01:07:21 <Kelbell> Webtiles server stopped.
01:07:21 <Kelbell> Webtiles server started.
02:34:32 <Yermak> unwon command is bugged:
02:34:38 <Yermak> !unwon . ce
02:34:48 <Sequell> Unwon playable chars (ce): 0/1072x CeAr [0.00%], 0/1400x CeCj [0.00%], 0/3393x CeTm [0.00%], 0/4357x CeWr [0.00%], 0/6102x CeBe [0.00%], 0/8409x CeGl [0.00%]
02:35:02 <Yermak> I didn't try and fail to win CeGl 8409 times.
02:46:04 <alexjurkiewicz> !cmd !unwon
02:46:05 <Sequell> Command: !unwon => !lg * !experimental playable $(ignore $1)$* s=char title:"Unwon playable chars$(argst $*)" stub:"All playable chars have been won$(argst $*)" / won $(if $1 @$1) ?: N=0
02:46:37 <alexjurkiewicz> !lg yermak cear / won
02:46:38 <Sequell> 0/2 games for yermak (cear): N=0/2 (0.00%)
02:46:43 <alexjurkiewicz> :O
02:53:51 <Cheibriados> message_colour rc option is broken. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12143 by Yermak
02:59:11 <Cheibriados> Tiles for clouds of wisps of flame are renewed upon x-cursor changing its position. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12144 by Yermak
03:22:27 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.25-a0-246-g58704a1 (34)
03:30:56 <Kelbell> Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-2777-g6b872f2bae
03:33:15 <alexjurkiewicz> ebering: why does foxfire move so fast? It makes it sort of hard to track and understand as different from a non-instantaneous spell
03:51:02 <amalloy> alexjurkiewicz: i think it's supposed to be sorta close to instantaneous. the distinction i see is that you have to have adjacent spaces near you that have a path to the enemy
03:53:34 <Kelbell> Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.22.1-1737-g4f21e5b33c
03:56:41 <Yermak> I also like how casting it in a corridor makes you unable to retreat for a few turns. Kinda fun.
04:02:33 <amalloy> i wonder what that guy on reddit meant by "Foxfire needs to be swappable"
04:02:58 <amalloy> like, you should be able to swap positions with it? not being able to is the whole point
04:30:24 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
04:35:35 <Cheibriados> 03sdynet02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1212 * 0.25-a0-168-ged4b72a: Fix Ely's Divine Protection always protects at 120 piety. 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ed4b72ac222b
08:47:25 <advil> amalloy_: I suspect that is exactly what they mean, ime there was a sort of learning experience the first time you cast it in a corridor with an enemy nearby that wasn't extremely fun, and would trigger that kind of reaction
10:03:56 <ebering> you caan swap with it
10:03:59 <ebering> it just hits you
10:05:36 <ebering> alexjurkiewicz: amalloy has the right idea with why its so fast
10:56:56 <Cheibriados> New Sting doesn't always poison targets with rPois 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12145 by kitchen_ace
11:02:36 <advil> welp, it turns out that cao scoring was systematically discarding the first logline on daemon restart if there were any new loglines
11:24:21 <Lantell> Stable (0.23) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23.1-91-gf373564dc4
11:44:17 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07* 0.25-a0-247-g3ee35ab: Clarify Sting description (12145 / kitchen_ace) 10(68 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3ee35aba1eb7
11:45:07 <ebering> advil: "stringer"
11:45:22 <ebering> from Goratrix on discord
11:45:52 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07* 0.25-a0-248-g18654cf: stringer -> stinger (ebering) 10(23 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/18654cfe1597
11:46:47 <advil> didn't see your second msg before committing
11:46:51 <ebering> oh well
11:47:40 <kitchen_ace> but even things with just normal rPois aren't always poisoned, i.e. jellies, slimes, imps...
11:48:08 <kitchen_ace> which I assume they should be based on the description
11:48:12 <advil> that might be a bug then, I only checked against zombies
11:48:36 <kitchen_ace> https://imgur.com/1QtKUcl.png
11:49:55 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.25-a0-247-g3ee35aba1e (34)
11:53:26 <ebering> that might be a bug
11:53:31 <ebering> I'll take a look in a little bit
11:54:06 <kitchen_ace> I'll add the image to the mantis report
11:54:09 <kitchen_ace> thanks
11:55:34 <advil> yes, I think there's a bug, poison_monster has another resist check; poison arrow overcame it by setting levels to 4
11:55:48 <advil> so the call to poison_monster effectively does nothing
12:03:19 <advil> hm, maybe that's wrong
12:04:19 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.25-a0-248-g18654cfe15 (34)
12:06:49 <advil> %git monster_resists_this_poison
12:06:49 <Cheibriados> Could not find commit monster_resists_this_poison (git returned 128)
12:06:50 <advil> er
12:06:54 <advil> $git 3cb921fa5982
12:06:59 <advil> %git 3cb921fa5982
12:06:59 <Cheibriados> 07ebering02 * 0.25-a0-225-g3cb921f: Positional magic 🐍: Revise Sting 10(3 weeks ago, 5 files, 14+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3cb921fa5982
12:07:36 <advil> did I just misunderstand what the spell is supposed to do? the `if (pbolt.origin_spell != SPELL_STING)` seems to not apply poison to resistant monsters for sting
12:08:00 <kitchen_ace> yeah that was what I was about to say
12:08:35 <kitchen_ace> and partly why I'm unsure what the intended behaviour is
12:10:29 <kitchen_ace> and even without that line, it passes (int) stacks / 2 to poison_monster, which I think ends up being 0 for sting
12:10:37 <advil> yes, it would
12:12:03 <ebering> that's something that got lost in a rebase shuffle :/
12:12:10 <ebering> I had meant to use div_rand_round there
12:12:52 <advil> is the conditional intended?
12:12:52 <ebering> I'll push a fix in a little bit
12:12:52 <advil> ok
12:12:58 <ebering> it went through two iterations; the first used the conditional
12:13:17 <ebering> the second conditioned stacks on the spell and then switched to div rand rounding
12:13:27 <advil> just double check the description I pushed too (if you use div_rand_round it needs a "may")
12:13:37 <ebering> will do
12:16:22 <advil> it might just be better to max stacks at 1, if you kept the old sting to hit
12:35:31 <gammafunk> ebering's reflog is a scary place!
13:14:43 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
13:15:48 <amalloy> ebering: tried out positional magic last night as a NaFE btw. foxfire seems pretty good for a level 1 spell, and i found it fun to play with
13:16:08 <amalloy> i guess i made the positioning harder on myself by playing Na
14:13:09 <ebering> amalloy: cool
17:12:15 <Gretell> svalbard (L17 OpAs) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Desolation)
17:38:18 <ebering> !crashlog
17:38:37 <Sequell> 21459. svalbard, XL17 OpAs, T:32269 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.23/svalbard/crash-svalbard-20191203-221156.txt
18:06:39 <Bcadren> Can someone kick off my fork? *sigh* Sorry.
18:22:50 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.25-a0-248-g18654cfe15 (34)
18:25:07 <amalloy> i don't remember the last time i've seen a crash caused by putting on a ring
18:27:06 <amalloy> it looks like it was just trying to write a byte. maybe some error in the file operation?
18:29:08 <advil> putting on a ring maybe not, but my take on that was "oh a shopping list crash"
18:29:52 <advil> it's also a few versions old
18:30:08 <amalloy> oh, so it is. i didn't know shopping list crashes were common anyway
18:30:20 <advil> possibly the ring was in some inconsistent state by being mid-wear-id during the level excursion?
18:30:37 <advil> they are not uncommon
18:31:01 <advil> maybe "level excursion crash" is the best category
18:33:30 <advil> too bad it's  not 0.24, that would probably be replicable using the seed + just finding all the plausible ring types in stores
18:33:56 <advil> "a few versions old" = last version
19:57:24 <alexjurkiewicz> ancient history, didn't you read dynast's post
21:26:35 <advil> I did read that post
21:26:41 <advil> I found it kind of hard to follow
21:29:25 <advil> what does "total lack of respect for the game's meta" even mean?
21:30:54 <Pinkbeast> There's another odd one about voting on changes where, eh, if the OP wants Gooncrawl it's right there
21:31:10 <advil> yes, I commented in that one
21:31:23 <advil> I think that is just someone who hasn't seen these cycles before
21:31:27 <gammafunk> oh, the glorious history of dcss forks where the players vote and it fixes all the problems
21:31:54 <gammafunk> including that one that basically died after a month or two
21:32:31 <gammafunk> and yeah, as someone who's been involved with dev since 2013 can attest, this is a very mild iteration of said cycles
21:33:09 <gammafunk> the nastiness during the LRD changes was significantly worse imo, but even that wasn't much in the end
21:33:26 <advil> yeah, and stuff like haste spell removal
21:33:34 <gammafunk> in fact I think the recentness of that is making me forget of stuff that happened in the pre 0.21 versions, yeah
21:33:41 <gammafunk> haste removal, yellow wand removals
21:33:50 <gammafunk> removal of rmut/clarity, etc
21:34:28 <advil> purple chunks
21:34:29 <gammafunk> nothing really compares to the removal of Forest where we actually lost two highly active devs
21:34:32 <gammafunk> right
21:34:48 <gammafunk> we actually lost three devs, althogh r-i did sort of return a bit off and on
21:35:07 <gammafunk> although I believe the high water mark is still MD removal
21:35:48 <gammafunk> that predates me, so maybe that's more of a legend of player revolt than an actuality of it
21:36:11 <advil> yeah, I mentioned that in my post; interestingly I was just thinking about that in the context of http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/date-stats.png where in fact MD removal is a gateway to the steady climb towards our current playerbase plateau
21:36:47 <advil> I mean, hard to test a counterfactual, but not a lot of evidence there that MD removal damaged the player community
21:37:49 <gammafunk> I've always just thought that we'd have to introduce some drastic new technology to see growth like the during the 0.9 days
21:37:58 <gammafunk> webtiles was such a big development
21:38:33 <advil> yeah, my guess is that the plateau is because of the ways in which we don't do anything resembling advertising or conventional video game distribution
21:39:00 <advil> something like the carrying capacity for a game of this sort in the world without those
21:39:33 <gammafunk> there is that as well, yeah; I guess being an open source roguelike with the slower pace of dev that volunteers bring means it can be a challenge to see a lot of growth
21:39:33 <advil> honestly if we did expand at that rate again our infrastructure would keel over
21:39:33 <gammafunk> hehe
21:39:58 <gammafunk> one of us just needs to get rich and buy a lot of infrastructure and dedicate themselves as a *real* head dev
21:40:14 <advil> heh
21:40:32 <gammafunk> it is interesting hearing some of the stories coming from the CDDA community
21:40:40 <gammafunk> some things sound very similar to what we've gone through
21:41:38 <advil> how so? I don't know much about that game
21:42:12 <gammafunk> very different game (open world survival roguelike), but open source and pretty big now, with a lead dev in the sense that he took over the project and has been managing it nicely
21:42:42 <gammafunk> is active about merging community stuff but is pretty no-nonsense and not tolerating of rude people
21:43:05 <gammafunk> so he and the project is a frequent target of trolls from the usual places
21:43:51 <gammafunk> I don't actually play the game myself, since it's not my cup of tea
21:44:09 <advil> ah I see
21:57:59 <kitchen_ace> That guy with the voting thing was actually proposing a worse idea than normal: crawl devs still come up with the ideas but then players vote on whether they should be implemented
21:58:14 <kitchen_ace> Hard to imagine anything getting done that way
21:58:18 <gammafunk> heh
21:59:50 <advil> heh yeah
22:00:02 <advil> I think the cxc thing was doing that, ish?
22:00:06 <advil> hahahaha I think I accidentally enabled seeded mode on the servers via rc file at some point
22:00:12 <advil> anyways, it works!
22:01:09 <gammafunk> is that a distinct game type, like sprint?
22:01:12 <advil> yeah
22:01:33 <gammafunk> so admins need to add a link for it?
22:01:33 <advil> I realized it because someone messaged me asking if I knew where to find the morgue, and then I did find it ... on cbro
22:01:57 <advil> you can start a seeded game just by setting `game_seed = x` in your rc file, is the accident
22:02:06 <gammafunk> ah
22:02:16 <advil> for more than that they do need to add a link, I've been planning on enabling it on cao soon anyways
22:02:19 <gammafunk> hrm, well in that case...wouldn't the seeded game go into the main log file?
22:02:23 <advil> nope
22:02:28 <advil> it uses its own logfile
22:02:30 <gammafunk> oh, cool
22:02:50 <gammafunk> right, crawl binary internally sees the game type and knows to use a different file
22:03:16 <advil> yeah...that part is all tested out locally and should be fine
22:03:23 <advil> + on cpo
22:03:46 <advil> I *was* planning on gradually setting it up on cao in a staged way where I could monitor it, but this way works too
22:07:45 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
22:10:47 <kitchen_ace> About Dynast: despite being an extremely strong player, really likes thematic play styles and options. The "meta" comment is, I think, a lament about game balance taking precedent over letting people play how they want.
22:11:02 <kitchen_ace> at least that's how I read it, I'm not entirely sure and I don't want to put words in his mouth
22:12:43 <advil> it seemed like his exact take was evolving a bit
22:13:41 <gammafunk> well, I've found them to be a profoundly negative person for a very long time, kind of escalating when they got banned from tavern
22:14:09 <gammafunk> was just constantly taking pot shots at every change with little rhyme or reason behind it other than wanting to express negativity
22:14:46 <gammafunk> so I blocked them not too long after said tavern ban and haven't conversed with them since aside from a short period when we were both playing infra arcana
22:15:19 <gammafunk> what I think is that a certain type of player will play the game incessently and certainly become very good at it, but also become progressively more negative and looking for reasons to express that
22:17:21 <gammafunk> so I think it's fine to glean what you can by people like that who routinely make these "done with the game" posts (often a given person makes then every few months)
22:17:31 <alexjurkiewicz> the "devs propose, players vote" model is from old school runescape, where devs post frequent polls that require 70% approval(!!!) for ideas to be implemented
22:17:32 <gammafunk> but I would not take the existance of these people or these posts as anything too profound
22:18:16 <gammafunk> I mean, if it works for a project, it works for a project I guess! really would depend on the pool of developers and the resources they have
22:18:35 <gammafunk> is runescape an open source, volunteer driven game?
22:18:49 <kitchen_ace> yeah I was about to say, the thing about runescape is that they need to make money
22:19:04 <alexjurkiewicz> I'm not endorsing the model! Just giving some context
22:19:30 <gammafunk> yeah, comparing crawl dev to development of a commercial game doesn't get you very far
22:21:27 <gammafunk> alexjurkiewicz: oh and to be clear, I was legimately asking if it was commercial, wasn't rhetorical question
22:22:22 <gammafunk> my hot take is that ebering has done rather well for making such a vast magic rework and *not* getting more players upset
22:23:13 <gammafunk> rework elemental magic, and people call you a saviour. remove wall busting from one spell and suddenly you're the bad guy!
22:23:36 <alexjurkiewicz> yeah, osrs is monthly subscription
22:24:08 <alexjurkiewicz> there has been a muted reaction to the spell changes so far. I wonder if launching an experimental and including new content helped to mitigate any backlash?
22:24:16 <alexjurkiewicz> I wonder if = I bet that
22:24:39 <gammafunk> that and his somewhat aggressive calls for player feedback
22:25:08 <alexjurkiewicz> yeah. Can't claim to be not listened to after a million threads and you didn't post any feedback
22:26:56 <gammafunk> advil: btw, did you have any plans or ideas for some kind competition infrastructure for seeded play? I guess I'm thinking something that might showcase the functionality a bit more
22:27:10 <gammafunk> obviously just having accessible as an online game mode will help a lot
22:27:54 <advil> alexjurkiewicz yeah, the poster in that thread was explicitly comparing to runescape
22:28:29 <advil> gammafunk I will add a scoring thing of some kind, still working out the details
22:29:24 <advil> would also like to figure out *something* involving seeding for a tournament
22:29:34 <gammafunk> yep
22:30:07 <gammafunk> we kind of need to actually work on the tournament changes significantly before the event
22:30:27 <ebering> someday
22:30:29 <gammafunk> what I'm going to start with is just a wiki page outlining all the core ideas of discussed changes
22:30:29 <advil> yeah
22:30:40 <ebering> good start
22:31:57 <ebering> This is definitely less chaos than I was expecting post merge
22:32:33 <gammafunk> if we can remove bolt spells and get away with it...what else can we remove???
22:33:04 <ebering> mountain dwarves again!
22:33:04 <advil> save compat
22:33:04 <kitchen_ace> ...food? >_>
22:33:09 <advil> also tealizard thinks you should buff something, I do not know what to make of that
22:33:29 <alexjurkiewicz> +advil | save compat <-- KEEP BEATING THAT DRUM
22:33:51 <advil> ebering's doing his part too, he even  used an extra minor tag the other day
22:37:18 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
22:52:51 <Cheibriados> 03ebering02 07* 0.25-a0-249-g542a224: Fixup Sting and the description (advil, kitchen_ace) 10(3 minutes ago, 2 files, 5+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/542a2242a211
22:58:51 <gammafunk> false fixup!
23:02:56 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.25-a0-249-g542a2242a2 (34)
23:27:32 <alexjurkiewicz> fyi: dcssssat will open for registration this weekend