01:04:36 <08nicolae> stars made flesh. a meateor 01:07:29 <10PleasingFungus> ominous 01:34:47 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-506-ga2e7fffb44 (34) 01:55:53 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-506-ga2e7fffb44 02:54:11 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-506-ga2e7fffb44 02:59:12 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.29-a0-506-ga2e7fffb44 (34) 03:45:45 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4719-g50af30713d 04:02:53 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-771-gf3807b5a38 06:22:46 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4719-g50af30713d 08:27:40 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.29-a0-506-ga2e7fff (34) 09:53:18 Kiku torments claims it needs a corpse in ^ menu 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12703 by Lici_the_Crawler 10:10:48 <13Sastreii> another set: thin skeletal structure, large bone plates and sharp scales. 10:10:49 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/980110901631914054/Schermata_2022-05-28_alle_16.04.16.png 10:10:49 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/980110901896171580/muts_set_3.zip 10:53:53 <06advil> shop code in a nutshell: item_def& item(*const_cast(dynamic_cast(items[i])->item)); 11:50:17 <10PleasingFungus> aiiii! 12:15:36 03kate-02 07* 0.29-a0-507-g711e9a50b0: Update some Kiku descriptions (#12703) 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 10+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/711e9a50b03e 12:30:40 03advil02 07* 0.29-a0-508-g901c68f7c3: fix: incremental shopping menu improvements 10(40 minutes ago, 1 file, 60+ 23-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/901c68f7c3ff 12:33:18 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-507-g711e9a50b0 (34) 12:47:24 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-508-g901c68f7c3 (34) 15:36:34 <05kate> fwiw i still have sort of the same objections as initially in that i don't think designing around speedrunning is a good approach, it seems liable to just encourage a different kind of unfun optimisation play than DD (making you constantly be optimising outside of combat, instead of DD where you have to constantly be optimising inside combat) 15:37:25 <05kate> or to just be so strong that you don't particularly need to bother doing that, which would also seem like just a different kind of DD 15:44:08 <05kate> although also it might still just be an improvement over DD even if it has a similar set of potential problems, so i'm not super opposed to merging the branch overall 15:44:23 <10PleasingFungus> heh 15:44:42 <10PleasingFungus> these are fair objections. i personally have had fun with the species, and don't feel like it's currently 'too strong' 15:44:48 <10PleasingFungus> i think it's much easier to die with it than it is with dd 15:44:52 <10PleasingFungus> since there's no damage shaving 15:45:09 <10PleasingFungus> but it keeps the 'fast moving' thing with an alternate way to avoid needing to rest between combats 15:49:30 <05kate> yeah, i also haven't done a full game with them or anything, just a little local messing about to try and get a feel for how fast the clock actually is and if/how strongly it'd encourage weird travel/exploration optimisation etc 15:50:21 <10PleasingFungus> gotcha! i haven't gone further than lair myself 15:50:27 <10PleasingFungus> carefulodds has been going on a rampage with em 15:50:31 <10PleasingFungus> many many star games 16:40:52 03advil02 07* 0.29-a0-509-g793eeb5391: fix: some issues for shops you aren't in 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 8+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/793eeb5391e7 16:42:50 <10PleasingFungus> also, apparently some jelly zombies remain very weird, sprite wise 16:42:52 <10PleasingFungus> i wonder why 16:47:35 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-509-g793eeb5391 (34) 17:12:00 <10PleasingFungus> hm 17:12:06 <10PleasingFungus> i wish i knew french 17:12:23 <08nicolae> it's easy, you just don't pronounce half the letters 17:22:36 <09gammafunk> @PleasingFungus If it's a helpful perspective, I did ascent a SaAr (StAr!) of trog, morgue there: https://crawl.dcss.io/crawl/morgue/gammafunk/morgue-gammafunk-20220528-105102.txt It was not an easy win, only barely made it through zot:5 and the ascension. Although Zot:5 wasn't too bad, there was a good deal of risky play involved, and the orb run got pretty scary due to lack of resources. The clock does a pretty good job of 17:22:37 preventing tedious strategies overall, although I won't claim I was playing close to optimally and that there aren't weird tactics. Probably the most interesting thing is having to strategize about how to spend your turns. You have to plan a "route" in terms of ensuring you have enough turns for the time intensive branch ends as well as any necessary travel. You see this especially in Lair, since Lair:6 is costly and you need time to travel back through 17:22:37 lair in a second trip to visit S branches. Also have to dive aggressively in places like S branches and Vaults so you have time to do the branch ends. It's an interesting and challenging aspect of the species, but it is a bit like playing turncount, which some casual players may not enjoy 17:22:59 <10PleasingFungus> thanks! 17:23:28 <10PleasingFungus> i'm not super excited about the routing part, but don't immediately have ideas for how to avoid i 17:23:45 <09gammafunk> Leaned a lot on throwing despite not having a very robust supply of boomerangs and javs, but what I found did excellent work. You end up being a bit underpowered in terms of enchantment for armor and weapons, and you sort of want some ranged to have prevent too much attrition i big fights 17:23:51 Yeah, I wasn't sure how I felt about the idea of having to manually pathfind 17:23:59 But I haven't played it yet so I'm not sure how it feels in gameplay 17:24:58 <09gammafunk> You can do some autoexplore in dungeon and depths levels and just sort of watch your timer, but around 300 turns you want to start assessing how much of the level is left and whether it's safe to run closer to only 100 turns left 17:25:34 <09gammafunk> And when some return trip is required (e.g. back to lair/orc), you need to leave more turns on the clock, possibly dive down a quick level to "recharge" so you can make the journey 17:25:58 <09gammafunk> And if you're in a branch that has an intensive branch end, you kind of need to just dive down fairly fast and not use autoexplore at all 17:26:45 <09gammafunk> Can do some of the level but you need 1500 to 2k turns potentially for the branch end, so you need to build up a surplus 17:26:52 <09gammafunk> possible that number will go down with more play experience 17:27:11 <09gammafunk> Definitely a fun/unique experience, albeit one I wouldn't want to do a lot 18:00:59 <09gammafunk> @kate It definitely encourages/requires travel optimization, but that does at least feel like a challenging process that's quite systematic, as opposed to DD where you try to solve its optimization issue mostly with god choice or eventually simply ignore it once you've become strong enough. With Sa you basically are always more or less equally subject to this conduct and its impacts, I think even when you choose a stronger god. So in 18:00:59 that sense it feels a more successful design. I can say that I had more fun with this species because of how persistent the conduct is than I had when playing a DD that just sort of became relatively unkillable at some point. 18:01:23 <09gammafunk> Not sure if it was mentioned, but there is a playable branch on CDI for it right now too, if people want to try 18:02:03 Does make sense that it's interestingly simply because it encourages "thinking" about what you're doing much, much more than other races 18:02:26 Species, even 18:04:08 <09gammafunk> It does have a bit of a DD feel, but yeah, you don't just become a murder machine (once you get your bread and butter online and gank all the orcs, that's GG) like DD, since you really do lack consumables. Not so much xp due to the apts, which were recently buffed 18:04:36 <09gammafunk> my win was less than 4 hours, quite fast for me, though 18:05:04 Plus for whatever reason high apts gives unreasonable amounts of fun (though I'm sure that's also due to the contrast of normal or low apt species) 18:05:35 <09gammafunk> yeah, we definitely want to avoid the "simply become invincible because being invincible is fun" type of design 18:05:56 <09gammafunk> it's possible that the recent buff went a bit too far, for example, but it's quite early to claim that 18:06:25 <09gammafunk> I think the final quarter of my game did have benefit of that apt change, it might be more pronounced for a game played 100% with the current apts 18:06:32 One reason I love (and hate) Fo (in my case almost always FoGl^Usk) is that even though you can get to a point where you're super powerful, it's never, ever, over: you can still die in a heartbeat if you aren't paying attention. 18:08:59 <09gammafunk> Yeah, I don't love Fo, but they're one of the most successful weird/heavy conduct species 18:09:53 I really just like it because having a giant weapon and a giant shield is funny 18:11:47 Also I have currently 559 games as Fo (including wiz mode/testing games) and no wins... heh 18:24:38 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.29-a0-509-g793eeb5391 (34) 18:25:02 <09gammafunk> wow 18:45:55 Yeah. I've been very committed to winning this one particular build. (I also have have 1524 morgues total, also including test/wiz games) 19:34:35 I wonder if the amount of variance you can get in how powerful the result of a ?summoning is something that could be tweaked. I feel like I consistently get something between "pathetically weak" and "very OOD/pack of strong things" when I use it. 19:34:54 Although maybe it shouldn't be good to rely on not getting something weak from ?summoning anyway. 19:46:34 <10PleasingFungus> in the old days, ?summoning had much less variance! 19:46:41 <10PleasingFungus> it would summon, specifically, one (1) small abomination 19:49:20 how cute! 19:51:54 New branch created: menu-commands (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/menu-commands 19:51:54 03advil02 07[menu-commands] * 0.29-a0-510-g4f2e111094: feat: CMD_MENU_... for menu navigation bindings 10(9 minutes ago, 9 files, 375+ 212-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4f2e1110946e 19:52:26 <09gammafunk> Think the variance of summoning is pretty good. The low end is nearly always still useful, it might mean you need to read two scrolls or follow up with some other kind of ally creation or buff to get enough power. 19:52:46 ah, yeah, that's true 19:52:52 <09gammafunk> But ime one scroll is pretty much always impactful 19:53:02 just being able to have a meatshield is usually enough to reliably save a life 19:53:46 <06advil> iirc it's essentially shadow creatures, right? 19:54:10 <06advil> which does have a whole bunch of caveats that are probably harder to intuit if you didn't play while the spell was around 19:56:36 The only thing I know about the shadow creature spell is that it's mentioned a lot in docs/arena.txt 19:59:43 <08nicolae> does dith do anything with shadow creatures, does it do that against you for wrath 20:02:12 I don't think so, or at least not anymore 20:07:11 <10PleasingFungus> i believe it is literally and exactly shadow creatures 20:07:31 <10PleasingFungus> well, eh, maybe the spell worked slightly differently 20:07:36 <10PleasingFungus> anyway, yes, agreeing with your actual point 20:08:26 <09gammafunk> I seem to recall it's like two casts of shadow creatures 20:09:15 <09gammafunk> hrm 20:09:32 <09gammafunk> seems not 20:10:29 <09gammafunk> I swear it was implemented that way at one point, but no, it just creates 2d2 shadow creature style summons 20:10:59 <09gammafunk> which is to say a random compatible monster from current depth 20:12:08 <10PleasingFungus> @Sastreii looks great, thanks! thin skeletal structure is very funny alongside robust 🙂 20:12:32 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-510-g343b47744d: Add missing Bearserk description 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/343b47744d5e 20:12:32 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-511-ga64e7d0afd: More body mutation tiles (Sastreii) 10(63 seconds ago, 11 files, 15+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a64e7d0afd57 20:19:22 <13Sastreii> I’ve noticed that too when i was doing them! I wonder if there’s a chance for players to have robust and thin at the same time That would be kinda weird and funny 20:22:01 <10PleasingFungus> do think that's possible 20:22:35 <10PleasingFungus> has to be demonspawn, i think? a little unlikely but could happen, if i remember how facets work 20:22:36 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/980264865027481660/unknown.png 20:22:55 <10PleasingFungus> don't think it's an actual problem - players think this sort of thing is funny 20:23:28 <09gammafunk> extremely swol 20:24:42 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-511-ga64e7d0afd (34) 20:26:16 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-512-gf59ac788ac: Fix stab logging with spriggan's knife (Rhaal) 10(18 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f59ac788ac93 20:32:28 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-512-gf59ac788ac (34) 20:52:26 <08nicolae> hell yeah, love the bearserk puns 😎 21:05:06 <10PleasingFungus> a lil self-indulgence between friends 21:18:04 gammafunk, I guess the difference between low and high end is just when you get one (or two, three, four...) /bands/ summoned