01:31:30 <Discord|> <08n​icolae> fr species: hemidemisemigod, they can worship freely but cap out at 1.5 stars of piety
01:35:00 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.27-a0-887-gcab673c142 (34)
01:37:00 <Discord|> <08n​icolae> actually my math was off, they should cap out at 3
01:37:11 <Discord|> <08n​icolae> a hemidemigod would cap out at 1.5
01:56:14 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.27-a0-887-gcab673c142
02:54:12 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.27-a0-887-gcab673c142
03:31:14 <Kelbell> Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4116-g4a9585b5cb
03:31:32 <Kelbell> Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-230-gf0ab5377aa
04:56:58 <Henzell> magusnn (L23 GnFi) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Vaults:3)
04:59:47 <Henzell> magusnn (L23 GnFi) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Vaults:3)
05:00:07 <Henzell> magusnn (L23 GnFi) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Vaults:3)
05:01:48 <Henzell> magusnn (L23 GnFi) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Vaults:3)
05:15:23 <Henzell> magusnn (L23 GnFi) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Vaults:3)
05:24:11 <Discord|> <03w​heals> !crashlog
05:24:12 <Discord|> <04C​erebot> 23578. horredgrones, XL23 DsNe, T:74682 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/horredgrones/crash-horredgrones-20210401-181314.txt
05:24:49 <Discord|> <03w​heals> !crashlog magusnn
05:24:49 <Discord|> <04C​erebot> No milestones for magusnn (crash).
05:28:01 <Henzell> magusnn (L23 GnFi) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Vaults:3)
06:33:15 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
09:27:10 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/1870 (3 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1870
09:27:10 <Cheibriados> 03Nikolai Lavsky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1870 * 0.27-a0-888-g48c6d42: New consumables panel for Web Tiles 10(43 minutes ago, 13 files, 356+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/48c6d42c7192
09:27:10 <Cheibriados> 03Nikolai Lavsky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1870 * 0.27-a0-889-g2d2412a: Fix web clients not getting updated about the state of XP evokers 10(36 minutes ago, 1 file, 20+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2d2412a9fa5f
09:27:10 <Cheibriados> 03Nikolai Lavsky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1870 * 0.27-a0-890-gdfe2e17: Remove a couple of obsolete vendor prefixes 10(34 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dfe2e175440a
09:38:51 <Cheibriados> 03Nikolai Lavsky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1870 * 0.27-a0-888-g938f276: New consumables panel for Web Tiles 10(10 minutes ago, 13 files, 356+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/938f276a384d
09:38:51 <Cheibriados> 03Nikolai Lavsky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1870 * 0.27-a0-889-g1210e88: Fix web clients not getting updated about the state of XP evokers 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 22+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1210e88e6799
09:38:51 <Cheibriados> 03Nikolai Lavsky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1870 * 0.27-a0-890-g3fd2654: Remove a couple of obsolete vendor prefixes 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3fd26547b2cd
10:00:07 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> dang
10:00:40 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> that seems big!
10:06:52 <advil> looks exciting
10:10:24 <advil> hm, those magusnn crashes appear to result from some sort of recursive lua crash (in user rc code) that doesn't write a milestone and puts the crashlog in the wrong place
10:12:36 <advil> I've moved the crashlogs to the right place if anyone wants to look at them, e.g. http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/magusnn/crash-magusnn-20210404-085657.txt
12:46:01 <CPTANT> In response to this posted yesterday: <kate-> yeah, if anything i think the argument for changing abszero would be one based on ~gamefeel~, it can definitely feel underwhelming even if it's not actually stronger than other l9 spells
12:47:40 <CPTANT> Game feel is definitely not the reason why I think it is a bad spell. The mayor reason why it is a bad spell is because it is foolproof. At time of casting there is a 100% certainty of outcome of success (unless there are multiple closest monsters, in which case it is 100% certain one of them is gone)
12:48:19 <CPTANT> No other spell has this. Chain lightening or firestorm may do massive ammounts of damage, but it may also....not
12:50:08 <CPTANT> It also cuts through the fundamentals of the game. There is an entire damage system in the game of HP, resists, AC/EV and willpower that the spell just completely ignores
12:51:51 <Discord|> <12e​bering> Death's door is a spell with 100% certainty of outcome (assuming you don't miscast-which also applies to a0) that ignores an entire damage system
12:53:15 <CPTANT> At least that has a huge risk aspect when it ends
12:57:41 <CPTANT> "Will I be attacked in the vulnerable time after this spell" is something I have to at least think about. "delete this monster for 9mp" is not.
12:58:23 <CPTANT> Complete determinism conflicts with a no no-brainer design philosophy.
13:00:11 <kate-> ah i see, so it's a spell with 100% outcome of success, except in the cases where it isn't
13:02:08 <CPTANT> The vast majority of times it is completely deterministic regardless of opponent.
13:03:32 <CPTANT> There is no spell that deterministically gets rid of things like hell sentinels.
13:04:51 <Discord|> <12e​bering> You can keep repeating the word "deterministic" but you're hiding two important things: 1, miscasts are randomized; 2, position matters.
13:05:10 <Discord|> <12e​bering> *??hell sentinel
13:05:10 <Discord|> <04C​erebot>  Hell Sentinel (1) | Spd: 10 | HD: 19 | HP: 114-175 | AC/EV: 25/3 | Dam: 40, 25 | demonic, doors, evil, see invisible | Res: will(invuln), fire+++, damnation, cold+++, elec+++, poison+++, miasma, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy | XP: 2898 | Sp: hurl damnation (3d20) [!sil], iron shot (3d33) [!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: human.
13:06:41 <CPTANT> I dont see how miscasts are "important" when they are easily brought below 1%
13:07:31 <Discord|> <12e​bering> Bringing a level 9 spell to 1% fail is a major strategic undertaking, hardly a no brainer.
13:07:56 <CPTANT> Not really when the spell is only 1 school
13:09:22 <Discord|> <12e​bering> Anyhow, you're moving the goalposts
13:09:22 <Discord|> <12e​bering> Your original analysis is tactical, not strategic
13:09:22 <Discord|> <12e​bering> and in a tactical situation a random roll is not deterministic, and does matter
13:09:24 <Discord|> <12e​bering> moreover, even if we (bedgrudgingly) grant that a 1% fail is "guaranteed" the comparison to death's door is still very apt
13:09:38 <Discord|> <12e​bering> because, after the 1st turn where you get a guarnateed effect, you're stuck with surviving the after-effects
13:09:43 <Discord|> <12e​bering> in the case of a0 that's quite a bit of noise
13:09:54 <Discord|> <12e​bering> will you have enough MP?
13:10:42 <CPTANT> The comparison to death's door is a complete red herring because the spells are completely different in their implications
13:13:28 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> > At time of casting there is a 100% certainty of outcome of success (unless there are multiple closest monsters, in which case it is 100% certain one of them is gone)  i do want to briefly bring this back up - it feels like we're jumping too quickly past the 'multiple closest monsters' case. there can be a huge difference between 'deleting' a pan lord and a ynoxinul or w/e!
13:16:22 <Discord|> <12e​bering> I've been thinking about reducing the range to make a0 users need to manouver more for better playfeel, but I haven't because I expect it will have a similar playfeel but with more corner strats (which were already good for it)
13:16:47 <CPTANT> Yes, you might come up with such a situation, doesn't mean determinism isn't true for a huge amount of situations.
13:17:48 <CPTANT> Ignoring the game's health model for a damage spell is a huge mistake.
13:18:50 <Discord|> <12e​bering> You seem strongly attached to the conviction that a0 = deterministic, to the point of discounting both the miscast system and the fact that most of the "boss mobs" where the playfeel is the worst either place in monster-dense vaults, have summons, or both.
13:19:46 <CPTANT> I already explained why the miscast argument is very weak.
13:21:04 <Discord|> <12e​bering> Yes, in your view they're "easily" brought below 1%
13:23:03 <kate-> yesterday we were also in a world where characters were easily casting multiple different l9 spells before vaults, it's not really a balance discussion that holds any kind of meaning at this point
13:23:37 <CPTANT> I did not say easily in that case
13:23:42 <kate-> you've made your point clear and it doesn't seem likely that you're going to convince anyone of anything new by repeating that a not-deterministic spell is deterministic
13:24:18 <CPTANT> lmao, because a single digit miscast change is supposed to change things?
13:24:33 <CPTANT> It is the greatest certainty there is every going to be of outcome
13:27:27 <Discord|> <08w​ormsofcan> airstrike is more deterministic than absolute zero, imo
13:27:34 <Discord|> <08w​ormsofcan> guaranteed 8 damage on any tile in LOS
13:27:49 <Discord|> <12e​bering> The average winning character with >15 ice has 32 int, 23.21 skill levels in their highest skill, and only 25% of them worship Veh
13:28:13 <Discord|> <12e​bering> This average char with no wizardry and no veh has a0 at 14% in robes
13:28:21 <Discord|> <12e​bering> Veh gives 4%
13:28:30 <Discord|> <12e​bering> Wizardry gives 6%
13:28:42 <Discord|> <12e​bering> Wiz + Veh gets that coveted 1%
13:29:27 <Discord|> <08w​ormsofcan> I have a dgie with 46 int, wiz, 20 ice and 20 spellcasting and it still has 4% fail rate
13:30:09 <Discord|> <12e​bering> (I assumed 15 spellcasting for those success figures)
13:30:17 <Discord|> <08w​ormsofcan> (and it's in robes)
13:30:28 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i do think it's fair to say that a certain amount of tactical randomness is good for dcss. By preventing the player from planning many turns in advance, they're forced to react to changing circumstances and build new plans. What do they do when they miss several times in a row, etc...
13:30:38 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> (backing away from the specific question of a0)
13:32:44 <CPTANT> Does miscast existing change the fact that Absolute zero is the most deterministically assured kill in the game?
13:32:44 <Discord|> <08w​ormsofcan> yes
13:32:44 <Discord|> <08w​ormsofcan> miscasting a level 9 spell has non trivial consequences
13:32:53 <CPTANT> So you are saying there is something more deterministic?
13:33:15 <Discord|> <08w​ormsofcan> ignoring the loss of MP
13:33:44 <Discord|> <05k​ate> i think probably isn't productive to engage in any further, the point has been made and going round in circles more isn't achieving anything other than clogging up the channel
13:34:12 <Discord|> <12e​bering> not sure edits appear on the other side of the bridge
13:34:47 <Discord|> <05k​ate> they don't yeah (but it was just a missing "this")
13:36:38 <CPTANT> Then I will only say that even if you think a0 is not completely deterministic because of miscasts approaching this limit is a very big mistake.
13:42:42 <CPTANT> On the topic of feel for the spell which was also mentioned: Ice really is one of the least satisfying themes for this spells. When I saw it's effect I instantly thought of the old disintegrate spell that threw chunks everywhere, that effect has a very powerful "feel" to it.
14:08:18 -!- werekitten is now known as misha
14:21:08 <gammafunk> well that's why people suggested feel changes that brought it closer in-line
14:21:25 <gammafunk> (hey, there's a chance that they read the logs after leaving every time)
14:24:13 <gammafunk> we need advil to bring back singularity so we can argue over a new level 9 spell instead of a0, for a while
14:25:20 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> lots of things to argue about
14:33:04 <advil> lol
14:33:14 <advil> <3 singularity
14:35:00 <advil> man it's too bad pan lords can't still cast it, monstercrawl singularity pan lord would be super fun (well, until it got kind of boring)
14:43:05 <Cheibriados> 03kate-02 07* 0.27-a0-888-g5e6d803: Refactor handling for convoker recall (#8839) 10(2 minutes ago, 3 files, 8+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5e6d80387999
14:43:49 <Discord|> <05k​ate> looking up convokers on mantis while fixing that ancient thing where they're immune to clouds, and was #12517 (recalling stuff from out of runed door vaults) decided to be intentional?
14:44:09 <Discord|> <05k​ate> i feel like i remember it coming up and being decided as fine, can close the issue if so
14:44:46 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> it seems hard to prevent
14:44:50 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> also relevant to spriggan druids
14:44:58 <Discord|> <12e​bering> it's definitely the current intended behavior, though every time it comes up there's some discussion of redesigning the mechanic more broadly
14:45:50 <Discord|> <05k​ate> probably yeah, could do something like "don't pull stuff from no_tele_into squares" as a weird approximation of it but that probably has knock-on effects
14:47:04 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.27-a0-888-g5e6d803879 (34)
14:47:11 <advil> at least some runed vaults don't have no_tele_into
14:47:30 <advil> (hall of blades being one famous one, but I'm sure there are a bunch of others)
14:47:40 <Discord|> <12e​bering> most runed door and teleporter vaults aren't no tele
14:47:59 <Discord|> <12e​bering> it's even in our level guidelines to not use no_tele for these as much as possible!
14:49:35 <advil> it seems like what would be ideal (but a bunch of work) would be to detect inaccessible runed areas and automatically mark them or monsters in them with a flag
14:51:13 <advil> %git 75794bf1b0
14:51:13 <Cheibriados> 07advil02 * 0.22-a0-515-g75794bf: Make player ghosts non-recallable (Malacante) 10(2 years, 10 months ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/75794bf1b04f
14:51:19 <advil> I think this still stands though
14:53:37 <advil> huh, didn't recall (ha) that there was an int check for recallability
15:36:04 <Cheibriados> 03Nikolai Lavsky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1870 * 0.27-a0-888-g7130541: New consumables panel for Web Tiles 10(82 minutes ago, 13 files, 348+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7130541fb90a
15:36:04 <Cheibriados> 03Nikolai Lavsky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1870 * 0.27-a0-889-gdcfe6b7: Fix web clients not getting updated about the state of XP evokers 10(82 minutes ago, 1 file, 22+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dcfe6b73815b
15:36:04 <Cheibriados> 03Nikolai Lavsky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1870 * 0.27-a0-890-g6eae34e: Remove a couple of obsolete vendor prefixes 10(81 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6eae34ed63a0
16:01:02 <gammafunk> advil: I wonder if you could do a console version of this consumable panel situation in a similar way. Obv you'd only have glyphs + item colors, but that'd still be useful
16:01:34 <gammafunk> not sure if console users would find it useful
16:11:38 <Cheibriados> 03kate-02 07* 0.27-a0-889-g13725f1: Adjust a canned message for Djinn (#12556) 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/13725f186597
16:12:19 <advil> bigterm players maybe :D
16:12:28 <advil> I think something could be possible, maybe along the lines of the equip bar? But a lot of consumables would show with the same glyph/color right now, so it might need more space than that
16:16:48 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.27-a0-889-g13725f1865 (34)
16:19:13 <gammafunk> yeah, not quite enough colors, but that is also configurable
16:19:43 <gammafunk> guess we need to properly support 256 color someday! then maybe PleasingFungus will like console
16:50:48 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> wouldn't hold your breath
16:51:00 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> games i play in console: - brogue
17:06:31 <Cheibriados> 03kate-02 07* 0.27-a0-890-ged2907c: Display when boulder beetles are rolling in the monster list 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ed2907cb0430
17:11:15 <gammafunk> oh, thanks kate
17:11:35 <gammafunk> although
17:11:37 <gammafunk> "And on examining them, since the information wasn't displayed very clearly
17:11:39 <gammafunk> in console in console."
17:11:52 <Discord|> <05k​ate> oops, rip
17:13:02 <Discord|> <05k​ate> just emphasising the importance of console since it had just come up in channel, clearly!
17:13:42 <Discord|> <05k​ate> i'd wondered why it seemingly wasn't displayed anywhere (presumably in tiles they get a rolling tile) but apparently they do change colour in console while rolling!
17:14:41 <gammafunk> yeah, I made sure they continued to do that in both tiles and console
17:14:49 <Discord|> <05k​ate> elemental white/lightgrey instead of lightgrey (but i just wasn't noticing it until i knew about it)
17:16:51 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.27-a0-890-ged2907cb04 (34)
17:43:21 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
18:11:07 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/1871 (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1871
18:11:07 <Cheibriados> 03hellmonk02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1871 * 0.27-a0-870-g5f40ab1: Several more ecumenical altar vaults 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 324+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5f40ab1947a8
18:11:07 <Cheibriados> 03hellmonk302 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1871 * 0.27-a0-892-g2dd56e7: Merge branch 'master' into ecumenicals 10(2 minutes ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2dd56e74dc66
18:17:23 <Discord|> <08n​icolae> oh, right, i should make some ecumenical altars too, what with the early game altar redoing
18:19:50 <Discord|> <08n​icolae> on the other hand, hellmonk has a diverse assortment there
18:20:35 <Discord|> <08n​icolae> although hellmonk_ecumenical_altar_heavens_door might need that lua magic to make the doors not connect
18:22:47 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/1872 (3 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1872
18:22:47 <Cheibriados> 03hellmonk02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1872 * 0.27-a0-870-g5f40ab1: Several more ecumenical altar vaults 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 324+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5f40ab1947a8
18:22:47 <Cheibriados> 03hellmonk302 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1872 * 0.27-a0-892-g2dd56e7: Merge branch 'master' into ecumenicals 10(14 minutes ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2dd56e74dc66
18:22:47 <Cheibriados> 03hellmonk02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1872 * 0.27-a0-893-g54c34ed: fixup extraneous line 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/54c34ed151b5
18:23:04 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.27-a0-890-ged2907cb04 (34)
21:12:10 <Cheibriados> 03hellmonk02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1852 * 0.27-a0-791-g5a9dc39: scale demonic will damage with ench power 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5a9dc399ff95
21:12:10 <Cheibriados> 03hellmonk02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1852 * 0.27-a0-792-g0908afc: update some player_res_torment checks 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0908afcc7937
21:12:10 <Cheibriados> 03hellmonk02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1852 * 0.27-a0-793-g0fec7e9: don't affect allies with word of chaos 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0fec7e97f7d3
21:18:00 <Cheibriados> 03hellmonk302 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1852 * 0.27-a0-903-g6a11ea9: Merge branch 'master' into nintendot3ds 10(4 minutes ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6a11ea910355
21:55:35 <gammafunk> ZureaL: looks like the cbr2 cert has expired
21:55:56 <Discord|> <12Z​ureaL> ah shitballs
21:55:57 <Discord|> <12Z​ureaL> thanks
22:01:20 <Discord|> <12Z​ureaL> fixed
22:04:58 <gammafunk> ZureaL: thanks!
22:07:26 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_