01:00:37 <gammafunk> |amethyst: btw, I asked alex about the new scoreboard and he's not planning to return to development of that any time soon, so we may be stuck with CAO for a while
01:00:49 <gammafunk> unless we can take his project and finish it
01:01:47 <gammafunk> just thought I'd mention it since we had been discussing a move to that
01:57:57 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-71-g5e5ddd2
02:52:31 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-71-g5e5ddd2
03:05:33 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
03:06:06 -!- Mayoi is now known as erkin
03:12:02 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-71-g5e5ddd2 (34)
07:18:14 <Rotatell> ziggurnaut (L20 DgAE)  (Vaults:4)
09:11:29 <kenran> I'm trying to create my first vault (a bazaar vault); how do I effectively use the proposed &P command? The game is always crashing when I do that. What am I doing wrong here?
09:11:49 <kenran> I can help myself by just using &L so it's fine, I'd just like to understand :)
09:14:33 <gammafunk> kenran: your vault is probably a mini-vault without an ORIENT line
09:14:59 <gammafunk> so you could temporarily give it ORIENT: float
09:15:04 <gammafunk> so that it will work with &P
09:15:17 <gammafunk> and just remove that when you're happy with it
09:16:28 <kenran> gammafunk: I used ORIENT: encompass (just copied it from the vault above)
09:16:48 <gammafunk> oh, your vault is a level for a bazaar?
09:16:52 <kenran> yes
09:17:25 <kenran> the wiki says that &P is used for testing portal vaults, but I wonder how
09:17:33 <gammafunk> well that's the way
09:17:48 <gammafunk> it may be due to something bad in your vault, or something about how bazaar maps place
09:18:03 <gammafunk> I can't look into it right now, but you can pastebin your map and put it in channel
09:18:05 <kenran> I tried three of minmay's bazaar vaults with &P and they didn't work either btw
09:18:20 <gammafunk> yeah, not precisely sure, might be a bazaar thing
09:18:23 <kenran> after that, my saves were corrupted :D
09:19:01 <kenran> ok, if it might be a bazaar thing, I'll just check if other portal vaults work and if they do, I'll forget about it :)
09:19:24 <gammafunk> kenran: to test it in the meantime, you can add WEIGHT: 10000
09:19:58 <gammafunk> then it should nearly always be selected when you load a bazaar (e.g. with & ctrl-r)
09:20:13 <kenran> ah yes, good idea, thanks!
09:20:19 <kenran> I can just &~ to a bazaar I think
09:54:03 <advil> hmm, wonder why when levelgen fails it tries to save if needed
09:54:17 <advil> that seems ...likely... to lead to corrupt saves
09:54:36 <advil> !source dungeon.cc:333
09:54:37 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc#L333
09:56:33 <advil> ah, perhaps it was so the save would reflect the bug
09:56:43 <advil> %git a49dc2bece9d53282d7e1abaac8b37bcc28c4ce9
09:56:43 <Cheibriados> 07kilobyte02 * 0.8.0-a0-5891-ga49dc2b: Die in a less obscure way when dungeon generation is broken. 10(6 years ago, 1 file, 9+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a49dc2bece9d
09:57:01 <advil> hm
10:07:54 <advil> kenran: I think the deal with &P is that placing encompass vaults in the wrong branch can lead to undefined behavior on level gen (which in a regular branch is usually either a crash or an infinite veto loop as stairs can't get placed afaict)
10:09:13 <advil> so yeah, if you use &~1 to go to a bazaar, and place bazaars there, it should always work, but otherwise, all bazaars (all portals?) are encompass vaults so you get problems
10:10:05 <advil> looking into adding some error checking, but it doesn't seem very simple
10:12:00 <advil> even placing depths encompass vaults in D with &P seems problematic
10:14:47 <advil> no idea why &L works though
10:15:37 <advil> well, I guess it just doesn't have all the checks that levelgen has
10:47:14 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-72-gbbb65ab: Warn on placing encompass vaults in the wrong place with &P (kenran) 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bbb65ab2d723
11:09:42 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-72-gbbb65ab (34)
11:22:34 <kenran> advil: Good to know, thanks!
11:24:12 <kenran> I wonder why the doku wiki mentions "&P  "map name"   (for playtesting portal vaults)" specifically
11:27:08 <kenran> So far I found the most comfortable solution to be what gammafunk said: high WEIGHT. then you can &~1 there and then &Ctrl-R to get the level over and over again
11:27:43 <kenran> because creating the vault with &L works, but doesn't place you in the correct starting spot
11:28:11 <advil> well &P seems to work fine if you go to the right portal branch
11:29:15 <advil> it's also possible that at some time &P would have worked elsewhere, the code makes it seem like it might have been intended to be used all over the place
11:38:29 <advil> seems like this is a known issue that people just work around
13:04:09 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-72-gbbb65ab (34)
13:07:37 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
14:25:49 <Eksell> murphy (L27 GhCK) ERROR in 'libutil.cc' at line 366: screen write out of bounds: (-36,4) into (43,4) (Tomb:1)
15:12:17 <advil> !crashlog
15:12:20 <Sequell> 17831. murphy, XL27 GhCK, T:57162 (milestone): http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/murphy/crash-murphy-20170619-182529.txt
15:13:44 <Eksell> murphy (L27 GhCK) ERROR in 'libutil.cc' at line 366: screen write out of bounds: (-36,4) into (43,4) (Abyss:5)
15:16:36 <advil> !crashlog
15:16:37 <Sequell> 17832. murphy, XL27 GhCK, T:63323 (milestone): http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/murphy/crash-murphy-20170619-191325.txt
15:20:14 <advil> no idea
15:24:01 <kenran> is it possible to set trees in water in a vault?
15:24:40 <kenran> I know how it works with KMONS and KFEAT, but t or T are not monsters
15:26:36 <advil> I don't know much about vault design but aren't trees more like walls than the kind of thing that can be in water?
15:26:56 <kenran> yes definitely
15:27:06 <advil> maybe you can do it with bushes or something
15:27:23 <kenran> oh yes, plants are monsters imho so that's not a problem
15:28:04 <kenran> that's my fallback :)
15:29:17 <Eksell> murphy (L27 GhCK) ERROR in 'libutil.cc' at line 366: screen write out of bounds: (-36,4) into (43,4) (Shoals:4)
15:29:38 <advil> !crashlog
15:29:39 <Sequell> 17833. murphy, XL27 GhCK, T:64632 (milestone): http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/murphy/crash-murphy-20170619-192859.txt
15:30:18 <advil> ??eksell
15:30:19 <Sequell> Eksell[1/1]: The {CXC} announcement bot, which uses | as a prefix.
15:30:25 <advil> ??cxc
15:30:26 <Sequell> cXc[1/2]: Server in France: CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM -- ssh port 22, username crawl, uses CAO key (available at http://CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM/crawl/keys/). Webtiles address: http://CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM
17:22:13 -!- mngrif_ is now known as mngrif
17:44:03 <kenran> Is anyone of you interested in "play"testing a bazaar vault I made? It's a prototype, but it might be that the idea is not appreciated and before I put more work into this it would be good to know :)
17:52:35 <Cheibriados> Barachi prefers longer travel using land which is weird 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11114 by Yermak
18:02:58 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.21-a0-72-gbbb65ab (34)
18:03:09 <gammafunk> heh
18:03:14 <gammafunk> I like that bug report title
18:24:10 <ProzacElf> lol
18:24:28 <ProzacElf> "amphibious, but prefers land"
18:39:16 <Cheibriados> Graphics issue: Leda's and lava 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11115 by Yermak
19:03:34 <|amethyst> who locked Jiyvajelly's post on /r/dcss?
19:03:38 <amalloy> me
19:03:43 <|amethyst> that seems like bad form
19:03:54 <amalloy> you think? i can unlock it, i suppose
19:04:40 <|amethyst> I mean, where is someone supposed to complain about tavern being a toxic cesspool?
19:04:43 <|amethyst> because it is
19:05:13 <amalloy> i don't really mind complaining about tavern
19:05:31 <amalloy> i guess i was locking more based on the https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/6i9bgw/toxicity/dj4hixr/ subthread and JJ's history
19:05:49 <amalloy> but perhaps that's not fair
19:06:51 <|amethyst> the Jihad thing was a controversial change, and I think everyone involved knew it would be controversial
19:06:55 <|amethyst> either way
19:08:17 <|amethyst> I disagree with him on that issue, but I think he's being sincere at least
19:09:00 <gammafunk> |amethyst: well we have moderation to make tavern not a toxic cesspool, but jiyvajelly's posting history on dcss is far more toxic than what's on tavern on-average
19:09:33 <gammafunk> I'm not sure what our rules should be for moderation on /r/dcss, we've been very hands-off in the past
19:10:23 <amalloy> i've unlocked the thread, until it gets worse
19:10:36 <ProzacElf> tavern: now a non-toxic cesspool!
19:11:13 <ProzacElf> although yeah, i don't see anything that bad about that particular thread
19:11:45 <|amethyst> gf and am are right that the poster has a troll-y history
19:12:34 <|amethyst> the same post, worded slightly more confrontationally, was removed in /r/roguelikes
19:12:45 <gammafunk> I would say that jiyvajelly is about as bad as onget was
19:12:50 <gammafunk> if not worse
19:13:16 <amalloy> he's the only /r/dcss person i've ever given a temporary ban to
19:13:34 <amalloy> onget was some figure from the past of tavern, i guess?
19:13:42 <gammafunk> not too distant past
19:14:01 <gammafunk> we banned them due to their repeated insults about the game and to the dev team specifically
19:14:14 <|amethyst> I guess one difference is that /r/dcss has voting
19:14:39 <|amethyst> so this post isn't exactly getting in anyone's way
19:14:53 <|amethyst> but, yeah, it is a good question, how much censorship is appropriate
19:15:11 <|amethyst> I think our censorship hasn't done a very good job of making tavern an inviting place
19:15:34 <|amethyst> /r/dcss seems like a much nicer place for new players
19:16:12 <amalloy> yes, i think voting generally does a fine job, and i would much prefer to stay out of the way
19:16:43 <amalloy> the toxicity thread has negative votes and will probably fall off the front page soon, but while it's there people can't help diving in
19:16:48 <gammafunk> Well, we don't have voting on tavern; But I don't particularly want to read GDD posts based on votes
19:17:00 <gammafunk> I'm not sure which subforums on tavern are specifically unwelcoming to new players
19:17:10 <gammafunk> DCA seems reasonably welcoming
19:17:39 <|amethyst> yeah, maybe DCA isn't that bad
19:18:13 <|amethyst> I read it very rarely
19:18:25 <minmay> the DCA and YAVP subforums are great for getting 2 posts of bad advice followed by 30 posts arguing about something the second post said
19:19:26 <minmay> also someone using the phrase "SJW rhetoric" unironically, and complaining about toxicity at the same time, wow
19:19:36 <|amethyst> minmay:  also "triggered"
19:20:25 <|amethyst> err, sorry, "triggering"
19:26:49 <amalloy> oh ha, i was wrong. jiyvajelly isn't the person i gave a temporary ban to after all
19:27:03 <amalloy> i guess i just downvoted his stuff
19:27:03 <|amethyst> was that DepressedCrawlerNNNN ?
19:27:14 <amalloy> no; would you like the answer, or keep guessing?
19:27:20 <|amethyst> I get the two confused a bit
19:27:41 <|amethyst> and am not entirely convinced they are different people, but give them the benefit of the doubt on that
19:28:06 <gammafunk> was it /u/gammafunk?
19:28:11 <|amethyst> I don't have any other guesses, but I guess I also don't need the answer
19:28:33 <gammafunk> my post about "console players are noobs" was contraversial, but I don't care what the devs think
19:28:49 <amalloy> gammafunk i would perm-ban in a heartbeat, but i fear retribution from the cabal of higher-ranked mods
19:29:37 <amalloy> |amethyst: it was some guy being insulting to koboldina
19:29:57 <gammafunk> there are more politics amongst the mods than on game of thrones tbqh
19:29:57 <|amethyst> ah, the anti-trumper?
19:30:06 <amalloy> she must not really like crawl, she's a fake gamer girl who just wants to make $$$$
19:30:28 <|amethyst> def. agree with that ban then
19:30:56 <gammafunk> koboldina definitely wants to make $$$$, that part was accurate
19:31:52 <|amethyst> $$$$ is 72-143 dollars, right?
19:32:48 <gammafunk> needs some NSUBST to thin it out
19:33:58 <ProzacElf> lol
19:34:10 <ProzacElf> that's a lot of $$$$ yo
19:34:10 <minmay> use regular SUBST why are you afraid of binomial distributions
19:34:21 <|amethyst> SUBST: $ = $€¥£     # portfolio diversification
19:35:26 <ProzacElf> https://twitter.com/Wu_Tang_Finance/status/500310817129394176
19:38:26 <gammafunk> minmay: yeah you'd like walking to no gold or 100 piles of gold wouldn't you
19:40:15 <gammafunk> besides, some of the conditional distributions are still binomial
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23:59:38 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.21-a0-72-gbbb65ab (34)