00:50:48 <09gammafunk> fr: berserk grants flight 00:51:01 <09gammafunk> I mean "you fly into a fit of rage" 01:12:21 <10PleasingFungus> lol 01:34:34 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-128-gcbb86046cc (34) 01:55:42 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-128-gcbb86046cc 02:19:21 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.28-a0-128-gcbb86046cc (34) 02:53:50 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-128-gcbb86046cc 03:03:52 <12ebering> !tstats 15 03:04:04 <12ebering> !tstats 15 t-fast 03:05:07 <04Cerebot> Stats after 15 days (t): 2395 players, 707 runers, 388 winners, 1463 wins, 63099 games, winrate 2.32%, total player time 2y+337d+11:18:20. 03:05:23 <04Cerebot> Stats after 15 days (t-fast): 2395 players, 707 runers, 388 winners, 1463 wins, 63099 games, winrate 2.32%, total player time 2y+337d+11:18:20. 03:05:51 <12ebering> !tstats 15 t0.26-fast 03:06:12 <04Cerebot> Stats after 15 days (t0.26-fast): 2263 players, 851 runers, 452 winners, 1633 wins, 51260 games, winrate 3.19%, total player time 3y+39d+22:34:42. 03:31:06 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-623-g03914b80fa 04:17:44 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 06:24:03 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4274-ga1336d5a09 09:30:25 ebering: imo `crawlranter` is a stunt/troll account and not worth engaging with 09:31:02 in case you haven't been following their posting pattern on the sub 09:32:43 03Matthew Daley02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2065 * 0.28-a0-125-g37a4dd3749: feat: Show turn counts and real game times in lobby 10(22 hours ago, 4 files, 39+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/37a4dd3749e2 09:37:15 <12ebering> heh 09:42:41 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-129-g027562a8d8: refactor: improve Menu action api a bit (take 2) 10(46 seconds ago, 3 files, 79+ 51-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/027562a8d8fb 09:47:17 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-129-g027562a8d8 (34) 09:47:42 <12ebering> my post isn't really for crawlranter but for other readers 09:57:35 fair, I think that it is a troll of the type that feeds on responses though 09:59:29 I haven't quite figured out if it's someone who believes what they are saying or not, I'd give 30% that it's an alt of someone doing mediocre performance art tho 10:30:34 ugh my historical spell data is really messed up by the inconsistent use of spflag::monster before 0.26 10:34:17 <10PleasingFungus> historical spell data? 10:48:01 it's the data for the removedness post I never finished really 11:15:12 was hellfire burst ever castable as a regular player spell? 11:16:01 I saw some commit log comments implying it was, but maybe they didn't mean that 11:24:29 03ebering02 07[hot-hells] * 0.28-a0-125-g72521cc9de: feat: only place one up and down stair in the hells (wip: generator) 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 16+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/72521cc9def4 11:24:29 03ebering02 07[hot-hells] * 0.28-a0-126-gef41cd11f4: feat: only place one up and down stair in the hells (wip: misc vaults) 10(37 minutes ago, 4 files, 13+ 41-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ef41cd11f459 11:24:31 Branch pull/2064 updated to be equal with hot-hells: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2064 11:26:24 <10PleasingFungus> my understanding is that players only ever got hellfire as some kind of special effect, like dis staff or ds mut 11:26:44 <10PleasingFungus> but could be wrong, certainly 11:28:20 <09hellmonk> I'm not aware of any way for the player to have cast the burst version 11:29:02 <09hellmonk> re: attract potion, my only arg is that I think the attract stab tech was cool 11:32:48 <09hellmonk> and unlike other move effects its limited by virtue of being an item, so doesnt allow infinite free stabs 11:46:29 <10PleasingFungus> i think i'm probably going to just add more explicit justification in the item description re not waking monsters 11:46:36 <10PleasingFungus> to address kate's point re unintuitiveness 11:46:42 <10PleasingFungus> did someone say lore? yes. i did. 11:47:05 04Build failed for 08hot-hells @ ef41cd11 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1132939297 11:47:26 <10PleasingFungus> i also think the attract tech is cool because it can go horribly wrong if other guys wander by while you're trying to stab 11:47:39 <10PleasingFungus> and suddenly you have attract on during a fight 11:48:19 <10PleasingFungus> @ebering i have my thinking goggle on re hell enemies; will do my best pondering, though no results guaranteed 11:49:01 <05kate> if it can be flavoured somehow as like, translocating them rather than physically pulling them through space then i could see that being more justifiable 11:49:18 <10PleasingFungus> re dis, here are some extremely old notes on a monster idea i had rust demon - throws asphyxiating clouds of rust/corrosion, iron shot, af_corrode - iron demon? fast-moving, a couple of af_corrode attacks rust cloud - ac-ignoring asphyx damage, corrode (checks body armour - checking weap would be annoying) rustcloud, corrbolt, LRD, metal shards (if that does frag 11:49:19 damage) could use very short duration acid? or: verdigris moth/golem? (nonliving flier, tosses rust clouds and hits to af_corrode) both??? 11:49:33 <10PleasingFungus> sure, good idea! that's also more consistent with how it interacts with deep water/lava in the way 11:50:01 <10PleasingFungus> i think i decided not to do this thing because asphyxiation checks are goofy 11:50:16 <10PleasingFungus> but maybe there's a good idea in there somewhere 11:50:44 <10PleasingFungus> hrm, i wonder how obnoxious it would be to plop a bunch of tloc clouds down for each move 11:50:46 <10PleasingFungus> might be fine? 11:51:35 <05kate> also buffs the stabbing use case by blocking los, extremely powerful... 11:51:46 <10PleasingFungus> ha 11:51:56 <05kate> possibly that might interfere with it pulling things though? 11:52:01 <10PleasingFungus> yeah, that worries me a bit 11:52:03 <10PleasingFungus> would have to fiddle 11:52:09 <10PleasingFungus> does need you to be pulling a few things 11:52:16 <10PleasingFungus> to actually block los 11:52:17 <05kate> although that'd probably only show up on very busy screens yeah 11:52:28 <10PleasingFungus> obvious test case: zigs 11:54:07 <10PleasingFungus> anyway can't work on this right now 11:54:11 <10PleasingFungus> retired from crawl for another 11:54:12 <10PleasingFungus> !time 11:54:12 <04Cerebot> Time: Aug 15, 2021, 03:54:12 PM, UTC. The 2021 0.27 tournament ends in 4 hours, 5 minutes and 47 seconds. 11:54:14 <10PleasingFungus> 4 hours 11:58:44 <05kate> oh also, i discovered a different secret powerful stabbing tech that i won't ruin! 11:58:58 <05kate> turns out qazlal is the new best stabber god 12:02:29 <10PleasingFungus> do monsters get distracted by thunderclouds? 12:18:05 <09hellmonk> spen of qazlal confirmed optimal 12:21:51 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 12:35:49 <05kate> much sillier than that! it's using new air elementals from elemental force to paralyse things 12:36:53 <05kate> sort of a good weird knock-on effect i think, since that always felt a bit less exciting than the other Q actives 12:41:22 <09hellmonk> that's actually huge brain 12:41:28 <09hellmonk> need to do another spen of qaz run now 12:42:12 <10PleasingFungus> oh, i totally forgot about that 12:42:15 <10PleasingFungus> and yeah sounds good 13:06:49 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.28-a0-129-g027562a (34) 13:38:18 have they re-added potions of stabbing yet? 13:41:35 <10PleasingFungus> i've been thinking about it 13:41:39 <10PleasingFungus> there is a certain amount of popular demand 13:41:45 <10PleasingFungus> by that i mean lici asked me nicely 13:42:42 <09gammafunk> obvious dev agenda to appeal to realtime speedrunners, just like that one reddit guy foretold 13:44:17 <09gammafunk> come to think of it, I've not managed to use attraction in any way since it was added. I'm sure that's in part because it's new. 13:44:22 <09hellmonk> attract pot + 20 stealth is basically a stab potion 13:45:54 <10PleasingFungus> 🙂 13:46:01 <09gammafunk> Putting this here in case there's any dev interest. It's a plot showing "proportion of players who died at XL N out of those who made it to XL N or further" for tournament games for this and last release, looking only at players who were goodplayers before the respective tournament started, and where the game wasn't quit nor went over 3 runes. 13:46:02 <09gammafunk> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/876522131645677578/dcss_difficulty_0.png 13:47:06 <09hellmonk> interesting to see that spike at xl11 13:47:16 <09hellmonk> what the hell is happening there 13:47:53 <10PleasingFungus> back in 0.19, the same spike was there - we believed it had to do with entering lair 13:47:53 <09gammafunk> @PleasingFungus regarding what you said, I'm not sure we do want shrink the left side, but I can definitely see raising the right side. I guess it's also worth mentioning the usual caveats of looking at player data as a proxy for objective difficulty. And even if your concern is player experience over objective difficulty, this is still including lots of games played with silly conditions and by 13:47:54 people who do very silly things 13:48:03 <10PleasingFungus> big early-game killcount winners in 0.27 - sigmund: 2.9% -> 4% - jackal: 3.1% -> 3.8% (don't understand this) - endoplasm: 0.6% -> 2.8% - Robin: 1.4% -> 2.1% 13:48:19 <09hellmonk> didnt jackal spawn rate go up a lot 13:48:19 <09gammafunk> yeah, the spikes are entering lair, second spike after is going for run, final spike is zot 13:48:36 <09gammafunk> interesting, wonder why the robin bump 13:48:40 <09gammafunk> oh melee 13:48:43 <09gammafunk> yeah buffed g 13:48:44 <10PleasingFungus> oops yeah sorry, was leftover from old message 13:49:28 <09hellmonk> spike at entering lair feels kind of weird to me, I don't think lair 1 is really a difficulty jump over D:10 13:49:30 <10PleasingFungus> the analysis that led to me sending this initially was what helped me figure out that jackal stock was up up up 13:49:38 <09gammafunk> @hellmonk yeah but you are good at crawl 13:49:48 <09hellmonk> am i though 13:49:56 <10PleasingFungus> that surprised me because i didn’t see a bump in hob or gob kills 13:49:57 <09hellmonk> after this tournament I'm not so sure 13:50:05 <10PleasingFungus> i didn’t do a breakdown tho 13:50:08 <09hellmonk> going back to the sigma grindset 13:50:20 <09gammafunk> @PleasingFungus interesting, maybe I'm wrong, but I have to believe it's due to more melee kills. Maybe directly robin herself? 13:50:25 <10PleasingFungus> @?robin 13:50:25 <04Cerebot> Robin (g) | Spd: 10 | HD: 2 | HP: 13-19 | AC/EV: 3/8 | Dam: 5 | weapons, items, doors | Res: magic(10) | Corpse | XP: 15 | Sp: battlecry [!AM], throw ally [!AM, !sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 13:50:28 <10PleasingFungus> @??robin 13:50:28 <04Cerebot> Robin (g) | Spd: 10 | HD: 2 | HP: 13-19 | AC/EV: 3/8 | Dam: 5 | weapons, items, doors | Res: will(10) | Corpse | XP: 15 | Sp: battlecry [!AM], throw ally [!AM, !sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 13:50:38 <09gammafunk> she has a spear? 13:50:43 <10PleasingFungus> she did escape the nerfs 13:50:43 <09gammafunk> so maybe that's more a nerf overall 13:50:56 <09gammafunk> she does have a weapon, right? 13:50:57 <10PleasingFungus> how would it be a nerf…. 13:51:03 <09gammafunk> cuz before delay was low 13:51:06 <10PleasingFungus> ??spear 13:51:06 <04Cerebot> spear[1/1]: (polearms; +4 acc / 6 dam / 1.1 base delay / 0.5 min delay). A hunting weapon consisting of a wooden shaft with a pointed metal head fastened on one end. 13:51:12 <09hellmonk> I think she's probably slightly harder, shouldnt have caused that big of a jump though 13:51:12 <10PleasingFungus> delay was 1.05 before 13:51:14 <10PleasingFungus> now 1 13:51:20 <09gammafunk> yeah but that's base 13:51:24 <09hellmonk> she didnt benefit from delay iirc that rounded down, did get the other weapon changes 13:51:28 <09gammafunk> monsters had delay based on hd-influenced skill 13:51:33 <10PleasingFungus> no 13:51:34 <10PleasingFungus> wrong 13:51:37 <10PleasingFungus> not for years 13:51:39 <09hellmonk> hd had nothing to do with monster weapon delay 13:51:42 <09gammafunk> hrm, what am I remembering 13:51:45 <10PleasingFungus> or possibly ever 13:51:55 <09gammafunk> was it just totally fixed? but monsters didn't just have base delay, right? 13:52:04 <09hellmonk> it was average of base delay and 10 13:52:04 <10PleasingFungus> delay was avg of base and 1 13:52:10 <10PleasingFungus> ya 13:52:10 <09gammafunk> ah 13:52:21 <09gammafunk> ok, so in case of spear it evened out 13:52:31 <10PleasingFungus> so a smaller buff than other monsters, just the 1d3 13:52:41 <09hellmonk> yes, but robin would have gotten the 1d3 and also monster weapon enchant working properly 13:52:47 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * cikiller=robin 0.26 s=killer% 13:52:48 <04Cerebot> 2686 games for * (cikiller=robin 0.26): 1440x a goblin (53.61%), 701x Robin (26.10%), 539x a hobgoblin (20.07%), 2x a spectral weapon (0.07%), Robin the lindwurm (glowing shapeshifter) (0.04%), a polar bear (shapeshifter) (0.04%), Robin the snapping turtle (glowing shapeshifter) (0.04%), Robin the black mamba (shapeshifter) (0.04%) 13:52:51 <09hellmonk> so an extra 0.5 if her weapon was enchanted 13:52:52 <09gammafunk> the weapon enchant is interesting 13:53:02 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * cikiller=robin t s=killer% 13:53:03 <04Cerebot> 1063 games for * (cikiller=robin t): 523x a goblin (49.20%), 403x Robin (37.91%), 135x a hobgoblin (12.70%), a steam dragon (0.09%), Robin the hornet (0.09%) 13:53:16 <10PleasingFungus> yeah way more direct robin kills 13:53:18 <10PleasingFungus> hrm 13:53:26 <09hellmonk> still a lotta goblins though 13:53:28 <09gammafunk> my hunches are never wrong 13:53:34 <10PleasingFungus> sure 13:53:35 <09hellmonk> are her goblins special cased in any way 13:53:42 <10PleasingFungus> don’t think so..? 13:54:00 <09gammafunk> does she get good item weapon? just normal right? 13:54:07 <10PleasingFungus> anyway probably i’ll just cut her damage to match old values 13:54:07 <09gammafunk> her average enchant must be pretty low regardless 13:54:13 <09hellmonk> fine w/ me 13:54:15 <10PleasingFungus> normal enchant yeah 13:54:22 <10PleasingFungus> iirc 13:54:27 <10PleasingFungus> loot is helmet 13:54:27 <09gammafunk> I mean 13:54:48 <09gammafunk> well, I guess it's not a problem; maybe robin does have a pretty high kill rate right now 13:54:51 <09gammafunk> !lm goodplayers t-fast lg:urune<=3 !boring br.enter=lair x=avg(xl) 13:55:03 <09gammafunk> !killratio robin * t @goodplayers 13:55:04 <04Cerebot> 3830 milestones for goodplayers (t-fast lg:urune<=3 !boring br.enter=lair): avg(xl)=11.42 13:55:20 <04Cerebot> robin wins 9.854% of battles against * (t @goodplayers). 13:55:22 <09gammafunk> @hellmonk yeah you can see the spike right around then 13:56:01 <09gammafunk> if you broke it down maybe you'd see lair:6 as a major component of that; I looked at xl26 deaths vs xl27 deaths and there's something interesting 13:56:20 <09gammafunk> !lg goodplayers t-fast urune<=3 !boring xl=26 s=place 13:56:22 <04Cerebot> 115 games for goodplayers (t-fast urune<=3 !boring xl=26): 80x D:$, 7x Zot:1, 6x Zot:5, 3x Zot:4, 3x Zot:2, 2x Elf:3, 2x Zot:3, 2x Tomb:3, 2x Vaults:5, Abyss:5, Crypt:1, Crypt:2, Depths:2, Depths:3, Pan, Slime:5, Swamp:4 13:56:28 <09gammafunk> oh oops 13:56:31 <09gammafunk> !lg goodplayers t-fast urune<=3 !boring xl=26 s=place !won 13:56:33 <04Cerebot> 35 games for goodplayers (t-fast urune<=3 !boring xl=26 !won): 7x Zot:1, 6x Zot:5, 3x Zot:4, 3x Zot:2, 2x Tomb:3, 2x Elf:3, 2x Vaults:5, 2x Zot:3, Abyss:5, Crypt:1, Crypt:2, Depths:2, Depths:3, Pan, Slime:5, Swamp:4 13:56:37 <09gammafunk> !lg goodplayers t-fast urune<=3 !boring xl=27 s=place !won 13:56:38 <09gammafunk> but 13:56:40 <04Cerebot> 90 games for goodplayers (t-fast urune<=3 !boring xl=27 !won): 33x Zot:5, 9x Zot:4, 6x Zot:3, 4x Zig:24, 4x Vaults:5, 4x Slime:5, 3x Coc:7, 2x Zot:2, 2x Zot:1, 2x Tomb:2, 2x Zig:15, Zig:27, D:1, D:10, D:11, D:14, D:15, D:4, Depths:4, Depths:5, Dis:7, Geh:7, Slime:1, Zig:14, Zig:17, Zig:21, Zig:25, Tomb:1, Tomb:3, Zig:11 13:56:55 <09gammafunk> zot:5 super dominant for xl 27 deaths relative to how much for xl 26 13:58:06 <09gammafunk> there's also something wheals pointed out where xl 27 has this thing where you can't go past it and it gives players more chances to die when they'd effectively be at something like xl 28 etc, and you see all those "extended" deaths that we're ultimately unable to filter out 13:58:38 <09gammafunk> I suppose a better graph would filter out games that went to any of those places 13:58:59 <10PleasingFungus> think it'd be close enough to just filter out games that died in hellpanzigtomb, yeah 13:59:09 <10PleasingFungus> don't need to do a milestone examination 13:59:16 <09gammafunk> maybe so yeah 13:59:37 <10PleasingFungus> not that many games that go to geh, leave without rune, go back to zot and die there 13:59:43 <10PleasingFungus> or do geh as third rune lol 13:59:56 <09hellmonk> doubt that lair 6 has anything to do with the xl11 death spike 13:59:58 <09gammafunk> all of my deaths involve completing a zig and then dying on zot:5 14:00:04 <09hellmonk> most characters will be xl12 or 13 by that point 14:00:14 <09hellmonk> some will even be xl 14 14:00:19 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * recentish lair:6 s=xl% o=% 14:00:21 <04Cerebot> 14918 games for * (recentish lair:6): 3 (0.01%), 24 (0.01%), 2x 6 (0.01%), 2x 9 (0.01%), 2x 5 (0.01%), 2x 2 (0.01%), 2x 26 (0.01%), 3x 8 (0.02%), 3x 21 (0.02%), 3x 25 (0.02%), 4x 27 (0.03%), 4x 23 (0.03%), 5x 22 (0.03%), 8x 20 (0.05%), 15x 18 (0.10%), 16x 19 (0.11%), 29x 10 (0.19%), 35x 17 (0.23%), 159x 11 (1.07%), 231x 16 (1.55%), 836x 12 (5.60%), 1382x 15 (9.26%), 5785x 13 (38.78%), 6388x 14 (4... 14:00:23 <10PleasingFungus> ugh 14:00:31 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * recentish lair:6 s=xl% o=xl 14:00:32 <04Cerebot> Bad filter condition: 'xl' (extra: ) 14:00:38 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * recentish lair:6 s=xl% o=-% 14:00:39 <04Cerebot> 14918 games for * (recentish lair:6): 3 (0.01%), 24 (0.01%), 2x 6 (0.01%), 2x 9 (0.01%), 2x 5 (0.01%), 2x 2 (0.01%), 2x 26 (0.01%), 3x 8 (0.02%), 3x 21 (0.02%), 3x 25 (0.02%), 4x 27 (0.03%), 4x 23 (0.03%), 5x 22 (0.03%), 8x 20 (0.05%), 15x 18 (0.10%), 16x 19 (0.11%), 29x 10 (0.19%), 35x 17 (0.23%), 159x 11 (1.07%), 231x 16 (1.55%), 836x 12 (5.60%), 1382x 15 (9.26%), 5785x 13 (38.78%), 6388x 14 (4... 14:00:44 <10PleasingFungus> i apparently am bad at querying 14:01:01 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * recentish lair:6 / xl=11 14:01:02 <04Cerebot> 159/14918 games for * (recentish lair:6): N=159/14918 (1.07%) 14:01:11 <10PleasingFungus> good enough 14:01:26 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * recentish xl=11 / lair:6 14:01:29 <04Cerebot> 159/104689 games for * (recentish xl=11): N=159/104689 (0.15%) 14:01:41 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * recentish xl=11 s=br 14:01:43 <04Cerebot> 104689 games for * (recentish xl=11): 66560x D, 17696x Lair, 5759x Orc, 4763x Gauntlet, 3524x Abyss, 3112x IceCv, 1709x Bailey, 1263x Volcano, 72x Shoals, 70x Spider, 57x Snake, 44x Swamp, 31x Elf, 19x Slime, 4x Bazaar, 2x Depths, 2x Temple, WizLab, Trove 14:01:55 <09gammafunk> I mean the spike is just very clearly lair/orc regardless; compare how often players die on D:8-D:11 to how often they die to lair 14:01:59 <10PleasingFungus> the fun mid section of d just before lair seems more suspicious 14:02:10 <10PleasingFungus> i mean i'm looking at that and it seems like d dominates 14:02:14 <10PleasingFungus> could do a goodplayer thing i guess 14:02:21 <09gammafunk> yeah you gotta filter 14:02:28 <10PleasingFungus> strongly suspect it won't matter much 14:02:31 <10PleasingFungus> !lg goodplayers recentish xl=11 s=br 14:02:35 <04Cerebot> 28428 games for goodplayers (recentish xl=11): 17477x D, 5220x Lair, 1701x Gauntlet, 1319x Orc, 900x Abyss, 874x IceCv, 460x Bailey, 425x Volcano, 11x Spider, 9x Swamp, 9x Snake, 7x Slime, 7x Shoals, 6x Elf, Depths, Temple, Bazaar 14:02:37 <10PleasingFungus> yeah 14:02:39 <10PleasingFungus> roughly the same ratio 14:02:44 <10PleasingFungus> it's not really lair 14:02:54 <10PleasingFungus> !lg goodplayers recentish xl=14 s=br 14:02:56 <04Cerebot> 10286 games for goodplayers (recentish xl=14): 3316x Lair, 2427x D, 2312x Orc, 372x Abyss, 330x Gauntlet, 278x Snake, 271x Spider, 252x Swamp, 247x IceCv, 182x Shoals, 93x Elf, 82x Depths, 73x Volcano, 24x Slime, 10x Bailey, 7x WizLab, 4x Vaults, 3x Desolation, Zig, Zot, Hell 14:03:24 <10PleasingFungus> my feeling is that people are dying at or right before lair entrance 14:03:37 <10PleasingFungus> since mid d can be nasty if you haven't done lair yet 14:04:02 <09gammafunk> I think lair is the dominant factor for this peak 14:04:06 <10PleasingFungus> why do you think that? 14:04:16 <12ebering> h y d r a 14:04:41 <10PleasingFungus> i don't understand how >3x as many xl 11 D deaths as xl 11 Lair deaths could mean "lair is killing xl 11 goodplayers" 14:04:42 <09gammafunk> and that the other things you said are components of the rise as well; maybe it would be more accurate to say "it's the combination of mid D and lair" 14:04:49 <05kate> i'd guess that lair being a lot deeper than it used to be means you're much more likely to run into some mid D vault or something before getting to the relative safety of lair? 14:04:53 <10PleasingFungus> lair could be a component, but i don't think it's dominant 14:05:05 <10PleasingFungus> hrm, i actually don't remember where lair used to spawn 14:05:15 <10PleasingFungus> was it a couple floors shallower? 14:06:05 <05kate> i think so, although it's probably a pretty old change now 14:06:43 <05kate> and in fact maybe i'm misremembering, because i also feel like orc was specifically moved to usually be deeper than lair (when it used to usually be earlier) 14:07:14 <05kate> could also just be that D:8-11 is more dangerous than it used to be in general sense rather than the branch being deeper 14:08:45 <05kate> heh yep i'm completely wrong, lair used to be d:8-13 and orc was d:6-11 14:09:44 <10PleasingFungus> ahh, nice research 14:11:13 <05kate> but yeah, extremely anecdotally i do feel like the dungeon around lair entrance depth has gotten more dangerous in recent times 14:11:36 <09gammafunk> !lg goodplayers t-fast recentish !boring lg:urune<=3 xl=11 s=cikiller% 14:11:41 <04Cerebot> 976 games for goodplayers (t-fast recentish !boring lg:urune<=3 xl=11): 76x a hydra (7.79%), 42x a two-headed ogre (4.30%), 39x a centaur warrior (4.00%), 27x a boulder beetle (2.77%), 26x a death knight (2.66%), 26x Snorg (2.66%), 25x an orc knight (2.56%), 24x a cane toad (2.46%), 23x an orc warrior (2.36%), 23x a komodo dragon (2.36%), 20x an ugly thing (2.05%), 18x an acid dragon (1.84%), 18x... 14:11:51 <09gammafunk> !lg goodplayers t-fast recentish !boring lg:urune<=3 xl=10 s=cikiller% 14:11:57 <04Cerebot> 1140 games for goodplayers (t-fast recentish !boring lg:urune<=3 xl=10): 101x a two-headed ogre (8.86%), 68x an orc warrior (5.96%), 43x a centaur warrior (3.77%), 34x a boulder beetle (2.98%), 34x a killer bee (2.98%), 30x a hydra (2.63%), 27x a komodo dragon (2.37%), 27x Harold (2.37%), 27x a yak (2.37%), 25x an ugly thing (2.19%), 24x an orc priest (2.11%), 23x a wight (2.02%), 23x a hornet (2... 14:12:04 <09gammafunk> proof! it's hydras! 14:12:53 <09gammafunk> do you get hydras more often in D now? 14:12:56 <09gammafunk> I feel with the monster changes you might 14:13:08 <09gammafunk> I was surprised to see them more pre-lair my runs, could have been rng though 14:14:11 <10PleasingFungus> ?????????????? 14:14:21 <10PleasingFungus> it's 7.8% hydras? 14:15:09 <10PleasingFungus> er 14:15:18 <09gammafunk> sure, but it's a relative comparison 14:15:31 <10PleasingFungus> 5.2% really 14:16:49 <09gammafunk> probably more interesting to comment on how that peak has spread out 14:17:11 <09gammafunk> there's actually not much of a peak at xl11 vs xl10 any more 14:17:30 <09gammafunk> nor at xl 9 for that matter 14:17:58 one thing i haven't seen mentioned yet is that if you look at mon-pick-data.h, there's a pretty hard shift in terms of what monsters can generate starting around D:10 14:18:16 this has been a thing for a while though, no opinion on 0.27 spike 14:18:26 <09gammafunk> yeah, you'd sort of have to break down this in greater detail 14:19:05 <09gammafunk> but that's work, and since I made the graph, I declare it "the lair spike" and have already submitted my publication to the journal of crawl studies. the rest of you have been removed as co-authors 14:21:57 <09gammafunk> but I did want to mention caveats of how this is "player experience" versus "true difficulty"; obviously the latter is suggested by a graph like this but a graph for highly skilled players all playing to win is going to look different 14:40:47 <10PleasingFungus> 🙂 14:45:06 03ebering02 07[hot-hells] * 0.28-a0-127-g6af1efbc8b: feat: only place one up and down stair in the hells (wip: dis vaults) 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 38+ 33-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6af1efbc8bf1 14:45:06 03ebering02 07[hot-hells] * 0.28-a0-128-g83c1e312f8: feat: only place one up and down stair in the hells (wip: geh vaults) 10(26 minutes ago, 1 file, 27+ 29-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/83c1e312f870 14:45:06 03ebering02 07[hot-hells] * 0.28-a0-129-g7868c69bb9: feat: only place one up and down stair in the hells (wip: coc vaults) 10(19 minutes ago, 1 file, 19+ 19-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7868c69bb9b6 14:45:06 03ebering02 07[hot-hells] * 0.28-a0-130-g4160a85e8d: feat: only place one up and down stair in the hells (wip: tar vaults) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 25+ 24-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4160a85e8dbb 14:45:08 Branch pull/2064 updated to be equal with hot-hells: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2064 14:49:45 nice changes but have you considered feat: only place one up and down stair in the hells 14:50:20 <10PleasingFungus> that many stairs can't be good for your feat 14:51:38 fr: react from irc with emoji like 😫 to a discord message 14:53:57 <10PleasingFungus> if only we had someone here who was adding features to the irc bridge, like /names 14:54:53 <09gammafunk> coding in javascript :wfrShock: 14:55:23 <09gammafunk> back on this silly graph, I noticed something strange: 14:55:23 <09gammafunk> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/876539587005149275/unknown.png 14:56:08 <09gammafunk> well, I should have shown more of that, but there are a lot more games at the earlier xls by the way I've done this query for 0.27 vs 0.26 14:56:22 here's a thought: would it be an improvement to generate only one of swamp/snake/shoals/spider per game? or to collapse the entrance to the second, after entering one of them? anecdotally, the second S branch tends to feel like a resource collection area prior to rolling into vaults, and that difficulty graph seems to support that? 14:56:39 <09gammafunk> the culprit might be somehow due to how I'm using "goodplayers" defined the normal way for 0.27 but am using a more rigorously defined nick for 0.26 14:56:48 <09gammafunk> you'd expect more goodplayers for 0.27 obv 14:57:01 <09gammafunk> but you'd expect not many more, and if you look at the nick sizes they are what you'd expect 14:57:06 <10PleasingFungus> well, also people are dying a lot more at lower xls in 0.27? 14:57:08 <09gammafunk> goodplayers a bit bigger 14:57:27 <09gammafunk> yeah they are PF, but 50% more seems pretty high relative to the increase shown on the graph 14:57:34 <09hellmonk> I think the second option is probably more fun, also might be cool to freely rotate the sbranches instead of doing 1water 1poison 14:58:28 <09gammafunk> yeah, might have a point about that lair branch thing 14:59:19 <09gammafunk> just to make sure I'm defining goodplayers in the same way for both sets; players who had 10 wins before start of respective tourneys, and I'm excluding games that ended in hellpantombzig 15:00:15 <12ebering> Implojin: chequers suggested that a couple years ago, I think the PR was closed but not sure how stale it is 15:00:16 <10PleasingFungus> iirc ebering has been arguing for this for a long time 15:00:27 <12ebering> when it was first suggested I recoiled from it, but I'm starting to come around 15:01:00 <09gammafunk> the proposed patch from chequers was just to generate one lair branch, right? 15:01:06 i've been thinking for a while about how to add variety to the available strategic paths from d:1 to zot, and collapsing one S wouldn't do that, but 15:01:46 <10PleasingFungus> i like the idea of parallel branches & choose the less dangerous one, but maybe it’s a bad idea 15:01:49 <10PleasingFungus> idk 15:01:58 i can see arguments both ways, i think? 15:01:58 <09hellmonk> I suppose doing that would make typical route progression require both slime and v5, since zot is still runelocked 15:02:04 <09hellmonk> or make runelock 2 runes ig 15:02:10 <10PleasingFungus> another round of s branch shortening might have a similar effect 15:02:32 <09gammafunk> oh yeah you lose a rune, right 15:02:33 <10PleasingFungus> would vaguely lean toward this 15:02:42 <10PleasingFungus> if we went this way 15:02:45 <12ebering> welcome to extendo reformo 15:02:48 <10PleasingFungus> lol 15:02:59 i was thinking about adding some collapsing "shortcut" portals 15:03:00 <10PleasingFungus> from s branch to extended so quickly..! 15:03:26 04Build failed for 08hot-hells @ 4160a85e 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1133246446 15:03:34 example: add a "sunken passage" on d:15 that leads to orc or something, and add a bunch of gold in the passage 15:03:41 caveat: sunken passage collapses if you enter lair 15:03:45 <10PleasingFungus> huh? 15:03:48 <09hellmonk> not doing more alternate route stuff in hellcrawl is one of those missed opportunity things 15:04:03 <09gammafunk> alternate routes do seem to work better with no backtracking 15:04:10 <10PleasingFungus> so the idea is you’re supposed to go d15 before lair? 15:04:37 well, if it were balanced well, i think the idea would be that maybe it's not clear-cut if you should risk the spawns on d:15 for a reward or just enter lair 15:04:49 <10PleasingFungus> hard to communicate to players 15:04:55 yeah. 15:04:55 <09gammafunk> are you saying orc doesn't generate otherwise? 15:05:08 i wasn't thinking that, but it's an idea? 15:06:35 <09gammafunk> I guess I'm having a hard time seeing why I'd ever take this portal, if I could just go to orc later and more safely. 15:06:52 sure, that's fair 15:07:34 from a higher level, i suppose what i'm trying to get at with this is that it would be nice if the strategic path to the orb were more dynamic 15:07:46 <09gammafunk> yes, agree 15:09:01 <10PleasingFungus> also agree 15:09:02 <12ebering> all branches on portal timers except hells 15:09:04 <12ebering> keep rune lock 15:10:23 <09gammafunk> playing cogmind made me appreciate "branch decision as a strategic decision that varies and affects your 'build'". But the way it does that is not just by offering special loot, it also awards something kind of analogous to a dcss god in that you aget aligned with a faction that grants these long-term benefits. That's a possible route for making strategic branch decisions interesting in crawl, where 15:10:24 you can gain access to some special god you'd not otherwise be able to get. Jiyva is kind of (a not very good) example of this already. 15:11:21 <09gammafunk> possibly using something analogous to the good god system where you can switch between "progression" gods in some way without wrath and only partial piety los, if you take this special branch god 15:11:57 <09gammafunk> otherwise the only thing branch decisions have to offer are "it has special loot items" and "it's less dangerous than the other options for your character" 15:12:07 <10PleasingFungus> Path of the Chosen… 15:12:15 <10PleasingFungus> or more runes! 15:12:38 <09gammafunk> yeah I guess runes and a runelock system are a way of making that interesting 15:12:58 <10PleasingFungus> sort of like choosing when to get the three bits in slay the spire, except you can get more 15:13:19 <10PleasingFungus> the green keys 15:14:07 <09gammafunk> always take the super elite in act one if you can manage it! 15:15:06 <10PleasingFungus> is this true 15:15:13 <05kate> that d:15 passage suggestion reminds me of when the vaults rune lock was very first implemented, i think the idea of having a portal from elf:$ into V was also floated 15:15:26 <10PleasingFungus> (chanting) elf rune! elf rune! 15:15:57 <05kate> although i'm also not sure how well that would actually work in practice 15:16:04 <09gammafunk> kate probably remembers how we first had it on depths and dpeg added a special vault room on d:15 with only a shaft inside! 15:16:37 <05kate> ohh, that sounds very vaguely familiar yeah 15:17:40 <10PleasingFungus> idea: exploration traps in depths can shaft the player into hell inevitable result: weird travel bugs and crashes 15:18:00 <09gammafunk> it really does depend on a lot of factors both in terms of whether you can survive a super elite and in terms of what the path through a super elite gets you. I think players at A20 going for heart do take tend to take it when they can, but don't take it in act 1 quite a lot, so it's probably a pretty good decision space 15:18:28 <10PleasingFungus> i can believe the answer is "take if you can, but very often you can't [where 'you' is a good player and a reasonable level of luck]" 15:18:29 <09gammafunk> remember all those times minmay suggested we remove abyss and have banish just send you to a deeper depth and possibly a deeper branch? 15:18:35 <10PleasingFungus> no 15:18:39 <10PleasingFungus> but that does sound minmay 15:18:43 <05kate> i wonder if doing something drastic like only allowing one lair branch is the time to completely break scoring and just reduce the number of runes you can get in a single game (especially if there's also a desire to mess with pan somehow) 15:19:03 <10PleasingFungus> would make sense to me 15:19:24 <12ebering> aut score 9 rune 0.28 15:19:27 <12ebering> a brave world 15:19:36 <10PleasingFungus> lol 15:19:37 <09gammafunk> s-s-s....save..c-compat.....break??? 15:19:43 <10PleasingFungus> i forgot about aut scoring 15:19:47 <10PleasingFungus> absolutely not 15:19:50 <05kate> aut scoring! 15:20:57 <10PleasingFungus> fr: awk scoring (requires command line proficiency) 15:21:00 <12ebering> should sit down and prepare a plan!1 we've got enough active devs moving in various directions 15:21:12 <09gammafunk> do that and show it to lightli 15:21:15 <10PleasingFungus> reasonable 15:21:25 <12ebering> speaking of lightli 15:21:59 <10PleasingFungus> are there folx here still pondering about ranged combat reform? 15:22:05 <09hellmonk> is aut scoring going to be the impetus required to buff chei 15:22:12 <10PleasingFungus> gamma kept hinting at something 15:22:15 <09hellmonk> since yr ruining the chei niche 15:22:45 <12ebering> I have a note in my phone, was letting t play out before I started writing it 15:22:52 <12ebering> then died in t and started writing hells stuff for real 15:22:59 mainline fr: no more collecting spent ammo 15:23:09 <09gammafunk> mainline?! 15:23:22 <09gammafunk> who is this, some fork person??? 15:23:36 <10PleasingFungus> mainline is where the bus takes you if you forget to get off 15:23:43 <10PleasingFungus> it’s a public transit request 15:23:49 <09gammafunk> is that where you stop and get vanilla ice cream 15:24:03 <10PleasingFungus> ooh 15:24:11 <10PleasingFungus> i kind of want ice cream now 15:25:01 <09gammafunk> my ranged reform was a very ambitious idea that needs a lot of sitting down and thinking through ideas. I think ebering is probably more pragmatic and likely to get something actually done, so don't hold anything up on my account 15:25:34 <10PleasingFungus> imo everyone should write down their thoughts 15:25:35 <09gammafunk> but I will try to at least finish the ranged reform thought experiment I had 15:25:43 <10PleasingFungus> then we can mix up the best of each 15:25:46 <09gammafunk> tru 15:25:47 <10PleasingFungus> and get triple triple crossbows 15:25:55 <10PleasingFungus> which, fr to @nicolae : ^ 15:26:09 <09gammafunk> dancing 3x bow vault incoming 15:28:24 <12ebering> !tstats 16 t-fast 15:28:31 <12ebering> !tstats 16 t0.26-fast 15:28:37 <12ebering> not quite "done" but close enough imo 15:28:41 <04Cerebot> Stats after 16 days (t-fast): 2473 players, 732 runers, 403 winners, 1563 wins, 67075 games, winrate 2.33%, total player time 3y+46d+0:03:32. 15:28:45 <09gammafunk> gonna write a t summary? 15:28:51 <12ebering> maybe tomorrow 15:28:53 <09gammafunk> nice 15:28:55 <12ebering> it is late in my timezone 15:29:02 <04Cerebot> Stats after 16 days (t0.26-fast): 2333 players, 886 runers, 476 winners, 1767 wins, 54701 games, winrate 3.23%, total player time 3y+129d+16:31:25. 15:29:05 <12ebering> so I won't get to it for ~20 hrs 15:29:21 <12ebering> players up, win rate down 15:29:24 <12ebering> great success 15:29:36 <09gammafunk> wow, 1.1% decrease 15:33:42 devil's team clan in top 20, specifically 18th 15:33:57 not saying this is a world record or anything, but yeah it's world record 15:34:27 worms gave us a final bump from 19th 15:34:31 <05kate> oh nice, wormsofcan squeezed in a last-minute win too 15:34:57 oh wow and kate did as well 15:36:39 <05kate> was a fun one, i wore faith almost all game and didn't hit max piety until crypt or something i think 15:36:56 <05kate> using invocations constantly is good, it turns out 15:37:28 <10PleasingFungus> !lg kate 15:37:29 <04Cerebot> 4. kate the Practitioner (L3 FeHe of Elyvilon), blasted by an orc wizard (puff of frost) on D:3 on 2014-09-29 05:16:47, with 33 points after 1526 turns and 0:19:15. 15:37:31 <10PleasingFungus> hrm 15:37:42 <10PleasingFungus> !nick tdt 15:37:43 <04Cerebot> Mapping tdt => (t0.27) devmonk gammafunk pleasingfungus wormsofcant wheals semitonal 15:37:46 <10PleasingFungus> !lg semitonal 15:37:56 <05kate> someone else has kate on cao only i think, very sad 15:37:58