00:04:00 <advil> til you can reinforce flame clouds
00:05:43 <twelwe> how are the chat vibes here?
00:14:41 <Brannock> very powerful, yet slow
00:14:43 <Brannock> much like cheibriados
00:16:18 <rumflump> fr: Cheibriados responding to private queries
00:17:34 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07* 0.20-a0-940-g1ecfa5a: Fix conjure flame on self messaging (Avigdore) 10(11 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1ecfa5a77296
00:17:42 <advil> chei works in pm?
00:17:57 <advil> I use it all the time
00:19:11 <geekosaur> yeh
00:19:19 <geekosaur> I wonder if they meant gretell
00:20:09 <advil> ah
00:21:23 <rumflump> I mean the uh
00:21:31 <rumflump> %git :/bamboozle
00:21:31 <Cheibriados> Could not find commit :/bamboozle (git returned 128)
00:21:39 <geekosaur> works for me
00:21:40 <advil> yeah, %git should work in pm
00:21:42 <rumflump> I swear that didn't work last I tried
00:21:56 <rumflump> oh, I tried !source foo last time
00:22:06 <geekosaur> that's seqell
00:22:09 <advil> you just have to remember which bot does which :-)
00:22:10 <geekosaur> *sequell
00:22:24 <rumflump> yeah, it was code, so I tried pming the code bot
00:22:30 <rumflump> but it uses a bang, so that means sequell
00:22:32 <rumflump> whoops
00:22:53 <geekosaur> also what won't work is when sequell responds to a request by asking another bot (like &watch) because it asks you and the other bot isn't in your /query :)
00:24:15 <rumflump> I'm still a little fuzzy on whether ! or & is the prefix to use for the more broad query in some cases
00:24:39 <geekosaur> & generally means sequell is looking it up, when a & form of a ! query eists
00:25:23 <geekosaur> but ! has a lot of stuff on it, and it's not all Sequell (CAO's Henzell uses ! commands, so does varmin (arena bot)
00:25:53 <geekosaur> so it's very confusing and you pretty much have to remember on a command-by-command basis
00:26:01 <rumflump> so &watch is more general than !watch?
00:26:17 <advil> I mostly learned this stuff in another channel with a single relay bot that takes care of everything
00:26:24 <geekosaur> yes
00:26:28 <rumflump> kramell ftw
00:26:30 <advil> but sometimes you have to add extra punctuation there to get it to forward
00:26:40 <advil> this one isn't kramell
00:26:47 <rumflump> !
00:27:25 <advil> it's called OCTOTROG
00:27:44 <advil> but similar idea
00:27:49 <rumflump> intimidating
00:28:29 <rumflump> ooh, does octotrog ignore your prefix and just spam all eight other bots with the query, using proper prefixes, and return what happens?
00:28:38 <advil> heh, I don't think it's that bad
00:29:06 <advil> it's written in javascript via some weird js paradigm though so whenever I've looked at the code I have no clue what's going on
00:30:47 <advil> https://github.com/neckro/OCTOTROG
00:31:48 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.20-a0-939-g04f5055 (34)
00:33:10 <advil> I believe there might be promises involved
00:34:25 <rumflump> let the javascript dev worry about it
01:10:33 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-940-g1ecfa5a (34)
01:16:22 -!- tensorpu- is now known as tensorpudding
01:31:04 <gammafunk> man, wonder just how many crawl relay bots have been written
01:31:19 <gammafunk> I've written three and I don't even know of them all
01:47:15 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
01:52:01 -!- Marvin is now known as Guest46738
02:06:06 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/505 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/505
02:06:06 <Cheibriados> 03yrmvgh02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/505 * 0.20-a0-941-g2588695: allow monsters to ignore AC if player is incap 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2588695054ea
03:23:36 <Cheibriados> 03SteelNeuron02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/502 * 0.20-a0-930-g26461f6: Fix dizzy status decay 10(in the future, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/26461f6b0433
03:24:04 <SteelNeuron> !tell Brannock fyi: Fixed the decay problem with dizzy
03:24:05 <Sequell> SteelNeuron: OK, I'll let brannock know.
03:28:48 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.20-a0-940-g1ecfa5a (34)
03:52:09 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
06:21:42 -!- Fin is now known as Guest29269
08:59:29 <Cheibriados> WJC: long walk tries to wall-jump when ends at a wall. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10986 by Yermak
09:14:59 <Cheibriados> WJC: no warning when wall-jumping into Zot trap. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10987 by Yermak
09:24:14 <Yermak> Trying to attack while whirlwinding or lunging with a launcher is a bit weaird.
09:42:37 <Cheibriados> caustic shrike (09b) | Spd: 20 | HD: 18 | HP: 86-126 | AC/EV: 8/18 | Dam: 3608(acid:7d3) | see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(80), 05fire, 02cold, 08blind | XP: 4621 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal.

09:42:37 <advil> %??caustic shrike
09:42:44 <Cheibriados> stone giant (15C) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 73-102 | AC/EV: 12/2 | Dam: 45 | 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(80), 12drown | XP: 1422 | Sz: Giant | Int: human.

09:42:44 <advil> %??stone giant
10:01:55 <advil> !source mon-pick.cc:26
10:01:55 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc#L26
10:03:07 <advil> I'm a little confused about dungeon vs depths there
10:03:14 <advil> but maybe I don't fully understand how this works
10:03:41 <advil> am I reading it right that depths has a way lower ood cap than dungeon?
10:05:11 <advil> I guess those all go the opposite of what I would have expected, but they're used in lines like "place.depth = min(place.depth, branch_ood_cap(place.branch));", which seems like bigger numbers allow bigger oods
10:05:52 <advil> so tomb/crypt basically can't get oods??
10:05:55 <advil> I must be confused
10:07:08 <advil> maybe those numbers are within-branch depth, rather than absdepth
10:22:10 <Cheibriados> WJC, wall-jump issues: unneeded screen redraw. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10989 by Yermak
10:22:10 <Cheibriados> WJC, wall-jump issues: checks order 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10988 by Yermak
11:58:54 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
13:04:50 <amalloy> advil: OOD spawns in D can be selected from entries in the spawn table as deep as D:27. OOD spawns in tomb can be selected from entries in the spawn table as deep as tomb:5
13:06:53 <amalloy> see the lists in mon-pick-data.h
13:07:38 <amalloy> or like...ugh, i think it's more complicated than that
13:08:06 <amalloy> but the point is that there's a separate spawn table for each branch, and the numbers in branch_ood_cap are relative to the branch, not global
13:26:32 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.20-a0-940-g1ecfa5a (34)
14:00:50 -!- mroth_ is now known as mroth
14:44:12 <gammafunk> |amethyst: this screenshot is quite hard to see, but there's a weird display issue with the a character that has that diacritic mark: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/205316046230388737/297078084870602752/image.jpg
14:44:33 <gammafunk> the 'a' displays a space to the right, which displaces the wall glyph
14:44:43 <gammafunk> &rc koumakan
14:44:45 <Sequell> http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/rcfiles/crawl-git/Koumakan.rc
14:46:37 <gammafunk> apparently an X11 6x10 bitmap font
15:14:14 * geekosaur wonders what terminal that is
15:15:10 <geekosaur> you can get odd stuff like that if the terminal emulator checks font metrics and decides one character exceeds its bounding box, *and* it has a toggle to make such characters double-width
15:16:29 <geekosaur> ...or just does that by default. (and it does look to me like it's using an extra column and might therefore be slightly too big. possibly fake-bold? the blooming from the picture doesn't help)
15:16:52 <gammafunk> oh, good, geekosaur is here
15:16:59 <gammafunk> [2:10 PM] Koumakan: I am running urxvt ssh on my pocket chip with the x11 6x10 font
15:17:48 <gammafunk> apparently it's the corpse cross utf going though something like CP437
15:18:29 <gammafunk> where the first byte is seen as â and then a subsequent byte is seen as NBSP
15:18:57 <gammafunk> user doesn't seem to have a locale specified
15:19:39 <geekosaur> might see what urxvt option "-letsp -1" does
15:22:04 <geekosaur> I'm using a VTE-based terminal, and a bunch of my unicode overrides (and a few builtins, like the glyph for trees) go over a character cell. VTE overprints the next cell in that case, but some terminals will consume an extra cell like that
15:23:56 <geekosaur> and yes, it looks like this is a known urxvt-ism and the urxvt devs consider it a bug in the font rather than something they should permit configuring
15:24:41 <geekosaur> http://lists.schmorp.de/pipermail/rxvt-unicode/2014q4/002043.html
15:25:35 <geekosaur> so the fix is "don't use urxvt or only use fonts whose characters are guaranteed to fit in a urxvt character cell"
15:26:06 <geekosaur> there's nothing that can be done at the level of crawl, this is hardwired urxvt behavior
15:26:18 <geekosaur> (aside from not specifying such characters)
15:27:15 <geekosaur> or possibly futz with -letsp to see if you can make it fit
15:30:30 <geekosaur> as for why it's using the metric for the correct character and then mapping to â, I couldn't say but probably something similar in urxvt
15:30:56 <geekosaur> this kind of crap is why I used urxvt for about half a day and then removed it except for testing when other people run into weirdness :/
15:56:41 <gammafunk> yeah, user eventually just used their RC to remap the glyph
16:15:29 <G-Flex> should felids have Gourmand checked off in the % screen? currently they do not
16:15:48 <G-Flex> possibly because it's granted by carnivore 3 and not gourmand specifically? but it has that effect
16:21:17 <geekosaur> iirc there is a subtle difference between carnivore 3 and gourmand, because of trolls?
16:21:52 <geekosaur> or maybe that got changed and that's why it acts like gourmand without saying so
16:29:04 <rumflump> %git :/jump attack
16:29:04 <Cheibriados> 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.19-a0-1589-ge51c82a: Remove jump attack (icon) 10(7 months ago, 9 files, 2+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e51c82a67a26
16:29:12 <G-Flex> carnivore 3 seems to include the gourmand effect, but if there's a subtle effect I don't know about it
16:29:18 <rumflump> %git 2 :/jump attack
16:29:18 <Cheibriados> Could not find commit 2 :/jump attack (git returned 128)
16:29:37 <amalloy> !gitgrep 2 jump attack
16:29:38 <Sequell> %git HEAD^{/jump attack}^^{/jump attack}
16:29:38 <Cheibriados> 07Lasty02 * 0.15-a0-2337-g40f1b26: Ru: cut jump attack noise in half. 10(2 years, 8 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/40f1b263da9e
16:37:24 <geekosaur> G-Flex, it used to be that trolls had carnivore 3 but couldn't eat rotting chunks without gourmand, whereas other races got to eat rotting chunks, or something like that. I don't know offhand if that got simplified but I recall discussion of it
16:38:55 <geekosaur> first ghouls were the special case, then trolls became the special case, something like that
16:42:25 -!- tsujin_ is now known as tsujin
16:42:32 -!- kryft_ is now known as kryft
16:42:41 <G-Flex> rotten chunks haven't existed for a while, so I'm not sure what gourmand implies that carnivore 3 doesn't at this point
16:43:20 <rumflump> able to eat bread rations?
16:43:30 <rumflump> thanks amalloy
16:44:08 <rumflump> !gitgrep 3 jump attack
16:44:09 <Sequell> %git HEAD^{/jump attack}^^{/jump attack}^^{/jump attack}
16:44:09 <Cheibriados> 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.15-a0-1742-g0ba0a0b: Partially refactor jump attack 10(2 years, 9 months ago, 1 file, 29+ 22-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0ba0a0bc981d
16:44:12 <G-Flex> gourmand doesn't give you the ability to eat bread rations if you can't already, does it
16:45:56 <rumflump> no, I just mean gourmand doesn't take away bread eating like carni3 does
16:46:44 <gammafunk> look at that
16:46:55 <gammafunk> PF ruining my sacred code
16:51:45 <G-Flex> rumflump: I said that carnivore 3 implies gourmand, not the other way around
16:52:36 <G-Flex> gourmand lets you eat chunks (assuming they are edible to you) at any time
16:52:40 <G-Flex> carnivore 3 includes that
18:15:40 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.20-a0-940-g1ecfa5a (34)
18:19:59 <|amethyst> gourmand also results in a 1/1000 chance of telling you a chunk "tastes like chicken!" instead of "tastes great."
18:20:00 <Sequell> |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
18:20:49 <amalloy> wow, secret tech
18:20:49 <|amethyst> !tell Bcadren yes, that shock serpent thing sounds like a bug, please report it on Mantis if you haven't yet
18:20:50 <Sequell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let bcadren know.
18:21:11 <|amethyst> (shock serpent explosions deal damage through doors apparently)
18:21:28 <|amethyst> !tell Bcadren (assuming the door was closed of course :)
18:21:29 <Sequell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let bcadren know.
19:07:54 <amalloy> |amethyst: even if the door is closed it's not necessarily a bug, right? consider, eg, a firestorm aimed at x, which will kill the serpent S:
19:07:54 <amalloy> #####
19:07:54 <amalloy> #S#x#
19:07:54 <amalloy> #...#
19:08:10 <amalloy> and that's a solid wall
19:08:58 <amalloy> that is, my understanding is that crawl's explosions are built to need "within radius" and "unobstructed path", but not necessarily los
19:10:46 <|amethyst> hm
19:11:32 <|amethyst> wonder why that works, but this doesn't:
19:11:36 <|amethyst> #####
19:11:40 <|amethyst> #S#x#
19:11:43 <|amethyst> #.#.#
19:11:45 <|amethyst> #...#
19:12:23 <amalloy> |amethyst: it probably just does a breadth-first traversal from x up to distance 2
19:12:29 <|amethyst> ah, yeah
19:13:31 <advil> do shock serpents still explode?
19:13:33 <|amethyst> in any event, I assumed bcadren was talking about something like
19:13:37 <|amethyst> ...S...
19:13:41 <|amethyst> ###+###
19:13:45 <|amethyst> ...@...
19:13:58 <amalloy> |amethyst: sure, he probably was. just that if we didn't hear about the layout directly, we can't necessarily be sure
19:14:45 <|amethyst> good point
19:15:02 <|amethyst> !tell Bcadren and if you don't mind, include a screenshot or diagram
19:15:03 <Sequell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let bcadren know.
19:16:17 <amalloy> |amethyst: actually i just repro'd it with your layout
19:16:46 <amalloy> might have been a more productive way to start, rather than mentioning that it might have been this other weird thing
19:17:13 <|amethyst> !source shock_serpent_discharge_fineff::fire
19:17:14 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/fineff.cc#L446
19:17:22 <|amethyst> just cares about distance
19:17:36 <|amethyst> (and it's not an explosion, since it only affects the oppressor)
19:18:21 <|amethyst> hm
19:18:41 <|amethyst> amalloy:  how did you damage the serpent through the wall?
19:18:47 <amalloy> |amethyst: prism
19:18:50 <|amethyst> aha
19:19:35 <amalloy> |amethyst: incidentally, i have been confused numerous times by which actors are damaged by shock serpent explosion, because it is rendered as an explosion
19:19:35 <amalloy> like, does it hit its allies? my allies?
19:19:40 <|amethyst> I don't think it is anymore
19:19:51 <|amethyst> at least, I don't see anything here that would do any drawing
19:19:57 <|amethyst> and I didn't see one when I tried
19:20:02 <|amethyst> in console
19:20:17 <amalloy> i guess you're right
19:20:37 <|amethyst> ah
19:20:49 <|amethyst> %git 2e40b1f4
19:20:49 <Cheibriados> 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.18-a0-1427-g2e40b1f: Simplify shock serpent discharges 10(1 year, 1 month ago, 3 files, 36+ 58-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2e40b1f43b34
19:20:50 <amalloy> i was going to say: instead of not rendering it at all, we could render a beam. but i guess that is misleading too, if the beam paths through other actors
19:24:23 <|amethyst> could animate a * on top of whatever is hit, like static discharge
19:24:30 <advil> I'm pretty sure it looks like a beam in console now
19:24:34 <advil> beam-ish
19:25:31 <advil> also, trivia: til there is exactly one monster species that worships ely
19:25:32 <|amethyst> advil: static discharge?
19:26:49 <advil> maybe...I haven't actually seen it in a few months :)
19:27:10 <|amethyst> yeah, I guess it probably is a beam
19:27:31 <|amethyst> which is effectively the same for static discharge, since it doesn't jump empty space
19:28:05 <|amethyst> advil:  looks like also only one monster that worships Zin, outside of vault definitions
19:28:34 <advil> yeah, true
19:28:38 <advil> somehow the ely one surprised me more
19:28:51 <amalloy> advil: shock serpents have a beam attack, in addition to their retaliation thing
19:29:08 <amalloy> i think the retaliation doesn't render as anything
19:29:19 <|amethyst> amalloy:  when advil was talking about beams, that was about static discharge, not shock serpent
19:29:29 <advil> oh, or I was confused
19:29:55 <amalloy> i'm probably confused too
19:29:55 <advil> yeah, retaliation doesn't seem to render at all
19:30:15 <advil> couldn't replicate anything happening through a door fwiw
19:30:17 <|amethyst> I definitely think drawing it as a full beam from snake to oppressor is bad, because of things in the way
19:30:25 <amalloy> agree
19:30:35 <advil> maybe that happening would depend on timing within a turn
19:30:57 <|amethyst> advil:  were you using prism, too?
19:31:09 <advil> no
19:31:12 <advil> I should read more
19:31:32 <|amethyst> if it's a normal summon hurting the snake, the summon will take the retaliation
19:32:52 <advil> oh yeah, I did replicate it by using fulminant prism
19:33:12 <advil> You hear an explosion!
19:33:13 <advil> Monster: something; Damage: pre-AC: 19; post-AC: 18; post-resist: 18
19:33:13 <advil> Activity interrupt: message
19:33:15 <advil> The air sparks with electricity, shocking you!
19:34:16 <advil> it was exactly the sort of layout you thought, |amethyst
19:41:16 <|amethyst> yeah, I reproduced it as well
19:53:14 <advil> do shapeshifters start with a constant hd?
19:53:26 <advil> I had vaguely thought otherwise but I can find no evidence for that
19:54:12 <advil> *every* time I look at something new in crawlcode it turns out to be incredibly complicated
19:55:45 <|amethyst> they start with 7 HD but polymorph immediately on creation, which can shift their HD up or down
19:55:50 <advil> right
19:55:55 <advil> but it's only up or down 1, right?
19:56:19 <advil> the backstory is that I'm trying to figure out how a player got a shapeshifter caustic shrike on D12
19:57:10 <advil> glowing shapeshifter + 8 unlucky shifts is the best I can come up with right now
19:57:29 <|amethyst> @??caustic shrike
19:57:30 <Gretell> caustic shrike (09b) | Spd: 20 | HD: 18 | HP: 86-126 | AC/EV: 8/18 | Dam: 3608(acid:7d3) | see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(80), 05fire, 02cold, 08blind | XP: 4621 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal.
19:58:44 <|amethyst> it's not necessarily by 1, but usually is
19:59:44 <|amethyst> going up by 8 seems extremely unlikely though, unless along the way it polymorphed into a different holiness with fewer target monsters
19:59:51 <|amethyst> @??hell hound
19:59:51 <Gretell> hell hound (10h) | Spd: 15 | HD: 5 | HP: 22-32 | AC/EV: 6/13 | Dam: 13 | 05demonic, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(20), 04fire+++, 03poison, 08blind, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 146 | Sp: fire breath (3d10) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: Medium | Int: animal.
20:00:55 <|amethyst> or if it polymorphed while on lava or water, which greatly reduces the number of viable targets
20:00:57 <advil> yeah, I was just thinking about that case
20:01:47 <amalloy> ??shapeshifter[hd
20:01:47 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled shapeshifter[hd in my learndb.
20:02:09 <|amethyst> !readall shapeshifter
20:02:10 <Sequell> Nasty creature which tends to turn into whatever creature you are least equipped to handle. Kill quickly, or drain to death, as polymorphing heals. If you see a missile-loving monster that doesn't shoot you, it's probably a shapeshifter. / There are usually a few in Vault:5. Specifically, next to loot. And, given time they WILL turn into azure jellies and eat your precious loot. / They turned into...
20:02:12 <advil> ah the restriction to 1 more seems to be only for RANDOM_TOUGHER_MONSTER
20:02:37 <|amethyst> ?
20:03:09 <amalloy> that learndb entry doesn't seem to say anything about how they choose polymorph targets
20:03:16 <advil> !source mon-poly.cc:490
20:03:16 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-poly.cc#L490
20:03:28 <advil> for RANDOM_MONSTER it's completely different
20:03:58 <advil> also RANDOM_TOUGHER_MONSTER may be completely unused
20:04:19 <|amethyst> yeah, I think that was polymoth?
20:05:40 <|amethyst> oh, right, relax might get incremented every time through the loop
20:05:42 <advil> !source _is_poly_power_unsuitable
20:05:42 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-poly.cc#L172
20:06:05 <advil> it has a chance
20:06:05 <|amethyst> yeah
20:06:10 <|amethyst> but if it rolls, say, "goblin"
20:06:16 <|amethyst> then "orc"
20:06:22 <|amethyst> and so on a few dozen times
20:06:39 <|amethyst> there's a decent chance relax will have been incremented before it hits upon one of the right HD
20:09:14 <advil> so it seems that the answer is, bad luck (or other causes of ood spawn) + bad luck + circumstances
20:09:44 <advil> (also, don't fight shapeshifters over lava)
20:11:31 <|amethyst> just made 100 shapeshifters
20:11:55 <|amethyst> of those, 2 were 5 HD creatures, 1 was 9 HD, and the rest were 6-8
20:12:08 <|amethyst> (away from water)
20:12:15 <advil> huh
20:12:30 <advil> it was a regular shapeshifter, btw, I was able to confirm that
20:12:42 <advil> !lg rrauwl teae -log
20:12:44 <Sequell> 15. Rrauwl, XL17 TeAE, T:42545: https://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/Rrauwl/morgue-Rrauwl-20170330-133133.txt
20:14:38 <|amethyst> !lm rrawuwl teae br.enter=lair -tv
20:14:57 <|amethyst> !lm rrauwl teae br.enter=lair -tv
20:15:58 <Sequell> No milestones for rrawuwl (teae br.enter=lair).
20:16:01 <Sequell> 1. Rrauwl, XL12 TeAE, T:18459 (milestone) requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org.
20:17:09 <|amethyst> oh, it was just before second entrance to lair, not first
20:17:13 <|amethyst> !lm rrauwl teae br.enter=lair -tv:cancel
20:17:16 <Sequell> 1. Rrauwl, XL12 TeAE, T:18459 (milestone) cancel requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org.
20:17:31 <|amethyst> !lm rrauwl teae uniq=kirke -tv:cancel
20:17:52 <|amethyst> err
20:17:54 <|amethyst> !lm rrauwl teae uniq=kirke -tv
20:18:12 <Sequell> 1. Rrauwl, XL13 TeAE, T:20281 (milestone) cancel requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org.
20:18:13 <Sequell> 1. Rrauwl, XL13 TeAE, T:20281 (milestone) requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org.
20:18:22 <advil> heh
20:18:24 <|amethyst> doh
20:18:26 <|amethyst> !lm rrauwl teae uniq=kirke -tv
20:18:28 <Sequell> 1. Rrauwl, XL13 TeAE, T:20281 (milestone) requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org.
20:18:33 <amalloy> |amethyst: actor_at(oppressor.pos())->hurt(...) should just be oppressor.hurt(...), right?
20:19:15 <advil> oh kirke
20:19:42 <|amethyst> amalloy:  I imagine that "// hack" is relevant
20:20:32 <|amethyst> amalloy:  probably ask PF about that
20:21:24 <|amethyst> amalloy:  ohh... because 'oppressor' is a const reference
20:21:40 <|amethyst> amalloy:  not sure why he did that instead of just making it non-const...
20:21:57 <amalloy> indeed, const seems wrong since we do plan to hurt it
20:22:09 <|amethyst> it might have to do with where it's called frrom
20:22:13 <amalloy> yes
20:22:21 <amalloy> but i'd rather const-cast it there than do this nonsense
20:22:25 <advil> I wouldn't have thought actor_at would be able to do that
20:22:26 <amalloy> or fix its constness
20:22:34 <advil> maybe s/would/should
20:22:40 <amalloy> advil: do what? it looks up an actor at a position, and gives it to you
20:22:52 <amalloy> it can't know that the way you knew about a thing's position was through a const reference
20:22:53 <advil> oh
20:23:37 <|amethyst> amalloy:  I think this is probably the only case in monster::react_to_damage that needs a non-const?
20:23:41 <advil> I wish I'd been paying closer attention to turns when that tv ended
20:23:48 <|amethyst> amalloy:  so yeah, a cast there seems reasonable
20:23:51 <amalloy> i'm looking through the cases
20:24:46 <|amethyst> wait, bushes burn?
20:24:56 <|amethyst> (I mean regular bushes, not burning bushes)
20:25:03 <|amethyst> I never knew that
20:28:32 <advil> !lm rrauwl teae uniq=kirke -tv:>>
20:28:34 <Sequell> 1. Rrauwl, XL13 TeAE, T:20281 (milestone) requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org.
20:36:44 <Cheibriados> 03amalloy02 07* 0.20-a0-941-gba1b1f9: Be more explicit about a const_cast 10(34 seconds ago, 3 files, 11+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ba1b1f945e66
20:38:32 <minmay> how do people feel about reducing Tr's hp modifier but increasing their melee aptitudes a bit? to make them more distinct from Og
20:39:57 <advil> !lm rrauwl teae uniq=kirke -tv:>>:cancel
20:39:59 <Sequell> 1. Rrauwl, XL13 TeAE, T:20281 (milestone) cancel requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org.
20:40:08 <advil> I guess it was most likely just awake for a long time because of noise
20:40:12 <minmay> weapon and unarmed apts that is, not increasing their armour/doging/shields/etc. apts
20:40:15 <minmay> or fighting apt
20:55:55 <Brannock> !apt HP
20:55:55 <Sequell> Brannock: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
20:55:55 <Sequell> HP: Og: 3!, Tr: 3!, Na: 2, DD: 2, Mi: 1, Dg: 1, Dr: 1, Gh: 1, Ce: 1, HO: 1, Hu: 0, Ds: 0, Vp: 0, Ba: 0, Mf: 0, HE: N/A, Mu: 0, Fo: 0, Ha: -1, Op: -1, Gr: -2, Te: -2, Ko: -2, DE: -2, VS: -3, Sp: -3, Fe: -4*
20:56:24 <Brannock> !apt Tr
20:56:25 <Sequell> Tr: Fighting: -2*, Short: -2, Long: -2, Axes: -2, Maces: -1, Polearms: -2, Staves: -2, Slings: -4*, Bows: -4*, Xbows: -4*, Throw: -1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -2, Stealth: -5*, Shields: -2, UC: 0, Splcast: -5*, Conj: -3*, Hexes: -4*, Charms: -4*, Summ: -3*, Nec: -2, Tloc: -3*, Tmut: -3, Fire: -3*, Ice: -3*, Air: -4*, Earth: -1, Poison: -3*, Inv: -1*, Evo: -3*, Exp: -1, HP: 3!, MP: -1*
20:56:34 <Brannock> !apt Og
20:56:35 <Sequell> Og: Fighting: 3!, Short: -3*, Long: -3*, Axes: -3*, Maces: -1, Polearms: 0, Staves: 0, Slings: -3, Bows: -3, Xbows: -3, Throw: 0, Armour: -2, Dodge: -1, Stealth: -2, Shields: -1, UC: -1, Splcast: 1, Conj: -1, Hexes: -1, Charms: -1, Summ: -1, Nec: -1, Tloc: -1, Tmut: -1, Fire: -1, Ice: -1, Air: -1, Earth: -1, Poison: -1, Inv: 1, Evo: -2, Exp: 0, HP: 3!, MP: 0
20:56:55 <Brannock> seems bumping up Tr weapon apts would bring them closer to Og in some cases, further away in others
20:57:45 <minmay> the idea is to make Tr better offensively and Og better defensively
20:57:52 <Brannock> a la Ko/Ha?
20:58:14 <minmay> ...okay, that's a pretty good argument against it, I admit
20:58:17 <Brannock> lol
20:58:27 <Brannock> well I think Ko/Ha are in a good spot nowadays
20:59:50 <minmay> tr has always had somewhat better melee than og (but this isn't clear to many players) and og has slightly better hp than tr
21:00:19 <minmay> i think they would be more distinct if the hp difference were bigger
21:00:25 <Brannock> how much bigger?
21:01:28 <minmay> well, you know me, I want species to be balanced, so I would give tr a 0 or -10% hp modifier, but I suspect that's not a suggestion that will get traction
21:01:50 <Brannock> Lowest I'd be willing to approve is +1
21:01:51 <minmay> maybe -20%
21:02:02 <Brannock> at -20% they're reaching into Vine Stalker territory
21:02:07 <Brannock> and probabyl worse than Vine Stalker in most ways
21:02:09 <minmay> I was going to suggest +10% since it makes the gap pretty clear, although it leaves Tr better than Og at literally everything
21:02:13 <minmay> yes, the overlap with vine stalker is a problem
21:02:43 <minmay> s/thing/background
21:02:53 <Brannock> I think big races should be 'big', regarding HP, for the most part
21:03:02 <Brannock> not that crawl does a great job of having size matter
21:05:23 <minmay> sure, and there are good reasons for that...but right now Tr and Og lack actual disadvantages
21:06:16 <minmay> it's a similar problem to Mi: some "bad" apts aren't meaningful if something else about the race makes you save a bunch of xp elsewhere
21:07:08 <minmay> er...I mean it is for Og
21:07:58 <minmay> because they get an amazing weapon that saves them a ton of xp (giant club) which pretty much makes the slightly inferior dodging etc. apts moot
21:08:39 <minmay> so the main tradeoff is that you get a lot of extra hp in exchange for having somewhat less ac and ev...which is replacing one defense with a better defense
21:09:10 <minmay> that's why I originally suggested to nerf Og's offense by a lot
21:09:37 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-941-gba1b1f9 (34)
21:10:44 <minmay> Tr just has massive advantages (huge hp bonus, free early game) in exchange for tiny disadvantages (a bit less EV and you have a little less AC than other races in lair-ish but not elsewhere), doesn't really have the same problem as Mi
21:11:03 <minmay> huge hp bonus, free early game, and huge damage bonus*
21:12:10 <minmay> and also you're somewhat worse at spells but Tr spellcasting ability in the actually relevant schools (like necro and earth) is not even that bad
21:13:01 <minmay> so you could definitely balance Tr with +10% HP by going after those other things; I only like negative hp modifier for Tr because it takes them further away from the other large race
21:13:01 <minmay> that was too many lines I'll shut up now
22:03:28 <rumflump> fwiw, I have Og at 4hp and Tr at 2hp apt
22:07:15 <rumflump> large folk having reasonably good ac once they find good scales was one of the things that went counter to my expectations when I was new, perhaps they could have deformed body?
22:16:03 <minmay> oh, I like that idea
22:22:38 <gammafunk> for which
22:28:59 <minmay> both, I think it'd make their armour choice a little more interesting
22:37:11 <rumflump> I thought deformed body made heavy armours even more important than they already are, not more interesting
22:42:45 <johnstein> ^status
22:42:45 <Rotatell> 47 Crawlers. CBRO disk usage=78% (135GB) | RAM usage=32% (4GB)| uptime/CPU= 22:42:44 up 28 days,  3:21,  4 users,  load average: 0.72, 0.80, 0.90 (4 Cores) http://status.berotato.org
22:44:23 <minmay> rumflump: deformed body is a bigger penalty the higher the base AC of your armour
22:49:57 <elliptic> fwiw I am periodically surprised that Og and Tr don't have deformed body
22:51:46 <elliptic> it just feels a little weird to me that Na/Ce have deformed body but can wear any body armour fine, while Og/Tr don't have deformed body but can't wear most armour
22:51:55 <rumflump> well shoot, that's a dev, a wannabe, and an oddball, all clamoring for deformed bodies
22:52:06 <rumflump> it's practically canon
22:56:53 <rumflump> but yeah, you start out in a robe, unable to wear anything you see for the most part, and to me as a newb that defined how tr/og was going to go
22:58:19 <rumflump> then came ___ dragon scales and oh actually, it's an armored race, not a dododgy race. big huge flip
22:59:39 <gammafunk> well don't forget tla
22:59:54 <gammafunk> that's a pretty comman early armour that gives you appreciably more AC but still not a lot
23:00:23 <gammafunk> if you decide that having AC is better than your robe, you very often don't have to wait all the way until dragon scales
23:00:53 <rumflump> yeah, I think I found tla after finding a dragon of some kind in lair, but the average char probably finds tla first
23:22:35 <ProzacElf> deformed body only makes heavy armor more important because you can enchant it higher
23:22:50 <ProzacElf> .....he said 20 mins after the conversation ended