00:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:26 I did try to exactly repeat those actions btw, by recovering them from the log 00:02:36 cosmic radiation, clearly 00:05:00 <|amethyst> advil: oh, it is trivial to reproduce drinking from the floor 00:05:32 seriously? 00:05:35 h 00:05:38 ahaha 00:05:38 <|amethyst> advil: it happens every time you drink the last !exp from the floor, because dec_mitm_item_quantity uses item.clear() 00:05:56 this explains the zigs thing btw 00:05:56 would drinking the last xp of a stack do it? you wouldn't think so 00:05:57 <|amethyst> rather than just setting the quantity/base type manually 00:05:58 so it does 00:06:00 that would be too simple 00:06:05 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus: not every time in inventory 00:06:06 Pleasingfungus: not by itself, for sure 00:06:10 I tested that many, many times 00:06:41 <|amethyst> I'm not sure what's happening that's junking the item slot in the inventory case 00:07:18 <|amethyst> since you're right that that codepath appears not to fully clear the item, just change quantity, base type, and props 00:07:40 <|amethyst> but still, it's bad form to rely on the item having any information left 00:07:45 an easy "fix" would be to set a bool based on item type early in that function 00:07:47 <|amethyst> the fix seems easy enough 00:07:48 <|amethyst> yeah 00:08:31 well, it would be a fix rather than a "fix" for the floor case 00:08:40 cannot believe I literally never tried the floor 00:09:10 I would bet if you looked at the logs of people who experienced this bug, it was them quaffing !exp with monsters on screen (so autopickup wasn't triggering) before exiting the zig 00:09:16 so it was drinking from floor 00:09:34 the ones I have were in inventory 00:09:38 lightly/ge0ff/me 00:09:58 there's a tv for ge0ff that I posted in the bug report 00:10:15 !lg Ge0ff gid=Ge0ff:cue:20170004195346S -tv:channel=debug:40000 00:10:16 1. Ge0ff, XL27 FeEn, T:113025 requested for debug: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org. 00:10:21 oh maybe lightli was floor 00:11:11 that tv looks wrong 00:11:21 it's the one you posted 00:11:24 -!- nicolae- has left ##crawl-dev 00:11:31 !lg -tv:cancel 00:11:32 518. advil, XL3 BaFi, T:1152 cancel requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org. 00:11:37 maybe turncount was different 00:11:44 but who was floor? 00:11:53 lol 00:12:05 !lg -tv:channel=debug:cancel 00:12:06 518. advil, XL3 BaFi, T:1152 cancel requested for debug: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org. 00:12:32 I think I might have not cancelled it and it's still playing from like an hour ago 00:12:40 !lg Ge0ff gid=Ge0ff:cue:20170004195346S -tv:channel=debug:40000:cancel 00:12:41 1. Ge0ff, XL27 FeEn, T:113025 cancel requested for debug: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org. 00:12:59 <|amethyst> it cancelled 00:13:03 oh whoops now I've canceled your request I think 00:13:15 !lg Ge0ff gid=Ge0ff:cue:20170004195346S -tv:channel=debug:40000 00:13:15 <|amethyst> is 39550 the time or the turn? 00:13:16 1. Ge0ff, XL27 FeEn, T:113025 requested for debug: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org. 00:13:22 turn, i think 00:13:27 ok the tv on now is the right one 00:13:29 querying time would be strange3 00:14:11 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus: but time is what we show in-game 00:14:12 heh 00:14:15 that was on the floor 00:14:20 ok maybe it was all on the floor 00:14:22 it happened too fast but that looked like it was from floor 00:14:22 but 00:14:25 yeah 00:14:34 and I just hit , by accident in my game 00:14:38 if you query a time that doesn't correlate to a player turn, what happens? 00:14:42 magic 00:14:49 !lg Ge0ff gid=Ge0ff:cue:20170004195346S -tv:channel=debug:40000:cancel 00:14:50 1. Ge0ff, XL27 FeEn, T:113025 cancel requested for debug: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org. 00:14:54 it would round 00:15:08 already it does this with turns 00:15:10 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus: same thing if you query a turn that doesn't correspond to a timestamp presumably 00:15:13 <|amethyst> what gf said 00:15:40 <|amethyst> I mean, it would be a bunch of things to change to make it use time 00:15:56 <|amethyst> and that would break all existing !tv queries 00:16:02 hey yo 00:16:17 but think of the upsides! 00:16:23 my DgWn bug was drinking from floor as well 00:16:29 I like tv 00:16:32 oh I'm missing a T in that query, that's why it didn't stop 00:16:58 oh, yeah 00:16:59 <|amethyst> so maybe the inventory case is just fragile and not actually broken yet 00:17:06 rough looking zig floor 00:17:07 <|amethyst> but it's still fragile 00:17:12 |amethyst: yeah I think that must be right 00:17:13 !tv brannock dgwn br=depths 00:17:14 1. brannock, XL25 DgWn, T:93659 requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org. 00:17:17 ^ this is also a very entertaining death 00:17:21 but you can see me drinking !exp from floor 00:18:09 <|amethyst> also, I like telling vim to search for "drink" 00:18:14 <|amethyst> It makes me feel like Father Jack 00:18:18 well, I've learned something about debugging today I think 00:18:21 sköl! 00:20:47 with wu jian, are martial attacks strictly superior to tab attacks? eg it seems that once you get *, it's always optimal to move rather than directly attack a monster, since you might also slow them 00:20:58 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 00:20:58 alexjurkiewicz, yes, that's been something I'm concerned about as well 00:21:09 waiting to see longer-term results on this, though 00:22:09 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 00:28:12 in particular it's whirlwind that seems problematic 00:28:21 wall jump and lunge require much more investment, movement-wise 00:29:32 yep 00:29:39 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev 00:29:40 The build passed. (master - 3277076 #7921 : Isaac Sloat): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/204060361 00:29:40 -!- travis-ci has left ##crawl-dev 00:30:33 what do you have to do for lunge? 00:30:45 have one tile between you and target and move towards target 00:30:57 currently cardinal and ordinal only I think 00:31:36 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.20-a0-731-gecde0bf (34) 00:31:48 ah 00:31:51 that explains why it never seemed to work for me =p 00:35:11 maybe less damage for whirlwind but higher chance of slow 00:35:14 for more ocmboness 00:41:53 actually in my save for the !xp thing I can verify that I was drinking it from my inventory 00:42:52 I think it's time to go to sleep :-) 00:46:31 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-732-g97c0b12: Fix levdes.vim syntax. 10(70 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/97c0b1233474 00:46:31 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-733-gf92fd71: Level up from the last !exp in a floor stack (advil, #10904) 10(15 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f92fd718fd6a 00:47:36 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 00:48:19 <|amethyst> hm, I guess 0.19 has floor drinking doesn't it? 00:49:22 03|amethyst02 07[stone_soup-0.19] * 0.19.4-10-g532645f: Level up from the last !exp in a floor stack (advil, #10904) 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/532645f5039c 00:51:17 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:51:28 <|amethyst> advil: many thanks for the debugging! 00:51:55 it was very good 00:52:20 |amethyst, thanks for that syntax fix. I got mixed up by having to rearrange lines and didn't correct for it 00:53:25 -!- laj1 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:56:11 -!- haru78 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:38 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:00:02 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus: I added another comment to the reddit save transfer crash: it looks like we already have a report for this---but more saves would still be helpful, so I asked OP to upload to that one (#10788) 01:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:12 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 01:00:14 ah, interesting 01:04:01 -!- Enthusiasm has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:25 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus: it's not all old saves, because I was just able to transfer an 0.13 save to trunk just fine 01:04:42 do you generate these on the spot or do you just happen to have 0.13 saves handy? 01:04:56 <|amethyst> $ ls saves/*.cs | wc -l 01:04:56 <|amethyst> 629 01:05:02 haha 01:05:12 the debug spam when loading the main menu drives me insane 01:05:15 if there are too many save0s 01:05:21 -!- hellmonk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:05:28 <|amethyst> I don't use debug builds very often 01:05:35 wall jumping should probably make some noise if it's kicking up dust 01:05:40 and is uhh 01:05:44 optimal to spam while travelling 01:06:39 the optimal play cost.... 01:07:15 <|amethyst> Doesnty: but I feel so cool when I'm wall-jumping down a three-wide corridor like Ninja Gaiden 01:07:39 hop hop HOP HOP 01:07:51 how frequent are three-wides anyway 01:07:58 seems pretty rare, going from fuzzy memory 01:07:59 sorry pf but this god makes way better hoppers 01:08:17 lol 01:08:56 I think V:$ has three-wides on the exterior corridors 01:08:59 but not the internal cross 01:09:04 these are four wide 01:09:13 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:09:15 no, the externals are two? 01:10:14 Stable (0.19) branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19.4-10-g532645f 01:10:16 -!- laj1 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:10:22 Stable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19.4-10-g532645f (34) 01:10:35 I wonder how much CPU power CJR spends on updating every fifteen minutes 01:11:06 -!- NotKintak has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:11:28 <|amethyst> Brannock: hm, I think most of the ones I was seeing were probably rooms rather than corridors 01:11:38 <|amethyst> Brannock: though in some layouts there's not much difference 01:12:14 Brannock: 30 minutes. cpo is 15 01:12:15 iirc 01:13:22 -!- Pleasingfungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 51.0.1/20170125094131]] 01:14:42 <|amethyst> I was generating D levels to see about how common three-wide spaces are (not very, but probably you'd see one or two in a game), and I got this 01:14:48 <|amethyst> ##.........# 01:14:48 <|amethyst> #...####.#.# 01:14:48 <|amethyst> #...#....#.# 01:14:48 <|amethyst> #...#....#.# 01:14:48 <|amethyst> #...####.#.# 01:14:50 <|amethyst> #...# #.#.# 01:14:53 <|amethyst> #...####.#.# 01:14:55 <|amethyst> #..........# 01:15:14 <|amethyst> I'm sure it's not, but still I really hope that's called minivault_61 01:15:57 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 01:16:14 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:16:42 |amethyst: no, it's minivault_19, it just got rotated 01:18:44 -!- yesno has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:19:52 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-733-gf92fd71 (34) 01:20:29 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-733-gf92fd71 (34) 01:22:10 -!- dwoobler has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:23:35 -!- LordSloth has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 01:24:33 it' 01:24:43 -!- zxc has joined ##crawl-dev 01:24:47 s only a matter of time until one of the level generators draws an expletive 01:32:58 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:35:21 -!- GauHelldragon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:37:04 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:42:19 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 01:43:27 -!- rumflump has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:47:28 <|amethyst> ?/swastika 01:47:28 Matching entries (2): goodmantis[7]: 0006122: Map in the form of a swastika | vault[3]: [Mu_] the most crucial part of making a large map is ensuring that no section of it either looks like a swastika or a smiley face 01:50:23 -!- Bammboo has quit [Quit: AdiIRC is updating to v2.7] 01:51:37 -!- simmarine_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:54:41 -!- orbisvicis has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:57:05 _The six-headed hydra roars! 01:57:05 _The six-headed hydra roars! 01:57:05 _The six-headed hydra roars! 01:57:06 _The six-headed hydra roars! 01:57:06 _The six-headed hydra roars! 01:57:06 _The six-headed hydra roars! 01:57:27 apparently if i go invisible and walk away from a hydra that's 1 square from the edge of los, it roars at me every turn 01:57:54 well yeah, each head is roaring independently, duh 01:59:43 is xom leda's supposed to be beneficial somehow 02:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:25 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-733-gf92fd71 02:08:07 -!- tantanoid has joined ##crawl-dev 02:13:08 i have never once found it to be so 02:13:18 but i think it is "supposed" to be beneficial 02:14:22 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 02:15:24 okay who added stone giants to volcanoes 02:15:45 i was unpleasantly surprised by that one a while back 02:15:53 i want to say it was r-i 02:15:57 -!- n_crm has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:15:57 but i'm not 100% on that 02:16:02 probably yeah 02:17:49 !tell regret-index stone giants don't work well in volcanoes, most chars will want to kite them around the lava which means its important to kill all the lava snakes in advance 02:17:50 minmay: OK, I'll let regret-index know. 02:28:06 -!- JoeltCo has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:30:08 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 02:33:58 -!- HeithinnGrasida has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:34:16 -!- HeithinnGrasida has joined ##crawl-dev 02:42:19 -!- introsp3ctive has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:21 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:47:42 -!- ArseElementalist has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:53:40 -!- introsp3ctive1 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:23 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-733-gf92fd71 02:57:40 -!- introsp3ctive has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:47 -!- TZer0 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:07:16 -!- SteelNeuron has joined ##crawl-dev 03:09:27 -!- mong has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.6] 03:23:04 Stable (0.19) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.19.4-10-g532645f 03:26:22 -!- bgiannan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:27:36 As always I was asleep through all the IJC (WJC, rather) discussion :) 03:28:09 I've been reading the logs, some good points on balance... I have some ideas about how to tweak that, when I coincide with some devs here 03:30:41 -!- bgiannan1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:32:08 I do think the idea of lowering base damage for whirlwind is workable... But it comes with some risks. 03:34:16 -!- tantanoid has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:36:20 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.20-a0-733-gf92fd71 (34) 03:39:04 I might open a tavern thread to get around the timezone issue 03:39:48 tavern: defeating time zones 03:43:36 -!- kobby has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:45:38 can felids use IJC effectively? 03:48:38 yup, the current iteration of the god has no relation whatsoever to weapons 03:48:55 I'd say felids make very good worshippers 03:49:04 was mostly wondering about heaven on earth 03:49:06 fast races use Heaven on Earth better, slow races get more use out of Serpent's Lash 03:49:19 but i must admit i'm not really up to speed on how ijc currently works 03:49:24 oh 03:49:32 im awake 03:49:42 Heaven on Earth just summons a constantly barrage of fog (meant to look like gold, currently looking like mustard) 03:49:46 constant* 03:50:01 the best mustard looks like gold though 03:50:02 and gives you a rapidly shifting Slay bonus, that goes up with every target you attack with martial moves, and down quickly over time 03:50:04 -!- LordSloth has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 03:50:22 ah 03:51:41 I think I'll make a proper big post at the Tavern with my take on how to tone down the god and the risks that I can see associated with certain approaches... And then I can get some criticism on that :) 03:53:02 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:55:01 (the way you draw gold instead of mustard is the change the color ramp) 03:56:12 really, the only difference between gold and mustard is that they don't award mustard to olympic champions 03:56:26 Hmm... So that would make it shimmer more wouldn't it 03:56:36 btw I love the new tile for Heaven on Earth 03:56:41 thanks! :) 03:57:07 SteelNeuron: i'm also going to use the old swooshy tile for SL i think 03:58:32 -!- blisterpack has quit [Client Quit] 04:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:18 yep! that's alright 04:01:25 btw ontoclasm, how do you feel about the altar tile? 04:01:37 I'm definitely not an artist so I can't really judge if it's decent. It probably isn't 04:02:13 If it gets changed, I would like for the general shape to be the same though, I think it does a decent job conveying the evasive-agile theme :) 04:04:32 it looks fine but i might edit it to make it a bit clearer 04:05:10 -!- jbenedetto has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:06:13 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06:13 -!- Mezriss has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:10:42 smaug would probably look less stupid covered in mustard 04:12:47 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:14:50 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: I'M OUT SON. PEACE, LOVE, EXPLOSIONS.] 04:14:53 -!- laj1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:19:21 -!- Cerpin has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:35:14 -!- rhovland has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:38:37 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:41:39 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:50:04 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23161 04:50:15 life imitates art imitates... 04:50:41 -!- rumflump has joined ##crawl-dev 04:52:02 -!- tksquared_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:52:12 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:59:22 -!- FunkyBomb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00:15 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:35 minmay: the thing i don't get 05:02:04 whenever "hey guys i love flavor, let's implement this thing for no reason other than flavor" topics like that come up 05:02:17 they always have weird florid descriptions of whatever it is 05:02:46 why not just say "monks in other games often use staves" 05:10:10 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:10:23 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:14:49 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 05:19:10 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:19:37 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:20:03 ontoclasm: When I was new to roguelikes, I just assumed that things were done for the sake of realism, that the genre was meant to be simulationist. It took me a while to realize that the goals of DCSS aren't at all that 05:20:20 But when you have that frame of reference... A lot of things can seem like an oversight 05:20:53 That's how it felt to me at least 05:21:44 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:21:49 Like... Obviously butchering with a cursed venom dagger should poison chunks! 05:21:49 -!- Pacra__ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:22:36 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:25:12 yeah, i understand 05:25:24 i just absolutely abhor simulationism 05:25:37 -!- bannakaffalatta has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 05:25:40 it ruins every game that attempts it, with no exceptions 05:26:22 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:30:21 well 05:30:29 I agree... With perhaps one exception 05:30:44 leveling systems. They're anti-simulationist, and I think they're generally bad 05:31:20 I mean, there's no reason grounded on reality why fighting monsters for a given amount of time should make you able to resist 100 hammer blows to the head where you could only resist 1 before 05:32:11 But on the flip side, games that try to go for the "you skill up what you use" are always broken so... 05:32:34 (I still remember spamming jump upstairs in Morrowind to get the maximum jumps per second) 05:33:09 levels work because they're what people are used to. it takes no extra explanation work 05:33:25 but I do like the ones where avoiding or disabling foes is just as good for your character as murdering them all like a slasher film 05:40:57 -!- jeefus has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:28 -!- jefus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:46:44 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 05:53:36 SteelNeuron: well, leveling is sort of uninspired, but "grounded in reality" is exactly what's not required 05:54:05 fighting monsters makes you better at medicine because as you play the game you should get stronger 05:54:57 My favorite player power systems are all risk-reward based. I want to go into this cave. I can take this gear worth 100G, or this other set of gear worth 1000000G that will make me 30% more effective 05:54:58 real-world considerations just encourage us to build things that don't encourage the effects we actually want 05:55:13 Eve Online does it so well (in a completely different context) 05:55:45 but in the end, whether or not you clear the cave is down to the particular specialization of your gear. Right resists, right tools... 05:56:00 personally i think progression of any kind is sort of bad but it's so ground into gamer culture now that there's no avoiding it 05:56:05 of course, you need to lose it on death for any of this to work :) 05:56:42 to put it another way, it's bad design, but it's fun, so it gets an override 05:56:50 yeah... 05:57:03 For a while, I wanted to make a crawl fork where consumables worked very differently 05:57:50 you had a "belt" of some description, with only a few choices. I didn't work out how to lock that choice per branch though 05:58:08 But I liked the idea of "I want to go into Spider, I'll take three of these, two of these, and one of these" 06:00:00 -!- omarax_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:33 sounds kinda cool, if the doors lock behind you. thematically, at least. you can carry a golf cart full of weapons and consumables in D, but to enter a branch you have to pare down to something marginally more reasonable 06:01:44 -!- n_crm has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:01:52 exactly, but I'm not sure how well crawl works under the "you're locked into this branch" model 06:02:28 the closest I got to making it work is to model the inventory as a bit of a backpack 06:02:33 make a 7drl and try it out :) 06:02:38 you had an accessible area in your belt 06:02:42 where consumables take normal time to use 06:02:50 and the backpack, where you take a ton of time to find one 06:03:42 ye olde 10 item hotbar 06:03:51 something like that :) 06:05:40 -!- eb has quit [Quit: I quit] 06:10:00 should I "squash" and merge my development branch into my base branch, or just merge? 06:14:53 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:30:15 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:30:36 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:30:57 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:32:40 -!- wheals_ has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 06:33:10 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:19 -!- Fixer has joined ##crawl-dev 06:50:44 -!- Pacra__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:50:54 -!- Pacra__ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:56:27 SteelNeuron: oh yeah 06:56:27 does the council use invo 06:56:32 nope 06:56:35 k 06:56:55 there is a secret tile that needs to be made for gods that do 06:58:02 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:59:55 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:19 -!- SteelNeuron has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:02:59 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 07:03:14 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:05:56 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:08:36 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:09:34 -!- SteelNeuron has joined ##crawl-dev 07:10:36 secret tile? :O 07:13:37 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:17:37 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:47 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:20:57 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:27:39 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:27:50 -!- bgiannan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:30:49 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:31:14 -!- Senjai has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:32:19 -!- bgiannan1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:36:10 -!- robertmeta has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:37:14 -!- axujen has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:37:37 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:37:37 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:37:38 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:48 -!- robertmeta_ is now known as robertmeta 07:49:44 -!- tksquared has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 07:50:07 -!- Rast has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 07:50:38 -!- Rast has joined ##crawl-dev 07:50:56 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:54:00 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:58:29 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:03:22 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:06 -!- sooheon has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:06:32 -!- wheals_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:32 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:32 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:08 -!- Dixie has quit [Quit: lates] 08:15:44 Stable (0.19) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.19.4-10-g532645f 08:29:17 -!- bannakaffalatta has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ€¦] 08:34:38 New branch created: pull/470 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/470 08:34:38 03fixit_friend02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/470 * 0.20-a0-734-gfa2c8d3: correct cerol_debeers creation guide for new enums 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fa2c8d37324e 08:35:00 -!- yesno has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:38:39 -!- yesno__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:44:58 03fixit_friend02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/470 * 0.20-a0-735-ga217d59: also correct mutation creation guide for new enums 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a217d59a4542 08:59:11 -!- mroovka has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 51.0.1/20170125094131]] 09:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:55 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16:23 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:23:51 -!- soundlust has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 09:27:00 -!- zxc has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:27:14 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:27:30 Wall of text alert: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23166 09:30:51 -!- laj1 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:36:09 I need to play an IJC char at some point 09:36:25 SteelNeuron: you may have noticed that discussion about "difficulty" in crawl are really hard, overall 09:36:29 :-) 09:36:47 yup! 09:36:47 I personally don't care whether the god is strong or weak 09:37:00 But to remain fun, it needs to be a glass cannon 09:37:11 I think that means we need more glass, right now 09:38:11 maybe I'm off because I haven't played any but I did get the impression that one concern is that there are power spikes under specific choices 09:38:18 at least that's what I inferred from that centaur post 09:38:27 I should play some before I talk though 09:39:19 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:39:59 My argument in the thread is that power spikes are very clearly correlated with high AC/HP 09:40:26 you can think of the god as condensing what you would've done in 100 turns in a corridor, to 10 turns in the open 09:40:34 high ac/hp can give you a win as an atheist, or with Xom, so I'm not sure one specific god has to shoulder the blame for "my high-defenses character with blade hands had an easy win!! nerf god lol" 09:40:35 you hit many enemies in the open at once, you get hit many times at once 09:41:09 -!- wheals__ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:41:12 If you take it to the extreme and have unlimited HP, the distinction is trivial 09:41:35 but in the realm of... These guys in front of me can kill me, having that extra bit of variance carries a lot of risk 09:42:13 so that's why (I think) the god is much stronger for high mitigation builds, proportionally more so than other melee gods 09:43:24 And yes, that Centaur post is a prime example of the god's weakness being completely trivialized 09:43:38 almost 300 hp + extra movement to get out of harm's way when anything goes wrong :) 09:43:42 and a bunch of AC 09:44:40 -!- wheals_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:46:35 -!- Alarkh has joined ##crawl-dev 09:48:09 reading that ce post in more detail the question for me (non-dev but great/greaterplayer) would be less about the lategame op stuff and more about what made that character easy in the early game 09:48:13 -!- eb has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:48:13 "Centaur's ability to create space between a mob and use the god's "lunge" to hit them for extra damage made every big baddy a joke." 09:49:02 the comparison to qaz makes me not entirely trust the full assessment 09:49:35 yeah... I mean, Lunge isn't that great of a boost 130% at the moment 09:49:43 although I propose taking that down to 110% in my tavern post 09:49:52 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:50:24 !lairratio * ijc 09:50:24 I can't imagine that a 30% damage boost when lunging is enough to make enemies a joke though, it's around the same as amulet of harm 09:50:29 * (ijc) has reached Lair in 546 of 1486 attempts: 37% 09:50:33 !lairratio * trog 09:50:42 * (trog) has reached Lair in 91668 of 592478 attempts: 15% 09:50:45 !lairratio * fedhas 09:50:49 * (fedhas) has reached Lair in 5608 of 21708 attempts: 26% 09:50:56 !lairratio * qazlal 09:51:00 * (qazlal) has reached Lair in 14044 of 45808 attempts: 31% 09:51:22 More relevant: luring and reaching with a centaur is much, much better than luring and lunging 09:51:31 and that's trivial to prove, but that's nothing new 09:52:18 SteelNeuron: well I think the concern would be a specific combination with ce's fast movement 09:52:18 a 30% damage boost in the early game could make a difference 09:53:16 why is that so? 09:53:53 well, if you really really simplify things 09:54:11 and consider incoming DPS as a function of auts spent adjacent to a melee monster 09:54:35 every time you lunge, you let the monster use 8 full auts against you 09:54:51 and then you go back to the chase where you have an advantage 09:55:27 if you instead run and reach, the monster needs to spend however much energy it needs to reach you, so it will stay adjacent to you for a much shorted period of time overall 09:55:34 shorter* 09:55:49 that's way more efficient than exploiting the 30% damage boost 09:55:59 hm, I'm not entirely sure I am following 09:56:38 in the early game (where I'm interested in) a polearm attack will almost certainly take long enough that monsters can hit you 09:56:46 & polearm damage is balanced against reaching 09:56:57 ??spear 09:56:57 spear[1/1]: (polearms; +4 acc / 6 dam / 1.1 base delay / 0.5 min delay). A hunting weapon consisting of a wooden shaft with a pointed metal head fastened on one end. 09:57:08 if you have 2, or better yet 4 weapons skill 09:57:28 you can back up a lot, poking occasionally, and never be hit by a speed 10 monster 09:57:45 well, even with a spear energy will get you eventually 09:57:57 yeah, but that's the key point, eventually ;) 09:58:00 with lunge it will get you always 09:58:09 it can, but in practice it's extremely safe and effective 09:58:11 but I don't think people are using spears in early lair 09:58:15 energy wise it's equivalent to tabbing 09:58:58 I wonder if it would be possible to gimmick up some mods to fsim to produce data for these scenarios 09:59:25 if a centaur takes one hit occasionally while polearming things, that's still a lot better than taking a hit every single time you attack 09:59:27 even with regular weapons I usually find it impossible to figure comparisons out with just theory :-) 10:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:19 if the comparison is between 30 hits with a spear and two hits with a damage-boosted attack of some other kind, I'm not so confident of that 10:01:18 -!- soundlust_ has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 10:01:22 I guess you haven't tried it? 10:01:31 ijc? no 10:01:39 polearm centaurs in general 10:01:48 I have played some centaurs 10:01:49 it works quite well 10:03:22 -!- HeithinnGrasida has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:03:41 like I said, I think something like fsim would be the way to do the comparison if a comparison is needed 10:03:43 -!- HeithinnGrasida has joined ##crawl-dev 10:04:23 -!- Cerpin has joined ##crawl-dev 10:04:45 The take home message, I think 10:04:58 Is that if you're willing to play the patient game with Ce and exploit your move speed to the fullest, you'll have an easy game anyway 10:05:40 IJC just makes the process a bit more varied than lure + reach, which can make the god appear to be doing the work :) 10:06:15 but judging by the tactics he claimed to be using (luring and lunging repeteadly) I don't think his success is necessarily a merit of the god choice... 10:06:40 maybe 10:06:50 I think the concern is that CeTm is not by any means an easy start 10:07:02 so if it was in fact easy in a systematic way, then something is up 10:07:23 but it's hard to be sure from one data point 10:07:49 CeTm is an easy start advic 10:07:53 if you're an experienced player 10:07:54 *advil 10:08:07 hm, ok, I haven't played any, and don't like Tms 10:08:27 so maybe I'm wrong about that 10:10:02 gammafunk: is it easier than other Ce starts? or just similar to other Ce starts? 10:12:13 For just winning it's not the easiest start, I'm not sure I could precisely place its difficulty for other Ce starts. Starting with spells generally makes you strong with careful tactics 10:12:46 It's not the hardest start either I think, most certainly due to a summon-like spell you can get at XL2 10:13:33 But Ce can run away so easily that with careful tactics 10:13:42 s/that // 10:13:56 it's a sanddemon post, so I mostly read it as "wow guys I just discovered that centaurs have hp, ac, and move speed" 10:14:20 hp......is good....??? 10:15:11 I want more pictures of HPiderman on the front page now. 10:18:15 just to clarify I'm totally on board with the opinion that the god is too strong 10:18:25 I'm just pointing out that this sort of build is precisely where the power spike is 10:18:33 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:18:36 (adjusting for other factors, like the combination being good by itself) 10:18:48 did this ability work, was it a playable experimental at some point? https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ff49a73b3792ce87e2628ef1c6299877c8c5bedc#diff-910b56a05501fc73f4ae1d158ef2bc1e 10:20:00 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:22:08 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:propose:forge_dvarf 10:23:19 neat, thanks. learndb and tavern came up dry 10:23:19 looks like it probably was a branch in the main repository, but never made it further 10:23:29 I'm not sure they had experimentals in the same way back then 10:23:40 more backstory: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4894 10:24:04 hey SteelNeuron 10:24:14 hey :) 10:26:14 I saw your tavern response where you say, "I spelled out the reasons why I think this wouldn't work on the OP". I wasn't able to figure out where it had been addressed -- could you fill me in? 10:27:25 Sure! It's under the "Should the martial attacks be nerfed" spoiler tag, second paragraph 10:28:05 <|amethyst> rumflump: not that one specifically, but 10:28:09 It's about any change that would remove the direct dependencies between them, whether or not it involves them having different strengths 10:29:02 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:02 What you're describing in that chunk is about balancing the abilities against each other, particularly preventing lunging abuse. If none of them do extra damage, then there's no concern about balancing the abilities or lunging abuse. 10:29:10 <|amethyst> rumflump: there was an experimental branch for a god of smithing and fire (Igni Ipthes, branch smithgod and smithgod_rebased) 10:29:24 Lasty: there is, indirectly 10:29:30 <|amethyst> rumflump: that was playable as an experimental on CSZO and maybe CBRO for a while 10:29:32 except in that case, lunge wouldn't be the one abused 10:29:44 in fact lunge becomes strictly bad (except for the stabbing case) 10:30:41 In any case, I don't think this is a problem at the moment 10:30:45 not true; it's still good when you want to close distance to a dangerous target; monsters with ranged attacks, polearms, etc. 10:31:02 wall jump does that better still most of the time, but I see what you mean 10:31:26 regardless, I don't think I've seen any complaint about the debuffs, they seem to be doing their job and the kit flows well 10:31:35 the only problem I've seen brought up a couple times 10:31:42 a 100% damage lunge still has all sorts of use cases. getting to a boggart faster, hitting a fast adder first without having to figure out whether it's about to take a "double move" relative to you or not, poor man's dith blink to unaware targets 10:31:44 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:31:50 is that for irrelevant fights, players are still feeling like they should be whirlwinding 10:32:02 and they may want to just not bother 10:32:53 <|amethyst> yeah, I feel like whirlwind should do less damage than cleaving 10:32:53 rumflump: right, but then it's very linear. The thing about current lunge is that it's an option among many 10:32:58 My concern is about whether it stays fun to play this god for an entire game, and even for multiple games. It seems like commentators are mostly happy with it so far, so maybe that's not a problem. If it's not, then it's a solution in search of a problem and can be ignored. :) 10:33:05 <|amethyst> or equal to cleaving 10:33:17 |amethyst: agreed. About cleaving sounds right 10:33:39 <|amethyst> well, less if it's going to inflict status effects too :) 10:33:59 well... cleaving does full damage against one target 10:34:06 this would deal reduced damage against everything 10:34:06 SteelNeuron: for trivial fights, players should definitely be using the god's whole kit -- it means ending the fight with higher health and less time spent, which makes it less likely that things go bad somehow. 10:34:13 -!- MadCoyote has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 10:35:13 Lasty: I agree, but it's not about making tab the optimal choice again, either 10:35:19 learning and executing patterns against trivial foes is good to help prevent miskeys in a more serious fight 10:35:27 when you see a monster, you should wonder if it's worth attempting to slow it 10:35:36 or if you deal enough damage than you'd better kill it outright 10:35:55 both choices should be valid, where at the moment you should only whirlwind 10:36:18 (in both cases, lunge is still fine to do, but there's nothing tedious about lunge because it's literally walking against a monster) 10:36:24 ditto for walljump 10:37:15 psychologically, if a player just wants to tab through an easy branch, I think it's good that they don't feel they're playing 100% suboptimally, at least there is some tradeoff to what they're doing 10:38:27 I sounds to me like tabbing through an easy branch will always be suboptimal with this god 10:38:50 even with whirlwind giving slightly less damage and significant slow chances 10:39:08 *it sounds 10:39:37 Well 10:39:38 -!- laj1 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:39:42 crawl is full of instances of that 10:39:51 our previous discussion about Ce, for example 10:40:09 It is always suboptimal not to lure + reach with a pole centaur 10:40:09 yeah, player fast movement is kind of a problem 10:40:23 same with out of combat charm recasting and many others 10:40:35 I don't think it's fine as long as the suboptimal choice has some facet that makes it good 10:40:36 Yeah, exactly. We're trying to fix those things. 10:40:38 it's wrong* 10:40:48 -!- Smello has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:40:56 is it worse to tab against a rat than to do the whole martial dance? Yes, probably 10:41:05 but on the flip side, you might not waste auts overshooting it 10:41:28 :shrug: again, it's really about fun. If people are finding it fun to play the god, then it doesn't matter if it takes more time or that tab is suboptimal, etc. 10:43:08 -!- Pleasingfungus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:43:24 Again, I haven't played the more recent drafts, so I should try them out before I make any strong arguments. 10:44:52 Sure :) you still raise very good points 10:45:06 You've always been the most vocal critic of status effects on martial arts, and I promise I have listened 10:45:12 I've tried out many permutations of that 10:45:52 -!- soundlust_ has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 10:46:11 SteelNeuron: I know you have, and I've really appreciated how willing you are to earnestly engage with constructive criticism. It's a rare quality! 10:47:52 If I hadn't, the god wouldn't be in trunk (and would be much worse) 10:48:04 In fact, most of the current design is related to your first review of it back then 10:51:46 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 10:51:48 That's true. And of course listening constructive criticism doesn't always mean agreeing with it or taking action on it. :) 10:51:59 -!- Rast has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 10:52:15 Sometimes things just work, even if on paper they don't sound right, and this may well be one of those situations. 10:52:17 -!- Rast has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55:50 Now that the god is in Trunk though, I don't have free reign to do whatever I want with it hehe 10:56:05 So instead I'll just voice my opinion like everyone else! (Through walls of text) 10:57:45 <|amethyst> maybe we should do something about that 10:58:23 preposterous. 10:59:30 I was wondering, how are the edge case of slow weapons managed ? (dark maul for instance, or just any weapon you dont have at min delay) 10:59:53 So, you don't attack once per move, you attack N times per move 10:59:54 -are +is 11:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:05 N can be 0, and it averages to the same amount of attacks per aut 11:00:31 in the extreme case of dark maul (say that you're unskilled and it takes 30 auts for an attack) a normal speed species will trigger a martial attack once every three moves 11:00:31 Oh ok, so you get an attack every 3 turns if you have 0 maces and flail ? 11:00:43 yes 11:00:48 Much better than being stuck 3 turns i guess 11:01:08 yeah, changing the speed at which you move was a big no-no from the beginning :) 11:01:52 -!- soundlust_ has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 11:03:19 ok thanks :p 11:03:23 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 11:04:14 Now i want to try wall jump + quick blade :p 11:05:52 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:07 -!- Pacra__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:06:15 one of the benefits of this new scaling, Alarkh, is that it made stabbers reasonable again hehe 11:06:22 because only the first of your flurry of attacks is actually a stab 11:06:22