02:38:02 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.29-a0-418-gc0181ea820 (34) 03:36:40 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4664-g6ac40a12b4 06:23:42 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4664-g6ac40a12b4 08:15:07 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.29-a0-418-gc0181ea (34) 09:45:54 03Nikolai Lavsky02 {advil} 07* 0.29-a0-419-g77450f2105: fix: restore scroll-swinging and scroll-tossing speed (12701) 10(5 weeks ago, 1 file, 11+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/77450f21059b 10:06:24 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-419-g77450f2105 (34) 11:56:19 Ilikecheese (L26 DsFi) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Zot:4) 11:57:12 !crashlog 11:57:13 24378. Ilikecheese, XL26 DsFi, T:58709 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Ilikecheese/crash-Ilikecheese-20220517-155618.txt 12:01:37 hm, SIGBRT during CMD_REPLAY_MESSAGES, wonder how that happened 12:05:14 <10PleasingFungus> sigbrt sounds like a name 12:13:09 <08nicolae> Sigbert, sigmund's brother who has a tie that curls up 13:04:05 -!- F8ER is now known as Voxel 13:49:23 03PleasingFungus02 07[corpseless_party] * 0.29-a0-424-g45bdc5bc7b: Ban anime zombies from attacking outside LOS, again again 10(23 seconds ago, 1 file, 14+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/45bdc5bc7bc2 13:49:26 Branch pull/2428 updated to be equal with corpseless_party: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2428 14:36:52 <06advil> apparently once upon a time sigbert was the name of kings and saints 14:37:09 <06advil> it does kinda sound like a knockoff cheat commando name now though 14:43:22 <12ebering> Make your character name sigbert to unlock the secret q bert crossover sprint. Beat it and get quad damage for your next regular game 15:15:46 <10PleasingFungus> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/wiki/Rewarding-Abyss some thoughts 15:44:11 I've been considering giving the abyss rune portal-style distance messages (and removing the secret tiles) 15:58:20 <10PleasingFungus> mm, i think that’d be an improvement over status quo, but i think the no xp issue is bigger 15:59:04 probably 15:59:13 also tbh I've tried off and on for over a month now to implement it and the marker code has defeated me each time 15:59:50 <10PleasingFungus> dang 16:00:22 <10PleasingFungus> oh, i should note that my proposal would involve turning all the current abyss rune vaults into exit vaults 16:00:30 <10PleasingFungus> i guess 17:40:26 <05kate> i feel like we already have zigs that function fairly well as "the most dangerous place you can be" that let you get infinite xp/loot even when it's not really helping you win, so having the abyss also aim to work that way doesn't quite feel right to me 17:42:06 hm. I always felkt like working that way was already established and what made banishment so dangerous 17:42:46 "fate worse than death" 17:44:19 <05kate> right, it works that way for most cases of early/mid-game banishment but not so much very late, and changing it to keep scaling more and more heavily at high XL is where it seems like it'd start to overlap with zigs 17:46:45 <09gammafunk> @kate clearly banish to a zig level, which you must complete in order to escape, with depth and megazig depth of that level based on your xl 17:48:13 secret lore: abyss and zigs are actually the same thing 17:51:58 but it also seems wrong for a late-game banishment to be a detour for a free-ish rune 17:52:15 of coutrse I'm just repeating the existingt talking points :) 18:11:25 <10PleasingFungus> hm, i don't think i agree with that 18:11:28 <10PleasingFungus> at kate 18:11:41 <10PleasingFungus> i'd describe zigs, in the context of a 3-rune game, as a "push your luck" mechanic 18:11:57 <10PleasingFungus> at a certain point, it's vaguely reasonable to enter a zig (if a lil risky), and quite high reward 18:12:07 <10PleasingFungus> but you almost certainly don't want to finish a zig 18:12:29 <10PleasingFungus> abyss, on the other hand, is a threat, with some minor upside to feel better 18:12:38 <10PleasingFungus> that seems quite different from zigs, to me 18:16:55 <05kate> it's not trying to do the same sort of thing, but if the solution to "this place has infinite xp and loot in it" is to make it as dangerous as possible in a way that continues to scale up and up, then that sounds like what zigs already are 18:17:18 <05kate> but in a way where they're designed around that premise, rather than the proposed abyss scaling threat being necessary to justify the infinite loot and xp even though that's not what the branch is about 18:18:04 <10PleasingFungus> hm, i feel like i sort of understand you and i sort of don't 18:18:21 <10PleasingFungus> it feels like "scaling up and up" is being used in two different ways 18:18:59 FWIW (and I know this is a bit beside the point), I personally am a big fan of the flavor that being xp-less gives. It makes the abyss feel very far separated from any other place in crawl. 18:19:02 <10PleasingFungus> sorry, i interrupted you typing something 18:19:34 <10PleasingFungus> perryprog: don't think that's besides the point! it's a valuable anecdote 18:19:41 <10PleasingFungus> haven't heard... uh, anyone else liking new abyss, really 18:19:49 what why 18:19:51 it's dope 18:20:15 <10PleasingFungus> players like getting xp and items. it feels good to see number go up 18:20:21 <10PleasingFungus> this is a fundamental premise of crawl, really 18:20:21 flavor and storytelling by way of mechanics is really neat. I feel not many games do it. 18:20:31 my own thought would be along the lines of: ditch the rune in the abyss, otherwise follow PF's suggestion: the abyss should always be a fate worse than death 18:20:56 <05kate> i mainly just feel like zigs should be the only place where infinite xp and loot exists, because those really can get away with handing out significant rewards but also just continuing to scale up the danger to absurd levels 18:20:57 Subverting what you expect from a game's mechanics (all of a sudden you're in an area where the rules you thought applied didn't) is a cool design choice, and it's limited enough in scope that it doesn't feel intrusive on the game as a whole 18:21:08 The abyss entrances then get replaced by a zig entrance. At the end of your first zig you get a rune (maybe the abyssal, to keep from complicating sequell) 18:22:31 also I kinda agree with PF's suggestion that zigs are more of a "push your luck" mechanic. might make thenm scale a bit better, but level 27 should still be as hard as it is now 18:22:44 <10PleasingFungus> what does 'scaling better' mean? 18:22:59 <10PleasingFungus> kate: i'm not sure what you mean by 'significant rewards', sorry 18:23:28 the earliest floors might be somewhat easier (if they aren't already; I haven't been in one yet) as a sort of "okay, you handled this. feel lucky, punk?" 18:23:40 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.29-a0-419-g77450f2105 (34) 18:24:09 which does not mean L1 should be rats and goblins 18:24:54 (Re: my last point: oh, you also get XP once you get the rune anyway, so...) 18:25:56 <05kate> i just mean zig loot - like you mentioned, they can work as a place you dip into for a few floors on a normal 3-rune character, but they're also fun for silly infinite play for the kind of person who likes doing that. infinite pan and infinite abyss don't scale that way and i don't think either of them should really try to 18:27:14 <05kate> (so some kind of finite abyss with rewards would also sound fine to me, but that sort of loses the fundamental idea of the abyss) 18:27:19 <10PleasingFungus> it does 18:27:44 <10PleasingFungus> i definitely agree that infinite pan is not a good idea 18:28:06 <10PleasingFungus> i'm just confused about the idea that the proposed 'scary abyss' would have to scale in the same way as zigs, or that it would be somehow competing for the 'silly infinite play' niche 18:28:20 <10PleasingFungus> i don't quite see how either of those ideas follow 18:28:44 I think there was an offhand mention of it (or something that could be interpreted as it, via the XP above 27 comment) in your proposal 18:28:53 er XL 18:29:22 <05kate> the proposal is i understood it is that it would be the scariest place you can be and that it would scale up if necessary to achieve that, maybe i'm not getting the right idea of how it would work 18:29:35 <10PleasingFungus> oh, maybe that was poorly written. i was not planning 'infinite' scaling 18:29:42 <10PleasingFungus> just that we might end up scaling a bit above xl 27 18:30:05 <05kate> i definitely don't think it would or could compete for zig-style infinite play, just that it would continue to have the same flaws as old abyss of being a place where infinite xp and loot exists 18:30:23 <05kate> and that zigs are an example of a place where infinite xp and loot exists but it's fine 18:30:34 <10PleasingFungus> i mean, the whole point of that proposal is to address exactly those flaws 18:31:39 <05kate> i just don't see how it addresses those flaws if it continues to be a place with infinite loot and xp, without also having the same kinds of threat levels as zigs get 18:31:59 <10PleasingFungus> it seems to me that we don't need the threat level of zigs, unless we want to challenge megazig players 18:32:16 <09gammafunk> yeah, to PleasingFungus' point, if a zig can manage to be a always or nearly-always depth appropriate threat given that it has xp and loot, surely the same thing can be achieved with adjustents to abyss monsters etc 18:32:29 <09gammafunk> abyss already has an extremely large monster set to choose from that's quite zig-like in its scale 18:32:30 <10PleasingFungus> my feeling is that something around the threat level of current abyss 5 is plenty to give hells players pause 18:32:50 <10PleasingFungus> to make it potentially riskier to go into abyss to 'scum off drain' than to continue through hells 18:33:02 <10PleasingFungus> (or to 'scum for xp', w/e) 18:33:33 <09gammafunk> in this proposal, there's no way to enter the abyss aside from getting banished or self-banishment? 18:33:44 <10PleasingFungus> yeah, but that doesn't really matter for this discussion 18:34:03 <10PleasingFungus> it just means that, if we screw up and abyss is good to scum, players end up doing nonsense with distortion weapons instead of just walking in a door 18:34:27 <09gammafunk> right, that's what I was sort of kicking around 18:34:38 <09gammafunk> parking monsters with banish etc 18:34:44 <10PleasingFungus> eh, don't think you'd need to do that 18:34:48 <10PleasingFungus> there's gonna be a distort weapon somewhere 18:34:57 maybe the more time you've spent in the abyss, the less likely a disto weapon will banish you instead of major damage 18:35:00 <10PleasingFungus> but if things get to that point, something's already gone quite wrong 18:35:01 <10PleasingFungus> ha 18:35:09 <05kate> i guess my objection is more fundamental to the idea of it being an infinite source of xp 18:35:20 One possibility would be to only have a finite amount of XP and loot, and have the benefits tail off as the player kills and finds stuff. 18:35:35 <10PleasingFungus> aliscans: a few people have suggested that. it doesn't seem like it really accomplishes much of anything, though 18:35:52 <10PleasingFungus> it's complex, hard to communicate, feels bad, and still potentially encourages some amount of 'grinding' 18:35:55 Only tangentially related, but since we're discussing abyss re-reworks, could we add some tactical decision-making to banishment as well? Currently there's little the player can do if they pop into fov of a banisher and the mage decides to punch the banish button. 18:36:03 <10PleasingFungus> kate: is that axiomatically a problem? 18:36:15 It means that they Abyss gives the player nothing that Elf or something doesn't give. 18:36:19 <10PleasingFungus> cot: this is a very old topic with many answers 🙂 18:36:34 i'm not surprised :) 18:36:44 <10PleasingFungus> controlling line of sight is important, getting willpower is important, being able to deal with being banished is important 18:37:26 >controlling line of sight is important< But like I said, there's little the player could do if the first thing the banisher does is banish 18:37:38 <10PleasingFungus> in almost every case, when a player describes a situation as having "no tactical decision-making" or "no counterplay", there's some important issues they're overlooking 18:37:39 <09gammafunk> kate, you don't have a problem with zigs being that? it seems to me that if it's a problem that the abyss can do it at all in any form, then one has the same objection about zig. The xp/loot aren't exactly in the abyss to make it a destination, but because the game doesn't really work well if it has players spend a substantial time in a place where those things don't exist 18:37:47 <10PleasingFungus> cot: that's what the latter two points are for! 18:38:33 True, but that's pretty rng-dependent. If the game doesn't throw a single Will+ item at a MiFi for instance, they're screwed if they come across Erolcha in ~D:8. 18:39:02 <09gammafunk> like we have hells and slime earlier floors where there's xp and no loot, but they all culminate with loot+xp, but other than this sort of dive, we don't really have places that deny players both things, because as we've found those places aren't really enjoyable to spend any amount of time in, I guess 18:39:24 Something I would consider, personally, tactical gameplay would be an abyss timer that triggers when the banishment spell is cast, but can be removed by the player's actions (staying out of los for X turns in a row, killing the banisher, etc) 18:39:35 a branch doesn't have to be "enjoyable" IMO. (Though, most should. For example, all but 1 :P) 18:39:36 ^^ Not a serious suggestion, but just a thought 18:39:42 <10PleasingFungus> well, if you get no Will+, and you run into erolcha, and she banishes first thing, and you get unlucky in the abyss, in principle... but in the same way, a player could roll quite badly on damage repeatedly and perish 18:39:47 <10PleasingFungus> perryprog: disagree 18:39:52 fair 18:40:08 <10PleasingFungus> in practice, you can see that a skilled player can deal with these situations 18:40:09 cot: I mean, even if you do get that very unlucky scenario, it is still possible to /escape/ the abyss after that and then you get one of those cool moments that make a game feel very rewarding because you've survived something absurd 18:40:10 <10PleasingFungus> !streak acrobat 18:40:12 <04Cerebot> acrobat has 66 consecutive wins (DDNe, SpWn, DgSu, DrNe, HuNe, DgCj, DgEE, PaFE, OgEE, OgNe, HuAK, DrFE, DEIE, PaWr, SpAE, TrFi, TrMo, FeFE, GnSu, BaWn, DgAr, HuWn, DrTm, NaAr, FeSu, VSAr, VpMo, MiFi, FeMo, OpCj, KoAr, HOCA, GhFi, FeIE, MfBr, SpHu, DsBe, VpGl, FeAE, GnEn, TrWz, FeEE, BaAr, SpEn, DEAE, HOFE, DrSu, FeCj, TeAE, MiHu, NaBe, SpAM, DjAE, VpIE, GrEE, OgTm, KoGl, GhMo, MfAr, DjVM, TrBr, ... 18:40:16 <10PleasingFungus> perryprog: yes, exactly! 18:40:30 True 18:40:35 I'm not saying it isn't survivable 18:40:48 Or that escaping banishment shouldn't be difficult 18:40:48 <05kate> like i said above, zigs scale to the point where they really will just kill basically any character, and i feel like that's the way for infinite play to exist 18:40:50 <10PleasingFungus> i think the more interesting conversation is, rather than "is there any counterplay for banishment [there is]", "does the current banishment mechanic provide a good trade-off of memorable escapes vs 'feel-bad' moments" 18:40:57 To clarify what I mean: I think it's okay for there to be a branch whose characterization is essentially that it provides next to no rewards for completing it 18:41:09 PleasingFungus: You phrased my thoughts better than I could. 18:41:30 <10PleasingFungus> my take is that, if abyss can scale to the point where it can at least spook any non-megazig character real good, that's good enough. and i think that's perfectly workable 18:41:42 <10PleasingFungus> with fairly small changes, even 18:41:58 <10PleasingFungus> (i don't really care about zig characters, for the obvious reasons) 18:42:07 well, they're probably impossible to challenge anyway 18:42:12 they're too dang good at breaking the game 18:43:27 <10PleasingFungus> eh 18:43:35 <09gammafunk> yeah, and I understand that point, but if nu abyss is adopting this aspect as well, because nu abyss is essentially trying to be like a "zig jail", then isn't it ok if abyss is infinite xp/loot if it manages to do the scaling thing right? 18:43:45 <10PleasingFungus> megazigging isn't much about skill, more about patience 18:44:05 <10PleasingFungus> a zig jail... what is a zig jail 18:44:07 <09gammafunk> yeah zig gameplay is kind of dull and the abyss is more creative in multiple ways 18:44:21 <05kate> well that was my initial objection - if it does the scaling thing "right" then it'd be doing what zigs do, imo 18:44:27 yeah, alright. Fair disclaimer: I've never entered a zig. ;) 18:44:30 <09gammafunk> @PleasingFungus jail is not quite the right word, but the abyss is analogous to a zig where you get forced to enter it...kind of like a jail? 18:44:50 <10PleasingFungus> perryprog: someday! they're neat 🙂 18:45:07 <10PleasingFungus> hm, i just feel that both you and kate are overstating the zig comparison considerably 18:45:39 (Being really busy in real life and school stuff sadly (temporarily, I'm sure) broke my crawl addiction. I was planning to do some zigs in a game soon. :) ) 18:46:15 <10PleasingFungus> school & rl def come first 🙂 18:46:59 <10PleasingFungus> well, maybe i’ll toss up a test branch at some point and see if that makes things clearer 18:47:05 <10PleasingFungus> many projects to juggle 18:47:09 <09gammafunk> it's possible that the comparison is sort of obscuring why we want to keep the abyss around: it feels a very thematic sort of prison to put players in 18:50:23 <10PleasingFungus> it is 18:50:52 <10PleasingFungus> i think there could be more done to make it feel scary and weird without feeling aimless 18:51:02 <10PleasingFungus> but it’s big evocative and memorable 18:51:37 <10PleasingFungus> @kate tyvm for explaining your thoughts in detail, btw! will def keep them in mind if i decide to push forward 18:51:44 I'm not sure why people would feel the abyss is aimless. It's a place bad people try to send you away to and there's also a mcguffin that you can optionally grab in it as well. 18:52:46 Personally I get an anxiety attack when I enter 18:53:14 If I'm playing normally I know (or hope I know) where the stairs are, I know I can tp to completely reset and possibly get back to safety, etc 18:53:49 with abyss I don't know if I'll be meeting some white imps or a parade of smite-happy smoke-demons 18:54:16 <10PleasingFungus> perryprog: interminable might have been a better word 18:54:32 <10PleasingFungus> how long will you be trapped in space jail? who knows 18:54:51 ^^ that too, you have no idea if/when you'll get out 18:55:24 All that combines to make abyss unpleasant for me personally. I couldn't really care about the presence of XP or loot. 18:55:49 !abyssratio 18:55:50 cot has survived banishment 7 of 11 times: 63% 19:19:10 !help nick 19:19:10 !nick: !nick: Maps a nick to name(s) used on the public servers. Usage: !nick ...; !nick -rm ; !nick -rm 19:19:26 !nick devteam 19:19:26 Mapping devteam => kilobyte pointless dpeg enne evktalo keskitalo bookofjude haranp rax rob sorear zaba felirx doy itsmu greensnark marvinpa evilmike sgrunt neil edlothiol jpeg erisdiscordia galehar elliptic ontoclasm bh frogbotherer napkin samb dracoomega mumra medar hangedman sage wheals gammafunk pleasingfungus 78291 lasty reaver amalloy brannock advil aidanh ebering wormsofcan wormsofcant docp... 20:57:14 PF: well, this might be belaboring the point, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Abyss is a chaotic place and there's not really a guard waiting for you to do your time before letting you out. 20:57:47 I guess if I had to say that there's something wrong with that, it's that there's "technically" a small lack of player agency in getting out, but I still don't really see that as a problem and more as a design choice. 21:01:29 <10PleasingFungus> i think flavour can work whichever way, but i do think it’s a bad gamefeel for something players will encounter regularly 21:01:47 hm, yeah, that's fair 21:01:49 <10PleasingFungus> i want people excited and terrified, not qyesing out of boredom! 21:02:48 surprised I've never heard qyesing before 21:03:06 <10PleasingFungus> i’m also surprised! 21:06:09 <06advil> it's nice that there's someone that seems to like current abyss but you're like the only one 21:06:56 I guess to summarize my thoughts, directly as a player (and one that's unemphatic to other player's opinions :P): I /really/ like the abyss's extremely unique "branchfeel", and I think its mechanical differences make it a place that inherently stands out from something like a slog of S's (nothing against S-branches besides slime pits, though ;) ). I agree that it makes sense to avoid something that, while unique, isn't boring, but I'm 21:06:57 worried that changes to abyss as it is currently that give back XP in some way (even limited) will reduce that feeling. 21:07:32 <06advil> did you play much in abyss before this change? 21:07:36 Yes 21:07:39 <06advil> I don't think it was lacking in "branchfeel" 21:08:30 Hm, okay: to properly summarize my thoughts: I felt like the XP removal gave it a unique quality and I don't want to see that uniqueness gone. 21:11:25 Also, to be clear, I would not at all complain in any way no matter which direction the abyss goes. I think the decisions y'all have made have always been sound, and I'm not going to be grumpy that you didn't cater to the literarily one player who liked a certain feature. :) 21:11:48 <10PleasingFungus> wow, always? 21:12:34 hey I've only been around since 0.27 21:12:49 I'm sure I'd be up in arms about removing MD if I had been around then! 21:31:52 03PleasingFungus02 07[corpseless_party] * 0.29-a0-425-g4694ec9f70: Fix necrotize + allies (again, for quivers) (Monkooky) 10(26 seconds ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4694ec9f70a5 21:31:54 Branch pull/2428 updated to be equal with corpseless_party: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2428 22:22:21 <09gammafunk> perryprog: The abyss is practically just one entire assemblage of unique qualities already. You would have to sit down an count all the ways its different from other branches. People have layered many unique aspects into the branch over many years. The context of this change is "how good is the compromise between the goal of preventing the abyss being a place for scumming with the notion that many players don't like spending time in a 22:22:21 place where xp/loot generation are disabled". No one set out to add this is a way to add uniqueness or new "feel" to the abyss, but rather to solve a particular gameplay problem. 22:23:39 <10PleasingFungus> cool things do sometimes come about unintentionally 22:23:47 <09gammafunk> yes, was just about to comment about that 22:23:55 Yeah, that's a good point—I suppose the whole xp-ness thing wasn't intended to be a design choice in the first place, but just a way to prevent scumming. While I agree there's a lot that the abyss has in ways of making it unique, I felt like this was more uh... unique in a unique way? I have no idea if that makes sense 22:24:01 <10PleasingFungus> if the player base loved no xp, we’d probably want to keep it regardless of balance etc 22:24:13 <09gammafunk> Uniqueness comes into play when a particular thing is mundane or lacks differentiation from some other similar aspect of the game, and sometime you add a thing that turns out to be interesting on its own, but it's kind of hard to make that case for no xp/loot generally 22:24:28 yeah, I think I agree with that now 22:24:39 <09gammafunk> no xp/loot is definitely unique, would agree with that 22:25:06 <10PleasingFungus> you know what no xp, no loot branch players like? 22:25:10 <10PleasingFungus> temple! 🙂 22:25:14 <09gammafunk> trove 22:25:16 :O 22:25:25 <09gammafunk> oh, trove has loot, rats 22:25:27 gammafunk, trove has no loot? News to mean 22:25:28 me* 22:25:29 <09gammafunk> I guess bazaar 22:26:07 <09gammafunk> trove does feature innovative no-xp gameplay 22:26:14 <10PleasingFungus> trove also sometimes has xp 22:26:17 <10PleasingFungus> once in a while 22:26:19 <09gammafunk> true 22:27:19 <09gammafunk> my mune went into a sewer that had basically nothing but potions and nothing but weak d:2 monsters that gave little xp 22:27:23 <09gammafunk> that's kind of like the abyss 22:27:33 <10PleasingFungus> lol 22:27:38 sewers are weird 22:32:08 weird idea that doesn't totally work, but could be interesting in an alternate universe: what about an abyss mechanic where whenever you enter it, your whole inventory gets reset (for as long as you're in the abyss, at which point you get your stuff back). You'd then be fighting significantly weaker enemies (though with your former skills, maybe?) and regaining some items (maybe the items you used to have?) as you explored 22:32:44 Sort of inspired by Breath of the Wild's Eventide island.