00:08:49 New branch created: pull/2144 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2144 00:08:49 03Antanishin, Ernest02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2144 * 0.27-a0-1549-g9ef9cf9c6c: Add tile_number_ratio_pixels option 10(11 minutes ago, 6 files, 12+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9ef9cf9c6c5f 00:10:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-482-gf8b08d3f47: Axe ironbound beastmasters 10(2 hours ago, 20 files, 18+ 113-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f8b08d3f470b 00:10:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-483-ga443631078: Make Blink Allies Encircling drain energy (ardl) 10(88 minutes ago, 3 files, 27+ 18-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a4436310788b 00:10:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-484-ge8cdce0153: Plop walking tomes in Depths 10(74 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e8cdce0153b3 00:10:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-485-gc45d5503f1: Clarify Conjure Living Spells desc 10(66 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c45d5503f1a6 00:10:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-486-g6302f7b1d6: Remove Depths:1 (mostly) 10(45 minutes ago, 14 files, 76+ 75-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6302f7b1d67c 00:10:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-487-g2322c75162: Fix cloud targeters (CarefulOdds) 10(34 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2322c75162bb 00:10:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-488-g706b79e7bb: Remove tarantellas' bite 10(29 minutes ago, 2 files, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/706b79e7bb5a 00:10:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-489-ga22a9363c6: Ban channeling when you can't cast (gressup) 10(11 minutes ago, 2 files, 6+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a22a9363c63b 00:10:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-490-g3788438092: Remove Tukima's Dance's power boost (hellmonk) 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 17-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3788438092d5 00:10:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-491-gc732d1d4b8: Make Abyssal Knights a bit dumber 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c732d1d4b891 00:10:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-492-g3d4abc6862: Switch Sting back to its old tile 10(84 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3d4abc686262 00:10:43 <08nicolae> is there a lua thinger somewhere in the lua for drawing map shapes like squares and lines and rectangles 00:19:47 <08nicolae> fill_area, you say... 00:28:36 04Build failed for 08master @ 3d4abc68 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1249965536 00:35:54 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-493-g98ec5579a3: Make allies avoid shooting you (Torax) 10(66 seconds ago, 3 files, 6+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/98ec5579a344 00:37:24 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-494-ge2d2658822: Fix the build 10(13 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e2d26588223d 00:42:22 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-492-g3d4abc6862 (34) 00:48:50 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-494-ge2d2658822 (34) 00:53:09 04Build failed for 08master @ 98ec5579 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1249996074 00:54:57 04Build failed for 08master @ e2d26588 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1249997508 00:59:11 -!- Guest24 is now known as twelwe 00:59:17 is majin bo supposed to absolutely suck for djinni? 01:10:41 <08nicolae> i discovered fill_area, make_circle, join_the_dots... my god... the power... it fills me 01:13:42 <08nicolae> you all were right to keep this from me 01:18:51 are you making vaults 01:20:44 <10PleasingFungus> does it suck? 01:24:25 <08nicolae> i am and not yet 01:24:45 <08nicolae> i just mean that my vaults have to potential to become even more insufferable 01:26:51 make_circle does sound life changing. remember with power comes re... re... whatever. something important. 01:27:02 <08nicolae> reasons to use the power, i think 01:27:11 <08nicolae> i can make a circle of any size... 01:27:32 oh invariably my brother i already know 01:27:42 like some of us knew already 01:27:49 about make_circle 01:34:37 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-494-ge2d2658822 (34) 01:37:32 <08nicolae> at some point i'm going to ask about the parameters to make_irregular_box, but for now i think i can sleep 01:55:40 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-494-ge2d2658822 02:53:51 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-494-ge2d2658822 02:55:24 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.28-a0-494-ge2d2658822 (34) 03:41:49 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4369-gf34790d913 03:54:14 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-672-gc155987a54 05:30:43 kush (L27 DsFE) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 05:31:09 kush (L27 DsFE) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 05:32:05 kush (L27 DsFE) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 05:45:56 <03wheals> !crashlog 05:45:58 <04Cerebot> 24037. kush, XL27 DsFE, T:78433 (milestone): https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/kush/crash-kush-20210919-093152.txt 05:46:40 <03wheals> seems like a game started before the removal of a depths level, so the guaranteed pan entrance was on U:3 still 05:48:11 kush (L27 DsFE) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 05:49:16 kush (L27 DsFE) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 05:52:59 kush (L27 DsFE) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 06:03:07 kush (L27 DsFE) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 06:04:27 kush (L27 DsFE) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 06:24:50 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4369-gf34790d913 07:53:01 kush (L27 DsFE) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 08:11:07 wow rip beastmaster 08:11:31 I always thought they were kinda cool thematically :( 08:12:36 ... I don't think Draconians are supposed to look like this https://i.imghurr.com/e/XTh5g0b9vr.png 08:13:22 <12ebering> if that's on local you've got a stale tilesheet, a rebuild should fix it (possibly needing to make clean) 08:14:02 yeah everything is hecked up, I'll do that. 08:14:48 perryprog: Also if you "make -j" I'm pretty sure there's a race condition there which mangles the tilesheet, although I've never been able to provoke it reliably enough. 08:15:05 I am doing that, so that could've been what happened 08:15:20 But I'm also not going to not do that, because I'm impatient 08:15:55 That half-and-half effect's familiar. 08:16:14 There's also this: https://i.imghurr.com/e/izIRZWiMZM.png 08:17:07 Poor guy's late for work and just sheepishly sidling into his tile and hoping you don't notice. 08:17:49 yup, make clean fixed it 09:33:00 kush (L27 DsFE) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 10:03:29 <10PleasingFungus> hm 10:03:39 <10PleasingFungus> that crash is bad and makes me feel bad 10:03:47 <10PleasingFungus> but not sure what the right fix is 10:04:13 <10PleasingFungus> should’ve added a minor tag..? 10:04:42 <12ebering> a minor tag that does a force fixup 10:04:46 <12ebering> there are some other old ones 10:12:57 New branch created: pull/2145 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2145 10:12:57 03DreamDust02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2145 * 0.28-a0-495-gd46e3904b8: nikola_laboratory 10(55 minutes ago, 1 file, 163+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d46e3904b8bd 10:16:57 PleasingFungus: looks like it's too late to do it with a minor tag but you could maybe use code similar to _ensure_entry in tags.cc to just place the pan entrance, rather than crashing 10:18:16 <10PleasingFungus> hrm 10:18:24 <10PleasingFungus> will take a look after breakfast 10:19:11 a fixup is probably better than a crash for something like this, since the crash just breaks the game permanently 10:20:34 one option if you can get it to work is to place the portal, save, and then crash -- so we get the report and the player has a working save; though sometimes it is tricky to accomplish 10:25:03 oh it looks like this maybe is already supposed to be doing that even 10:25:41 but the level needs to be adjusted 10:25:59 !source _add_missing_branches 10:25:59 Can't find _add_missing_branches. 10:26:10 !source tags.cc:1153 10:26:11 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc#L1153 10:27:00 so probably if those three fixup numbers are tweaked, that save might get fixed? 10:27:30 would be nice if these portal depths were a bit more centralized 10:33:36 <10PleasingFungus> oh, neat 10:33:42 <10PleasingFungus> and yeah 10:33:51 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-495-g9bb89235eb: fix: update fixup for depths portals to new values 10(40 seconds ago, 2 files, 10+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9bb89235eb25 10:33:58 <10PleasingFungus> slightly tricky because half the logic is in lua 10:34:15 couldn't say whether that will actually work, ime these fixups don't always 10:34:22 but at least the numbers are right now 10:36:22 I wonder if there's a way to have a less hardcoded/spoilery version of this, e.g. ensure that those portals are somewhere in depths but randomize it (maybe like overflow altars) 10:36:28 <12ebering> @Sastreii if you're looking for more tiles to do: quicksilver elemental and crystal echidna are both just recolors of old tiles 10:37:20 then the sanity check, if one is needed, would probably be against something also in the save generated at game start 10:37:45 olmar (L26 DDFi) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_abyss[54] didn't get generated. (Depths:3) 10:37:59 olmar (L26 DDFi) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_abyss[54] didn't get generated. (Depths:3) 10:39:08 kush (L27 DsFE) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 677: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 10:44:49 <13Sastreii> Yeah i kinda have a list, i saw that tainted leviathan is a recolored sprite too 10:45:10 <12ebering> Those are the old flesh golems!! 10:45:29 <12ebering> They might need a refresh but at least they aren’t a programmer butchery 10:45:33 04Build failed for 08master @ 9bb89235 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1250904377 10:46:09 <13Sastreii> Yeah but if i remember correctly that sprite is in swamp too, but it’s purple 10:46:27 <12ebering> !tile bloated_husk 10:46:28 <04Cerebot> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/crawl/crawl/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/mon/undead/bloated_husk.png 10:46:30 Oh, tests need updating for no Depths:5 I think 10:46:38 <13Sastreii> Correct 10:46:39 <12ebering> !tile tainted_leviathan 10:46:39 <04Cerebot> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/crawl/crawl/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/mon/humanoids/giants/tainted_leviathan.png 10:46:53 <13Sastreii> Yup that’s the same 10:47:31 <13Sastreii> If we’re fine with that tile i’ll not change it 10:49:01 <12ebering> I'll leave it to your judgement, but I think the husks are the recolour that need their own tile 10:49:14 lol there is also a test for these portal placements that was only working because the fixup was still wrong 10:49:20 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-495-g9bb89235eb (34) 10:50:19 <13Sastreii> You know that’s kinda what i was thinking 10:56:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-496-g613524ee8a: Shift orc weapons 1px left 10(19 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/613524ee8aa2 10:56:46 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.28-a0-495-g9bb89235eb (34) 10:58:06 <10PleasingFungus> https://mythipedia.fandom.com/wiki/Wight bloated husk inspiration 11:02:15 <13Sastreii> Sorry for that, i thought i’ve done the sprite correctly 11:02:54 <13Sastreii> Ok i’ll try to stick to this illustration the best as i can 11:03:20 PleasingFungus watch https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/613524ee8aa2 break the build 11:03:44 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-496-g613524ee8a (34) 11:09:45 04Build failed for 08master @ 613524ee 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1250936763 11:09:58 :O 11:14:55 <10PleasingFungus> test error: .../work/crawl/crawl/crawl-ref/source/dat/dlua/test.lua:23: No enter_pandemonium created at Depths:3 (map dumped to level-fail.map) test error: ...er/work/crawl/crawl/crawl-ref/source/test/unique.lua:14: Invalid depth for Depths in spec "Depths:5" test error: ...work/crawl/crawl/crawl-ref/source/test/uniquegen.lua:28: Invalid depth for Depths in spec "Depths:5" 11:17:18 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-497-g8b1ebaf2f3: ...fix the build? 10(14 seconds ago, 3 files, 5+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8b1ebaf2f32e 11:20:42 <06advil> oops, wrong channel, but that test misses one 11:20:49 <06advil> I had a commit also 11:21:03 <06advil> it is possible to run tests locally 😛 11:22:14 <06advil> why is it that whenever I run make test without having run make debug immediately before I get an arm64 link error (I assume this doesn't happen on intel) 11:23:25 What happens if you do make debug test 11:24:14 <06advil> that was sort of a rhetorical question, the answer to which being that the test target is broken 11:24:22 oh 11:24:33 "rhetorical bug report" :P 11:26:58 <10PleasingFungus> running tests locally..? sounds advanced 11:27:44 <06advil> (the answer is that that works fine because it literally builds the two targets in sequence, debug and then test...) 11:28:00 cmake when 11:28:03 I mean what, did someone say something 11:28:28 <12ebering> there was a long running PR that went to significant effort to set up cmake in a serious way for our project 11:28:31 <06advil> when someone fixes and then merges the dormant PR maybe 11:28:45 <10PleasingFungus> i’m on a cmake diet: if i see it i make it 11:28:47 <12ebering> it didn't finish, but if its something you believe in you can look at the PR for discussion of relevant issues and progress state 11:28:54 <06advil> there's also a cmake thing in a recent MSVC PR, not sure how general it is 11:28:59 Lol, PF 11:29:09 <06advil> it looked a lot simpler and more manageable though 11:30:06 advil, make test with no debug built fails on intel too 11:30:55 <06advil> with a link error? 11:31:32 yes 11:31:34 04Build failed for 08master @ 8b1ebaf2 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1250973842 11:32:48 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-497-g8b1ebaf2f3 (34) 11:35:57 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-498-g203a4d6027: fix: further update unique tests for shallower depths 10(44 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/203a4d60274b 11:35:57 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-499-g516edc7163: test: tweak a bunch of CI test output 10(4 minutes ago, 4 files, 30+ 40-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/516edc71637c 11:37:24 <06advil> maybe if make test detects that crawl needs rebuilt it just links it without rebuilding everything, and applies the wrong link rule 11:41:11 <06advil> ah, yeah debug gets translated into flags by checking $(MAKECMDGOALS), but test doesn't check the previous build target I guess 11:43:12 <06advil> this is a bit hard to work around the way things are set up 11:47:39 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-499-g516edc7163 (34) 11:48:37 04Build failed for 08master @ 516edc71 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1251002279 11:49:09 <06advil> huh 12:08:57 <06advil> that's only happening some of the time but it least relative to the test it seems to be a genuine bug, the generated map file is missing the zot portal (at least, at times when I can identify the vault and where the portal should go) 12:09:11 <06advil> hopefully this isn't happening in actual games 12:09:46 <06advil> I haven't seen it happen on the first iteration so it may be an issue with the test's level regen 12:12:47 <06advil> also I bisected and I don't think that error is the result of any of this last batch of commits, it's just random so hasn't consistently shown up in CI 12:16:10 <06advil> hm, I was able to get this to happen in-game with &ctrl-r 12:17:20 <06advil> uh, and maybe also in game 12:17:41 <06advil> seed 7761826393962572319 seems to have no zot entry in depths 4 12:18:37 <06advil> @PleasingFungus ^ 12:25:54 <10PleasingFungus> hm 12:26:06 <10PleasingFungus> sounds bad 12:26:12 <06advil> I haven't yet even figured out how the zot portal was guaranteed 😄 12:28:37 <06advil> BRANCH_ZOT, BRANCH_DEPTHS, 5, 5, 5, 27, should those 5s be 4s? 12:28:44 <06advil> some of them 12:29:27 <06advil> I think the first two based on lines like BRANCH_TEMPLE, BRANCH_DUNGEON, 4, 7, 1, 5,? 12:29:33 <10PleasingFungus> oh 12:29:39 <10PleasingFungus> probably 12:30:49 <06advil> yeah, that seems to be it, it fixes that example seed at least 12:31:24 <06advil> should I push? 12:33:30 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-500-g121bc3e445: fix: branch entry depths for zot and zigs 10(67 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/121bc3e445bb 12:33:35 <06advil> well, I did 12:34:46 yeah it's mindepth, maxdepth, depth, absdepth, 12:35:05 <06advil> I did actually read that but those are not very descriptive labels 12:35:07 I don't love how C++ structs are hard to read without your editor adding in labels 12:35:44 oh fair enough, I just figured they had meaning to someone who wasn't me 12:47:42 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.28-a0-500-g121bc3e445 (34) 12:47:43 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-500-g121bc3e445 (34) 13:30:55 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.28-a0-500-g121bc3e (34) 15:55:34 <05kate> i'm short on dev time for a while but good to see depths shrinkage! i'm keen to trim L and V a little bit as well so maybe i'll see if i can poke at those when i have access to my desktop again 16:04:54 <09gammafunk> 4 levels max depth allowed for non-extended branches? it's more likely than you think! 16:05:21 <09gammafunk> to be fair, tricky to implement for Dungeon branch 16:06:31 can I complain about how frustrating it is to roll the minus apt color on draconian for whatever your elemental spell school is 16:06:40 Because it's driving me nuts whenever it happens and it feels very un-crawly 16:07:15 Even if it's not a big impact, feeling like I'm getting a handicap for the rest of the game that I won't know about until I get to around D:5 is very frustrating. 16:08:03 <09gammafunk> disagree about it feeling un-crawly, don't think that statement could be justified in any convincing way 16:08:39 <09gammafunk> going from 0 to -1 basically has a negligible impact on your long term strategy 16:08:45 -2, to be fair 16:09:13 But it's still a detriment, and it can certainly have an impact pre-lair (from my limited experience, anyway) 16:10:06 <09gammafunk> nice, I'd forgotten it was to -2. That's a bit more substantial, but yeah it would not actually alter your strategy much 16:10:26 <09gammafunk> might take me from willing to go for L8/L9 spells to not willing to do that 16:10:48 <09gammafunk> the time that the change happens is actually pretty ideal in terms of decision making 16:11:53 <09gammafunk> I think it's good that it happens the way it does; you're not going to "abandon" your school if you started in that school, although you might transition to another school at some point soon after, depends on spells available 16:13:08 <09gammafunk> it's "uncrawly" in the same ways that's perceived as frustrating when you're a mage of class X that doesn't find their desired spells of that school in the time frame they want to find them, either because sif/veh don't cooperate or because you don't have those gods and just don't find the spells 16:13:40 <09gammafunk> it's only bad from the "game is not very straightforward" mindset, but not having every game be so straightforward is necessary for replayability 16:13:41 I would argue it's "uncrawly" because it doesn't make sense that a species has a feature that can randomly make your dedicated spell school suddenly harder to learn. 16:13:50 (And I would argue it's not fun to have happen, either.) 16:14:26 <09gammafunk> I explained why it does in fact make sense from a gameplay perspective 16:14:48 <09gammafunk> you would not want it to happen every game, but you will want it to happen for some games 16:15:23 wasn't causative complaining about a not so different thing with demonspawn the other day? 16:15:41 Yes, they were—getting melee deamonspawn mutations when they were a spellcaster 16:15:43 <09gammafunk> extremely plausible 16:15:45 I mean, that's just a risk of playing Dr or DS 16:16:01 Hm, I suppose having it as a "risk" of the race might make sense. 16:16:09 also complaining about the opposite, that most DS mut sets are for me;lee and don't benefoit a caster much 16:16:17 Well, you're going to be pretty invested if you're dedicated DrFE, for instance. I just rolled ice when I was at level five fire, which immediately knocked me back down to level four. As that's my only viable spell school considering I don't have any levels in any other spell areas (nor any other non-fire spells!), it's frustrating to me as a player that it takes away any agency I have in choosing potential weakpoints of my build. 16:17:10 I feel like a major design point (and this may not be true whatsoever) is I get to /choose/ what benefits/weaknesses I have when I go through the race/background options. 16:17:11 <09gammafunk> what is the potential weakpoint of your build that has emerged from this change? 16:17:47 <09gammafunk> and how has this change affected your immediate strategy 16:17:47 It's that you'll be crippled in a spell school that you exclusively have spells for. 16:17:52 <09gammafunk> that is not true 16:17:55 How so? 16:18:12 <09gammafunk> how is it true? how have you become crippled in that school? 16:18:16 sorry tthat's what you said, causative actually started out complaining about getting the only spellcasting mut set twice in a row as DSBe 16:18:25 <09gammafunk> are you suddenly ineffective at using fire magic? 16:18:48 gammafunk, well, yes. Not only did I drop a whole skill level in the school, I also learn it much slower. 16:18:56 <09gammafunk> do you not have strong fire spells available and are you unable to use them or unable to make the soon-to-be-castable ones transition to being castable? 16:19:13 <09gammafunk> that's not being ineffective at using fire magic 16:19:33 That was in response to the crippled question, sorry. 16:19:35 <09gammafunk> that's learning the fire spells (which are by far still your best option) somewhat slower 16:19:40 I agree that you aren't suddenly ineffective in the school. 16:20:34 <09gammafunk> Interesting thought experiment: would a mummy be crippled in using fire magic because they have a -2 apt? 16:20:59 <09gammafunk> I would not focus on the specific number of the aptitude, only on how the aptitude change actually changes your best strategy 16:21:04 <09gammafunk> that's the outcome that's interesting 16:21:25 But isn't that different, as that aptitude is something you "choose" at the very start of the game? 16:22:08 <09gammafunk> yes, definitely different, but you chose, at the start of the game, the aspect "one of these set of apts might decrease by -2, and another apt in that set might raise by +2" 16:22:41 <09gammafunk> I guess I should say "will" and not "might", but you get the idea 16:23:07 well, it's "might" because some colors doesn't have any minus apt 16:23:23 <09gammafunk> yeah, couldn't remember all the apt changes, purple doesn't change any I guess 16:23:25 <09gammafunk> ??purple draconian 16:23:26 <04Cerebot> purple draconian[1/1]: A form of draconian that has an affinity for spellcasting. Player character gets +1 aptitude in Spellcasting/Charms/Hexes/Evocations, and higher willpower than other draconians. Breath weapon is a bolt that dispels buffs. 16:23:31 <09gammafunk> ah, nm, they do 16:23:38 ??yellow draconian 16:23:39 yellow draconian[1/1]: A form of draconian that can spit acid (which has halved cooldown compared to most other breath weapons, and corrodes armour.) Player character gets no unique aptitudes. Gains rCorr at XL 7. Gets an acidic bite at XL 14. In 0.20, their acid spit is short range and splashes. 16:23:43 <09gammafunk> doesn't get any minus apt though 16:23:49 oh 16:23:55 reading hard 16:23:56 <09gammafunk> but yeah that's part of the whole point of this species 16:24:39 I dunno. It still seems weird to me for it to be a random factor that will sometimes throw a wrench and cripple your earlier game skill development, and I personally find it to be not a very fun mechanic. 16:26:59 <10PleasingFungus> it's perfectly reasonable to say "i don't enjoy this" 16:27:08 <10PleasingFungus> and to have a discussion about why that is, what exactly you dislike about it, etc 16:27:22 <10PleasingFungus> but you might want to consider not using the word "cripple" there 16:27:27 <10PleasingFungus> because it's factually inaccurate 16:27:43 Okay, fair point—it /feels/ crippling 16:28:00 <09gammafunk> Felids are bad because they have a -4 fun aptitude, and that's a 100% pure fact you can find in wikipedia 16:28:11 <10PleasingFungus> wow, imagine relying on the wiki 16:28:24 <09gammafunk> rip 16:28:51 Rude. My IRC cloak is wikipedia/perryprog :P 16:29:10 gammafunk, but that's predetermineeeeeed 16:29:39 I'd argue Dr is also predetermined in its behavior, and if you don't like it play some other species 16:29:49 <09gammafunk> exactly, just like the aspect that a draconian will get a random color and aptitude change....yes 16:29:53 yeah I mean 16:29:54 <09gammafunk> I even said that above 16:29:54 That's... true 16:30:06 <09gammafunk> it's pretty much unavoidably true 16:30:26 So I will make a strawman and ad hominem of that argument by stating that since you hate cats, you're wrong 16:30:30 I win. 16:30:33 <10PleasingFungus> i think it's most interesting to talk about expectations here 16:30:37 it could be considered a challenge species like mummy 16:30:54 how to make the most of what you get 16:30:59 <10PleasingFungus> we've established that dr is designed to present the player with a random modifier to apts and encourage them, gently, to adapt 16:31:16 Is Dr a challenge species if it's in the "Simple" section? :P 16:31:23 <10PleasingFungus> and that makes some people (including but not limited to) perry sad, because it sometimes weakens some existing skills 16:31:29 <10PleasingFungus> [some challenges are harder than others] 16:31:44 <10PleasingFungus> but my question would be: what do you expect dr to be? what version of dr would make you happy? 16:31:53 <10PleasingFungus> what is the expectation that's being contradicted here? 16:32:14 I think the mechanic of getting a plus apt in a random spell school is cool. I think getting minus-apt'd in my best spell school is bad-ish. 16:32:24 i think people go into gambles hoping for best outcomes and not considering worst outcomes 16:32:48 <10PleasingFungus> i see 16:32:52 I've had very fun DrFE games where I've gotten +air -earth for example, and that can certainly lead to certain adaptations of long-term plans by suddenly adding in some conj/air spells to my repertoire. 16:32:55 <09gammafunk> > Is Dr a challenge species no, the answer is no 16:33:15 <10PleasingFungus> imagine that dr started with -2 in all magic apts, and then, when getting a color, went up to +0 in most and +2 in one 16:33:20 <10PleasingFungus> would that feel better? 16:33:24 And the -earth isn't a big deal, because I didn't have an investment in -earth—it just means it's not something I'd likely end up focusing on, even if I got some good level 5+ spells in it 16:33:47 I mean, I think so, yes. In that case it feels like I'm being randomly rewarded instead of randomly punished. 16:34:01 But then you could argue that's just a matter of perspective, and it's the same case with the current version of Dr 16:34:39 <10PleasingFungus> here's another version of dr: starts with -1 in all magic skills, but goes up to +3 in a specific school when getting a colour 16:34:59 <05kate> getting red drac on an IE or white drac on a FE conveniently gives you a free new ranged attack against things that resist your starting spells, seems good to me imo 16:35:10 <09gammafunk> v. true 16:35:15 yeah that's the only nice part I've found of getting that 16:35:28 which... I guess all things considered makes it a pretty balanced mechanic 16:35:40 ugh why do y'all have to be so good at game design 16:36:00 <09gammafunk> and perryprog, your approach to skilling will improve over time as you play/win more, in which case that -2 apt in your fire school will not seem like such a big deal 16:36:18 Yeah, I'm pretty inexperienced at skilling, /especially/ spellcaster skilling 16:36:30 <09gammafunk> obviously new players don't really have that perspective, and probably a good number of them have similar feelings to yours 16:36:33 I don't even have a spellcaster that's finished Lair! :P 16:39:10 <09gammafunk> something something, advil's aptitude scale change branch 16:39:29 <09gammafunk> probably not going to get merged, but I appreciate the effort 16:39:52 metric_apts? 16:40:01 <10PleasingFungus> kate: and getting black drac on an EE gives you... 😛 16:40:32 <09gammafunk> gives you an approximation of the fun of disc of storms! (rip) 16:40:34 <10PleasingFungus> anyway, don't think that balance is the end of the discussion here 16:41:08 <10PleasingFungus> even if the current dr setup is 'balanced' - and i do agree it generally is - it's important to make it feel good to players 16:41:19 Fair point, PF—it may be balanced, but that does mean it may feel (mainly to someone like me who's inexperienced) frustrating to roll 16:41:34 Hmm... scaling apts to [0, 10] is actually kinda a neat idea 16:41:35 <10PleasingFungus> you are far from the first to lament the feeling of getting the "wrong" drac colour 🙂 16:41:51 that sounds like something I'd suggest though, so I'd be very cautious in merging it /s 16:41:56 Oh I'm sure 16:42:30 Just like how I'm sure people complain about never getting the right spell books/offers, always getting the worst muts, and all the other floorgod based stuff 16:45:36 03Implojin02 {GitHub} 07* 0.28-a0-501-geef7685dc3: Fix missing MUT_NOISE_DAMPENING punctuation (#2141) 10(6 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/eef7685dc370 16:46:21 03Implojin02 {GitHub} 07* 0.28-a0-502-g6c43a8f463: fix: allow unrand air enhancer stacking (#2134) 10(4 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6c43a8f4632b 16:47:09 Prakerore2 (L24 MiCA) ASSERT(you.on_current_level) in 'files.cc' at line 2040 failed. (Depths:5) 16:47:36 <09gammafunk> work on getting that greaterplayer cheevo if you can, it will give you a nice depth of player experience to draw from when thinking about design. Sometimes you can propose a simple change based on "feel" and it's right and there's a simple or at least obvious change to propose that works. But often you have think carefully about "what is the game asking of a player who's trying to win, here?" And if you don't have a fairly will 16:47:37 developed idea of how to objectively answer that question, design gets pretty frustrating pretty fast. Your answer may not completely or even very correct just because you've won all of crawl's species and classes a single time (because video games are hard), but it's much more likely to be close to correct. 16:49:38 <05kate> !crashlog 16:49:40 <04Cerebot> 24048. Prakerore2, XL24 MiCA, T:87686 (milestone): https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Prakerore2/crash-Prakerore2-20210919-204649.txt 16:51:31 "greaterplayer cheevo"? 16:51:57 <05kate> i guess that's maybe fixed by the most recent commit, and the crash there is trying to exit zot into a U:5 that doesn't exist? 16:52:02 <09gammafunk> ??greaterplayer 16:52:03 <04Cerebot> greaterplayer[1/2]: Players who have won every currently available to play race and class. Lifetime membership once you get in! 16:52:13 lifetime membership?! Wow 16:52:46 And yeah, I'm doing the best I can to emphasize that I am /horribly/ inexperienced at this game, and that nearly everything I mention isn't because I think it's "unbalanced" but because I feel or think that it's fun/un-fun. 16:53:04 As much as I wish I could be, I am not coming from a place of Informed Game Design™ 16:56:16 Prakerore2 (L24 MiCA) ASSERT(you.on_current_level) in 'files.cc' at line 2040 failed. (Depths:5) 16:58:19 (Also I hope there isn't a version of greater player that requires a win with every single race+background combination... 648 wins is a lot) 16:58:30 <10PleasingFungus> there is a name for that 16:58:36 <10PleasingFungus> i think two people have done it now 16:58:42 <10PleasingFungus> plus a collaborative community account 17:00:31 ??greatergreaterplayer 17:00:31 I don't have a page labeled greatergreaterplayer in my learndb. 17:00:34 aw 17:00:58 <09gammafunk> there are a few additional people currently going for it that are near or greater than 50% 17:01:02 <09gammafunk> ??greatestplayer 17:01:02 <04Cerebot> greatestplayers[1/1]: Players who have won every currently available to play combo. Lifetime membership once you get in! 17:01:11 Prakerore2 (L24 MiCA) ASSERT(you.on_current_level) in 'files.cc' at line 2040 failed. (Depths:5) 17:02:30 What about every single combination including initial weapon choice!! 17:03:10 <09gammafunk> no reason to stop there: every single combo including weapon choice, god, and with 15 runes 17:03:18 <09gammafunk> could do unique number of runes but let's not be silly 17:03:33 <09gammafunk> !progress marvinpa|semitonal 17:03:36 <04Cerebot> marvinpa|semitonal progress: 95/660 (14%) 17:03:41 <09gammafunk> !progress 17:03:43 <04Cerebot> gammafunk progress: 100/660 (15%) 17:03:51 <09gammafunk> phew, I'm the active dev with the most progress 17:03:52 trog plus DEFE sounds fun 17:04:13 <09gammafunk> I consider elliptic to be retired 17:04:17 Might as well crypt third rune it too 17:04:45 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-502-g6c43a8f463 (34) 17:10:27 Prakerore2 (L24 MiCA) ASSERT(you.on_current_level) in 'files.cc' at line 2040 failed. (Depths:5) 17:16:21 <10PleasingFungus> hrm 17:16:27 <10PleasingFungus> !crashlog Prakerore2 17:16:28 <04Cerebot> 4. Prakerore2, XL24 MiCA, T:87115 (milestone): https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Prakerore2/crash-Prakerore2-20210919-210952.txt 17:16:40 <10PleasingFungus> %git 6c43a8f463 17:16:40 <04Cerebot> Implojin {GitHub} * 0.28-a0-502-g6c43a8f463: fix: allow unrand air enhancer stacking (#2134) (30 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6c43a8f4632b 17:19:13 <05kate> i can't figure out exactly what the order of operations would be for it to occur in a non-wizmode game but i can repro that crash by &~ing to zot in 6302f7b1d6 and then trying to leave zot, then the crash persists after save upgrade 17:21:28 <05kate> !lm prakerore2 type=br.enter x=vlong 17:21:30 <04Cerebot> 158. 2021-09-19 20:43:08 Prakerore2 the Slayer (L24 MiCA of Ignis) entered the Realm of Zot on turn 87019. (Depths:4) 17:22:40 GEC (L25 DsAM) ASSERT(you.on_current_level) in 'files.cc' at line 2040 failed. (Depths:5) 17:22:48 <05kate> ah ok i guess a zot entrance does still generate in those earlier commits, i was getting confused as to how they even got into zot 17:27:21 <05kate> !lm gec type=br.enter x=vlong 17:27:22 <04Cerebot> 1773. 2021-09-19 21:22:24 GEC the Force of Nature (L25 DsAM of Fedhas) entered the Realm of Zot on turn 86071. (Depths:4) 17:35:48 <05kate> also i miss being able to generate runes with &o, using &% for them is the worst 17:36:21 <05kate> "get all runes" feels like a useful wizmode command maybe 17:40:03 <10PleasingFungus> i'm not sure i've ever generated a rune in wizmode 17:40:12 <10PleasingFungus> does seem reasonable tho 17:40:48 <09hellmonk> !progress 17:40:51 <04Cerebot> hellmonk progress: 116/660 (17%) 17:41:05 <09hellmonk> guess again bitch 17:41:54 <05kate> possibly just using &~ to go to whichever branch works fine anyway and i didn't need to be making runes to use the zot portal, but &~ feels like it maybe does weird things sometimes so i wanted to be testing as close to a normal game as possible 17:49:53 <09gammafunk> winscummer 18:02:22 <06advil> before that fix the zot entrance could generate on U:4, it just wasn't guaranteed 18:02:54 <06advil> I guess possibly the branch depth was still saved as 5 levels and hasn't been fixed up by anything? 18:04:23 <05kate> as far as i could tell from testing, any game that generates depths after 6302f7b but before 121bc3e will run into that crash when it tries to leave zot 18:04:59 <06advil> yeah, I closed the metric apt branch, the effort ratio in terms of player acceptance to payoff seemed too high 18:05:28 <06advil> sounds right, I bet brentry is saved wrong 18:05:29 <05kate> regardless of whether it then upgrades its save before entering or leaving zot i think? since once of the above crashes entered zot in 121bc3e but was still crashing on leaving it 18:10:24 <06advil> yes, in ng-init-branches.cc the branch intry is chosen from branch data 18:11:03 <06advil> it does seem like mindepth and maxdepth should be validated against the parent branch somehow 😄 18:12:04 <06advil> *entry 18:13:43 <06advil> I wonder why a zot entrance did sometimes generate on U:4; I guess it's possibly related to in the des it being described as Depths:$, but that apparently never got checked against what was chosen (trivially) at new game init 18:14:01 <10PleasingFungus> i'm helping 18:14:05 <10PleasingFungus> [stress testing?] 18:24:51 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.28-a0-502-g6c43a8f463 (34) 18:27:34 GEC (L25 DsAM) ASSERT(you.on_current_level) in 'files.cc' at line 2040 failed. (Depths:5) 18:32:24 <06advil> I'm not working on a fix atm, so anyone who has one feel free 18:32:43 <06advil> I think it needs a fixup when loading brentry in tags.cc 18:33:21 New branch created: pull/2146 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2146 18:33:21 03Gopall02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2146 * 0.28-a0-503-g56e55621b1: Prompt user when trying to enter ziggurat portal. 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/56e55621b1f0 19:38:53 -!- craigevi1 is now known as craigevil 19:44:20 GEC (L25 DsAM) ASSERT(you.on_current_level) in 'files.cc' at line 2040 failed. (Depths:5) 20:10:11 New branch created: pull/2147 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2147 20:10:11 03Antanishin, Ernest02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2147 * 0.27-a0-1549-g1dbd80dca8: Add tile_grid_pixels option 10(3 minutes ago, 4 files, 10+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1dbd80dca8f2 20:20:24 New branch created: pull/2148 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2148 20:20:24 03Gopall02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2148 * 0.28-a0-503-ga9d7339eb5: Update invent.cc 10(55 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a9d7339eb554 20:36:43 <05kate> oh hm, i guess my fix for this crash probably breaks saves from 2014 with 6-floor depths that transfer into the updated version 20:37:55 <05kate> i suppose it's probably fine to just check specifically for whether it thinks the entry is on depth 5 exactly, and then only do the fixup then 20:38:20 <06advil> Did that one have a minor tag? 20:40:03 <05kate> i don't think so 20:50:00 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 21:23:15 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-503-g83f2989fac: Fix crashes when attempting to leave Zot 10(59 minutes ago, 2 files, 8+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/83f2989faccd 21:26:21 <10PleasingFungus> kate, advil: thank you both very much for fixing things! 21:26:46 <10PleasingFungus> would be of more help but i ko’d my back this morning and have been trying to rest… 21:26:55 Get well! 22:01:23 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-503-g83f2989fac (34) 22:21:27