00:00:18 <gammafunk> |amethyst: don't know if you know this, but if you put only the commit short hash in a commit message, it's auto-linked in github
00:00:45 <gammafunk> I should say if you put any commit short hash
00:01:23 <gammafunk> only mention because I saw you put 0.21-a0-253-g6b34986 instead of something like 6b34986
00:01:30 <|amethyst> ah
00:01:38 <|amethyst> that's silly
00:01:46 <gammafunk> the hash linking?
00:02:00 <|amethyst> that it doesn't recognise \d-g\x+
00:02:03 <gammafunk> it should be able to make that link even with ...yeah
00:02:44 <gammafunk> well I'm glad that bug is fixed
00:02:52 <gammafunk> I think it's been reported on every website by now
00:09:20 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-283-g622b906 (34)
00:30:01 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.21-a0-283-g622b906 (34)
01:17:59 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir
01:20:16 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-283-g622b906 (34)
01:56:40 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-283-g622b906
02:24:22 <gammafunk> !tell |amethyst Here's a writeup of that xp debt idea. Let me know if you see problems with that or other items on the page, and I'll be updating it more tomorrow: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/wiki/0.21-Development-and-Release-Plan#second-idea-xp-debt
02:24:22 <Sequell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let |amethyst know.
02:54:27 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-283-g622b906
03:22:31 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-283-g622b906 (34)
03:30:31 -!- n1 is now known as n420
03:31:17 -!- n420 is now known as n|
03:32:56 -!- gammafunk is now known as n1
03:33:20 -!- ProzacElf is now known as gammafunk
03:33:21 -!- n1 is now known as Guest83378
03:33:41 -!- Guest83378 is now known as ProzacElf
03:34:01 -!- gammafunk is now known as beefaroni
03:34:09 -!- ProzacElf is now known as gammafunk
03:34:15 -!- beefaroni is now known as ProzacElf
03:34:23 <gammafunk> phew
07:18:05 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
08:16:29 -!- yesno__ is now known as yesno
08:16:54 -!- nht_ is now known as nht
10:23:16 <advil> gammafunk: nice move porting things to the github wiki
10:28:31 <advil> is the idea to just switch over to it entirely?
10:29:10 <advil> where by "switch" I mean, stop mostly failing to use the doku wiki and start using the github wiki
10:34:18 <advil> (at least, I mean that w.r.t me)
11:54:14 -!- Bammboobies_ is now known as Bammboo
12:31:58 <gammafunk> advil: seems like it might be a good idea
12:32:30 <gammafunk> we can move older pages in as ResT and clean them up a bit
13:24:36 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-283-g622b906 (34)
13:40:01 <johnstein> !lg . won s=turns
13:40:02 <Sequell> 12 games for johnstein (won): 71275, 78295, 91483, 95204, 99576, 99906, 106589, 130533, 133325, 136302, 141271, 160412
13:40:33 <johnstein> wonder if XP debt would have prevented me from winning any of my high turn games
13:40:58 <johnstein> I definitely  wasn't scumming, just wasn't that good
13:41:35 <johnstein> always healing up to full XP after every battle and auto exploring all floors
13:42:13 <johnstein> and a lot of back and forth in the dungeon looking for stuff and agonizing over equipment decisions
13:56:39 <advil> !lg * won recent nrune=15 s=trunc(turns, 1000) -graph
13:56:41 <Sequell> 2957 games for * (won recent nrune=15): https://shalott.org/graphs/b7176e3fa394a1485fb5d226af64650299abe059.html
13:56:45 <advil> !lg * won recent nrune=3 s=trunc(turns, 1000) -graph
13:56:46 <Sequell> 6534 games for * (won recent nrune=3): https://shalott.org/graphs/c7f2d8fe3a332f834a86e872722687fb2ee830b1.html
14:22:52 <gammafunk> Well, did piety decay prevent you from winning those high turn games?
14:23:34 <gammafunk> All you have to do is kill some monsters to pay it off, after all
14:24:01 <gammafunk> Later on you don't even care too much about the debt until it drains your XL
14:24:14 <gammafunk> since you already have the skills you need and you don't need to gain additional levels
14:24:22 <gammafunk> whereas you always care about piety
14:24:33 <gammafunk> at least for most gods, you do
14:30:25 <Cheibriados> Abilities' description can't be viewed by right-clicking them 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11231 by Yknaar
14:49:18 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
16:49:49 <gammafunk> .gfgk
16:50:20 <Sequell> 229. Neil the Cleaver (L11 VSBe of Trog), splashed with acid on D:8 (gammafunk_cloud_chamber) on 2017-09-24 20:46:41, with 8190 points after 6362 turns and 0:12:03.
16:50:27 <gammafunk> we got em, folks
16:52:33 <gammafunk> oh, I need to fix that door
17:27:37 <rast> ??Eveningstar
17:27:37 <Sequell> eveningstar[1/1]: (maces & flails; -1 acc / 15 dam / 1.5 base delay / 0.7 min delay). The opposite of a morningstar. The highest base damage weapon in the game that you can wield with a shield (unless you are playing Fo).
17:48:48 <Cheibriados> Zot decor, and entries for Swamp and Vaults 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11232 by Skrybe
18:15:23 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.21-a0-283-g622b906 (34)
18:30:51 <ProzacElf> ooo
18:30:55 <ProzacElf> zot decor
18:47:32 <Ge0ff> !tell gammafunk Typos in 0.21 Release Plan: "Zonbuldrok", "doing things excessive things", "status like" (instead of "light"). Also, no "remove Lightli"?
18:47:33 <Sequell> Ge0ff: OK, I'll let gammafunk know.
21:14:18 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.21-a0-284-g14ddf8d: Show MP regen from Etheric Cage on % screen (enarc13) 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 9+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/14ddf8d8ecba
21:15:01 <hellmonk> fr: make the mp regen from etheric cage smooth
21:16:30 <|amethyst> I was thinking of making it a 1/15 chance of MP per AUT
21:16:30 <Sequell> |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
21:16:43 <|amethyst> which works out to about the same as currently (0.5 expected MP per turn)
21:16:59 <|amethyst> that's not smooth though
21:17:24 <hellmonk> I'm just not sure why it needs to be randomized in the first place
21:17:43 <hellmonk> instead of working like all the other sources of mp regen
21:18:25 <|amethyst> yeah, probably you're right, but Maxwell
21:18:42 <|amethyst> likes making wonky items
21:19:12 <hellmonk> 2x contam is pretty wacky imo
21:19:19 <hellmonk> it is 2x contam right?
21:19:51 <|amethyst> yeah, every contam gain gets doubled
21:20:29 <gammafunk> |amethyst: did you get to read over that 'xp debt' idea I sent you in the plan?
21:20:39 <|amethyst> yeah
21:20:47 <gammafunk> I'm still working on parts of said plan, but I think I described that one fully
21:21:02 -!- mikee__ is now known as mikee_
21:21:34 <gammafunk> I think the only main concern Lasty expressed was that it might actually be hard to balance the effect to not be too severe, since it's one "knob" to tweak
21:22:02 <|amethyst> it has to scale based on your level
21:22:05 <gammafunk> yes
21:22:10 <|amethyst> or your total XP I guess
21:22:39 <gammafunk> I didn't try to describe any of the actual math, but obviously that's one thing that would have to be in the decay formula
21:23:04 <gammafunk> but I'll put that in the description
21:23:13 <|amethyst> !lg . won 1
21:23:14 <Sequell> 1/4. Neil the Sorcerer (L27 SpSt of Kikubaaqudgha), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2011-08-31 02:58:26, with 1298440 points after 120543 turns and 10:19:50.
21:23:30 <gammafunk> we've been seeing neil get runes in ##crawl
21:23:31 <|amethyst> as long as 100k-turn 3-rune games are still feasible :)
21:23:35 <gammafunk> it makes us nervious every time
21:23:38 <gammafunk> *nervous
21:24:03 <gammafunk> yeah, since piety decay didn't stop you from ascending that char with reasonable piety
21:24:20 <gammafunk> I would think it wouldn't be too hard to make xp decay similarly reasonable
21:24:27 <gammafunk> !lg neil won 1 x=piety
21:24:28 <Sequell> 1/4. [piety=178] Neil the Sorcerer (L27 SpSt of Kikubaaqudgha), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2011-08-31 02:58:26, with 1298440 points after 120543 turns and 10:19:50.
21:24:31 <gammafunk> pretty good
21:24:41 <gammafunk> obv you needed to spam more corpses
21:24:54 <gammafunk> but you were using twisted res...
21:24:54 <|amethyst> I spammed plenty of corpses
21:24:55 <gammafunk> hrm, didn't that spell work with corpse drop?
21:24:57 <|amethyst> just not so much on the orb run
21:25:17 <|amethyst> it did
21:25:39 <gammafunk> the scarab spell is kinda similar to twisted res
21:25:59 <gammafunk> I guess animate dead is actually the current closest spell to it really
21:26:06 <|amethyst> unless you give me permanent allies that can use stairs, I don't believe you
21:26:15 <gammafunk> but in terms of making nasty hard-hitting things
21:26:19 <gammafunk> ah
21:26:25 <gammafunk> well that is true
21:26:35 <gammafunk> hrm, but could zombies follow you up stairs at the time of that win?
21:26:36 <|amethyst> Beogh is the closest thing I think :)
21:26:43 <gammafunk> I want to say that if twisted res existed today
21:26:52 <gammafunk> it is almost certain they would not be allowed to follow you :)
21:26:53 <|amethyst> no, zombies couldn't take stairs
21:26:57 <|amethyst> but they were permanent
21:27:14 <gammafunk> hrm, well I'd still be they'd be nerfed to be temporary
21:27:23 <gammafunk> and probably not even able to follow stairs
21:27:26 <gammafunk> but who can say
21:27:30 <gammafunk> alternate universe and all that
21:27:57 <|amethyst> but make them fall apart into fresh corpses when they're done
21:28:04 <|amethyst> so it can be used as a walking refrigerator
21:32:28 <|amethyst> "XP debt" needs better theming
21:32:36 <|amethyst> I guess "corruption" is overused
21:34:34 <|amethyst> could call it "hunger" I guess :P
21:36:46 <gammafunk> XP decay?
21:36:51 <gammafunk> decay sounds spooky
21:37:09 <gammafunk> but yeah name and any themeing can happen, I mostly want to hear about how the idea won't work
21:49:48 <hellmonk> !tell johnstein please update hellcrawl when you have a chance
21:49:49 <Sequell> hellmonk: OK, I'll let johnstein know.
22:09:22 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-284-g14ddf8d (34)
22:11:28 <alexjurkiewicz> maxwell's etheric cage might need a buff after seeing that thread
22:11:28 <Sequell> alexjurkiewicz: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
22:11:53 <alexjurkiewicz> 0.5mp/turn vs 0.3mp/turn from "mpregen
22:13:14 <alexjurkiewicz> updating hellmonk
22:13:35 <hellmonk> thanks
22:33:46 <|amethyst> 0.25 from the amulet
22:35:04 <alexjurkiewicz> done
22:36:26 <alexjurkiewicz> hellmonk: maybe from a lore perspective rather than a doom clock there could be something like the dungeon collapsing behind you. So after the doom clock triggers you just periodically take increasing damage
22:36:46 <hellmonk> ramping up to lethal damage I guess
22:37:03 <alexjurkiewicz> hellmonk: severen talking about feeling "herded" by the doom clock feels like a real complaint about how the doom clock makes him feel, rather than about whether the mechanic is good or bad in terms of effectiveness
22:37:21 <hellmonk> yeah I think it is a mindset thing
22:37:43 <gammafunk> what does doom clock do to the player?
22:37:45 <gammafunk> just end the game?
22:37:59 <alexjurkiewicz> agreed. I think clocks are a hard sell. At least personally I hate timed missions in games
22:37:59 <hellmonk> going to leave it in at 3k turns for a little while and see how it goes, 2.5k was evidently too fast
22:37:59 <alexjurkiewicz> gammafunk: summon titans in los
22:38:05 <gammafunk> something you can just kind of think about
22:38:07 <hellmonk> I really think the clock problem is the biggest problem for dcss to solve
22:38:15 <gammafunk> a clock that's like what IA does
22:38:15 <hellmonk> well what it summons is xl dependent
22:38:21 <gammafunk> it's a pretty cool system in that game
22:38:23 <hellmonk> but it is a bunch of durable "fuck you"s
22:38:33 <alexjurkiewicz> gammafunk: what does it do in a nutshell
22:38:40 <gammafunk> you gain shock as you stay on the level (it's quite agressive in IA, but you can obv tone it down)
22:38:58 <gammafunk> shock comes from all sources, just seeing monsters in a turn, even using spells etc, but you don't need to do all this
22:39:02 <gammafunk> but the way it works is
22:39:15 <gammafunk> if you get to 100% shock, you start to gain insanity over the next few turns
22:39:33 <gammafunk> a short timer goes off, then you get an insanity effect that permanently raises your insanity percent
22:39:40 <gammafunk> this insanity does two things
22:39:54 <gammafunk> 1) when you get 100% insanity, you die (something that can happen eventually later in the game
22:40:15 <gammafunk> 2) the insanity effect tives you a permanent "disability" or summons bad things or paralyzes you etc
22:40:24 <gammafunk> the disabilities or phobias as they're called
22:40:29 <gammafunk> are the bigger long-term problem generally
22:40:33 <gammafunk> whereas some are more tactical
22:40:37 <gammafunk> like the summons, the para etc
22:40:49 <gammafunk> one effect is to go into a kind of berserk, for instance
22:41:01 <gammafunk> but the way the clock is built works pretty well
22:41:08 <alexjurkiewicz> So the timer is per-level, with a global reserve you can draw from if you want to spend longer on a level. But you have to trade off using the global reserve now vs later
22:41:19 <alexjurkiewicz> and using the global reserve has a permanent cost
22:41:19 <gammafunk> right, new level = 0% shock
22:41:42 <gammafunk> there is a potion which can also give you 0% shock and fountains can lower it a bit as well, but that's a bit IA-specific
22:41:56 <gammafunk> and yeah eventually near level 30 (the end of the game)
22:42:03 <alexjurkiewicz> a global reserve system does give the player more control. If you find early gnoll castle you can clear it at the cost of having to rush through future levels
22:42:08 <gammafunk> you may have high insanity so one more bout of insanity could end the game
22:42:29 <gammafunk> yeah, it's fairly strategic on a per-level basis that way
22:42:33 <alexjurkiewicz> maybe in hellcrawl mutations could be permanent
22:42:49 <gammafunk> if I go rushing into that room to find loot I may gain a lot of shock either from continuous gain
22:42:52 <hellmonk> if we are looking for a mechanic that players won't hate I bet it isnt that one
22:42:53 <gammafunk> or from seeing monsters
22:43:03 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.21-a0-285-g9d37868: Correct and expand a comment. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9d37868a8d3f
22:43:12 <hellmonk> I feel like the global tradeoff would have potential to put you in unwinnable situations if the per-level clock is actually tight
22:43:12 <gammafunk> yeah there's a kind of love/hate with it to be sure
22:43:13 <alexjurkiewicz> personally I'd love permanent mutations, but yeah maybe that isn't a global feel :p
22:43:24 <hellmonk> but I guess if it isn't too tight then it could work out
22:43:25 <gammafunk> but players like it generally as a system I think
22:43:42 <hellmonk> god it is so much effort to make players not do doomrl shit
22:43:46 <gammafunk> hellmonk: yeah IA does have some unwinnable situations, more so than DCSS, but it also uses this shock pervasively
22:43:57 <hellmonk> yeah I am not saying it's bad in IA
22:44:04 <hellmonk> just not something I want in hellcrawl
22:44:06 <advil> why on earth would the clock be the biggest problem dcss has to solve?
22:44:07 <alexjurkiewicz> so to use hellcrawl numbers, say you have a 2k turn limit per level, and a 10k global pool
22:44:26 <gammafunk> if you simplified the idea and made it less aggressive though, it could be fine
22:44:36 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.21-a0-286-g6fcecc0: Checkwhite (doh) 10(22 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6fcecc069638
22:44:50 <advil> these clock issues don
22:44:50 <alexjurkiewicz> once you start draining the global pool, you gain some slowly bad effect (contam, direct muts, whatever), and once you are out of both pools you get doom summons
22:45:08 <advil> these clock issues have no impact on the vast, vast majority of winning games, imo
22:45:18 <gammafunk> advil: I think it's fair to say that clocks can be tough to design well
22:45:30 <advil> ok, that's true
22:45:44 <gammafunk> I agree for dcss it's not the biggest problem to solve, dcss just has a lot of tedium and (still) no-brainers
22:45:55 <alexjurkiewicz> I wonder how many issues you'd solve if monsters who wander only wandered in a small area, not theoretically across the whole level
22:45:56 <gammafunk> which is not exactly a clock issue (although related certainly)
22:46:00 <advil> ok, that's true also :)
22:46:07 <alexjurkiewicz> that would also solve the doomrl tactic, right
22:46:37 <hellmonk> possibly, though it might open up new problems with abusing ai
22:46:37 <gammafunk> go all in: if the game detects you scumming, it deletes itself locally, of if it's online, your account gets locked out
22:46:40 <gammafunk> that'll teach em
22:46:52 <advil> !lg * won recent nrune=15 s=trunc(turns, 1000) -graph
22:46:54 <Sequell> 2959 games for * (won recent nrune=15): https://shalott.org/graphs/b7176e3fa394a1485fb5d226af64650299abe059.html
22:47:04 <advil> the outliers are just so, so few
22:47:04 <gammafunk> what is trunc() again?
22:47:14 <advil> it just cuts off the last 3 digits
22:47:19 <advil> bins by 1000 basically
22:47:34 <alexjurkiewicz> well bbl. But the per-level + global pool sounds cool. And I do think the source of doom clock damage could be changed so it's less psychologically oppresive
22:47:38 <gammafunk> oh I see
22:48:06 <alexjurkiewicz> it might be impossible to include a clock in a crawl fork which isn't seen as "herding" though, just because of the heritage
22:48:24 <ProzacElf> levels above you start getting destroyed by the weight of the clock =p
22:48:29 <gammafunk> we should add the really wonder IA monsters to crawl that I super love
22:48:35 <ProzacElf> so there's nowhere left to retreat to
22:48:39 <ProzacElf> what's IA anyway?
22:48:43 <alexjurkiewicz> !lg * won recent nrune=15 / turns>150000
22:48:44 <Sequell> 290/2959 games for * (won recent nrune=15): N=290/2959 (9.80%)
22:48:56 <alexjurkiewicz> advil: IMO 10% is significant
22:49:08 <gammafunk> like a monster that unconditionally confuses you whenever in LOS unless you have the clarity trait and if you can't move out of its way and it closes it, it hits you to death
22:49:28 <advil> I'm not sure I think 150k is the right point to be worrying at
22:50:07 <gammafunk> Just want to point out that what we're most trying to prevent here is not the turncount number being above X itself
22:50:14 <gammafunk> but rather certain tactics from being 'optimal'
22:50:16 <advil> 150k to 200k is a mix of people scumming, and weak players, I'd guess it's mostly the latter
22:50:32 <gammafunk> like camping on stairs and shouting, luring in the most extreme ways imagineable
22:50:47 <advil> my first 15 rune was over 200k, but that's not because I was scumming
22:51:04 <gammafunk> having a high turncount is not necesarrily equatable to those tactics since abyss, pan, zigs exist
22:51:40 <gammafunk> so if we get to the point of implementing something like xp decay I would be looking more at what you could do on a per-level basis
22:52:48 <gammafunk> we might have to look at it differently if we want to keep food and just reduce nutritiona available
22:53:49 <advil> I agree with the motivation of trying to sanitize what is optimal, but I am pushing back against people (not you gf) who say that this is a massive terrible problem
22:55:12 <gammafunk> yeah, I also agree that it's not some horrid problem that make the game unplayable now or anything
22:55:29 <hellmonk> I don't think it makes the game unplayable either
22:55:36 <gammafunk> it's gotten maybe a bit worse with nospawn for e.g. undead with no piety gods
22:56:08 <hellmonk> but I think coming up with a good, clean clock would be a big improvement and is relatively difficult to do
22:56:09 <advil> yeah, that could change things
22:56:26 <gammafunk> advil: hellmonk is just more aggressive in addressing things in hellcrawl then we tend to be in dcss
22:56:32 <gammafunk> which he can do since he's the only dev!!!
22:56:39 <hellmonk> fwiw part of the clock problem in my mind is that interacting with the current one (food) is not clean at all
22:57:15 <gammafunk> well, personally I don't think food should be the clock unless it's highly streamlined
22:57:23 <gammafunk> possibly neil's branch and no chunks
22:57:29 <gammafunk> for non-gh, that is
22:58:08 <gammafunk> if you streamline it to that degree then it's going to behave in a somewhat similar way, the difference being that it will be less smooth with things like food shops, food acquire
22:58:18 <gammafunk> god choices like jiyva, gozag
22:58:48 <gammafunk> the xp decay thing would not much care about god choice, although levels with more or fewere monsters could affect it, I suppose
22:59:18 <gammafunk> and there could be some other way to do a forward-progress clock that's not either of those, I guess
22:59:46 <hellmonk> how is xp decay going to interact with backtracking
22:59:55 <gammafunk> same as how piety decay does
23:00:06 <gammafunk> if you don't do excessive amounts of it, you're probably not going to notice
23:00:10 <hellmonk> ok
23:00:59 <gammafunk> minmay pointed out how if you do manual explore and save aut to get less piety decay (and theoretically xp decay)
23:01:16 <gammafunk> you also gain less piety (and xp to pay off xp decay) usually
23:01:21 <gammafunk> since you fight fewer level monsters
23:01:31 <gammafunk> so that balances out some of the diff between manual and autoexplore
23:02:11 <gammafunk> for travel it's generally just a loss of piety/xp, but normally players aren't traveling to the extent that this is hugely relevant
23:03:53 <hellmonk> yeah seems reasonable
23:05:48 <advil> !lg * won recent nrune=15 / turns>182383
23:05:49 <Sequell> 107/2959 games for * (won recent nrune=15): N=107/2959 (3.62%)
23:06:03 <advil> that is games >2 standard deviations from the mean
23:07:30 <advil> (a slightly better way of counting outliers, imo, 95% CI would be even better)
23:09:14 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-286-g6fcecc0 (34)
23:09:16 <johnstein> gammafunk, I'm really late replying, but I've had several games where piety drain really screws me up because I rest too much and go back and forth between levels that feel too hard for me, leaving them barely cleared.
23:09:16 <Sequell> johnstein: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
23:09:53 <gammafunk> johnstein: right, piety decay can also punish bad tactics, but that's fine
23:10:12 <advil> looking at these distributions I almost want to say we could just have the dungeon end at 300k turns and be done with it :D
23:10:22 <johnstein> I know it's because I'm not playing well and when I last played I was trying to intentionally play fast to unlearn those habits, but piety loss does seem like clock that seems to motivate and stress me out
23:10:29 <gammafunk> well again I don't see the issue as "overall turncount"
23:10:37 <gammafunk> we don't actually care about turncount, the number
23:10:51 <advil> imo the issue is what we want the distribution to look like
23:10:51 <gammafunk> we care about tactics that are encouraged
23:11:00 <gammafunk> I don't think it really is, actually, but it's certainly correlated
23:11:17 <gammafunk> why are we aiming for a distribution? so we can say put a distribution on it?
23:11:32 <gammafunk> the clock issue is about what tactics we encourage/discourage imo
23:11:49 <gammafunk> not that turncount is not useful as an indicator for some bad things people do
23:12:09 <hellmonk> I will say that it's extra difficult to have a meaningful clock in a game with persistent floors and backtracking
23:12:13 <advil> I guess maybe what I'm talking about is the importance of the problem
23:12:45 <advil> tbh I think this is one of those areas where a few very vocal (but ... atypical) community members have really shaped the discussion
23:13:06 <hellmonk> yeah I can see the argument for ignoring it and focusing on better balance first, you just don't want to reach the point where new players feel encouraged or obligated to spend very long amounts of time scumming floors
23:13:32 <advil> I really, really doubt that this impacts new players in any way
23:13:33 <gammafunk> advil: that's sort of a vague accusation to make; I feel the basic problems with boring but optimal tactics are reasonably clear
23:13:44 <hellmonk> it only takes one crawlwiki guide
23:13:57 <advil> I don't mean it as an accusation
23:14:16 <gammafunk> lots of things may not impact new players in the least, like the entire end portion of the game, for instance, but of course we balance those
23:14:25 <johnstein> is the tactic being encouraged to not use auto explore 95% of the time and not heal up to full HP after every battle? or should the proposed changes not impact those players at all?
23:14:51 <gammafunk> I agree that forward-progress is not the defining issue of crawl nor even its most pressing issue, but I would say that it's at least an important issue
23:15:27 <|amethyst> johnstein:  I would expect those to not be impacted much, just as players who do those things don't regularly run out of piety from it
23:16:04 <gammafunk> yeah, new players don't typically experience any great problems from piety decay, do they?
23:16:11 <gammafunk> Or to put it another way, does anyone see the existence of piety decay as a problem that prevents players from enjoying crawl?
23:16:16 <|amethyst> I think it depends on the god
23:16:19 <johnstein> I've had several games where I worried about it. I'm starting to wonder if I'm a far worse player than I assumed I was
23:16:25 <johnstein> fed for sure I've had trouble with
23:16:35 <gammafunk> It may depend on the god to some degree, but I can't think of a god where I feel I've had that experience myself
23:16:46 <gammafunk> fed doesn't give you problems with piety decay, johnstein
23:16:48 <johnstein> and mid-game Trog when I'm trying to get rune #1 or 2, I seem to never have reliable Bros
23:17:03 <gammafunk> the reason why you have trouble with piety loss and fed is because you're making and killing wanderin mushrooms
23:17:04 <johnstein> oh. I must have just blown through it actively then
23:17:20 <hellmonk> I thought fed piety did decay now
23:17:25 <advil> yeah, I don't mean to suggest that it's unimportant in the sense that you shouldn't be working on it or anything
23:17:29 <gammafunk> that's a very common fed experience; make shrooms, they die, you lose large amounts of piety
23:17:43 <advil> fed does have piety decay right now
23:18:11 <|amethyst> I feel piety decay with sif when I do lots of healing/running/etc
23:18:26 <johnstein> I remember trying to make as few as possible, but I couldn't stay alive long enough without them. was quite a long time ago
23:18:33 <hellmonk> you feel it with sif because the gain is so bad
23:18:40 <gammafunk> yeah, sif is god where things are a bit difference, since you may not be putting nearly all XP into magic schools at any given time
23:20:07 <gammafunk> johnstein: well if you're designing a thing, you just want to be clear on the difference between "I was doing this normal, expected, good thing and I was penalized" and "I was doing a not very good thing and I was penalized"
23:20:49 <gammafunk> because the game is all about punishing when you do bad things
23:21:17 <gammafunk> It's sometimes a question of whether it punishes too much or too little
23:21:38 <gammafunk> As for fedhas, it's still one of the most broken if not the most broken gods in crawl
23:21:41 <|amethyst> I think, from a new player's perspective, healing to full between fights is the normal, expected, good thing :)
23:22:04 <gammafunk> correct, and when doing normal amounts of this, piety decay is not generally a problem in crawl
23:22:14 <advil> a better version of my not-really-serious proposal: have the dungeon collapse at 8 std deviations from the mean turncount
23:22:22 <advil> for winning games that is
23:22:31 <gammafunk> I mean if people actually think piety decay is a bad system all of a sudden, we could maybe design another one
23:22:32 <advil> (which right now is around 328k turns)
23:22:58 <gammafunk> Some gods like sif might need some minor adjust, but overall I think piety works pretty well
23:23:45 <|amethyst> I don't think it's bad at all; I think it has an effect for non-degenerate play, but I think it's more or less impossible to make a clock that penalises degenerate play and only degenerate play
23:24:07 <hellmonk> yeah I have come to agree w/ that assessment
23:24:30 <gammafunk> yeah, I wouldn't disagree
23:24:56 <gammafunk> I'm just surprised to hear generalist arguments (from all corners) about how these decay systems are 'bad'
23:25:06 <hellmonk> I think you can make a clock that is less invasive on normal play and/or has bigger effects on degenerate play, but piety decay is reasonably non-invasive already imo
23:25:19 <gammafunk> maybe it's something about them being unsatisfying a bit since you feel a permanent loss of a thing, however small
23:25:44 <johnstein> gammafunk/|amethyst: agreed that resting to full Hp is normal and that piety loss generally doesn't feel too bad or unfair and is pretty clear to new users
23:25:59 <gammafunk> another example where people hate it more strongly: half XP for summons
23:26:05 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  hm, which does make me think
23:26:13 <gammafunk> you don't actually care since you have summons and summons are crazy, but people really do dislike that strongly
23:26:37 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  if you e.g. rescale XP so that the total amount of (XP gained - XP lost) is the same for the average player
23:26:44 <|amethyst> then it's a buff for speedrunners
23:27:22 <|amethyst> (and if you don't rescale, it's a relative buff for speedrunners, unless you bias it so that you get 0 XP lost for a game significantly slower than a speedrun)
23:27:35 <|amethyst> s/bias/balance/
23:29:06 <gammafunk> yeah, I see what you mean
23:29:31 <gammafunk> obv not a critical issue (and speedrunners could even finally welcome a speedrunner buff)
23:29:41 <gammafunk> since we've been "nerfing speedruns to the ground" recently
23:30:20 <gammafunk> limited teleport, yellow wand removal, chei nerfs to forms!!!!
23:30:41 <gammafunk> I think the next great speedrun kerfuffle will be elliptics legendary "aut based scoring" branch
23:31:06 <gammafunk> it exists in heaven alongside lasty's "ranged reform" branch and webtiles-changes
23:31:54 <gammafunk> but final thing about "xp decay" is that I want to hear from other people (only just have gotten it written up) and it doesn't have to go in this release even if we like it
23:32:17 <gammafunk> neil's branch is basically ready to go in and could even be an temporary step
23:32:43 <gammafunk> I will add the speedrun comment to the plan writeup along with mentioning how XL scaling will have to be a thing
23:32:46 <advil> one thing I was wondering is if you've considered just reusing draining? would make it super easy to implement
23:33:08 <gammafunk> advil: we did discuss that, and it's much less desireable because drain has all sorts of weird ancillary effects
23:33:41 <gammafunk> it's not totally unreasonable, but I don't think xp debt is at all hard to implement (I'm really only concerned about design issues, not implementation)
23:33:54 <gammafunk> and with drain you have to be continuously checking your skills, spells etc
23:34:08 <gammafunk> this can also happen with piety decay to an extent, since you drop stars
23:34:24 <gammafunk> but with drain you need to know if your spells suddenly dropped to e.g. yellow miscasts
23:34:30 <advil> would xp debt not affect skills?
23:34:35 <gammafunk> no
23:34:45 <gammafunk> well
23:34:48 <advil> ah, I had misunderstood I think
23:34:55 <gammafunk> xp debt is simply xp that must be payed off befor you can raise your skills/XL
23:35:03 <advil> I see
23:35:16 <gammafunk> however a secondary part was that you could lose an XL if you accrued enough
23:35:48 <gammafunk> regardless of that secondary and option part (we don't have to include the XL loss), it may need some basic UI for high debt
23:35:53 <gammafunk> probably just a status light
23:36:15 <advil> "stagnant" status
23:36:19 <gammafunk> heh
23:36:22 <gammafunk> Stag
23:36:57 <gammafunk> then we add a Party status...
23:38:09 <gammafunk> the other aspect is how we want to adjust for loss of spell hunger, evocations hunger, berserk hunger, how to handle fedhas and fruit, do gozag/jiyva need adjustments
23:38:49 <gammafunk> but before dealing with that I just want to hear from everyone; even if this can't make this version if there is some huge hangup with the idea it would be nice to find that out
23:43:16 <advil> I think it's worth trying, but I don't think I'm really experienced enough to guess how it will go
23:45:15 <gammafunk> if we ever implement something like this, there's only one important question
23:45:24 <gammafunk> who gets the millimarvins for removing food code
23:46:01 <gammafunk> I guess much of it might stay in place if ghouls/vp are unchanged
23:59:40 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.21-a0-286-g6fcecc0 (34)