00:32:46 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-447-g1f95980246: Clarify Ash wrath (JF) 10(16 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1f9598024683 00:47:39 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-447-g1f95980246 (34) 01:34:35 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-447-g1f95980246 (34) 01:55:44 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-447-g1f95980246 01:59:18 Meatsprint refers to the Meatlord as Dispater 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12649 by aegolden 02:48:07 <12ebering> Think reaverb’s patch there causes a regression with assessing penance for intentional berserk w/*Rage items. Got a slightly bigger change in that direction so 02:49:45 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.28-a0-447-g1f95980246 (34) 02:53:49 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-447-g1f95980246 03:26:19 <12ebering> @Sastreii excellent tiles for the new hell monsters!! 03:48:57 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4369-gf34790d913 03:50:01 <13Sastreii> I’m glad you like them! I’m trying to work on wizlabs rn. 04:02:19 <13Sastreii> However, trying to imagine floor and wall tiles without actually see theyr arrangement it’s pretty hard. I mean, what’s the map like? It’s all long corridors? Large open space? Scattered small rooms? The place needs doors or it’s like Golubra? Those kind of information can be exploited in various ways. Wizlabs are fixed, they’re no randomly built, right? I have a lot of questions, but i can’t use wizmode in live servers 04:02:19 lol 04:03:36 <12ebering> You can download the offline versions which have wizmode enabled 04:04:10 <12ebering> Then travel to the wizlabs with &~ and build them with &P 04:05:00 <12ebering> When using &P to place the wiz labs if you type “wizlab_” at the map prompt it will list the available maps 04:09:36 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-660-g36d89c66be 04:10:07 <13Sastreii> Yeah but the offline version hasn’t the new ones 😅 04:11:34 <13Sastreii> Also, for some reasons on mac i have to use &L instead, otherwise the game crashes 04:12:36 <13Sastreii> That helped when i was doing moonbase rock tiles and moon troll 04:17:47 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 05:09:49 <12ebering> you can get em from https://crawl.develz.org/trunk/ 05:09:54 <12ebering> the latest development compiles 06:22:29 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4369-gf34790d913 07:00:42 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-448-g35c06b56df: Revert "fix: Clarity once again blocks *Rage berserk (Mantis 12640)" 10(76 minutes ago, 2 files, 11+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/35c06b56dfa8 07:00:42 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-449-ga6d6528d93: fix: clarify battlesphere description (12644) 10(30 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a6d6528d939e 07:12:39 04Build failed for 08master @ a6d6528d 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1226370020 07:14:55 <12ebering> flake 07:19:37 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-449-ga6d6528d93 (34) 09:03:31 Hmm... it seems Rampage+∞ stops WJC lunge from ever happening. Is this intentional? 09:04:43 <12ebering> currently all rampage stops any wjc moves 09:06:15 Oh, even with a single square of separation? I thought normal rampage behaved fine with lunge in that case 09:06:47 If so, that's too bad, because Rampage+∞ is stupid fun :P 09:38:28 If repeat speed for keypresses is set high enough it can ignore --more--. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12650 by Yermak 10:52:55 <13Sastreii> Ty, unfortunately there’s no suitable version for us poor mac users😅 i’ll find a way to do this without references 12:20:40 <06advil> @Sastreii here you go https://www.dropbox.com/s/m7uvbh2fme51xg8/stone_soup-0.28-a0-449-ga6d6528d93-tiles-macosx-universal.zip?dl=0 12:28:37 -!- Guest85 is now known as twelwe 12:28:54 i like scorch spell. i like long blade 12:29:24 my dream is long blades have their base damage reverted and have a chance to apply a scorch-like debuff on hit corresponding with the weapon ego. would open long blades up to spellcasters 12:30:29 "a big, fiery blade" these things gotta have more flames on them than an arrow, or a dagger ffs 13:13:07 somewhat confused by the clarity commit sequence (I think several of the commit hashes in messages must have been wrong), but I think it really doesn't make sense to call *rage "intentional", no amount of rewording is going to get that one to be obvious to players 13:13:27 chei conduct seems like an entirely different issue 13:25:35 <12ebering> I have a follow up patch removing evoke berserk and increasing the frequency 13:26:17 ebering, can I complain to you that stat rot in hell might be a bit super extreme at the moment 13:26:43 <12ebering> Do you have a version hash, pf adjusted them very recently 13:26:46 Especially since as far as I can tell the only way to get rid of it is to grind in the abyss. 13:26:50 Yes, this is post-that change 13:27:03 0.28-a0-449-ga6d6528d93 13:27:13 <12ebering> Well, that’s not the only way; you can give up! 13:27:22 Lol 13:27:35 <12ebering> (Yes, that aspect is a known issue with the strategic effects) 13:27:55 But I'm getting easily pushed into stat zero effects with multiple -5 int's every few moments 13:28:23 I grinded in Abyss to get out of stat one, come back into Tar, and got something like three sequential int hits bringing me back down to -14 int 13:28:33 <12ebering> Also the commit removing +Rage changes the inscription 13:28:51 <12ebering> Are you fighting everything or diving? 13:29:06 diving 13:29:35 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.28-a0-449-ga6d6528 (34) 13:38:18 <12ebering> Species? 13:40:16 MiGl, and I'm pretty low on intelligence to begin with so I'm not too surprised I would get hit with stat zero, but it feels like it hit way harder than it should be 13:43:33 <12ebering> This conversation would be easier with a dump 13:43:54 Right. 13:43:57 <12ebering> But anyway, the abyss scum aspect is known and we’re chatting about it 13:44:20 https://gist.github.com/perryprog/00c6001f7cd33d0c54b9f1eef1ac3925 13:44:33 Cool. Because it's definitely not fun to do. 13:45:06 <12ebering> You’re wearing minus int gear… 13:45:20 <12ebering> And never once raised int 13:45:35 I raised int several times 13:45:54 And I switch out the minus int stuff when I need to :P 13:46:17 <12ebering> !stats migl 13:46:21 <04Cerebot> Starting stats for MiGl: Str 18 Int 5 Dex 11. Stat gain: sd/4 13:46:36 So three times 13:47:08 And for the record, I'm not saying "this is unfair, I made good choices in my gameplay" because I definitely didn't. 13:48:59 It's not necessarily should be Abyss. I used Zot for that purpose. 13:49:45 I already cleared Zot. 13:50:31 I was planning on doing a five rune game but realized I had good equipment and wanted to try Hell for the first time :> 13:52:37 I said it to note that if stat drain is still an issue, it's separate from abyss being a place to grind. 13:53:12 Ah, right 14:25:03 <13Sastreii> that's great! thanks! here's a dino for you 🦖 14:28:41 -!- Guest93 is now known as twelwe 14:30:55 <08nicolae> rename hell drain to wither or the like and make it disappear when you get the rune 14:31:44 make it permanent too so you cant just dip your toes into hell you really have to commit 15:07:40 -!- Guest62 is now known as twelwe 15:11:20 guys. FE is so fun. its an absolute blast to take positioning further into consideration during the early game and of course formicid makes it even better 15:12:32 <09gammafunk> dang, fun? we really screwed up big this time 15:12:39 <09gammafunk> good objstat indirect bug report: > Invalid brand on item scarf of see invisible, annulling. 15:13:20 whats with fun and you and you bringing it up to me like im anti fun 15:13:33 people tell me almost hourly how fun i am 15:13:44 it gets totally fucking annoying in fact 15:15:05 thats a fun fact btw 15:15:17 <09gammafunk> you have to admit that even the word "fun" takes up a lot of letters. Imagine the bytes we could save by removing it or by simply shortening it to the more natural sounding "fu" 15:15:39 "fu" would sound natural to a profane person like you 15:15:49 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-450-gd8b2e6da16: s/inflammable/combustible (FIQ) 10(22 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d8b2e6da166e 15:16:14 <09gammafunk> hrm, can't really see where a scarf of see invis is being requested 15:16:34 anyone saying fu takes a byte out of fun 15:17:13 <09gammafunk> at least it doesn't seem to be coming from the des side of things 15:26:49 <10PleasingFungus> could be something like "any armour ego:whatever"? 15:27:37 ah, good lead 15:33:05 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-450-gd8b2e6da16 (34) 16:02:19 <13Sastreii> It’s an intended feature the use of transparent doors and walls in tukima wizlabs? 16:03:21 <12ebering> yes 16:09:00 qazlal will protect me from a forest fire cloud but not the explosions right? i think this plan is fucked 16:09:01 yo gammafunk i just read https://github.com/crawl/crawl/issues/2088 it would be fucking hillarious if new AZ could target the audience. dare i say fun 16:09:48 The spectator is vaporized! Antaeus hits you!! 16:09:59 You die... 16:09:59 Save macros? 16:10:08 N 16:31:43 -!- Guest48 is now known as twelwe 16:37:17 <09gammafunk> Looks like still plenty of monsters getting placed in walls, probably particularly in Vaults branch, not sure where else it's happening: https://dpaste.com/2T66XYW8E 16:37:43 <09gammafunk> likely some byproduct of the Vaults room layout code 16:38:14 fr potions of Amontillado 16:39:04 buff passwall. this should be a feature. 16:40:01 Bcadren put wall-passing monsters back in thus digging into a rich vein of bugs even by their standards so IDK it would be a good idea 16:40:44 <09gammafunk> @hellmonk btw did you need anything done with the wanderer branch still? Just someone to look that over? 16:42:08 i want a wallpassing unique that can mark you in a way thats permanent and cant be removed until they're dead 16:42:24 a mark only the unique can see 16:43:00 <09gammafunk> %git greaterwanderer 16:43:01 <04Cerebot> hellmonk * 0.28-a0-253-g2bd06580aa: fix some wn logic (7 days ago, 3 files, 36+ 23-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2bd06580aa55 17:00:21 FR: cosmetic aura projecting next searing ray/flame wave hit pattern 17:00:38 default off in init 17:01:45 <09hellmonk> @gammafunk yeah just look it over, do some playtesting with some of the more esoteric/edge case species and see if it feels better than current 17:01:56 <09gammafunk> gotcha 17:05:07 <10PleasingFungus> twelwe: you can use the quiver targeter for now 17:05:16 <10PleasingFungus> for flame wave, anyway 17:05:18 <10PleasingFungus> idk about searing ray 17:05:35 someone said they were working that i forget who, thanks 17:06:38 i was hoping i could have a cosmetic range always in sight for something like hailstorm 17:07:02 the best i could personally figure out was mid range TSO piety 17:07:28 fucked, huh? comfort is a struggle 17:19:48 -!- Guest19 is now known as tw12we 17:28:15 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-451-ge692aea802: feat: remove evoked berserk, increase *Rage berserk chance 10(3 hours ago, 15 files, 40+ 99-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e692aea80228 17:28:15 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-452-g2fb25c9035: feat: combine berserkitis and item Rage 10(18 minutes ago, 2 files, 7+ 23-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2fb25c903574 17:32:49 <02|amethyst> good news, KaoNedong is happy to relicense his art under CC0 17:33:29 <02|amethyst> once I get official confirmation, I'll make his Menkaure painting a splash screen 17:36:03 <05kate> removing evoked berserk sounds good to me but i do think *rage should probably be rarer and possibly removed from some of those unrands with the new design of basically guaranteeing you berserk in every combat, it's never been the kind of interesting downside you can work around for the most part really 17:37:28 <05kate> obviously it fits for the zealot's sword and bloodlust/wrath of trog but maybe it'd be good to come up with something different for leech and bear spirit 17:38:13 <12ebering> yeah. the rarity for randarts is simply *Rage plus +Rage 17:38:29 <09gammafunk> maybe give bear spirit +Flee instead, shoutouts to old bears 17:41:00 <05kate> maybe leech could get harm, that sounds fun 17:41:26 <05kate> vampiric synergy... 17:41:27 <12ebering> Harm needs a swap penalty 17:41:41 ebering> done :-) 17:42:08 <05kate> was thinking old style harm with *drain, yeah 17:42:21 <12ebering> oh yeah 17:43:28 <09gammafunk> yeah I think I like old style harm better anyhow 17:44:18 <09gammafunk> interesting with new drain, wonder how that plays out; *Drain is a pretty good amount of drain as I recall 17:44:20 04Build failed for 08master @ 2fb25c90 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1227375038 17:48:08 <05kate> i do think the inscription should keep the * also, since that's inscription shorthand for "this thing has a random chance of happening under x condition" 17:48:39 <09gammafunk> yep 17:49:58 <05kate> i guess +blink is actually one of the other few remaining evoked abilities, i wouldn't miss that one either personally 17:50:49 <09gammafunk> there's still +Inv for scarves, I use that frequently 17:51:10 <05kate> tends to make for weird ring swap situations when you happen to find it, could also restrict it to nonswappable equipment but i don't think it's a very exciting ARTP 17:51:27 <05kate> ah yeah, the commit mentions +inv too 17:51:53 <09gammafunk> agree that +Blink isn't particularly interesting; it's moderately so and is somewhat convenient for certain ranged attackers, just not usually to the point where I'm prioritizing it 17:53:12 <05kate> inv is in a slightly weird place too i guess, i don't hate the scarf but it's one of those things where it's sort of odd that it's stuck around for so long as spell/ego/potion (and maybe the spell is the one that shouldn't exist, of those three) 17:54:44 <09gammafunk> I'm sure you've seen them, but KaoNedong also has a bunch of other nice renditions. In particular the newer one of Ignis they did was great. I have most of them saved to use as streaming splash images, maybe the asmodeus one would also be good? I'd have to check to see if others are recognizable enough. There's one that's a shrike sitting on a dragon corpse, which is cute, but it's a little hard to realize what it is, exactly, unless 17:54:44 you're well versed on crawl monster lore 17:55:04 <02|amethyst> yeah 17:55:21 <02|amethyst> going for just one right now, but it sounds like he would be happy to relicense more if we want 17:55:41 <02|amethyst> his Ignis kind of reminds me of the Shadows from Babylon 5 17:56:19 <02|amethyst> and I do love the shrike, but agree that it's a bit obscure 17:56:51 <09gammafunk> I have to say that I legitimately like using +Inv and the drain cost tradeoff ends up being fairly interesting, in that you can overdo it and end up with significantly less MHP for a short period of time. Combat while invisible is pretty interesting, especially since there's often a mix of invis and sinv monsters, so using it effectively has a lot of nuance you can see when you have a bit more systematic access to it. The +inv 17:56:52 requires a hefty amount of evocations in order to be good in terms of an acceptable fail rate, and maybe it actually balances itself better than the spell does 17:57:08 <09gammafunk> With the spell, once you have the skill, you're pretty much free to use as much as you want, which is sort of less interesting 17:57:40 <05kate> yeah, the spell feels like it's in the same sort of tier of things as haste spell, it just sort of got a free pass because it's only ridiculously broken for a narrow set of characters rather than for every character 17:57:42 <09gammafunk> obviously it is even more skill than +inv though; but I find I really need 10-12 evo to use +inv a good deal throughout a game, so it's not free, unlike most evo stuff 17:57:49 <09gammafunk> right 17:58:08 <09gammafunk> as odd as it sounds, I sort of feel that the spell maybe be the least interesting instance 17:58:26 <02|amethyst> Yeah, before the recent draining changes I would have offered the ego as the one to be sacrificed 17:58:41 <02|amethyst> but now it kind of feels like the spell is the odd one out 17:58:57 <02|amethyst> sad as that might be for some builds 17:59:51 <05kate> and while i do like moving away from evoked abilities being tied to items generally, i don't think that needs to be a strict rule or anything and +inv is definitely the one of them that works the best 18:01:29 <09gammafunk> just gotta come up with some cool new necro/hex/tmut/tloc 4 school spell if we remove invis spell 18:08:42 <09hellmonk> just move invis to level 7, ez 18:10:58 <|amethyst> you joke, but we have no player Hexes 7 spells, so that's not entirely unreasonable 18:11:52 <09hellmonk> (I think invis as a spell works a lot better than haste did, though it does still have the buff spell problem) 18:20:47 -!- tiobot is now known as Guest1127 18:35:55 <05kate> hmm, i can't think of anything particularly exciting for hat of the bear spirit to replace *rage, i wonder if it's interesting enough without it as just a hat of gspirit, will++, rn+ 18:36:12 <05kate> i notice it's right next to dyrovepreva in art-data.txt, which is also sort of boring 18:37:12 i think KaoNedong's mennas and ignis pictures would make nice splash screens if they're willing to license it 18:41:02 oh forgot about the mennas one 18:54:59 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-453-g0f1c06f14f: Fix compilation 10(44 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0f1c06f14f67 18:54:59 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-454-g73f125ba1b: Remove an unused parameter 10(38 minutes ago, 6 files, 6+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/73f125ba1b9f 18:54:59 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-455-gb5e7e19f26: Give the *Rage inscription its star back 10(32 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b5e7e19f2626 18:54:59 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-456-gcbfb7e9818: Remove the Elemental Staff's Will++ 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cbfb7e9818f1 18:54:59 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-457-gce0acab4f2: Replace Leech's *Rage with Harm 10(36 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ce0acab4f2d0 19:14:48 04Build failed for 08master @ ce0acab4 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1227507369 19:24:47 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-457-gce0acab4f2 (34) 19:25:49 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-458-g4afc6ae9f4: Fix tag_upgrade compilation 10(5 minutes ago, 6 files, 2+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4afc6ae9f422 19:51:25 New branch created: slowerlower (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/slowerlower 19:51:25 03hellmonk02 07[slowerlower] * 0.28-a0-458-gcfc2f753b9: adjust the slow spell 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cfc2f753b951 19:52:42 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-458-g4afc6ae9f4 (34) 19:56:23 <13Sastreii> walking tomes. in order, divine, frostbound, earthen and crystal 19:56:24 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/886762196896460820/Schermata_2021-09-13_alle_01.52.36.png 19:56:24 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/886762199232696370/Walking_tomes.zip 19:56:32 New branch created: pull/2129 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2129 19:56:32 Branch pull/2129 updated to be equal with slowerlower: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2129 20:05:04 <09hellmonk> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26644 20:05:12 <09hellmonk> thinking about this mechanic 20:05:13 04Build failed for 08slowerlower @ cfc2f753 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1227597509 20:06:53 <02|amethyst> yeah, it's kind of weird that standard advice is that "Faith on Veh is actively bad 20:07:02 <10PleasingFungus> does that person mean gnoll? 20:07:25 <10PleasingFungus> i like the current mechanic for reasons described, and think it helps differentiate from sif 20:07:29 <09hellmonk> I assume so? 20:07:31 <10PleasingFungus> but don’t feel extremely strongly 20:08:14 <09hellmonk> "Faith on Veh is actually even worse mechanically on that, because you can take it off repeatedly to prevent the spell offer from changing 20:09:24 <02|amethyst> yeah, I was thinking that was probably possible, but hadn't actually tried 20:22:48 <05kate> i also sort of like how it's distinct from actual book/direct-to-library gifts but can't really defend the faith interactions yeah, they're sort of messy. dunno if there's some weird way to make it not interact with faith, that might be trying too hard to overcomplicate it in the name of rescuing it 20:23:24 <09hellmonk> what if veh gave fewer gifts but gave them as a choice of 1 spell to add permanently to your library out of like 2 or 3 20:26:30 <02|amethyst> alternatively, Veh could give you gifts directly to memory without taking slots, but fewer of them and you lose them entirely if you switch gods 20:27:07 <02|amethyst> (assuming you haven't also found them in books) 20:33:23 <05kate> oh hmm, i do kinda like that. gets rid of the ?amnesia tension and moves it a bit further in a djinn-ish direction but i don't think that's bad here since the general mechanic of "here's what you get, figure out how to make the most of it" is a fun one, and under veh you still have to deal with how you're training spell schools 20:34:44 <05kate> and makes you probably have to stick with veh to keep hold of your L8/9 spells (but with the upside of you getting access to more of them at once, assuming you still get offered multiples in the final gift) 21:17:04 <02|amethyst> okay, I have the menkaure and ignis splash screens prepared, but I'm not sure what to do about the Asmodeus one, because the background is very similar to the colors of logo.png 21:18:38 <09gammafunk> it's possible that one works less well; what about the mennas one? 21:18:41 <02|amethyst> also got a relicense on Caustic Shrike and Fire Dragon; and Mennas, the Voice of Zin 21:18:45 <09gammafunk> need to remind myself what that looks like 21:19:35 <09gammafunk> oh, the sigmund one is really funny too imo 21:19:53 <02|amethyst> didn't ask about that one, but yeah 21:20:08 <09gammafunk> hrm, I see the mennas one 21:20:17 <02|amethyst> I feel like the Asmodeus one could work, with some shadows or something on the text 21:20:43 <09gammafunk> acid dragon is pretty good too 21:20:44 <02|amethyst> I'll leave that for someone with more digital image talents than me 21:21:47 <09gammafunk> fair 21:22:00 <09gammafunk> also this one of asterion by I forget who rules 21:22:01 <09gammafunk> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/886783744105656330/unknown.png 21:22:24 <09gammafunk> maybe not splash screen appropriate but still good 21:22:31 <02|amethyst> to repeat, the ones he relicensed as CC0: Menkaure, Prince of Dust; Ignis, the Dying Flame; Asmodeus, Prince of Gehenna; Mennas, the Voice of Zin; and Caustic Shrike and Red Dragon 21:22:51 <02|amethyst> I have that in an email if there's somewhere to deposit it for legal purposes 21:23:00 <02|amethyst> I'm doing the first two right now 21:23:32 <09gammafunk> yeah that's a good question, to be honest; back when someone contacted a bunch of people for the rtiles repo, I'm not sure if they recorded the acceptance messages either 21:28:51 <02|amethyst> hm, even with optipng and advpng, these are quite a bit bigger than most of the splash screens (on par with title_arbituuh_tesu.png, but even bigger file size). I could scale them down, but will leave that for someone else 21:48:46 <09gammafunk> I have a local branch with some changes to the Race class recommendations (the set of recommended classes after you choose your race), but I realized it probably needs some fellow dev feedback, and it's a lot easier to get said feedback with a spreadsheet. Hence here's one that should be straightforward to use: 21:48:49 <09gammafunk> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U0unv0C62p9QPCTGwydmS7hclen2CfCWq3SlZWHNtRc/edit?usp=sharing 21:49:16 <09gammafunk> The first sheet is a summary of trunk and is protected, but the second one can be edited (it's currently a copy of the trunk one) 21:50:04 <09gammafunk> interesting trivia, exactly one species recommends Ar, which is Sp, and Sp also recommend Cj, which is kind of funny cuz it has the lowest achieved conj apt (-3) 21:50:39 <09gammafunk> not that it's a bad conjurer or anything, but maybe we shouldn't recommend it all the same (like AE seems a more reasonable choice) 21:51:33 <09gammafunk> one reason I wanted to make some changes is the relatively large lack of balance in these recommendations: IE recommended 15 times, AE 5 times. Be 17 times, etc 21:51:58 <09gammafunk> Obviously Be is good to recommend for a lot of species because it's easy and AK not so much, but maybe we could balance this a little more 21:52:26 <09gammafunk> I don't have a sheet made yet for the species recommendations when you choose a class, but I can do that eventually 22:02:40 03|amethyst02 07* 0.28-a0-459-gaa0f46ea79: Two new splash screens by KaoNedong 10(34 minutes ago, 4 files, 7+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aa0f46ea7920 22:16:26 -!- Guest92 is now known as twelwe 22:18:15 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-459-gaa0f46ea79 (34) 22:54:38 <10PleasingFungus> balancing between elementalists (which are sort of broadly similar still) seems like a reasonable goal; not sure about reducing be recs 22:56:43 <09gammafunk> yeah in my branch I kind of went big on "balance", but also realized that it's perhaps not the point of recommends. I do think reducing the number of Be recommends could be good and spreading some of that to others. 22:57:13 <09gammafunk> the mages seem ok to keep relatively balanced among each other, but don't think they need to be perfectly so 22:59:01 <09gammafunk> another thing was that it seems to me that Ar sort of belongs in Warrior mechanistically, as it's very similar to Br. It doesn't offer a weapon selection like the other Warriors do, but neither does Br. It feels somewhat thematically different from the traditional idea of Warrior, but players similarly to those 22:59:04 its probably impossible to have them perfectly so without apt adjustments. bring earth magic down for some species 22:59:42 <09gammafunk> well we don't want to perfectly balance them, certainly; just a bit more balance would be good, really mostly looked at IE vs AE probably 23:00:35 <09gammafunk> there's also some spread in how many recommends we make per species, from 5 to 9 23:00:46 <10PleasingFungus> i can see that argument 23:09:42 surely there are some species that could get an Ar recommend 23:09:55 <10PleasingFungus> i don't think that's really very important 23:10:14 <10PleasingFungus> as long as all classes have recommendations for species, which of course they do 23:10:22 <10PleasingFungus> we don't need the reverse 23:11:07 <10PleasingFungus> not clear to me what negative impact this current disparity has, other than looking unaesthetic if someone makes a spreadsheet of it :p 23:11:44 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-460-g91930fd77e: Walking Tome tiles (Sastreii) 10(14 minutes ago, 4 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/91930fd77e3c 23:12:13 <10PleasingFungus> nice! love all the variety and differences between them - the different patterns on the covers! so cool 23:13:09 <09hellmonk> cant we just rec like ddar or sth 23:13:15 <09hellmonk> until dd is ramove ofc 23:13:48 <09gammafunk> yeah, I think there actually is an impact in that recommending Ar for some species will induce more people to try Ar, since we have species chosen first by default 23:14:34 <09hellmonk> seems fine to rec DD and maybe Ko for that, just based on apts 23:14:43 <09hellmonk> idk what you rec beyond that point 23:14:50 <09gammafunk> my only goal with this project is to get SpCj unrecommended 23:15:03 <09gammafunk> literally nothing else matters 23:15:12 <09hellmonk> "my only goal is this one line change" 23:15:22 <09hellmonk> two weeks and an experimental later 23:15:48 <09gammafunk> I also find it kind of funny that Fe has so many recommends 23:16:11 <09gammafunk> like DE I get it having 9, it's just "all the mages, all of them", and while I might like there to be fewer, it makes sense 23:16:28 <09gammafunk> but I do wonder why someone was like "there needs to be a lot of felid recommends" 23:16:33 <09hellmonk> fe should have 0 recommends 23:16:41 <09gammafunk> probably an emergent aspect of community development 23:16:44 <09hellmonk> mu should only rec mo and ck 23:17:11 flame acolyte 23:17:14 for Ar I think Fe, Gn, Ko, maybe DD could make sense; I do see PF's point in that the goal of the job highlights on that screen is presumably to present to new players a form of "pick this to have a better chance of winning", and so trying to ensure overall parity among job recommends maybe isn't an actual good thing to pursue 23:17:17 <09gammafunk> 0 ck recommends, sadge 23:17:26 MuCK 23:17:49 <09hellmonk> oh, gn makes sense as an ar recommend, fits the gn theme in addition to the apt being super nuts 23:17:58 <09hellmonk> like that one 23:18:04 <09gammafunk> yeah I don't think parity is a goal, but one other aspect of what we recommend is that they're not all easy, but some are just "interesting" 23:18:13 <09gammafunk> in terms of synergy with the species 23:18:15 <09hellmonk> muck is extremely interesting 23:18:21 i 23:18:26 <09hellmonk> can you put a new color for like "anti recommend" 23:18:33 <09gammafunk> good idea 23:18:42 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-460-g91930fd77e (34) 23:18:43 <09gammafunk> we should make the best recommend sparkle or something 23:18:45 <09hellmonk> like "this combo is incredibly bad but also very unique in its badness" 23:18:45 i mean, DgWn as a recommend would probably make someone smile, but 23:19:06 <09gammafunk> hell, have a little clippy-like avatar pop up: "HI! It looks like you're trying to choose a combo!" 23:19:27 <09hellmonk> "are you really sure you want to play DDAK instead of literally any other background" 23:19:54 <09gammafunk> yeah, the reason why Ar probably has only 1 is that it's classed as "Adventurer" along with Wn and (now) De, and I think we try to avoid recommending those classes since they break some of the usual class rules in some way 23:20:10 <09gammafunk> but Ar isn't really like Wn and De in that regard 23:20:28 <09gammafunk> and CK we don't recommend because Xom 23:20:29 looking at it through that lens i really don't think Ar fits with the likes of De / CK 23:20:47 <09gammafunk> yeah I was arguing above to move Ar to "Warrior" group 23:21:19 <09gammafunk> thematically it might feel off to some to think of it as a warrior 23:21:32 <09gammafunk> Wasn't monk not a warrior at some point too? 23:21:43 <09hellmonk> don't remember 23:21:45 yeah before it got piety 23:21:52 <09hellmonk> I know some tavern people wanted to class monk as zealot 23:21:59 <09gammafunk> want to say it may have been adventurer; these groups probably had more of a thematic justification in the past 23:22:45 <09gammafunk> why not just take out the ecu altar altar on d:1 step and make mo get a random god, boom, content 23:26:02 <09hellmonk> do you really want another background for people to savescum tho 23:26:18 <09hellmonk> give mummy the monk bonus and remove monk, then you can play mumo delver 23:26:38 <09gammafunk> wasn't serious obviously, however we've put ecu altars on a lot of D:1s now, so if savescumming is a big concern, we've made it worse 23:26:46 no, just combine delver and monk. monk playstyle is already about diving to that altar you want early 23:27:39 <09gammafunk> guess that's rightly called startscumming, not savescumming. But yeah, startscumming doesn't feel like a massive concern to me in general, I guess 23:28:13 de is probably better than monk for early desired god worship anyway. you can get to temple on like turn 10 23:28:18 <09gammafunk> d:1 ecu altar might be a more elegant way to do what I joked about anyhow, since players have an option