02:42:39 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.28-a0-245-g639a1a48b9 (34) 03:21:29 <12ebering> ah exciting! 03:31:12 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4305-g797f4774c3 04:07:38 <12ebering> @kate minor concern with imp cap 1 and it’s interaction with Wz starts 04:09:02 <12ebering> One crimp can be a bit frustrating to work with to get the most out of them. 04:09:37 <12ebering> But ready to believe that either a) it’s worth the cost or b) it’s actually fine or both 04:09:55 <12ebering> Otherwise very excited to chip away at the XP penalty!! 04:17:42 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 04:27:03 <12ebering> they were not but good quote ideas 04:53:11 Hi all! Day off work today (woo) so will be tinkering around and splatting some characters in case anyone wanted to brainstorm or discuss any of the PR content I have open 04:54:13 Most likely I'll be working on the dreamshard necklace and some of the github comments posted to date 05:16:33 <12ebering> I'm not sure it all got relayed to the PR, but the reaction to the dreamshard necklace is that the complete package is perhaps too out there, but there are several cool ideas/elements that could work their way in 05:16:46 <12ebering> You should be able to find the conversation in nthe log (see channel topic) 05:23:46 great, will go have a read through the log and get myself up to speed 05:38:08 sounds like if there's a way of simplifying the design and making the item a more meaningful trade-off (basetype) then that would be at least stepping in the correct direction? 05:40:32 or is this more of a 'shelve the item, but keep the theme and discussion it spawned for future similar submissions'? 06:09:58 <12ebering> definitely for starters making the item a more meaningful trade-off (basetype nothing) is a first step 06:10:17 <12ebering> the portal branch is quite a bit of complication for a rare area that is seen only once 06:10:26 <12ebering> and only if you use a rare item 06:22:42 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4305-g797f4774c3 07:49:12 yeah makes sense, the idea was always that wearing the amulet would be a tradeoff so basetype nothing makes a lot of sense 07:56:04 is it inherently bad to have complicated/involved areas or code that only have a very small chance to be visited in a given game? Seems like that would only be a bad thing if the existence of that complexity had some kind of impact on the player, and the main thing would just be to ensure that when rare complexity was encountered, it was sufficiently intuitive to not be spoilery. Or do you mean more from a codebase/maintena 07:56:04 tive that a lot of complexity for a tiny portion of the experience isn't ideal. 08:03:33 03amcnicky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2078 * 0.28-a0-190-g15681f2247: balance: change base type to AMU_NOTHING 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/15681f2247e5 08:10:05 In any case, I've updated to base type nothing and am thinking through all the other suggestions. I'll try to think of a way to retain the flavour and spirit of the item whilst steamlining the idea to something a bit less radical. 08:41:35 Oh yeah, the necklace. It is very spoilery. Mainly the fact that it should be told in amulets description that the escape area transforms you by force. Especially as an escape item it is very easy to think about fleeing the situation and not realising its drawback. In my view the idea of forced transformations would work better as Sprint map. 09:15:01 Is the forced summons aspect as big of a deal when the player won't actually be engaging in combat? Alternative approach: forms in the dream world are just visual, and don't impact, for example, the player's hp total or meld items 09:16:12 maybe it is problematic to expect the player to suddenly recognise that they should be running away and not fighting 09:16:45 butterfly vs ogre with a butterfly net won't end as well as their muscle memory might expect! 09:17:16 Early Abyssment already requires the player to recognise that 09:26:56 <12ebering> Re: spoilers; at an early stage that’s not really a helpful objection. Descriptions can be elaborated on. 09:28:39 <12ebering> Re: complexity. This is both a code complexity for payoff question (a lot of maintenance potential for one rare item), and a player facing complexity. If your item description is going to be an essay or require the player to spend a lot of time with ?/ to comprehend (looking up the branch form and monster descs) it’s a red flag 09:29:10 <12ebering> Especially if it’s single use: no opportunity for experiments! 09:32:17 Yeah that makes sense *puts thinking cap on* 10:54:09 03ebering02 07[hot-hells] * 0.28-a0-268-g35d6a85104: feat: new monster, stoker 10(9 minutes ago, 8 files, 50+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/35d6a85104b0 10:54:09 03ebering02 07[hot-hells] * 0.28-a0-269-g088a56eaa3: fixup! feat: new monster, searing wretch 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/088a56eaa346 10:54:09 03ebering02 07[hot-hells] * 0.28-a0-270-g3ff79cfe08: fixup! wip: first pass at geh spawns 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3ff79cfe0820 10:54:11 Branch pull/2064 updated to be equal with hot-hells: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2064 10:57:23 <10PleasingFungus> fr: unique stoker called Bram 11:17:44 <08nicolae> more like... toker 11:18:25 <08nicolae> cocytus monster: torpor snail but more so. slows you down. freezing clouds. eats your dog. 11:20:17 <08nicolae> mega wind drake that can blow you over deep water, giving you intense drain as you try to keep yourself airborne, like the existing mechanic for when flight runs out but it's inflicted on you 11:20:39 <08nicolae> abominable snowman 11:20:51 <12ebering> I've got wendigo already planned 11:21:51 <12ebering> big R or V with claws, vamp bite, and turn simulacra-in-los-into-mega-iceblast 11:21:58 <08nicolae> noice 11:23:56 <12ebering> and a blue n flavoured on the buddhist hell of the burst blisters, where it is so cold that flesh blisters and the blisters burst; the blink allies encirclign was a good suggestion, and probs also fcloud 11:24:11 <10PleasingFungus> i’m required by law to endorse this 11:24:32 <12ebering> need a good name for this n 11:24:46 <08nicolae> oh yeah the buddhist hells are fun inspiration 11:24:48 <08nicolae> probably would suck to spend any time in, but 11:24:58 <08nicolae> what does the blue n do, specifically 11:25:03 <08nicolae> re: blisters 11:25:22 <12ebering> oh, i didn't have a mechanical hook 11:25:28 <12ebering> just figured I'd use it for flavour 11:25:34 <12ebering> and give em blink encircling and fcloud 11:25:39 <12ebering> which seems like a nice combo 11:25:44 <08nicolae> when you hit it the blisters burst and spray you with gross freezing blister juices 11:25:59 <12ebering> AF_GROSS 11:26:02 <08nicolae> yeah! 11:27:14 <08nicolae> blister burster 11:29:39 <08nicolae> Mahāpadma (摩訶鉢特摩) is the "great lotus" Naraka. The entire body cracks into pieces and the internal organs are exposed to the cold, also cracking.[5] Life in this Naraka is 2.56×10^21 years long. damn, that would probably mess with the turn counter 11:30:28 <08nicolae> cocytus monster that freezes various organs, inflicting tempmuts similar to when ru makes you chop off a thing 11:30:49 <08nicolae> Frozen Hand, Frozen Eye, Frozen Foot, Frozen Brain (the last two aren't from ru but you get the idea) 11:31:55 <10PleasingFungus> oh no brain freeze 11:31:56 <10PleasingFungus> ouch 11:32:46 <08nicolae> the worst of all of cocytus's torments! 😈 11:33:12 <12ebering> frozen hand would be p brutal to players 11:33:15 <12ebering> I like it 11:33:30 <08nicolae> yeah! YEAH 11:33:34 <10PleasingFungus> hrm 11:33:44 <08nicolae> if players don't like it then maybe they shouldna gone to hell 11:33:46 <10PleasingFungus> i'm the guy using a 2h weapon who just can't do anything now 11:33:54 <10PleasingFungus> double if i'm ash 11:33:55 quick trip to gehenna to warm it back up? 11:34:08 <12ebering> yeah unsure if that one's actually a good idea 11:34:10 <08nicolae> nah, i imagine it would unfreeze after a lil bit, maybe after you kill the guy 11:34:24 <12ebering> the way muts are implemented it would force-unequip 11:34:42 <08nicolae> maybe just a Slow status combined with Slay - X or something 11:34:51 <08nicolae> your hands are too frozen to swing! 11:34:59 <12ebering> but! frozen eye giving -Eye tempmut and frozen brain (int -6) are good 11:35:19 chattering teeth makes reading scrolls take longer 11:35:21 <08nicolae> plus then you can get players dying of brain freeze 11:35:33 <08nicolae> this guy knows what's up! 11:36:04 <10PleasingFungus> what i'm saying is: we don't currently have a -melee status and i'm not convinced we should 11:36:06 <12ebering> well keep in mind the hells are each getting a branchwide status 11:36:29 <08nicolae> yeah, "can't read scrolls as fast" kind of bites on gehenna's planned -Scroll gimmick 11:37:04 <09hellmonk> If u put something with mark in coc players couldnt cancel pot it, just throwing this out there for no reason 11:37:08 <12ebering> anyway v into the flavour of freezing organs as a tempmut inflicting thing 11:37:32 <10PleasingFungus> mark presumably does less on small levels (which might be good?) 11:37:59 <08nicolae> put ghost moths in tar imo 11:40:08 <08nicolae> for the blistering hell guys: Nirarbuda (刺部陀), the "burst blister" Naraka, is even colder than Arbuda. There, the blisters burst open, leaving the beings' bodies covered with frozen blood and pus.[5] Life in this Naraka is 4×10^13 years long. give them, like, a gross-flavored version of ozocubu's armour or sanguine armour 11:40:40 tar Mothra unique could be fun if you did that 11:40:57 <08nicolae> also does chinese have like a derivational suffix for "inhabitant of", you could do like... Nirarbuda- 11:42:16 <08nicolae> a moth who made an ancient pact with ereshkigal 11:43:09 confused by sources of light 11:46:30 <08nicolae> casts dazzling unflash 11:51:07 <08nicolae> i do like the flavor of the stoker and the blister guy, of "poor bastard who is suffering eternally in hell and now has to deal with This asshole" 11:56:53 <08nicolae> dante getting a guided tour from virgil, "here are the Violent, condemned to spend eternity in boiling blood and getting shot by centaurs", and then some elf runs through, blasts the centaurs to bits, and comes back holding a magic rock with a rune on it, virgil is just like "i have to ask you to leave that part out" 12:12:25 Regarding frozen hand: heavily penalize attack speed? 12:13:05 chattering teeth might make more sense to increase spell failure rate, but there might be something that does that already 12:17:56 I'm trying to do some poking around at Heavenly Storm, but I can't actually find where the slay/ev boost for being in the golden dust cloud is actually implemented. Does anyone know loosely where it'd be put? 12:21:04 Oops, just found it. 12:22:48 Huh—so you can super easily get +15 EV and +15 slaying just by doing like three or so whirlwind attacks, since every single whirlwind hit increments WU_JIAN_HEAVENLY_STORM_KEY. 12:23:38 Or a wall jump that hits multiple targets 12:24:03 That feels a bit odd as that's a really high amount of /sustainable/ survivability for a panic button, right? 12:33:24 Uh... this is wrong 12:35:11 What part? 12:35:14 Or all of it? 12:36:04 I mean, it's obviously wrong because you don't get +15 slaying by making a handful of Whirlwind attacks. 12:36:59 (I think it is wrong _because_ taking a turn to do a martial attack increments the counter by one, not every to-hit attempt during that turn) 12:37:13 Nah, it's every target 12:37:49 !source god-passive.cc:1475 12:37:50 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/god-passive.cc#L1475 12:39:39 So starting at +5, if you get three whirlwind attacks that /each/ hit three targets, that's +14 slaying and +14 ev. I /think/ (not sure on this at all) that the key also gets decremented by one every turn, so that would actually end up being a total of +11 slaying and +11 ev. 12:41:17 But I noticed this when I was doing vaults and because I was marked I was getting swarmed by basically everything and their kitchen sink, so I had an unlimited supply of monsters I could jump onto to keep up the strength of heavenly storm. 12:41:32 Which might not be a bad thing, but it's kinda interesting. 12:44:53 OK, it's less wrong than I thought, basically just the decay that keeps you getting to +15. But the decay is only every 20-30 auts 12:45:15 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c9e437d3e552fd379d54d2107dad4ae86b84afe4 changed it to be capped at +15 but with linear decay (it used to scale with the amount). 12:45:42 Then Whirlwind's pin was removed (making WJC very sad, although I see why it had to go) 12:46:17 And then 165b36e3f06539abfed72f26c39acefc8855867a gave the bonus EV which made Heavenly Storm a lot better again. 12:46:36 Yeah the EV bonus is what really lets you just... not die 12:47:13 Eh, with old Heavenly Storm I found the ability to marmalise anything inside 2 squares really quickly while being immune to anything further away also let you not die. Mostly. 12:47:26 Truuuue 12:47:40 I do kinda wonder how interesting it would be to have a martial arts move to swap positions with an adjacent monster, doing something like 80% damage of a normal attack to that creature. 12:48:03 But the positional aspect of having to make sure you don't get into a situation where you're stuck is also really fun. 12:48:10 (Aside: I heckin' love WJC.) 13:22:54 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.28-a0-245-g639a1a4 (34) 15:59:29 <03wheals> clearly these hell branches are the time to bring back moths of suppression 16:20:14 <08nicolae> moth of depression. sometimes when you do a command it just says "You just don't feel like it right now..." and waste a turn 16:26:35 03ebering02 07[hot-hells] * 0.28-a0-271-g684ec6b7c8: squash! feat: persistent hell effects: rot tartarus (Lici) 10(6 minutes ago, 5 files, 15+ 20-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/684ec6b7c847 16:26:37 Branch pull/2064 updated to be equal with hot-hells: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2064 16:54:20 <12ebering> Next up is the coc monster set then generic late zombie overhauling 16:58:34 <12ebering> thinking about looking at that wild old infiniplex tar layout that decayed into miasma, possibly as a rare tar layout, possibly using a half opaque “thick miasma” so that the visual boundary of the walls still works but tar stuff can come through 17:05:15 <10PleasingFungus> oh i remember that 17:25:15 <08nicolae> i would like to know more 18:24:03 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.28-a0-245-g639a1a48b9 (34) 18:37:54 <05kate> discovered some very fun bits of qazlal upheaval trivia 18:39:53 <05kate> did you know that for it was originally able to destroy walls if it rolled BEAM_FRAG flavoured damage! and the code for it all still exists in multiple places but an unrelated bugfix a month after the ability was implemented made it never destroy walls in the last however many years qazlal has existed for 18:41:23 <05kate> and the other good thing is this extremely confusing implementation of monster upheaval's radius_iterator, that's existed since it was a monster ability 18:41:27 <05kate> !source mon-cast.cc:5306 18:41:28 <04Cerebot> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc#L5306 18:42:28 <05kate> extremely unclear to me what the intention was here with the splash and adj bools but the effect is that it iterates over radius 2 but only ever affects squares in radius 1 18:44:59 How long ago was Qazlal? I've got a decade-old bug. 18:46:11 <05kate> early 2014 18:46:31 7 years is pretty good. 18:47:54 <09gammafunk> that's interesting, but I had recalled that upheaval did destroy walls, since it seemed to be directly based on fragmentation (aka LRD), but then I'd check and it wouldn't. Wonder if I managed to play a Q game in the experimental (or just trunk) and saw the wall breaking and just always remembered that since I didn't really play Q much at all after 18:49:18 <05kate> yeah, when i noticed the code for it existing it did ring a vague bell, but it looks like it didn't work since one of the early batches of Q bugfixes 18:50:00 <09gammafunk> I recall disaster area has a way of carefully creating explosions to avoid hitting the player that creates weird biases against locations closer to you as a result. Instead of just making the player immune to the explosion, which would probably work better. At least I think it still does that 18:50:32 <05kate> i also just noticed the way that salamander tyrants use upheaval code but with switch (0) instead of switch (random2(4)) for the choice of flavour, good hack imo 18:50:42 <09gammafunk> wow 18:52:29 <05kate> making the player immune to upheaval explosions might also be good in that currently, hitting the power threshold where it becomes occasionally radius 2 can sort of be a downside 18:52:33 <09hellmonk> yes, specifically it can't target any square where an upheaval centered on that square could hit you 18:53:19 <09hellmonk> disaster area also has other weird nonobvious biases though tbf, it's got a pretty complex little algorithm for targeting the upheavals 18:54:43 <05kate> i did notice a bunch of complaining in the roguelikes discord about Q powers being too expensive and imo they're about right and most other gods are just way too cheap, but probably just letting the player be immune to self-upheaval would be a fine thing to buff 19:05:59 <09gammafunk> oh, I guess disaster area just does a bunch of upheavals, another thing I forgot 19:23:30 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-246-gcf53092a1b: Remove some dead Upheaval code 10(22 minutes ago, 2 files, 5+ 51-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cf53092a1b59 19:23:30 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-247-gb8bfbab023: Shuffle squares for monster Upheaval animation 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b8bfbab02380 19:32:59 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-247-gb8bfbab023 (34) 19:59:08 New branch created: pull/2090 (16 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2090 19:59:09 03mgdelmonte02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2090 * 0.27-a0-1063-g21693acb1f: mgd-debug 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/21693acb1fb2 19:59:09 03mgdelmonte02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2090 * 0.27-a0-1064-g616cfe6960: Revert "mgd-debug" 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 0+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/616cfe69608e 19:59:09 03mgdelmonte02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2090 * 0.27-a0-1283-g9f6fb3821b: Merge remote-tracking branch 'upstream/master' 10(2 months ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9f6fb3821b60 19:59:09 03mgdelmonte02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2090 * 0.27-a0-1304-g92952e5fa8: Merge remote-tracking branch 'upstream/master' 10(10 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/92952e5fa8dd 19:59:09 03mgdelmonte02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2090 * 0.27-a0-1306-g4f92f54c73: Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/mgdelmonte/crawl 10(10 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4f92f54c73de 19:59:09 03mgdelmonte02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2090 * 0.27-a0-1551-g9d742d07a1: Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/mgdelmonte/crawl 10(6 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9d742d07a18f 19:59:09 03mgdelmonte02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2090 * 0.28-a0-86-g97012700b0: Merge remote-tracking branch 'upstream/master' 10(3 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/97012700b0ab 19:59:09 03mgdelmonte02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2090 * 0.28-a0-80-g3af56d6db5: fix 10(3 weeks ago, 5 files, 5+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3af56d6db53b 19:59:09 03mgdelmonte02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2090 * 0.28-a0-88-g04ed2841fe: Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/mgdelmonte/crawl 10(3 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/04ed2841fe0f 19:59:09 03mgdelmonte02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2090 * 0.28-a0-249-g90af8f6cba: Merge remote-tracking branch 'upstream/master' 10(2 days ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/90af8f6cba47 19:59:09 ... and 6 more commits 20:11:14 <09gammafunk> we might want to work on our commit messages 20:11:14 <09gammafunk> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/879880564423929866/unknown.png 20:13:41 <10PleasingFungus> seems good to me 20:18:18 <09gammafunk> woah, til: > When referring to a button or key on a keyboard, the clear key is a key found on Apple computers with numeric pads. It clears input like the C button does on a calculator. Other keyboards may replace the delete or Del key with a clear button that performs the same functions as a delete key. 20:30:27 Wow, same here... and I use a full width apple keyboard all the time 20:50:36 <09gammafunk> I checked for it on the one mac keyboard I have but no num pad, so no chance of a clear key I'm afraid 21:41:12 <06advil> I do have a clear key 21:46:27 <09gammafunk> that's great 21:46:52 <09gammafunk> I noticed that we don't define CK_TAB, and just seem to use '\t' in a couple places where the key value is needed, which seemed somewhat odd to me 21:47:22 <09gammafunk> I'm only running into this because I'm making a webtiles "game client" in python to allow controlling qw and to maybe enable some other automated stuff 21:47:35 <09gammafunk> so I have to figure out how to handle game input and keyboard in general 21:48:59 <09gammafunk> but the python keyboard module I'm using doesn't pre-define a clear key, which I guess makes sense as it's MacOS specific. And it has a generic key def for "command key" which seems to be platform-specific one like the windows key on windows keyboards and the actual "command" key on Mac ones 22:11:25 03mgdelmonte02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2090 * 0.28-a0-264-gbfbd945e4a: whitespace 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bfbd945e4ab2