00:00:04 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:27 my impression is that wu is pretty strong, but i don't see it as supporting stabbing very well 00:00:28 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.20-a0-833-gc632bec (34) 00:01:47 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:10 http://imgur.com/Y0BkfY2 00:04:16 dith isnt all about stabbing, its stealth + multiple attacks right? 00:05:28 mostly stabbing, imo 00:06:09 dith doesn't really synergize much with stabbing 00:06:18 even conjurers can use dith 00:06:34 or rather, stabbers don't really need better stabbing 00:06:52 they need something to kill unstabbable monsters 00:07:12 sure 00:07:22 the set of monsters you can stab is pretty much the same with or without dith, so a god that gives you allies or w/e is much better for a "stabber character" 00:07:22 +20 slaying is something 00:07:50 heaven on earth felt less powerful than i expected from what i'd heard 00:08:06 heaven on earth is turbo darkness 00:08:06 felt or heard? 00:08:24 you get 2los for an extended period of time and all you have to do to keep it is whirlwind and wall jump occasionally 00:08:55 sounds like offensive shadow form 00:08:59 i got halfway through killdudesing zot5 and decided to just use HoE and ninja the orb instead 00:09:13 i get so much out of the other abilities that i just havent needed it 00:09:29 yeah the other abilities are kind of bonkers 00:10:23 HoE let me clear the entirety of v:5 and tomb:3 without using stairs or teleport 00:10:43 i tried to do that but i kind of got beat up too much and had to tele midway through 00:10:50 but i also did the stupid play of starting it on the stairs 00:11:09 maybe it should have a duration eh 00:12:03 it does, it's just linked to slaying bonus 00:12:11 -!- mibe has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:12:20 the duration is also really weird and reminds me of the divine shield thing that just got removed 00:12:46 !tell marvinpa please save us from the heaven on earth duration code (in wu_jian_heaven_tick()) 00:12:47 Pleasingfungus: OK, I'll let marvinpa know. 00:12:49 !source wu_jian_heaven_tick 00:12:50 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/god-passive.cc#L1528 00:13:42 a finite one 00:14:18 reminds me of PbD duration! 00:14:19 -!- destroythecore has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:23 that sure is one trick 00:14:55 attentions guys: one trick to make it last longer 00:16:31 oh wow, you can lunge AND whirlwind in the same turn? 00:17:05 and dig 00:17:18 all against sleeping enemies too 00:17:49 but can you rub your tummy and pat your head at the same time 00:17:59 no, thats impossible 00:18:05 there is no feat for that! 00:18:31 -!- adelrune has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:06 alexjurkiewicz: you shall be punished for revealing too much of the gay agenda to shard1697 00:20:25 which agenda is that 00:20:34 the hill orc monk thread 00:21:41 the joke is too subtle 00:22:07 http://imgur.com/e2XbLtT 00:22:22 i could post a photo of me in the mardi gras last weekend in the thread, if it would help 00:22:55 hm 00:23:01 twelwe: not sure if that's correct behavior 00:23:08 it feels right to me 00:23:19 you didn't even see them before! 00:23:23 i can whirlwind at the same time too 00:23:34 i have 20/20 windsight 00:23:48 !tell steelneuron http://imgur.com/e2XbLtT in your opinion, should lunge be allowed to trigger on monsters that you didn't see before taking the move? (e.g. because there was a wall in the way that you just tunneled through) 00:23:49 Pleasingfungus: OK, I'll let steelneuron know. 00:24:16 i could see him before, i detected him first, the entered los and backed out 00:24:18 that's a formicid 00:24:26 it knows when there's a monster on the other side of the wall lol 00:24:32 antenna 00:24:33 -!- Menche has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:24:48 you don`t see the antenna here because i saw them 00:25:02 backed away, found a better angle to dig lunge 00:25:08 i can't see the antenna because everything out of LOS is too dark blue for me 00:25:20 lol 00:25:29 i see it now 00:25:36 idk. it's weird but i'll think about it 00:26:00 think about making more pure ownage shit like dig lunging possible 00:27:39 -!- Pleasingfungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 51.0.1/20170125094131]] 00:28:04 twelwe: http://i.imgur.com/bmcPBvR.png 00:29:11 gammafunk if that fungal fruit takes away my dig lunging i`ll have no choice but witchdoctor services 00:29:35 what is that a pictere of? 00:29:59 "pure ownage"... sorta 00:30:21 probably coulda just swung with weapon tbh 00:30:45 hopefully he removes the god before my current game finishes 00:30:56 I'll get credit for an athiest win 00:31:04 i only support removal because the god uses the w name 00:31:05 and I won't keep randomly wall-jumping when I don't want 00:31:12 !lm . 00:31:16 you lack key discipline 00:31:19 22292. [2017-03-03 06:03:10] gammafunk the Spear-Bearer (L12 FoSk of Wu Jian) entered a Labyrinth on turn 16779. (Lair:1) 00:31:36 do you stream your misjumps into lava? 00:31:53 shift move should help, especially for laby 00:32:02 lol 00:32:05 shift move 00:32:18 I stream my oneandwons twelwe 00:32:41 intentionally wall jump into lava so you can fly without wasting a potion of flight 00:33:10 super secret tech Doesnty 00:33:14 i wall jumped into oklob los a few times 00:33:22 where was the last argument where someone insisted that movement holding down a modifier key was great 00:33:33 oh right Maurog 00:33:45 and his mode locking for diagonal movement 00:34:16 the spurious wall jumping is just the worst 00:34:18 thats slightly sexy stuff 00:34:33 03Doesnt02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/485 * 0.20-a0-820-gc78a286: un-remove accidentally removed newline 10(4 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c78a2862c044 00:34:33 03Doesnt02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/485 * 0.20-a0-821-g1038df5: Don't prevent Xom from gifting useless spellbooks 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 12+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1038df59663d 00:34:35 was he playing with a controller or something 00:34:54 it was an epic rant at how bad vikeys is 00:35:04 yall have poor control if you wall jump accidentally (sp saved me there) 00:35:21 i have poor control 00:35:22 the 'solution' was to hold down a modifier when using normal arrow keys 00:35:33 lol 00:35:46 so tht would make up left-up? 00:36:13 up for up and shift-up for left-up? 00:36:25 something like that 00:36:32 the general mental tax the god wants you to have to do very simple things is just bad 00:36:49 whirlwind is probably the single worst thing about the god for me 00:36:57 is it really a mental tax? 00:37:01 sure 00:37:07 i could lose whirlwind and be happy 00:37:17 but i`m digging killholes everywhere 00:37:23 it doesn't really add tactical depths 00:37:26 what if whirlwind just activated when you smacked someone manually 00:37:27 duvessa made a good post about it 00:37:39 maybe, Doesnty 00:37:39 so there was no advantage to running around instead of tabbing 00:37:48 other than possibly getting to a better position 00:39:06 oh man, Steely would be crushed if wjc worked while not moving around at all 00:39:19 could be the right fix tho hehe 00:41:11 twelwe: so what other dwant wu-tang tech have you uncovered? 00:41:13 dig lunges 00:41:29 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 00:41:35 worms was talking about setting up haste-like things with zig-zagging dig paths 00:41:55 i`ll find it 00:41:58 yeah i have a gif of that in the closed thread 00:42:11 -!- nikheizen has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:42:34 http://i.imgur.com/FBSdpqm.gif 00:43:19 -!- Lasty has quit [Client Quit] 00:43:25 also, if you do that while tearing out the middle tiles so you always have north/south los, that setup makes jian hugely op for ranged builds 00:44:24 there are lots of cool jump patterns to dig out 00:55:17 i gotta take a hike this place is going out of business or closing for the night or somerthing 00:55:21 -!- twelwe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:56:42 !learn add ru_reasons You redirect the basilisk's attack! _The basilisk is moving more slowly. The basilisk stops moving altogether! 00:56:43 ru reasons[13/13]: You redirect the basilisk's attack! _The basilisk is moving more slowly. The basilisk stops moving altogether! 00:56:47 wow 13 00:57:18 i wonder if curse toes are in there anywhere 01:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:29 hmmmm 01:03:43 does ring of loudness not actually register as noise level? 01:03:59 or does it just shout periodically like a *noise weapon? 01:04:06 it makes no noise 01:04:09 it just lowers your stealth 01:04:27 right 01:04:27 http://i.imgur.com/CCnV6Ld.png anyway there's no fancy message for this unfortunately 01:04:30 of cuourse 01:05:34 -!- orbisvicis has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:07:01 @??elephant 01:07:01 elephant (03Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 54-80 | AC/EV: 8/2 | Dam: 2007(trample), 5 | Res: 06magic(60), 12drown | XP: 480 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 01:07:05 @??yak 01:07:05 yak (07Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 30-45 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Dam: 18 | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 204 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 01:07:11 i feel elephant damage is pretty low 01:07:14 @??dire elephant 01:07:14 dire elephant (02Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 90-129 | AC/EV: 13/2 | Dam: 4007(trample), 15 | Res: 06magic(100), 12drown | XP: 1242 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 01:07:21 they're just big yaks 01:13:30 the main thing they do is introduce trample 01:13:34 @??yak 01:13:34 yak (07Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 30-45 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Dam: 18 | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 204 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 01:13:47 they've also got significantly more HP 01:14:04 in addition to some more damage 01:14:23 the issue is probably more that there are plain yaks in lair 01:14:37 they feel a lot weaker than you'd expect elephants to be 01:14:59 oh, the feel they have seems about right to me 01:15:05 but that's possibly a good thing 01:15:14 it feels really satisfying to take them down with your bare hands 01:15:16 I mean I have little expectation for crawl monsters and damage, I guess 01:16:05 I wouldn't expect a little toad with some spines to be one of the most dangerous things in the branch, but so it goes 01:16:07 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:16:27 @??spiny frog 01:16:28 spiny frog (08F) | Spd: 12 (swim: 60%) | HD: 7 | HP: 30-45 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Dam: 2608(poison:14-28) | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(20), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 408 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 01:16:31 @??human 01:16:31 human (15p) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 27-38 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 196 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 01:16:39 this frog is the size of a man 01:16:58 -!- chris___1 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:17:08 oh, os now we expect crawl sizes to be realistic?! 01:17:13 ikr 01:18:03 -!- twelwe has joined ##crawl-dev 01:18:14 heh 01:18:17 god damn its like 1960 and no one has wifi anywhere 01:19:51 !lg * current lair:6 s=cikiller% 01:19:53 3596 games for * (current lair:6): 466x a hydra (12.96%), 295x a death yak (8.20%), 200x a dire elephant (5.56%), 189x a spiny frog (5.26%), 185x a komodo dragon (5.14%), 148x a catoblepas (4.12%), 126x a black mamba (3.50%), 100x a fire dragon (2.78%), 82x (2.28%), 81x an acid blob (2.25%), 76x a tyrant leech (2.11%), 76x an entropy weaver (2.11%), 74x a merfolk avatar (2.06%), 70x a player ghost... 01:20:12 good old acid blob 01:20:17 !lairendkills lairtemple2 01:20:18 Lair End kills (lairtemple2): 78x cheibrodos_lair_end_hotspot (14.86%), 72x minmay_lair_end_frog_pond (13.71%), 53x gammafunk_lair_ancient_temple (10.10%), 46x wormcave (8.76%), 45x hangedman_lair_tendril_chambers (8.57%), 44x evilmike_catoblepas_cave (8.38%), 37x hangedman_lair_in_review (7.05%), 37x minmay_lair_end_enchanted_forest (7.05%), 36x evil_forest (6.86%), 34x grunt_lair_end_beastmaster... 01:20:21 that's a lot of dire elephant kills 01:20:36 a number of vaults place those 01:20:43 most would be from jungle book 01:20:47 since that one has so many 01:20:52 oh, i thought it was just the elephant temple 01:21:03 mine can place one 01:21:06 I think lair in review might 01:21:13 maybe some others 01:21:48 !lg * kmap~~ancient_temple lairtemple2 s=cikiller% 01:21:49 53 games for * (kmap~~ancient_temple lairtemple2): 9x a komodo dragon (16.98%), 6x a polar bear (11.32%), 5x a manticore (9.43%), 5x a dire elephant (9.43%), 4x a rime drake (7.55%), 4x a wyvern (7.55%), 4x an elephant (7.55%), 3x a hornet (5.66%), 3x a hydra (5.66%), 2x a sea snake (3.77%), 2x a harpy (3.77%), 2x a wind drake (3.77%), 2x a spiny frog (3.77%), the player character (1.89%), a croco... 01:22:05 yeah I bet that's like 90% jungle book 01:22:44 !lg * kmap~~ancient_temple lairtemple2 / status~~mesmer 01:22:49 6/53 games for * (kmap~~ancient_temple lairtemple2): N=6/53 (11.32%) 01:22:50 !lg * kmap~~chequers 01:22:51 No games for * (kmap~~chequers). 01:22:59 jungle book? what spells? 01:23:01 !lg * map~~chequers 01:23:03 711. gowby the Slasher (L5 HOWr), slain by a killer bee on D:2 (chequers_ecumenical_altar_island) on 2017-03-07 02:56:35, with 181 points after 3690 turns and 0:09:22. 01:24:20 oh, jungle book is what the elephant temple is called 01:24:38 i thought there was some other dire elephant vault 01:25:08 the anaconda is Kaa! 01:25:17 which I didn't realize until reading the des 01:25:37 only the 1% reads the desc 01:25:49 I'm the 27% 01:25:54 i know 01:26:03 just because you mimic 1% behavior doesnt make you one of them 01:26:16 *one of us 01:26:50 -!- Denapoli has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:29:47 !lg * map~~chequers map!~ecumenical 01:29:48 444. McFly3 the Conjurer (L1 HuCj), slain by a hobgoblin on D:1 (chequers_big_river) on 2017-03-05 15:20:09, with 2 points after 102 turns and 0:01:28. 01:29:57 !lg * map~~chequers s=map month 01:29:59 143 games for * (map~~chequers month): 35x chequers_ecumenical_altar_island, 23x chequers_big_river, 18x chequers_temple_overflow_minitemple, 17x chequers_ecumenical_altar_simple_redux, 11x chequers_ecumenical_altar_simple, 9x chequers_ecumenical_altar_twisty, 9x chequers_ecumenical_altar_grove, 7x chequers_guarded_unrand_ignorance, 5x chequers_ossuary_entry_cave, 4x chequers_ecumenical_altar_lobe... 01:30:15 oh yeah. statues don't work with imap 01:30:19 *kmap 01:39:20 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:46 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 01:55:53 -!- Perryman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57:24 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:59:49 -!- MarvinPA__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:59 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:06:51 -!- Enthusiasm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:50 -!- Insomniak has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:28 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:45 -!- tksquared_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:39:32 -!- Insomniak has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:53:58 -!- eb_ has quit [] 02:54:41 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: I'M OUT SON. PEACE, LOVE, EXPLOSIONS.] 02:55:10 -!- Adeon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:56:15 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:56:41 -!- Adeon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:59:08 -!- wasd64 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:08:23 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 03:10:05 -!- Lasty has quit [Client Quit] 03:10:24 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 03:11:22 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:12:16 -!- Zeor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:12:49 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.20-a0-833-gc632bec (34) 03:15:04 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 03:16:34 -!- adibis has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:20:21 -!- SteelNeuron has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:06 -!- waat has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:29:36 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:33:02 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:33:46 -!- Danei[notDanei] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:34:28 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:34:53 -!- laj1 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:38:54 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 03:39:23 -!- glaas has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:40:26 -!- Adeon_ is now known as Adeon 03:46:42 -!- GauHelldragon has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:49 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 04:14:31 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:19:57 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:25:11 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:25:36 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 04:26:11 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:34:38 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:46:56 -!- Chronozari has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:53:34 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00:33 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 05:13:20 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:25:20 -!- gkgzkzgkgkg has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:30:56 -!- Textmode has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:48:29 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:50:40 -!- laj1 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:55:53 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:57:20 -!- zxc has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:58:24 -!- SteelNeuron has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:11:20 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:16:03 -!- Fixer has joined ##crawl-dev 06:17:26 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 06:21:22 -!- vible has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:21:48 -!- vible has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:52 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:24:30 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 06:28:02 -!- Lasty1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:28:19 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:28:43 -!- Lasty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:33:24 -!- chris___1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:34:48 -!- rumflump has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:39:57 -!- Lasty1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:58:28 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:59:28 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:55 -!- genericpseudonym has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:48 -!- xnavy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:20:27 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 07:32:42 -!- Tiltorax has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:34:04 -!- chris___1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:38:18 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:40:03 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 07:42:36 -!- flow has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:45:12 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:57 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:55:36 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:57:18 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:53 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:02:31 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:07:40 -!- ajhager has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:11:24 -!- waat has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:21:36 -!- glaas has quit [Client Quit] 08:22:09 -!- epsilonhalbe has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:23:24 !lg jjjjhere cbro gh 08:23:25 5. jjjjhere the Brawler (L16 GhMo of Wu Jian), slain by norplu's ghost on Spider:2 on 2017-03-06 02:12:16, with 93017 points after 22984 turns and 1:10:26. 08:23:31 !lg jjjjhere cbro gh x=gid 08:23:31 5. [game_key=jjjjhere:cbro:20170206005541S] jjjjhere the Brawler (L16 GhMo of Wu Jian), slain by norplu's ghost on Spider:2 on 2017-03-06 02:12:16, with 93017 points after 22984 turns and 1:10:26. 08:23:52 !lg jjjjhere gid=jjjjhere:cbro:20170206005541S 08:23:53 1. jjjjhere the Brawler (L16 GhMo of Wu Jian), slain by norplu's ghost on Spider:2 on 2017-03-06 02:12:16, with 93017 points after 22984 turns and 1:10:26. 08:33:56 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:45:35 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:50:15 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:17 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:00:47 -!- laj1 has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:01:44 -!- bannakaffalatta has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 09:02:44 -!- waat has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:09:32 lol maybe x2 is a multiplier for ring of loudness is too steep 09:09:40 I'd have to add another step to the noise bar 09:09:58 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:10:47 although for normal situations (not qazlal with shield of gong casting shatter) it might be ok 09:10:47 GONNNNG! 09:17:39 -!- mroovka has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 51.0.1/20170125094131]] 09:24:05 03advil02 07* 0.20-a0-834-gc59a6f1: Add loudness to the ring of loudness 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 7+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c59a6f18e369 09:24:37 I don't really have strong feelings about that so if people would rather it become the ring of visibility instead, that's completely fine with me 09:25:51 uh that commit did something stupid 09:32:05 -!- Pleasingfungus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:32:24 <|amethyst> advil: ? 09:32:31 !tell twelwe you were right, i was wrong 09:32:31 Pleasingfungus: OK, I'll let twelwe know. 09:32:32 I didn't restrict it to the player 09:32:42 !tell steelneuron disregard last !tell, it's cool 09:32:42 Pleasingfungus: OK, I'll let steelneuron know. 09:32:48 <|amethyst> Just change the description 09:32:51 heh 09:33:00 <|amethyst> "A ring that amplifies nearby noises, and..." 09:33:04 ah good 09:33:11 well, it wouldn't be restricted to nearby 09:33:19 <|amethyst> only on the same dungeon level 09:33:23 <|amethyst> that's "nearby" :P 09:33:37 ok, do you think that's an ok effect? 09:33:42 it may get a little crazy :-) 09:34:06 <|amethyst> it might be a little much, but eh 09:34:34 -!- chris___1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:35:18 <|amethyst> might need to do something with artefact rings based on loudness 09:35:33 <|amethyst> I think right now they would just get "Stlth-" in the inscription 09:36:04 <|amethyst> jewellery_effect_name in item-name.cc 09:36:11 ah good point 09:40:20 so the goal of this change is to make people more cautious about wear-iding rings early on, and to make randart loudness rings worse? 09:43:33 I don't know that I'd have put it so clearly, but yes...as well as to resolve the fact that the description doesn't match the effects 09:43:44 (which could also be fixed by just changing the name/description) 09:43:46 the last one can be fixed a lot more simply, yes 09:44:21 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 09:44:37 I'm fine with the latter, this just seemed a bit more interesting to me? 09:45:04 i'd kind of rather save the effect for something players actually use 09:45:15 but i don't have anything specific in mind 09:45:20 ah I see 09:45:28 so at least until then, w/e 09:45:41 I was thinking it might lead to more interesting choices on randarts 09:45:50 since I don't think stealth- is a big deal for a lot of chars 09:46:58 i don't *think* the item type factors into how the randart generator works 09:47:06 it tries to generate an interesting mix of properties without considering base type 09:47:15 so there should, ideally, already be some interesting negative properties 09:49:14 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus: it does try to avoid things that conflict with the base type I think 09:49:28 <|amethyst> or maybe I'm thinking of armour egos 09:49:39 no, i think that's right, but like 09:49:49 that doesn't factor into the "good vs bad property balance" that it tries to create 09:49:50 afaik 09:50:06 is &+ representative of the generation process at all? 09:51:03 i think just changing the ring's name would be better here 09:51:24 &+ uses the normal process, i think 09:51:25 or making it only do the loudness thing and not -stealth i guess 09:51:40 weird that it's assymetric with its opposite ring 09:52:20 well, they don't have any particular need to be opposites 09:52:22 making it only do the loudness thing would mean they're no longer a pair, which would be fine too 09:52:24 yeah 09:52:25 <|amethyst> have it give +stealth and multiply noie 09:52:28 <|amethyst> noise 09:52:29 lol 09:52:32 heh 09:53:08 there's also the occasional *Noise property (only on fixedarts?) that this is muddled with 09:53:28 what I had in mind though is stuff like "the ring "Toiwau" (left hand) {+Fly rPois rN+++ Int-4 Stlth-}" (which I got from &+) 09:53:51 maybe because its swappable this doesn't matter 09:53:56 randart weapons can get noise too 09:54:05 well, *noise is a totally unrelated property 09:54:10 right, that's what I mean 09:54:16 having noise and *noise 09:54:29 i wonder if it'd be better if *noise had this mechanic instead of its current one 09:55:10 -!- thurin_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:55:48 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 09:56:06 -!- thurin_ has quit [Client Quit] 09:57:10 -!- Lasty has quit [Client Quit] 09:58:48 03advil02 07* 0.20-a0-835-gd6476b5: Revert add loudness to loudness 10(46 seconds ago, 2 files, 2+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d6476b519547 09:59:22 I didn't do the rename yet because I wasn't quite sure what the best way to do that is, but this at least makes the item description consistent with its current effects 09:59:59 hm, do you know the git revert command? 10:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:15 I do, but I fixed the description in that commit 10:01:07 fair! 10:01:56 -!- bgiannan_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:08:19 -!- gowby has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:09:29 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-835-gd6476b5 (34) 10:11:27 <|amethyst> btw, if this is reintroduced in a different form (or the same)... 10:11:37 -!- jeefus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:11:41 <|amethyst> it should clearly also double Singing Sword sonic damage 10:11:45 wow, OP 10:11:50 very nethack 10:12:01 <|amethyst> no, no, it's not nethacky 10:12:02 haha 10:12:08 <|amethyst> you see, we'd make Sonic a new element 10:12:11 agh 10:12:18 <|amethyst> ZAngbandy 10:12:22 for balance, it should instead provide a logarithmic increase to sonic damage. 10:13:03 oh, |amethyst / MarvinPA_, did either of you see yesterday's chat about april fool's projects for this year? 10:13:18 sonic shrikes? 10:13:29 we have two viable jokes and should probably decide on at most one of those 10:13:31 <|amethyst> no, but I know alexjurkiewicz is working on something with achievements 10:14:23 yeah, that's one. the other one was the return of chaoscrawl; gamma had some thoughts on how to put chaoscrawl up without causing *too* much disruption 10:15:32 -!- jefus- has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:16:04 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 10:19:06 <|amethyst> hm 10:19:14 <|amethyst> achievements sounds somewhat more interesting to me 10:19:23 <|amethyst> because we could keep them around after April 1 10:19:34 <|amethyst> it's like a meta April Fools Joke 10:19:39 absolutely not 10:20:12 -!- PsyMar has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:20:41 <|amethyst> true, I guess we already did that joke with Webtiles 10:21:08 -!- bgiannan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:22:26 it would take actual work to come up with good, well-designed cheevos, as opposed to intentionally terrible joke cheevos 10:22:45 i don't know that anyone is interested in doing that work 10:22:45 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus: work that we already do every tournament :) 10:22:54 <|amethyst> just start with those 10:23:16 wow, way to dilute the specialness of t 10:23:18 <|amethyst> I guess that could get confusing when tournament does happen, because you might have the achievement from pre-T games 10:23:40 (also, more like 'work that we did like 4 years ago and have been slowly tweaking since') 10:23:45 <|amethyst> true 10:23:53 I think in the current implementation they were just per game (maybe not even saved yet?) 10:25:18 <|amethyst> what I was doing 5 years ago: 10:25:23 <|amethyst> %git 16c1eaefb 10:25:23 07|amethyst02 * 0.11-a0-370-g16c1eae: Allow players to be elemental-coloured (nfogravity). 10(5 years ago, 2 files, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/16c1eaefb04c 10:25:34 <|amethyst> kind of a boring commit 10:25:45 hell, i was still in grade school 5 years ago! 10:26:11 <|amethyst> ITYM "larva school" 10:26:16 hm, that joke would've been better if i said 'kindergarden' instead 10:26:50 <|amethyst> or perhaps "spore school" if you've decided you're a fungus now instead of a beetle 10:28:09 entropy wears away at us all 10:28:27 ^ in extremely r-i voice 10:28:40 <|amethyst> I read that as "entropy weavers away ..." 10:28:57 droppin em like bombs 10:31:49 -!- Ge0ff has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:31:52 -!- Ystah has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:44:43 -!- moritz_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:45:22 greetings 10:46:07 -!- moritz_ has quit [Client Quit] 10:48:38 interesting irc strategy 10:50:12 -!- Pleasingfungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 51.0.1/20170125094131]] 10:54:08 -!- rumflump has joined ##crawl-dev 10:59:52 -!- adelrune has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:01:25 -!- Cybersaint2k has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:02:51 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 11:16:35 -!- twelwe has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:35:03 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:24 -!- chris___1 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:37:13 -!- Lasty has quit [Client Quit] 11:45:00 hm, now I think a noise multiplication effect on anything at all swappable would be bad, as it makes it best to tediously swap away when exploring. 11:45:10 So it wouldn't work in place of *noise on weapons unless it's just about melee noise (which could be a thing). 11:45:31 -!- sooheon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:21 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 11:48:37 03Brannock02 07* 0.20-a0-836-ge7e240f: Minor cleaning of Wu Jian description (10964) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e7e240fbe1b7 11:49:42 *noise on weapons would be cool I think 11:49:49 steps on the toes of Singing Sword a little 12:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:43 -!- THERetroGamerNY has quit [Quit: Be Blessed!] 12:04:51 can crawl tiles be used to earn money? 12:05:02 cause this guy is sure doing exactly this http://www.kongregate.com/games/TopCog/idle-mage-attack 12:05:31 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.20-a0-836-ge7e240f (34) 12:08:21 literally. 12:08:24 http://prntscr.com/eh61e2 12:09:22 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-836-ge7e240f (34) 12:11:39 -!- bgiannan_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:53 Tux[Qyou]: not all tiles can be used, but those can 12:15:29 escu: what are you referring to as "those" 12:15:43 -!- Pleasingfungus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:15:46 advil: why would it be better to swap noise mult away while exploring? surely noise mult doesn't do anything while exploring? 12:15:49 the ones in your screenshot 12:16:36 Pleasingfungus: noise traps, door creaks, running into a howler monkey (if it's general noise amplification), etc 12:16:37 escu: then I'd check other ones cause sure as hell they ripped a lot of crawl graphics 12:17:38 the tiles have been released as a cc0 package specifically meant for people to use in their games, so i wouldn't call it "ripping" 12:18:27 i forgot door creaks existed 12:18:41 those would be the only ones to worry about if it was only personal noise mult, probably 12:18:50 yeah 12:18:55 escu: fair enough 12:20:48 it would be easy to make it just multiply melee damage noise (which will be noticeable for any decent weapon I think, they are often already yellow with good skill) 12:26:10 bwonggg 12:28:31 -!- nattefrost has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:36 ptoannng 12:33:50 -!- Hiffwe has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:35:12 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:36:07 @??crimson imp 12:36:07 crimson imp (055) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 10-16 | AC/EV: 3/14 | Dam: 4 | 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, fly, regen | Res: 06magic(40), 04fire+++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy | XP: 48 | Sp: blink [06!sil] | Sz: little | Int: human. 12:36:13 @??quokka 12:36:13 quokka (00r) | Spd: 12 | HD: 1 | HP: 4-7 | AC/EV: 2/13 | Dam: 5 | XP: 2 | Sz: little | Int: animal. 12:37:38 i think current *noise is probably better than multiplying melee damage noise really 12:40:32 also re april fools, achievements seem a bit better to me in that they're just cosmetic and can easily be ignored, and don't require as much setup 12:40:40 -!- freechips has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:41:05 also probably more believable as a thing, i don't know what the actual joke is with chaoscrawl 12:41:52 return of gloorx vloq the hobgoblin 12:42:50 sure, it's more like "here's a silly thing" than the usual spirit of april fool's stuff though (if that is even a well-defined thing at all nowadays :P) 12:45:16 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:02 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:10 -!- Amnesiac has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:50:48 my favorite april fool's was when a literal zombie plague broke out in WoW. though maybe that was halloween 12:51:15 -!- stennowork has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:51:35 my peeps were so mad because they couldn't quest and level normally. I was so happy because I didn't have to quest and level normally! 12:52:05 are you talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrupted_Blood_incident 12:52:09 just run around barfing on players who seem too busy to run away 12:52:34 no, there was a later thing that was probably inspired by that thing. and it was on purpose this time 12:53:10 ah, yeah, it's mentioned in the article 12:53:14 ah, wasn't april fools. felt like one though ;) http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Zombie_Infestation 12:53:42 The event—which Blizzard ended on 28 October—earned the company both praise and criticism from its fans.[13] 12:53:44 thanks wikipedia 12:58:57 -!- Zekka has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:34 uncontrolled_blink seems much better than intrinsic teleportitis because it doesn't interrupt exploration. any bad ramifications I should be aware of? http://dpaste.com/38MATT4 13:02:14 also it actually does what crimson imps do, so that's nice 13:04:26 go for it 13:04:30 -!- Cybersaint2k has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:04:51 april fool's joke: dramatically increase generation chances of "Plog", respond to questions with "just clustering illusion" 13:08:10 hm, it doesn't interrupt tabbing either, that might be a bad thing :D 13:09:05 more plog yes 13:09:49 -!- Taraiph has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:10:19 -!- Rust3dCor3 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:11:04 !lm . opsu br.end=vaults 13:11:19 -!- bgiannan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:11:19 1. [2016-08-22 01:59:52] gammafunk the Convoker (L19 OpSu of Sif Muna) reached level 5 of the Vaults on turn 75866. (Vaults:5) 13:12:22 I'm thinking about replacing imp speech with Cerekov lines for April 1 13:12:46 ? 13:14:50 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Quit: ByrdIRC] 13:15:43 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:54 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:16 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 13:17:34 -!- CanOfWorms has joined ##crawl-dev 13:18:10 Lasty_: Would it be an actual implementation of a markov chain, or just some pre-generated stuff? 13:19:14 gammafunk: because I am lazy and also don't want to distribute a huge database, the latter 13:20:28 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:21:03 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:28 -!- Pleasingfungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 51.0.1/20170125094131]] 13:28:00 -!- bgiannan_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:04 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:31:58 -!- Bodrick has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:43:01 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:22 -!- nikheizen has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:43 -!- Lasty has quit [Client Quit] 13:48:48 -!- rumflump has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:50:21 -!- rumflump has joined ##crawl-dev 13:52:15 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Quit: I like to rock] 13:57:01 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 14:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:28 -!- bgiannan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:13:36 if (player_in_a_dangerous_place()) doesn't seem to be the right way to pause and notify the player if they blinkitis'd while enemies are about. would it be better to use i_feel_safe? 14:18:39 -!- Dom__ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:19:07 -!- Tarara has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:19:20 -!- Taraiphest is now known as Taraiph 14:21:31 -!- Adeon has quit [Quit: bye] 14:21:38 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 14:22:55 -!- yesno has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:25:43 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:48 -!- yesno has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:33:11 -!- mobydollar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:36:05 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:24 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 14:37:58 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:38:20 -!- chris___1 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:39:55 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 15:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:27 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:11 -!- Lasty has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:36 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 15:14:46 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:25:40 -!- wasd64 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26:40 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:21 -!- bgiannan_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:30:45 -!- Rust3dCor3 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:33:23 -!- scummos__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:38 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 15:44:43 -!- acalycine has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:57 -!- Bcadren has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:06 https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/5y2sfq/targeting_a_spell_is_turning_my_webtiles_instance/ 15:47:53 -!- bgiannan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:50:54 -!- adibis has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.7] 15:51:04 !lm JimmahDean x=server 15:51:05 Unknown field: server 15:51:41 !lm JimmahDean x=src 15:51:42 3629. [2017-03-05 16:07:24] [src=cao] JimmahDean the Conjurer (L1 DrCj) began the quest for the Orb on turn 0. (D:1) 15:51:47 it's x=src (but the log there says cao) 15:51:53 ah so it does 15:52:02 -!- dtsund has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:55 I can't replicate that but I have no idea why upgrading a save would matter 16:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:21 -!- mroovka has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 51.0.1/20170125094131]] 16:02:48 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:03:26 it seems like it must have something to do with my changes to the targeter though 16:03:30 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:05:47 -!- twelwe has joined ##crawl-dev 16:10:34 man, making changes always leads to problems 16:14:56 welcome to crawlcode 16:15:27 it's like remodeling a house of cards 16:16:11 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 16:16:19 seriously 16:23:32 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:34 what is the intent of entry vaults that put a bunch of monsters behind glass? 16:24:44 not that I dislike them, I just don't get them 16:25:44 flavour 16:26:04 "hi newbie, this is what you can expect if you live that long" 16:26:24 -!- twelwe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:26:45 (and there's at least one which is an in-joke; on console the glyphs spell "crawl") 16:27:51 they're the watchmen 16:28:02 when they see you they radio down to the depths so that they know somebody's coming 16:29:23 fair enough. that in joke sounds cool :) 16:30:01 I remember once in the early days being worried the glass would come down automatically at some trigger, after that I learned to be unimpressed when a monster and I mutually can't interact 16:30:17 it's kinda lost much of its effect thouygh, between tiles andmosnters being able to swap places it's often scrambled by the time you notice 16:30:30 or just not readable since tiles don;t show monster console glyphs 16:33:49 that gives me an idea 16:34:15 to get better at reading console, is there a way to use console glyphs in the monster list, and tiles in the main map? or vice versa 16:36:20 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:40:10 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 16:52:08 I think most people just stare at it, frequently use ctrl-x 16:52:29 A lot of tiles players don't seem to be aware that ctrl-x exists 16:52:38 even in tiles it's a handy way to look at monsters 16:52:42 uh, stupid question, how do I download save backups? 16:53:00 use your login on the server 16:53:03 when prompted 16:53:16 you must have a dev account on said server, of cours 16:53:16 oh, just my regular username? 16:53:21 your account login for that particular server, yeah 16:53:27 I think I do on some servers 16:53:32 but again you have to be designated as a dev on the server 16:53:52 maybe I'm not on cao 16:54:00 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:54:28 yeah if it's refusing your credentials, that'd be the case 16:54:40 johnstein: do you have the ability to make advil's account on cao a dev account? 16:54:43 or |amethyst 16:55:25 hm maybe I should have a better password :D 16:55:41 nonsense, who could ever guess 12345? 16:56:04 -!- snux has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:00 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 16:58:26 WebTiles turns black when firing a missile 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10965 by JimmahDean 16:59:21 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 17:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:24 -!- simmarine_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:02:42 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:06:04 -!- hittemvvvhard has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:53 -!- simmarine__ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:08:34 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 17:08:48 -!- simmarine_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:09:30 -!- gowby has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12:22 -!- simmarine__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:12:32 -!- simmarine__ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:15:00 I do. but how do we know we can trust him?!? 17:16:10 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 17:17:39 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 17:19:29 huh, you're not on cao? i thought that was one of the first things |amethyst did when you joined the dev team 17:19:36 checking the logs i'm sure he gave you admin on cao in fact 17:19:51 hmm is there another way to tell besides trying to download a save backup? 17:20:00 -!- simmarine__ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:20:02 I don't think you are there 17:20:03 advil: you have wizmode 17:20:06 ie, & will work 17:20:14