00:17:38 a suggestion for the CK start PR is to not give any weapon choice and to give the player a random weapon. Perhaps Xom could offer an active way for players to brand any weapon with chaos. From a win% perspective using that ability would be surely suboptimal, but certainly more fun for many players 00:19:29 New branch created: pull/1013 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1013 00:19:30 03Joshua Gelbard02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1013 * 0.24-a0-190-g2cee78a: Add a menu shortcut to select last unequipped item 10(2 days ago, 10 files, 37+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2cee78a30651 01:47:13 that ability would be optimal very often, chaos brand is really good 03:48:50 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.24-a0-189-g5d897e9 03:51:29 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.22.1-104-g37b02acf5e 06:04:56 ebering: please read the rationale behind the PR, I have explained everything there. Also, please consider the fact that starting with a brand weapon scroll does not automatically mean that you will be starting with a ranged chaos weapon, there's a huge difference (try playing it). It took me 5 deaths before I came across the first ranged weapon on D4 ( a sling ) that I was able to brand as a chaos weapon then. It is no way comparabl 06:04:56 e to entering the dungeon with a chaos weapon already in your pocket. 06:12:53 Also, having actually tested this setup and not just theoretisizing around its philosophical implications, I can assure you that the power of a ranged chaos weapon quickly fades as the game progresses past the beginning. For a hybrid race such a s the gnoll, a ranged attack is necessary and to keep Xom amused at a somewhat more safe distance the ranged chaos weapon is the missing piece of the puzzle (not something that completely shi 06:12:53 fts game's balance). Finally, I am not asking anyone to implement this for myself, as I have already posted the code and I am willing to do the necessary adjustments. I know this is an improvement to the game that others will also enjoy. 06:37:36 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 07:02:56 You can't assure people that the power of ranged chaos weapon fades, because ranged launcher attacks are very strong generally and chaos brand is strong generally, so combining them is certainly strong 07:03:21 also ranged attacks are not necessary for gnolls (nor for any other race) 07:04:19 so you're saying I shouldn't be playing crawl in the first place? 07:04:46 I don't understand what you mean by that question 07:04:47 but I'm pointing out that some of the claims you've made just now are not correct 07:05:24 obviously if you want to stop using ranged weapons (chaos or otherwise) or if you want to alway use launchers when you play gnoll, you can do that 07:05:46 even the slightest change that comes outside the project can be picked on, one can always bring an argument to support any of their opinion, basic demagogy 07:06:15 what I am trying to achieve here is to expand the options for playing CK, it makes it more fun, feel free not to do it if you want to keep it hardcore or whatever 07:06:33 that's why the scroll only comes when choosing unarmed option 07:07:07 all contributions go through criticism, design changes, evaluation, etc; that is not "demagogy", just the the developers doing what they do 07:07:47 yep, that's probably why we have so many forked open-source projects in this world 07:08:01 CK is just thought of as a challenge class (xom can kill you regardless of what you do in early dungeon, and certainly giving a chaos branding scroll would not change this fact) 07:10:06 that's not to say that changes to how xom/CK grants chaos couldn't happen happen, but whatever the change it has to feel like it's interesting and justified 07:17:32 quite honestly, I wouldn't be playing crawl if it didn't have the gnoll race and the chaos knight class and I believe part of why crawl is so popular is because it has "options in the menu" for a very wide variety of playing styles / preferences. a non-trivial option to role-play ( stick to xom and chaos brand ) a ranged chaos knight enriches this variety by adding one more strategy to the player's disposal. you can call it pussy-mod 07:17:32 e CK if it makes you feel any better but it doesn't change the fact that more people would play as CK and from the point of view of the project's success, there really shouldn't even be a question here. I would understand it if the proposed change was not compatible with the role-play aspect of CK, but quite the opposite, it encourages the CK role-play. Perhaps most importantly, it enables the player to express themselves and be orig 07:17:32 inal about how they play CK, they may hold on to the scroll until they find an upgraded weapon later in the dungeon ( which is very risky of course ). 07:21:38 perhaps I'm from a different school of thought, but in my experience as a game developer and as a player, edge cases are what make a game interesting as they provide lore to the game. discovering the intricacies of the game are part of the fun and will in the end put the player in awe. just look at dwarf fortress. it's like comparing abstract art to very detailed art. which one is more compelling? probably a matter of taste. 07:25:00 for those who might be interested, I only play gnoll because it does not require me to micro-manage the skill and spell learning. I find it boring, annoying and time-consuming. I wasn't like that 10 years ago but as time has passed I've become a more of a casual player, and in the games that I develop I try to save the player from micro-management as much as possible. 07:26:06 so it's quite a lucky coincidence that crawl happens to have a race just for my playing preference and ironically it's called the Gnoll, and my online username has been hyena for the past 15 years :D 07:27:41 the reason chaos knight ( xom ) is my favorite combo is because it represents the chaotic neutral alignment, which just happens to be my real-life alignment ( I've taken the test many times ) test itself is here, for those who might be interested in taking it: http://easydamus.com/alignmenttest.html 09:42:13 anyone seen the latest Ultraviolent4 GOTM video? looks like something weird going on with Gozag bribe and pregen dungeons. Bribing only works on the current branch level but not on subsequent ones. Is that because the monsters are pregenerated using gozag_set_bribe in dungeon.cc? (try to understand source for the first time, sorry if wrong :) 09:57:29 it's supposed to trigger on sight 09:57:57 it's possible to just have really bad luck, but there could conceivably be some interaction with pregen 09:58:42 he bribed Vaults on cleaned V4, then went down but not a single monster was bribed on V5 09:59:02 he also bribed Zot while on Z1 and that bribed Z1 monsters fine 09:59:14 but not a single monster on subsequent Zot levels 10:00:44 but then monsters on the orbrun were bribed 10:02:57 hm, yeah there could be an issue 10:03:26 so basically it looked like when you apply the bribe, it changes attitude of current level monsters only 10:03:49 not any others (except the ones that are additionally generated on the orbrun) 10:03:57 <|amethyst> advil: there's a call to gozag_set_bribe in builder() 10:04:23 yes, but that's not relevant, what's supposed to happen is that it's called via catchup_dactions when you reenter a level 10:04:44 but I'm not sure that's getting called right for pregenerated levels 10:05:26 if I'm right you could actually fix it by going up and down again 10:08:02 well, it's relevant in that it does need to be replaced by something else for pregen 10:14:19 he also did some walking back and forth... but it didn't bribe anyone and actually un-bribed a OOF on Zot 1 that was neutral 10:14:24 really weird 10:14:55 well, unbribing is a sign that it was working, because that's also handled via the same call 10:15:36 yeah, but that OOF was bribed on Zot1 when he called the bribe 10:15:44 that was the only time it worked 10:15:51 and then on orbrun 11:20:45 ??bribe branch 11:20:46 bribe branch[1/2]: Gozag ability which costs 3000 gold. While active, monsters have a chance to become either friendly or "good-neutral" (like freed slaves) when seeing you, until your money wears out, upon which time they become pacified. 11:20:57 ??bribe branch[2 11:20:57 bribe branch[2/2]: You can bribe a branch while standing on the entrance to it! 11:21:04 it's only first notice, right? 11:30:29 I like Hyena's enthusiasm for the CK background and I think somekind of change is possible. 11:32:01 Personally, I feel that the change should be for someone joining Xom with a different background since, as the CosPlay challenge this week shows, it is obtimal to join Xom as late as possible. 11:34:14 Ideally, I would like Xom to brand chaos on a weapon when joining...whether it's as a CK start or during the game when joining Xom. 11:36:45 I'm really puzzled about this whole discussion 11:38:02 is the idea that CK is supposed to be a good background where you get to make choices?? 11:48:18 does anyone who has dealt with them before foresee any issues if dactions run on entering new levels (i.e. always run)? 11:48:34 I haven't found any so far, but I'm wondering if there's some reason it wasn't done this way 11:50:41 There are some options on the table that more or less achieve the same result for CK. I had a PR earlier that added ranged weapons to gnoll since gnoll is a jack of all trades and should have the option to enter the dungeon with any weapon type. as a result gnoll CKs could start with a basic ranged chaos weapon. however, I did not like that solution myself too much because the startup weapon choices exceeded the number 7 so they had 11:50:42 to be trimmed somehow, it felt hacky so I didn't mind ebering closing that PR. other options include removing the chaos brand from CK's initial weapons and just giving them the scroll of brand (chaos) weapon. I've also thought about making regular stone throws have chaos effect when having Xom for the deity (to have guaranteed ranged chaos attacks without the need for a launcher and thus having sort of weaker ranged chaos option) 11:52:23 why should CK be guaranteed ranged chaos attacks? 11:52:45 but the scroll method seems most elegant and has the smallest footprint on the existing codebase 11:52:45 tbh if anything I would remove ranged chaos brands entirely 11:53:04 why? 11:54:03 ranged chaos is kinda broken 11:54:15 the distance mitigates many of the tradeoffs of the brand 11:54:46 to be clear, I don't have any specific plan to remove it, but I don't understand why making it easier to get would be a good thing 11:55:04 it would be easier only for CK 11:55:37 not sure why you can't see how much sense it makes, chaos knight by all standards of logic, should use chaos brand 11:57:01 uh 11:57:13 why? 11:58:05 we have an option here to make the game more colorful by adding a new dimension to the gameplay of CK. getting rid of chaos ranged is pretty backwards if you asked me. 11:59:03 might as well as only have human with 4 basic classes ( cleric, mage, warrior, thief ), that would be dull but at least there would be no edge cases or anything :D 12:00:32 yes, removing a broken brand special case would definitely be equivalent to that 12:00:45 and that is exactly the kind of argument that's going to convince this channel, also 12:00:48 anyways 12:02:20 how do you evaluate whether something is broken? it's not that you could easily finish the game as a CK if only you had the ranged weapon. nothing is broken, get real 12:02:58 I have played that combo many times and it's not much easier, but it is more enjoyable 12:03:32 !gamesby Hyena 12:03:33 Hyena has played 21 games, between 2013-01-27 14:55:22 and 2014-06-11 17:14:36, won 0, high score 29048, total score 49080, total turns 118746, play-time/day 0:02:16, total time 18:56:00. 12:03:40 I play offline 12:03:52 for obvious reasons 12:05:20 something tells me that the general vibe here has been to move in the direction of removal of CK, so obviously my attempt to blow some life into that background "goes against the fur" 12:06:22 no one is planning on removing ck 12:07:00 but you aren't providing convincing arguments for this change based on gameplay, it doesn't actually fit with the way xom is structured, and you aren't listening to feedback about the proposal 12:07:41 not agreeing = not listening? 12:08:07 tell me about how Xom is structured, perhaps we can find some common ground 12:08:58 but also, try playing the PR I have posted and see if it is that bad, stick with xom and use a gnoll. 12:09:53 you can say that chaos brand on ranged weapons "feels kinda broken" but you are forgetting that we're speaking of a strictly Xom gameplay here, which in itself balances things vastly against the player 12:10:18 other devs have already responded re how xom is structured, I'm not going to rehash 12:13:20 also, let's not forget, that chaos effects have the possibility to buff up the enemy, such as hasting them, giving them berserk and so on. if you consider this fact then it doesn't feel kinda broken anyway, does it? 12:14:05 that's exactly why (I explicitly said just now) chaos ranged is broken... 12:14:14 because the ranged aspect lets you mitigate the downsides 12:14:16 you think chaos should only cause negative effectS? :S 12:15:08 same thing as with a wand of random effects 12:15:30 use while on the <, if it berserks the monster, go < until it wears off 12:15:52 so if the ranged weapon has a little bit of an advantage ( the whole reason we are having this conversation in the first place btw ) then it's immediately all bad? don't throw the baby out with the bath water, we're speaking with CK that is supposed to be the only background who actually should gain some kind of a benefit from Xom, so why not give them easier access to ranged chaos? 12:18:28 I'm really not sure what's your agenda here advil and others who seem resistant to accepting this as an improvement, do you want to make the crawl experience worse? In the grand scheme of things this is such a minor tweak, and if it was not done, then people such as myself would literally modify the code to play that combo, which defeats the purpose of blocking this tweak, unless you want to torture players and work against their wil 12:18:28 l of course 12:19:29 it's open source, we would have no objection to you doing whatever you want with it in that respect 12:20:08 yes, I am lucky enough to be a programmer myself, unfortunately many others are not as lucky 12:20:29 taking the altruistic position here and reaping extra positive karma :D 12:20:30 it's a bit of hyperbole to suggest that GnCK players without access to ranged chaos weapons are being "tortured" though 12:20:49 and I think so far no one really believes this would be a good addition to the game 12:21:04 if you want to make that case, please go back to the very clear way that ebering laid it for you 12:21:11 have a look at the PR 12:21:14 many have liked it 12:21:25 so saying "no one" is the hyperbole here, if anything 12:22:05 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1012 12:23:24 github likes are ... not an argument that a change is good 12:24:12 12:25:13 tell me advil, why do you want to spoil other people's fun at playing crawl? 12:25:26 I'm just going to literally repost what ebering said, which is what the argument would have to be: "To make a design case for a ranged CK start (independent of implementation details) you'd need to 1) make the case that CK as a background isn't meeting its design goal, and 2) adding a ranged option to the background would address that problem. And 3) adding a ranged option would not be unbalanced." 12:25:27 what difference does it make to you personally? 12:25:36 and I'm done 12:27:19 as I replied to ebering already, this is not about adding a ranged weapon to the initial weapon options. probably a misunderstanding there, so you shouldn't really carry it forward 12:29:26 Hyena: your fundamental premise is that Xom followers (CK or otherwise) need more access to chaos ranged weapons. 12:30:04 (Not at start, but at some point) 12:30:13 <|amethyst> hm, it looks like there is a kind of grindy way to increase your chance of getting a chaos-branded launcher 12:30:22 yes, pretty much, if they want to have that better access ( which they would if they started unarmed and got the chaos brand scroll ) 12:30:54 <|amethyst> which is to cart around enemies with launchers in the hopes that Xom upgrades them 12:31:08 the alternative already exists and it's simply torturous, you would have to re-enter the dungeon many many times until you come across a ranged chaos weapon naturally 12:32:07 Backgrounds are meant to be a starting kit, placing a strategic consumable (special cased or not) in the background is a non-starter, so let's focus on the premise. 12:32:56 I, and several other devs have expressed that we reject that premise. Chaos launchers are very strong and are meant to function as a rare treat. 12:34:10 There's no argument that it'd be more fun for some players: being strong is fun. 12:35:24 in case of Xom/CK that would be a necessary addition, the game is still going to be hard 12:36:14 A tip for interacting with the devteam: suggesting that we are despots and alleging conspiracies are not good conversation strategies; doing it repeatedly will probably get future contributions ignored. 12:36:49 I would totally agree if it made that big of a difference for CK of Xom, but it does not, just try playing it, have you tried? 12:40:44 "but it does not", here's the fundamental disagreement. One CK I played got an early chaos longbow and it was much easier than the others. 12:41:04 much easier can still be pretty darn hard 12:41:14 Yes, it's Xom. 12:41:17 That's fine. 12:42:19 that's what I thought. you don't want to change that combo because it's supposed to be hard even though it could remain hard and be more enjoyable 12:43:20 Xom is supposed to be a high-variance experience. Always hard, but sometimes you get sweet perks and sometimes you get outright killed. 12:43:40 Increasing the rate of sweet perks moves the mean (not good), and decreases the variance (also not good). 12:43:49 why don't you want external contributions? what's the matter, really? 12:44:29 from the feedback of players I can tell my idea is not that bad 12:44:44 I'm not coming to push you out and hijack the project, don't worry, I wouldn't have time for this anyway 12:46:05 Ok. I'm done. Saying we don't want external contributions is patently false; we do reserve the right to curate and disagree with external contributions and there's a big disclaimer about that in the contributor's guide. 12:46:40 <|amethyst> Do you think that if (say) I proposed the same change, the response wouldn't be the same 12:48:29 I do not know, but I do know that a newcomer such as myself is having hard time blending in, when his idea gets shot down left and right without convincing arguments 12:51:05 Sprint module Arena of Blood no longer spawns most enemies 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11927 by throwawayaccount 12:52:45 I know that several people here have made it look like they are trying to convince me, but why don't I feel convinced? Why do I instead feel that I'm being pushed out for some other reason that can't be said out loud? You combine this with the knowledge that it's a common issue with "open-source" projects and we're getting somewhere. I know blender has had its weird things in its lead, and I know very well how bitcoin's github was hi 12:52:45 jacked by the core dev team :D so it's not really uncommon and purely based on statistics it is more probable that a newcomer's ideas are shot down due to social issues and personal insecurities rather than objective reasoning. if we had objective reasoning we would listen to the players, or at least play and test the PR that I have made 12:55:58 oh but most importantly, a healthy response would be a constructive response, one which is not seeking to thwart new ideas for the sake of it, but finding ways to make them happen... what about a compromise? It can't be that bad that you couldn't even find a reasonable compromise, can it? 13:18:10 -!- greqrg is now known as tonehack 13:19:28 |amethyst, certainly not 13:32:43 a certain element of is it definitely the lack of personability of most new contributors, because they come in here having already done work that they deem entirely altruistic, and don't come in with a neutral (or positive) demeanor, expecting to defend their work in an objective way against multiple by-default-uncertain experienced developers. 13:33:04 and there's nothing wrong with the devs being people and having personalities and naturally being repulsed by someone who is behaving slightly tersely, but to pretend there isn't a culture of "this is ours" in this channel is to exhibit exceptional blindness. the easiest and most comical example i can pull out is gammafunk enthusiastically scolding ebering for making a github project for the release and not informing him, at 13:33:04 most hours after he'd done it. 13:33:23 if you honestly believe you treat new contributions with the same respect you treat your own or your peer's work, you're drinking some dank koolaid. 13:36:03 (this is not a random rant, I like hyena's idea) 13:47:59 Um, I'm not sure where we're pretending there isn't a culture of "this is ours". It says so right in the contrib guide and we regularly re-iterate that in the process the devteam has the final say. I'm not sure what your example is supposed to demonstrate; I'm a member of the team and a fellow team member pointed out that I a thing I'd done was not achieving the goals I had for it. 13:52:24 03advil02 07* 0.24-a0-190-g063869c: Run dactions on entering any level, fixing gozag+pregen (Goratrix) 10(7 minutes ago, 3 files, 9+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/063869c3723e 14:02:58 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.24-a0-190-g063869c372 (34) 14:11:17 i'm assuming you misunderstood the distinction rather than admitted to it, but "this is ours" is meant to represent developers that care less about a project than they do about their own standing, and will hold a project hostage if it suits them. 14:17:49 as far as i'm aware most if not every person on the dev team has done a tremendous amount of work on crawl, and it certainly isn't the case that their contributions or opinions shouldn't be respected, if not just as a result of the work they've done. but that doesn't mean you should evolve beyond curators of circumstance into something resembling a clique 14:22:55 the example was meant to demonstrate the immediate and visceral response someone on the dev team had to being excluded from something related to crawl, even though it was entirely their own ignorance (rather than any deliberate attempt) that excluded them. and it was only for a few hours, and the idea, as far as i remember, was a good one. 15:14:00 I wonder if there would be a way to include a version # as part of a seed string in some future version 15:15:08 also, general Q: I was considering having the seed entry field for offline games prefill with the last ended game's seed, is that going to far? (this is yet another idea stolen from brogue) 15:16:02 would you have to save the seed to something like a .pref file (or whatever the current file is we use for last combo) 15:20:26 yeah, but I converted it to do that the other day for ones you manually enter anyways 15:21:40 it sounds convenient and I'm not sure it poses any problem or confusion given that the UI lets you clear a seed easilly 15:21:40 so it's a matter of updating that pref on game end 15:21:50 I should probably look at the current UI after you've updated it 15:31:38 prefill or no a "previous seed" button would be nice for players making multiple attempts at a seed 15:32:15 yeah, I assume the idea is to prevent having to pull up the morgue file and manually copy it 15:37:27 yeah, that's the idea -- I guess I was partly wondering about the cultural question 15:47:04 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 15:54:23 I guess I never introduced myself either, and as we all know, everyone always hates the new kid on the block. probably not going to change anything if I do it now, but just to give a bit of background about myself anyway: I made my first video game at the age of 12 (I'm 30 now), I work as a game designer and developer in a bitcoin casino, I also own and develop a bitcoin service https://cryptograffiti.info that allows storing custom 15:54:23 data on the block chain. I've been developing a game somewhat in a secret for the past 2 years that is inspired a lot by dungeon crawl, except it's real-time much like MUDs and more graphical. I used to play MUD a lot when I was younger. For those who care about academic dick measurements, I have a master's degree in software engineering and my master's thesis was about image morphing and fluid dynamics. my language of choice is C+ 15:54:23 + and I've been programming in it for 14 years. In my free time I'm either pumping iron at the gym or playing dungeon crawl. the latter is the reason why I ended up here, because I wanted to give something back for the good time I've had playing this game, and as a professional software developer it makes sense for me to help with the code, right? well, I wouldn't have thought that the ones in charge are so religious about even the s 15:54:23 lightest adjustments. Luckily, as it was indicated before, anyone can make their own fork with black jack and hookers these days, so in the end, free market sorts them out. It just makes me a bit sad that it so often comes to this. 16:34:26 aidanh: ping. I'm not sure if you have github notifications on, I'm trying to get PR 801 ready to merge, the only thing left to do is address the draw order issues your comment mentions. I'm not sure exactly what they are, if you remember or could spot them quickly it'd be appreciated 16:51:04 Hyena: proposed changes need to answer the kinds of "why" questions that several devteam members in this channel have independently raised, your proposal hasn't addressed (or apparently even acknowledged) them; there's not much more to say about it 16:54:58 read the PR desc: 16:54:58 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1012 16:54:58 as you can see many have liked it, so it's a good improvement without question, but of course you can always pretend as if it was not, I got the point, you're sitting on the throne and I'm not, so you get to decide either way :) 16:58:28 the PR description does not address those questions, the (4) likes do not address those questions 16:59:41 has every recent addition to crawl been thoroughly discussed in this manner? 17:00:25 this hasn't been discussed so much as the reasons it's a bad idea explained repeatedly and ignored 17:00:57 discussion certainly happens when the submitter is willing to listen to feedback which is not the case here 17:02:06 i don't disagree, unfortunately 17:06:22 I do think that most gameplay PRs go through a certain amount of iteration/conversation if they're in the neighborhood of mergeable, it's one reason why I rewrote the contribution guide in a (possibly futile) attempt to do a better job setting expectations 17:06:51 that's fine, if it were also the standard you held yourselves to 17:07:08 ... 17:07:35 you're an exception either way 17:10:20 changes we propose go through discussion/iteration all the time, and changes we propose get rejected or possibly later reverted/modified all the time as well 17:10:44 just because crawl may have made bad changes in the past doesn't mean that crawl should make this new bad change 17:11:07 i don't see a single PR from an active developer. are none of the developers working on anything right now? 17:11:29 what kind of statement is that 17:11:43 are you just trying to troll at htis point? it's certainly coming across that way 17:11:52 <|amethyst> developers can create named branches 17:11:57 active developers typically have commit rights so they don't have to make pull requests 17:12:34 i forgot about that, |amethyst. is that where most of the commits go, then? 17:12:46 the point of the comment was to say, do you scrutinize your own changes after you commit them, or something? 17:13:43 because it seems a lot like non-developers have to go through this relatively arduous PR process, while you freely push changes to the repo and the scrutinity happens ? 17:14:32 obviously that's a privilege granted to you as the developers of the project and you have every right to do that, but you do see how this makes an extremely artifical barrier to entry for new developers, no? 17:14:48 yes, non-developer contributions have to go through more scrutiny depending on the type of change, since that is precisely the point of having developers with commit access in the first place 17:15:18 letting non-developers push things to master is not a good idea, switch 17:15:18 i never said it was 17:15:51 i'm saying because the developers don't have to participate in this process, this process has been allowed to suck 17:15:52 and no we do not see how this is an "extremely artifical barrier to entry"; it's how open source projects work 17:15:55 ... speaking as a non-developer who recently sent a PR which has been sent back with "rewrite altogether pls" by ebering... no, it doesn't seem remotely like an extremely artificial barrier to entry 17:16:46 you haven't indicated how this process sucks or even mentioned that it sucks until now 17:16:48 Pinkbeast, okay, speaking as a non-developer that recently sent in a PR that's finished and ignored for months, it does seem like an extremely artificial barrier to entry. 17:17:19 switch__: that PR is in no way finished and you've been told this multiple times 17:17:59 good point, let me check the developer comments on the PR 17:18:21 ...there aren't any 17:18:59 hm I wonder where that feedback could possibly have happened 17:19:23 do you think it might be possible that i would remember all of the relevant feedback better than you might? 17:19:37 and that perhaps i'm not making things up 17:20:00 but this isn't about my PR, this isn't something unique to me 17:23:20 if the active developers had to go through the same PR process every outside contributor has to go through they would quit 17:23:25 plain and simple 17:25:00 so what do you propose 17:25:57 if you don't believe me, try PRing all of your changes. if you do believe me, fix the process 17:26:15 there are over 900 handled pull requests, so spinning a false narrative that merging a PR is "impossible" or w/e won't work, sorry 17:26:32 acting disgruntled isn't going to motivate anyone to work with your or on your PR in particular 17:26:42 s/your/you/ 17:26:45 i never said it was impossible, i said it was artifically difficult. 17:27:26 and you gave no compelling argument as to how that is the case 17:27:40 wb Henzell 17:28:20 you don't think my own example of a finished PR that's been untouched for two months is a compelling argument? 17:28:25 am i really the only one that's brought this issue up? 17:28:52 so what do you propose 17:28:56 no, because it's a complicated aspect of the code where people aren't sure of what the side effects will be 17:29:05 switch__: to be blunt, I honestly have no idea how one could consider that PR finished, I wish you would stop calling it that 17:30:07 like, in the last discussion you said you didn't even understand how it works 17:31:26 I said I didn't fully understand how the game doesn't fully lock instead of partially lock when the clouds are run at delay = 0. The new clouds aren't, and also don't partially lock the game, so this is a non-issue. If you want to comment on my PR, you're more than welcome to do so 17:31:55 and the side effects have been tested 17:32:03 but this is besides the point because it isn't about MY PR 17:32:17 I think in this particular case it is, that is just not an example of the normal contribution process 17:33:13 minqmay, I literally already answered you 17:38:10 you didn't. you're not explaining how the process sucks beyond complaining that your own PR wasn't merged, but it's pretty clear that your PR shouldn't be merged imo. 17:38:21 just so we're clear, the reason given for my why personal example is an invalid case for a slow/shitty/neglected PR process is "this is hard" 17:38:29 so I thought it might be better to ask how you suggest changing the PR system 17:39:39 but it sounds like you don't actually have a suggested change, you're just pointing out that you think it sucks, but clearly nobody has a good picture of *how* you think it sucks, so you need to explain that better 17:39:54 it sucks because nobody uses it, what do you not understand? 17:40:06 PRs are neglected because the developers don't need to make their own 17:41:16 this Hyena guy has been ranting and raving in this chat for a day and a half now and his PR is still open with 0 comments on the github 17:41:59 switch__: It seems quite extraordinary given his charm and modesty! 17:42:06 it was explained immediately, repeatedly, and by multiple people to Hyena that their idea is terrible and that's why the PR won't be merged, though I suppose it should probably be closed 17:42:50 so perhaps this is another example of a failing of the current way PRs are being handled? 17:42:53 PRs are demonstrably not neglected, and the small amount of PRs received probably has more to do with not that many people being interested in coding for crawl than it does with the PR process being impossible 17:43:41 receiving more pull requests isn't necessarily better for your project unless they're actually worth merging 17:44:03 Is your speculation based in something, or are you just guessing? I'm not making this criticism up just from my own experience. I've spoken to other people that have shared the exact same concern, and have similiar experiences. 17:44:13 this is not unique to me 17:44:24 and again, if you do not believe me, PR all of your own changes 17:45:09 ...uh, that's exactly what I've done 17:47:39 part of the reason I jumped into this is that I'm not a developer 17:49:01 i'm struggling to even find your github account 17:50:21 tigerseye:des$ cd ~/crawl/crawl-ref/source/dat/des && find . -type f -print0 |xargs -0 grep minmay |wc 17:50:24 794 1686 47413 17:51:05 Hyena | as you can see many have liked it, so it's a good improvement without question <-- please don't take my like as "i want this change as-is in crawl", and to any dev members sorry if it came across this way 17:51:12 I just try and +1 all new contributor PRs 17:52:10 FYI, a user on cao reported chat harassment. I've taken care of it, but I wanted to let everyone in here know in case it's not an isolated incident 17:52:36 johnstein: yeah, someone was reporting it in discord the other day, probably the same person on CAO 17:52:38 I think there have been a lot of complaints in here over the past day, but almost no recognition of the great work the dev team has been doing to welcome new contributors in over the past couple of release cycles 17:53:39 i see a lot of commits with "minmay" in them but no PRs 17:53:41 the crawl contrib process has become much more accessible over time, as it moved from mantis patches to github PRs and especially the recent focus on clearing the PR backlog 17:54:21 "nobody uses PRs", yet over 900 PRs 17:55:13 and given the record number of PRs merged by advil/ebering/amalloy last release, saying that "it sucks and nobody uses it" is extremely inaccurate 17:55:17 i certainly wouldn't claim that PRs are always handled as quickly as they could be but ebering has done a great job especially at going through them recently, yeah 17:55:26 over 4 years, which admittedly rounds out to like one a day, which is impressive. 17:55:53 and the work ebering in particular has done with making release plans more visible and dealing with PRs from many many different people has been really outstanding and made me feel great as a sometimes contributor 17:55:55 and others too yeah, i definitely noticed them being updated a bunch while i've been pretty inactive 17:56:59 though if we're being honest, a lot of these PRs are really easy/straightforward 17:57:25 switch__: a commit with someone's name in parentheses typically means it fixes a bug reported by them, or was suggested by them, or something similar 17:57:28 switch__: for your PR maybe just add another post summarising what issues (if any) remain and how you've tested it. It sounds like there is a big gap between how complete you think the work is and how everyone else sees it. Maybe if you clarify that it will be easier to review 17:58:02 gammafunk, yea I think so. they let me know the troll was back. I logged into the game and the troll kept trolling right in front of the admin. that made my life easier 17:58:27 johnstein: yeah, I told the reporter at the time to mute them since I know it's tough to effectively block people 17:58:28 alexjurk1, i've already done a massive amount of work and written plenty about it. Thus far there have been no questions, so there doesn't seem to be anything else to write. 17:58:31 but glad you took care of it 17:58:52 yea. they were doing 'whack-a-troll' with the mute button 17:59:33 whack-a-gnoll 17:59:34 oh, right; that's partly why I wanted the mute thing to be ip-based, (with the IP stored on the server db) 17:59:44 even the block isn't great. if they come back I'll have to bug r.a.x or |am for help 17:59:54 that's more complicated though, and we're lucky advil implemented what we have now 18:00:07 advil: o/ 18:00:25 yea. that at least provided some mitigation options until I was able to step in 18:03:40 gammafunk, if you're so sure that nothing is wrong, you're more than welcome to give it a try yourself and PR all of your changes and wait for another developer to approve them 18:04:36 a fox guarding the hen house, what do you even expect? 18:04:48 shut up, you're not helping 18:04:51 I'm really baffled how you think making developers put all of their changes in a PR would in any way prove that PRs are bad 18:05:21 You clearly didn't even have an understanding just how many PRs were handled before you made false claims about people not using PRs 18:05:30 i think it would make you realize that the turnaround time is unacceptably long for trivial changes and indefinite for big changes 18:05:58 No, I think that would not be the case; what would likely happen is that other developers would merge my changes 18:06:02 I looked through the PRs just now and the vast majority of them are single-file changes that are easy to merge/close, but there's no reason to get into this kind of an argument 18:06:10 and you act as if I did not go through this for years before I became a developer myself 18:06:12 doing that is literally the way that most developers became developers in the first place, by demonstrating that they can make well-thought-through changes that match crawl's design goals and be relied upon to fix problems with them 18:06:13 Well, hopefully they would look at them first 18:06:25 you went through this with an entirely different group of people 18:06:31 I never thought to myself "hey, maybe I should make things up and berate people so I can get my changes merged faster" 18:06:32 how many of those people are even here now? one? 18:07:02 sounds like you don't know the answer to that question at all, am I right? 18:07:23 you'd be right, yes 18:07:25 anyhow, suggest you take a break from hounding people on this topic as you're not garning a lot of support 18:07:47 *garnering 18:08:38 and i suggest you take my advice and walk a tenth of a mile in my shoes before you shout down at me. you've been a developer for many years now; i understand it's easy for you to dismiss my criticisms 18:09:27 i dunno man we already messed up hyena's shoes pretty bad 18:09:29 Hang on, is this the C++ cloud generators PR? 18:09:54 right, as I said, I did go through this process already, for quite some time, as I said, and I never decided that berating people or making things up and then admitting ignorance was the way to go 18:15:49 i'm not going to try to decipher this credits list to find out how many people from 6 years ago are actually still here, but my point stands. you've been doing this a long time. i understand that you think everything is fine and it's all good because it's literally yours and it reflects on you. that's fine. i hope you recognize that it's a little different now than it was back then. maybe it's even better now than it was 18:15:49 back then. but my criticism is still valid. and i don't think i berated anyone other than the hyena guy 18:15:53 pinkbeast yeah 18:16:23 switch__: To be frank, then, I can see why that's not going anywhere; I looked at it for my own purposes at the time. 18:16:44 a very substantive comment 18:17:40 Since as you say this is not about this specific PR a more detailed criticism of it from some random bloke on IRC doesn't seem pertinent. 18:18:08 then perhaps you could keep the peanuts to yourself? if you have something substantive, you're welcome to comment on the PR, but I suspect you don't 18:25:13 you really need to tone down your aggressive attitude if you want to keep contributing in this channel 18:25:36 what really boggles my mind is why aren't we getting constructive feedback. seems counter-productive to shut down new initiatives and not even try to suggest an acceptable alternative or a compromise. after all, together we're strong but divided we're weak. with all due respect for the hard work certain people have put into the enhancement of the project over the years, the current path is the path of inbreeding and circlejerking. I 18:25:37 could think of dozens of alternatives that would more-or-less bring about the same feature that my PR aims to create, and I have received zero alternative suggestions. not hard to decode this as another way of saying "go away, you're not welcome here". 18:29:20 well you did get feedback as to how the original idea wasn't directly necessary, as well as feedback that you shouldn't ignore the points developers were making, which you also ignored 18:29:55 and if the change wasn't well recieved in the first place, alternative ways to implement the same thing are hardly going to be well received 18:29:55 i also literally did in fact give examples of better ways to implement the same feature, were it hypothetically to be a feature that we wanted to make work 18:30:26 finally, issuing insults about "inbreeding" and "circle jerking" are definitely not going to help your cause 18:30:36 but your reaction to feedback has been to ignore it and be increasingly hostile, which is certainly behaviour that's not welcome here 18:43:41 it's only an insult if you take it as an insult, and if it insults you personally, then perhaps it touched a nerve and you should think about it in private. as for my cause, there no longer is any, but what has remained is a benign psychological curiosity as this situation is nothing new to my eyes 18:45:12 so tell me MarvinPA what is your proposed better way of achieving the same sort of goal? and I'm honestly asking this not trolling or anything. 18:45:55 there are lots of things in any game that aren't patched out despite being broken, because they are rare. it seems like the thing you fell in love with, ranged chaos weapons, is one of those things. if you actually wanted to make them common, you would need to balance them. 18:46:33 excellent! thank you switch, that's the way to go 18:46:42 which it seems nobody wants to do 18:46:47 Hyena: the feature that your PR aims to create is *bad*. your goal is *bad* and accomplishing that goal would make the game worse. that is why nobody is helping you accomplish that goal 18:46:49 you point out the flaws and you propose a solution 18:46:49 there's your constructive criticism 18:47:06 Hyena: if you continue insulting people, you will be banned from this channel 18:47:18 the solution is to leave chaos knights as they are 18:47:52 we can iterate from there, how do we balance them after adding an option of having better access to ranged chaos weapons 18:48:16 you balance them by making them suck 18:48:26 you don't want balanced chaos weapons 18:48:29 therefore the idea is bad 18:48:33 yes, and what do you know --- I am not at all against that 18:48:51 there's no need to add an option of having better access to ranged chaos weapons. the current level of access to ranged chaos weapons is already good 18:49:18 I say it's not. how do we find a solution that fits for the both of us? 18:49:33 you know there's a reason why some games have easy mode, medium and so on ... think along these lines 18:49:35 we don't, because there isn't such a solution 18:49:51 why shouldn't crawl be able to be configured for the certain needs of certain players? 18:50:09 this feels like a very large topic shift 18:50:12 crawl is an RNG game. it's so RNG that nobody can stop the RNG 18:50:19 and that's an entirely different conversation 18:51:15 for players looking for an easier game, crawl already has explore mode and easier species 18:51:44 you make it sound as if a baby dies if someone was able to play a CK with a ranged weapon :D 18:52:34 I have mentioned a possibility to have regular throwing stones ( without the launcher, just bare handed throwing ) cause chaos effects, is this any better? 18:53:48 how would that work? Would that be a special ability of CK background? 18:54:19 as mentioned before, backgrounds modify the starting equipment/stats of the character, but don't provide permanent modifications 18:54:19 let's say xom would have a tendency to put chaos effect on the throwing stones 80% of the times 18:54:20 is this the return of pies 18:54:52 throwable unrand 18:54:53 given that stones are essentially infinite once you get past the first few floors, that seems very strong 18:55:32 I guess what I want to say is that from a player's perspective, such freedoms make a huge difference, and from the dev's perspective it only makes a difference if we're speaking of competitive gaming such as tournaments. the latter can be dealt with. this whole concept can be modified so that in tournaments people wouldn't be able to abuse it in any way, but people privately playing offline in their homes would have that extra elemen 18:55:33 t of fun 18:56:35 If you're playing offline, it's pretty easy to enable wizmode and give your launcher the chaos brand 18:56:35 if you think about the role-play of Xom, it's not hard to fit something like that into its concept 18:57:23 yes, but wizmode is not the same. my argument is that even with a ranged chaos weapon, CK of Xom is still a fair play, if you disagree show me how you beat it every single time 18:57:27 crawl currently has no options to change the difficulty of the game and this is a deliberate design decision. This could be a nice small "first step" to add difficulty selection, but you would need to justify it by convincing the dev team to add a difficulty slider 18:58:08 rather than just convincing the dev team that this one option should be treated specially, I mean 18:58:09 I see that, and it would feel weird indeed, that's why I'm proposing more sneaky way of having the "difficulty slider" 18:58:44 I figured that since the unarmed option is in most cases dead code to begin with, we could make it a special case as defined in the PR 18:59:18 perhaps instead of "unarmed" there would stand "a scroll of brand weapon", just throwing things out here, to make that option more obvious 18:59:42 and as I said some days earlier, it could then be unofficially called "pussy mode CK" 19:00:34 I just feel sorry for all those unaware regular non-programmer players who don't even know wizmode exists, and who are playing CK for countless hours just like I did and come to an idea "wouldn't it be fun if I had a ranged chaos weapon" but they never get to experience it :( 19:00:40 that is one proposal. Unfortunately the devs are not interested in adding a difficulty slider by stealth, or by adding a special case for unarmed CK 19:00:57 this reminds me a similar PR I made years ago which was rejected 19:01:17 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/113 "curse hands" ability to allow Ash to boost UC 19:02:21 thanks for sharing that :) 19:03:33 from what you are saying, it sounds like the core of your proposal was a desire to have more ranged chaos brands accessible for CK players 19:03:38 is that right? 19:05:14 yes, and when I modified the code and tested it, it felt amazing. it was actually enjoyable and a sense of fairness came to me, knowing that there's this one cool advantage that I have, even though the game was still very hard ( in sense of getting killed at mid game all of sudden, so to say ) 19:07:44 yeah. Chaos brand is cool, it is sad that CK often plays only the first level or two with it equipped 19:08:02 maybe you can look at other ways to make the chaos brand more common 19:08:27 I don't think there's a problem with how common chaos is; there's a problem perhaps with how annoying it is 19:08:39 for instance, changing how frequently xom gifts weapons (or how frequently those weapons are chaos branded). Or how frequently Xom applies a temporary-chaos brand to your equipped weapon (I think this is a xom action) 19:08:41 it's a strong brand but people switch from it because it's exhausting to deal with 19:09:16 it's been my experience with xom that getting a branded weapon under that god is not too hard 19:09:19 yeah. Dealing with the berserk/duplication/invis/shapeshift effects can be really tedious 19:09:33 but I am not very motivated to use it despite it being stronger than my current brand 19:10:04 launcher weapons are extremely strong in this game as is, so you sort of have even less motivation to use ranged chaos from that perspective since you're already very strong when using a launcher 19:11:04 minmay proposed removing the invis effect, which is a minor tweak that could be good, but it still has effects that make most people glad to stop using it 19:11:21 and I'm not sure if there's a way to change that while having the ego remain feeling "xomy" enough 19:11:24 I do have to admit I haven't tested it with greater launchers such as longbows, fustibaluses and arbalests. with a sling the game definitely didn't feel too much easier 19:11:41 but I tried with a hand crossbow, and it was already different, so you might have a point here 19:12:08 speaking of removing annoying invis, SKY BEASTS 19:12:34 playable species? 19:14:12 I'm sort of curious to test out the idea of adding chaos brand to regular stone throwing if playing under Xom. if it is indeed so that greater launchers are OP with a chaos brand, then of course something else needs to be figured out 19:15:07 large rocks may tilt the balance there, not sure. and the greater launchers being OP with chaos brand has to be confirmed by someone who actually tried to finish the game with it, I haven't got into it myself yet 19:16:40 again, from role-play perspective, throwing stones to cause chaos makes perfect sense. the stone throwing is an ancient means to cause confusion by pranksters and tricksters, fits perfectly into the concept of Xom 19:17:24 it's good for there to be randomness available to Xomites 19:17:54 It just gave me a cool idea --- what if it was possible to deliberately throw a stone at a certain tile to make unaware nearby monsters go to that direction "to check out what made that noise" :D 19:17:54 that is a removed feature! 19:18:01 why did it got removed? 19:18:02 it was too powerful in the context of luring monsters to safely fight 1v1 19:18:25 probably could have been balanced out, no need to throw the baby out with the bath water 19:18:30 things like this blow life into the game 19:18:36 and make up great stories to be told 19:18:42 dcss is just not a sandbox game 19:18:53 these lines of thinking would fit in a game like nethack 19:19:12 but truth is indeed that if you start adding little details like these, you'd have to add all of them to appear consistent :D 19:19:17 ---> dwarf fortress 19:19:22 the whole point of DCSS's design is that the best thing you could do to win should be as fun as possible, not as tedious as possible 19:20:03 oh what a wonderful sentence, that's exactly the note I've been playing with my CK PR, fun! 19:20:30 don't laugh, but I haven't even once finished the game, ever 19:20:49 I used to play orc of beogh, and always stoppped playing in mid game because it was so boring and dull 19:20:53 until I discovered CK 19:21:00 yes, so it's likely that you don't have the best sense of the thing you should be doing to win 19:21:18 plausible 19:21:33 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.24-a0-190-g063869c372 (34) 19:21:40 as far as launchers of chaos go in terms of balance, the issue is that those launchers are just really good with any good brand, even just vorpal; chaos is not as good as speed, but it's still really good 19:21:48 but I do know what it felt like to play with a chaos branded sling as a gnoll, it felt fun and I wish you knew what I am talking about 19:22:26 the motivation for this change seems to be partly bases on notions of role-playing and partly based on just making CK stronger early on 19:23:15 correction: making an option for the CK to be stronger early on, this is just an option that you don't have to take 19:23:15 guttsta (L25 VSFi) ASSERT(!invalid_monster(&mons)) in 'mon-death.cc' at line 1842 failed. (Vaults:5) 19:23:15 !crashlog 19:23:16 but CK is a special challenge class right now, so there's not a great desire to change its balance; as far as xom role-playing or "xom dynamics", that's more negatiable since xom is a challenging flavor god 19:23:17 and it comes with an asterisk, it's not necessarily stronger until you actually find a weapon that you brand 19:23:28 20750. guttsta, XL25 VSFi, T:44000 (milestone): https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/guttsta/crash-guttsta-20190317-232302.txt 19:23:53 I slowly start to realize that now yes, the challenge class thing 19:24:04 explains the religious aspects of this conversation rather well 19:24:52 so basically I want there to be an option to be able to play it a little less challenging way, because as a rookie player, I need it 19:27:12 Xom is a god designed to be challenging. It's considered only a small problem that Xom can kill you with instant damage during the early game 19:27:30 03neofelis02 {ebering} 07* 0.24-a0-191-gf5976a5: Highlight summoners when the cursor is over a summon in targeting mode 10(9 months ago, 9 files, 103+ 20-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f5976a5f5fec 19:27:30 03ebering02 07* 0.24-a0-192-g6afd290: Simplify and rename a variable (aidanh) 10(3 hours ago, 9 files, 23+ 43-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6afd290f2fd8 19:27:30 03ebering02 07* 0.24-a0-193-gdbdffe5: Tiles for summoner highlighting 10(3 hours ago, 4 files, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dbdffe56c59d 19:27:48 so it is difficult to match that with changes designed to make the god "easier" 19:28:30 !tell aidanh I poked for a while and couldn't locate any tile-draw-order issues, but I would appreciate your eyes on f5976a5..dbdffe5 19:28:32 ebering: OK, I'll let aidanh know. 19:28:52 maybe you might enjoy other gods that offer similar RNG. Like Oka/Trog gifts, Nemelex card effects, or Gozag potions/shops 19:30:21 nemelex is probably the next closest thing to xom that's actually strong (in fact stronger than most gods) 19:31:25 there has been talk of reworking xom to be an actually beneficial god, but I'm not sure how well that would be recieved; crawl has gods like xom, chei, qaz that make your character weaker upon worship 19:31:34 those will always be challenge gods in that sense 19:32:06 well, thing is if you use chaos weapon, xom becomes actually beneficial, so I wouldn't try to fix Xom, he's good alright 19:32:20 well, no, as I said, this is not actually the case 19:32:21 it's just the weapon sets too strict limitations to your gameplay if it is melee and so basic 19:33:04 if you have chaos brand, you are indeed stronger, but xom does not actually become better than athiest once you get this brand 19:33:04 xom can just kill you or get you killed 19:33:07 s/athiest/atheist/ 19:33:09 no, xom gets amused by chaos effects 19:33:18 that's why ranged makes such a difference 19:33:21 yes, and despite his being amused, he can just kill you 19:33:50 yes, he can, but it makes a noticeable difference 19:34:14 if he's amused, he's not out there to kill you, he may do it, but you don't have to always see him as your enemy 19:34:33 I'm not talking about like "role playing death" 19:34:45 I mean that he can do action in-game that will kill your character 19:35:12 yes, I know, he can revive you too :P but what do you want to say with this, I might have missed your point 19:35:21 eventually if you survive, you can become strong enough where you can overcome anything xom could do to you, but that doesn't change the fact that he's worse than atheist 19:35:45 agreed 19:36:14 so what getting chaos does is make you stronger, mostly since you have a nice brand, and secondarily because you can get relatively more good actions out of xom 19:36:34 about the Xom interest, it's not actually so important either 19:37:24 Once Xom does something while bored, interest is set to a random number between 0 and max interest. So after one (mostly) bad action, xom regains interest as if nothing happened 19:38:24 it would be nice if Xom's interest was something with more applicability to players. But at the moment you can basically ignore it (or if Xom is nearly bored, wait on an empty level until interest is reset) 19:39:11 I have played with and without chaos weapon, and there's a difference huge enough to say that a chaos weapon is mandatory if you intend to enjoy the game 19:40:04 we can't rule out of variance, but it's a story nevertheless. 19:41:21 |amethyst: I've been meaning to ask, could we get dobrazupa back up for at least a while so that we can transfer tournament pages to CDO and possibly also get ttyrecs/logfiles/milestone files/morgues moved to S3? 19:41:35 I'm worried about the absoluteness of statements like "a chaos weapon is mandatory if you intend to enjoy the game". Lots of players play CK without chaos brand and enjoy it, and even more play other backgrounds 19:41:46 I have three wins where I worshiped xom as my only god all game, none of which ascended with a chaos weapon 19:42:18 re: dobrazupa S3, I can provide AWS API key if you want to run this transfer yourself, or just give me SSH credentials and I'll take care of it 19:42:57 ebering: nice, thanks for merging that! 19:42:58 thanks alex, I'll ping you about that when we have access 19:43:18 do you know offhand how feasible it'd be to do the highlighting in reverse? 19:43:49 x-ing a summoner to highlight the summons that is, i guess it might be too visually noisy though 19:45:11 the current behaviour is the more important use case anyway, but maybe i'll have a look into it 19:45:54 hey! open PRs under one page. nice :) 19:46:29 isn't that just https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pulls 19:46:41 oh, you mean the count 19:46:58 that's a false statistic anyhow, since by rights you'd have to count open mantis submissions 19:47:43 mantis more like DEStis 19:50:41 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.24-a0-193-gdbdffe56c5 (34) 19:53:28 You're bloody saints, the lot of you 19:57:04 any way to subscribe to changes of the github wiki? The RSS feed has a post every time a page is edited, but it includes full text of the new version, so tracking the diff is hard 20:06:03 I tried to use a chrome rss reader to watch that too, but wasn't happy with how it worked 20:10:37 ok, I've added the wiki as a remote in my local checkout, so not `git fetch` should let me see diffs 20:13:21 maybe I should try that 20:13:31 real developers use git as their RSS reader 20:39:44 "Pinkbeast> You're bloody saints, the lot of you" qft 21:13:45 03advil02 07* 0.24-a0-194-g9bee6eb: Save seed number in startup prefs on game end 10(7 minutes ago, 3 files, 22+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9bee6ebae348 21:19:22 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.24-a0-194-g9bee6ebae3 (34) 21:45:59 !lg * recent / boring s=species 21:45:59 94086/958844 games for * (recent): 35942/138074x Demonspawn [26.03%], 6751/52471x Gnoll [12.87%], 4894/58408x Gargoyle [8.38%], 4618/33407x Draconian [13.82%], 4185/87294x Minotaur [4.79%], 3157/65698x Octopode [4.81%], 3153/54624x Deep Elf [5.77%], 2512/42462x Hill Orc [5.92%], 2336/33985x Vine Stalker [6.87%], 2116/29104x Human [7.27%], 2095/38971x Formicid [5.38%], 2085/17263x Deep Dwarf [12.08... 21:46:01 !lg * recent / boring s=species o=-% 21:46:05 94086/958844 games for * (recent): 77/2064x Pale Draconian [3.73%], 89/2043x Red Draconian [4.36%], 4185/87294x Minotaur [4.79%], 3157/65698x Octopode [4.81%], 795/15643x Vampire [5.08%], 1060/20097x Tengu [5.27%], 1433/27070x Mummy [5.29%], 2095/38971x Formicid [5.38%], 109/2011x Black Draconian [5.42%], 850/15633x Kobold [5.44%], 112/2013x Purple Draconian [5.56%], 3153/54624x Deep Elf [5.77%], ... 21:46:09 !lg * recent / boring s=species o=% 21:46:13 94086/958844 games for * (recent): 35942/138074x Demonspawn [26.03%], 4618/33407x Draconian [13.82%], 1977/14517x Felid [13.62%], 6751/52471x Gnoll [12.87%], 2085/17263x Deep Dwarf [12.08%], 207/2022x Green Draconian [10.24%], 1981/20993x Naga [9.44%], 1/11x High Elf [9.09%], 4894/58408x Gargoyle [8.38%], 152/2050x White Draconian [7.41%], 2116/29104x Human [7.27%], 1206/16839x Centaur [7.16%], 75... 21:46:33 you can do s=crace if you want to combine the dr 21:47:06 people quitting their high elves, shame 21:48:04 ah right 21:48:12 didn't actually mean to do this searches in channel, sorry 21:48:16 *those 21:52:58 oooh seed stuff? 21:53:37 seed stuff? 21:53:40 there is seed stuff 21:54:22 slowly working towards it functioning online 21:54:41 is there a TL:DR somewhere on it? that was one of the first things I bugged folks in here before I started cbro. trying to wrap my head on how to do it 21:55:05 seemed like one of the biggest issues was how dungeon gen was dependent on the order you explored it 21:57:21 here's a short tldr (I'm about to go though so I can fill you in more later: (i) I made a huge push in 0.23 and since to make seed behavior + dungeon generation much more reliable/stable, (ii) in offline games you can choose to pregenerate the dungeon, which together with a seed is supposed to give anyone the exact same dungeon + monsters + items (getting around order issues), (iii) it's not yet super well suited to online play, though 21:57:21 alexjurk1 has a mode on cpo that uses it 21:57:45 I would say I'm still working on the long tail of seed stability bugs 21:58:05 ah makes sense 21:58:09 ty 21:58:10 gl 21:58:12 also, uv4 is running an offline challenge mode, see here: https://www.reddit.com/r/dcssgotm/comments/ax2vg7/dcss_game_of_the_month_1_announcement_thread/ 21:58:19 using seeding 21:59:14 so it is basically stable enough for that, though the first challenge let me find a ton of bugs 22:00:40 that was one of my original ideas for cbro before it became an official server. I wanted to figure out how to do that and just host challenges 22:00:44 the main challenge right now with activating it online is that pregen is very cpu-intensive so I don't think it'd be great to do it all on game start, but I will probably have something better by 0.24 release 22:01:32 yea. game starts always have a pretty big cpu cost already 22:01:59 well, this is worse 22:01:59 you can run it in offline mode if you want to see, there's a new main menu option 22:02:25 I think alexjurk1's prototype thing is already working ok, so you could see about running it; he was (not sure if it still works like this) generating the dungeon once and copying that to new games 22:03:34 anyways, I'm excited to facilitate these challenge modes, so feel free to ask me for help if you try to set something up, and I may at some point try to build it in a bit more "officially" to the server in some form 22:04:50 I'm actually not sure if I'll do anything with cbro in its current form. it's getting borderline too expensive to keep running in its current incantation, and I'm not comfortable with donations since that will almost make it feel like a 'paid' service that I won't be able to support 22:05:15 but wondering about collaborating with people on setting up something more centralized and scalable. even if it doesn't have central auth 22:05:49 then I could just stop keeping cbro up-to-date and let the load naturally die off over time and lower the amount of horsepower needed to keep it going 22:09:01 MarvinPA: the PR author suggested that it shouldn't be too hard 22:13:18 fwiw, the pregen has not been an issue with CPO weekly challenge because I'm limiting people to one game a week 22:13:32 games with pregen get nice'd too 22:16:18 I can unconditionally fund cbro if that's needed 22:28:26 03Joshua Gelbard02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1013 * 0.24-a0-195-ga2d291a: Add a menu shortcut to select last unequipped item 10(3 days ago, 10 files, 37+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a2d291aa5cf6 22:28:26 03Joshua Gelbard02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1013 * 0.24-a0-196-g3dc6acb: Fix '+' and '-' not being PGDN and PGUP as claimed 10(26 minutes ago, 4 files, 23+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3dc6acbf10f9 23:11:37 -!- collin38 is now known as rofl