00:00:05 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.20-a0-1040-gfd09691 (34)
01:19:21 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-1040-gfd09691 (34)
01:59:19 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-1040-gfd09691
02:53:20 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-1040-gfd09691
02:54:47 <rumflump> you know that feeling when your favorite relative dies
02:54:58 <rumflump> As you read the scroll of acquirement, it crumbles to dust. You finish putting on your scarf of cold resistance.
02:56:05 <minmay> your fault for not acquiring weapon
02:56:51 <rumflump> I already have my favorite weapon :o
03:12:51 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.20-a0-1040-gfd09691 (34)
03:19:52 <Henzell> pr1on1c (L17 CeFi) ASSERT(in_non_diamond_int(r.start)) in 'ray.cc' at line 217 failed. (Elf:2)
05:09:34 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
07:17:06 <Cheibriados> Stairs can spawn on an acidic floor in Slime Pits 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11031 by Leszczynek
07:51:10 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
08:53:45 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.20-a0-1041-g0db9e8b: Fix a Slime vault being able to place stairs next to acid walls (#11031) 10(79 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0db9e8bca03f
09:09:24 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-1041-g0db9e8b (34)
09:11:32 <advil> !source _travel_depth_munge
09:11:32 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/travel.cc#L2238
09:14:01 <rumflump> !lg * src=cwz
09:14:03 <Sequell> 662876. uht12369 the Sneak (L3 SpEn), slain by a quokka on D:3 on 2017-04-23 13:11:04, with 60 points after 2622 turns and 0:03:01.
10:00:23 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07* 0.20-a0-1042-g33e7df7: Don't keep x,y coords in travel prompt when target isn't the entrance 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 46+ 32-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/33e7df796cd2
10:56:37 <Ge0ff> p - the Grimoire of Dhcmrlchtdj. Is this normal?
11:04:35 <|amethyst> Ge0ff:  it comes from a vault, and is a literary reference
11:05:11 <|amethyst> !source bh_hangedman_babel_library
11:05:12 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des#L1411
11:07:19 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-1043-gbd57889: Fix grammar in a vault comment. 10(18 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bd57889a0db4
11:09:20 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-1042-g33e7df7 (34)
12:09:31 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-1043-gbd57889 (34)
12:21:33 <Rotatell> Grorgnorb (L20 HOMo) ASSERT(!invalid_monster(&mons)) in 'mon-death.cc' at line 1887 failed. (Vaults:2)
12:26:30 <advil> !crashlog
12:26:31 <Sequell> 17170. Grorgnorb, XL20 HOMo, T:57359 (milestone): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Grorgnorb/crash-Grorgnorb-20170423-162125.txt
12:32:52 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
12:41:53 <advil> / If you are no longer dying, you must be dead.
12:55:50 <advil> %git 42870f
12:55:50 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 * 0.17-a0-1785-g42870f9: Give Demonic Guardians Fedhas-style protection from player ranged attacks 10(1 year, 8 months ago, 6 files, 52+ 43-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/42870f950378
12:56:38 <advil> %git 38a25a45
12:56:38 <Cheibriados> 07ebering02 {Medar} * 0.17-a0-2089-g38a25a4: Make hyperactive ballistomyecetes time out. 10(1 year, 7 months ago, 2 files, 12+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/38a25a45d087
13:05:26 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.20-a0-1043-gbd57889 (34)
13:08:20 <advil> that crash has something to do with a ballisto spore being dead already on the same turn it times out, but I can't reproduce it
15:55:33 -!- yesno__ is now known as yesno
16:05:28 <Lasty> !tell floodkiller just finished playing a gnoll, and 1) they are indeed very easy; 2) the xp restriction felt more meaningful than I expected; 3) but it wasn't as meaningful as it felt; 4) to make them genuinely harder in the late game, how would you feel about giving them -10% hp?
16:05:28 <Sequell> Lasty: OK, I'll let floodkiller know.
16:09:28 <Floodkiller> Lasty: I'm worried that just giving -10% HP band-aids the issues present in your #3
16:09:28 <Sequell> Floodkiller: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
16:10:25 <Floodkiller> which I noticed when I was looking through the won games: roughly half preferred to focus 1-2 skills (usually Fighting) after doing some splashing, and a couple basically went full Trog skilling
16:13:11 <Floodkiller> and that was after excluding games with more than 3 runes
16:14:47 <Lasty> Floodkiller: currently it goes down to -6 apt; maybe it should go to -10?
16:14:58 <Lasty> -6 is a slog, but -10 is a huge slog
16:15:43 <Lasty> I do think that minmay was basically right that if you really want people to need to splash around a lot of skills and also have a bad late game, low stats are the way to go
16:15:47 <Lasty> like really low stats
16:16:13 <Lasty> Like, I had no trouble rocking plate because I got a lot of armor and a good plate and lots of ?EA
16:16:26 <Lasty> but if my starting str has been ~5 instead of ~16 . . .
16:18:23 <nikheizen> the quest to create a mu-tier race which can drink potions?
16:18:39 <Floodkiller> yeah, most of my brainstorming on alternative systems focused on that have either boiled down to either low locked stats or a way of forcing all skills to stay at the same level
16:19:18 <Lasty> I'm a bit worried that the latter would make every game w/ the race feel the same
16:20:52 <Floodkiller> yeah, and low locked stats will just encourage players to focus on things that abuse the skill level without relying on stats (like pain brand)
16:23:39 <rumflump> abuse is kinda negative framing
16:24:15 <rumflump> making the most of your species is a good thing, especially if it makes you do a thing that you normally don't do on other species
16:25:49 <Floodkiller> maybe abuse is the wrong word, true; however, what I imply is that games will also be samey because the player can't really utilize anything that relies on having good Str/Int/Dex
16:26:37 <rumflump> I was gonna make a species that had no natural str/int/dex growth, but gave you a choice every 2 levels
16:27:33 <rumflump> if you spread it around you'd be at a disadvantage to most races, but you could make one stat be higher than normal species get
16:27:42 <rumflump> /theorycraft
16:28:05 <Floodkiller> demigods kind of have something like that already; their random growth is added into the player choice
16:28:05 <MarvinPA> isn't that literally demigods
16:28:53 <rumflump> kinda, yeah
16:29:10 <Lasty> Floodkiller: yeah, I don't think it would necessarily be bad if pain brand / summons were extra good for newgnolls because of their low stats; the low stat and skill requirements on them make them good for everyone
16:30:48 <MarvinPA> i mean that doesn't sound at all like a good thing to design a species around
16:31:37 <MarvinPA> if the whole point is that they focus entirely on low-investment things with a high payout when really those are things that should probably not work that with
16:31:41 <MarvinPA> that way*
16:47:35 <Lasty> MarvinPA: But the point wouldn't be to make a species that focuses on cheap investments, it would be to make a species that doesn't get a lot out of its investments. That there are some things that all characters get a lot out of with low investment is a problem with crawl in general, not that idea
16:47:45 <Lasty> Not to say that makes the idea inherently good
16:47:52 <Lasty> but I don't think that's an argument against it
16:49:00 <MarvinPA> well while those things exist, this hypothetical species is going to be overwhelmingly focused on those
16:53:01 <Floodkiller> in response to the changing -6 to -10 thing, columns AF, AI, AL (compared to the current system, column AO) on the spreadsheet I made should show off the XP difference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UpAgbzL8OENPac_ubosSXxroNSN8llOtZWkuAUtyXX8/edit#gid=0
16:53:20 <Floodkiller> AI doesn't go all the way to -10, but it should show a rough example
16:55:28 -!- hittemvvvhard is now known as asdfasdf
16:57:00 -!- asdfasdf is now known as hittemvvvhard
17:10:27 <johnstein> ^status
17:10:28 <Rotatell> 56 Crawlers. CBRO disk usage=93% (135GB) | RAM usage=46% (4GB)| uptime/CPU= 17:10:28 up 51 days, 21:48,  8 users,  load average: 1.00, 0.93, 0.87 (4 Cores) http://status.berotato.org
17:27:59 -!- rumflump is now known as chatter29
17:28:11 -!- chatter29 is now known as rumflump
18:02:32 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.20-a0-1043-gbd57889 (34)
18:52:00 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
19:04:36 <minmay> <Floodkiller> maybe abuse is the wrong word, true; however, what I imply is that games will also be samey because the player can't really utilize anything that relies on having good Str/Int/Dex
19:04:53 <minmay> is there anything that relies on that other than heavy armour casting and high EV?
19:06:12 <minmay> also that suggestion wasn't intended to give them a bad late game (it wouldn't)
19:18:20 <gammafunk> how fun would locked low stats and amazing apts be?
19:18:35 <gammafunk> I imagine you could do some pretty wacky things with it, at least
19:19:32 <gammafunk> I'm not too familiar with what weapons feel like at really low stats, I guess I've done 1h melee with a DE mage, and it didn't feel too bad
19:19:47 <gammafunk> however that was only low str, not low dex
19:20:08 <gammafunk> !lg . won min=str DE x=str
19:20:10 <Sequell> 2. [str=6] gammafunk the Imperceptible (L25 DEEn of Zin), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2016-05-17 04:30:55, with 1449072 points after 88567 turns and 7:01:42.
19:20:16 <gammafunk> wow
19:20:18 <gammafunk> !lg . won min=str DE x=str -log
19:20:19 <Sequell> 2. gammafunk, XL25 DEEn, T:88567: https://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/morgue/gammafunk/morgue-gammafunk-20160517-043055.txt
19:20:56 <gammafunk> I did a ton of melee with that char and I don't recall it being too bad
19:24:38 <gammafunk> ??ring mail
19:24:38 <Sequell> ring mail[1/1]: 5AC, 7ER.
19:24:42 <gammafunk> ??tla
19:24:42 <Sequell> troll leather armour[1/1]: Speeds your regeneration by 0.4 HP per turn. All races but felids, draconians, and octopodes can wear this. 4AC, 4ER. Does not work on deep dwarves. Can be enchanted up to +4.
19:31:19 <kramin> !seen Lasty
19:31:19 <Sequell> I last saw Lasty at Sun Apr 23 21:02:20 2017 UTC (2h 28m 59s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Leaving.'.
19:31:47 <kramin> what about just lowering the point where gnolls apts start to drop
19:31:54 <kramin> from 7 to 6 say
19:36:47 <kramin> maybe in addition to dropping the -6 limit to -10
19:52:06 <ProzacElf> i mean, having amazing stats was sort of the only reason to play HE
19:52:14 <ProzacElf> and is still the main reason to play dg or take chei
19:53:30 <alexjurkiewicz> kramin: thanks
19:54:05 <alexjurkiewicz> someone merge the zin change pls...
19:56:06 <kramin> also RE: Ogres
19:56:26 <kramin> what about giving them 0 or 1 maces apt and then changing GCs
19:56:46 <kramin> seems like their maces apt got nerfed because GCs are OP
19:56:59 <kramin> isn't it better to just nerf GCs?
19:57:29 <kramin> I guess it's a bit more work :P
19:58:19 <kramin> I had an idea the other day where you change GCs to be 30 damage 2.2 delay, a bit like a mini dark maul
19:59:12 <kramin> makes them worse than before at lower skill levels but they have even higher potential
20:00:24 <CanOfWorms> you do realize that 30/2.2 is better than 20/1.6 right
20:00:34 <kramin> not really
20:00:53 <kramin> ??GC
20:00:53 <Sequell> giant club[1/2]: (maces & flails; -6 acc / 20 dam / 1.6 base delay / 0.7 min delay; two handed). A giant lump of wood. The only playable races that can wield giant clubs are Ogres and Trolls.
20:01:01 <CanOfWorms> 30/2.2 is 1.36 dpt
20:01:04 <kramin> at 18 skill
20:01:06 <CanOfWorms> 20/1.6 is 1.2 dpt
20:01:17 <kramin> oh true
20:01:18 <CanOfWorms> 1.25
20:01:23 <kramin> still better at 0
20:01:35 <kramin> increase the delay a bit then
20:01:40 <kramin> ??great mace
20:01:40 <Sequell> great mace[1/1]: (maces & flails; -4 acc / 17 dam / 1.7 base delay / 0.7 min delay; two handed). An enormous metal war club, of great cumbrousness. The largest mace most playable races can wield. Ogres and Trolls can wield giant (spiked) clubs too.
20:01:51 <kramin> so great mace is 1
20:01:54 <kramin> dpt
20:01:58 <CanOfWorms> yes
20:02:01 <kramin> hmm
20:02:14 <CanOfWorms> well, 10 dpt actually but whatever
20:02:22 <CanOfWorms> values should be multiplied by 19
20:02:24 <CanOfWorms> *10
20:02:28 <kramin> yeah
20:02:50 <kramin> !calc 30/2.6
20:02:50 <Sequell> 11.54
20:02:52 <CanOfWorms> you'd have to make the new value 28/2.2 to have barely better
20:03:27 <kramin> !calc 20/0.7
20:03:28 <Sequell> 28.57
20:03:36 <kramin> !calc 30/1.5
20:03:37 <Sequell> 20
20:03:48 <kramin> !calc 17/0.8
20:03:48 <Sequell> 21.25
20:04:03 <CanOfWorms> also the problem with 2.2 is that the min delay is not reachable
20:04:12 <kramin> not a problem
20:04:17 <kramin> maybe 2.6 delay
20:04:29 <kramin> a bit better than gmace at 0 skill
20:04:40 <kramin> gets worse at skill near 20
20:04:53 <kramin> !calc 17/0.7
20:04:54 <Sequell> 24.29
20:05:07 <kramin> !calc 30/1.25
20:05:08 <Sequell> 24
20:05:19 <kramin> oh
20:05:19 <kramin> 2.6 is too much
20:05:19 <CanOfWorms> lol
20:05:19 <CanOfWorms> STRICTLY WORSE
20:05:21 <kramin> 2.4 :P
20:05:51 <kramin> !calc 30/1.05
20:05:52 <Sequell> 28.57
20:06:03 <kramin> eh
20:06:11 <kramin> hardly worth using over a gmace still
20:06:17 <CanOfWorms> yes
20:06:22 <kramin> 2.2 is ok I think
20:06:41 <kramin> sure it's better at literally 0 skill
20:06:53 <kramin> but quickly gets surpassed I think
20:06:54 <kramin> hmm
20:06:58 <kramin> what about 6 skill
20:07:07 <kramin> !calc 30/1.9
20:07:08 <Sequell> 15.79
20:07:15 <kramin> !calc 20/1.4
20:07:16 <Sequell> 14.29
20:07:25 <kramin> 10 skill
20:07:33 <kramin> !calc 30/1.2
20:07:34 <Sequell> 25
20:07:36 <kramin> oops
20:07:45 <kramin> !calc 30/1.7
20:07:46 <Sequell> 17.65
20:07:53 <kramin> !calc 20/1.2
20:07:55 <Sequell> 16.67
20:08:01 <kramin> ok maybe not
20:10:08 <kramin> still, 2.2 scales a lot worse with enchantment
20:10:29 <CanOfWorms> !calc 30/1.2
20:10:29 <Sequell> 25
20:10:33 <CanOfWorms> !calc 17/0.7
20:10:34 <Sequell> 24.29
20:12:33 <kramin> it's just the nature of crawl's weapon mechanics that a higher base damage weapon is always better at 0 skill
20:12:43 <kramin> unless it has complete garbage base delay
20:14:50 <alexjurkiewicz> that's ignoring accuracy, which I think is generally important at 0 skill
20:15:39 <kramin> true
20:15:39 <kramin> ??gc
20:15:39 <Sequell> giant club[1/2]: (maces & flails; -6 acc / 20 dam / 1.6 base delay / 0.7 min delay; two handed). A giant lump of wood. The only playable races that can wield giant clubs are Ogres and Trolls.
20:15:57 <kramin> could reduce it to -8 even
20:16:08 <minmay> base accuracy differences aren't high enough to offset the damage differences even at 0 skill
20:16:22 <minmay> except against adders in rare cases
20:17:42 <minmay> you could increase base accuracy differences a lot to make that happen with more monsters than just adders and geckos, but you would still want to swap to a large weapon for all the (near) 0 EV monsters
20:29:18 <alexjurkiewicz> I re-suggest removing GC entirely
20:30:03 <kramin> why?
20:30:12 <kramin> oh and keep GSC?
20:30:14 <kramin> ??GSC
20:30:14 <Sequell> giant spiked club[1/4]: (maces & flails; -7 acc / 22 dam / 1.9 base delay / 0.7 min delay; two handed). A giant lump of wood with sharp spikes at one end. The only playable races that can wield giant spiked clubs are Ogres and Trolls.
20:30:19 <kramin> reasonable
20:31:21 <kramin> not a lot of reason for them both to exist
20:46:02 <alexjurkiewicz> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/dungeon-classes
21:12:03 <Jorgrell> toastedzergling (L21 HOBe) ASSERT(!invalid_monster(&mons)) in 'mon-death.cc' at line 1887 failed. (Vaults:4)
21:13:15 <minmay> http://explosm.net/comics/3486/
21:28:02 <Rotatell> Akett (L12 FoFi) ERROR in 'dungeon.cc' at line 453: invalid map border at (25,0): granite_statue (D:12)
21:56:10 -!- Raine|2 is now known as Raine357
22:04:21 <minmay> !crash akett
22:04:22 <Sequell> 12. Akett, XL12 FoFi, T:11281 (milestone): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Akett/crash-Akett-20170424-012745.txt
22:05:29 <minmay> welp, that's something to add to the vault docs
22:05:51 <minmay> !vault minmay_the_grid_triangle_9x9_line_8
22:05:51 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/the_grid.des#L560
22:07:02 <minmay> if a vault with non-float ORIENT gets placed at the very edge of the map, and one of the squares at the edge of the map gets a statue on it, that happens
22:09:02 <minmay> !source docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt:138
22:09:03 <Sequell> Can't find docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt.
22:09:14 <minmay> !source ../docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt:138
22:09:14 <Sequell> Bad filename: ../docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt
22:10:29 <minmay> the diagrams in syntax.txt for ORIENT: imply that the dungeon builder makes a layer of walls insulating your vault from the map edge; this is apparently not true
22:11:39 <minmay> so it looks like line_8 needs a layer of rock walls added to the edges
22:11:48 <minmay> (except the bottom edge)
22:12:41 <minmay> I think the_grid_ultimate should be fine as-is since encompass vaults get centered, right?
22:20:52 -!- Mayoi is now known as erkni
22:20:58 -!- erkni is now known as erkin
23:16:40 <Cheibriados> Trap interaction with animate skeleton 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11032 by andreas