00:09:38 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.21-a0-400-g417d9d2 (34) 00:18:14 -!- uelen is now known as uelenbot 00:41:22 yeah, i agree it's clearly right to remove that. i would say feel free to send a message if you want, either as yourself or as /r/dcss, but it's not required 00:41:54 I removed it; won't send a message this time but will warn them if it happens again 00:43:48 wow, go reddit 00:43:53 that url is a hell of a cliffhanger 00:44:14 spoilers: it ends with "to gammafunk" 00:44:29 i was expecting it to end with some crawl monster 00:44:38 yeah or maybe a crawl god 00:44:58 yep, I thought it was going to be a minmay post initially! 00:45:28 i would only post on reddit if i got famous for something, or found a locked safe 00:45:58 IAmA famous elf lover, AMA! 00:55:22 New branch created: pull/629 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/629 00:55:22 03alexjurkiewicz02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/629 * 0.21-a0-349-gdb81310: Make melee attack noise independent of damage done 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/db81310083cf 01:02:05 -!- xynashi is now known as isha 01:20:37 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-400-g417d9d2 (34) 01:42:56 -!- eb__ is now known as eb_ 02:00:30 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-400-g417d9d2 02:54:30 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-400-g417d9d2 03:08:33 -!- eb__ is now known as eb_ 03:15:09 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-400-g417d9d2 (34) 03:21:47 New branch created: pull/630 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/630 03:21:47 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/630 * 0.21-a0-401-g8709266: Make dream sheep tile face left 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/87092664ef7c 05:13:36 ziggurnaut (L24 OpWz) (Elf:1) 05:24:44 -!- rchandra is now known as rc_zzz 06:15:03 -!- bh is now known as Guest82109 06:58:04 Mantis has a new bug, it sometimes changes filter preferences: when I leave https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view_all_bug_page.php tab open and then come back after a while, filters are changed. It happened several times, each time filter set was different. 07:47:07 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 07:47:51 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 08:37:49 not a fan of random noise on damage 08:46:27 and uh removing that r/dcss thread seems appropriate 08:54:59 !source player.h:511 08:54:59 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player.h#L511 08:55:14 is there any good reason for these to be virtual in actor? 08:55:35 I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest we will never add adjusted body armour penalties to monsters (etc) 08:57:27 <|amethyst> advil: I think you linked the wrong thing, but I agree. They are only ever used in player-specific code 08:57:42 !source monster.h:511 08:57:43 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/monster.h#L511 08:57:46 that one 08:58:10 %git d54975193e9f43655bff9f3e32fceee3ba23cbed 08:58:10 07Cryp71c02 * 0.8.0-a0-5814-gd549751: Add actor::[adjusted|unadjusted]_body_armor_penalty 10(7 years ago, 5 files, 33+ 41-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d54975193e9f 08:58:18 apparently someone once wanted to add monster ev 08:58:24 but let's not 08:58:27 <|amethyst> things like armour_to_hit_penalty are used in code that deals with both monsters and players 08:59:06 <|amethyst> so making them specific to player would involve more monster-vs-player checks in attack.cc 08:59:20 hm, I hadn't checked those last two 09:00:27 <|amethyst> ugh, also, why is it "tohit" instead of "to_hit" 09:01:13 heh I just made that mistake when trying to git grep them too 09:01:15 <|amethyst> I guess nothing is arguably closer to a hyphen than an underscore is, but not really 09:02:46 <|amethyst> looks like we're approximately evenly-divided between to_hit and tohit, at least going by the number of occurrences in header files 09:02:56 <|amethyst> not counting all the tohit_calculators in zap-data.h 09:03:13 add it to checkwhite 09:04:04 converting things to fixedp<>s is more laborious than I expected, I basically have to audit all the code, and keep both versions in parallel to crosscheck 09:04:22 at least for all this insane combat code 09:04:46 <|amethyst> insane combat code? In my Crawl? Preposterous! 09:06:06 return 2 * base_ev_penalty * base_ev_penalty * (450 - skill(SK_ARMOUR, 10)) 09:06:06 * scale / (5 * (strength() + 3)) / 450; 09:06:23 ... 09:07:10 <|amethyst> In that specific case, the formula came from careful tuning, with maybe not-so-careful attention to rounding issues 09:07:36 <|amethyst> at least, there were graphs involved 09:07:45 heh 09:08:38 <|amethyst> ah 09:08:42 <|amethyst> the 450s were there already 09:08:45 what's up with the 450 constant? 09:08:53 ah 09:09:06 <|amethyst> %git a04a6eba 09:09:06 07galehar02 * 0.13-a0-453-ga04a6eb: New formula for the effect of strength on AEVP. 10(4 years, 6 months ago, 5 files, 40+ 56-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a04a6eba42c9 09:09:14 <|amethyst> is not where the 450 comes from 09:09:48 <|amethyst> but is the origin of the current formula 09:09:49 <|amethyst> oh 09:09:57 <|amethyst> I see it's been rearranged since then 09:10:45 <|amethyst> the 450 is to give a multiplier like (45 - skill)/45 so it gets cut to 40% at max skill 09:11:17 <|amethyst> but now that other things are sitting between the two 450s that's less clear 09:11:29 I see 09:12:23 well, this is something that should be clearer with fixedp 09:12:48 can just write ((45 - skill<100>(SK_ARMOUR)) / 45) 09:13:57 <|amethyst> aha 09:14:05 <|amethyst> %git d58ed0a 09:14:05 07elliptic02 * 0.13-a0-463-gd58ed0a: Fix rounding details in new formulas. 10(4 years, 6 months ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d58ed0aed855 09:14:15 <|amethyst> it was rearranged precisely to deal with rounding issues 09:14:54 <|amethyst> since the division had been happening before scaling in the original version 09:15:04 <|amethyst> "original" meaning galehar's 09:15:07 yeah 09:18:02 wonder how much doing *all* the division last really matters in this case, I'll have to check 09:18:10 since that principle still applies 09:18:17 to fixedp 09:19:28 hmm, I wonder if mantis non-logged in users share a single filter setting? 09:20:52 It was all ok until recent time. 09:21:29 well, nothing about mantis has changed 09:21:52 in fact it seems to be more or less impossible for us to change anything to do with mantis 09:22:04 <|amethyst> a little bit has changed at least, but nothing relevant that I know 09:22:12 well, the captcha 09:22:20 <|amethyst> unless N*pkin upgraded it at the same time as switching the captcha 09:22:40 Mantis bug 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11264 by Yermak 09:22:43 <|amethyst> but probably not, because that doesn't look like new mantis afaik 09:22:50 still on the 2009 version 09:22:56 <|amethyst> yeah, just saw that 09:22:58 <|amethyst> 1.1.8 09:23:11 <|amethyst> So I'm not sure what would have changed 09:23:53 btw |amethyst: did you see https://github.com/crawl/crawl/issues/625 ? 09:24:02 not sure if my answer there is right 09:25:02 <|amethyst> advil: yeah 09:25:16 this thing looks totally legit 09:25:24 <|amethyst> making it go around monsters too is unworkable because how is the game supposed to know whether you want to hit the monster or not 09:25:53 <|amethyst> and it's definitely intentional that we try different paths to avoid hitting walls 09:26:16 <|amethyst> I know at one point things like statues were treated the way monsters are instead of walls 09:26:26 <|amethyst> I don't remember for certain if that was fixed, but I think so 09:26:42 ok, sounds like I was on track 09:27:08 I mean, they are right that the behavior with fireball targetter in that exact situation is weird, but I don't see a way out 09:28:03 <|amethyst> I guess you could possibly do the more permissive pathing when the beam would be guaranteed to not pass through the monster 09:28:08 <|amethyst> like fireball 09:28:25 yeah, true 09:28:30 <|amethyst> but for things like throw flame, you often want to aim at a particular spot beyond the intended target 09:28:46 <|amethyst> to maximize your chances of hitting something useful if you miss the primary target 09:29:01 <|amethyst> in which case, pathing around that monster would hurt the player 09:29:08 I suppose it could go by spell: for fireball it is better to have paths that go around things, for throw flame (etc) it is not? 09:29:28 but I wasn't that into the idea of special casing fireball. maybe if it could be more principled. 09:29:31 <|amethyst> I wouldn't want to go by spell 09:29:38 <|amethyst> because it's not just spells 09:29:45 <|amethyst> it would have to be based on some property of the beam 09:30:37 <|amethyst> there's the question of whether the added complexity would be worth it 09:32:20 <|amethyst> and of whether someone could add that to beam.cc without introducing serious bugs :) 09:33:07 It's also not strictly better for fireball to go around monsters. 09:33:29 .mmm 09:33:32 .mmm 09:33:34 @... 09:34:35 I think the behavior I have in mind would always add strictly more targeting options, even in that case 09:34:54 right now iirc you can only target the empty spaces or the diagonally adjacent monster? 09:34:55 Hmm, wouldn't it be too complex then? 09:36:13 to implement, probably...the behavior that player wanted would let you target the NW monster as well as the S and SE monster 09:36:27 let's say @ is at (0,0). If you target 'm' at (3,1) then fireball will hit all 'm's. 09:36:58 if fireball targeting went around monsters, it would be impossible to hit them all 09:38:02 oh I see...in that case you'd be able to directly target (2,1) for the same effect 09:38:21 like you would if the 1,1 monster were a wall instead 09:38:21 you're right 09:38:35 so it might actually be less confusing for the user b/c you don't have to use weird targets to accomplish stuff like that 09:39:21 hmm, now I can't think of the case 09:39:54 Maybe it's strictly better indeed 09:40:00 you're right that all the less obvious paths that currently go through monsters before the selected target would behave differently, on this hypothetical behavior 09:40:21 I hadn't thought about those 09:40:45 Btw, did you know you could through fireballs deep into the fog? I still don't know if it's intentional feature or not. 09:41:11 If you cast fireball with shift-dir it will fly un the direction until it hits something. 09:41:25 throw, not through* 09:41:35 you can't target in fog directly though I guess? 09:42:09 yes, game won't allow to stretch fireball target beyond visible area 09:43:07 I'm not sure that it's unintentional, at least 09:43:20 it's only relatively recently that things like fire storm out of los have been nerfed 09:43:35 and I suspect that behavior is or was intended for missiles? 09:43:45 not really sure though 09:45:31 Aren't missiles the reason it was introduced? 09:45:52 yeah 09:46:26 I'm not even entirely sure how aware I was just as a player that non-. targeting worked for spells 09:46:52 (as a dev I definitely didn't actively know that but I'm not shocked) 09:47:08 It's just nice to be able to throw them in certain direction. And the fact it goes into the fog is just natural. It would be weird imo if it stopped at visible range, 09:47:42 At the same time you can't do this fireball trick with LRD for example. 09:47:56 it just move cursor three tiles further in the direction 09:48:00 moves* 09:49:49 hmm, it looks like the fireball explodes at the end of range (6) at least 09:49:58 I was worried for a sec from your description that it didn't even do that 09:52:23 I'd file the bug be that the case long ago then (: 09:52:47 heh 09:54:23 I think it's fine given that 09:55:55 since fog scrolls are fairly limited it is a secret tech of sorts but is maybe a bit desperate, and one that drains resources (unless you have the cloak I guess) 09:56:12 plus fireball is very noisy 09:56:25 so it doesn't seem obviously op to me 09:56:35 Well, I don't remember myself reading fog scroll specifically for that reason 09:57:12 I always did that through fog that was created by other means. 09:57:25 ah 09:57:40 I suppose it would synergize well with water-produced fog 10:32:06 Can someone help me? I logged in CBRO server but I can't play on trunk because it says that I am "playing in the current save", but it bugged and I can't access it at all. 10:32:49 I logged off, and logged on again but it doesn't help at anything 10:34:54 that should time out after a few minutes 10:41:08 If I were to change Menu::set_maxpagesize() to something more like set_max_options_per_page(), would anyone complain? 10:43:00 It's only used to prevent multiple identical hotkeys in a few places, and the whole concept of a menu's maximum page height is broken 10:45:00 Actually a better interface would be set_prevent_hotkey_reuse() or some variation thereof 11:18:11 On the other hand, perhaps I should just make that dependent on MF_NOSELECT? 11:18:35 I.e. if you can select options, automatically paginate, otherwise, who cares 11:23:05 wow, how did I not realize about template argument deduction yet 11:40:12 When monster spawning is removed, do we still spawn OOD monsters if the player sticks around too long? 11:40:51 spawning over time, i mean 11:43:59 no 11:44:02 %git 1d58f9a54f8a19b7a29d80 11:44:02 07gammafunk02 * 0.21-a0-254-g1d58f9a: Remove monster spawns over time in most branches 10(7 weeks ago, 1 file, 29+ 120-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1d58f9a54f8a 11:46:40 Not worried about players hanging about too long? I guess there's no reason to, even for mummies 11:48:03 Fair enough 11:48:19 yeah, I think that's not a bit worry 11:50:41 there was a lot of discussion about clocks and such in this channel when gf was working on that, but I didn't follow all the details 11:50:53 it's in the logs somewhere though 13:10:58 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-400-g417d9d2 (34) 13:12:45 New branch created: pull/631 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/631 13:12:45 03Aidan Holm02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/631 * 0.21-a0-401-g50bc632: Fix formatted_scroller::line_down() returning wrong boolean 10(13 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/50bc632ac81f 15:18:17 Does anyone know where the code that drives http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/overview.html is? I have a feature I'd like to implement for the players page. 15:38:31 <|amethyst> ddubois: https://github.com/crawl/scoring/ but it is barely maintained 15:38:45 <|amethyst> ddubois: last commit was a year and a half ago 16:28:39 -!- molotove2 is now known as molotove 17:30:09 03Aidan Holm02 {advil} 07* 0.21-a0-401-g0b6bec4: Fix formatted_scroller::line_down() returning wrong boolean 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0b6bec4d0b7e 18:08:44 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.21-a0-401-g0b6bec4 (34) 18:20:31 The build has errored. (master - 0b6bec4 #8852 : Aidan Holm): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/290643285 18:21:41 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-401-g0b6bec4 (34) 19:17:29 murky (L1 HuWn) (D:1) 19:17:56 !crashlog 19:18:06 17988. murky, XL1 HuWn, T:0 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/murky/crash-murky-20171020-231728.txt 19:22:28 a turn 0 0.16 crash, huh 19:53:33 lua bug i imagine 19:53:46 like, not necessarily a bug in our lua, but possibly in player lua 19:54:16 since they were fussing around with the lua console, and printed a lot of messages 19:54:56 speaking of turn 0 crashes, i saw a good nethack TAS a few weeks ago 19:55:14 wherein the player dies before getting to take any actions 19:55:18 <|amethyst> yeah 19:55:46 <|amethyst> ais523 19:56:27 <|amethyst> who's now on the DevTeam 19:57:24 <|amethyst> He submitted it to tasvideos but they rejected it because they weren't convinced by his argument that dying should count as a win :) http://tasvideos.org/3080S.html 19:57:56 heh 19:57:58 <|amethyst> "DarkKobold: This is clearly a funny concept, and probably the best April Fools submission of 2011... but it really doesn't follow the rules of the site" 19:58:23 kobolds can be so cruel sometimes 19:59:29 <|amethyst> he was working for a while on an actual TAS but he never finished it and I think deleted it 19:59:44 <|amethyst> oh 19:59:55 <|amethyst> wait, it's just that this is a gitorious URL 20:01:11 oh yes, i heard about the win TAS on roguelike radio. didn't realise it was the same person 20:01:21 <|amethyst> oh, did he finish it? 20:01:37 no, this was while it was in progress 20:01:44 <|amethyst> http://nethack4.org/latest/nethack-tas-tools/turnbyturn.txt 20:03:02 <|amethyst> it goes up to turn 888/2006 20:03:39 is 2006 some kind of known endgame turncount? 20:03:41 <|amethyst> this video goes up to 754 20:03:46 <|amethyst> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWgmkQdA1fc 20:03:47 I recall that you can't enter quest until 2000 20:04:32 6 turns after entering quest is a mighty fast endgame 20:04:43 <|amethyst> he has a plan for that, let me find it 20:05:22 http://nethack4.org/latest/nethack-tas-tools/t2000timings.txt 20:05:24 <|amethyst> http://nethack4.org/pastebin/2006-turn-plan.txt 20:05:36 <|amethyst> oh, down to 2003 20:05:37 <|amethyst> wow 20:37:48 -!- rc_zzz is now known as rchandra 22:01:11 has anybody heard from zibudo? 22:01:30 did you email him, rchandra? 22:02:16 I emailed the admin@jorgrun.rocks, that got returned 22:02:26 rchandra: you mean it bounced? 22:03:05 yeah, "Sorry, we were unable to deliver your message to the following address. : Unable to deliver message after multiple retries, giving up." 22:03:20 ok, I'll email him with the address I have 22:03:38 thanks 22:03:50 !isonline cjr console 22:04:00 4 days, 4 hours, 34 minutes, 49 seconds since last activity (cjr console) 22:05:14 on an unrelated note, is opening a nonruned door to a death knight band normal on d6? 22:05:45 it's a pretty nasty ood spawn at that depth 22:07:59 <|amethyst> that's max OOD depth now for a non-vault placement, but it's possible 22:08:06 ah, nice 22:09:25 <|amethyst> They're D:11-D:21, and now that there are no super-OODs, the OOD range is +1 to +5 (equal chance of each) 22:10:56 and now that there are no timer spawns, does each level get some OODs or just a chance? 22:17:16 <|amethyst> !learn edit out_of_depth[1] s/The maximum.*even then\./OOD monsters come from between 1 and 5 levels deeper. The chance for a non-vault monster to be OOD is approximately 6.4% (4.8% on D:2 and 0% on D:1)./ 22:17:16 out of depth[1/1]: Crawl sometimes generates unusually hard monsters to keep you on your toes. OOD monsters come from between 1 and 5 levels deeper. The chance for a non-vault monster to be OOD is approximately 6.4% (4.8% on D:2 and 0% on D:1). Other times when something seems overly powerful, it's just a vault -- e.g. death yak guarding the lair. 22:18:25 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please. 22:18:26 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??servers for instructions. | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: http://termcast.develz.org - ??footv for instructions | See also ##crawl-offtopic 22:19:18 fr: simplify that so it doesn't fail in >50% of cases 22:19:49 <|amethyst> yeah 22:20:11 can just do a x_chance_in_y (6,100) or (7,100) and change the fuzz to always return 1-5 22:20:16 <|amethyst> would people be okay with changing that to 6% or 7%, or should I use a larger denominator 22:20:23 <|amethyst> ha 22:20:31 yeah you could approximate it closer if you wanted 22:24:49 <|amethyst> ah, that random_range has an nrolls so it wouldn't be quite the same anyway 22:24:49 oh, it's not flat? 22:24:49 <|amethyst> nope 22:24:49 it make more extreme OOD less common 22:24:49 <|amethyst> it's the average of two rolls 22:24:49 because the things you can get from 5 levels OOD are pretty spooky 22:24:49 ah 22:24:49 <|amethyst> so I'm going to leave it alone 22:24:49 could probably get a similar model with a little effort but I guess its nontrivial 22:24:49 still not sure why it was implemented quite like that 22:24:49 crawlcode... 22:24:49 <|amethyst> someone bug elliptic 22:24:49 <|amethyst> gammafunk: I bet it used to be possible to fuzz negatively 22:24:49 hrm 22:24:49 you get a weaker than usual monster? but then it's not OOD 22:24:56 <|amethyst> but it's random! 22:25:06 well I guess depending on how you interperate out-of-depth it would be still 22:25:07 <|amethyst> and technically it is out of its depth 22:25:09 <|amethyst> heh 22:25:35 so you can remember what it's like to fight rats when you're on D:6 22:25:43 they probably still spawn on d:6 for all I know 22:26:20 rats are only in depth through D:3 22:26:38 jackals stay in dpeth through D:11 though! 22:27:19 I've had a few epic D:11 jackal fights in my day 22:28:12 <|amethyst> hm 22:28:23 <|amethyst> looks like it's been that way for a long time 22:28:32 <|amethyst> %git 74c498a2 22:28:32 07greensnark02 * 0.3-a0-642-g74c498a: Beogh balancing: - Cut Beogh's racial armour bonus. - Reduced weapon damage bonus by 50% at low piety. - Increased smiting food and piety cost. The piety cost may still be too low given how easy it is to gain Beogh piety. 10(10 years ago, 9 files, 112+ 66-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/74c498a25a9e 22:28:47 <|amethyst> that's the commit that introduced the "roll but only use positive numbers" 22:28:55 <|amethyst> before that it was just "add a random number" 22:29:15 <|amethyst> I wasn't paying attention to see when it became a 2-die roll, let me check again 22:29:40 <|amethyst> %git 82a29029 22:29:40 07greensnark02 * 0.4-a0-144-g82a2902: Adjust monster generation difficulty to be closer to 0.2 averages, but with more variance. Early monster difficulty should be less brutal now. 10(10 years ago, 1 file, 5+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/82a29029599d 22:30:46 <|amethyst> in the first commit it was an 8-die roll 22:31:57 I'll have to remember to take a look at that code and see if we can't simplify it 22:32:10 this reminded me how I wanted to adjust D spawn lists to not have things like D:11 jackals 22:32:21 <|amethyst> the current fuzz range comes from 22:32:27 <|amethyst> %git 5c94ddf5 22:32:27 07greensnark02 * 0.7.0-a0-148-g5c94ddf: Reduce moderate OOD level fuzz to +5 from +7 (dpeg). 10(8 years ago, 1 file, 24+ 25-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5c94ddf5a5d7 22:32:30 quit stealing my ideas gammafunk 22:32:46 you've never had an idea in your life! 22:33:08 <|amethyst> hmm 22:33:21 what I want to do is also remove the weighting on MONS_NO_MONSTER 22:33:30 and if need be adjust the monster placement by depth 22:34:00 seems like we could have a per-branch monster count that's mostly a standard value, maybe lower/higher in a few places? 22:34:12 hrm, I wonder how spider manages to place so many monsters actually 22:34:20 <|amethyst> bands? 22:34:24 ah, yes 22:34:26 probably so 22:34:27 <|amethyst> yeah, I was never happy with just replacing popcorn with nothing 22:35:27 <|amethyst> at least, not in the MONS_NO_MONSTER implementation where it applies to certain level ranges and makes it hard to know your actual monster gen rate 22:35:27 -!- illusion is now known as Guest17830 22:35:27 that will take a bit of work, probably with those spreadsheets to see just what the per-level weights look like 22:35:27 yeah, and another big annoyance is in vaults 22:35:27 <|amethyst> I guess arguably we should try to standardise XP rather than number of monsters 22:35:34 8 and 9 roll nothing way too often 22:35:53 which I think is do to NO_MONSTER occupying weights but maybe it's another issue 22:36:34 <|amethyst> yeah, that kind of thing is the other problem with MONS_NO_MONSTER 22:36:38 if 8 and 9 vaults are too common we could just downweights those vaults a bit or adjust vaults, but designing a vault is more difficult when 8 or 9 spawn nothing 22:36:50 well, it can still spawn popcorn so I guess the fundamental issue will always be there 22:37:17 <|amethyst> could narrow monster ranges 22:37:25 <|amethyst> it means less variation within a level, though 22:37:39 so that 8 or 9 can't roll too low? 22:37:54 <|amethyst> so that D:8 monsters don't have so much overlap with D:11 monsters 22:38:01 er, nm, it's not even a "roll" is it, it's just "calculate a new depths, choose from that" 22:38:07 *depth 22:38:16 <|amethyst> because if it rolls +3 levels and that level and this one have monsters in common 22:38:24 <|amethyst> that would look like "it didn't do anything" 22:39:15 yeah maybe it's not easilly fixable, but having 8 or 9 not roll no monster would at least be nice 22:39:33 and I suppose that also extends to 1 22:39:39 or 0, sorry 22:39:48 what's up rchandra 22:39:48 Gramm: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 22:39:52 !messages 22:39:52 (1/1) rchandra said (3d 1h 4s ago): I can't connect to CJR console, and mail isn't being delivered to admin@jorgrun.rocks. advil said you might be able to contact zibudo and/or admin CJR? 22:39:58 oh, I emailed zibudo at the other address I have 22:40:01 mk 22:40:05 and CCed the admin one to see if it bounced 22:40:12 Gramm: the problem is cjr is refusing auth over ssh 22:40:21 webtiles works fine, but console access doesn't work 22:41:07 rejects credentials with or without the ssh key 22:41:07 <|amethyst> and apparently refusing email :) 22:41:07 let me see if I got a bounce 22:41:07 grammafunk: yo 22:41:07 I don't see a bounce yet 22:41:07 ZiBuDo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 22:41:07 there's the man himself 22:41:07 !messages 22:41:07 (1/1) rc_zzz said (3d 13h 45m 15s ago): can't ssh to CJR, and mail isn't being delivered to admin@jorgun.rocks 22:41:07 hes been summoned 22:41:07 got some shit virus 22:41:07 gotta nuke it 22:41:09 due to my verbal explanation being poor 22:41:09 beware, mortals! 22:41:09 xd 22:41:22 cjr got a virus? 22:41:24 yea 22:41:27 bitcoin miner 22:41:27 just noticed 22:41:30 seems recent 22:41:31 dang 22:41:35 <|amethyst> shit virus like amoebic dysentery? 22:41:41 not that shit 22:41:48 <|amethyst> that's not a virus, I know 22:42:01 cjr got infected with a paramecium! 22:42:21 maybe those can't actually "infect" other organism 22:42:25 but I like the word paramecium 22:42:40 yo question 22:42:48 how much user data should i tranfser for a reinstall 22:42:54 should i just move the userdb with password 22:43:03 i think i have to ruin current games 22:43:08 <|amethyst> ZiBuDo: also the logfiles/milestones 22:43:13 that it? 22:43:20 db and logs etc 22:43:24 <|amethyst> ZiBuDo: it would be nice to preserve the ttyrecs somewhere 22:43:28 hmm 22:43:33 those are huge 22:43:37 <|amethyst> ZiBuDo: yeah 22:43:51 can those be transfered to shallot? 22:44:05 <|amethyst> ZiBuDo: greensnark might be able to let you upload them to shallot but that would be a wait 22:44:07 I mean, probably they can, but would that be a reasonable solution is my question 22:44:26 <|amethyst> depends on how quickly ZiBuDo wants to fix it 22:44:39 <|amethyst> or johnstein has permission to do it himself, I think 22:44:50 <|amethyst> since CBRO runs out of disk space fairly often 22:44:52 right 22:45:02 gonna determine size of ttyrecs 22:45:37 ^status 22:45:37 39 Crawlers. CBRO disk usage=95% (135GB) | RAM usage=41% (4GB)| uptime/CPU= 22:45:36 up 232 days, 3:23, 2 users, load average: 0.68, 0.71, 0.64 (4 Cores) http://status.berotato.org 22:45:51 <|amethyst> ZiBuDo: saves aren't that big, the only problem would be providing all the old versions if you're using the usual setup with non-forced transfers 22:46:02 hmm 22:49:30 i can dl the versions i currently support 22:49:30 <|amethyst> ZiBuDo: the binaries get to be huge too (you can strip them to reduce space nearly 90% though) 22:49:30 <|amethyst> s/too/though/ 22:49:30 stripping binaries is key secret admin tech 22:49:30 <|amethyst> ZiBuDo: Ideal solution is to copy the whole chroot, but of course if it's the chroot that got rooted that would be a problem 22:49:30 and deleting the crawl-git* binaries in ./source 22:49:30 I think one complication with trying to support those old versions is that for trunk it's per-commit, right? 22:49:30 <|amethyst> gammafunk: well, per-build-on-that-server 22:49:30 yeah 22:49:30 not per-commit, per-build 22:49:30 I do have permission to upload to shalott. not sure if it's limited to the cbro dir. I don't think I am limited 22:49:30 <|amethyst> they get cleaned if there are no saved games, but 22:49:30 <|amethyst> most days someone starts up a game and then never comes back to that server 22:49:30 <|amethyst> I suspect "most days", I haven't actually counted 22:49:34 if you can transfer those ttyrecs, one of us with commit access can update the sequell config easilly 22:49:40 so that footv will find them 22:49:53 footv+sequell 22:50:25 <|amethyst> ZiBuDo: also, be sure to shut webtiles down before transferring the logfiles and milestones 22:50:45 <|amethyst> ZiBuDo: so the copy doesn't miss anything 22:51:02 he would want to copy all files in dirs like this, basically? https://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/meta/0.20/ 22:51:06 <|amethyst> yeah 22:51:18 <|amethyst> oh, also rcfiles and morgues 22:51:23 yes 22:51:44 &rc . trunk cjr 22:51:44 malcolmrose (L24 CeAK) (D:15) 22:51:44 Webtiles server stopped. 22:51:45 grarg12345 (L3 DDEE) (D:2) 22:51:46 EyeBeat (L6 MiFi) (D:4) 22:51:47 animenmaster (L15 FoFi) (Lair:6) 22:51:54 rip animenmaster 22:51:59 http://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/rcfiles/crawl-git/gammafunk.rc 22:52:00 <|amethyst> My words have power! 22:52:09 neil destroyed anime... 22:52:10 getting rc files, morgues, logs, the site 22:52:51 <|amethyst> gammafunk: I totally destroyed like half a season of Ranma a week when I was a freshman 22:53:15 <|amethyst> actually, probably a whole season a week 22:53:27 that's the guy who changes into a girl sometimes, right 22:53:32 <|amethyst> yes 22:54:06 so where are we on the saving the ttyrecs? 22:54:22 saving everything but the morgue atm 22:54:26 ttyrec* 22:54:29 i have the morgue 22:55:14 well 22:55:18 <|amethyst> gammafunk: based on hot and cold water, so maybe ripped off from Turbo Teen, who knows 22:55:30 ah, didn't realized it was water and temperature 22:55:37 johnstein: would you be around to transfer some ttyrecs? 22:56:06 I think you'd have to give access to johnstein who could maybe transfer them, but johnstein might not have time right now 22:56:07 in a couple hours probably. have to go for a bit 22:56:55 ZiBuDo: can you wait to try the ttyrec transfer later? or will that not work 22:57:02 eh it's only 32GB 22:57:08 i can move to my external 22:57:17 awesome, thanks a lot ZiBuDo 22:57:24 once i do that i will upgrade the server since it is on ubuntu 14 22:57:36 just think of how you're preserving a record of gammafunk's games, which is a critical learning resource for the crawl community 22:57:37 probably finish it tomorrow 22:57:41 lmao 22:57:53 thanks, ZiBuDo, Gramm 22:57:54 delete those and winrates would probably fall 50% 22:58:06 no problem happy to be extremely helpful 22:58:07 ^ 22:58:17 !lg gammafunk won / @gammafunk 22:58:18 74/74 games for gammafunk (won): N=74/74 (100.00%) 22:58:21 pretty good 22:58:22 see? 22:58:38 !lm * death / cat 22:58:49 !kw cat 22:58:49 Keyword: cat => fe-- 22:59:05 heh, people hate typing felid I guess 22:59:07 !kw felid 22:59:08 Built-in: felid => race=felid 22:59:19 !kw fe-- 22:59:20 Built-in: fe-- => crace=Felid 22:59:25 think they prefer it to typing fe and getting the 'which?' 22:59:44 well felid the kw exists 22:59:48 it's even a built-in! 23:00:53 but typing cat is shorter 23:00:53 I don't remember if there's a good kw for --hu or he-- 23:00:53 !kw doc 23:00:53 !kw human 23:00:53 Keyword: doc => --he 23:00:53 Built-in: human => race=human 23:00:53 !kw pyro 23:00:53 Keyword: pyro => --fe 23:00:53 90s limit exceeded: killed !lm * death / cat 23:00:53 !kw man 23:00:53 Keyword: man => hu-- 23:00:53 you can just use the species name 23:00:53 it's always a built-in kw 23:00:53 never 23:00:53 !kw healer 23:00:53 Built-in: healer => cls=healer 23:00:53 keep in mind that rchandra *insists* on reglyphing death cobs to % 23:00:53 can you believe that?!!! 23:01:15 honestly I had forgotten that was a reglyph, it's just so natural 23:01:29 oh great, this royal jelly is attacking me now 23:02:03 maybe I can convince to have neil make a transporter vault 23:02:14 <|amethyst> when food is removed, they can have the % glyph again 23:02:17 puts you into the middle of a room where you can move 23:02:23 and you're surrounded by % 23:02:29 some are royal jelly, some are death cobs 23:02:36 hrm, but you could move onto the royal jellies 23:02:51 there must be a way... 23:03:19 <|amethyst> (until food is removed, does anyone want to rebase and push food-unification?) 23:03:24 I don't know why neil has to be the one to do this, but I'm reminded of the one zot vault he made 23:03:26 if crawl was a _real_ roguelike you could just try to eat the cobs with e and a direction 23:03:33 haha 23:03:40 <|amethyst> rchandra: hydra form has to have *some* advantages 23:04:31 :) 23:05:03 Webtiles server started. 23:05:29 |amethyst: although I want to continue discussing the forward-progress thing (xp debt) and lasty was going to try at least making a branch with a trap-like forward progress thing 23:05:41 it's probably too ambitious to get either of those fully merged this release 23:05:48 I have other things I want to do 23:06:48 so maybe food reuinification would be a good step for now 23:06:48 <|amethyst> there are also various things that could be done with corpses and chunks 23:06:48 only reason I sort of didn't want to is that I think we are going to move to foodless; perhaps it will take more than 0.22 in the end and we don't have an implementation 23:07:36 yeah there are various adjustments and tweaks, but I personally don't care for food as the clock since it's essentually needless interface (with all this code to 'simplify' it); but it's true we could just keep the food system and tweak it 23:08:11 if we do merge unification, would be very nice to get that "eat purple chunks while engorged" thing 23:08:15 not sure if that's already in the branch? 23:08:20 <|amethyst> it's not but 23:08:28 <|amethyst> it sounds like removing purple chunks had more support 23:08:32 yes 23:08:49 <|amethyst> auto_eat_chunks + a hypothetical post-unification auto_eat_rations would remove most of the interface burden, but 23:09:31 <|amethyst> I do agree with you that that is a lot of interface and interface bypass 23:09:39 yeah 23:09:46 I know probably I, elliptic, Lasty all support removing purple chunks; I know you had more supported keeping them, but I'm not sure how anyone else felt 23:09:54 amalloy, advil, MarvinPA 23:09:58 <|amethyst> johnstein wanted to keep them 23:10:03 he's not a dev!!! 23:10:18 <|amethyst> I've got to build my team somewhere! 23:10:30 ok, but then I'll recruit hellmonk... 23:10:36 rip everything at that point 23:10:49 but yeah, would be nice to actually hear from others 23:10:55 <|amethyst> yeah, why don't we hire hellmonk to remove food for us? 23:11:09 I was trying to make inroads! 23:11:14 heh, well he just really removed it and went with a forward-progress thing that....crazy 23:11:21 Brannock was around the other day and he was a big proponent of recent mutation changes 23:11:45 not sure how much he wants to weigh in about purple chunks but just would be good to hear from a couple other people 23:13:19 I like the purple chunks since it meshes better with the way I happen to play the mutation game since !mut are so random. even with the slight adjustment 23:13:19 I'm in favor of either eliminating purple chunks or removing the engorgement restriction on them 23:13:19 the current situation isn't very good 23:13:19 <|amethyst> I use them because they give me a way to get a net increase (on average) in my number of mutations 23:13:19 well those are the only two options being considered, Brannock 23:13:19 yep 23:13:19 <|amethyst> which I like as a player, but that's not necessarily saying it's good for the game 23:13:19 to |amethyst. !mut basically rerolls a random set of mutations 23:13:19 right, I suppose we could increase mutation potion drops but we have been adjusting those downward 23:13:19 <|amethyst> johnstein: on average 23:13:19 the idea behind new !mut is, once you're in, you're in 23:13:19 no way to opt out 23:13:19 you can reshuffle if you don't like the set 23:13:26 Brannock: which is cool. cept it's not really a game 23:13:28 hrm, makes me wonder if we could actually have beneficial mutation potion that gave you more mutations than the old did, or something 23:13:33 but that's more a loot item 23:13:47 not really addressing this fundamental thing of whether access to lots of mutations chances is even good 23:14:01 that's kind of the big disagreement people might have 23:14:02 just make !mut sometimes give you more good or fewer bad mutations sometimes 23:14:11 <|amethyst> johnstein: it does already 23:14:19 I suppose so 23:14:23 <|amethyst> ??potion of mutation 23:14:23 potion of mutation[1/2]: In 0.20 !mutation strips 2-6 (2-4 in 0.21) mutations, adds 1-3 random mutations, then adds one good mutation... in that order. It takes the spawn weights of all three previous potions, and thus is now the tied for the sixth most common potion in the game. 23:14:38 <|amethyst> oh, right, 2-6 now 23:14:42 haha, the potion ranking 23:14:51 <|amethyst> oh, sorry 23:14:57 <|amethyst> 2-4 now 23:15:23 <|amethyst> either way, you can get 2 net mutations from it (or lose 2 net mutations) 23:15:35 you can get a lot of muts by going xom or J, so big mut sets are available (but limited) even if you cut purple chunks 23:15:56 I'd be strongly favored towards at the very least removing the engorgement restriction. it feels very bad to wait out hunger to eat purple 23:16:13 Brannock: I started working that, then Life happened 23:16:13 <|amethyst> Brannock: johnstein had been working on that at one point 23:16:15 yeah I don't think we're considering not changing the status quo 23:16:29 I have a bunch of commits adding much needed docstrings to the eating code 23:16:37