00:00:04 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.23-a0-586-gacb4b3f (34)
00:58:51 <alexjurkiewicz> Could a reddit admin add the Tournament flair to this post? https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/a77ltj/dungeon_crawl_secret_santa_2018_signup_thread/
01:05:31 <amalloy> i don't know about new.reddit, but the old.reddit stylesheets have no Tournament flair. is there an existing post that already has the property you want?
01:15:29 <alexjurkiewicz> not sure. I just realised people might think this is a genuine secret santa, and I thought subreddit mods could flair posts
01:15:53 <alexjurkiewicz> here is an example from another subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/AFL/comments/a749b7/afl_player_fell_from_bulte_bridge/
01:32:02 <amalloy> /r/dcss is currently set up with a small fixed set of flairs which users can choose for their posts
01:33:40 <amalloy> "Wear only red/green coloured armour" - you tiles monsters
01:34:32 <amalloy> hm, i'm not sure actually. i thought users could choose their flair but maybe they can't
01:35:04 <amalloy> i don't really understand the reddit flair settings page
02:27:45 <minmay> !tell gammafunk is there a need for more gauntlet vaults? I'm looking at making some with smaller arenas
02:27:46 <Sequell> minmay: OK, I'll let gammafunk know.
03:07:32 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_
05:24:44 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
06:22:13 <alexjurkiewicz> i think there is user flair and thread flair, and i'm after thread flair
12:05:09 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.23-a0-586-gacb4b3f (34)
13:34:43 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
13:46:00 <NP7> In case it's not already known, the CAO scoring pages' links to CJR morgues are currently broken; the links still point to crawl.jorgrun.rocks
15:36:33 <Cheibriados> Weapon tile extends below enemy and leaves traces on tiles after moving 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11794 by NormalPerson7
17:26:14 <alexjurkiewicz> is there a sequell query to see how many turns the average orb run takes?
17:26:19 <alexjurkiewicz> !kw orb
17:26:19 <Sequell> Built-in: orb => verb=orb
17:26:55 <alexjurkiewicz> !lm * recent orb won x=turn lg:turn
17:26:56 <Sequell> No keyword 'lg:turn'
17:26:57 <alexjurkiewicz> ??lg
17:26:57 <Sequell> listgame[1/5]: !lg command displays info about past games. The manual is available here: https://github.com/crawl/sequell/blob/master/docs/listgame.md
17:29:13 <gammafunk> turns are milestone field
17:29:43 <gammafunk> if you're trying to condition on lg:turn, that might work, but you need to specify a condition
17:29:59 <gammafunk> !lm * recent orb won x=turns lg:turns>200000
17:30:07 <gammafunk> that should work, for instance
17:30:51 <gammafunk> if you're trying to get lm to show show the lg turns, don't know that this will work
17:30:57 <gammafunk> !lm * recent orb won x=lg:turns
17:31:06 <Sequell> 104. [2018-12-18 09:10:35] [turn=217033] CatsAreAwesome the Farming Sorcerer (L27 FeCj of Sif Muna) found the Orb of Zot! (Zot:5)
17:32:36 <Sequell> 90s limit exceeded: killed !lm * recent orb won x=lg:turns
17:33:20 <gammafunk> !lm * recent orb won x=lg:turns
17:34:51 <Sequell> 90s limit exceeded: killed !lm * recent orb won x=lg:turns
17:50:24 <switch__> i dunno if there's a way to do that, since it seems like you'd need the data for both the milestone and the game itself
17:50:45 <amalloy> alexjurkiewicz: in principle this would work but Sequell is so ass-slow: !lm * recent orb won x=avg(lg:turns - turns)
17:51:20 <switch__> and right as i say "you can't do that because you need to do <this>", malloy comes in with the solution to my <this>
17:51:39 <amalloy> it works for a specific milestone instead of averaging over lots:
17:51:39 <amalloy> !lm . recent orb won x=${lg:turn - turn}
17:51:42 <Sequell> 1. [2018-01-12 22:17:21] [lg:turn-turn=819] amalloy the Petrodigitator (L27 DECj of Vehumet) found the Orb of Zot! (Zot:5)
17:57:41 <gammafunk> what I wrote is the way to do that, since it reference the milestone field and the cross-referenced field from the logfile
17:58:10 <gammafunk> what amalloy wrote is the same, just doing some different math
17:59:53 <gammafunk> the problem with what alex wrote is that it just wasn't valid syntax; adding a field by itself didn't really make any sense unless you wanted it to mean a condition of "this field is non-empty"
18:00:44 <gammafunk> sequell is slow for milestone queries and cross-referencing the logfile is going to make it slower, so it can easilly timeout depending on how busy it is
18:00:49 <switch__> is there any way to use arithmetic operators inside the summary function? e.g. s=(lg:turns - turns)
18:01:22 <gammafunk> that doesn't make any sense as a summary
18:01:36 <switch__> it would spit out all of the turncounts, wouldn't it?
18:01:40 <|amethyst> !lm . orb won s=${lg:turn - turn}
18:01:41 <Sequell> 6 milestones for |amethyst (orb won): 705, 780, 817, 1039, 1072, 1145
18:01:48 <gammafunk> but summary only works for fields
18:01:49 <switch__> yeah, like that
18:02:18 <gammafunk> right, why would you want to summarize over the differences
18:02:31 <switch__> just to grab the data
18:03:32 <gammafunk> there are definitely better ways to grab a ton of data for that many games
18:04:47 <gammafunk> I wonder what all syntax ${} actually supports
18:04:53 <gammafunk> I don't seem to recall that being documented
18:05:21 <|amethyst> https://github.com/crawl/sequell/blob/master/docs/listgame.md#expressions
18:05:38 <|amethyst> doesn't really say much about the syntax though
18:05:46 <gammafunk> yeah, but: "Function call arguments are always expressions"
18:05:49 <gammafunk> right
18:05:51 <|amethyst> only lists some operators
18:07:34 <gammafunk> I guess that blurb is just mentioning that expression evaluation always happens in function calls...but are function calls only a thing for e.g. x=?
18:08:00 <gammafunk> I guess that's the only place those fuctions really get used
18:08:26 <switch__> is there a better way to shave off the last integer than /10*10?
18:09:53 <switch__> !lm yermak orb won s=${(lg:turn - turn)/100*100}
18:09:53 <Sequell> 552 milestones for yermak (orb won): 167x 600, 123x 700, 106x 500, 68x 800, 35x 900, 17x 400, 9x 1100, 6x 1000, 3x 1200, 2x 1300, 2x 2500, 2x 1800, 2x 2100, 2x 3200, 2x 2200, 18000, 1500, 1700, 3500, 3800, 5600
18:10:01 <switch__> that 18000 though
18:10:07 <|amethyst> switch__:  there's a trunc function:
18:10:25 <|amethyst> !lm yermak orb won s=trunc(lg:turn - turn, 100)
18:10:28 <Sequell> 552 milestones for yermak (orb won): 167x 600, 123x 700, 106x 500, 68x 800, 35x 900, 17x 400, 9x 1100, 6x 1000, 3x 1200, 2x 1300, 2x 2500, 2x 1800, 2x 2100, 2x 3200, 2x 2200, 18000, 1500, 1700, 3500, 3800, 5600
18:11:01 <alexjurkiewicz> !lm . week orb won x=avg(${lg:turn - turn})
18:11:29 <|amethyst> alexjurkiewicz:  btw with avg you don't need the ${..}... see gf's comment about about function calls
18:11:42 <alexjurkiewicz> !lm * week orb won x=avg(lg:turn - turn)
18:11:44 <alexjurkiewicz> oops, thanks
18:11:54 <switch__> !lm * week orb won s=trunc(lg:turn - turn, 100)
18:12:16 <Sequell> 288 milestones for * (week orb won): avg(lg:turn-turn)=794.58
18:12:17 <Sequell> Broken query near '{lg:turn - turn})'
18:12:18 <Sequell> 288 milestones for * (week orb won): 80x 600, 70x 700, 50x 500, 33x 800, 25x 900, 8x 1000, 8x 400, 5x 1100, 2x 1300, 11700, 1200, 1400, 1700, 2000, 2700, 3700
18:12:46 <switch__> !lm * year orb won s=trunc(lg:turn - turn, 100)
18:13:06 <alexjurkiewicz> I think adding o=. would sort in numeric order
18:13:14 <switch__> it's grouped
18:13:23 <|amethyst> !lm * week orb won s=trunc(lg:turn - turn, 100) o=. -graph
18:13:28 <alexjurkiewicz> ^
18:13:35 <switch__> they're already in order, just in order of frequency
18:13:59 <|amethyst> right, o=. sorts them in histogram order
18:14:16 <Sequell> 90s limit exceeded: killed !lm * year orb won s=trunc(lg:turn - turn, 100)
18:14:19 <switch__> lame
18:14:19 <Sequell> 288 milestones for * (week orb won): https://shalott.org/graphs/088e09b5dd423d4342dcf1bb49d2633e565857fd.html
18:14:35 <switch__> this graph sucks
18:14:49 <switch__> !lm * month orb won s=trunc(lg:turn - turn, 100)
18:14:52 <alexjurkiewicz> good sleuthing sequell sniffers!
18:15:10 <|amethyst> blame Mx. 11700
18:15:14 <|amethyst> !lm * week orb won ${lg:turn-turn > 10000}
18:15:23 <|amethyst> !lm * week orb won ${lg:turn-turn}>10000
18:16:11 <Sequell> 1306 milestones for * (month orb won): 409x 600, 295x 700, 212x 500, 168x 800, 86x 900, 44x 1000, 31x 400, 16x 1100, 12x 1200, 7x 1300, 6x 1400, 4x 1700, 3x 1600, 2x 1500, 2x 2000, 2x 2600, 1900, 11700, 5700, 3700, 2800, 2700, 2400
18:16:13 <Sequell> 1. [2018-12-16 15:30:22] GordonOverkill the Axe Maniac (L27 DDFi of Makhleb) found the Orb of Zot! (Zot:5)
18:16:15 <Sequell> 1. [2018-12-16 15:30:22] GordonOverkill the Axe Maniac (L27 DDFi of Makhleb) found the Orb of Zot! (Zot:5)
18:16:26 <switch__> guess there's your answer
18:16:35 <switch__> average turncount is between 500 and 700
18:17:03 <|amethyst> ?
18:17:42 <|amethyst> alexjurkiewicz got 794.58 for the week, not excluding that outlier
18:18:01 <switch__> well, this whole topic came up because alex was wondering the average turncount for an orb run. 409+295+212= 916/1306 were between 500 and 800
18:18:46 <switch__> with around 1/3 being between 600 and 700
18:18:56 <|amethyst> !lm * week orb won x=median(lg:turn-turn)
18:18:59 <Sequell> 287 milestones for * (week orb won): median(lg:turn-turn)=704
18:19:05 <|amethyst> !lm * week orb won x=std(lg:turn-turn)
18:19:07 <Sequell> 287 milestones for * (week orb won): std(lg:turn-turn)=709.17
18:19:38 <|amethyst> !lm * week orb won x=fit_distribution(lg:turn-turn)
18:19:40 <Sequell> Unknown function: fit_distribution
18:19:44 <|amethyst> aww
18:19:45 <alexjurkiewicz> 709 standard deviation?
18:19:52 <switch__> lul
18:19:56 <|amethyst> yeah, mostly because of that outlier
18:20:10 <|amethyst> !lm * week orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<10000 x=std(lg:turn-turn)
18:20:26 <alexjurkiewicz> weirdly close to the average
18:20:26 <Sequell> 286 milestones for * (week orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<10000): std(lg:turn-turn)=287.16
18:20:26 <|amethyst> !lm * week orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<10000 x=avg(lg:turn-turn)
18:20:28 <Sequell> 286 milestones for * (week orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<10000): avg(lg:turn-turn)=757.03
18:20:48 <switch__> can step those queries up to month
18:21:03 <switch__> 300 is a pretty small sample size
18:21:16 <|amethyst> FR: elliptic shows up to tell us how that's obviously a gamma distribution, and then proves it
18:21:19 <alexjurkiewicz> seems to give a pretty normal distribution based on the above graphs
18:21:49 <|amethyst> !lm * week orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<10000 s=trunc(lg:turn - turn, 100) o=. -graph
18:21:51 <Sequell> 286 milestones for * (week orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<10000): https://shalott.org/graphs/2fa82ad760649a056ddb05af0d2f08412852b875.html
18:21:59 <|amethyst> !lm * month orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<10000 s=trunc(lg:turn - turn, 100) o=. -graph
18:22:01 <Sequell> 1304 milestones for * (month orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<10000): https://shalott.org/graphs/e2b5994b3508f2c99cd41f5bd24d4ac0eeafd4b0.html
18:28:51 <alexjurkiewicz> looks like this was a slightly extreme week
18:29:10 <switch__> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/901 this seems like a strange close
18:29:27 <gammafunk> it can't be normal with asymmetry like that
18:29:37 <switch__> perhaps it could be moved into an issue instead, but i don't see why this was closed if the official developer response to the PR is "this should be considered carefully"
18:38:37 <switch__> also https://shalott.org/graphs/e361e4feacb459d5bf85468f8d8b4da9a673ec22.html
18:38:53 <switch__> (180d graph)
18:41:14 <switch__> how would you go about extracting information about this graph, though?
18:41:32 <switch__> e.g. what is the distribution of races for all orb runs under 500 turns?
18:41:47 <switch__> since you can't have multiple summary functions in a single query
18:42:02 <alexjurkiewicz> you could run the query once per species
18:42:10 <switch__> yuck
18:43:08 <|amethyst> !lm * week orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<500 s=char
18:43:10 <Sequell> 8 milestones for * (week orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<500): DEWz, FeAr, GnEn, HaAM, HOFE, HuCj, HuMo, MiFE
18:43:21 <|amethyst> !lm * month orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<500 s=race
18:43:23 <Sequell> 31 milestones for * (month orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<500): 7x Deep Elf, 4x Minotaur, 3x Halfling, 2x Human, 2x Gnoll, 2x Demigod, 2x Felid, 2x Ghoul, Barachi, Centaur, Demonspawn, Formicid, Hill Orc, Mummy, Naga
18:43:52 <|amethyst> !lm * month orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<500 s=tiles,src
18:43:53 <Sequell> 31 milestones for * (month orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<500): 29x true (8x cao, 6x cbro, 5x cue, 4x cwz, 3x cko, 3x cxc), 2x false (cao, cbro)
18:46:09 <|amethyst> !lm * month orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<500 s=regexp_replace(name,'(.).*','\1'),name
18:46:11 <Sequell> 31 milestones for * (month orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<500): 5x A (4x AsparasYuuki, Anno), 4x s (2x SpeedVeins, samspot, SnubMonkey), 3x p (pmoppi, ParticlePhysics, Petrovich), 2x b (blorx1, Bacchus), 2x E (2x EthnicCake), 2x f (fourfacedrat, Faldahar), 2x g (gameguard, geewiz), 2x m (magipi, minmay), 2x t (theanonym, TheTwistedOwl), 2x X (Xenophilius, Xqipyl), h (happinesssam), K (Kalere), n (nightch...
18:46:59 <switch__> !lm * orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<500 s=race start>${(now()-180d)-interval('180d')}
18:46:59 <Sequell> ERROR:  time zone displacement out of range: "${(now()-180d)-interval('180d')}"
18:47:08 <switch__> !lm * orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<500 s=race start>${now()-interval('180d')}
18:47:16 <Sequell> 161 milestones for * (orb won ${lg:turn-turn}<500 start>${now()-interval('180d')}): 24x Deep Elf, 20x Minotaur, 9x Demonspawn, 8x Gargoyle, 8x Spriggan, 8x Gnoll, 7x Halfling, 6x Demigod, 6x Barachi, 6x Merfolk, 6x Centaur, 6x Felid, 5x Octopode, 5x Human, 5x Deep Dwarf, 4x Vine Stalker, 4x Ghoul, 4x Hill Orc, 4x Mummy, 3x Green Draconian, 3x Troll, 2x Grey Draconian, 2x Naga, 2x Kobold, Vampire, ...
18:47:31 <switch__> gotcha, deep elves and new players really wanted to leave
18:48:34 <|amethyst> I don't know if it's specifically new players
18:49:00 <|amethyst> so much as minotaur having more wins
18:52:04 <|amethyst> hm, though not twice as many wins as Gr or Ds, so I guess Mi does have some specific speediness
18:52:39 <alexjurkiewicz> perhaps DE is so fast because DE players run from more threats than other species
18:52:58 <|amethyst> alexjurkiewicz:  and/or nuke them from halfway across the screen :)
18:53:36 <alexjurkiewicz> !lg * month s=regexp_replace(name,'(.).*','\1')
18:53:39 <Sequell> 120263 games for * (month): 5966x s, 5674x S, 5078x b, 4216x P, 4106x p, 4025x T, 3912x m, 3767x M, 3565x t, 3499x d, 3496x A, 3351x k, 3213x G, 3190x a, 3125x r, 3118x D, 2987x c, 2935x C, 2746x L, 2529x g, 2525x R, 2332x l, 2327x e, 2321x n, 2287x j, 2164x h, 2121x f, 2109x N, 2032x K, 1940x H, 1903x B, 1802x F, 1776x W, 1719x O, 1632x w, 1472x E, 1426x J, 1413x i, 1236x x, 1064x o, 997x y, 979x...
18:53:49 <alexjurkiewicz> ??lg
18:53:50 <Sequell> listgame[1/5]: !lg command displays info about past games. The manual is available here: https://github.com/crawl/sequell/blob/master/docs/listgame.md
18:54:03 <alexjurkiewicz> too bad there is no lower()
18:55:54 <|amethyst> which seems like it would be easy to do, since you'd ujust pass it through to postgres
18:56:00 <|amethyst> s/uj/j/
19:04:40 <gammafunk> well you can just use a format
19:05:05 <gammafunk> although if you want the data combined for case it can't help you there
19:05:38 <gammafunk> but I'm not really sure what we're trying look at game-design wise with sequell data
19:06:49 <gammafunk> sequell data is great about showing choices the player made, not very good for showing what choices they should have made
19:08:01 <gammafunk> s/for case/ignoring case/
20:00:08 <alexjurkiewicz> i think there are major game balance implications for this query
20:00:49 <alexjurkiewicz> did you realise so many players were snakes?
20:01:35 <amalloy> more spiders than snakes really
20:02:08 <gammafunk> the actual query you started with, not the joke query
20:02:28 <amalloy> tbh i'm more puzzled as to why sS and Pp are next to each other but b is miles away from B
20:02:46 <gammafunk> just wasn't clear to me what you were looking for
20:04:00 <gammafunk> so long as I don't see a pull request "Balancing the orb run by species, part 1. As you can see from the following data..."
20:04:55 <alexjurkiewicz> man of all the ways I'd like to balance species I assure you I will not start with the orb run
20:05:07 <alexjurkiewicz> was thinking about weird orb run kris kringles
20:06:11 <gammafunk> oh
20:06:48 <gammafunk> orb run turn minimization is probably a little tricky to make a conduct out of
20:07:21 <gammafunk> although since you're not tracking online you can get pretty weird
20:07:41 <gammafunk> I don't think turncount would be as fun as doing things that end up increasing their turncount on the orbrun indirectly
20:07:48 <gammafunk> like making them visit weird places and such
20:08:17 <gammafunk> orbruntomb is obviously a bit much but maybe an easier detour
20:09:23 <alexjurkiewicz> i was thinking about 'win the game in less than n turns after picking up your first rune'
20:09:57 <gammafunk> oh, yeah, but why not just make it simpler and say "win in less than n turns" I guess
20:09:58 <alexjurkiewicz> which would involve some very unusual prep
20:11:11 <amalloy> would it though? you'd just do the S branches but leave the rune, then do V or M and leave the rune, then dive zot
20:11:14 <amalloy> well, not V i guess
20:12:09 <alexjurkiewicz> clear S branches, clear Z, go find the abyss rune, sprint back to the S runes, sprint to the orb, orbrun
20:12:47 <gammafunk> you forgot that Z requires 3 runes to enter
20:13:03 <gammafunk> unless you meant clear U
20:17:04 <alexjurkiewicz> oh yeah. interesting
20:21:12 <amalloy> you could force them to dive zot by tying it to when they pick up the third rune
20:22:35 <amalloy> !lm alexjurkiewicz rune nrune=3 won x=${lg:turn - turn} min=${lg:turn - turn}
20:22:38 <Sequell> 27. [2017-07-14 06:52:48] [lg:turn-turn=2115] chequers the Impregnable (L25 DDFi of Makhleb) found an abyssal rune of Zot on turn 42946. (Abyss:4)
20:24:35 <alexjurkiewicz> !log . ddfi won
20:24:36 <Sequell> 1. chequers, XL26 DDFi, T:45061: https://crawl.project357.org/morgue/chequers/morgue-chequers-20170714-070157.txt
20:25:03 <alexjurkiewicz> looks like I did dive that time
20:26:32 <alexjurkiewicz> !lm * week rune nrune=3 won s=trunc(lg:turn - turn, 100)
20:26:33 <Sequell> 289 milestones for * (week rune nrune=3 won): 5x 10000, 4x 13200, 3x 14900, 3x 11900, 3x 17800, 3x 13300, 3x 13000, 3x 13500, 3x 22600, 3x 21300, 3x 8900, 3x 11300, 3x 12700, 3x 23100, 2x 18500, 2x 39600, 2x 14300, 2x 14400, 2x 14500, 2x 20000, 2x 40200, 2x 20400, 2x 10900, 2x 22900, 2x 11500, 2x 17900, 2x 5400, 2x 12500, 2x 12600, 2x 28800, 2x 34100, 2x 37800, 2x 32100, 2x 13900, 2x 48100, 2x 141...
20:31:34 <amalloy> or if you want them to dive zot and don't care how many runes they get, just tie it to entering zot:
20:31:34 <amalloy> !lm . br.enter=zot won x=${lg:turn - turn} min=${lg:turn - turn}
20:31:37 <Sequell> 66. [2015-10-31 05:37:48] [lg:turn-turn=923] amalloy the Wrestler (L26 TrEn of Okawaru) entered the Realm of Zot on turn 69724. (Depths:5)
20:35:57 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
20:54:26 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
21:20:13 <minmay> could runed doors be made transparent? I have a runed door vault where space is so tight that there's no room for transparent walls
21:26:27 <gammafunk> it might be a nice change to do that, but there are a lot of vaults to look through and probably a bunch to modify or even remove
21:27:59 <gammafunk> and I don't know if any other devs have reservations about that modification
21:28:42 <minmay> the monty hall vault uses regular doors so it wouldn't be affected, I'm not really seeing what other vault could rely on runed doors being opaque?
21:29:14 <gammafunk> door_vault doesn't make a whole lot of sense with transparent runed doors
21:29:22 <gammafunk> since the whole gimmick is that it's a shock when you open the door
21:29:39 <gammafunk> I'd have to modify evilmike_wizard_prison somehow as well
21:30:16 <gammafunk> there maybe be others but of course it's unfortunately hard to search for runed doors
21:30:27 <gammafunk> hrm, I wonder if you could rig some kind of objstat search
21:31:29 <gammafunk> 1000 iterations might might find literally all of them but it probably wouldn't leave out too many
21:32:32 <gammafunk> might be a good thing to add to the main objstat listing for the feature tabulation, just a list of all vaults placing the given thing
21:32:42 <gammafunk> since some things are a bit tough to search for in the des
21:33:18 <minmay> oh, right, triggers
21:34:23 <minmay> I'm surprised there isn't a door opened trigger
21:34:43 <minmay> oh wait, feat_change should work fine
21:35:33 <minmay> the silent spectre comes into view when you open the door right now, so you could change it to a feat_change on the runed door and it would work the same, no?
21:35:44 <gammafunk> not exactly, the spectre would teleport out when it woke up
21:35:51 <gammafunk> and the prison walls wouldn't lower
21:36:01 <gammafunk> it'd wake up since the door is transparent
21:36:04 <gammafunk> er
21:36:09 <minmay> it already does that if you know to make noise before opening the door :P
21:36:14 <gammafunk> actually I guess currently it's actually los based
21:36:19 <minmay> yeah
21:36:31 <gammafunk> well it's not easy to make noise under silence
21:36:44 <minmay> that's the joke yes
21:36:55 <minmay> I wonder if xom can wake it up somehow
21:37:01 <gammafunk> kind of hard to tell that was a joke :p
21:37:39 <gammafunk> anyhow I'd like to rework the vault maybe but it'd going to be hard to make it not break autoexplore, I guess; the runed door sort of prevents that now
21:37:55 <gammafunk> at least I assume you can autoexplore under silence
21:38:18 <gammafunk> I suppose since it's such a spoiler vault, that's sort of fine
21:38:35 <gammafunk> but yeah I think door_vault (and all its variants)...those don't seem like they'd remain in the game
21:39:20 <gammafunk> not that they're amazing vaults, but they're sort of exactly the thing you're targeting for removal for a change like this
21:39:49 <gammafunk> obviously something like current wizard prison as well, but at least that one is some interesting concept or theme
21:40:19 <minmay> autoexplore already stops in wizard prison because of the curse skulls
21:40:56 <minmay> and then again on the runed door before you would see anything behind it, though of course that won't help someone mashing 'o' repeatedly
21:45:32 <minmay> I won't comment on the design of wizard prison but for most of doorvault's life, any character with detect creatures (which was like all of them) would know what was inside, it functioning as a trap for all unspoiled players (instead of just a few of them) is a new thing
21:46:16 <gammafunk> well, there's like a "surprise! it's butterflies" variant
21:47:03 <gammafunk> so at least that variant would be removed
21:47:19 <gammafunk> the main one is probably fine
21:47:39 <gammafunk> since it's still...oh, that weird trigger thing it has to make the doors non-contiguous
21:48:31 <gammafunk> I guess that's supposed to make it less bad when you reveal the monsters, or something
21:48:36 <floraline> surprise! it's butterflies
21:58:57 <alexjurkiewicz> if runed doors became see through, could monsters wake up if you were insight of them
21:59:45 <alexjurkiewicz> maybe there should be a transparent runed door tile
22:01:54 <gammafunk> yeah, they'd have to be transparent in the usual sense for walls
22:02:51 <gammafunk> since we'd not want to break reciprocal los for just one feature
22:14:18 <minmay> gammafunk: the non-contiguous door lua crap is just there to preserve its original form somewhat, I think
22:14:39 <minmay> it was originally made entirely of single-square doors since secret gates weren't a thing
22:14:44 <minmay> and uh well secret gates aren't a thing now either
22:15:30 <minmay> another option is to have transparent (runed) doors in addition to the opaque ones, so door vault and wizard prison and whatever can stay unchanged
22:15:45 <gammafunk> true
22:16:00 <minmay> there are quite a lot of vaults with opaque doors in the middle of a bunch of translucent walls, those vaults would appreciate that
22:16:12 <gammafunk> yes, that's another thing I was thinking about
22:16:24 <gammafunk> a lot of vaults that would work fine but probably should have their terrain modified
22:16:47 <gammafunk> the opaque runed door could be kind of a stopgap thing then, I guess
22:17:44 <gammafunk> well, I guess we'd not make the opaque version the default, so it wouldn't mean much
22:18:11 <minmay> presumably translucent (runed) doors would just be on different glyphs
22:19:21 <gammafunk> not sure, couldn't we just make them be lightcyan +
22:20:04 <minmay> I meant in vault syntax
22:20:31 <gammafunk> oh, sure; or just not make a default glyph for them and require a kfeat, like iron grates
22:21:44 <minmay> ugh, those still require a kfeat don't they
22:22:18 <gammafunk> well, I guess we have a glyph freed up with the trap change
22:22:31 <gammafunk> random unrevealed trap on ~ I think?
22:23:00 <minmay> i'm pretty sure the only vault that uses ^ without KFEAT or SUBSTing it away is hall_of_zot
22:23:23 <minmay> could also reclaim whatever the hell was walls were on, but wasn't that something weird like 'a'
22:23:29 <minmay> wax walls*
22:24:31 <gammafunk> one tricky thing about that is some vaults might use a and rely on it defaulting to floor (since it's undefined)
22:24:54 <gammafunk> I use 'a' a bunch in my vaults, not 100% sure I subst/kfeat them all
22:25:12 <minmay> right, that's why I went after ^ first
22:25:46 <minmay> ^ and ~ are enough for the two new features that translucent doors would be
22:26:43 <gammafunk> oh, you want to add non-runed ones?
22:26:58 <gammafunk> non-runed transparent doors, I mean
22:27:11 <gammafunk> oh right you have to
22:27:44 <minmay> otherwise closing a runed door turns it opaque, yeah
22:27:52 <gammafunk> well, you have to add those features, but you don't nec. have to add a default glyph for non-runed transparent doors
22:28:17 <gammafunk> but yeah might as well, I guess
22:28:19 <minmay> the idea is those vaults with opaque non-runed doors in the middle of transparent walls would probably like to have transparent non-runed doors instead
22:30:10 <alexjurkiewicz> what's the flavour? just runed door? you see here a runed porticullis
22:30:21 <minmay> lack of a dedicated glyph discourages people from using the feature, I think - imagine how much fewer vaults would have statues and fountains if they weren't among the first things in syntax.txt
22:30:52 <minmay> it's "rock wall" and "transparent rock wall" so I think "door" and "transparent door" would be fine
22:31:20 <minmay> portcullis is more flavourful in some applications but not others (in particular the one where the door is surrounded by transparent walls)
22:32:49 <minmay> only loosely related: did Elf ever stop randomly turning doors lightcyan
22:33:33 <gammafunk> was that for geoelf? infiniplex wanted to add transparent doors for that layout
22:33:44 <gammafunk> and may have had his layout recolor them
22:37:42 <minmay> yeah it would often generate lines of transparent walls with lightcyan doors in the middle of them
22:50:00 <gammafunk> glad we can maybe help realize his decorate dreams by adding transparent doors finally
22:50:10 <gammafunk> perhaps this makes up for us not merging his Tar layout
22:50:22 <gammafunk> that had walls gradually decay into miasma cloud generators
22:51:06 <gammafunk> s/decorate/decorative/
23:07:59 <minmay> i have some dreams that i would like to realize too
23:11:01 <gammafunk> if those get submited as vaults they just might get moved to the trash forum
23:24:00 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_