00:01:01 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.23-a0-307-gc3b755d (34) 00:18:33 03psywombats02 {ebering} 07* 0.23-a0-308-gf318fe8: A variety of new arrival vaults (psywombats) 10(4 months ago, 3 files, 317+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f318fe8c0c44 00:18:54 where in level gen code does it place the up and down stairs? 00:20:38 _fixup_stone_stairs 01:10:39 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.23-a0-308-gf318fe8c0c (34) 01:27:02 The build passed. (master - f318fe8 #10392 : psywombats): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/439462892 01:36:39 -!- ebering_ is now known as ebering 01:47:46 FR: after the timer has expired portals still hold on, but only until you leave the floor? This way weak characters can get to them too and there is still no problem with returning when you get strong. 01:48:33 Also there should be a warning saying if you leave the floor, you will lose access to the portal. 02:40:13 Yermak: about golden anvil, I'll be trying it in hellcrawl first https://github.com/Hellmonk/hellcrawl/pull/63 02:48:08 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.23-a0-308-gf318fe8 08:56:35 !crashlog stormannn 08:56:35 1. stormannn, XL14 MfFi, T:16777 (milestone): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/stormannn/crash-stormannn-20181010-011542.txt 08:56:51 0 bytes 08:56:54 wonder what's up with that 09:43:57 03advil02 07* 0.23-a0-309-ge7838e6: Improve gozag distraction flavor vs. mechanics 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 11+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e7838e6b1fe6 10:10:51 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.23-a0-309-ge7838e6b1f (34) 10:23:37 -!- ebering_ is now known as ebering 11:13:16 johnstein: Looks like cbro games aren't starting 11:13:27 both webtiles and console fail to launch all versions 11:13:29 ^status 11:13:30 6 Crawlers. CBRO disk usage=100% (135GB) | RAM usage=42% (4GB)| uptime/CPU= 11:13:29 up 61 days, 8:54, 1 user, load average: 4.07, 4.12, 4.04 (4 Cores) http://status.berotato.org 11:13:32 oh 11:13:35 johnstein: disk is full 11:20:48 ^status 11:20:49 10 Crawlers. CBRO disk usage=96% (135GB) | RAM usage=33% (4GB)| uptime/CPU= 11:20:48 up 61 days, 9:02, 2 users, load average: 4.92, 4.37, 4.16 (4 Cores) http://status.berotato.org 11:21:30 I’ll have to move ttyrecs and force update 0.20 and 0.21 soon 11:25:06 oh that's probably why that crashlog was 0 bytes 11:25:13 also it probably explains the crash 13:06:51 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.23-a0-309-ge7838e6 (34) 13:07:15 kernmantle (L27 OpWn) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (D:11) 13:09:05 !crashlog 13:09:07 ^status 13:09:07 36 Crawlers. CBRO disk usage=95% (135GB) | RAM usage=50% (4GB)| uptime/CPU= 13:09:07 up 61 days, 10:50, 2 users, load average: 5.84, 6.09, 6.20 (4 Cores) http://status.berotato.org 13:09:13 20074. kernmantle, XL27 OpWn, T:130380 (milestone): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/kernmantle/crash-kernmantle-20181010-170714.txt 14:43:03 hm that's libstdc++ internal 17:19:31 thanks for the 0.21.2 release! :) 17:20:05 i'm the one who pressured you to do it. 17:20:42 lobbying seems to work! ;) 17:25:56 Since this is an open source project, where are those "73 other bugfixes and cleanups" listed? :) 17:26:35 The people have right to know! 17:26:47 visitor: in the commit log 17:26:57 Commit log? 17:27:04 Why not in the change log? 17:27:23 And where's that damn commit log anyway?!?!?! 17:27:56 visitor: your demanding tone isn't appreciated 17:29:02 And I don't appreciate some fuzzy concept of "xxx changes but we won't talk about it further". 17:29:29 visitor: the project has a public facing git repository where every incremental diff is available along with commentary on it, and a public bug tracker 17:29:47 all of this is documented in the docs/develop documentation distributed as a part of the source package 17:30:36 Yeah right. Sometimes open source isn't that open. :) 17:30:57 visitor: I'm not going to engage with you further 17:33:10 Aww then. 17:35:51 I could say some bad things now but better to leave. 17:38:08 Maybe I even say? 17:38:20 Fuck #metoo !!! 17:38:43 Climate change? My ass. Now to hell. 17:39:17 well then 17:40:36 glad to know that person was even worse than they seemed the first time 18:00:40 first time I've heard that git isn't open enough 18:02:33 alexjurkiewicz: btw that big vault pr from waayyy back, that's still pretty much ok to merge as well? 18:02:44 the one where I and I think amalloy reviewed it 18:03:01 funnily enough I was going through making new screenshots of everything. But yes, it should be good to merge as-is 18:03:09 ok 18:04:13 my honeycomb bee ghost vault is so important that it will change the roguelike genre as we know it, so I have to finish that first, but then I can start merging a couple of those PRs 18:04:25 not sure if any devs saw this btw: https://github.com/Hellmonk/hellcrawl/pull/63 I don't think it's quite usable as-is with vanilla because a) it would need to be timed like portals and b) would require a lot of balance work to incrementally replace ew/ea/bw. But interested in design feedback 18:04:47 design feedback = both gameplay design and code review 18:09:54 I can't really see an upside to this; seems to be mostly duplicating enchant weapon/brand weapon 18:11:02 not really related to this too directly, but speaking of dungeon features 18:11:44 advil and I were toying with the idea of maybe having some kind of feature that would be a one-time use thing to do something with mutations 18:12:16 the tricky part is that potions of mutations do a pretty good job of "mutation roulette" right now and we don't want those to be really more common necessarilly, due to balance reasons 18:13:05 some games players get very frustrated by a lack of potions and get get stuck with bad ones; there might be room for something quite limited that can offer some interesting tradeoff 18:13:12 but the specifics are the troublesome part 18:13:52 it would probably have to offer something like a mutation potion or perhaps just the cure mutation effect (possibly even only affecting bad mutations and leaving good ones) 18:13:59 but offer some signficiant tradeoff in return 18:14:08 and it would probably need to be a quite uncommon feature 18:14:50 hard to be specific without full details but you might see 0-2 per game or something roughly like that 18:14:57 just depends on what the tradeoff would be I guess 18:15:55 I think the only thing it would absolutely have to do is cure a number of mutations (maybe just what mutation potions do in that regard) 18:16:12 but it could also offer positive mutations potentially 18:16:54 and we were thinking this might be a dungeon feature, however that's mostly only because it started as this idea of "purple stairs" where you hatch into a new level to get this 18:16:59 but this really don't work so hot for crawl 18:17:37 probably it could just offer a tradeoff that modified your character in another way, although I suppose you could try putting the player somewhere bad in theory 18:18:05 ah like hellcrawl stairs 18:18:42 well I think hellmonk suggested this idea for the stairs when advil brought up the notion of having a feature for mild mutation shenanigens 18:18:50 and it works for hellcrawl better than it does for dcss 18:18:54 I like the "push your luck" aspect that dungeon features can offer 18:19:09 sure, and it being a dungeon feature means you don't have to carry it around 18:19:24 but it doesn't precisely have to do anything very dungeony like move the player somewhere 18:19:48 about mutation, I'm not sure if it's an issue now, but players can't easily return to "no mutations" 18:20:09 that was completely intentional when Brannock first made those changes 18:20:26 and in general it's very difficult to get away from the level of "what one potion of mutation gives" 18:20:34 you can return to that state by worshiping zin, of course, but yeah he wanted the mutation system to work like that 18:20:40 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-309-ge7838e6b1f (34) 18:20:49 well, the way you can differentiate this is by offering a tradeoff 18:21:08 and by not giving precisely the same effect, but some kind of tradeoff is really all you need here 18:21:21 mutation potions offer no tradeoff 18:21:29 this feature wouldn't be bad if it just did what a mutation potion does 18:21:31 maybe certain mutations could be exclusive to fountains 18:21:37 but offered a tradeoff that was good 18:21:50 well again, I think that's not the main focus here 18:22:11 the issue is probably first and foremost reducing bad mutations I think 18:23:00 i don't think one specific to the source are the best way to differentiate the effect; you can have this thing remove bad ones and only add good ones to give one example 18:24:09 but the reason why I'm more interested in it, is that it's possibly a way a player could remove some bad mutations 18:24:30 it is tricky though, since most games do have a reasonable number of mutation potions 18:25:08 it could be a thing guaranteed to show up only once, in one place or something like that 18:26:03 what I'm sort of getting that is that the strategy for using this should be somewhat interesting, so finding a good tradeoff for using it is probably the most important thing 18:26:19 sure you can cure a bad mutation or three, but will you be able to live with what it does do you 18:27:02 or if it additionaly gives good mutations and you *really* want some of those, will you be able to live with what it does to you 18:27:28 I suppose to keep brannocks idea it might need to cure bad ones and add only good ones 18:27:35 so that you stay net-mutated 18:28:15 something aking to taken a Ru sacrifice to get that I guess 18:28:19 *taking 18:29:07 if it tries to transport you to a bad place instead of modifying your character in some way, it can be difficult to make this balanced 18:30:12 yeah 18:30:19 it ultra-shafts you to zot:27 18:30:21 I mean, the traditional crawl answer here is "heavy drain" 18:30:46 well, you can be a little more creative 18:30:51 could this be some kind of Ru thing? 18:30:55 but if it's "remove bad mutations for x fixed cost" you're also sort of copying Jiyva. Sort of, since Jiyva won't let you only remove mutations 18:30:56 you get some Ru sacrifice 18:31:20 well jiyva's cost for that is "you have to find and worship jiyva", which is very specific 18:31:40 as far as the cost if you do worship jiyva, it's not very much 18:32:04 but that's not really a problem here, this is not going to feel like you're worshiping jiyva too much 18:32:11 yeah 18:32:24 it could even be a jiyva themed feature in some way, but I don't know what cost it would have 18:32:45 there's a lot of directions one could go but it doesn't have to be incredibly complicated 18:34:08 where to place it? I was going to say Depths but Depths feels super busy already 18:34:47 (depths could be made less busy by removing some of the "duplicate" abyss/hell/pan gates) 18:35:19 probably anywhere relatively lateish is ok 18:35:42 zot is quite empty, although that's partially by design I suppose 18:35:42 elf:3 vault, crypt:3 I guess, Depths, I suppose even zot 18:35:59 but I think most important thing is to fully define what it does 18:37:06 the location where it can generate does impact how you use it to some degree 18:37:21 probably some other devs have ideas about that (and possibly criticism of the idea in the first place) 18:37:38 but for my part I'm most interested in how it's use and how it affects strategy 18:37:44 *used 18:38:03 how it might affect balance of mutations (mostly not making it too strong or too common) 18:38:34 this is sort of advil's initial idea and he might have a preference 18:38:48 and maybe MarvinPA can just tell us it's a bad idea altogether :) 18:39:30 elliptic might also be happy to do that 18:39:42 when I was thinking through this a few versions ago I always ended up at the most boring solution, which is just a potion that adds 1 (or some number of) random mutations 18:39:44 but I am in agreement with him that we shouldn't make good mutations very free 18:40:17 yeah, that feels so close to the current potion, although its a bit different 18:40:37 I wasn't too big a fan of the backtracking aspect of anything involving features 18:40:41 yep, it is very similar 18:40:46 to me it seems that curing mutations is probably a good thing to target, since this is precisely what's so frustrating to players who have 0 recourse 18:40:51 which then led me towards no change 18:40:55 I was thinking about alternate ways to time portals after Yermak mentioned the "countdown until you can't level the level". One idea was to start a short (~30 turn) timer when the portal comes into view. But this could get abusable where you spot the vaults with magic mapping, or even just seeing an identifiable corner, and then exploring so you don't trigger the timer until everything else is cleared 18:41:04 yes, that is a problem; although it has a positive side, which is not carrying a new type of item! 18:41:06 though I do think it would be nice to add *some* kind of random mutation mechanic 18:41:12 maybe it could add a permanent ability until you use it 18:41:27 but that's sort of weird I guess 18:42:09 that's an interesting way of goldifying consumables. Pretty low tech as well which is good 18:42:36 advil: I think you and I are also concerned about different things; you wanted to address rolling new mutations, and I sort of wanted to address what happens if you have no mutation curing available at all 18:42:52 oh, yeah, that may be 18:42:54 s/rolling new mutation/playing mutation roulette/ 18:43:20 for curing I have been wondering about trying to smooth out the distribution a bit 18:43:44 how so? 18:43:48 no specific ideas 18:44:40 maybe just slightly increase the probability of current mut potions? 18:44:51 I think the low end is a bit too low 18:44:55 vaguely occurred to me to have some mutations just be always temporary but that's maybe weird and too hard a nerf to those mutations probably, given how quickly they get removed by xp 18:44:57 would not be surprised if others disagree :) 18:45:09 hah, yeah 18:45:15 another thing about that 18:45:22 neil mentioned how we could guarantee some mut pots 18:45:25 in specific places 18:45:32 -!- ProzacElf_ is now known as ProzacElf 18:45:34 this would at least prevent games with 0 of said potions 18:45:39 in the connected dungeon at least 18:45:45 yeah, that might be good, hard to do in a non-spoilery way 18:45:55 right 18:46:01 we do have something like elf:2 HoB though 18:46:06 it would accomplish my goals 18:46:09 which is basically same idea 18:46:27 well not quite the same idea, but it is very spoilery way to find weapons 18:46:41 heh, have a mini cigotuvi somewhere in lair or whatever? 18:46:52 hive returns... 18:46:58 indeed 18:47:05 (tbh I always liked hive in the old days) 18:47:48 hrm 18:48:04 a hall of mutations vault 18:48:18 always on...maybe this would be good in zot 18:48:38 it seems a lot of complaints come from dealing with zot:5 18:48:44 yeah, if it's going to involve mutators as well, lair is probably too early 18:49:02 for something guaranteed 18:49:23 other than zot, thematically only elf comes to mind, but that already has HoB 18:49:45 I guess you could have a special vault in depths 18:49:55 but maybe somewhat earlier is a bit more interesting 18:51:37 alexjurkiewicz: yeah, for time-based portals I think upon level generation is probably the only reasonable thing 18:52:04 perhaps you could have an xl-based timer, but that brings its own issues, one of which is communicating it, and it's thematically awkward 18:54:55 I almost think that simply not having portals be timed is the best fix 18:55:11 but that does have issues too 19:01:28 +gammafunk | neil mentioned how we could guarantee some mut pots <-- is there a system that guarantees a certain amount of rations currently? Could that be repurposed 19:02:17 also, add an early temp-malmutating monster to lair. Weird Sheep :) 19:21:11 I think there's just a food vault set of vaults, there's not strict guarantee afaik 19:51:01 interesting forum idea: sac love closes all shops 19:52:02 how is that interesting? sac love is a pretty strong sacrifice as it is 19:54:02 maybe as its own sacrifice I guess, but it seems like it'd have to be worth too much piety 19:54:16 you can always run it by Lasty and see what he thinks, though 19:54:22 speaking of which 19:54:24 !seen Lasty 19:54:25 I last saw Lasty at Fri Aug 24 02:14:12 2018 UTC (6w 5d 21h 40m 12s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Leaving.'. 19:54:28 hrm 20:10:02 -!- doy_ is now known as doy 21:24:04 -!- Tiobot is now known as Guest44712 21:43:49 -!- Tiobot is now known as Guest47027 21:50:28 gammafunk: I pushed a few tweaks for my DES pr. Nothing major, just improving aesthetics 21:51:02 ok, hopefully I can finally actually really merge this tomorrow 21:53:30 03alexjurkiewicz02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/569 * 0.23-a0-305-g82536ac: Add new vaults and a serial 10(1 year, 2 months ago, 3 files, 354+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/82536ac4f52c 23:25:22 Paterick (L24 MiFi) Crash caused by signal #15: Terminated (Desolation) 23:27:16 Paterick (L24 MiFi) Crash caused by signal #15: Terminated (Desolation) 23:28:21 !crashlog 23:28:41 20076. Paterick, XL24 MiFi, T:52544 (milestone): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Paterick/crash-Paterick-20181011-032714.txt 23:32:58 Paterick (L24 MiFi) Crash caused by signal #15: Terminated (Desolation) 23:36:08 advil: they used step from time in desolation 23:36:15 which paterick reports froze the game 23:36:19 so he refreshed 23:36:28 ah, yeah there's a lot of fog code going on there 23:36:54 didn't pf have a partially implemented c++ fog machine? 23:37:12 he did have a branch, not sure if it had much progress 23:40:41 ran into problems iirc 23:59:55 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.23-a0-309-ge7838e6 (34)