01:21:53 <Lantell> Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-3570-gb561bb485a
01:34:27 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.26-a0-646-g5d7718319a (34)
01:55:25 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.26-a0-646-g5d7718319a
02:05:40 -!- maier is now known as kenran
02:45:36 <Cbrotell> Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.26-a0-646-g5d7718319a (34)
03:23:07 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.26-a0-646-g5d77183 (34)
03:31:10 <Kelbell> Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-3570-gb561bb485a
03:32:36 <Kelbell> Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.22.1-3009-g8657273e21
04:44:13 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
06:28:52 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/1576 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1576
06:28:53 <Cheibriados> 03Nikolai Lavsky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1576 * 0.26-a0-640-gcf54318: Cancel Heroism and Finesse on angering or abandoning Okawaru 10(20 minutes ago, 4 files, 33+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cf54318a90e4
09:40:59 <Henzell> porous (L27 OpCj) ASSERT(ray.pos() == oldpos) in 'beam.cc' at line 4416 failed. (Zot:4)
10:37:25 <Discord|> <03w​heals> two ray crashes in two days, i blame boulder beetles
10:37:34 <Discord|> <03w​heals> even though they haven't been merged yet
10:39:50 <gammafunk> wheals: you're secretly desperate for new boulder beetles to be merged
10:40:35 <gammafunk> you view this as a way to justify the return of crown of eternal torment
13:28:19 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.26-a0-646-g5d77183 (34)
13:50:43 <OdinFK> Hi there! I recently took DCSS for another spin after some time and "discovered" Absolute Zero. I am curious what the reasoning behind this design choice is.
13:51:25 <OdinFK> I don't want to be too aggressive about it, but I think it heavily conflicts with the design goal of "challenging game play". In the end game you just waltz through everything instead of planning how to take down some difficult pandemonium lord etc.
13:53:01 <OdinFK> Also considering how powerful Ozocubu's Refrigeration is as CC, this seems to shore up the weakness of Ice way too easily.
14:09:07 <advil> OdinFK: do you think that absolute zero is more or less powerful than other level 9 spells?
14:11:26 <advil> %git 0b37f7bc48d
14:11:26 <Cheibriados> 07hellmonk02 {gammafunk} * 0.25-a0-672-g0b37f7b: Absolute Zero, a replacement spell for Glaciate. 10(6 months ago, 10 files, 92+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0b37f7bc48d9
14:11:35 <advil> it may also be helpful to read the commit comment
14:11:47 <advil> (some of the nerfs described there have since happened, in particular range)
14:16:07 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i think it’s totally reasonable to discuss abs 0, both in terms of ‘power’ and also independently in terms of ‘feel’. it’s possible that the spell has a problem with one or both of those, though it’s not yet clear to me that it does
14:19:40 <Pinkbeast> I think the feel is terrible... but I can't help but notice the people who feel that mostly strongly are people who haven't used it (like me)
14:28:03 <OdinFK> I would think it is more powerful than other L9 spells, but I might be wrong. My issue is more the way it reduces endgame tactics to zero.
14:28:40 <OdinFK> I also agree that the feel is horrible. When I have the spell I involuntarily try to use it as little as possible because it just feels like cheating.
14:35:41 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> hm, reducing endgame tictacs to 0 seems like a strong claim
14:35:59 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> surely you still need to manage los, distance, resources etc
14:36:21 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> abs0 doesn’t make hellion isle any less dangerous
14:36:33 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> or tomb
14:36:35 <OdinFK> Okay, sure you need some positioning. Maybe the statement is a little bit hyperbolic, but you don't really have to work around weakness anymore
14:36:52 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> what do you mean by ‘work around weakness’?
14:36:53 <OdinFK> Hellions just lose to ozocubo though
14:37:22 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> well, that’s surely a different question 🙂
14:37:59 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> is fridge too strong now? seems like that could be another discussion
14:38:25 <OdinFK> I don't really think so, because it is the same school. Fire is very good at AoE, but not so great at having railgun-type effects and that is fine. Ice has premium spells in both, and on top of that both don't even need a 2nd school
14:40:06 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> so abs0 would be fine if fridge didn’t exist, and vice versa?
14:42:21 <OdinFK> From a power level perspective and maybe a flavour perspective, too, yes. It doesn't solve the issue that Abs0 feels like cheating, though
14:42:40 <OdinFK> I mean, that might be only my perspective, but Pinkbeast even said it before I did
14:44:48 <OdinFK> About the weakness thing: If you are Earth for example then you are pretty good against undead, statues etc, but you are not that great against evasive monsters in the open. Shields might also be annoying to use, so you need to be aware of that weakness and creative to shore it up. With fridge and abs0 I didn't feel much need to be creative.
14:46:52 <OdinFK> *shield might be annoying to fight against
14:53:09 <n1> It's interesting to think about the relative power l9 single school vs dual school spells ought to have
15:01:46 <Discord|> <12e​bering> " but you are not that great against evasive monsters in the open" if we're considering the L9's in this mix Shatter is right there
15:03:30 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i’d also note that pinkbeast said they hadn’t actually used L0 :p
15:03:39 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> er, abs0
15:04:56 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> abs0 can instakill a monster in one cast, but shatter, fire storm, and tornado can kill many. what about abs0 feels more like cheating than those?
15:05:22 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> if abs0 was the old spell and shatter was new, would we call shatter the unfair-feeling one?
15:10:29 <Discord|> <08w​ormsofcan> even if you ignore shatter earth still has zamboni hands and petrify
15:25:42 <n1> ??zamboni hands
15:25:42 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled zamboni_hands in my learndb.
15:28:03 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> ??bolt of hands
15:28:04 <Discord|> <04C​erebot> I don't have a page labeled bolt_of_hands in my learndb.
15:28:06 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> rip
15:31:50 <OdinFK> Firestorm is great, but it doesn't kill Cerebov right away. With Abs0 there is just not a single monster that you are ever afraid of. Even the worst Pan Lord rolls, who cares? I wouldn't presume that my opinion here is "right" ofc, but I have played the game on and off for a couple of years and this is the first time that I ever thought, wow, this
15:31:50 <OdinFK> is a really bad design choice (no offence). Might be a philosophy thing, but kill-that should just not exist. It stifles the need to think about the threats that the game throws at you.
15:32:32 <Discord|> <12e​bering> You keep repeating your point, without responding to whats been said in reply.
15:33:45 <OdinFK> Was that adressed at me? I don't understand the <ebering> thing. Anyway, was just about to write "I think I have made my point. I won't repeat it any further"... :D
15:33:49 <Discord|> <12e​bering> All level 9 spells are very powerful and all level 9 spells greatly reduce the threats the game throws at you, but you yourself acknowledged that AZ requires you to think about your position and decide whether or not to move or cast it or cast a different spell (like fridge).
15:34:00 <Discord|> <12e​bering> Yes, it was addressed at you
15:34:42 <geekosaur> it's showing who's speaking on the discord side
15:35:44 <OdinFK> Ah, okay. Thanks.
15:35:44 <OdinFK> I tried to reply to what has been said. Sorry, if I didn't.
15:35:52 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> abs0 does deal with single threats well (if no other enemies are closer - big if!), but doesn’t deal with multiple threats as well as other l9 spells
15:43:44 <Pinkbeast> I think the "feel" problem (more from reading what people who've er used it say) is that it doesn't work on many things as well as other level 9 spells, but what it does work on superbly is the game's "bosses", and that's why it feels bad.
15:52:01 <OdinFK> That's definitely the main thing. I used to make plans for these obstacles, even with L9 spells it was a consideration to try and steal a rune a teleport away, because I wouldn't know if I was capable of dealing 600 dmg to Cerebov before he wears me down etc. Now I just snap my finger and yawn. I'm totally aware that most of my deaths don't come
15:52:01 <OdinFK> from the bosses, but wondering if you are prepared enough for one is definitely a thrill that belongs to the game for me.
15:56:43 <Discord|> <08w​ormsofcan> you can use all the level 9 spells to kill things, absolute zero just has the tedium advantage of requiring one button press
15:57:00 <OdinFK> You can also look at it another way: Imagine a player fights one of the rune bosses in the game for the first time. Do you think they are afraid when they can snap their fingers? What do they learn from the fight? Anyway, good night, and thank you very much for listening/debating. Was a pleasure.
15:59:01 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/1577 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1577
15:59:01 <Cheibriados> 03Erlend Fagerheim02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1577 * 0.26-a0-647-g1b22d58: Remove -j4 from mac install instructions 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1b22d58e7c20
15:59:14 <Discord|> <12e​bering> The fundamental problem here is that this wasn't a discussion. Even after its been pointed out that AZ is more subtle than "snap fingers and win" you continue to characterize it that way.
16:36:12 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> if it turns cool climactic encounters into anticlimaxes, that is a fair objection regardless of overall power level
16:36:17 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> (if)
16:38:24 <Discord|> <12e​bering> Yeah, I agree that that implication is true. I just doubt the premise!
16:42:17 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i, like pinkbeast, cannot judge, on account of being retired
16:42:32 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i will hope for the best
17:03:39 <advil> I guess one idea would be to make a 1-cell ice storm that follows the monster and kills it in n turns
17:03:45 <advil> instead of 0 turns
17:05:25 <advil> which goes away if you leave range
17:07:27 <Discord|> <08w​ormsofcan> some kind of orb... of... destruction...?
17:19:43 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> @??orb of ice
17:19:44 <Discord|> <04C​erebot>  orb of ice (*) | Spd: 15 | HD: 30 | HP: 125-176 | AC/EV: 20/20 | non-living, see invisible, fly, unbreathing, vault | Res: magic(immune), fire+++, cold, elec+++, poison+++, rot++, neg+++, torm, napalm | XP: 9602 | Sp: glaciate (10-198) [!sil] | Sz: little | Int: human.
18:24:35 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.26-a0-646-g5d7718319a (34)
19:14:41 <Cheibriados> 03Erlend Fagerheim02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1577 * 0.26-a0-647-g5591085: Dynamic make jobs for mac install 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5591085dde57
19:47:53 <Cheibriados> Battlesphere doesn't move to shoot sometimes 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12365 by Siegurt
21:20:21 <gammafunk> /quit
21:20:25 <gammafunk> NO!
21:20:33 <gammafunk> let's try again