00:03:22 <10PleasingFungus> probably 00:05:33 <10PleasingFungus> well, i guess the distinction becomes 'dex makes shields better, str makes it viable to wear larger shields' 00:07:00 <10PleasingFungus> high str, low dex: look for a tower shield (ideally a well enchanted one) low str, high dex: stick with a buckler neither: maybe don't wear a shield?? 00:38:24 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-582-ge82337ba6a: Fix batty monsters + Mark (dilly) 10(55 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e82337ba6aab 00:47:35 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-582-ge82337ba6a (34) 00:49:18 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/986130185109770240/unknown.png 00:50:18 03PleasingFungus02 07[hitachis-new-line] * 0.29-a0-579-g259f19594e: New wand tiles (Sastreii) 10(16 seconds ago, 17 files, 14+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/259f19594eff 00:56:42 <10PleasingFungus> @nicolae btw i’m planning to look at your pr. not now. but soonish 01:08:02 04Build failed for 08hitachis-new-line @ 259f1959 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/2492848285 01:11:00 <10PleasingFungus> i should actually click on one of those build failure messages 01:11:03 <10PleasingFungus> someday 01:11:13 <10PleasingFungus> also boy that branch name joke got old 01:11:21 <10PleasingFungus> i gotta make a new branch 02:58:39 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.29-a0-582-ge82337ba6a (34) 03:31:59 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4719-g50af30713d 06:22:47 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4719-g50af30713d 08:06:54 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.29-a0-582-ge82337b (34) 08:24:28 <06advil> weird ai thing, these slimes appear to be stuck here? 08:24:29 <06advil> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/986244733284270130/Screen_Shot_2022-06-14_at_8.24.13_AM.png 08:24:48 <06advil> are they pathing to the items or something? 08:30:12 <12ebering> They might be ya 09:17:53 <08nicolae> i hope it's good 😰 10:48:11 is the plain `proxFoe ||` in e82337ba6a right? used to be && with non-batty; that looks like it should make batty monsters reseek when not marked and adjacent to an enemy, which isn't obviously what I'd expect 10:48:50 based on the comment 10:52:54 <10PleasingFungus> there’s a ! 10:53:02 <05kate> i considered it when coming up with formulae but ended up intentionally leaving str out when redoing the shield penalties, fwiw. mostly for the reasons of complexity and also to keep the differentiation that shields have from armour a bit: str reduces armour penalties, but doesn't improve armour effectiveness. dex improves shield effectiveness, but doesn't reduce shield penalties 10:53:21 <10PleasingFungus> it makes non batty monsters reseek 10:53:23 <10PleasingFungus> right? 11:00:51 oh, I was misreading the grouping 11:01:03 <10PleasingFungus> gotcha 11:01:11 <10PleasingFungus> many parens 11:55:34 <12ebering> @PleasingFungus more wand flavors (assorted): barbs or webs, silence, elemental vuln (rX-) 11:56:13 webs are just throwing nets, no? 11:56:20 <10PleasingFungus> i like barbs, those were on my list 11:56:37 <10PleasingFungus> curious about your vision for ele vuln 11:59:28 <12ebering> Like an inverse potion of resistance but applied to the target 12:00:23 <12ebering> Land it on Donald then watch him feel a terrible chill from the lash of your demon ship of freezing 12:01:58 <10PleasingFungus> sure, i guess i meant more about the surrounding package 12:02:31 <10PleasingFungus> feels like it needs damage or something to be an interesting use of a turn - not sure ele vuln alone is impactful enough 12:02:37 <10PleasingFungus> could be wrong 12:05:21 <12ebering> I think the bonus damage from twiddling a resist pip in your favor is worth a turn 12:05:43 <12ebering> Particularly if you’re reliant on elemental damage 12:14:54 <09hellmonk> Wand of attract missiles 12:43:26 <09hellmonk> Bring back wand of random effects but have it randomly pull all of the wands that didn't generate in the game 13:08:52 <08nicolae> yes, turn that hex idea i had into a wand 13:09:10 <08nicolae> turn item sets into a single wand with a random effect from the list 13:20:12 <10PleasingFungus> i really want attract missiles, it's just very scary to implement 13:22:50 <08nicolae> yeah... 13:23:45 <08nicolae> i'd offer to help but i'm not sure i would actually help 14:09:11 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 14:23:04 <09hellmonk> Wand of excavation that digs out like a 5x5 or something 14:35:42 <10PleasingFungus> now that's design space 14:36:10 <10PleasingFungus> into it 14:57:29 -!- bhaak_ is now known as bhaak 15:25:14 -!- TAS-2012v is now known as TAS_2012v 15:28:00 -!- perryprog_ is now known as perryprog 15:44:38 <12ebering> had some thoughts about hell effects: make em trigger on level enter, instead of as a timed effect 15:44:50 <12ebering> I think that might "do the job" better 15:45:06 <12ebering> haven't developed the idea, too sleepy for the meatgrinder channel but wanted to put it here 15:47:51 <10PleasingFungus> interesting idea 15:48:06 <10PleasingFungus> pushing on the funkiness of the upstairs in hells 15:49:42 <05kate> there was some old discussion of making hells:1-6 non-persistent which i liked to punish bailing out after partly clearing a path, but hell effects triggering on level entry seems like it'd also work to address the same issue 15:51:30 <10PleasingFungus> non-persistent hells 1-6 also brings up the xp thing again 15:51:48 <10PleasingFungus> you presumably have to make later (all?) hell guys no XP, etc, etc 15:52:36 <12ebering> yeah, non-persistent hells cuts against my only infinity should be megazigging 15:52:39 <10PleasingFungus> if you want to make hell effects impactful, you could spread them out some - every floor you go down triggers a [smaller] hell effect (rather than a big effect on each entry) 15:52:40 <12ebering> take 15:52:55 <12ebering> oh, thats what I meant 15:52:56 <05kate> right, they'd be no-xp in that case, and hells already have no loot 15:53:14 <12ebering> just like the current timed effect roll table each time you hit > 15:53:22 <10PleasingFungus> and then could play with numbers 15:53:27 <12ebering> ya 15:53:29 <10PleasingFungus> i have no idea how many hell effects per floor players currently get 15:53:42 <12ebering> depends on how speedy they are 😉 17:04:00 <06advil> I'm not sure no-xp is really working out (if I'm understanding correctly) 17:07:36 <10PleasingFungus> yeah, it seems like it's worked out in a bit of an unfortunate way - players, eg carefulodds, have noted that they're now incentivized to leave abyss when they get tempmuted to work off the tempmuts in crypt, pan, etc 17:07:52 <10PleasingFungus> (slime prob works too) 17:09:00 <06advil> also, at this point I would not want to reject the widespread "feelsbad" reports 17:09:04 <10PleasingFungus> agree 17:09:27 <10PleasingFungus> we've historically had a policy of valuing the player experience in 3-rune games over that of extended games 17:09:33 <06advil> for some players the rune xp was maybe enough to counter that, but it doesn't seem like it worked for most 17:09:44 <06advil> maybe just depends on luck / how long it takes to get 17:09:45 <10PleasingFungus> i think we had good intentions with the abyss changes, but i think that ended up working out poorly 17:10:45 <10PleasingFungus> i'm vaguely into an idea that user FIQ suggested: - make it such that whenever you enter the abyss, you always end up as least as deep as you've been before (so once you've been to abyss:3, any entry will take you to at least abyss:3) - restore abyss xp/items - add deeper, more vicious abyss layers as needed - play around with the 'automatically get sucked deeper into the abyss on abyssal shift' frequency the idea being that you 17:10:45 have a very limited amount of time to mess around in abyss (for hells drain or w/e) before it gets uncomfortably deadly, but you can still play the banishment & rune games more or less as they were 17:10:58 <10PleasingFungus> the ideas that ebering suggested for hell effect changes could also help, by reducing pressure to 'scum' 17:11:18 deeper abyss> 27 layers a la Gooncrawl with an exit to Z:1 on A:27 for no-rune wins :-) 17:11:22 <10PleasingFungus> i also want to replace the abyss rune vault tiles with a distinct feature, but that's a small enough thing that i'll probably just do it 17:11:28 <10PleasingFungus> lol, gooncrawl was brought up 17:11:40 <10PleasingFungus> > re the gooncrawl thing [as criticism]: you can have depth increase on every banishment if you have 27 floors, but then you need to ramp up difficulty much more gently across the floors, but then you probably want to put the rune much deeper than floor 3, but then hunting for the rune sucks a bunch 17:11:45 <06advil> I do still want to try adding some portal-like indicator of the rune existence/loc, but I just can't handle the lua marker code 17:11:52 <10PleasingFungus> ha 17:12:02 <10PleasingFungus> yeah, i just want to add like... rune-lights 17:12:19 <10PleasingFungus> something with a description and that's very clearly visible in both tiles and console 17:12:23 <06advil> lol, like will o the wisps of legend or something? 17:12:41 A:1-5 could work as now with a relatively gradual ramp up from A:6. # AFAIK, no-one has pulled off the no-rune win but you've got a lot more stupidly good players than the Goons have 17:12:47 <06advil> yeah, the plan was that I would add the marker thing and remove the tiles indicators at the same time 17:13:03 <10PleasingFungus> oh, i just mean like... a lantern or lamp-post 17:13:14 <10PleasingFungus> a feature 17:13:29 <12ebering> you could do it by replacing the tiles w/a feature renamed statue that stops autoexplore even 17:13:40 <10PleasingFungus> oh, renamed statue could work 17:13:51 <10PleasingFungus> i like that 17:13:54 <12ebering> tho makign its own feature means you can prevent the abyss from shifting it 17:14:44 <10PleasingFungus> being its own feature would mean we could also make it floor-equivalent, which is nice for keeping existing vaults 17:14:50 <10PleasingFungus> not sure how much it matters there tbh 17:15:14 <10PleasingFungus> wait, does autoexplore work in the abyss? 17:15:25 <10PleasingFungus> want to stop travel, i guess 17:15:49 <05kate> depends how you define "work" but yes 17:16:09 <05kate> it moves you around at least! 17:16:11 <10PleasingFungus> ha 17:16:13 <10PleasingFungus> good enough 17:17:16 <05kate> probably the rune vault marker would need to be a special type of floor so it can surround the vault and be visible wherever you approach from, i guess? 17:19:06 <05kate> not sure how feasible it'd be to eg have it stop travel when the first instance of it comes into view but then not interrupt any more when further instances of the same feature become visible 17:25:06 -!- Pinkbeas1 is now known as Pinkbeast 17:25:14 wrt rune features: is this to clue people in that the rune is near? 17:25:23 because if so, couldn't you do something like what is already done for Pan? 17:27:59 <10PleasingFungus> that’s what advil was talking about, i believe 17:28:27 <08nicolae> yeah, i was catching up on the discussion and thinking "why not just have it announce something like 'you feel the pull of something incredibly abyssal nearby... perhaps... a rune????'" 17:28:31 <08nicolae> exactly that message too 17:29:24 <06advil> yes, though I think it would work better if it indicated distance or even direction (in contrast to the pan announcement), I have off and on been trying to adapt the portal announcement code for this 17:31:32 <08nicolae> would a big-ass halo centered on the rune work 17:31:38 <08nicolae> well, not halo halo, but a halo type effect like umbra 17:31:57 <12ebering> really want something that's accessible for console players 17:32:02 <12ebering> halo-effects are not that 17:32:03 <06advil> part of the trick is to get it to work in console, yeah 17:32:08 <08nicolae> oh right 17:35:53 03advil02 07* 0.29-a0-583-ged30ed24e1: feat: add zot clock to dungeon overview 10(20 minutes ago, 3 files, 95+ 27-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ed30ed24e183 17:35:53 03advil02 07* 0.29-a0-584-gb10a8bf730: feat: indicate zot clock death risk in status light 10(11 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b10a8bf730bb 17:36:34 <08nicolae> runesense. you get near the rune, it shows up on the map and an announcement pops up saying "you feel the pull of something... runeular" 17:37:10 <08nicolae> or maybe if you're far away it's a big square where the rune might be but as you get closer the runesense is refined 17:41:05 <06advil> re simply showing up on the map a la ash, I did consider that, but it seemed to make things too easy in theory; though now I wonder what it'd be like (since navigating the abyss to an arbitrary loc is not necessarily easy) 17:41:37 <06advil> well, not exactly a la ash, but similar 17:42:19 <08nicolae> make some really hard rune vaults to trick the runesense 17:42:34 <06advil> there is definitely already variation 17:42:36 <06advil> hm 17:45:24 <08nicolae> runesense but also add a monster that shows up as a fake rune 17:48:30 <06advil> we could call it a mimic 17:50:21 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-584-gb10a8bf730 (34) 17:57:39 <10PleasingFungus> ooh, cool new zot features 17:58:08 <10PleasingFungus> on the status line, i would simply like a unicode skull 17:58:12 <10PleasingFungus> i think everyone would enjoy that 17:58:44 <10PleasingFungus> we should probably pull zot clock stuff out of timed_effects.cc into their own file 17:59:31 <06advil> I was vaguely thinking of namespacing it 17:59:41 <06advil> I blame you that I know use "vaguely" all the time 18:00:07 <10PleasingFungus> lol 18:00:08 <06advil> *now 18:00:08 <10PleasingFungus> y/w 18:00:13 <06advil> til that you can guess if you just missed the abyss rune if xom gets amused 18:00:18 <10PleasingFungus> ha 18:00:21 <10PleasingFungus> helpful! 18:00:29 <10PleasingFungus> i got my wife to describe things as 'rude' 18:14:32 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-585-g58cc3432a3: vaults: adjust serial_undead to modern D spawn tables 10(46 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/58cc3432a3e8 18:14:32 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-586-g53e7fda734: vaults: new demonic serial vault 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 120+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/53e7fda734b1 18:17:41 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-586-g53e7fda734 (34) 18:23:27 <10PleasingFungus> rip D guardian mummy 18:23:38 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.29-a0-584-gb10a8bf730 (34) 18:23:50 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * cikiller=guardian_mummy d s=cv o=cv trunk 18:23:52 <04Cerebot> 46 games for * (cikiller=guardian_mummy d trunk): 2x 0.29-a, 2x 0.28-a, 0.27-a, 3x 0.26-a, 3x 0.25-a, 6x 0.24-a, 4x 0.23-a, 3x 0.22-a, 2x 0.21-a, 3x 0.20-a, 5x 0.19-a, 0.18-a, 2x 0.17-a, 2x 0.16-a, 0.14-a, 0.13-a, 0.12-a, 2x 0.10-a, 2x 0.8-a 18:23:57 <10PleasingFungus> gettin those kills! 18:24:06 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * cikiller=guardian_mummy d 18:24:07 <04Cerebot> 80. exy the Cleaver (L13 PaFi of Qazlal), slain by a guardian mummy on D:15 (gammafunk_depths_entry_grave) on 2022-06-08 17:14:46, with 29787 points after 17235 turns and 1:16:41. 18:50:43 <06advil> huh I actually think simply detecting the abyssal rune in the map could work 18:50:53 <06advil> though it feels like something lugonu or ash could have specifically 18:51:04 <06advil> I will put a prototype in a branch 19:00:15 New branch created: detect-abyssal-rune (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/detect-abyssal-rune 19:00:16 03advil02 07[detect-abyssal-rune] * 0.29-a0-585-g58c811703a: feat: abyssal rune detection 10(6 minutes ago, 3 files, 60+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/58c811703a14 19:03:13 <08nicolae> maybe it has a longer range if you're with lugonu or ash 19:05:19 is range even meaningful in the abyss? 19:05:24 <06advil> maybe, it's level range right now and that didn't seem bad 19:05:47 <06advil> lugonu also already has less maprot and higher rune chance, and ash (I presume, didn't check) has all the usual detect stuff still, albeit with maprot 19:06:12 <06advil> range would matter, because the abyss at any time is secretly a usual sized map 19:07:00 <06advil> it's actually pretty common in my playtesting of this for the abyss to generate on the other side of the map, and these are the cases where you'd have to be really lucky to ever get there in the current scheme of things 19:07:06 <06advil> *the abyss rune 19:07:56 the return of labyrinth 19:08:39 <06advil> not sure what this has to do with lab? 19:09:43 <06advil> I guess in that environmental cues told you a direction you should be heading? 19:09:45 mm, maybe I'm drawing a weird analogy. actually feels kinda like lab in reverse 19:10:24 in lab it was hard to get to someplace putatively nearby, in abyss it's hard to get somewhere far away 19:11:13 <06advil> heh that's true enough 19:13:24 <03wheals> re: re: gooncrawl 27 levels, it seems you can fix rune hunting being slower by making the abyssal stair extremely common, to the point that you can expect one after looking for around 50 turns or so 19:13:41 <03wheals> 27 is still probably not the optimal number of levels though 19:14:18 and this is reminding me of grunt experimentally adding levels to the abyss 19:14:24 I thought 27 was the optimal level of anything 19:14:34 at some point every open square had an upstair on it :) 19:14:40 <09hellmonk> add abyssal shafts that take you several levels deeper at once 19:14:47 <08nicolae> 9 is like a mini-27 imo 19:17:03 04Build failed for 08detect-abyssal-rune @ 58c81170 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/2498654069 19:17:45 03advil02 07[detect-abyssal-rune] * 0.29-a0-585-g42ae30cadf: feat: abyssal rune detection 10(23 minutes ago, 3 files, 60+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/42ae30cadf39 19:21:24 <03wheals> the initial implementation of multi-level abyss actually did have 27 levels 19:28:38 <10PleasingFungus> ! 19:28:52 <10PleasingFungus> > 27 is still probably not the optimal number of levels though feel like slowly discovering this was the history of modern crawl 19:29:02 <10PleasingFungus> by 'modern' i mean, like, post-0.14 19:29:19 <03wheals> sadly good game design and meme numbers do not always align 19:30:44 <08nicolae> so i'm guessing my patch for a 69-level bazaar branch isn't going to get merged, 19:33:26 <10PleasingFungus> lol 19:35:58 <09hellmonk> 27 level abyss works fine if every level is 27x27 19:36:02 <09hellmonk> think about it 21:24:35 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-587-g3e51bf9b82: Don't injury bond ioods (riverfiend) 10(16 minutes ago, 1 file, 13+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3e51bf9b82f8 21:28:15 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-588-g1f97f7987d: Let parghit throw ruk (dilly) 10(15 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1f97f7987de0 21:33:02 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-588-g1f97f7987d (34) 22:48:02 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-589-gc28e0ee30e: New feature: item sets 10(3 days ago, 20 files, 200+ 27-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c28e0ee30eea 22:48:02 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-590-g48b2cc46b9: New item: wand of light 10(3 days ago, 15 files, 63+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/48b2cc46b9a5 22:48:02 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-591-g4f8b61c030: Make wands of light alternate with acid wands 10(3 days ago, 20 files, 33+ 26-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4f8b61c030fd 22:48:02 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-592-g376ae5a38f: Add 'any beam wand' shorthand 10(3 days ago, 15 files, 26+ 23-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/376ae5a38f64 22:48:02 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-593-g5a9699462f: New item: wand of quicksilver (ebering) 10(3 days ago, 8 files, 16+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5a9699462f49 22:48:02 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-594-gc4eff49456: Relax the no-excluded-items policy. 10(2 days ago, 6 files, 16+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c4eff49456c0 22:48:02 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-595-g3bc56fe6af: New wand tiles (Sastreii) 10(22 hours ago, 17 files, 13+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3bc56fe6afa2 22:48:02 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-596-g57363d2029: Pull mindburst out of the hex set 10(67 minutes ago, 4 files, 9+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/57363d20293e 23:08:57 04Build failed for 08hitachis-new-line @ 57363d20 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/2499426031 23:14:46 <10PleasingFungus> oops, i forgot about build failures 23:18:40 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-597-g69c401ce25: Fix the build? 10(6 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/69c401ce2573 23:22:32 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-596-g57363d2029 (34) 23:28:06 04Build failed for 08master @ 57363d20 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/2499426090 23:32:36 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-597-g69c401ce25 (34) 23:34:58 <09hellmonk> please dont make an exception for my silly vault 23:35:13 <09hellmonk> the inventory burden... smh 23:53:30 <10PleasingFungus> lol 23:53:34 <10PleasingFungus> it seemed funny 23:53:54 <10PleasingFungus> but i could go back to having w:9999 wand of paralysis / w:1 scroll of vulnerability