01:27:29 <09gammafunk> ok, think I'll just delete them, and we can go with the idea of saving the logs on a by-request basis 01:35:00 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-716-gf28ee254f9 (34) 01:41:42 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-717-g6dac4ea423: Don't give old gnolls huge Ranged Weapons skill (CarefulOdds) 10(33 seconds ago, 1 file, 7+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6dac4ea4238f 01:47:35 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-717-g6dac4ea423 (34) 01:57:07 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-717-g6dac4ea423 02:35:13 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 02:54:23 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-717-g6dac4ea423 03:17:56 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.29-a0-717-g6dac4ea423 (34) 03:47:01 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4753-g3cc4eb4eda 03:54:34 When I log in I get a screen like I quaffed !experience 03:54:39 but I'm a gnoll 03:55:05 I tried picking one but then it says my game crashes 04:58:30 !won . Gn-- 04:58:31 jfcaron (Gn--) has won 10 times in 57 games (17.54%): 2xGnWz 1xGnEn 1xGnFi 1xGnGl 1xGnNe 1xGnSk 1xGnSu 1xGnWn 1xGnWr 05:03:29 !polytheist . 05:03:51 Unwon gods for jfcaron: Dithmenos, Fedhas, Jiyva, Nemelex Xobeh, Xom, Zin 06:06:26 <13Sastreii> runed doors and gates 06:06:27 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/990558649661407313/Schermata_2022-06-26_alle_11.52.28.png 06:06:27 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/990558649862737930/runed_doors.zip 06:06:59 <13Sastreii> should be a total of 14 files 06:13:06 <09gammafunk> awesome, thanks! 06:21:56 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4753-g3cc4eb4eda 07:39:36 -!- Yermak_ is now known as Yermak 08:29:42 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.29-a0-717-g6dac4ea (34) 09:40:42 -!- mhcerri3 is now known as mhcerri 10:25:29 Hi, I've encountered a strange problem after accepting an update in trunk: I have a gnoll character, when entering the game, I'm taken to the skills selection screen saying I've gained a great amount of XP, but the window refuses to do anything (presumably because it's a gnoll), and escape doesn't close the window, so the game seems effectively locked. I'm on a web-based chat for a quick connect, this is actuall "svendre", same name in crawl. 10:26:11 I hadn't quaffed any potions of xp or anything like that prior to the game timing out last night. 10:26:13 -!- mhcerri6 is now known as mhcerri 10:26:49 Oh, sorry and the game is on CAO 10:29:01 looks like that was fixed already but the machine you're on needs a rebuild 10:29:10 [26 05:41:46] PleasingFungus * 0.29-a0-717-g6dac4ea423: Don't give old gnolls huge Ranged Weapons skill (CarefulOdds) (33 seconds ago, 1 file, 7+ 2-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6dac4ea4238f 10:29:36 that or above fix is itself broken… 10:29:48 <03wheals> I'm not sure that reloading it will fix it once you loaded on a broken version 10:30:07 ah so gnolls ranged skill level combined with infinite ammo has been deemed too powerful? 10:30:27 Is it dropping down in aptitude or something like that, the way spells went to +6 awhile back? 10:30:59 <03wheals> no, it's about transferring from old games to new games 10:31:40 I see. Well, I can play 0.28 or delete it I guess, but it's a level 27 with 9 runes... do you think if I wait for the next version to be pushed that it might resolve the issue so that the character can continue? 10:31:44 <03wheals> non gnolls get a skill equal to all their old ranged skills combined (now that there are no bows/xbows/slings skills), but that doesn't make sense for gnolls 10:32:18 oh, wow... bigger change than I realized! 10:33:32 <03wheals> I'm at work right now but hopefully someone can fix the underlying issue (that getting a bunch of skill points can hang the skill menu) and that will be up on CAO in a day or so 10:34:17 no problem, I can start a new character on a different version or server for now - I appreciate the response greatly. 10:34:37 It's Sunday here - no work today.. 10:37:13 <10PleasingFungus> seems like a bug in my last commit, sorry 10:37:31 <10PleasingFungus> currently on mobile 10:38:58 <10PleasingFungus> revert or manual cleanup of skills might help 10:39:05 <10PleasingFungus> alternatively, changing fixup skills 10:39:10 <10PleasingFungus> that’s the problem call 10:39:25 until you all are paid, I'm not going to try and complain to customer support ;) these seem like some pretty interesting changes....I'm glad that xp was added back to abyss, I like the new ammo system 10:40:42 <10PleasingFungus> 🙂 10:40:49 that 1/3rd chance to hit and no monster energy, man that's a big one, that just has a casual note.... I can't decide about it and what it supports. I thought initially it was a boon to melee (and not good for ranged), but I'm really not sure. Monster gets next to you in early game, it's now a potential death sentence. 10:42:16 I think it seems to favor a ranged opening game until melee is further developed.... makes warpers quite a bit better... 10:43:16 I've found myself (when playing conservatively) avoiding monsters getting 1 square away, but since you can still lure until they get to that point, it's like lure +1 to the stairs, going down one turn sooner and more back and forth between sets of stairs. 10:44:56 it definiately makes later game melee (and in general) harder, because you don't have the option to reposition into narrow corridors so easily without extra pain... if it's intended to slow down melee, then that's probably a good change. 10:51:45 <10PleasingFungus> it’s mainly intended to remove random energy, since that system had various other properties, but agreed it’s also weakened melee 10:52:02 <10PleasingFungus> i’m not particularly happy about that - still thinking about potential changes 10:55:36 so, the riddle then is how to get rid of random energy while not creating a game of endless pillar dancing 10:55:58 seems to me the answer is not-random energy, aka stamina 10:57:47 something based on strength, parallel with mana, but is drained when moving with a monster in LOS, and if it runs out for either monster or player, they then move at 2/3rds their normal speed or something like that. 10:58:42 I do like the idea of "monsters" and "players" sharing the same physical laws of the universe, at least with something as basic as movement/speed. 11:00:51 Cataclysm has this type of a system, if you are heavily loaded down, your stamina runs out more quickly - so it becomes a gambit, wear heavy armor and stand and fight else running will just drain you down and limit how long you can effectively fight, or wear very light stuff and be more mobile, but at the risk of taking critical blows if you don't evade. 11:01:24 I wouldn't like to see the full weight/limits system returned, that is tedious, but maybe it could be based on the body armour type worn 11:03:44 most D1 characters won't be in plate mail or have fully developed str yet (well ok almost all), they'll still be working their way up the ranks in body armour levels, so with this system given that early monsters also don't hit super hard, it would make the opening game less punishing (permitting people the chance to run away more easily) but weight in more as a factor for games further along where the player is decked out--but has more tools to survive. 11:04:38 just a few thoughts anyhow, sorry don't mean to spam the channel :D I guess I'm chatty this morning. 11:05:59 <10PleasingFungus> no worries 11:06:39 <10PleasingFungus> i’m not sure that tracking stamina would be very fun 11:06:47 <10PleasingFungus> it seems quite complex 11:06:47 it would also bring much needed balance between casting and melee/ranged (that doesn't suffer loss of mana). I gather the reasoning is that mana should be super powerful one-shot but it runs out, but in practice, the xp required to train functional spells is pretty high, then you hit resists and such where melee (vorpal) just doesn't suffer in the same way. 11:08:36 If there is an argument to be made that "HP" is the mana of melee, in practice I see a lot of situations where enemy ranged is just negated by careful placement, hiding around corners and waiting for stuff to walk up to you, and in some cases it's extra unfair like centaurs that won't use their bow because they're at range 1. 11:10:50 so ranged, mana has to deal so much damage it kills before you get at melee range (if it's focused), and runs out of gas and becomes helpless nearly. Melee, with high AC/shields etc, by contrast can sit there and pound away for 10,000 turns endlessly. Maybe a stamina feature could be difficult, but maybe there's also a more simplified model that isn't too unreasonable. 11:11:46 that being, you just move slower, or don't hit as hard, because stamina ran out - then there's no need to micromanage it like if it was completely debilitating 11:12:42 it could even be a -tired flag, with no stamina numbers to track or compute, a condition that occurs as a result of "too much pillar dancing" or too much melee of 1,000 enemies in a corridor. 11:14:40 svendre_, if it also applies to monsters, you get strats where players try to exhaust a monster's stamina? 11:15:17 that is a good point, I was thinking that already, I don't have an answer yet - but am further considering 11:16:05 maybe you get noisier as you get tired (likewise monsters), which brings fresher monsters who then push their way in front of the tired ones 11:16:52 even Qazlal's noise has limited range, though 11:17:39 <10PleasingFungus> various people want monsters to shout if they “detect that you’re pillar dancing” (whatever that means) 11:17:52 <10PleasingFungus> but that will often do nothing, yeah 11:18:14 <10PleasingFungus> it’s not super rare for there to only be one monster nearby 11:18:20 <10PleasingFungus> esp if you’re playing well 11:20:57 <10PleasingFungus> the fundamental problem is the lack of meaningful time pressure. but that’s hard to fix without big changes to eg dungeon generation 11:24:29 On the simpler side of things, though this still has the counting issue, you could maybe do something like "if the equal speed monster chases the player for X turns, a one-space gap is created" 11:25:33 I can't think of an eloquent solution to that, but monsters already don't "run out of mana", so it stands to reason the easiest solution is that they don't get tired. This would reduce calculations load a lot also for practical reasons. It's not a perfect everything-is-equal solution, but I think it might be a better solution than the 1/3rd chance to be hit while moving away from a monster moving at the same speed as you. 11:26:02 <10PleasingFungus> perryprog: is that just a more complex way of making all monsters slow? 11:26:41 Umm... Yes 11:27:03 The problem exists currently also, if fights can be 1 on 1 and the player has an endless path to stay out of melee range with a monster, they can whittle a single opponent down. This could be done by stair dancing, where you try for hard hitting ranged shots and reset the fight if it doesn't work in your favor. The problem doesn't really exist with multiple enemies, and retreating with multiple enemies generally comes at the cost of incurring additional 11:27:56 ..additional risk from other vectors, compounding the risk. 11:28:06 game design hard, yo 11:28:12 agreed 11:32:11 restoring random spawns would also fix that :D I know.. big change back..just saying... because then too much luring/backing away to tire a monster could result in a pile of fresh not tired monsters in your escape path while you are nearly tired.... I think monsters don't tire is probably better 11:34:24 or another option, tired monsters (pissed off) call for reinforcements, rather than random spawns. It wouldn't be a great way to milk xp because the condition under which they would call for reinforcements would almost always be at a time when the player is nearly tired themselves, just a few steps ahead of the monster they are kiting. 11:35:32 you also have to make using stairs while -tired not an option 11:37:19 that would prevent deliberate efforts to milk xp and probably generally make the game better, limiting the long runs back to the stairs for every fight (the ranged multiple stairs dance tactic I previously mentioned) 11:37:57 ultimately the turn count kill switch is the failsafe for extreme cases of attempted abuse 11:39:51 so, to reiterate the idea: body armor type str = chances to gain a -tired flag on melee attack or movement, and -tired = 1/3rd movement speed penalty, 1/3rd damage penalty.. maybe 1/3rd to hit penalty, and you cannot use stairs. Wears off with resting a few turns. 11:42:03 (movement with monster in LOS, not all movement) not all movemet 11:43:55 ...or monsters just don't get a -tired flag, ever. 11:48:20 the characters that would stand to benefit the most from any such extended tactics to circumvent the anti-pillar dance/luring tactics use Dex for ranged and Int for spells currently, so Str being the main factor doesn't help them. 11:53:23 as for extra complexity, it's not over the top - and oversimplifying the game mechanics comes with it's own problems... take for instance, when daggers used str for damage, I sure am glad to see more sophistication that dex is now used once again, not the str-weights system which was cool but granted it didn't have enough impact and it was harder to understand. 11:54:09 if the added complexity results in a more tactical and interesting game, it's a good thing 12:07:57 alright, well in closing - if anyone's interested at all in the idea for trunk only without a firm decision, I'll playtest it with the most despicable tactics in an attempt to abuse it that I can, and I know some pretty bad things. I'll leave the channel some peace now :D thx for hearing me out. 14:59:27 samgaumpmail (L24 SpEn) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Zot:5) 15:20:46 <06advil> !crashlog 15:20:48 <04Cerebot> 24474. samgaumpmail, XL24 SpEn, T:133795 (milestone): https://cbro.berotato.org/morgue/samgaumpmail/crash-samgaumpmail-20220626-185926.txt 15:32:27 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-718-g365da2f8ac: Fixup a gnoll save compat crash? 10(19 seconds ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/365da2f8ac5d 15:38:49 <06advil> was just looking at that 15:38:55 <06advil> very weird side-effect-y crash 15:38:58 <06advil> also webtiles specific 15:41:17 <06advil> I think that fix is broadly right at least, doing UI (which fixup_skills can trigger) while the player is half-loaded is pretty risky 15:42:12 <06advil> though, I still haven't fully grasped why that popup is triggered for this specific upgrade, shouldn't it just apply any extra skill evenly for gn? 15:45:43 <10PleasingFungus> it doesn’t know they’re gnolls 15:45:48 <10PleasingFungus> muts aren’t loaded 15:46:19 <10PleasingFungus> i’m still very nervous about the fixup skills call 15:47:34 <06advil> I realize this is contrary to my own design principles but probably conditioning it on species would be fine 15:47:47 <10PleasingFungus> i considered that 15:47:57 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-718-g365da2f8ac (34) 15:47:58 <10PleasingFungus> but i was nervous about further downstream calls 15:48:09 <10PleasingFungus> easier to just do the fixup later 15:48:24 <10PleasingFungus> but better yet would be to do a more minimal fixup 15:48:31 <10PleasingFungus> rather than this full call 15:48:45 <06advil> yeah, I think fixup should be called later either way if it's called, but possibly fixup itself should never pop up skill ui for gn 15:49:16 <10PleasingFungus> possible 15:50:53 <06advil> heh, in fact fixup_skills already does what I am suggesting, but it checks the muts 15:51:44 <06advil> though, I wonder what does happen to the xp for a gn, at a glance it looks like it goes away 15:51:50 <06advil> maybe that's fine 15:51:59 <10PleasingFungus> yes, seems right 15:59:59 <06advil> hm, so fixup_skills is always called in post_init 16:00:07 <06advil> _post_init that is 16:00:13 <06advil> and I think that's a lot safer here 16:00:27 <06advil> so maybe the tags.cc call isn't really necessary? 16:02:07 <06advil> and it definitely shouldn't be called in that place in a way that will trigger the skill menu for non-gn -- the crash is really because any popup that early forces webtiles send_player which can be pretty unpredictable if the player is partly loaded 16:03:01 <06advil> so the mut check dodges it more than anything 16:08:13 <10PleasingFungus> oh, skipping the call entirely sounds great 16:09:41 <10PleasingFungus> do you mind changing that? 16:12:04 <06advil> sure, though I will only test v quickly 16:15:22 <06advil> seems to do what it should (assuming skill cost applies, e.g. 15+5+5 = 16.9) 16:17:28 03advil02 07* 0.29-a0-719-g0fec994a2d: fix: remove an unnecessary `fixup_skills` call 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0fec994a2d97 16:17:41 <06advil> surprised we haven't had anyone asking about that, it took me a second or two 16:18:15 <10PleasingFungus> idk how many non gn are training multiple ranged weapon skills? 16:18:19 <06advil> yeah, fair 16:25:18 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.29-a0-719-g0fec994 (34) 16:33:06 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-719-g0fec994a2d (34) 18:24:03 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.29-a0-719-g0fec994a2d (34) 19:32:55 03gammafunk02 07* 0.29-a0-720-gac13c76575: feat: New runed door tiles from Sastreii 10(3 minutes ago, 14 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ac13c765755a 19:35:48 <09gammafunk> advil: I did a fun thing on CDI that reminded me of the time you tangled with sshd on CAO. Was a bit tired and impatient and needed to update sudoers to allow a new update-experimental script I made for dgl that works better than the update-stable for that purpose. So forgot about visudo and edited the file with normal sudo vim. Of course I managed to mess up the syntax and thus managed to lock out all access to sudo (and didn't have 19:35:49 an already open root shell). 19:37:52 <09gammafunk> Needless to say after scrambling to look for fixes and it looking like I may have to rebuild the instance, since lightsail doesn't quite have the management capabilities of EC2, I was very relieved to eventually discover that you can run a root-mode script on any new lightsail instance you start, hence I could repair the file for an instance made from a current snapshot 19:38:16 <09gammafunk> And was able to move the static IP to the new instance no problem 19:38:30 03hellmonk02 07[mega_microtemples] * 0.29-a0-672-g5fc58a1e8b: feat: Rain temple 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 41+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5fc58a1e8b46 19:38:30 03hellmonk02 07[mega_microtemples] * 0.29-a0-673-g4d67be7493: feat: Icy temple 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 43+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4d67be749388 19:38:30 03hellmonk02 07[mega_microtemples] * 0.29-a0-674-g040f8c87dd: feat: Another low altar count temple 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 48+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/040f8c87dd21 19:38:30 03hellmonk02 07[mega_microtemples] * 0.29-a0-675-g7b6853e720: feat: Another small temple 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 44+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7b6853e72092 19:38:30 03hellmonk02 07[mega_microtemples] * 0.29-a0-676-gadab5b601d: checkwhite 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 95+ 95-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/adab5b601d6a 19:38:50 <09gammafunk> it's a commit storm 19:39:46 commit-microburst maybe 🙂 19:40:20 <09gammafunk> let's go with a commit megaburst 19:40:23 <09gammafunk> given the branch 19:40:29 <09gammafunk> oh, it's both 19:40:30 <09gammafunk> wow 19:40:36 <09gammafunk> a mega_microburst 19:40:47 <09hellmonk> did you never play warioware? smh 19:40:57 <09gammafunk> yeah I did play the first one maybe 19:40:59 <09gammafunk> but not a lot 19:41:12 <09gammafunk> I assume there have been mutliple warioware games at this point 19:41:19 <09hellmonk> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarioWare,_Inc.:_Mega_Microgames! 19:43:37 New branch created: pull/2586 (10 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2586 19:43:37 Branch pull/2586 updated to be equal with mega_microtemples: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2586 19:43:47 <09hellmonk> feedback appreciated ofc 19:45:28 <09hellmonk> this should be enough to push the altar formula down to ebering's intended range; there's 5 temples with a 6 altar count, 4 with a 7 altar count, and 7 with an 8 altar count which should be plenty of coverage for the low end 19:47:27 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-720-gac13c76575 (34) 20:05:49 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 20:08:46 <09gammafunk> I'll take a look through in a lil bit 21:12:07 RBrandon (L25 DEHu) ERROR in 'throw.cc' at line 597: Invalid launcher '+0 fustibalus' (Vaults:5) 21:22:11 <08nicolae> i am also working on some temples although most of them are variable-size temples that can go down to the 6-8 range 21:22:36 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-721-g7f417c9bbb: Turn fustibaluses into hand crossbows 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7f417c9bbb6e 21:32:37 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-721-g7f417c9bbb (34)