00:29:37 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.21-a0-221-gfe971b9 (34)
01:38:02 -!- Telnaior_ is now known as Telnaior
02:45:27 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
03:22:53 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-221-gfe971b9 (34)
03:43:19 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
06:44:53 <bh> Does anyone want to present at the RL Celebration in SF this November? The organizer is asking me for names
08:34:55 <gammafunk> bh: I already sent an email to the secret dev list about that
08:35:13 <gammafunk> hopefully that email went through
08:35:29 <gammafunk> but yeah he may have trouble finding a dev to go this year
08:39:37 <advil> I wonder if I'm actually on the secret dev list
08:40:52 <elliptic> perhaps nobody is on the secret dev list other than gammafunk
08:40:58 <gammafunk> har har har
08:41:22 <elliptic> (I didn't get this e-mail either)
08:41:25 <advil> has there been any email on it since feb?
08:41:29 <gammafunk> I didn't say it was the secret *cool devl* mailing list
08:41:30 <gammafunk> hrm
08:41:33 <advil> I'm not sure I've ever gotten email on it
08:41:38 <gammafunk> no, not to my knowledge
08:41:44 <advil> heh ok
08:42:31 <gammafunk> |amethyst: is our secret mailing list still working? I sent an email to it that apparently didn't go through
08:50:55 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I got a copy
08:50:58 <gammafunk> oh
08:51:12 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  but it's entirely possible that other people didn't, because of antispam
08:51:13 <wheals_> i didn't get one
08:51:46 <gammafunk> well, neil is an actually cool dev and elliptic and wheals aren't, so maybe it's working fine
08:51:58 <advil> or maybe it's |amethyst who's the only one on the secret dev list
08:58:53 <gammafunk> |amethyst: oh, yeah I got a bounce message
08:59:17 <gammafunk> |amethyst: looks like gmail bounce it for all gmail recipients
09:00:38 <gammafunk> I can forward the full bounce message if you like, but I seems that gmail doesn't like the server
09:00:45 <advil> well, guess that's why I didn't see anything
09:28:19 <gammafunk> I resent that message about the conference to the active people for whom it bounced
09:35:54 <advil> yeah, got it
10:11:36 <shmup> come on guys, where's the transparency
10:15:06 <gammafunk> I've also sent that "Top 10 times shmup played DCSS really badly" to the secret dev list
10:15:12 <gammafunk> You guys got to read that one, it's so hilarious
10:20:24 <shmup> i cant even begin to imagine how you'd narrow it down to a mere 10
13:08:44 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
13:24:24 <amalloy> tbh i resent every message i receive from gammafunk
13:24:46 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-221-gfe971b9 (34)
13:30:05 <amalloy> (thanks for the email though)
13:32:04 <amalloy> i told them i might be able to put together a talk on the usefulness of online play, enabling various Sequell features and automatic linking of crashdumps etc
13:34:57 <gammafunk> oh, that's great
13:46:40 <gammafunk> let us know if you need any sequell info
13:47:36 <gammafunk> !learn q miek[7
13:47:36 <Sequell> miek[7/7]: background adding black magic: .echo $(map (fn (x) (.echo !kw $(combo_to_race ${x})he char=$(combo_to_race $x)he)) (split "|" (!lg * playable s=crace x=max(char) fmt:"${x}" join:"|")))
13:47:52 <gammafunk> ??miek[7
13:48:03 <Sequell> miek[7/7]: background adding black magic: .echo !kw Dshe char=Dshe !kw DEhe char=DEhe !kw Mihe char=Mihe !kw Ophe char=Ophe !kw Drhe char=Drhe !kw Grhe char=Grhe !kw Sphe char=Sphe !kw Muhe char=Muhe !kw HOhe char=HOhe !kw Trhe char=Trhe !kw Mfhe char=Mfhe !kw Huhe char=Huhe !kw Fohe char=Fohe !kw VShe char=VShe !kw Tehe char=Tehe !kw Vphe char=Vphe !kw Nahe char=Nahe !kw Oghe char=Oghe !kw Kohe c...
13:48:26 <gammafunk> must have been from the days before those were builtins
13:51:57 <shmup> amalloy++
13:51:59 <shmup> that'd be a cool talk
14:01:35 <advil> amalloy sounds good, maybe relevant thing I wrote in r/roguelikedev: https://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikedev/comments/6ddpi5/faq_fridays_revisited_9_debugging/di9z0mf/
14:27:11 <gammafunk> !tell elliptic qw HuBe that made it to V:5 http://dpaste.com/2KXCSEG with the hopefully now fully correct XP info ; does look like a HuBe might generate more spawns than something like a GrBe
14:27:13 <Sequell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let elliptic know.
14:42:52 <shmup> excellent post advil
14:46:24 <shmup> it got little attention because it offered advice for thinsg developers can introduce _into_ their game to make debugging easier
14:46:43 <shmup> while as all the other posts were more IDE, breakpoint, related techniques. the same ones everyone does
14:47:03 <shmup> yours was nice because i had no clue dcss could do some of that stuff, like generating Dev Accessible Only saves
14:59:22 <advil> thanks shmup -- I also posted it very late so I'm not sure how many people in that sub actually saw it
15:08:34 <amalloy> heh. the last sentence of advil's post is funny: i agree with the premise but draw exactly the opposite conclusion. the codebase is complicated enough that i often don't know the right stuff to mprf, but i can slap a breakpoint in the right function and step through it until something surprising happens
15:09:02 <advil> heh
15:09:28 <wheals_> oh nice, you picked up doing the faq fridays
15:09:35 <advil> well, I did one
15:09:54 <gammafunk> I do try to avoid adding debugging statements, but sometimes it is hard to define the right watch point
15:09:56 <advil> I've looked at a bunch of the others and haven't felt like I had as much to say
15:10:30 <gammafunk> my c++-foo and gdb-foo aren't quite as strong as it should be
15:10:33 <gammafunk> s/it/they/
15:10:55 <advil> wheals_: I thought about posting something for the saving one about save compat, but it seemed to inside baseball, and you'd posted on the first go-round
15:11:12 <wheals_> yeah
15:12:10 <gammafunk> a faq friday about the wonders of the dcss Makefile
15:14:05 <advil> maybe next time they have a ui one I can write about the adventure of trying to have a f***ing text box outside of the message pane
15:14:44 <shmup> lol
16:02:20 <johnstein> gammafunk: apologies if this has already been talked to death and I missed it, but how would HuBe generate more spawns than something like a GrBe?
16:23:36 <gammafunk> johnstein: spending more time on a level means more spawns, so any aspect of a HuBe that makes it spend more turns relative to GrBe will mean it gets more spawns
16:27:51 <advil> oh, speaking of debuggers, does anyone else use lldb at all?
16:33:02 <johnstein> what aspects of HuBe make it spend more time on a level? I'm sure it's something simple I'm forgetting
16:35:19 <mikee_> it's weaker so it needs to rest more
16:35:36 <advil> humans are lazy
16:40:01 <gammafunk> yeah, what mikee_ said
16:40:26 <gammafunk> Gr takes less damage and probably deals a little bit more damage too
16:40:27 <gammafunk> !apt gr
16:40:28 <Sequell> Gr: Fighting: 1, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -1, Maces: 0, Polearms: -1, Staves: 0, Slings: -1, Bows: 0, Xbows: 0, Throw: -1, Armour: 1, Dodge: -2, Stealth: 2, Shields: 1, UC: 0, Splcast: -1, Conj: 1, Hexes: -1, Charms: -1, Summ: -1, Nec: -2, Tloc: -1, Tmut: -2, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: -2, Earth: 2, Poison: 0, Inv: 1, Evo: -1, Exp: 0, HP: -2, MP: 0
16:40:33 <gammafunk> well I guess not really
16:40:38 <gammafunk> wrt dealing more damage
16:40:47 <wheals_> clearly it's because they have lower hp so they don't have to spend as long resting up
16:40:52 <gammafunk> but it has quite good AC which reduces damage
16:41:13 <probably_> rpois
16:41:47 <probably_> no resting forever after snake battle
16:46:14 <gammafunk> !stats grbe
16:46:16 <gammafunk> !stats hube
16:47:06 <Sequell> Starting stats for GrBe: Str 20 Int 7 Dex 9. Stat gain: si/4
16:47:31 <Sequell> Starting stats for HuBe: Str 17 Int 7 Dex 12. Stat gain: sid/4
16:50:00 <gammafunk> also
16:50:05 <gammafunk> how did mikee get in here?!
16:50:35 <mikee_> i'm a dev so i figured i should fulfill my responsibility of being in this channel
16:55:42 <amalloy> advil: i used lldb once or twice on my macbook
16:55:54 <advil> not recently I guess?
16:55:57 <amalloy> since gdb-on-mac didn't seem to like the way crawl handles input or something
16:56:04 <amalloy> several months ago, yeah
16:56:06 <amalloy> maybe a year
16:56:13 <advil> I've used it before but I'm having a weird problem with it where enter moves the mouse down in the main menu
16:56:20 <johnstein> wouldn't Hu be the average? so half the characters spend more time and half spend less?
16:56:25 <amalloy> funny, that's what made me switch to lldb instead of gdb
16:56:30 <amalloy> is that gdb did that
16:56:39 <advil> huh
16:56:50 <amalloy> i think
16:56:55 <advil> er s/mouse/selection
16:56:57 <advil> but you get the idea
16:56:57 <|amethyst> is that even with attaching from a different terminal?
16:56:58 <amalloy> advil: one thing to try is using lldb to attach
16:57:12 <advil> I didn't try attaching
16:57:18 <|amethyst> I almost never do   gdb crawl
16:57:20 <amalloy> maybe that was the difference, not gdb vs llsb after all
16:57:39 <|amethyst> because it's half-useless when the output of Crawl gets mixed with the output of gdb
16:57:53 <gammafunk> johnstein: the comparison was GrBe to HuBe
16:58:05 <gammafunk> but exactly how average it would be is anyone's guess really
16:58:27 <advil> ah, now that you mention it, I think I've mainly used lldb for local tiles
16:58:34 <advil> which wouldn't have these problems
16:58:44 <gammafunk> "average" is more of an abstract concept; we certainly haven't balanced things so that Hu has exactly average AC or damage or anything
16:58:46 <johnstein> ah ok. I suppose I just need to run all combos and produce a massive dump of charts and comparisons
16:59:16 <gammafunk> Well it's not really a big deal; I think the notion of average we'd like is really something like "average difficulty"
17:00:00 <gammafunk> And you can have something that is of average difficulty with above-average damage or below-average defenses or what have you
17:00:39 <gammafunk> In any case, this was just a look at the question of do Hu get more XP from spawns compared to the other species we've looked at
17:00:47 <amalloy> gdb crawl definitely has some downsides, but they don't generally bother me enough to make me go to the trouble of looking up how to attach gdb and manage two terminals
17:00:53 <gammafunk> judging by just one bot game, it seems like it might be
17:01:33 <gammafunk> oh, I found gdb crawl to be unusable with my crawl terminal settings
17:01:37 <|amethyst> amalloy:   I do just    gdb -p $(pidof crawl)   from a different terminal, and Super-Tab between them
17:01:50 <gammafunk> because I guess that turns off cursor blinking, for one
17:02:08 <|amethyst> it helps to have a big enough screen to fit both side-by-side
17:02:24 <gammafunk> or it does something weird to the cursor so I can't use delete effectively, but also it's just to not have your crawl and gdb display screwed up
17:02:36 <gammafunk> yeah, I don't even do them side-by-side, I just do what |amethyst said and use tab
17:02:36 <|amethyst> what I wish is that gdb -tui  didn't suck
17:03:18 <gammafunk> it's sort of a pain to reload crawl though
17:03:27 <gammafunk> if you have to quit or if it crashes
17:03:38 <gammafunk> dunno if there's a way to reattach from in gdb that doesn't involve process lookup
17:03:49 <gammafunk> but I usually just quit gdb when that happens
17:04:38 <|amethyst> apparently there's also 'set new-console on'  in some versions of GDB
17:04:44 <|amethyst> and gdbserver
17:05:00 <|amethyst> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8963208/gdb-display-output-of-target-application-in-a-separate-window
17:05:11 <gammafunk> yeah, I saw that gdbserver thing but didn't look too much into it (esp. after learnding about the $(pidof crawl) trick)
17:05:23 <|amethyst> I haven't used it myself either
17:16:25 <johnstein> is there a gdb for msys2?
17:17:39 <gammafunk> johnstein: gdb does work fine for msys2, yes
17:17:40 <amalloy> allegedly yes, according to https://sourceforge.net/p/msys2/discussion/general/thread/0f85b448/
17:18:02 <gammafunk> I've tested it myself with breakpoint in a debug-lite build
17:18:02 <gammafunk> using process attaching
17:18:03 <gammafunk> which btw was the only way I could get it to work
17:18:05 <johnstein> wonder how much of my life I'll waste trying to get it working
17:18:15 <gammafunk> well it's working out of the box; you just have to use it
17:18:23 <gammafunk> but you want to do something like
17:18:25 <gammafunk> start crawl.exe
17:18:33 <gammafunk> then find the process ID (e.g in task manager)
17:18:36 <amalloy> just tried gdbserver for funsies, and it seems to work fine but requires more keystrokes to get started than just attaching with -p
17:18:37 <gammafunk> then gdb -p ID
17:19:45 <|amethyst> you can also do   attach PID   inside gdb if it was already started
17:19:59 <|amethyst> (e.g. if you need to restart crawl because it crashed)
17:20:25 <|amethyst> oh
17:20:49 <|amethyst> on modern Linux systems there's a kernel setting you need to do to allow gdb to attach to processes it didn't start
17:21:03 <gammafunk> yes, I have to run gdb with sudo since I don't want to change that setting
17:21:11 <gammafunk> I didn't have a problem with that in msys2 btw
17:21:16 <gammafunk> no security warning or anything
17:21:24 <gammafunk> but I did have to get the PID from windows task manager
17:21:35 <gammafunk> since msys2 process list does not show the crawl process
17:21:47 <gammafunk> not sure if there's even a way to get it
17:21:54 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I'm not sure running gdb as root is actually safer than allowing ptrace of arbitrary same-user processes
17:22:03 <gammafunk> that was my reasoning, yea :)
17:22:13 <|amethyst> since gdb is a pretty complicated program with things like python plugins
17:22:25 <gammafunk> oh you said not sure
17:22:26 <|amethyst> I certainly have crashed gdb before, anyway :)
17:22:38 <gammafunk> well, perhaps you're right, but I wasn't sure it was wise to allow that
17:22:58 <|amethyst> what would be nice, and maybe there is a way...
17:23:28 <|amethyst> if you could add a capability flag to /usr/bin/gdb to allow it and it only to attache
17:23:31 <|amethyst> s/che/ch/
17:23:45 <|amethyst> I guess that's no safer than turning the ptrace option on though
17:24:07 <|amethyst> since the malware can just call out to gdb instead of using ptrace itself
17:37:08 <|amethyst> hm, I'm teaching Systems Programming again in the Spring
17:38:00 <|amethyst> maybe I should give students an assignment to write a program that, when attached to by gdb, will cause gdb to execute arbitrary code
17:38:21 <|amethyst> (under its own privileges, not the program's)
17:38:36 <|amethyst> then have them issue a pull request to crawl
17:38:57 <|amethyst> where "arbitrary code" is "rm -rf /home/gammafunk"
17:43:49 <gammafunk> haha but I have a security measure that thwarts all that
17:44:04 <gammafunk> /home/gammafunk is a fake
17:44:04 <gammafunk> real data stored in /usr/gammajunk
17:44:21 <|amethyst> I try not to store real data in my junk
17:44:44 <|amethyst> because the students look at you *really* funny when you plug it into the USB port
17:47:53 <Floodkiller> has anyone had the opportunity to review the Gnoll PRs I submitted? the more recent one is just a Mantis fix, the older one is feature addition/modification though
18:13:43 <ProzacElf> |amethyst: that's when you look at them and say "what?  doesn't everyone use a USB port this way?"
18:18:44 -!- Amnesiac__ is now known as Amnesiac
18:27:06 -!- Fixer_ is now known as Fixer
18:45:58 <bh> shit, I'm not getting e-mail on the secret dev list
18:46:03 <bh> did I get fired or did my email server shit the bed?
18:50:39 <gammafunk> bh: it was just gmail bouncing messages from the server
18:50:43 <gammafunk> not sure what we can do about that
18:51:19 <gammafunk> I resent it to everyone who got reported as bounced, but you already know the message anyhow; it was just the request from the RL conference organizer
20:42:03 <alexjurkiewicz> gammafunk: had a chance to peek at my vaults PR
21:02:37 <amalloy> alexjurkiewicz: i'll look over it
21:17:00 <gammafunk> it's been reviewed, but I think alex fixed the issues I pointed out
21:31:34 <gammafunk> alexjurkiewicz: I replied to some of allen's comments, some of these vaults look new relative to my last review
21:31:44 <gammafunk> so I can look over the whole thing in more detail tomorrow
22:04:19 <Cheibriados> Misc evokables message extra confusing for lightning rods, grey out extra misc evokables 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11198 by damerell
22:08:35 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
22:19:17 <alexjurkiewicz> thanks for the reviews you two
22:19:33 <alexjurkiewicz> good catches, i'll update probably next week
22:27:54 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
23:37:20 <johnstein> is this how crawl-code would look if it were physically manifest? https://imgur.com/gallery/ryr2q6H
23:42:58 <|amethyst> johnstein:  parts of it are more like this:  http://www.brancorth.com/images/gears_ill.png
23:44:09 <|amethyst> better image, especially given the context:  https://www.digitalgov.gov/2015/11/27/government-product-managers-play-a-key-role-in-ux/
23:44:32 <|amethyst> "We play a key role in user experience (UX), because we are tasked with understanding users to build a product that is desirable and viable."
23:45:27 <wheals_> You hear the grinding of crawlcode gears.
23:49:52 <johnstein> |amethyst: it took me way too long to understand those fears
23:49:54 <johnstein> uh
23:50:04 <johnstein> gears, autocorrect
23:50:33 <doy> just like crawlcode
23:50:42 <|amethyst> johnstein:  you're not alone: https://imgur.com/L3tRjiv