00:41:32 <checkers> minmay: your old serial vault set 'ponds' was removed apparently because you felt they made life too easy for Mf / Op, is that true?
01:09:33 <minmay> checkers: I lobbied for their removal on the basis of I absolutely despised getting them, not on the basis of Mf / Op
01:09:56 <minmay> that vault submission was one of the bigger "wtf was I thinking" moments in my life I think
01:11:06 <minmay> while we're on the subject, there's at least one arrival vault that lets Mf / Op / Ba easily scum D:1 respawns
01:11:38 <minmay> but everyone can scum respawns in lair so idk if that is really a problem
01:25:26 <checkers> minmay: what didn't you like about them?
01:25:32 <checkers> for non-mf/op they were purely visual, right
02:09:45 <minmay> checkers: the fact that they had water and plants
02:10:09 <minmay> those aren't visual, they screw with autoexplore, create degenerate gameplay, and have water monsters
02:20:01 <checkers> hmm ok
02:20:15 <checkers> you will not like my new serial thing
02:41:29 <nikheizen> how many water monsters are there
02:41:44 <nikheizen> 1?
02:43:51 <gammafunk> maybe he left it to the level gen
13:14:37 <Rotatell> chukamok (L20 DsIE) ERROR in 'rltiles/tiledef-player.cc' at line 2817: ASSERT failed: idx of 0 out of range TILE_MAIN_MAX (1288) .. TILEP_PLAYER_MAX (4093) (Lair:1)
13:19:30 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir
14:05:44 <Nivim> Is there a thread or other discussion I can read that exemplifies the current state of making Dg less boring?
14:10:28 <MarvinPA> doubtful since they're currently good and not boring, certainly you could search tavern and find endless suggestions for fixing a problem that doesn't need fixing if you like
14:13:29 <Nivim> Not boring? You sacrifice a god for stats; were they changed at some point but it wasn't something that showed up in mutations?
14:32:18 <Andrew> Hi, I was hoping someone could take a look at this error I ran into while trying to compile the tiles version of crawl
14:32:31 <Andrew> here is the pastbin link
14:32:34 <Andrew> https://pastebin.com/un82Ld2M
14:33:12 <Andrew> it worked fine compiling console, for what its worth
14:33:40 <geekosaur> sdl package on mingw is known to currently be broken
14:33:45 <|amethyst> Andrew:  try commenting out those two definitions in contrib/sdl2/src/joystick/windows/SDL_dxjoystick_c.h
14:33:46 <geekosaur> you'll have to wait for them to fix it
14:33:55 <Andrew> gotcha, that makes sense
14:34:01 <Andrew> ok, I'll try that
14:34:01 <geekosaur> or do that, I guess
14:34:44 <|amethyst> someone encountered that problem earlier and didn't get it fixed, but I think they might have commented only one of those two definitions
14:35:48 <|amethyst> There is a better patch to work both before and after the change in mingw, but it hasn't been committed yet
14:36:01 <|amethyst> https://bugzilla.libsdl.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3609
14:37:52 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir
14:42:25 <Andrew> made it past that part at least, see if it finishes
14:52:27 <Andrew> Thanks Amethyst that worked, compiled and runs fine.
14:59:26 <|amethyst> Andrew:  awesome, would you mind filing a bug report about that on Mantis?
15:00:04 <|amethyst> Andrew:  including your mingw version
15:00:06 <|amethyst> ??mantis
15:00:06 <Sequell> mantis[1/2]: To report bugs or submit new content like vaults, patches or tiles, go to: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php
15:09:32 <Andrew> I tried, but I can't seem to make an account the hash checker is tough
15:30:33 <gammafunk> Andrew: I think you have to try it a bunch of times
15:39:34 <Nivim> MPA: Ok, could you instead point me to a post breaking down what I've missed that makes Dg no more boring than characters with gods? You act like this is a well-trode conclusion, and the majority of Tavern threads aren't even going to have a distorted version of it.
15:39:50 <Nivim> s/ode/od/
16:37:49 <Cheibriados> 2 new vaults: Trove & Snake 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11133 by Skrybe
20:30:26 <checkers> what's the crawl variant called where you win once you reach d:15
20:30:51 <minmay> are you thinking of cratecrawl
20:31:03 <minmay> ??cratecrawl
20:31:03 <Sequell> cratecrawl ~ crate crawl[1/2]: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8705 update for .14: get the silver rune then leave, no entering depths/crypt/elf, can only enter one lair rune branch
20:31:31 <checkers> ty
20:40:42 <checkers> tempted to submit a patch to rename nikola 'maxwell'
20:43:00 <Andrew> how can you tell what version of mingw you are running?
20:44:30 <gammafunk> Andrew: how did you get mingw, through msys2?
20:44:37 <Andrew> yeah
20:44:50 <gammafunk> well the installer you used has a sha+date
20:44:58 <gammafunk> you probably used the one currently linked on the home page
20:45:07 <Andrew> thats true, I'll check there
20:45:12 <gammafunk> mingw refers to the compiler itself
20:45:24 <gammafunk> you can do gcc -v
20:46:02 <Andrew> gcc version 7.1.0 (Rev2, Built by MSYS2 project)
20:46:12 <Andrew> would that be it? sorry this stuff is new to me
20:47:00 <Andrew> I'm trying to write a bug report and someone was saying I should include the version of mingw I used to create the error
20:47:13 <gammafunk> that would be ok, but you should probably mention the msys2 version as well
20:47:21 <Andrew> ok, gotcha
20:47:33 <gammafunk> since the issue is probably not related to GCC itself, but rather something else in the system
20:47:40 <Andrew> yeah
20:47:59 <gammafunk> msys2 has been working well but there were ups and downs in the past
20:48:11 <gammafunk> maybe if there's a fix we can apply it to our own sdl repo
20:49:48 <Andrew> right, that makes sense
20:57:22 <Cheibriados> failure to compile, apparently due to XINPUT. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11134 by Semladag
20:58:07 <geekosaur> that's confusing...
20:58:23 <geekosaur> XINPUT_* maybe. XINPUT mkes me think the X11 extension and what??
21:05:15 <suomi> So anything planned for buffing necromancers? Specifically, the way to play the that most captures the necromancer fantasy is to completely ignore that school of magic and worship yred
21:07:33 <hellmonk> I disagree w/ the implication that necromancy is anything other than too good
21:08:56 <checkers> suomi: really? what about kiku?
21:09:34 <checkers> well. I agree yred is most like the diablo 2 necromancer. And clearly that is the only necromancer archetype worth considering
21:10:03 <suomi> Well, what I mean is, it comes really close to the ability of creating undead armies, but they all wither and crumble away
21:10:24 <amalloy> i find the current undead-army necromancy approach a lot more fun than yred actually
21:10:28 <suomi> What if, for example, you could create permament zombies or skeletons, but each one would lower your max MP to sustain
21:10:59 <amalloy> because your army's tendency to crumble puts a lot of pressure on you to push forward as quickly as possible before they wither, rather than resting up after every skirmish
21:11:00 <hellmonk> max mp sustains for summons was used in the dcss-ca fork iirc
21:11:12 <hellmonk> no idea if it worked though
21:12:16 <amalloy> with dchan and animate undead you can steamroll a whole floor with an army, so long as you don't twiddle your thumbs
21:12:57 <amalloy> probably with just animate dead, in the early game, but i usually don't have animate dead that early so i can't say for sure
21:16:10 <amalloy> so in summary, i think necromancy is already really strong, and encourages a playstyle that is more exciting and tactical than the alternative of having permanent summons
21:24:35 <checkers> permanent zombies/skeletons sounds like permanent weak ally army which sounds like beogh
21:27:06 <amalloy> yred already is that
21:29:06 <minmay> suomi: animate dead and animate skeleton recently changed from creating permanent allies to creating temporary ones, since permanent allies encourage degenerate gameplay (and are also more difficult to balance)
21:29:15 <minmay> temporary summons at least make you play faster
21:29:53 <minmay> also, the duration of zombies/skeletons is still extremely long; it's 760 to 2660 aut (so 76 to 266 "turns")
21:31:30 <minmay> if you want your "undead army" to be permanent and carry it across levels then you need to either worship Yred or play versions that are about 10 years old, but animate dead still lets you create swarms of 60 zombies and probably will continue to allow that for a while
21:31:38 <minmay> simulacrum and death channel let you make even more
21:40:04 <nikheizen> checkers: that's a super lame idea
21:40:16 <nikheizen> re: nikola -> maxwell
21:41:44 <minmay> ??toon[3]
21:41:44 <Sequell> toon[3/3]: 2. arc blade, sword and board, fire and lightning, skeleton - despite skeleton defenses arc blade is a glass cannon, and has an easier time playing as a 2 beam gimp archmage than as a melee toon
21:41:49 <minmay> fr make nikola a skeleton
21:43:25 <nikheizen> I heavily agree with amalloy about the non-permanent necros being more fun. Deathballing the level has a real feeling of momentum to it which I love.
21:44:24 <amalloy> incidentally, my current youtube series is a DrCj who transitioned into necromancy and is a decent lesson in what it looks like to steamroll a floor with dchan
21:44:59 <amalloy> so if you want to see what that is like, suomi, and don't find console videos completely unwatchable, check out
21:44:59 <amalloy> ??amalloy[youtube
21:45:00 <Sequell> amalloy[1/6]: https://www.youtube.com/AlanMalloy
21:45:43 <suomi> I'll give that watch
21:50:00 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-96-g1597e25: Make transporters have a designated landing site terrain feature 10(22 hours ago, 15 files, 38+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1597e25b5dd7
21:50:00 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-97-g3d14fa4: Rework the transporters in a vault 10(82 minutes ago, 1 file, 17+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3d14fa4ee8fd
21:50:00 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-98-g97cf70a: Save compat to add landing sites for existing transporters 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 23+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/97cf70aae6cb
21:50:00 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-99-g36601da: Reformat the character lists for console glyphs 10(22 hours ago, 1 file, 29+ 19-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/36601da8878d
21:50:00 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-100-g6b14a1c: Tweak the transporter minimap color to blue 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6b14a1c2ba0c
21:50:00 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-101-g2e6bd0f: Improve message when both a runed door and a transporter are unexplored 10(28 hours ago, 1 file, 28+ 28-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2e6bd0f10752
21:50:00 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-102-g9333ff4: Use an accurate parameter name in a method declaration 10(52 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9333ff408e81
21:50:00 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-103-gf2cc702: Remove a redundant condition 10(23 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f2cc7025bf1d
21:50:00 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-104-g7b58145: Don't leak information about unseen transporters (#11066) 10(16 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7b5814560ab2
22:05:43 <nikheizen> i see
22:09:40 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-104-g7b58145 (34)
22:14:38 <checkers> gammafunk: disappointing programmer art
22:26:38 <johnstein> so I have an old dcss repo. I just did a git pull on master and wanted to do a git module update --init
22:27:00 <johnstein> but my .git/config file has all the old gitorious urls.  w
22:27:28 <johnstein> is there a simple way to just tell my local git repo to just pull whatever the default config file on the remote is?
22:27:51 <johnstein> feels silly to have to keep dealing with the old urls
22:30:34 <hellmonk> hi johnstein! completely unrelated to your question but can I get hellcrawl updated and back up on cbro?
22:31:40 <johnstein> hellmonk, it will come back for sure. been busy. need to do the usual post-tourney stuff. revert default console version to trunk, update the html banners, and I really should rethink how I organize the experimentals
22:31:44 <hellmonk> ok, thats fine
22:31:45 <hellmonk> no rush
22:32:31 <gammafunk> checkers: I'll have you know that my mother is an accomplished artist
22:33:01 <johnstein> ugh. so even changing the .git/config file to have the right url doesn't quick fix it
22:33:19 <johnstein> I don't remember having to fiddle with this that much on cbro
22:33:24 <johnstein> (this is a local windows install)
22:33:53 <johnstein> looks like I could cd to each submodule dir and git remote set-url origin github...
22:33:58 <johnstein> but that feels like the wrong solution
22:34:22 <geekosaur> that's basically it unless you want to nuke and start over
22:34:44 <johnstein> that seems really weird there's no better solution
22:34:48 <geekosaur> which iirc is what you ended up doing on cbro because you made a typo editing one of the config files and git became completely confused
22:35:04 <geekosaur> submodules are a pain in general
22:35:06 <johnstein> did I? I don't remember ever having to reclone
22:35:27 <johnstein> sounds like me probably
22:35:32 <geekosaur> without them it's just one git remote set-url, with them you have to also change each submodule separately
22:35:56 <johnstein> it's just weird that there's config info in the .git/config file that doesn't seem to do anything
22:36:21 <geekosaur> iirc it's there just for bootstrapping
22:36:29 <checkers> johnstein: edit the files in .git/config
22:36:34 <checkers> and maybe .git/someotherfile
22:36:34 <johnstein> that's what I did
22:36:51 <johnstein> oh. I didn't do anything in someotherfiel
22:36:51 <geekosaur> if you removed all the submodules *and* their info under .git, then did 'git submodule update --init', then it would use those urls
22:36:53 <checkers> there's another file in there. And you might have to change the individual git configs for each submodule
22:37:17 <geekosaur> but after they've been fetched once it uses the live info in each submodule under .git instead of .git/config
22:37:24 <johnstein> I may just reclone. this is for my local PC and I don't have an env set up.
22:50:45 <amalloy> submodules are just about the only thing in git where i'm willing to say "i give up, just reclone the damn thing" as my method of coping. everything else i consider myself proficient enough to solve things the "right" way, but submodules are just awful
22:52:05 <gammafunk> I think the issue is just that you may need to remove the submodule stuff from .git
22:52:23 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/568 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/568
22:52:23 <Cheibriados> 03Alex Jurkiewicz02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/568 * 0.21-a0-95-g624d40f: Rename Demigods to Golems 10(6 minutes ago, 63 files, 97+ 197-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/624d40fe5a11
22:52:26 <gammafunk> when mine got out of wack, I was able to do that and get them reset just fine
22:53:44 <gammafunk> not even listing their new abbreviation in the commit
22:54:43 <gammafunk> !makewords Go
22:54:51 <Sequell> GoAE GoAK GoAM GoAr GoAs GoBe GoCK GoCj GoEE GoEn GoFE GoFi GoGl GoHu GoIE GoMo GoNe GoSk GoSu GoTm GoVM GoWn GoWr GoWz
22:55:18 <hellmonk> not bad
22:55:27 <gammafunk> what is there besides GoNe
22:55:31 <hellmonk> GoWn
22:55:39 <gammafunk> ah, yeah
22:55:41 <gammafunk> but not amazing
22:56:19 <hellmonk> theres a flavor deficit though, why come golems dont get torment immunity
22:56:41 <johnstein> ^status
22:56:42 <gammafunk> also immunity to everything
22:57:01 <gammafunk> and MR(infinity)
22:57:01 <hellmonk> yeah theres a pretty big disconnect between player dg/golem theme and monster golem theme
22:57:25 <hellmonk> also they should obv not have to eat, or else have to eat rocks or sth instead of food
22:57:37 <geekosaur> ut oh
22:57:38 <johnstein> hmm
22:57:46 <johnstein> something weird happened on cbro
22:57:50 <suomi> rip DG
22:59:13 <johnstein> ^status
22:59:24 <Rotatell> 35 Crawlers. CBRO disk usage=88% (135GB) | RAM usage=31% (4GB)| uptime/CPU= 22:59:12 up 124 days,  3:37,  3 users,  load average: 0.12, 0.27, 0.44 (4 Cores) http://status.berotato.org
22:59:36 <johnstein> must have been a network blip
22:59:51 <johnstein> znc, my mumbler server, ssh, and webtiles all went down
23:00:27 <Palyth> is the in game search supposed to not return items marked useless?
23:00:49 <johnstein> you can toggle that I think palyth
23:00:57 <Palyth> ok, just making it was as intended
23:01:01 <johnstein> but default should omit the useless stuff
23:01:05 <Palyth> cool
23:03:59 <nikheizen> i mean when you search up "armour" as an ogre you don't really care about seeing the 3000 leather armours and scale mails which dropped
23:49:00 <checkers> guys. golems are made out of clay, but they're not still clay
23:49:18 <checkers> in the same way that eve was made from a rib, but women are not made of ribs
23:49:33 <checkers> a golem looks like a human, just one that was built
23:58:04 <johnstein> wow ok I'm not a MSVC person. trying to build on windows. said to use 2012 but I assumed 'oh it's outdated, I'll just install the free vis studio 2017', but I get errors saying I need to install visual studio 2012 build tools
23:58:38 <johnstein> and trying to find that is getting confusing trying to navigate the internets. I'm going to keep looking, but wasn't sure if there were any Pro Strats