00:00:00 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.22-a0-51-g1bb26a1 (34) 01:31:46 -!- mikee___ is now known as mikee_ 03:11:51 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.22-a0-51-g1bb26a1 (34) 03:55:51 -!- aditya1 is now known as aditya 04:05:30 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 04:08:41 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 05:12:28 -!- Snuva is now known as surr 05:18:15 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 08:47:34 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.22-a0-52-g299d06e: Allow manually cancelling Formicid digging 10(36 minutes ago, 2 files, 6+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/299d06e3d266 08:47:34 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.22-a0-53-ge097ebc: Don't require the rest command to make barbs expire 10(24 minutes ago, 3 files, 10+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e097ebc5883c 08:47:34 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.22-a0-54-g0a53ea1: Don't place air elemental bands with spriggan air mages 10(20 minutes ago, 2 files, 0+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0a53ea1f8c0f 08:47:34 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.22-a0-55-g3eaed18: Clean up some comment spacing 10(19 minutes ago, 2 files, 8+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3eaed1801d5d 09:09:43 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.22-a0-55-g3eaed1801d (34) 09:53:05 03Aidan Holm02 07* 0.22-a0-56-g25970fc: Fix floor features getting a black tile in ?/F 10(30 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/25970fcdebed 09:53:27 03Aidan Holm02 07* 0.22-a0-57-g8ce38db: Don't show removed spells in ?/s menu (rchandra, #11287) 10(4 weeks ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8ce38db43364 09:53:27 03Aidan Holm02 07* 0.22-a0-58-g03c2c45: Add consistent background to monster spell tiles 10(4 weeks ago, 2 files, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/03c2c451930d 09:53:27 03Aidan Holm02 07* 0.22-a0-59-gb6df83e: Add generic monster spell tile 10(4 weeks ago, 3 files, 111+ 143-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b6df83e18164 09:53:27 03Aidan Holm02 07* 0.22-a0-60-g6b3d46c: Remove redundant spell tiles 10(4 weeks ago, 2 files, 62+ 124-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6b3d46cdb42f 10:00:32 ??wiki 10:00:32 wiki[1/3]: The development wiki (which is open to non-developers!) is located at https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=DCSS:start 10:00:33 ??wiki[2 10:00:33 wiki[2/3]: Wiki for players: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/. Incorrect or out of date, request an account and get to updating! Unfortunately you're not allowed to correct bad advice. 10:01:36 hm. the pages really are blank (I'm probably late to that reality) 10:01:54 I think it's in the process of being restored? We're not sure what's happening to it 10:03:28 it's obviously a dev plot to make the game harder during tournaments 10:03:43 at least that's what I read somewhere. must be true! 10:04:28 according to conventional wisdom we should have made the wiki *more* accessible in order to do make the game harder 10:04:43 in other news, playing wjc now for the first time and, it's quite different and somewhat more stressful for me so far 10:04:50 heh 10:05:13 urgh, ?/i ration shows the info for "book of conjurations" 10:05:16 I think I like wjc but I've had several really close calls and I'm out of potions 10:05:28 lookup-help.cc is just a mess 10:09:12 messy crawlcode?! 10:09:45 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.22-a0-60-g6b3d46cdb4 (34) 10:09:59 unthinkable, I know 10:35:57 MarvinPA: If I made those air elementals better about not casting that spell if they would harm allies, would that be enough? 10:36:08 Part of the motivation of improving their damage was so that they'd be relevant in the few places they were used 10:36:52 otherwise they seemed like something that should maybe just be qaz-only and not hostile monsters 10:37:15 earth elementals are probably in a somewhat similar situation but they had that one notable use through elementalists 10:41:15 ?/I search for "ration" shows "book of conjurations" 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11350 by aidanholm 10:41:16 No matches. 10:42:44 didn't know you could do sequell searches via mantis; that's handy 10:43:03 haha 10:43:05 or give them rwind like sojobo maybe 10:43:30 wheals: well, that's not a great solution; they'll damage all sorts of hostiles with those clouds 10:43:48 it's one thing if they do so after hostiles somehow become adjacent after they've cast 10:44:05 but if it properly sensed that none were in range before casting 10:44:14 ah true 10:44:19 that would probably alleviate most of the damaging of hostiles 10:45:16 <|amethyst> or tornado could be selective in damage 10:45:55 I thought about that, but I think that's sort of a bad precedent, isn't it? 10:46:00 having clouds just be selective 10:46:50 tornado clouds are already pretty weird clouds, if you look at how they do damage 10:48:15 <|amethyst> a better precedent IMO than "don't give these spells to monsters, since they'll hurt their friends" 10:48:22 <|amethyst> player versions can still be non-selective 10:49:11 yeah, it's not that we technically couldn't do it, I'm just concerned about clouds working differently for monsters than they do for players 10:49:44 right now you know that a monster stepping into a cloud is susceptible to it unless they resist the cloud 10:49:52 *fully resist 10:50:03 so this would be a cloud type where that's no longer true 10:50:34 but yeah, that would be an easy solution to implement, certainly 10:50:47 and would probably let us just remove rWind 10:51:08 03Aidan Holm02 07[ui-overhaul] * 0.22-a0-99-g39f6792: Reimplement formatted scroller 10(11 days ago, 25 files, 818+ 856-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/39f6792b1042 10:51:08 03Aidan Holm02 07[ui-overhaul] * 0.22-a0-100-g2367b3d: Force webtiles CRT popup to 80-char width 10(6 days ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2367b3d2cfdf 10:51:08 03Aidan Holm02 07[ui-overhaul] * 0.22-a0-101-g314c5b8: Add UI widget min/max sizes 10(5 days ago, 4 files, 26+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/314c5b8d87ff 10:51:08 03Aidan Holm02 07[ui-overhaul] * 0.22-a0-102-g881a524: Use improved spell description UI for ?/S 10(5 days ago, 3 files, 52+ 52-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/881a5249503c 10:51:08 03Aidan Holm02 07[ui-overhaul] * 0.22-a0-103-g9f2641c: Don't use d as a spell letter 10(3 days ago, 3 files, 48+ 50-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9f2641cc6373 10:51:08 03Aidan Holm02 07[ui-overhaul] * 0.22-a0-104-g802b267: Add { -> i alias in item description UI 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/802b26705122 10:51:08 03Aidan Holm02 07[ui-overhaul] * 0.22-a0-105-g3a02627: Remove unused show_quote argument 10(2 days ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3a02627d47d2 10:51:08 03Aidan Holm02 07[ui-overhaul] * 0.22-a0-106-gdec4595: Don't include title twice in show_description() UI 10(2 days ago, 2 files, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dec4595cbbc7 10:51:08 03Aidan Holm02 07[ui-overhaul] * 0.22-a0-107-g7b36e69: Use new item description UI for ?/I 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 9+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7b36e6965989 10:51:08 03Aidan Holm02 07[ui-overhaul] * 0.22-a0-108-g57d15f9: Use ability description UI for ?/A 10(2 days ago, 4 files, 19+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/57d15f925384 10:51:08 ... and 5 more commits 10:52:11 they don't have to appear in depths anyhow, it's fine if they're basically elf-only, and I can do that range check fix regardless 10:52:22 I realise everyone's busy with the tournament, but if anyone has time, feedback on that UI stuff would be greatly appreciated 10:52:38 how many commits in that PR right now? 10:52:43 like a billion 10:52:50 FeelsBadMan 10:53:21 66 to be precise 10:55:36 although it's really a bunch of my old PRs chained together, since they built upon each other 10:56:02 hopefully I can at least build it at some point in the next week 10:57:04 that'd be great 11:00:24 after tournament i wanted to work on book goldifying, specifically fixing up the old doesnty PR; i'm not sure how much that would conflict with the branch, though at the very least you could remove 9f2641c in that case 11:02:09 gammafunk: i guess having them be smarter about casting tornado could work, although i would tend towards saying maybe it doesn't work well as a monster spell even if it's smarter about it (similar to stuff like shatter's problems with indiscriminately harming allies) 11:03:33 yeah it's a trickier spell to make work for sure 11:04:55 wheals: which PR is that? this branch is mostly changing menus (specifically formatted_scrollers) and descriptions, but doesn't tangle too much with anything else 11:06:02 never mind, found it 11:06:23 yeah it likely won't be a problem 11:06:30 since this doesn't really add a new menu 11:06:33 just changes how the M menu works 11:06:58 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/670 * 0.22-a0-57-gbc2b92a: Show Serpent of Hell flavour in ?/M list 10(3 weeks ago, 1 file, 13+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bc2b92a66f50 11:06:58 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/670 * 0.22-a0-58-g1b9c128: Make Serpent of Hell name wrangling slightly less brittle 10(3 weeks ago, 3 files, 35+ 26-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1b9c128142d6 11:30:00 -!- Snuva is now known as surr 11:34:22 New branch created: goldify-books (13 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/goldify-books 11:34:22 03Doesnt02 {Aidan Holm} 07[goldify-books] * 0.22-a0-57-gda8b894: Implement spell library 10(10 months ago, 8 files, 71+ 46-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/da8b8941c1ba 11:34:22 03Doesnt02 {Aidan Holm} 07[goldify-books] * 0.22-a0-58-gabe35f5: Mark books with no new spells as useless 10(10 months ago, 3 files, 22+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/abe35f5cc872 11:34:22 03Doesnt02 {Aidan Holm} 07[goldify-books] * 0.22-a0-59-g8e6b8ec: Remove Trog's Burn Spellbooks ability. 10(10 months ago, 10 files, 7+ 25-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8e6b8eca25db 11:34:22 03Doesnt02 {Aidan Holm} 07[goldify-books] * 0.22-a0-60-gfda3dff: Remove stray book burning reference 10(10 months ago, 1 file, 0+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fda3dff944d8 11:34:22 03Doesnt02 {Aidan Holm} 07[goldify-books] * 0.22-a0-61-gc15ba5b: Remove book burning from the tutorial 10(10 months ago, 2 files, 28+ 37-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c15ba5baa797 11:34:22 03Doesnt02 {Aidan Holm} 07[goldify-books] * 0.22-a0-62-ga26cf76: Adjust messages 10(10 months ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a26cf76409d6 11:34:22 03Doesnt02 {Aidan Holm} 07[goldify-books] * 0.22-a0-63-g26d58d6: Mark books with only unlearnable spells as useless 10(10 months ago, 2 files, 4+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/26d58d6404cf 11:34:22 03Doesnt02 {Aidan Holm} 07[goldify-books] * 0.22-a0-64-g75d0cc3: Replace failed book acquirements with manual acquirements 10(10 months ago, 1 file, 15+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/75d0cc3989cc 11:34:22 03Doesnt02 {Aidan Holm} 07[goldify-books] * 0.22-a0-65-g01012ab: un-remove accidentally removed newline 10(10 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/01012ab79b13 11:34:22 03Doesnt02 {Aidan Holm} 07[goldify-books] * 0.22-a0-66-g2ea387e: Don't prevent Xom from gifting useless spellbooks 10(10 months ago, 1 file, 12+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2ea387e7c842 11:34:22 ... and 3 more commits 11:36:46 wheals: yep, no conflicts; I've pushed it to a branch since I rebased it to test it out 11:45:55 thanks 11:46:29 i was thinking of un-removing Burn Books from that 11:46:50 granted it might lead to some level of luring, but given that you can only do it once per item, it doesn't seem excessive 11:47:27 it doesn't seem worse than shallow water being a thing 11:50:41 for what it's worth, when the burn books ability was added nobody had thought that people would pick them up and throw them :-) 11:51:55 I actually kind of like the idea of items being usable in multiple interesting ways like that 11:52:21 but I think it'd only really work if it were very well designed, so that each item has many possible uses in a wider variety of scenarios 11:54:33 actually... what if worshipping trog just made books auto-burn whenever they come into LOS? 11:55:07 that was in the PR at first, but the problem found with was that there are vaults where it's clear there's going to be a book soon 11:55:45 so if you're planning to switch to another god, you'd want to do weird things to make sure you don't see it 11:55:58 it would also nerf switching away from trog a lot in general, though that's not necessarily a dealbreaker 11:57:26 that's almost like problem and solution all rolled in one 12:03:06 if people are going to switch away despite it being sub-optimal, then incentivizing weird behaviour around vaults is less of a concern than it would be otherwise 12:18:44 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.22-a0-60-g6b3d46c (34) 12:31:29 any objections if I add altar tiles to the god UI? local tiles only obviously 12:41:21 aidanh: book burning as a conduct would only work if it was something like on sight and also all still-existing books are burned on abandonment, which i'm not sure is an actually interesting conduct 12:43:41 MarvinPA: why wwould still-existing books also need to be burnt? 12:44:06 because of the thing wheals mentioned, where otherwise you can do silly things like excluding vaults where you know books exist 12:47:52 is that really that much of an issue though? I understand how it's potentially rewarding tedium, but abandoning trog already incurs a bunch of repurcussions 12:49:25 i mean surely that's the thing, there's already a working and good penalty for abandoning trog 12:49:43 it doesn't need to also have some messy bad interactions with spellbooks 12:50:35 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 12:50:38 ah; I meant book auto burning on sight while worshipping trog, not after abandonment 12:51:07 right, but the burning on abandonment is a requirement if you want burning on sight to exist 12:51:19 otherwise those messy bad interactions become a thing 12:51:28 ah, got it 12:51:30 thanks 13:06:55 gammafunk, advil: i'm thinking of adding UV4's recent "guide" (https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/7oqt4h/a_guide_to_dungeon_crawl_stone_soup/) on the /r/dcss sidebar, since it seems to be getting upvoted to high heaven. any reason i shouldn't? 13:08:25 I looked over it and didn't see anything really problematic; mostly we want to avoid linking something that's just hugely negative (about the game or the dev team etc) or full of really bad info, which I'm sure it's not 13:08:35 but I'm not sure about a policy for linking things in general 13:09:17 crawl doesn't have many written guides that I've seen that aren't just wiki pages, so it's nice to have one if it's reasonable 13:10:04 i read through the beginning of it and it seemed decent, but it was way too long for me to have an opinion about the whole thing 13:10:28 it's not too different from linking to videos, but we do already link to UV4's channel 13:10:47 clearly the sidebar needs a dedicated UV4 section 13:10:48 and his channel does have a link to the guide 13:10:56 or I assume it has a link to his website 13:12:45 The build passed. (goldify-books - 859e9d5 #9173 : Doesnt): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/326890452 13:15:56 it seems pretty decent to me, I've skimmed through the whole thing but not read it in detail 13:17:02 it didn't seem to obviously hit any of the usual guide pitfalls, and the screencap-based examples are good 13:17:09 makes me kind of nostalgic for being a new player 13:17:19 it even has a beem section 13:19:26 it doesn't properly glorify beem 13:19:32 beem should have its own guide 13:19:34 with delux art 13:19:47 and a foreward by Linley Henzell 13:20:04 heh, foreward. warding you away from it ahead of time 13:20:23 I would actually like a foreward by greensnark 13:20:23 oh, what's the word 13:20:23 foreword 13:20:25 foreword, right 13:20:31 it should be very literary 13:20:51 "Beem: a novel" 13:21:08 imo it should be written by Sequell on behalf of linley, in honor of beem writing on behalf of Sequell 13:21:16 ?/beem 13:21:17 Matching terms (2): !help:!beem, beem; entries (8): !help:!beem[1] | beem[1] | beem[2] | beem[3] | beem[4] | Cerebot[1] | goodcode[1] | lomlobot[2] 13:21:28 r??beem 13:21:28 beem[3/6]: Source https://github.com/gammafunk/beem ; (very simple) webtiles python library: https://github.com/gammafunk/webtiles 13:21:32 there's your foreword 13:24:20 I think he doesn't actually link to the beem commands guide, which he should, since that's a little sequell/bots primer 13:24:29 I should expand that and just do a good sequell tutorial 13:24:32 with all the common commands 13:25:11 good sort of project if you feel like writing something that's not code 13:26:11 ^status 13:26:11 61 Crawlers. CBRO disk usage=91% (135GB) | RAM usage=51% (4GB)| uptime/CPU= 13:26:11 up 2 days, 18:02, 7 users, load average: 1.43, 1.10, 1.07 (4 Cores) http://status.berotato.org 13:26:50 !calc 135 * 0.09 13:26:50 gammafunk: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 13:26:51 12.15 13:26:56 only 12 gigs left! 13:27:04 wonder what's up with the cpu graph 13:27:50 oh maybe that's just the reboot 13:30:31 well, i added it to the sidebar. so there 13:31:42 I'll replace it with a link to amalloy's talk when amalloy isn't looking 13:31:52 title it "the only guide to crawl you'll ever need" 13:32:38 It's Fine If Players Die, So Long As They Have Fun And Feel Like They Deserve It 13:33:09 just replace the entire philosophy section with that statement 14:00:23 -!- Bobson is now known as Bobsson 15:21:04 hey, did we add default force-mores for timed-portal messages? that's a nice improvement 15:50:38 is there a reason we have separate monspeak entries for Dowan_Duvessa_dies_bytwin and Duvessa_Dowan_dies_bytwin, instead of just having one refer to the other? at the moment, they are exactly the same except for the unintentional(?) difference that when duvessa kills dowan she may shout "NO! What have I done?", but the reverse never happens 16:06:41 that sounds like the correct use case for a monspeak redirect, it's probably just an oversight that there isn't one 16:14:11 03amalloy02 07* 0.22-a0-61-gbf6022e: Make Duvessa and Dowan react the same to killing each other 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bf6022e02760 16:54:18 ??advil todo 16:54:18 advil todo[1/1]: eliminate or change bad fogs 16:54:40 pretty comprehensive todo 16:55:01 or maybe that means you're just good at finishing your todo 16:55:09 this is apparently not where I put the stuff I actually do 16:55:18 !learn add advil_todo redo airstrike damage based on minmay's monte carlo table 16:55:19 advil todo[2/2]: redo airstrike damage based on minmay's monte carlo table 16:56:21 or maybe the opposite of based on that, but inspired by it at least 16:59:02 the never-ending saga of airstrike damage simplification 16:59:14 has it been simplified before? 16:59:48 oh yeah, hellmonk ranted about that for a long time before it got fixed 17:00:08 %git a0cb861226 17:00:08 07Lasty02 * 0.21-a0-85-ga0cb861: Simplify Airstrike damage formula (Hellmonk) 10(7 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a0cb86122693 17:00:38 oh, that's after the spell guide I guess 17:01:08 oh, he might be referencing said hellmonk tavern post, yeah 17:01:14 not aware it was simplified 17:01:17 or maybe just making a joke 17:01:21 so maybe that's one off your todo! 17:01:24 !learn del advil_todo[2 17:01:25 Deleted advil todo[2/2]: redo airstrike damage based on minmay's monte carlo table 17:01:27 done! 17:01:40 I think he just hasn't updated that guide for 0.21 17:03:14 amalloy_todo is a desolate, barren place 17:03:37 The build has errored. (master - bf6022e #9174 : Alan Malloy): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/326993239 17:09:51 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.22-a0-61-gbf6022e027 (34) 17:10:27 ??amalloy_todo 17:10:28 amalloy todo[1/11]: check out summon forest's behavior when it wears off while you're off-level 17:14:25 11 entries?! 17:18:20 ??stones 17:18:20 stone[1/1]: (throwing; 2 dam / 1.1 base delay / 0.7 min delay). A small chunk of dense but otherwise unremarkable natural material. It can be thrown or launched with a sling. 17:18:40 how can I 3-shot a naga with stones 17:19:18 boots of the assassin, obviously 17:23:08 gammafunk: I've got a pitch for you for some new amulets that could fill some of our removed slots (and also gourmand :p ). 17:23:11 nice 17:23:29 tbh we are quite due for some more lasty amulet drama 17:23:43 Yeah, absolutely. I'll try to make them as insufferable as possible. 17:23:46 I'm thinking there's interesting territory in amulets that add things to basic actions. Something like "adds EV during move actions" or "adds AC after wait actions" 17:24:48 I wonder if there's also room for transformation of exploration to reward fighting near the darkness -- +hp/mp after exploring a tile, or +defenses or +slaying after exploring a tile. 17:27:09 To turn that into concrete proposals, I'd suggest: acrobat's amulet - +10 EV during move actions. chameleon's amulet - no-contam invis during wait actions. 17:27:31 Thoughts? 17:29:30 so flat EV bonus, just while you move 17:29:33 yeah 17:29:50 hrm, some practical issues would include the UI being pretty flickery 17:30:06 and maybe confusing, but I guess the explanation of the amulet makes it clear enough what's happening 17:30:17 I guess you don't actually display the EV do you 17:30:23 you just have...a message? 17:30:45 I was thinking you'd highlight the higher EV in blue after move actions. 17:31:07 Having a message on every move action sounds awful 17:31:07 yeah, but the value will be increasing and decreasing a lot 17:31:11 I don't think the flickering would be too bad if it just updated the EV in the hud 17:31:20 I suppose that's true 17:31:33 no worse than the noise meter at least 17:31:35 yeah, you mean the EV: NN display? 17:31:38 yeah 17:31:41 (which, granted, some people do complain about) 17:31:42 that's the only place were we could even show it 17:31:44 definitely no status light 17:32:07 yeah, I guess it's not the end of the world there 17:32:13 My experience is that updates to the defenses HUD aren't too intrusive 17:32:19 tho mileage may vary 17:32:31 right, this is just a relatively extreme case for a numerical display 17:32:37 since it's going to bump up and down every turn 17:32:45 and it's true we have noise, but we also do that as a bar 17:32:50 gammafunk: only if you toggle between moving and other actions 17:32:53 but yeah I don't think it's a show-stopper or anything 17:33:00 right, but this will happen frequently 17:33:02 if you continuously move it'll stay up, if you continuously don't move it'll stay down 17:33:08 I'm not talking about the best case, but the worst case 17:33:13 fair 17:33:22 but yeah I think you're right it probably won't be too horrible 17:33:54 wjc whirlwind is maybe in the same design space? 17:33:59 I like to think in terms of what this will be equivalent to, yeah 17:34:05 yeah 17:34:15 wjc is so new that I wouldn't try for that one :) 17:34:40 it's not really like swift or anything 17:34:49 does the player actually want this 17:35:13 because 1v1 combat from a good position is the default for a nice fight setup 17:35:21 10 EV while escaping / repositioning / unexpectedly walking into danger is nice 17:35:23 so your EV amulet is not so useful there 17:35:30 but yes, it does nothing while tabbing 17:35:36 does it have a cooldown? 17:35:40 IMO no 17:35:41 or anti-swap of some kind 17:35:44 oh, anti-swap 17:35:48 I was thinking attune like regen 17:35:51 oh, sorry, yeah that's what I meant 17:36:09 I found that the wjc thing encouraged me to reposition which was interesting, but I don't have a sense for when doing that with whirlwind is actually good or optimal 17:36:26 well whirlwind is a far more complicated thing since you get a bunch of stuff for that 17:36:31 yes 17:36:34 pinning, multi-hitting 17:36:46 my intuition is that this ammy would compete poorly with refelction, say 17:36:48 yeah, whirlwind is also a special attack, so you might want to use it even when not repositioning 17:37:02 but ofc 10 ev is pretty good; it just seems like it might have a hard time being good 17:37:08 reflect gives you SH always, for instance 17:37:30 yeah, +6 reflection would be more or less always a better bet than +10 on movement 17:37:48 so you're comparing say 5 sh (and the reflect gimmick which can be conditionally good) during an entire fight 17:38:04 to 10 ev in specific portions that may not be too relevant 17:38:27 most repositions happen before monsters are even adjacent, or at least before the nastiest ones are 17:38:38 The EV could be buffed to compete, but the specific point that this does nothing during active fighting still stands 17:38:59 yeah 17:38:59 it'd be nice for approaching ranged monsters or disengaging from scary thing 17:38:59 s 17:39:34 yes, but it wouldn't live in a vacuum, since other amulets exist that are also good then 17:39:44 it doesn't have to be the best amulet, of course 17:40:03 like regen isn't a very good amulet either 17:40:23 but it is popular 17:40:33 yeah, but I sort of wonder if players will take to it much since it's this escapey type amulet without much 'bang' 17:40:44 and it stops working most of the time 17:40:48 There's some amount of EV where this amulet is pretty good. I'd be inclined to wear it over most things if it was +100 EV, for example. 17:41:09 heh, yeah you can the char unhittable in situations and that would obviously be awesome 17:41:35 It's possible +10 is insufficient to be exciting, but maybe +12 or +!5 is. 17:41:41 er 15 17:42:20 I think your basic premise of "do stuff while we move" is cool, not sure if EV is the way to go, but it could be a good amulet 17:42:35 *do stuff only while we move 17:42:58 I guess it does feel a bit like wu jian stuff, but it's not to the degree where I'd be worried 17:43:28 It does, but IMO that's not a bad thing -- Wu Jian opened up some good design space, and I think there's room to poke around in there more. 17:43:37 trog gives regen and we have a regen spell and we have a regen amulet, which maybe is not a sterling example of overlap, but those things are more similar to each other than +EV amulet and wu 17:43:45 yeah 17:44:24 I say not sterling because regen amulet is not my favorite amulet design, mostly cuz it's not too strong and people think it's stronger than it is 17:44:33 Not to mention Makhleb's overlap with summon demon spells 17:44:39 or Yred and Animate Dead 17:45:05 I never liked how yred just gave you god-based animate dead! but probably it's not too reasonable to hate that 17:45:28 IMO regen amulet is approximately as strong as a +3 reflection ammy 17:45:38 maybe +2 17:45:50 but it _feels_ better than any reflect ammy 17:45:53 yeah, but people are like, well I could wear faith but I have this regen amulet 17:46:06 gotta go with that extra regen... 17:46:15 can we condition your new amulets on you doing derived undead reform? 17:46:20 can this be a barter system 17:46:51 you mentioned the other amulet 17:46:57 no-contam invis during wait actions 17:47:57 this might play very oddly due to how monster tracking works 17:47:58 gammafunk: lol 17:48:23 yeah, on further thought the invis-on-wait is probably kinda bad. You might get people doing walk-walk-wait-wait-wait sort of stuff 17:48:31 which might be really stupid 17:48:35 the second amulet is finally the breadswinging nerf we've been waiting for 17:48:37 monsters don't lose their tracking that quickly...and yeah it could end up being kind crazy strong 17:48:46 So, tell me about derived undead reform. I already did a small pass on that with the timeouts... 17:49:12 oh, I was joking, but maybe making it so there's not one type of derived undead for every monster 17:49:33 oh, haha 17:49:33 yeah 17:49:33 and other vague and fancy things 17:49:35 I approve of that and probably won't do anything about it any time soon 17:49:49 where you're the designer and I don't even know what I want but you finish it and I play it and it's exactly what I always wanted 17:50:05 haha 17:50:28 That's the only kind of design I ever do. I mean, remember when you realized that caustic shrikes were the life partner you never had? 17:50:50 sorry, as far as lasty monsters go 17:50:55 I never stopped loving entropy weavers 17:51:20 I wouldn't have guessed that. 17:51:40 their current version is pretty good 17:51:46 But if I'm going to do a big reform, it's gonna be ranged reform. It's my white whale. 17:51:57 important to have the one project like that 17:52:36 feel free to sketch out any idea on the github wiki if you feel that's useful 17:52:55 I will probably finish up the current plan doc notes and make a new starter one for 0.22 at some point before tournament ends 17:52:58 I think I've had a pretty complete vision for it for some time now, I just haven't had the time to actually implement it. 17:53:05 I thought it was already on the notes, but I can check 17:53:21 will it incorporate any of elliptic's observations? 17:53:28 about making ranged not feel like reach+++ 17:53:46 I don't know that I heard his observations. Were they about my plan, or about ranged in general? 17:53:56 he wanted to make it have some kind of mallus as a tradeoff to that range, he was musing about corrosion like effects, but that probably wouldn't be the best 17:54:11 let's see if this still exists -- 17:54:15 ??ranged_Reform 17:54:15 ranged reform[1/1]: 1) give launchers their own equipment slot; 2) ammo always mulches; 3) keep skills the same (at least for now); 4) goldify ammo. Optional: condense skills; maybe remove slings for ammo consistency in condensed skills. 17:54:18 ranged in general, about how if using a ranged weapon wasn't like "reach, but now you have no limit" 17:54:50 so he was saying after you used a ranged weapon, you had AC+SH+EV mallus applied or something 17:55:14 math reform for 0.22 17:55:18 but yeah it was all pretty sketchy 17:55:41 The premise of the plan is that ranged would be a strong full-LOS attack with fairly limited ammo that required skill training to do much of anything. Unlike wands, using it to best effect would require finding ammo and finding/enchanting a good launcher. 17:56:07 So it would be unlike reaching+++ in that it's not meant to be an "always-available" form of attack 17:56:48 Since it's not an "always" attack you could also optionally make it not able to do full damage to adjacent monsters. 17:57:12 could work 17:57:43 any of these forms runs the risk of players saying "fine I'm never using ranged never ever!" 17:57:48 since crawl gives you plenty of options 17:57:53 My premise in this plan is that ranged combat should feel fundamentally different from melee combat. 17:58:21 "Fine I'm never going to use ranged combat ever" is already the response of many players after they realize how frustrating it is. 17:58:43 It's currently mostly just plain better than melee, but relatively few players use it as much as melee. 17:59:08 right, that's sort of why I don't use it; ammo pickup aspects are a bit frustrating 17:59:13 yeah 17:59:23 but what I'm saying is that if its popularity drops lower still... 17:59:24 When I commit to ranged combat these days, it's usually a really easy game 17:59:27 it's the sort of thing where 17:59:30 but I still don't do it often 17:59:31 we have to try it and see, I guess 17:59:37 yeah 17:59:49 ideally it won't end up like blowgun needles 18:00:07 IMO if we can't reform ranged combat we should just remove it. It's bad how it is now. 18:00:07 where we make up this playstyle for people to try and no one uses it for that really 18:00:10 haha 18:00:11 yeah 18:00:25 Speaking of which, I should merge in my blowgun removal patches at some point 18:00:38 just make them darts? 18:00:40 yeah 18:00:45 could be cool 18:00:50 Hellcrawl already stole it 18:00:54 oh, my white whale, I just realize what it is 18:00:57 (and fixed some rough edges IIRC) 18:01:08 it's Zot:5 vault redesign/rework 18:01:18 that's the one that would kill me probably 18:01:25 Lasty_: I hope you're going to make them a new skill again 18:01:38 !hs * sk=darts 18:01:38 1378. Stabwound the Universal Darts Champion (L27 HaAs of Okawaru), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2007-12-06 23:22:46, with 1131024 points after 151907 turns and 15:46:03. 18:01:43 nice 18:01:50 classic stabwound 18:02:13 !lg rchandra x=cv 1 18:02:14 1/1482. [cv=0.9] rchandra the Firebug (L5 TeFE of Xom), blasted by Grinder (nerve-wracking pain) on D:3 on 2011-09-14 05:21:21, with 297 points after 4569 turns and 0:46:26. 18:02:37 the first playable version 18:02:44 shots fired 18:02:50 (no victory dancing) 18:03:04 also first version with webtiles 18:03:17 you win some and you lose some 18:04:05 rchandra: nah, in the patch I lump them in with throwing 18:04:18 gammafunk: what sort of zot:5 rework? New layouts? 18:04:37 I miss the alternate orb chambers 18:04:58 Something like tomb, where you assemble the orb chamber from microvaults? 18:05:32 could be a lot of approaches 18:05:50 just introduce more variety, maybe lose the "giant vault slappeed onto a smaller random level section" feel 18:05:57 just requires pretty careful balancing 18:06:00 oh, is a d:10 vault with a fire giant, death knight, etc. supposed to have a runed door or just be a frog trap? 18:06:03 and listening to endless player griping 18:06:06 gotcha. That does sound very cool, but very tough,. 18:06:16 not just a frog trap. 18:06:19 A naga trap too. 18:06:29 minmay_shrinking_squares 18:06:42 but yeah, that sounds like it should probably have some kind of warning... 18:07:09 well it's d:10, those sound like they could just be 9 spawns or something 18:07:15 which we don't require to be behind runed doors 18:07:27 I'll have to take a look at the vault when I have a chance though 18:07:41