00:00:30 <hellmonk> yeah its fuckin weird
00:00:44 <hellmonk> wow purp chunks are gone better play the fork that removed them a year ago
00:00:44 <gammafunk> SA is always good for a laugh
00:01:00 <gammafunk> hellmonk: maybe you could make a commit that fools them into thinking they still exist
00:01:04 <hellmonk> lol
00:01:04 <gammafunk> you'd get a few more playtesters
00:01:06 <hellmonk> pass
00:01:29 <hellmonk> what I should do is rework poison so that I don't need curing potions and then make potions of purple with the purp chunk effect
00:01:38 <hellmonk> and put them at curing rarity
00:01:57 <gammafunk> yeah I could forsee DCSS getting another "mutation gamble" item
00:02:07 <gammafunk> it just won't be anything near purple chunk common
00:02:20 <hellmonk> how many purple chunks generated on average
00:02:20 <gammafunk> or perhaps at least a new bene mut that's...better than the old one
00:02:26 <gammafunk> ho boy a lot
00:02:28 <gammafunk> let me see
00:02:52 <hellmonk> I know minqmay would always say it was hundreds, I never played mut roulette so I don't really know
00:06:05 <hellmonk> what if you removed curses and put a scroll of become purple at ?rc rarity
00:07:05 <gammafunk> !calc 0.11 * 2650.59
00:07:06 <Sequell> 291.56
00:07:14 <gammafunk> looks like close to 300 per game
00:07:20 <hellmonk> thats a fuckton
00:07:21 <gammafunk> on-average
00:08:25 <gammafunk> !calc 417 * 0.09
00:08:26 <Sequell> 37.53
00:08:40 <gammafunk> looks like you could expect to see around 40 in Dungeon alone
00:09:54 <hellmonk> hmm what is another fucking stupid item that could get replaced with purple
00:10:34 <hellmonk> what if you could use scroll of acquirement to acquire mutations
00:10:40 <gammafunk> heh
00:10:47 <hellmonk> am i a genius or what
00:10:51 <advil> lol
00:10:55 <hellmonk> just make it like triple or quadruple benemut
00:11:07 <advil> that actually ... doesn't seem completely insane
00:11:22 <advil> I would never pick it, but ...
00:11:30 <hellmonk> I would pick it sometimes
00:11:35 <hellmonk> when I have good items in all slots
00:11:40 <advil> yeah, maybe
00:11:40 <gammafunk> I feel like you could just make that rare potion type, no?
00:12:01 <hellmonk> you gotta make the player feel like they have agency gfunk
00:12:13 <gammafunk> players aren't allowed to make decisions
00:12:15 <gammafunk> not on my watch
00:12:27 <advil> that actually is the most charitable read on the SA complaints I think, they feel like some agency was removed
00:12:48 <gammafunk> oh yeah, I mean, I don't have a problem with a rare item/thing for rolling mutations, but
00:12:52 <gammafunk> we have the mutation potion for that
00:13:09 <gammafunk> you could argue for a different approach, maybe for a god
00:13:22 <advil> the potion of join jiyva
00:13:33 <gammafunk> possibly some kind of jiyva reform, making it a temple god (requires a rework of jiyva certainly)
00:13:52 <gammafunk> but being able to roll mutations 40 times in Dungeon isn't a good way to do it
00:13:59 <hellmonk> yeah obviously
00:14:37 <hellmonk> making J a temple god would be good imo
00:14:48 <gammafunk> I would want to see J somehow have a sane early game though
00:15:05 <gammafunk> and I think his way of giving mutations would also need improvement (and his way of giving stats...)
00:15:09 <hellmonk> yeah I think you have to ditch the slurping piety for it to make sense
00:15:47 <gammafunk> The whole diving thing is much of the point of the god though, you kind of don't want to lose that
00:15:47 <gammafunk> so I'm not sure
00:15:47 <gammafunk> maybe it could be more gradual somehow, not sure
00:16:07 <hellmonk> you can keep the jiyva eating items thing without tying it to piety though
00:16:21 <gammafunk> and I suppose another issue is that it weakens the concept of non-temple gods in the first place
00:16:57 <gammafunk> slime knight
00:17:00 <gammafunk> you start in slime
00:17:56 <hellmonk> slime knight but you don't start in slime and abyssal knight is removed
00:19:04 <gammafunk> I'm glad I don't have to play a crawl where snail knights exist
00:19:18 <hellmonk> T O R P O R K N I G H T
00:19:27 <gammafunk> I role play AK for real
00:19:42 <hellmonk> cannot wait to dunk the dev team yet again on april fool's day 2018
00:19:53 <gammafunk> yep
00:20:11 <gammafunk> due to an accident, the hellcrawl branch will get replaced with DCSS 0.10 on that day
00:20:23 <hellmonk> i hear tell that's the best version
00:20:26 <gammafunk> no reason will ever be found, the logs were mysteriously deleted
00:30:30 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.21-a0-578-gc6e9d75 (34)
01:20:32 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-578-gc6e9d75 (34)
01:59:25 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-578-gc6e9d75
02:55:01 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-578-gc6e9d75
03:05:49 -!- pauldub_ is now known as pauldub
03:18:50 <aidanh> !tell advil I've been playtesting new menu wrapping, and I'm not sure it works well with the inv menu with fewer items
03:18:50 <Sequell> aidanh: OK, I'll let advil know.
03:20:41 <aidanh> !tell advil I now have to scan two columns instead of one, so things like ID-ing several items in succession have an extra bit of jank
03:20:41 <Sequell> aidanh: OK, I'll let advil know.
03:22:22 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-578-gc6e9d75 (34)
04:22:42 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
04:23:34 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
06:30:44 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
08:34:01 <Cheibriados> Food rations not stacking neatly in inventory 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11328 by stoneychips
10:02:32 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/672 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/672
10:02:33 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/672 * 0.21-a0-539-g993baff: Fix tiles not properly processing mouse move events 10(25 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/993baff06ae7
10:29:52 <advil> huh, nice catch
10:29:52 <Sequell> advil: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
10:29:58 <advil> re the mouse move thing
10:31:30 <advil> I will just merge that once travis is done
10:39:34 <aidanh> great; laggy targeting is also mentioned in https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10278, although I think that's a separate issue
10:40:26 <advil> I think there've been several issues leading to laggy targeting in the past
10:41:02 <advil> we've had recent reports about it but only on windows iirc (actually I wonder if it's with some specific mice or something), which this may fix
10:41:42 <advil> if someone has some kind of super high resolution gaming mouse I could see that making this bug worse
10:45:01 <aidanh> i'm just using a touchpad to reproduce, no need for a super mouse
10:46:02 <aidanh> oh, I was going to ask about always doing a redraw after a mousemotion event
10:46:15 <advil> well, it still must vary between touchpads because my laptop is fine
10:46:48 <advil> hm, not sure, I haven't looked at that code much before looking at your PR
10:47:48 <aidanh> it'd fix an issue I'm getting with hover lag on menus, and a redraw without any viewwindow() stuff should be fairly fast
10:58:14 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 {advil} 07* 0.21-a0-579-g50ea28b: Fix tiles not properly processing mouse move events 10(81 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/50ea28b629dc
10:59:56 <advil> "Please make adding in everything that was stupidly removed a goal of hellcrawl, hellmonk"
11:00:03 <advil> I ... think they might be missing the point
11:04:00 <advil> should probably just not look at that thread, there's like 0.00 signal there
11:09:35 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-579-g50ea28b629 (34)
11:22:12 <advil> "Summoned player ghosts are already given a position" anyone know what a summoned player ghost is?  wizmode &m created maybe?
11:22:19 <advil> oh, maybe mara's illusion is a player ghost?
11:32:30 <Implojin> about player agency re: mutation stacking after the loss of mutagenic chunks, I have an old idea that might be worth floating here
11:33:18 <Implojin> the idea was a new item, a scroll of beasts, that would act as an aoe polymorph, which would also have some chance of applying mutations to the player character
11:34:33 <aidanh> sort of like 'scroll of mutagenic fog'?
11:34:48 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/673 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/673
11:34:48 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/673 * 0.21-a0-539-g0644f11: Fix local tiles resize during yesno and stat gain prompt 10(6 minutes ago, 2 files, 18+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0644f11be04f
11:35:27 <Implojin> here, i'll just link my old notes on it
11:35:43 <Implojin> less like scroll of mutagenic fog and more like, hm
11:36:35 <Implojin> scroll of abyssal star mutagenic light, or whatever the monster name is, although with permanent muts
11:36:44 <Implojin> https://gist.github.com/Implojin/07031e1df35f7684588095f6a061d442
11:36:53 <Implojin> okay those notes are very rough and probably hardly worth linking
11:36:55 <Implojin> but yeah
11:37:19 <Implojin> i thought it could be flavoured around cyclops and their bands of beasts
11:37:58 <Implojin> and i've always thought that the -mr setup before /poly was irritating from a gameplay perspective
11:39:36 <Implojin> anyway i'm not sure if there's merit here as an item, but something in that vein might be worth looking at
11:40:03 <advil> yeah, there was some talk of adding another mutation source yesterday
11:40:37 <advil> the big issue with poly imo is that it's very hard to know when it's a good idea to use it, and it's often unexpectedly (to someone who hasn't memorized the hd-sorted monster list) a terrible idea
11:41:22 <Implojin> yes, which is partially why i had wanted to limit this scroll to a monster pool of dumb HD sacks like elephants etc
11:41:37 <Implojin> (it also works with the flavour, but thats minor)
11:42:26 <advil> oh I see, it's not the same as regular poly
12:21:42 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/632 * 0.21-a0-580-g845135c: Remove menu.set_maxpagesize interface 10(8 weeks ago, 7 files, 3+ 38-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/845135cc4dcd
12:21:42 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/632 * 0.21-a0-581-g0b16bba: Assert that menus have a valid selection flag 10(8 weeks ago, 2 files, 19+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0b16bbafebb4
12:21:42 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/632 * 0.21-a0-582-g0e0e159: Explicitly set MF_SINGLESELECT on describe menu 10(8 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0e0e1595dae4
12:21:42 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/632 * 0.21-a0-583-g36f408f: Remove unused menu.f_drawitem hook 10(8 weeks ago, 2 files, 2+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/36f408f9569d
12:21:42 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/632 * 0.21-a0-584-g04e578d: Remove column_compoer set_pagesize() 10(8 weeks ago, 4 files, 2+ 20-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/04e578db1507
12:21:42 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/632 * 0.21-a0-585-g3633579: Refactor Menu scrolling into MenuDisplay 10(8 weeks ago, 7 files, 408+ 318-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3633579c9b51
12:21:42 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/632 * 0.21-a0-586-ge7d96eb: Remove limit on lookup-help results length 10(8 weeks ago, 1 file, 8+ 17-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e7d96ebb575f
12:21:42 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/632 * 0.21-a0-587-g54de8c5: 2-col tile menus: wrap horizontally and support line scrolling 10(5 days ago, 4 files, 253+ 177-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/54de8c58354f
12:22:31 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07[spooky_cleanup] * 0.21-a0-555-g8fe4c60: Move some initialization inside ghost_init 10(28 minutes ago, 3 files, 3+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8fe4c6038d89
12:25:25 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-579-g50ea28b (34)
12:48:48 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
13:14:34 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/632 * 0.21-a0-587-gd6643ea: 2-col tile menus: wrap horizontally and support line scrolling 10(5 days ago, 4 files, 254+ 177-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d6643eafe211
13:28:48 <aidanh> Is BFLAG_NO_XLEV_TRAVEL on some branches only for technical reasons? I was thinking of adding travel support at least abyss and pan
14:19:30 <geekosaur> those sound like exaxtly the two cases where I'd expect it to have problems, or at least lots of edge cases
14:23:37 <aidanh> yup, most likely
14:23:56 <aidanh> But there's no gameplay/UI-related reason the other portal branches aren't listed?
14:26:04 <geekosaur> xlev travel has some issues in shoals too, considering the place you are traveling to might currently be in deep water (for non-Mf/Op)
14:26:31 <geekosaur> or the path to it might be, if you don't have flight (but then shoals is going to be a massive pain without flight anyway)
14:27:10 <geekosaur> at least one hell ending has similar issues
14:27:52 <geekosaur> although from this discussionI wonder if you, or maybe the game and that's what's confusing you, are conflating travel across a single level with travel across levels\
14:28:50 <geekosaur> or possibly some parts of the game are mistaking one for the other. am not sure
14:32:13 <aidanh> I was thinking of interlevel-travel (G)
14:33:41 <aidanh> there's probably not much that can be done with travel with X
14:35:20 <geekosaur> right, interlevel travel is just not going to work in pan (can't go back) or abyss (can get to the level but never to the same place) --- and the implementation relies on the fact that you have valid maps for those earlier levels
14:35:31 <geekosaur> or at least the parts you can reach
14:39:45 <aidanh> oh, it's not going to work inside (unless there's an exit portal), but i'm thinking about getting there from outside
14:47:36 <|amethyst> amalloy:  any reason not to merge the updated https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/647 ?
14:47:48 <|amethyst> amalloy:  he was asking about it in tavern  https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=24927
14:48:24 <|amethyst> !seen amalloy
14:48:24 <Sequell> I last saw amalloy at Fri Dec 15 03:23:01 2017 UTC (3d 16h 25m 22s ago) saying 'the player doesn't mention his username, so i just grabbed a random player on cbro to see if it was happening for everyone' on ##crawl-dev.
14:48:26 <amalloy> oh, i didn't realize i'd already commented on this and thereby made myself responsible for it. no, it looks okay to me
14:48:34 <|amethyst> heh
14:48:38 <amalloy> not that i'm a local tiles expert
14:49:06 <|amethyst> hm
14:49:10 <|amethyst> advil also commented
14:49:37 <|amethyst> advil:  see any reason not to merge https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/647?  he was asking in tavern  https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=24927
14:50:08 <amalloy> |amethyst: have you tested it? i haven't; i'm building local tiles now
14:50:12 <|amethyst> (note the implication that advil is a tiles "expert")
14:50:17 <|amethyst> I guess I can do that
14:51:33 <amalloy> ...and i built tiles without applying this patch. no wonder the feature doesn't work
14:53:07 <|amethyst> actually, I guess aidanh is our tiles expert right now :)
14:54:10 <amalloy> yes, no doubt about that
14:55:32 <amalloy> looks to me like the PR works
14:57:30 <amalloy> i don't understand what the getchm() is all about though
14:57:49 <amalloy> oh, i see
14:58:15 <amalloy> it causes us to pause waiting for a keystroke before going back to the main screen
14:58:31 <aidanh> the getchm is a little weird; why would that be needed at all?
14:59:23 <amalloy> aidanh: is my guess wrong?
15:00:08 <aidanh> well, that is what getchm() does, but ... oh
15:00:47 <aidanh> yeah, makes sense; it'll probably be inconsistent with the other sidebar right-click actions though
15:01:04 <amalloy> i was about to hit Merge on it; if you have a better implementation i can hold off
15:02:02 <|amethyst> ah, other ones require esc to exit
15:02:17 <|amethyst> I do admit it seems convenient to be able to exit with the mouse though
15:03:05 <|amethyst> ah, right-click works for items, but monsters (because there it toggles to the quote)
15:04:02 <|amethyst> spells seem to have the getchm behaviour, judging by how easy it is to exit
15:04:02 <|amethyst> but I didn't check the code
15:04:14 <aidanh> I think as a quick fix it's fine, although I might take a stab at deduplicating some of that description UI sometime
15:04:56 <|amethyst> so it seems like this makes ability describe work like spell describe, which is already different from inventory describe and monster-list describe
15:05:30 <Cheibriados> 03Filip Michałowski02 {amalloy} 07* 0.21-a0-580-g5a59f16: Fixed no ability description on R-click (mantis #11231) 10(6 seconds ago, 3 files, 25+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5a59f1690dff
15:05:42 <|amethyst> seems to also work like skill describe
15:08:27 <aidanh> some of those also exit the description when you resize the window, which is weird from a user perspective
15:10:51 <aidanh> oh, in PR #665 I already did some stuff to replace print_description(), which should unify all those
16:09:34 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-580-g5a59f1690d (34)
16:44:33 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/674 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/674
16:44:33 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/674 * 0.21-a0-581-gd2417b2: Fix extra pixel in demonic rune tile 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d2417b251b7e
16:48:24 <|amethyst> aidanh:  which pixel is it?  I don't see it?
16:49:49 <|amethyst> aidanh:  ah, now I do
16:49:58 <CanOfWorms> yeah there's a stray white pixel near the bottom of the old tile
16:50:11 <|amethyst> probably much more noticeable on a black background than in the github image diff UI
16:50:21 <|amethyst> I had to zoom to 500X to see it
16:50:37 <|amethyst> err, 5X
16:50:57 <|amethyst> s/see/notice/
17:00:22 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 {amalloy} 07* 0.21-a0-581-gb7d493d: Fix extra pixel in demonic rune tile 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b7d493ddfcf1
17:20:19 <|amethyst> I don't even think a full mailing list like that is necessary
17:20:23 <|amethyst> doh
18:01:09 <advil> if you have f that expects an argument of (stl) type t &, and g that returns something of type t, is there any way to call f(g()) directly? I would have thought this would be ok in c++11 with move semantics
18:09:23 <amalloy> advil: where would the actual object of type t live? g is out of scope, f has no space for it in its stack frame. you could put it in the caller's stack frame but that seems a little weird to do implicitly
18:09:36 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-581-gb7d493ddfc (34)
18:09:39 <amalloy> if you control f you could make it take a t&& instead
18:09:44 <advil> yes, I'd envisioned it being in the caller's stack
18:09:53 <advil> I can easily get that to work with a temporary variable
18:10:42 <advil> hmm, I'd have to understand t&& first, which I don't (though it's come up in my searches)
18:12:10 <|amethyst> advil:  what's the function that takes a foo& anyway?
18:12:20 <amalloy> in my limited understanding, t&& is sorta like "a reference to a t that nobody else has a reference to" because it lives in a temporary location on the stack with no named variable referring to it
18:12:35 <|amethyst> advil:  if it could take a const foo& then it would work
18:12:42 <advil> ah i was just testing const
18:13:37 <amalloy> ah, i wondered if that might be the problem
18:15:13 <advil> do either of you know what the reasoning is behind it not working if it's not const?
18:16:10 <amalloy> the temporary "variable" created to store g() is const, because changing it would be meaningless: it's about to go out of scope
18:16:35 <amalloy> well, i said that with more confidence than is really merited
18:16:49 <advil> well, you could do stuff to it internal to f and that seems harmless
18:16:58 <|amethyst> in general you can't take a single-& reference to, or an address of, an rvalue
18:17:53 <|amethyst> but you can initialize a const reference from it, which extends the lifetime of the object
18:17:58 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.21-a0-581-gb7d493ddfc (34)
18:18:10 <advil> yeah, making it all const did the trick
18:18:14 <|amethyst> I guess part of the rationale is that you don't want to be making changes to something that's going to be thrown away
18:18:20 <advil> the function is save_ghost, I'm still trying to clean ghost save/load code up (remove dependence on game state) in preparation for the possibility of using ghosts in a different way
18:18:47 <advil> it doesn't take an argument like this in trunk
18:19:43 <|amethyst> in general, for large types (bigger than a couple of pointers or so), if you can get by with const & that's the best
18:20:09 <advil> yeah that seems reasonable here, it just had a domino effect
18:20:15 <advil> that took forever to recompile
18:22:04 <|amethyst> rvalue references also extend lifetimes, and allow modification (though it's something you're likely to be throwing away)
18:22:20 <advil> I see
18:22:21 <|amethyst> but they don't bind to lvalues, so are basically only for temporaries
18:22:50 <|amethyst> details here, but not really the best place to start: http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/reference
18:23:52 <amalloy> |amethyst: you say if you can get by with const& that's best, but doesn't the "best" choice between const t& and t&& depend on how you expect the function to be usually called?
18:24:10 <|amethyst> amalloy:  it's rare IMO that you'd want t&& without also having some kind of overload for lvalues
18:24:27 <|amethyst> amalloy:  except in special cases like unique_ptr
18:25:22 <amalloy> i guess the only example of this i can find is the one that i put in there, _apply_to_monsters
18:26:36 <amalloy> a private function where the only reasonable way to call it is f(x, y, foo(bar)), and foo is a moderately-sized class
18:26:39 <|amethyst> yeah, if you ever had a radius_iterator in a variable, you'd have to do:
18:27:02 <|amethyst> _apply_to_monsters(f, std::move(ri))
18:27:05 <amalloy> right
18:27:09 <|amethyst> and it makes sense there
18:27:20 <|amethyst> since by advancing through the iterator you essentially destroy it
18:27:37 <amalloy> yeah
18:28:28 <|amethyst> I would consider making it just call-by-value, but radius_iterator is moderately big so copying is probably not great
18:28:30 <amalloy> so that reminds me, move "promises" that you won't reuse the existing object. in your example, what would happen if we tried to use ri again? does the compiler stop us, or do we just get UB?
18:28:40 <|amethyst> OTOH, moving is not much cheaper than copying
18:28:42 <amalloy> i would guess the compiler can't stop us
18:29:07 <|amethyst> amalloy:  it is in a "valid but unspecified" state
18:31:01 <|amethyst> amalloy:  so you can still (e.g.) assign to it
18:31:08 <amalloy> ah
18:31:33 <amalloy> and i guess the class owner is expected to have written operator= to work when it's in such a state
18:31:43 <|amethyst> yes
18:31:44 <|amethyst> well
18:32:11 <|amethyst> unless you have a move constructor or such you don't have to worry about it
18:32:53 <amalloy> right
18:33:09 <|amethyst> and if you did, then yeah, you make sure that operator= handles the state
18:33:40 <|amethyst> or that the move ctor/assignment operator does
18:38:11 <|amethyst> for example, in an implementation of vector, the move operators would probably leave their argument empty, which is a state the other members all know how to handle
18:38:35 <|amethyst> (well, pop_back() doesn't know how to handle it, obviously; but member functions without prerequisites are fine)
18:39:37 <|amethyst> but it would be legal to, for example, copy half the items and move the rest, leaving the "temporary" with half the items
18:39:45 <|amethyst> no one would do that of course
18:40:30 <|amethyst> (legal language-wise; it probably wouldn't satisfy vector's contract)
18:41:43 <|amethyst> (or maybe it would?  I don't remember if vector makes any complexity promises about the move operations)
18:47:24 <|amethyst> amalloy:  hm, actually, I think I would make _apply_to_monsters take its iterator by value
18:48:18 <|amethyst> amalloy:  since radius_operator doesn't have a move constructor, and even if it did it doesn't contain anything that would be cheaper to move than to copy
18:48:34 <|amethyst> amalloy:  hm
18:49:10 <|amethyst> amalloy:  I guess it wouldn't hurt to have the && overload, since there are still some cases where there is neither a move nor a copy
18:49:24 <|amethyst> s/wouldn't hurt/would be good/
19:01:32 <amalloy> https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/7knzrw/smallest_d5_ive_seen/ has to be a bug in the map generation, right? all the connected stairs are right there, so i don't think the problem is that the rest of the level is connected by different stairs
19:03:06 <|amethyst> it's a bug in map generation if there is a rest of the level
19:03:13 <|amethyst> otherwise it's a flaw in the layout
19:03:25 <|amethyst> and the builder did the best it could
19:04:01 <|amethyst> the fact that all six stairs ended up in such a small space makes me think this is the whole level (other than walls of course)
19:05:34 <amalloy> ah, a flaw in the layout is a better way of thinking about it, yes
19:05:38 <|amethyst> (I guess layouts are part of "map generation", so your statement isn't incorrect)
19:05:54 <|amethyst> it *could* be something getting cut off by a vault
19:06:07 <|amethyst> but then you'd expect some of the stairs to have ended up on the other side by chance
19:06:51 <|amethyst> that would be a problem with the builder, because it's supposed to reject those cases
19:07:19 <|amethyst> (particularly when one of the sides lacks stair connectivity)
19:09:32 <Rotatell> ziggurnaut (L1 HOBe)  (D:1)
19:10:00 <amalloy> right. i was thinking like a player: "the map generation is wrong", and hadn't thought enough about specifically how it is wrong (the layout)
19:15:12 <hellmonk> so when are the devs implementing purple stairs
19:16:04 -!- jeefus is now known as jefus
19:20:10 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07[spooky_cleanup] * 0.21-a0-556-gaed09f4: Allow saving arbitrary vectors of ghosts 10(56 minutes ago, 8 files, 13+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aed09f4bc4ec
19:20:10 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07[spooky_cleanup] * 0.21-a0-557-gd85e2b5: Allow partial loading of bones files, and enforce level limits on load 10(8 minutes ago, 5 files, 32+ 31-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d85e2b554d65
19:23:08 <advil> hellmonk: are you going to do it in hellcrawl??
19:23:09 <gammafunk> advil: is spooky_cleanup a prelude to one of those newghosts proposals we hashed out?
19:23:25 <advil> yeah, it's basically me trying to get things into a state where you can load ghosts one at a time
19:23:26 <hellmonk> advil: strongly considering it as a repurposing of hatches
19:23:36 <gammafunk> heh
19:23:46 <hellmonk> which have the added advantage of appearing "randomly" (but frequently)
19:23:51 <gammafunk> I had mused with the idea of purple fountains
19:24:00 <gammafunk> but those are pretty inconvenient
19:24:13 <hellmonk> purple fountains don't solve the backtracking problem in mainline, so you might as well keep purp chunks at that point
19:24:18 <advil> I created a branch to try to sketch out hellmonk's acquirement idea and then I looked at the acquirement code and deleted the branch
19:24:24 <hellmonk> I guess it's slightly more convenient than monster storage
19:24:27 <hellmonk> advil: lol
19:24:33 <gammafunk> yeah I didn't really care for acquire mutations anyhow
19:24:39 <gammafunk> for one it muddles the idea of what acquirement is
19:24:40 <advil> yeah, I wasn't sure it would fit
19:24:44 <gammafunk> it's giving you physical items
19:25:05 <hellmonk> I considered purple fountains for hellcrawl too but I'm not sure if it's worth the effort to code an additional feature when I could instead repurpose existing content
19:25:21 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/675 (5 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/675
19:25:21 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/675 * 0.21-a0-553-g4e0d3c9: Don't create buggy ghosts in wizmode 10(27 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4e0d3c978f9b
19:25:21 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/675 * 0.21-a0-554-gacc8fd8: Refactor ghost load/save to avoid global state 10(27 hours ago, 6 files, 148+ 114-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/acc8fd84587a
19:25:21 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/675 * 0.21-a0-555-g8fe4c60: Move some initialization inside ghost_init 10(8 hours ago, 3 files, 3+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8fe4c6038d89
19:25:21 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/675 * 0.21-a0-556-gaed09f4: Allow saving arbitrary vectors of ghosts 10(61 minutes ago, 8 files, 13+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aed09f4bc4ec
19:25:21 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/675 * 0.21-a0-557-gd85e2b5: Allow partial loading of bones files, and enforce level limits on load 10(13 minutes ago, 5 files, 32+ 31-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d85e2b554d65
19:25:24 <gammafunk> yeah hatches seem like they'd work for hellcrawl
19:25:40 <gammafunk> for dcss I think it'd probably be fine but there's not a great reason to introduce more backtracking anyhow, and the main question is
19:25:48 <hellmonk> yes, I suggested using one of the main stairs for mainline DCSS because you wouldn't want an additional tradeoff against hatch unsafety
19:25:59 <gammafunk> how much of this feature would we allow (not too much; but how much, exactly)
19:26:09 <gammafunk> I'm sure some would argue that the drop rate of !mutation is sufficient
19:26:12 <gammafunk> presently
19:26:20 <advil> it seems like for mainline the choice is either inventory space or backtracking
19:26:25 <hellmonk> yeah I'm not the person to ask bc I do not really play mut roulette
19:26:41 <amalloy> do we still expect the qw.rc in test/stress to work? it looks like it is out of step with a number of semi-recent changes, like sacrificing corpses to trog and it thinks DD can recharge wands rather than self-healing
19:26:55 <hellmonk> but you can always generate less !mut if you really want to enforce the gambling aspect, it's not like you have to hold either end fixed
19:27:01 <advil> amalloy: it doesn't get run automatically, I think someone needs to update it from time to time
19:27:09 <gammafunk> well I found it sort of odd that we had it in the repo since yeah, it's going to get out of date
19:27:13 <advil> amalloy: can just copy from elliptic's repo
19:27:16 <gammafunk> is it directly used in make test right now?
19:27:42 <advil> no
19:27:53 <gammafunk> I guess we could make it a submodule, but that's probably a bad thing to introduce unless it's hosted under the crawl org
19:28:40 <advil> as a stress test it probably doesn't need to be absolutely current as long as it doesn't crash or freeze
19:29:10 <advil> for mut roulette the simplest thing would be just a misc item that stacks and adds one random mutation, basically purple chunks without the food subsystem whose drop rate could be directly tweaked
19:29:59 <hellmonk> yeah I suppose that's the direct replacement
19:30:37 <advil> it's sort of boring
19:30:43 <advil> boring / pandering
19:30:53 <advil> I have no good ideas about what the drop rate should be for an item like that
19:30:56 <hellmonk> it doesn't "solve the problem" of backtracking or whatever if that's an actual dev concern and not just a tavernplayer concern
19:31:28 <hellmonk> bc optimally you'd not bother to carry those items around
19:31:46 <hellmonk> but I would not care enough to complain about it personally
19:31:49 <advil> true
19:32:15 <hellmonk> just reeeeemove stairs, it's the only way to solve backtracking
19:32:56 <advil> I don't know how much I care about backtracking
19:33:03 <advil> you wouldn't want us stealing your brand
19:33:07 <hellmonk> lol
19:33:23 <advil> we'd get all your players back!!
19:33:30 <hellmonk> sa finally figured out I'm a tavern memer so they might abandon me anyway
19:33:55 <advil> heh yeah they hate you now
19:34:28 <hellmonk> I'm gonna drop something huge next year that might go over with them though (not hellcrawl related)
19:34:41 <advil> they would love you again if you add purple stairs though
19:34:45 <advil> are you reviving ca??
19:34:53 <hellmonk> ca is a clusterfuck so no
19:34:56 <advil> haha
19:35:07 <advil> that was before my time as a dev so I know nothing about it
19:35:12 <hellmonk> I really do think purple stairs is a workable idea
19:35:49 <hellmonk> you lose out on some of the 'randomness' of getting mut sources though, so some people might not like that
19:36:00 <advil> yeah, it does sound kind of fun in a way, works better without upstairs though
19:36:07 <advil> do you just have 4 downstairs right now?
19:36:22 <hellmonk> 3 + however many hatches the dungeon generation algorithm generates
19:36:52 <hellmonk> I didn't do a lot of modifying with that bc I didn't want to break anything
19:36:54 <advil> ah I see
19:36:57 <advil> yeah, good point
19:37:02 <advil> since they are used for closets and so on
19:37:37 <hellmonk> yeah, I remove disconnects when I hear about them and I opened up the level generation in orc and slime to avoid producing those
19:38:01 <hellmonk> but it's good to have a backup plan to avoid trapping people
19:38:26 <amalloy> what is the deal with purple stairs here
19:38:35 <hellmonk> check out my incredibly forum post
19:39:07 <hellmonk> in this thread: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=24928
19:40:07 <advil> huh "When you kill a mutagenic enemy like a sky beast or an ugly thing, it should leave a mutagenic cloud." that's actually an interesting idea. I rescind my 0.0 signal comment
19:40:24 <amalloy> i'm sad to see that qw does not appear to be watchable in local tiles. oh well
19:40:44 <amalloy> i was gonna tell someone on /r/dcss to try it, but i guess i'll just have to tell them to learn console
19:41:11 <hellmonk> mutagenic cloud muts are heavily negative though right, since they give contam?
19:41:27 <advil> yeah, they'd have to be a new cloud type that does random muts
19:41:52 <hellmonk> you'd also want to make sure the cloud doesn't interact w/ monsters I guess? Do monsters walk into mutagenic clouds willingly?
19:41:53 <advil> it's probably still way too many mutation chances for that idea to be viable
19:42:53 <advil> I suppose the cloud rate could be tweaked
19:42:58 <hellmonk> Yeah I think you want to establish how many mutation opportunities you want people to have. 300 or w/e from chunks sounds like way too much to me but I doubt anyone used all of them in a game.
19:43:11 <advil> I really have no idea
19:43:27 <advil> I have eaten maybe like 3 purple chunks in my crawl lifetime
19:43:49 <hellmonk> If you keep the source coming from monsters you'll keep the current "clustering" pattern too where you can mutate a lot in some areas and not much/at all in others
19:43:54 <hellmonk> dunno if that's desirable or not
19:44:09 <advil> your idea is basically one per level, which doesn't seem too crazy
19:44:50 <hellmonk> yes, but it's also distributed a lot differently than purple chunks were
19:45:02 <advil> I guess the cloud thing would not head off mut creature farming
19:45:41 <hellmonk> you couldn't really get purp chunks before like D:4 or whenever sky beasts started showing up and they were pretty rare until later D when you started hitting ugly thing packs
19:46:01 <hellmonk> and then you got like a million of them
19:48:19 <gammafunk> advil: qw is watchable in tiles, they can set the throttle to e.g. 100 or so
19:48:33 <advil> ^ amalloy
19:48:38 <gammafunk> oh, sorry
19:48:43 <advil> np
19:48:46 <gammafunk> not watchable if you set it to no throttle, but it's not too watch in console with no throttle either
19:49:00 <gammafunk> *watchable
19:49:01 <amalloy> ah, cool
19:49:20 <gammafunk> although I do watch it even then, tbf
19:49:40 <amalloy> i had set the throttle to like 25ms, which is semi-watchable in console (though of course not the details) but in tiles it never gets past the "press any key to start" screen
19:50:01 <gammafunk> how do you mean? it doesn't start playing?
19:50:07 <advil> hm there's a rc option to disable that
19:50:24 <gammafunk> oh, I see
19:50:29 <advil> tile_skip_title = true
19:50:30 <gammafunk> yeah I did it in webtiles I think
19:50:41 <amalloy> well sure, of course it's watchable in webtiles
19:50:49 <amalloy> i see, i didn't notice that setting, advil
19:51:02 <gammafunk> not sure if that will actually skip that prompt, but worth a shot
19:51:54 <gammafunk> wrt to re-adding mutation sources, we just want to keep in mind that one of the main points of that change is that it's not easy to get lets of good mutations
19:52:56 <hellmonk> some reddit guy is insisting that mut chunks are more likely to be positive when you have less than 5 muts
19:53:24 <hellmonk> is this technically true bc of how mut chunks can remove mutations or is this the confirmation bias that i assume it is
19:53:45 <gammafunk> I'd have to look at the code to be sure
19:53:47 <amalloy> i think it's sorta true, in that random mutations are in general slightly more likely to be good than bad
19:53:56 <hellmonk> I know the ratio of good to bad was 60-40 or w/e
19:54:04 <advil> all mutation sources can remove mutations
19:54:18 <hellmonk> just wondering if the statistics would work out at all for chunks to be better on average with a low number of mutations
19:54:41 <amalloy> hellmonk: well, the more good mutations you have the more likely it is to remove one
19:54:52 <amalloy> but you may have bad mutations instead, in which case that makes chunks even better on average
19:55:01 <hellmonk> hm, ok
19:55:16 <advil> yeah there could be some kind of tipping point? if you really care,  you can adapt the code in test/mutation.lua to simulate it
19:55:28 <amalloy> so i don't think absolute number of mutations is so relevant. you need to know both how many you have and what percentage of them are good, to really say
19:59:36 <amalloy> oh i see, i'd set DELAY_TIME but DELAYED was false so it was being ignored
20:00:26 <amalloy> totally works with tile_skip_title and a reasonable delay, although i can't alt-tab out of it because the alt input causes qw to stop playing
20:00:46 <gammafunk> weird that it even passes that
20:01:08 <gammafunk> guess you have to just click out of focus instead
20:01:17 <amalloy> yeah, i found that solution also
20:01:21 <gammafunk> that does sound like a Tiles UI bug though
20:01:26 <amalloy> i don't really understand local tiles. i can't even hit like ^qyes to quit; i have to hit *q because ^q does nothing
20:01:34 <gammafunk> hrm
20:01:38 <gammafunk> do you remap ctrl key?
20:01:52 <advil> sounds like a linux thing
20:01:57 <gammafunk> I've not had problems with alt-tab -> ingame tab in tiles though
20:01:57 <amalloy> man, that's totally what it is, gammafunk
20:02:08 <amalloy> i was hitting capslock, which my whole OS knows is ctrl
20:02:09 <gammafunk> and amalloy is on OS X, isn't he?
20:02:10 <amalloy> but not crawl
20:02:16 <amalloy> linux at work
20:02:20 <gammafunk> oh gotcha
20:02:30 <gammafunk> I also map capslock to ctrl, and figured you might
20:02:33 <gammafunk> filthy emacs user!
20:02:54 <amalloy> imo anyone who doesn't remap capslock to *something* is a maniac
20:03:00 <gammafunk> you may be right
20:03:02 <amalloy> map it to esc if you're a vimmer
20:03:10 <amalloy> i guess i mean, a MANIAC
20:03:34 <gammafunk> I have the mapping done at the Wayland/xkbd level
20:03:41 <hellmonk> oh, another advantage of purple stairs is you could do an all purple stairs run
20:03:44 <gammafunk> but not sure if I'd have the same problem, probably I would
20:03:48 <hellmonk> which would be a cool conduct
20:03:54 <advil> would be kind of neat to be able to run qw from the main menu or something
20:04:01 <gammafunk> heh
20:04:23 <gammafunk> well, we could have qw as a submodule, but I think we'd have to convince elliptic to move it there
20:04:30 <gammafunk> there being the crawl org
20:04:33 <gammafunk> which maybe he doesn't want to do
20:04:45 <gammafunk> and maybe introducing that as a dependency is a bit weird
20:05:37 <advil> yeah, probably not viable
20:05:52 <advil> it's an interesting point (from the same reddit thread) that there aren't any videos of qw playing
20:06:17 <advil> at least that I can find
20:06:51 <gammafunk> no, but you could of course watch a qw ttyrec
20:07:42 <amalloy> if only we had crawl experts who knew how to make videos
20:08:03 <amalloy> imagine the bits you could get from streaming a qw run
20:09:16 <gammafunk> I like how you said that as a person with more crawl videos than I have
20:09:35 <gammafunk> you work at the company that hosts said videos!!!
20:09:53 <gammafunk> maybe get them to have a DCSS doodle on my birthday and I'll consider it
20:15:06 <amalloy> sorry, my indie console videos just don't have the reach that your sellout tiles streams do
20:15:11 <amalloy> the responsibility falls to you
20:40:22 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
20:46:27 -!- Bammboobies is now known as Bammboo
21:04:22 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
21:56:29 <advil> btw I didn't say this very explicitly but if anyone who knows anything about the ghost code, or how bones files work in practice on servers, wants to glance at #675 and see if I screwed anything up, feel free
21:57:07 <advil> in particular, the last change shifts the ghost per level constraints from save to load, and I'm wondering if this could have weird consequences I didn't think about
21:57:25 <advil> (also the ghost per level constraints as they are now are kind of dumb)
22:42:31 <Henzell> MrDeSaussure (L6 CeHu) ASSERT((int)Buffer.size() == expanded_keys_left) in 'macro.cc' at line 544 failed. (D:4)
22:43:41 <advil> !crashlog
22:43:51 <Sequell> 18231. MrDeSaussure, XL6 CeHu, T:5259 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/MrDeSaussure/crash-MrDeSaussure-20171219-034229.txt
22:53:47 <|amethyst> probably confused the sign with the signifier
23:43:45 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-582-g1b93aee: Let carnivores get nutrition out of chunks above full (ranchugoldfish) 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1b93aeea53da
23:44:30 <advil> |amethyst: you may want to double check that ^ was your intent, but I was going off of other changes in the commit that changed the nutrition mutations
23:45:51 <advil> basically missed because of implicit conversion to bool, I'm guessing
23:55:41 <|amethyst> yeah, likes_chunks used to be 0 or 3
23:55:55 <|amethyst> (or 1 or 2 for nonexistant players with Carn 1 or 2)