasingFungus> i've been thinking more about the opposite - a form that is stronger in open space 16:35:52 Weeping Willow form. Needs lots of open space—HECK 16:35:57 nerd 16:35:57 <10PleasingFungus> haha 16:36:11 <08nicolae> give it reachcleave 16:36:18 <10PleasingFungus> spicy 16:36:20 <10PleasingFungus> could work 16:36:32 I was thinking a thing where you'd whip things around you all at once, so yea 16:36:32 <10PleasingFungus> not exactly what i meant, but could work somewhere 16:36:34 <10PleasingFungus> (i meant more like airstrike) 16:37:00 <10PleasingFungus> it's ok to have one or two forms that are generically good, but only if they're in an environment where you're choosing between them as a 'baseline OK state' and other forms which are situationally better 16:37:03 <08nicolae> yeah i figured but i was having a hard time thinking of an effect beyond "when you hit a monster it does extra based on how many open spaces there are" 16:37:23 Or just have a requirement of casting be you have 8 open spaces 16:37:32 and do something fun from there 16:37:38 <12ebering> large form 16:37:41 <12ebering> you are large 16:37:53 <12ebering> you cannot enter cells that have < 7 empty adjacent cells 16:37:58 <08nicolae> Blast Furnace Form, your punches do more powerful fire damage based on how much air you can draw in from around you 16:37:58 <12ebering> fill in the benefits here 16:38:04 <10PleasingFungus> oh, benefits are easy 16:38:07 <10PleasingFungus> anyone can do benefits. 16:38:09 <12ebering> exactly 16:38:25 <08nicolae> even your friends can do benefits, i'm told 16:38:40 <10PleasingFungus> anyway large form looks like this 16:38:41 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/991804921831772160/unknown.png 16:38:51 yup 16:39:58 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-746-g1f4f75ee32: feat: add random2min and random2max 10(2 hours ago, 2 files, 20+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1f4f75ee32ef 16:39:58 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-747-g1659c76842: feat: enable small Temples 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 8+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1659c768426c 16:39:58 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-748-g184eed5aab: feat: rare low-altar count temples 10(48 minutes ago, 1 file, 54+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/184eed5aabf5 16:40:45 <08nicolae> hell yeah, soon i can get started on making a PR for my tembles 16:40:48 <10PleasingFungus> my vision of transmuter has them advancing through a series of situational forms, where by default you'll be using the highest level form you currently have castable, but you'll often want to use a form that's a level or two lower depending on context. 16:41:15 <08nicolae> i guess the trick is deducing what are the various contexts one might find oneself in 16:41:44 <10PleasingFungus> but (i) that depends on designing a bunch of interestingly situational spells (maybe using variants - a lesser & more dramatic version of 'open space form' at different levels, for example), and (ii) doesn't yet account for the discussion of off-ramps and transition between playstyles 16:42:05 <08nicolae> what sort of things do you mean by off ramp 16:42:16 <10PleasingFungus> can we make it easier for a tmuter to pivot to non-tmutations & vice versa depending on what they find, can we blur the playstyles together and offer more ways to synergize and blend options 16:42:19 <08nicolae> i mean i get the general gist but it'd be good to have more Game Design Theory details 16:42:20 <10PleasingFungus> uh, by off ramp i mean, like 16:43:16 <10PleasingFungus> you're a wu jian axe dude, waltzin into lair with a war axe. weapon pickups ain't goin so hot. hey! you find an eveningstar! time to pivot, using crosstraining to make the switch easier 16:43:18 <10PleasingFungus> or 16:44:18 <10PleasingFungus> you're a cool venom mage, blastin stuff with your starting spells. you enter orc and find LRD and iron shot. hey, time to use that conjuration & spellcasting skill you already trained up to make it easier to switch over to earth magic 16:44:36 <10PleasingFungus> these ways to adapt to what you find in a less painful way than 'starting from 0' 16:45:19 <08nicolae> so in the example of tmut it'd be like... "well my forms aren't cutting it and dragon/storm form ain't showin up, time to grab a weapon or start blastin" and the offramp would be some way for tmut to have already encouraged you to train a little in a weapon skill or a blasty spell school? 16:45:19 <10PleasingFungus> closer to the latter 16:45:52 <08nicolae> well it kind of already has that since a lot of tmut spells have overlap with an elemental school 16:45:55 <10PleasingFungus> maybe you have a form that works well with UC and with weapons, so you're better off than someone who has 0 weapon skill and nothin else going for em 16:46:00 <10PleasingFungus> the problem is uh 16:46:14 <08nicolae> but maybe some kind of conjuration/tmut spell that's still a form rather than a blast 16:46:16 <10PleasingFungus> tmut sort of has a whole bunch of requirements to work 16:46:25 <09hellmonk> Is that no god temple supposed to have 200k weight 16:46:28 <10PleasingFungus> lol 16:46:35 <08nicolae> sure, let's do it. fuck 'em 16:46:52 <09hellmonk> I mean it only affects rare temple weight but still 16:47:07 <10PleasingFungus> assume that's left in from debug 16:47:07 <12ebering> oh lol 16:47:14 <12ebering> ty hellmo 16:47:18 <08nicolae> wait, hold up. you can have a temple_overflow_no_god tag? what does that do in practice 16:47:28 <12ebering> in practice it does nothing 16:47:31 <08nicolae> damn 16:47:35 <12ebering> it tricks the validator into not checking for altars 16:47:43 <12ebering> it is a hack and my fellow devs might frown at it 16:47:47 <10PleasingFungus> with a tmuter, you gotta get your str for damage, your dex for bein alive - you don't generally end up with that much int, since you don't care about power on forms (just castability) and you're gonna be in light armour when out of forms anyway. That puts you in a pretty bad position to switch into playstyles which do care about int (blastin) 16:47:50 <10PleasingFungus> i love hacks 16:48:23 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-749-g0912897232: fix: remove a debug weight (hellmonk) 10(12 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/09128972320a 16:48:27 <08nicolae> i learn so much about game design from these discussions 🤔 16:48:57 <09hellmonk> Probably need "offramps" in the actual tm start book then, lets you have options before most stat points are chosen 16:49:28 <10PleasingFungus> hm, but you probably only want to bail if you aren't finding more forms by the time your start forms are falling behind (lairish), right? 16:49:34 <10PleasingFungus> maybe that's what you mean, sorry 16:50:06 <10PleasingFungus> also, this goes back to what gamma was saying earlier about summons, actually. summoning is also a very specific playstyle, but it's happy dumping all its stats into int, so it's easier for them to switch over to other magic if appropriate 16:50:12 <09hellmonk> I'd rather think of it like ee where the book supports stabbing as well as blasting, even if you don't end up doing both to any appreciable extent long term 16:50:42 <10PleasingFungus> i like the sound of that. so tmuter start would support UC forms and..? 16:50:46 <08nicolae> so maybe something like a conj/tmut starting form, or a form that doesn't really require much str or dex for doing murders properly (so you have some more leeway towards statting up int) 16:50:46 <10PleasingFungus> weapon forms? 16:51:11 <09hellmonk> idk, just in general think that's the correct way to do it 16:51:36 <10PleasingFungus> i like the idea of having another weapon-using form at a lowish level because, as long as it's an interesting and situational form as described above, it also makes it easier for non-tmuters to slide into the school 16:51:40 <08nicolae> based on what you said earlier about stats, offramping into weapons might be easier than offramping into blastin', so maybe if there was a form that benefited from weapon use somehow that would work 16:52:19 <09hellmonk> Give blade hands dexscaling 16:52:22 <09hellmonk> ppog 16:52:48 <08nicolae> Third Hand, when you've got Third Hand Form up you can deal damage with a weapon AND still do a UC punch with your new hand 16:53:17 <10PleasingFungus> blade = dex 16:53:19 <08nicolae> but if you don't have a weapon it's not much better than just bare hand punchin 16:53:20 <10PleasingFungus> checks out 16:53:21 <05kate> statue form is already theoretically supposed to be the form that benefits from weapon use 16:53:40 <10PleasingFungus> sure, i mentioned that i think? or maybe i just thought it loudly 16:53:45 <10PleasingFungus> but it’s sort of too late 16:54:15 <10PleasingFungus> if you find statue form, you don't need to worry about transitioning out of UC, right? you're set 16:54:59 <10PleasingFungus> (it does let you transition into tmut, and does a good job of it - maybe that's what you meant?) 16:55:27 <05kate> presumably it could work in the other direction in theory yeah, i can't imagine actually doing that currently but i'm sure there's some theoretical world where the numbers are different and that's more reasonable 16:56:22 <09hellmonk> Probably some balance point where going ice form into stuff like fcloud makes sense as a transitional point 16:56:51 <08nicolae> Autonomous Bonk Form: when you're holding a weapon in this form, if you do something besides attack, there is a chance that your new arm/tentacle/whatever will swing at an adjacent monster anyway with your main weapon, so you'd need skills for it. although that's stepping on wu jian 16:56:51 <09hellmonk> The low spell power midrange caster grindset 16:56:58 <10PleasingFungus> some ice stuff cares less about power (like fcloud) so could work, yeah 16:57:14 <10PleasingFungus> here's my old notes: Forms as ‘stances’? More situational, but not to the point of being fiddly Right level of specificity: ‘good against ranged attacks’? ‘Good against single enemies’ ‘Good against fast enemies’ ‘Good against large groups’ ‘Good against the undead’ (??) ‘Good in open spaces’? 16:57:30 <09hellmonk> I'm going to do a big writeup on spell school crossover tonight, idk if any insights will pop out or not 16:57:45 <10PleasingFungus> i approve 16:58:27 <08nicolae> "good against single enemies" might be something like a juggernaut or dark maul, where it takes you a while to wind up but the punch is devastating, but it's more of a problem if you're having to tank a half dozen monsters during the wind up 17:00:40 <10PleasingFungus> note that the delay on dark maul etc is after the attack, not before. but you could do it either way 17:04:35 <08nicolae> i guess whichever is easier to implement ¯_(ツ)_/¯ 17:04:59 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-748-g184eed5aab (34) 17:05:17 <08nicolae> combine "good in open spaces" and "good against large groups", form that gets better the more monsters you can see 17:07:01 Lightli (L1 MDMo) (D:1) 17:07:14 Lightli (L1 MDWn) (D:1) 17:07:53 Lightli (L1 MDCK) (D:1) 17:16:33 Lightli (L1 HDFi) (D:1) 17:17:40 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-749-g0912897232 (34) 17:22:04 !crashlog Lightli 17:22:05 157. Lightli, XL1 HDFi, T:0 (milestone): https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/Lightli/crash-Lightli-20220629-211632.txt 17:23:26 0.10? 17:32:03 03nicolae02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-750-g8e6dc78163: vaults: various designs for mini_features.des 10(4 weeks ago, 1 file, 131+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8e6dc78163f8 17:32:03 03nicolae02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-751-g26dd769911: vaults: a simple generic overflow altar 10(4 weeks ago, 1 file, 15+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/26dd76991162 17:32:03 03nicolae02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-752-gff91a8ed75: vaults: two new theme shops 10(4 weeks ago, 1 file, 34+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ff91a8ed75f9 17:32:03 03nicolae02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-753-gb7bb9d756e: vaults: some abstract decor vaults to float.des 10(4 weeks ago, 1 file, 127+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b7bb9d756ed7 17:47:33 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-753-gb7bb9d756e (34) 17:50:56 btw I love ebering_the_none_and_only. That's easily one of my favorite vaults I've ever seen added. 18:07:30 <06advil> Are you trying to sneak in dual wielding form 18:13:34 <08nicolae> no, you could only wield one weapon or a weapon and shield as usual, the idea was just that you would get an "aux attack" that had the same power as your regular UC strike 18:15:17 <08nicolae> i was trying to think of a form that would benefit from weapons skill without just being the same as statue form's "+50% for all melee damage" 18:23:13 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.29-a0-753-gb7bb9d756e (34) 18:46:40 !source spell.school 18:46:41 Can't find spell.school. 18:46:44 hmm 18:47:03 how would i find if thhere is a function to convert spell.school to you.skill? 18:47:44 or more specfic, find the aptitude of a player for spell x 18:48:29 !source spell 18:48:30 Can't find spell. 19:09:27 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-754-ga47bfe3f80: feat: don't fire harpoon shots if a melee attack is possible 10(41 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a47bfe3f802f 19:09:27 03RojjaCebolla02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-755-g122d04a4e0: feat: new monser "Starflower", an abyssal oklob 10(4 months ago, 14 files, 50+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/122d04a4e024 19:09:27 03RojjaCebolla02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-756-g20e0cd1ebb: vaults: a few maps featuring starflowers 10(4 months ago, 1 file, 131+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/20e0cd1ebb09 19:09:38 <12ebering> oop, new monser typo snuck in 19:09:38 <12ebering> rip 19:09:42 <12ebering> permanent history now 19:12:01 <12ebering> @nicolae new monster just dropped 19:14:24 <08nicolae> hell yeah, time to put them in lair 19:35:49 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-756-g20e0cd1ebb (34) 19:46:22 <10PleasingFungus> we do have an abyssal lair end… 20:01:55 <08nicolae> perfect time to have just dropped the mountain boots into trunk 20:32:53 <09gammafunk> cpp for (int i = 0; i < (rolls -1); i++) should simply be cpp for (int i = 0; i < rolls - 1; i++) 20:32:57 <09gammafunk> @ebering no? 20:34:14 <09gammafunk> oh dang 20:34:39 <09gammafunk> https://crawl.dcss.io/crawl/morgue/qwqw/morgue-qwqw-20220629-192016.txt best 0.29-a qw result for extended so far 20:34:42 <09gammafunk> shame I missed this run 20:34:58 <09gammafunk> that is a nice cpa 22:14:46 <09hellmonk> Ok I think I have my big multischool spells takeaways. 22:15:20 <08nicolae> hell yes, lay it on me 22:15:23 <08nicolae> and on us 22:15:24 <08nicolae> but also me 22:17:24 please put it on nicolae while everyone spectates 22:19:30 <09hellmonk> Number 1: almost exactly 50% of player castable spells are 2 or 3 schools, but this number is actually higher in the mid level 4-6 range than at the edges. This is good, since extra schools at low levels tend to just be an early xp sink for success rate/power rather than a distinct "hybridization" point, and extra schools at high level tend to just be an xp sink for success rate because you can already just win the game but are 22:19:30 getting firestorm to go do a zig or whatever. 22:25:26 <09hellmonk> Number 2: Naively, Poison has the highest percentage of multischool spells, followed by Conjurations and Fire. Translocations, Summoning, and Necromancy are lowest. This is sort of mitigated by the fact that poison magic is the smallest spell school and that more than half its spells are also transmutations; it has a level 4 triple school spell with necro and air, a level 3 triple school with fire and tmut, a level 2 spell with 22:25:26 air, and a whole lot of tmut spells. Fire is in a similar boat; aside from the seven conjurations it has it's got ignite poison and inner flame, that's it. So their multischool options aren't actually that diverse. 22:26:49 <09hellmonk> Meanwhile, Summoning actually does cross over with everything besides poison, fire, and transmutations between level 4 and 7, so the raw statistics are kind of misleading/ 22:30:04 <09hellmonk> Necromancy likewise has a multischool spell with everything except conjurations, fire, and translocations - it's actually the only spell not to have a dual school with conj if I'm not mistaken. 22:37:37 <09hellmonk> Conclusions: I think crawl is probably in a better place than I thought it would be when I started looking at this. There are still a ridiculous number of conjurations and the number of hexes / summons is probably also too high whereas poison magic is very thin, but overall there's a lot of good stuff. Two big places for improvement would be giving fire magic some stuff that isn't conjurations and poison magic some stuff that isn't 22:37:37 transmutations. Translocations is also mostly self contained but that might actually be okay. This kind of analysis does gloss all the other stuff that contributes to certain characters wanting some spells over others ofc, like animate armour requiring decent base ac to do anything or manifold assault being good with forms. 22:40:03 <10PleasingFungus> cool analysis! 22:40:19 <10PleasingFungus> re too many hexes, i’ve been thinking about fulm prism 22:40:50 <10PleasingFungus> which, as many have noted, has no real reason to be a hex 22:41:22 <09hellmonk> ya, hexes is the 2nd most common school atm, assuming i didnt miscount 22:41:28 <09hellmonk> it's like 9 behind conjurations though 22:42:27 <10PleasingFungus> i’m a lil surprised we have that many hexes 22:42:37 <10PleasingFungus> ??spells by school[hex 22:42:38 <04Cerebot> list_of_spells_by_school[6/12]: Hexes: corona, confusing touch, ensorcelled hibernation, slow, gell's gravitas, tukima's dance, dazzling flash, inner flame, cause fear, leda's liquefaction, fulminant prism, metabolic englaciation, yara's violent unravelling, silence, invisibility, discord, enfeeble 22:42:52 <10PleasingFungus> huh 22:42:53 <08nicolae> well we already cut corona, so we're making progress 22:43:16 <10PleasingFungus> unfortunately we added anguish 22:43:23 <09hellmonk> yeah but the list is missing pproj and anguish 22:43:34 <09hellmonk> also gells isnt a hex anymore 22:45:04 <09hellmonk> also, there's some additional concern about spells in starting kits since they tend to push characters in a direction more strongly (bc likely to not have anything better for a while), so need to be careful not to have too much multischool overlap in the same kit 22:45:28 <09hellmonk> otherwise you get old conjurer that always went ice/air for fcloud or whatever 22:46:08 <08nicolae> i noticed that half the venom mage starting spells are air 22:46:46 <12ebering> poison gas / alchemey themes 22:47:06 <08nicolae> oh i know why it's there, p vapors and meph are both clouds, but it did make me go 🤔 22:47:12 <09hellmonk> that hex spell list is also missing ggolem, mana viper 22:55:07 <10PleasingFungus> dang 22:55:26