00:42:07 -!- geekosaur is now known as brandon 00:52:27 <10P​leasingFungus> @gammafunk let's chat here? 00:56:07 <10P​leasingFungus> i guess the question is: what playstyle do we want from our hypothetical Corona replacement spell? (the premise being that we have it triple-check MR, so we can make it actually do something without worrying about it being strong into the mid- and late-game) 00:56:17 <10P​leasingFungus> (or a free pickup for other characters, etc) 00:57:12 <10P​leasingFungus> enchanted hibernation has a distinctive and pretty fun playstyle: you're trying to plop it onto susceptible enemies while being far enough away that they aren't bopping you and close enough that you can stab em before they can wake up. success means a big payoff. that's fun! 00:57:54 <09g​ammafunk> oh sorry 00:58:00 <10P​leasingFungus> no worries 00:58:27 <10P​leasingFungus> some ideas that have been tossed out so far: - pain bond - corrosion or mini-corrosion - constriction 01:01:26 <09g​ammafunk> I suppose withe pain bond idea I had in mind the early en struggles, yeah; jackals can be really bad if you don't have good damage. But possibly it's just too situational for d:1 and would only be good later on. It would not be helpful against those 1v1 situations that also feel bad with just corona. I had in mind the idea that any change to corona would be about making the effect more meaningful 01:01:27 for early survival 01:01:57 <09g​ammafunk> Had not really imagined any specific playstyle since to a decent extent this is covered by our subsequent spells 01:02:14 <10P​leasingFungus> i think every spell is to extent a playstyle or a minigame 01:02:20 <10P​leasingFungus> some of them are very simple, some are more complex 01:02:36 <10P​leasingFungus> it's most obvious with something like prism, or ramparts, or any summon spell 01:02:55 <10P​leasingFungus> but even something like iron shot is a playstyle: you get in range, you push button, bad guy goes away 01:03:12 <09h​ellmonk> the sky playstyle 01:03:13 <09g​ammafunk> what's my apport playstyle 01:03:32 <10P​leasingFungus> correct question is "what's my borg's playstyle" 01:03:32 <09g​ammafunk> but yeah, I think you're saying there should be some fun "play loop" one engages in 01:03:41 <09h​ellmonk> you get an item onscreen and then get the item and walk 01:03:58 <09g​ammafunk> if you don't like it, hit tha bricks? 01:04:01 <10P​leasingFungus> i should have qualified; some spells, like blink or ddoor or borg's or w/e, are sort of more niche 01:04:19 <10P​leasingFungus> in that you aren't expected to cast them nearly as often 01:04:29 <10P​leasingFungus> swiftness, etc 01:04:53 <10P​leasingFungus> but it's a good question 01:06:19 <10P​leasingFungus> what playstyle do we want enchanter to have? Should their level 1 spell be strong & generally useful enough to keep them alive for the level or so until EH comes online, or do we want them to be strong enough with only occasional help from their level 1 to get there? (And in the latter case, do they need a L1 at all?) 01:07:54 <05k​ate> it does feel like EH is fundamentally like, the Thing that enchanter does early on, and they just start doing their thing later compared to other backgrounds whose thing is their L1 spell mostly 01:08:22 <05k​ate> so i could see it being fine for them to not have an L1 spell maybe 01:08:26 <10P​leasingFungus> i have an idea 01:08:53 <10P​leasingFungus> what if we remove corona from their start 01:08:55 <10P​leasingFungus> and............. 01:09:01 <10P​leasingFungus> give them one (1) potion of invisibility 01:09:34 <05k​ate> oh that could be neat yeah 01:09:40 <09g​ammafunk> what about a wand of invisibility.... 01:10:24 <10P​leasingFungus> wow 01:10:25 <10P​leasingFungus> sounds busted 01:10:29 <10P​leasingFungus> especially if you could recharge it 01:10:33 <05k​ate> i do think the En playstyle is a neat and fun one as-is, giving a starting invis would definitely be pretty strong 01:10:45 <09h​ellmonk> ??enchanter 01:10:46 <04C​erebot> enchanter[1/1]: A spellcaster that starts with a {Book of Maledictions}, a +1 dagger and some skill in Hexes and Short Blades. They generally fight by incapacitating their enemies by casting {Ensorcelled Hibernation} or {Confuse} and then {stabbing} them. 01:10:52 <10P​leasingFungus> ahh, confuse... 01:11:00 <09h​ellmonk> 1 invis and make the dagger +2? 01:11:19 <09h​ellmonk> idk, no strong opinion abt this 01:11:30 <10P​leasingFungus> ??brigand 01:11:31 <04C​erebot> brigand[1/2]: A background that starts with an enchanted dagger, a cloak, and a blowgun with two curare needles and eight poison needles. 01:11:37 <09h​ellmonk> corona sucks but it's a lot better than not having it when yr weapon is a +1 dagger 01:11:37 <10P​leasingFungus> wow, they don't give the plus 01:11:54 <09h​ellmonk> believe br does get a +2 one 01:11:57 <05k​ate> brigand and CK get +2 weapons 01:12:15 <05k​ate> oh actually it's +2 armour for CK, not sure about the weapon 01:12:34 <09g​ammafunk> +0 weapon 01:12:41 <09g​ammafunk> but chaos ofc 01:12:54 <09h​ellmonk> CK should get to start with a chaos launcher 01:13:04 <09h​ellmonk> but no ammo 01:13:14 <09h​ellmonk> the ultimate xom prank 01:13:14 <09g​ammafunk> imo allied dancing chaos launcher 01:13:27 <09h​ellmonk> CK should start with xom's friendship goblin 01:13:28 <05k​ate> i think leaving the En weapon at +1 is probably fine though, invis is really strong (plus having later potions of invis already identified isn't nothing) 01:13:38 <09h​ellmonk> also, the friendship goblin in that vault should be named 01:15:29 <09g​ammafunk> !lg * current en !sp !fe d:1 !boring xl=1 s=cikiller 01:15:30 <04C​erebot> fe is ambiguous: may be species or class. Use fe-- (Felid) or --fe (Fire Elementalist) to disambiguate 01:15:38 <09g​ammafunk> !lg * current en !sp !fe-- d:1 !boring xl=1 s=cikiller 01:15:43 <04C​erebot> 3311 games for * (current en !sp !fe-- d:1 !boring xl=1): 736x a hobgoblin, 552x a kobold, 550x a jackal, 214x a quokka, 212x a goblin, 186x an endoplasm, 159x a dart slug, 147x a leopard gecko, 146x a gnoll, 96x a ball python, 87x a bat, 67x an ooze, 56x a giant cockroach, 48x a rat, 27x a frilled lizard, 12x an adder, 5x a worm, 4x an adder zombie, 2x, 2x a leopard gecko zombie, a giant cockroa... 01:16:21 <09g​ammafunk> I don't know why I'm so fixated on en fighting d:1 jackals, but I can't help but think "now they won't even have corona!" 01:17:05 <09g​ammafunk> can we give them +1 dagger of hound slaying? 01:17:08 <09g​ammafunk> think about it please 01:17:36 <09h​ellmonk> give them a dagger of draining that becomes mundane once they reach level 2 01:17:41 <09h​ellmonk> solved 01:17:45 <09h​ellmonk> next problem 01:18:00 <09g​ammafunk> start them pre-buffed with long duration confusing touch 01:18:24 <05k​ate> jackals don't see invis, just use that potion! then you hit level 2 and you're playing an old enchanter again already 01:18:30 <09g​ammafunk> oh shit 01:18:32 <09g​ammafunk> they don't? 01:18:34 <05k​ate> and you just forget that you ever had corona memorised 01:18:35 <09g​ammafunk> *??jackal 01:18:36 <04C​erebot> jackal (h) | Spd: 14 | HD: 1 | HP: 4-7 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 3 | Corpse | XP: 2 | Sz: small | Int: animal. 01:18:38 <09g​ammafunk> holy crap 01:18:42 <10P​leasingFungus> also removing corona isn't really a big nerf! 01:18:51 <09g​ammafunk> thought they totally did 01:18:51 <09g​ammafunk> yeah nm then 01:18:57 <10P​leasingFungus> i sort of assumed jackals saw invis because dogs and wolves do 01:19:01 <09g​ammafunk> right 01:19:02 <05k​ate> same, i did have to check yeah 01:19:03 <10P​leasingFungus> guess jackals lost out on the smell o vision 01:19:08 <10P​leasingFungus> rough 01:19:26 <05k​ate> also i think cheibriados is maybe having issues on irc? 01:19:39 <05k​ate> bin/monster-trunk.REAL: error while loading shared libraries: libncursesw.so.5: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 01:19:40 <09g​ammafunk> yeah, hasn't been restored 01:19:44 <09g​ammafunk> nice 01:20:02 <09g​ammafunk> but fwiw, chei doesn't serve trunk, hasn't for a long while 01:20:03 <09h​ellmonk> removing corona isn't a huge nerf but it is a pretty decent nerf to their level 1, which is already pretty bad 01:20:14 <09g​ammafunk> its trunk was many many versions old 01:20:14 <09h​ellmonk> like definitely bottom 10, possibly bottom 5 bad 01:20:23 <09g​ammafunk> %??-version 01:20:37 <09h​ellmonk> invis pot goes a long way toward compensating of course, arguably a net buff 01:20:49 <09g​ammafunk> yeah if it works on like every d:1 monster 01:20:56 <09h​ellmonk> depending on how much stuff you can kill off of it 01:21:01 <09g​ammafunk> it's a big buff; obv you only have one get out of jail card, but it is a big one 01:21:28 <09h​ellmonk> yeah, certainly a net buff actually idk why I said arguably 01:21:31 <09g​ammafunk> %0.10?goblin 01:21:31 <04C​erebot> bin/monster-0.10: error while loading shared libraries: libncursesw.so.5: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 01:21:56 <09h​ellmonk> losing the corona to deal with unseen horrors tech, sad! 01:27:41 <10P​leasingFungus> yeah that unironically is the one thing i don’t like about removing corona 01:27:43 <10P​leasingFungus> @??unseen horror 01:27:44 <04C​erebot> unseen horror (x) | Spd: 30 | HD: 7 | HP: 32-44 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Dam: 12 | see invisible | Res: will(20) | XP: 385 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 01:28:09 <10P​leasingFungus> maybe i can add some other weird cool emergent tech somewhere 01:28:10 <10P​leasingFungus> idk 01:28:37 <09h​ellmonk> just add a corona ranged weapon brand 01:28:38 <09g​ammafunk> I think you can use eh and/or confusing touch in a similar way to using corona; personally unseens aren't a think that's spooked me much as en 01:28:53 <09h​ellmonk> it's better as am tech 01:29:17 <10P​leasingFungus> ??arcane marksman 01:29:18 <04C​erebot> arcane marksman[1/2]: Class that starts with a ranged weapon (bow, crossbow, sling, throwing), robe, and a {Book of Debilitation}. 01:29:19 <09h​ellmonk> or like spellsdude that found the hex book ig but most books mulch unseen horrors reasonably well 01:29:32 <10P​leasingFungus> ??book of debilitation 01:29:33 <04C​erebot> book of debilitation[1/1]: Corona, Slow, Inner Flame, Portal Projectile, Cause Fear, Leda's Liquefaction 01:29:38 <10P​leasingFungus> hrm 01:29:44 <09h​ellmonk> am actually wants to cast corona a lot for ammunition reasons 01:29:57 <09g​ammafunk> fun 01:30:30 <10P​leasingFungus> i will hold off on any AM changes until gammafunk fixes ranged 01:30:56 <09g​ammafunk> yeah tomorrow I'm going to ramp up my shame ebering bot 01:34:29 <10P​leasingFungus> wow 01:34:29 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.27-a0-1591-gc56fcc985a (34) 01:36:09 <08w​ormsofcan> make holy wrath give the player a 1 radius halo 01:36:34 <09h​ellmonk> putting a halo on the brand that tso capstone gives you would be extremely funny tbf 01:36:34 <08w​ormsofcan> or holy wrath applies corona on its target, I guess? 01:36:51 <09h​ellmonk> anyway seems bad for weapon swapping reasons 01:37:04 <09h​ellmonk> ig the onhit corona version works but does not feel very "holy" to me 01:37:22 <08w​ormsofcan> I mean, it's on top of everything else 01:39:31 <10P​leasingFungus> nearly sure that corona doesn’t stack w halo, fwiw 01:39:54 <10P​leasingFungus> re tso antisynergy 01:40:23 <08w​ormsofcan> yeah it doesn't 01:40:36 <08w​ormsofcan> it also doesn't stack with the glowing status that ugly things have 01:40:45 <08w​ormsofcan> @??ugly thing 01:40:46 <04C​erebot> purple ugly thing (u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 55-76 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 22 | doors | Res: will(40) | Vul: silver | Corpse | XP: 556 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 01:40:53 <08w​ormsofcan> hmm, not mentioned in the bot 01:41:07 <08w​ormsofcan> I'm pretty sure those things still glow, anyway 01:49:43 <10P​leasingFungus> i feel like that might have been tragically removed 01:49:59 <10P​leasingFungus> either way, the difference is that tso doesn’t gift ugly things 01:50:02 <10P​leasingFungus> afaik 01:55:31 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.27-a0-1591-gc56fcc985a 02:23:19 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.27-a0-1591-gc56fcc985a (34) 02:53:45 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.27-a0-1591-gc56fcc985a 03:31:20 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4217-g7c68dc2372 03:34:12 -!- geekosaur is now known as brandon 08:22:07 Another "turns passed unexpectedly until Zot clock warning kicked in" bug 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12618 by Stairdancer 08:22:07 Another "turns passed unexpectedly until Zot clock warning kicked in" bug 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12617 by Stairdancer 09:37:52 <06a​dvil> odd 09:38:55 <06a​dvil> _You feel your strength returning. _You start resting. _HP restored. _You start resting. _Your divine vigour fades away. You have lingered too long. Zot senses you. Dive deeper or flee this branch _before you perish! 09:39:21 <06a​dvil> where that's about 10k turns between the beginning of rest and zot 09:40:29 nothing weird in the leve 09:40:30 l 10:49:54 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 11:27:01 ahh reset password tokens expire after 1hr, I guess that is why I so often have trouble giving people them asynchronously 11:59:42 <06a​dvil> did anyone ever do a calculation of what the biggest possible travel delay is? I vaguely remember something like this 12:03:51 <06a​dvil> the thrust of this question is, if I set a threshold after which runrest delays should crash, what would it be? Right now I have zot clock per floor / 3 12:05:02 <06a​dvil> exploring an entire floor with no monsters after Xctrl-f is about 700 turns (this is easier to do in turns than aut, so the above number is actually 2000 turns) 12:05:51 <06a​dvil> it'd be possible to apply this to just wait delays or something, but we have in the past had fun autoexplore loops (and I wouldn't swear there isn't still something like that going on with hepl in very rare cases) 12:17:01 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 12:22:39 <06a​dvil> lol the only "real" save I had loaded up to test this was the infamous one from kate and I don't think it is going to provide realistic info 12:23:56 what with d:27 and all 12:25:13 hrm, perhaps some travel from Z:5 to D:1 involving some weird paths through encompass maps? 12:25:30 yeah, that's what I wanted to test with a real save 12:25:42 for some reason descending is very slow on this save 12:25:58 though I have weird stuff in my rc from stairdancer 12:30:36 <06a​dvil> also, lol, there's up to 1s of dprfs during translevel travel 12:39:17 <10P​leasingFungus> nice 12:39:18 <09g​ammafunk> I wasn't sure if all of that slowness was one-time save compat fixups to the level chunk or what 12:39:34 <09g​ammafunk> just considered myself lucky that I managed to make it back to Lair:2 13:04:44 <08n​icolae> iirc cigotuvi's monster is a vault-redefined box of beasts beast, but is it okay to use such beasts elsewhere 13:05:01 <09g​ammafunk> @nicolae btw, reminder about two small things: 1) decor does nothing outside of D:14-D:15 and Depths. Not sure if any of your new Elf decorative vaults added that, but I've removed it from all vaults in elf.des. 2) Plz use numeric glyphs for monster placement whenever possible. I'm cleaning up a lot of KMONS: E = deep elf knight type stuff to KMONS: 1 = deep elf knight etc. Fine to use non-numeric 13:05:02 if you need an alternate glyph for special KFEAT/KITEM alongside the numeric ones, of course. 13:05:47 <08n​icolae> okay, i thought decor didn't do anything in Elf, but then i saw it on all the existing elf vaults and was like... well, okay, guess it does do something. but elf.des lied to me 13:08:01 <09g​ammafunk> @nicolae yep, it mislead me for a long time too, had to go check eventually to see what the heck it even did 13:08:58 <09g​ammafunk> I would not re-use that exact def since that's supposed to be a special monster one only sees in that wizlab. You could make a totally different one elsewhere I guess. Those monsters weren't quite designed for being hostile, so you sort of have to pick facets carefully so that you really have an interesting monster design that's "worth" being seen only once. I can't recall how much you can even pick 13:08:59 facets. The main issue is that this is not a monster the player will see in any other context, so hopefully you're using it in a sort of special rare vault and not some branch-introductory area. I guess I could see one being used in branch ending. 13:09:59 <09g​ammafunk> unlike, say, animated armour, there's probably enough to work with there in terms of making a good monster, but I'm not sure what flexibility you have 13:10:43 <08n​icolae> oh yeah, i wouldn't copy that one exactly, i was just using it as precedent to say it's not totally verboten. i was thinking maybe using a few in a lair ending. you do get to specify which facets they have, and what age/size they are. cigotuvi's uses three facets, even. presumably you could make one that's all six. (i probably wouldn't. but i could. maybe.) 13:11:39 <09g​ammafunk> yeah, beastly thing would be appropriate for lair. Regarding the facets, they just need to have enough documentation in x-v to describe what they do 13:11:49 <09g​ammafunk> I believe they all do this, but I'm not sure 13:12:06 <08n​icolae> i'll check real quick 13:12:23 <09g​ammafunk> just beware of what horrors you may unlesh when you work with "chimera" type monsters: 13:12:34 <09g​ammafunk> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/866729237309292594/chimera.png 13:13:03 <08n​icolae> golly 13:13:12 <08n​icolae> well, i don't think mutant beasts can get that crazy 13:13:27 <09g​ammafunk> it took like over a minute for monster to spit out all of that chimera info 13:21:17 <06a​dvil> I wonder what the longest it could take to heal is 13:24:00 <06a​dvil> hm didn't &p used to not expire? 13:26:21 <10P​leasingFungus> hm, is that a pandemonium lord chimera? 13:26:52 <10P​leasingFungus> i know it's blurred out to discourage putting that query in again 13:28:01 <08n​icolae> oh, that's why it's blurred, i was wondering 13:28:11 me too 13:28:19 <08n​icolae> you can make a primal batstingfireweirdshockox beast in wizmode and not even god can stop you 13:29:00 <10P​leasingFungus> lol 13:29:09 <10P​leasingFungus> good thing no one gave you commit rights 13:29:53 <10P​leasingFungus> https://discord.com/channels/205277826788622337/205316046230388737/866732288448135198 people here might be interested in a discussion i'm having with sdynet about off-handed punch 13:30:36 <08n​icolae> whew! 13:31:07 discord decided I should make an account to see that. so much for discord… 13:31:24 <10P​leasingFungus> oh sorry 13:31:29 <10P​leasingFungus> i'll just repost it 13:31:40 <10P​leasingFungus> context: https://github.com/sdynet/crawl/wiki/Off-hand-punch 13:31:50 <10P​leasingFungus> > Thanks for writing this up! I agree with you that off-hand punch isn't in a good place right now, in terms of being overly complex and insufficiently relevant. > > However, it's unclear to me what the overall design role of offhand punches is in your proposal. Are we trying to make it viable to use 1h weapons without a shield? (Doesn't that fit the same design role of sacrificing defense for 13:31:50 offense as 2h weapons?) Or, are we trying to give a compensation to 1h players who haven't found a shield yet? (Why? It doesn't seem like a common case, nor does it seem like something we really need to do - seems fine for 1h players to be unhappy if they don't have a shield they like.) > > I can see two plausible routes forward for off-handed punches: > (1) Try to support specifically UC without shields, filling the 13:31:51 role of "2h weapons" (sacrificing defense for offense). The point of having off-handed punches, rather than just increasing UC damage with a spare hand, would be to make things clearer/more explicit to players, since you can't see UC damage. Balancing this so that "UC with a shield" and "UC with off-hand punching" were both sometimes viable would be difficult. > (2) Remove off-handed punches. > > If we went with 13:31:51 route (1), something like your proposed bracelet could exist, but it seems quite specialized, since it would only really be useful for very small number of characters. It might make more sense as a single unrand than as a full item type. > > What do you think? 13:32:20 <10P​leasingFungus> ooh, that renders pretty badly in IRC... sorry 13:32:47 yeh 13:33:05 I could also have done without it; not like I'm a member of the devteam 13:33:21 but I always thought the point of offhand punch was (1) 13:35:08 that is, UC without a shield 13:37:48 <10P​leasingFungus> it was unclear to me what the point of off-handed punches was 13:38:05 the game's already pretty much there as you have to have UC for offhand punch to do much of anything iirc 13:38:07 <10P​leasingFungus> well, that's half of it 13:38:26 03advil02 07* 0.27-a0-1592-g01599e1a9e: Revert "Forbid DEBUG_TRAVEL without DEBUG_DIAGNOSTICS" 10(29 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/01599e1a9eec 13:38:26 03advil02 07* 0.27-a0-1593-gcd13fe6573: fix: add a debug tripwire for long delays 10(8 minutes ago, 3 files, 29+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cd13fe65733a 13:38:31 <10P​leasingFungus> the other half is having it be sometimes correct to not use a shield in favor of off-handed punches, right? 13:38:42 <09g​ammafunk> it's part ogre mage, if that helps 13:38:55 <09g​ammafunk> recall their infamous spell sets! 13:39:06 well, yes 13:40:02 <10P​leasingFungus> ooh, tripwires 13:40:09 <10P​leasingFungus> looks like off-handed punches predate DCSS 13:40:21 <10P​leasingFungus> i sort of assume the idea was verisimillitude 13:40:30 <10P​leasingFungus> "you have a spare hand, so you should be able to use it!" 13:47:49 <03w​heals> a pity octopodes don't predate dccs, or they would have seven off hand punches 13:48:52 three, probably 13:49:08 <10P​leasingFungus> at most six 13:53:20 <06a​dvil> Octopodes have eight tentacle-shaped legs, and need four of them to move. While a tentacle lacks fingers, two tentacles are a rough equivalent of a human's arm where item manipulation is concerned - including wielding two-handed weapons with four. 13:54:06 <06a​dvil> I think only one based on the manual lore 13:54:19 <10P​leasingFungus> i think wheals is arguing the lore would not have been so advanced 13:54:23 <10P​leasingFungus> if octopodes had arrived earlier 13:54:53 <06a​dvil> I see 14:10:05 <09g​ammafunk> We should probably make the release branch...today? 14:10:09 <09g​ammafunk> Since we're post freeze 14:11:18 <10P​leasingFungus> sounds good 14:14:11 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.27-a0-1593-gcd13fe6573 (34) 14:56:39 <09g​ammafunk> @nicolae you stuck in non-montiferious vaults in your montiferious vault commit. they where in fact decortiferious! you're a monster(iferious)! 14:56:53 <09g​ammafunk> aah! 14:56:56 <09g​ammafunk> I mispoke 14:56:59 <09g​ammafunk> turns out I'm the monster 14:57:04 <09g​ammafunk> ...er 14:57:07 <09g​ammafunk> wth 14:57:24 <09g​ammafunk> +NAME: nicolae_elf_crossing_hall +TAGS: decor transparent allow_dup +DEPTH: Elf +: if crawl.coinflip() then +KFEAT: + = closed_clear_door +: end +NSUBST: H = 1=+ / *=c++ +SUBST: c : cxvbm, D : cxvbm., F : cxvbm., E : cvxbm0, 0 = .:15 0:5 9:1 +MAP + c+c + cc.cc + cc...cc + cc.0D0.cc + cc..DDD..cc + cc...0D0...cc + cc...........cc +cc.0F0.0E0.0F0.cc +H..FFF.EEE.FFF..H 14:57:24 +cc.0F0.0E0.0F0.cc + cc...........cc + cc...0D0...cc + cc..DDD..cc + cc.0D0.cc + cc...cc + cc.cc + cHc +ENDMAP 14:57:31 <09g​ammafunk> @nicolae decor! but it's not! 14:57:52 <09g​ammafunk> so I guess i need to remove that allow_dup tag? 14:57:58 <09g​ammafunk> seems you intended this to be actually montiferious 14:59:42 <09g​ammafunk> I'll go ahead and do that, putting this in the monster-placing section (that I've made in elf.des in a subsequent commit), remove allow_dup (and of course, decor, which doesn't doesn't do anything anyways) 15:19:48 <08n​icolae> yeah, that one should have monsters, i think i might have placed the decor tag before i decided to put monsters in it 15:22:00 <08n​icolae> allow_dup can stay imo 15:25:19 <09g​ammafunk> it could stay, but I think allow_dup for monster-placing vaults should...honestly I'm not even sure what a reasonable rule is for that tag. We just historically only use it for decorative vaults or in certain special cases for e.g. subvaults where it's necessary 15:33:41 thenty (L6 DDFi) ASSERT(you.running.turns_passed < buggy_threshold) in 'delay.cc' at line 470 failed. (Excessive delay, 2000 turns passed, delay type -4) (D:4) 15:33:47 <09g​ammafunk> welp 15:33:54 <09g​ammafunk> @advil your handiwork? 15:36:26 <09g​ammafunk> @nicolae Similar issue for extra; we just throw that on a lot of decorative vaults and I think it's possibly just something someone started doing at random. If you read the syntax guide for decor it mentions that it's useful for vaults like labyrinth entrances, to prevent those portal entries from taking up a vault roll. But I'm not even sure that this is necessary (any more?), since those use 15:36:26 CHANCE. In any case, the docs imply that extra is more about preventing loss of use of vaults for a "required" vault. And those usages of extra don't meet that criteria, as they're just decor vaults 15:37:37 <09g​ammafunk> Maybe it's better that we have that we have those extra decor vaults, otherwise the dungeon might be too plain, but I don't think anyone has even looked into it. If it would be better, seems something that should be standardized as a tag, rather than just randomly added or not based on whether vault author remembers/knows about it 15:43:18 redsdead (L5 DrBe) ASSERT(you.running.turns_passed < buggy_threshold) in 'delay.cc' at line 470 failed. (Excessive delay, 2000 turns passed, delay type -3) (D:3) 15:44:09 <08n​icolae> i figured it would work for that particular vault since its arrangement is mostly just decorative, even if it's not strictly decor 15:46:10 Mousus6 (L20 HOAK) ASSERT(you.running.turns_passed < buggy_threshold) in 'delay.cc' at line 470 failed. (Excessive delay, 2000 turns passed, delay type -3) (D:15) 15:46:29 <10P​leasingFungus> hm 15:46:37 <10P​leasingFungus> assume this is more often than @advil expected 15:46:51 <10P​leasingFungus> think we want to revert this for now 15:47:50 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.27-a0-1594-gfd1010017a: Revert "fix: add a debug tripwire for long delays" 10(42 seconds ago, 3 files, 1+ 29-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fd1010017a3d 15:52:38 thenty (L11 DDFi) ASSERT(you.running.turns_passed < buggy_threshold) in 'delay.cc' at line 470 failed. (Excessive delay, 2000 turns passed, delay type -3) (D:9) 16:03:04 redsdead (L7 DrBe) ASSERT(you.running.turns_passed < buggy_threshold) in 'delay.cc' at line 470 failed. (Excessive delay, 2000 turns passed, delay type -3) (D:5) 16:04:37 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.27-a0-1594-gfd1010017a (34) 16:15:33 steves (L25 DjCj) ASSERT(you.running.turns_passed < buggy_threshold) in 'delay.cc' at line 470 failed. (Excessive delay, 2000 turns passed, delay type -4) (Elf:1) 16:32:23 * geekosaur wonders if it's worth looking at some of those crashes to see why they needed to wait so long 16:32:58 !crashlog steves 16:32:59 9. steves, XL25 DjCj, T:48157 (milestone): https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/steves/crash-steves-20210719-201518.txt 16:35:57 <10P​leasingFungus> geekosaur: definitely worthwhile! i just had a baby on me at the time 16:36:09 <10P​leasingFungus> (and am on mobile now) 16:36:21 hm, interlevel travel looks like it might be involved 16:36:49 <10P​leasingFungus> i wonder if it’s an order of magnitude error 16:36:50 !crashlog redsdead 16:36:51 2. redsdead, XL7 DrBe, T:4088 (milestone): https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/redsdead/crash-redsdead-20210719-200238.txt 16:37:17 <10P​leasingFungus> are we crashing after 2000 aut instead of 2000 turns? 16:38:18 hm, nope. (to interlevel travel) 16:38:28 that's possible 16:39:20 hi 16:39:30 I have what I think is a bug in an active game on CXC 16:39:52 started on D1 with a starting vault that has a kraken and a bunch of player species surrounded by glass 16:39:53 <10P​leasingFungus> yes? 16:40:08 played about 700 turns and now all the player species are gone from the vault 16:40:18 and I have just autoexplored into a wandering felid 16:40:24 which... doesn't seem right? 16:40:55 <10P​leasingFungus> does sound buggy 16:41:22 I'm not experienced with crawl bug reports, is there something I can usefully do with my game/dump/etc to help? 16:41:31 <10P​leasingFungus> ??save backup 16:41:32 <04C​erebot> save backup[1/1]: To get a Save backup, you have to log in via SSH (console), then select (T)runk -> (A)dvanced -> (B)ackup -> (N)ormal . This will give you a link that will allow developers to get a copy of your save and help find bugs. 16:41:52 what's the easiest way to log in via SSH? 16:41:54 <10P​leasingFungus> though just winning or losing & then posting your dump should be nearly as good 16:41:57 <10P​leasingFungus> ??ssh 16:41:57 <04C​erebot> ssh[1/4]: chmod 400 16:42:00 <10P​leasingFungus> hrm 16:42:14 <10P​leasingFungus> there’s a guide on the main site 16:42:22 I suspect I'm about to lose given what's now loose on this level! 16:42:23 <10P​leasingFungus> let me find it 16:42:25 <10P​leasingFungus> haha 16:43:09 <10P​leasingFungus> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/howto#connecting 16:43:29 <10P​leasingFungus> it’s a little bit of work, so don’t feel obliged 16:43:30 <10P​leasingFungus> oh 16:43:51 yep 16:44:00 what's the easiest way now I'm dead? 16:45:05 this is the morgue file, anyway: 16:45:05 https://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/tilp/morgue-tilp-20210719-204344.txt 16:45:30 oh I think I can see what it is 16:45:34 the kraken killed the other species 16:45:43 then the felid must have respawned... 16:45:46 <09h​ellmonk> oh and the felid revived 16:45:49 <09h​ellmonk> that's hilarious 16:45:56 RIP 16:45:56 <09h​ellmonk> but definitely not intended 16:46:21 well I will leave that with you guys :) 16:46:28 thanks for the help 16:50:50 hm, yes, that mode -3 is autoexplore 16:51:21 I could see that taking >2000 turns and certainly >2000 aut 16:55:25 hm, but the comment says you couldn't generate it using that much 16:56:06 in any case it does look to be mostly autoexsplores tripping it 16:58:18 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.27-a0-1595-g0b823d0a13: Don't revive decorative cats (tilp) 10(50 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0b823d0a1391 16:58:22 <10P​leasingFungus> oops, extra parent 16:58:22 <10P​leasingFungus> paren* 17:04:16 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.27-a0-1595-g0b823d0a13 (34) 17:23:47 New branch created: pull/2038 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2038 17:23:47 03dilly02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2038 * 0.27-a0-1596-g37654abef8: Buff Ko's apt and adjust recommended jobs 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/37654abef89a 17:32:25 <08n​icolae> oh, that's one of my vaults, but i think i'm off the hook morally because i don't think felids were a thing when i made it. whew. 17:33:17 <09g​ammafunk> you will be punished 17:33:43 <08n​icolae> you can try but i will never learn a single lesson 17:47:45 <03w​heals> so it may be partly my fault 17:47:49 <03w​heals> a group effort, if you will 17:48:25 <08w​ormsofcan> @advil not sure if it's relevant to what you're looking for regarding travel delay, but in a previous version I caused the autotravel to enter an infinite loop by placing a briar on a branch entrance (via fedhas) and then moving out of LOS before it expired, causing the game to just constantly go up and down a floor trying to enter the branch because it thought the entrance was blocked 17:48:31 <08w​ormsofcan> not sure if that issue is fixed in the current version 17:56:50 <08w​ormsofcan> hmm actually I think it was briars from a thorn hunter, not fedhas 18:08:43 <09g​ammafunk> oh nice 18:23:23 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.27-a0-1595-g0b823d0a13 (34) 18:59:37 ??dazed 18:59:37 dazed[1/1]: A status which makes a monster randomly skip 25% of its turns. 18:59:51 ??blind 18:59:51 blind[1/2]: You can blind monsters with Dazzling Spray (temporary), or as a Zin Recite effect (permanent); this means they can't see you (or other monsters) and act as though you are invisible. 19:30:14 <08n​icolae> i wonder what vault gammafunk's looking at 19:30:55 <10P​leasingFungus> you’ll ru that question! 19:36:57 <08n​icolae> ||i submitted an elf vault which places monsters which are pre-dazed or pre-blinded|| 19:57:05 <10P​leasingFungus> o 19:57:12 <10P​leasingFungus> why? 19:57:41 <09g​ammafunk> you know exactly what I'm looking at nicolae 19:57:48 <09g​ammafunk> you know exactly what I'm going to ruin 19:58:24 <08n​icolae> no... no! 😭 19:58:37 <09g​ammafunk> aside from that vault, which I have a plan for how to fix 19:58:57 <09g​ammafunk> the only vault I'd like to see substantial changes to is nicolae_elf_deep_mausoleum 19:59:43 <09g​ammafunk> this one sort of boils down to a vault name pun and a crypt crossover vault, but without really any actual elf theme (pun aside), and it has a lot of sort of annoying required digging 20:00:32 <08n​icolae> well, the death mage is supposed to conjure some lost souls to keep the undead around, maybe it needs more death mages 20:00:43 <09g​ammafunk> so I was going to ask if you could revise this one to a) feature less required digging, maybe you could group some of the chambers? I need to see how it looks in practice in terms of numbers of items 20:00:44 <09g​ammafunk> oh 20:00:59 <09g​ammafunk> ok yeah there's the death mage 20:01:33 <09g​ammafunk> I might just trim up this list of crypt monsters some, but that is better, didn't see that 20:01:48 <08n​icolae> fair enough 20:01:52 <09g​ammafunk> yeah maybe 1-2 more of those couldn't hurt 20:02:30 <08n​icolae> noted, maybe the guaranteed one in the back and a chance of each other lil room having one too 20:03:47 <09g​ammafunk> for your || dancing weapons|| I'm going to have just a couple possible statuses, probably slow and confused and then maybe one strong base type with low enchant, make those status ones something interesting, like the confused one is reach + disto 20:04:12 <09g​ammafunk> basically don't want them to be trivial monsters and then hopefully the joke still comes across 20:04:23 <08n​icolae> hmmm, all right 20:05:41 <09g​ammafunk> *??dancing weapon perm_ench:slow ; giant spiked club 20:05:42 <04C​erebot> dancing weapon (() | Spd: 8 | HD: 15 | HP: 36 | AC/EV: 22/16 | Dam: 44 | non-living, fighter, fly, unbreathing | Res: will(invuln), fire++, cold++, elec+++, poison+++, drown, miasma, neg+++, torm | XP: 859 | Sz: small | Int: brainless. 20:06:05 <09g​ammafunk> tsk tsk 20:06:18 <08n​icolae> i'll start working on redoing it with none or at least less gravestones, what crypt monsters would you cut 20:07:59 <09g​ammafunk> hrm, for starters, the trivial solo ones maybe; elf zombies/spectrals/simulacrums notoriously weak, although I guess a baldemaster might do something even without weapons? flying skulls and large and small aboms I guess, not too interesting if one of those gets a revive 20:08:18 <09g​ammafunk> bog body doesn't seem within theme 20:08:36 <09g​ammafunk> freezing wraith is just somewhat weak as well 20:08:46 <08n​icolae> well the zombies and stuff are there mostly to give a bit of a buffer zone, since they show up at the entrance but less so the deeper in you go 20:11:30 <09g​ammafunk> I would probably go for "crypt standard mediums and heavies" for the 2 list and cut those lower tier things I mentioned. maybe just have your spectrals/zomby buffer guys etc be deep elf knights 20:11:36 <09g​ammafunk> *??deep elf knight 20:11:37 <04C​erebot> deep elf knight (e) | Spd: 10 | HD: 11 | HP: 42-57 | AC/EV: 1/16 | Dam: 21 | weapons, items, doors, fighter, spellcaster | Res: will(80) | Corpse | XP: 805 | Sp: throw icicle (3d20), force lance (3d14), haste, invisibility | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 20:12:00 <08n​icolae> living ones or undead ones 20:12:20 <09g​ammafunk> for those spectrals you wants; just saying no real reason to put weak spell-less elves 20:12:31 <09g​ammafunk> as those things, like deep elf pyromancer skeleton etc 20:12:39 <09g​ammafunk> knights probably not even strong enough, but it's a start 20:13:16 <09g​ammafunk> *??deep elf blademaster simulacrum 20:13:17 <04C​erebot> deep elf blademaster simulacrum (Z) | Spd: 13 | HD: 16 | HP: 40-56 | AC/EV: 0/20 | Dam: 8(cold:16-47) | undead, two-weapon, evil, unbreathing | Res: will(21), cold+++, poison+++, drown, miasma, neg+++, torm | Vul: fire, holy | XP: 244 | Sz: Medium | Int: brainless. 20:13:21 <09g​ammafunk> heh 20:14:51 <09g​ammafunk> yeah even those aren't doing too much, but fast and have some af_cold behind them, likewise the spectrals 20:16:33 <08n​icolae> hmmm, i might take some time to just rethink the vault entirely 20:16:38 <09g​ammafunk> probably can go: large and small aboms, the mummy monsters (mixes up the theme a bit much, but you could do a nice coinflip() between crypt/tomb), bog body 20:16:45 <09g​ammafunk> and for your flying skulls, put that into the intro group 20:16:51 <09g​ammafunk> that's sort of how they function 20:20:59 <10P​leasingFungus> double_double_double_trouble lol 20:30:29 <09h​ellmonk> let the_grid_ultimate place in elf 20:39:32 the_coctagon_ultimate layout fof cocytus 20:50:32 <08n​icolae> dang, is there a list of monsters sorted by HD 21:01:48 <10P​leasingFungus> doubt it 21:06:29 <09g​ammafunk> ...huh 21:06:36 <09g​ammafunk> *??dancing weapon ; arbalest 21:06:36 <04C​erebot> dancing weapon (() | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 38 | AC/EV: 18/16 | Dam: 36 | non-living, fighter, fly, unbreathing | Res: will(invuln), fire++, cold++, elec+++, poison+++, drown, miasma, neg+++, torm | XP: 812 | Sz: small | Int: brainless. 21:06:43 <09g​ammafunk> did you know that these can melee you? 21:08:43 "fighter" flag, even 21:08:51 <09g​ammafunk> true 22:10:39 03Nicolae Carpathia02 07[nicolae-july-elfvaults] * 0.27-a0-1559-gc3a07c9d80: Update elf_deep_mausoleum based on gammafunk comments 10(47 seconds ago, 1 file, 20+ 21-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c3a07c9d80ec 22:10:41 Branch pull/2029 updated to be equal with nicolae-july-elfvaults: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2029 22:17:53 <09g​ammafunk> cool, I can merge that with my changes to the other one 22:21:50 <06a​dvil> looks like the turn counter wasn't getting reset for all travel types 22:29:46 <10P​leasingFungus> makes sense 23:43:05 <09g​ammafunk> @nicolae what I eventually came up with, seems like it covers the basic idea/theme well enough with weapons spooky to fight. You might like the enchant I used on the third class! Open to other ideas, but I think it's hard to make other enchants work: lua -- Fast dancing weapons. This will have chaos, but will be nerfed a lot by -- confusion chaos_types = { ["spear"] = 1, ["trident"] = 1, ["mace"] = 23:43:05 1, ["flail"] = 1, ["dire flail"] = 1, ["quarterstaff"] = 1, ["long sword"] = 1, ["scimitar"], ["short sword"] = 1, ["dagger"] = 1, ["rapier"] = 1, ["hand axe"] = 1, ["war axe"] = 1 } -- Slower weapons that will get distortion and become less than normal speed -- with slowness disto_types = { ["halberd"] = 1, ["morningstar"] = 1, ["great mace"] = 1, ["giant club"] = 1, ["great sword"] = 1, ["battleaxe"] 23:43:06 = 1} -- Highest quality types we'll degrade and will have no ego. good_types = { ["demon trident"] = 1, ["bardiche"] = 2, ["giant spiked club"] = 2, ["lajatang"] = 1, ["double sword"] = 1, ["triple sword"] = 1, ["broad axe"] = 1, ["battleaxe"] = 2, ["executioner's axe"] = 1 } mons("dancing weapon perm_ench:confusion ; " .. random_item_def(chaos_types, "chaos", nil, "|")) mons("dancing weapon 23:43:06 perm_ench:slow; " .. random_item_def(bad_types, "distortion", nil, "|")) mons("dancing weapon perm_ench:corrosion; " .. random_item_def(good_types, "none", "damaged", "|")) 23:44:20 <09g​ammafunk> could do venom ego on that third set instead of no ego , feels vaguely appropriate 23:44:26 <08n​icolae> oh, that's much nicer 23:44:28 <08n​icolae> venom could work, sure 23:44:43 <08n​icolae> what is random_item_def 23:44:52 <08n​icolae> is that one of the vault.lua things i keep seeing 23:45:27 <09g​ammafunk> dungeon.lua, pretty useful function, see: 23:45:32 <08n​icolae> also that seems like a pretty substantial change so if you want to rename the vault nicolae_gammafunk_elf_etc 23:45:33 <09g​ammafunk> !source dungeon.lua:766 23:45:33 <04C​erebot> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/dat/dlua/dungeon.lua#L766 23:45:44 <08n​icolae> oh damn 23:46:33 <09g​ammafunk> helpful if defining items and you want to randomize both classes and egos and maybe add modifiers like good_item etc without having to repeat something 10+ times 23:46:44 <08n​icolae> i see that, yeah 23:46:48 <09g​ammafunk> works for ITEM defs and monster equip defs, just use right separator 23:47:32 <08n​icolae> such power... 23:48:01 <09g​ammafunk> also see dgn.monster_weapon() function right below, helpful for equiping monsters with appropriate higher-quality weapons according to various classes 23:48:04 <09g​ammafunk> both are used a lot in ghost vaults 23:48:07 <08n​icolae> yeah i see that, nice 23:48:18 <08n​icolae> are dgn.loot_potions et al just strings you can put anywhere 23:49:05 <09g​ammafunk> yep, that's what we prefer to do these days if you just want generically good potions/scrolls (it's fine to use any scroll or any potion instead of course) 23:49:11 <09g​ammafunk> to help reduce vault spoilers 23:49:43 <08n​icolae> these days if i want to put a specific kind of thing like a specific potion i'll usually do "potion of whatever / any potion w:5" or the like 23:49:48 <09g​ammafunk> still a spoiler to some extent, but it's a common def and everyone isn't just rolling their own slightly different versions of "potions of heal wounds / potion of haste / ..." 23:50:21 <09g​ammafunk> yeah, if you want the potion to be specific for some specific theme, that's fine; this is more "I want a potion/scroll loot but I don't want it to be crap" 23:50:46 <09g​ammafunk> preferred if you use specific types that way you ident:all them, at least 23:51:33 <08n​icolae> well, that way there's a bias but you still don't actually know what it is 23:51:35 <09g​ammafunk> also things like dgn.aux_armour, dgn.good_aux_armour etc 23:51:48 <09g​ammafunk> which way? 23:52:25 <08n​icolae> like if i want to put a potion of heal wounds, sometimes i'll do "potion of heal wounds / any potion" or the like, so it's still Probably on theme but maybe not 23:53:11 <09g​ammafunk> you can do that, but that's 50% heal wounds potions 23:53:16 <09g​ammafunk> so you'd probably want to identify that 23:53:35 <09g​ammafunk> if you add a slight bias it's probably fine 23:53:55 <09g​ammafunk> because those loot potions are likewise giving smaller bias to the "good" types 23:54:13 <09g​ammafunk> it is also nice for item balance purposes to use a common def though 23:54:20 <09g​ammafunk> so we can tweak one place 23:54:35 <09g​ammafunk> obv if you need a specific potion for theme, that's what you need, but sometimes it's less important 23:55:55 <09g​ammafunk> for something like "potion of heal wounds w:2 / any potion" maybe you can just avoid the ident. If the vault places quite later it's probably also not too important, since ided by then 23:56:28 <09g​ammafunk> there is no perfect answer to spoilers, literally all vaults have them unless they place monsters/items with same density/frequency as normal level gen 23:58:08 <09g​ammafunk> we'll probably also eventually do something about item identification rendering all of this moot 23:59:39 <09g​ammafunk> well, there's still "I see this vault here, let me look it up in source files to see what monsters/items tend to be inside", and we just can't completely eliminate that, but want to keep it under control