00:55:50 03Alex Jurkiewicz02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1259 * 0.25-a0-425-ga455207: Add Github Actions CI 10(3 weeks ago, 2 files, 247+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a455207e6d2f 01:25:21 03PleasingFungus02 07[embrace] * 0.25-a0-466-gd36c599: Forbid some corpse embracing 10(88 minutes ago, 2 files, 15+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d36c5991e916 01:25:21 03PleasingFungus02 07[embrace] * 0.25-a0-467-gaa6cb7f: Offend the gods with Cigotuvi's Embrace 10(76 minutes ago, 2 files, 16+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aa6cb7f9f463 01:25:30 Branch pull/1272 updated to be equal with embrace: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1272 01:49:17 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 02:28:06 The build was broken. (embrace - aa6cb7f #12621 : Nicholas Feinberg): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/646735424 03:13:36 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.25-a0-474-ga8a2ee3 (34) 09:33:00 -!- jilles_ is now known as jilles 09:36:09 -!- dolemite8 is now known as dolemite7 11:23:36 Stable (0.23) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23.1-91-gf373564dc4 12:55:40 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 18:22:58 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.25-a0-474-ga8a2ee3166 (34) 19:01:26 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 20:19:28 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 21:30:05 Based on both the Crawl Wiki description and what I see in the code, if I level up from 12 to 13 as a felid, and I've got 3 deaths and 0 extra lives, shouldn't I gain an extra life??? 21:47:24 you can only have two spare lives 21:47:35 three lives in total at any one time 21:49:16 I get that, but how is it relevant when I had 0 extra lives at that time? 21:50:05 have you been level 13 before? i don't think you can get extra lives for regaining levels you lost 21:50:29 yes, I had died at level 13 and gotten knocked down to 12, then leveled back up to 13 21:50:32 that's why I didn't get another life? 21:51:21 you'll get your "back taxes" at 14 21:51:39 (btw, that character already died its last death) 21:51:41 or whatever is the first new level you've never reached before 21:52:43 but that seems messed up to me. I effectively got punished for dying later instead of dying earlier. Had I lost my first three lives *before* reaching level 13, instead of hanging onto one of them until *after* reaching level 13, then I would have had 1 extra life when I reached level 13, instead of none 21:54:06 you could say the same thing if you'd reached level 13 and died 3 times in a row: "didn't i earn 4 extra lives? i'm being punished for doing well" 21:54:54 yeah, pretty much 21:55:15 there's just like, somewhat detailed rules about felid extra lives, and none of them are The Way Things Must Be, but some set of rules needs to apply, and the existing set isn't noticeably worse than other possibilities 21:55:48 at least other possibilities that have been considered / thought of 21:56:02 and maybe that thinking has been done pretty exhaustively -- I don't know 21:56:06 it could certainly change, if someone presented a proposal explaining why the current ruleset is bad and why some other ruleset would be more fun; and someone wanted to implement it 21:58:25 dcss circus animals got it right: felids START with NINE lives as GOD INTENDED 21:58:29 I guess one question I have is why the cap in the first place? Is the idea that it would be unfair for a player to be allowed to die more than twice in quick succession, and still be alive? 21:59:06 I think if you could die eight times in a row and be 8 XL down the game wouldn't be very fun 21:59:50 well if you're not having fun, or if you've fucked yourself so badly that progress is hopeless, you can always quit if you want :P 22:00:03 right, my uneducated guess is like, if you've died twice and not managed to beat the stuff you were fighting, you're not going to beat it after getting even weaker 22:00:25 i had forgotten about https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/9h6hx7/the_many_lives_of_a_felid/. good comic 22:00:30 yeah but that's not really a reason to *force* the game to end is it? like I said in response to alex's comment, a player can always quit if they wish to quit 22:01:27 sorry I'm not trying to be that annoying argumentative person...and I'm sure restructuring felid extra lives rules isn't at the top of the priority list :) 22:02:28 nobody should have to quit because the game wants them to experience more frustration 22:03:31 ....what? at no moment is the game ever forcing anyone to play 22:03:52 you don't completely forbid a player from creating a deep elf berserker...I guess that must mean the game wants some people to experience the frustration of trying to play one 22:05:19 like i said, feel free to put together a proposal explaining why the game would be more fun with some other rule. i'm not the only developer, i'm just guessing why the current rules may make sense 22:06:52 I mean, how about...suppose you get an extra life after every 3 level advances, like it is now, but instead of capping it at 2, following each death you have some "CannotRevive" condition on you until gaining some (somehow-appropriately-determined) amount of XP (kind of like skill/stat drain) 22:07:47 IMHO that would make a lot more sense than the current setup in more ways than one 22:08:15 (and, if it didn't go without saying, the CannotRevive condition means that a death is permanent :P) 22:10:01 that could be interesting. If you're serious about implementing that I think amalloy means a proposal as in a few paragraphs written up in a post/document format 22:10:31 okay 22:10:35 maybe I'll do that 22:10:55 about the idea of being "forced" to play. The philosophy document deals with this a little. The idea that if you give players a tedious but optimal strategy, they will use the optimal strategy. DCSS's goal is to make sure no such strategies exist 22:11:29 people play DCSS to win, and they also play to have fun. The best game design will make sure those goals are never in tension. A system where you can die 8 times and lose 8 XLs would put them in (a lot of) tension 22:11:48 okay, I hear what you are saying, it makes sense 22:12:21 there's a fun GDC talk about the idea of these tensions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ 22:13:41 except...if something gets to the point where it *isn't* going to be fun *and* you're *not* going to win (like having lost 8 XLs), then those goals really aren't in tension, are they? That's just when it's time to not play. Again, like my deep elf berserker analogy. Unless I'm still missing something 22:14:08 in other words, I get the idea of not wanting to have an unfun, uninteresting, optimal strategy 22:14:28 but we're not talking about something that's unfun and optimal...we're talking about something that's unfun *and* *un*-optimal 22:14:51 (and really, it's kind of moot, because what I'm wanting to propose still prohibits dying multiple times in succession) 22:15:42 if you have died 8 times in a row, continuing to play is optimal but unfun 22:16:21 how is it optimal? isn't that like saying if your finger slipped and you accidentally rolled up a DEBe, then the "optimal" thing to do is at least try to play it and see how it goes? 22:16:29 Again, a player always has the choice of quitting 22:16:34 if you quit, your chance of winning is 0% 22:16:54 nobody is playing DCSS looking forward to quitting, or giving up on a character 22:17:07 if DCSS puts you in that position it should be considered a failure of the game 22:17:44 okay, I guess I'm kind of getting it more 22:20:39 Still kind of seems to me like it would fit best with that philosophy to completely prohibit, rather than merely recommending against, any race/background/god combinations that are virtually unworkable. But I see what you're getting at. 22:21:03 I suppose it's also an important difference whether you are just starting a new game, or playing a character that you have been playing for some time and have some investment in 22:21:47 right. the new-game screen is the difficulty slider. you make nonoptimal choices on purpose. after that, you're supposed to be trying to win 22:22:33 yeah. If you wanted to win every time you'd play HOBe or whatever. But psychologically, people approach character setup differently to the rest of the game 22:26:18 Right 22:37:40 neat talk, alexjurkiewicz. i wasn't aware of this more recent talk; i would have pointed to PF's talk at roguelike celebration 2016 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MGNS39D0B0) 22:55:13 alexjurkiewicz / amalloy, okay, I did a write-up on my idea, can you point me at who/where to best send it? 22:57:05 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/docs/develop/contribution-process.md 23:03:10 ty 23:08:41 Do you think I should post it on the Tavern forum and see what the responses/reactions are like? I got the impression that there was someone more "official" to send it to in order to gauge whether it would be well received, but maybe not 23:09:13 the Tavern is where I posted and got feedback on the possibilities for my first contribution, so I guess maybe that's the way to go 23:10:50 i don't think tavern is very good for posting proposals. I would consider posting it as a wiki page on your fork and then opening a github issue about it 23:11:09 there's a lot of trolls on tavern and no real moderation, so the topics go off the rails quite easily 23:11:16 that's not really true 23:11:22 Psymania: I disagree with alexjurkiewicz and would say it's good to post your proposal on GDD 23:11:32 check out the GDD posting guidelines before you do that, though 23:11:46 GDD is still a good way to get a first pass over your proposal, if nothing else 23:13:38 quite a lot of proposals that later got merged have gotten good and meaningful feedback from tavern, and it definitely is moderated 23:14:57 Psymania: a grain of salt for your ggd post. There are a short list of posters with entrenched, extreme views who post on GDD instead of playing crawl 23:16:32 yeah, don't let strong detractors get you too down; you'll definitely learn something from the experience about how what you're proposing does and doesn't work in the game 23:16:43 that can lead to proposing something different getting at the same idea, often times 23:16:52 I mean, I had a great experience and got great feedback when I posted about my first contribution 23:17:00 there you go 23:17:30 okay, I'll do that, appreciate the help :) 23:28:00 i'd like to read your post whenever you have a link handy 23:37:57 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26786 23:38:04 ^ @ sedition 23:40:42 ty 23:43:13 advil: or amalloy could you please update the CSDC pin on the subreddit to point to https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/f05ezv/024_sudden_death_challenges_week_1_recap_and_week/ thanks 23:44:07 done