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00:59:44 <Brannock> wow someone necro'd a year-old thread
00:59:52 <Brannock> time to put him to the question...
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01:55:15 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please.
01:55:17 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??servers for instructions. | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: http://termcast.develz.org - ??footv for instructions | See also ##crawl-offtopic
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02:45:30 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-351-gc9b4002
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03:28:59 <Rotatell> Experimental (councilgod-PR) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.20-a0-548-gad3071d
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03:44:00 <alexjurkiewicz> Brannock: i think that person is saying they want less powergaming / more non-optimal builds (like say DESk) to be viable
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04:40:26 <SteelNeuron> !messages
04:40:27 <Sequell> No messages for SteelNeuron.
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10:33:06 <newbie999> hi guys, anyone online atm to help ?
10:33:24 <newbie999> technical issue with the game
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10:39:22 <newbie999> here is the problem, it is kinda critical one: https://dpaste.de/XvAw/raw
10:55:32 <gammafunk> hrm
10:56:22 <gammafunk> newbie999: does it repeatedly crash when you do something specific?
10:56:45 <newbie999> Yes, crash 100% of the time with specific pick
10:57:01 <gammafunk> ok, what are you doing when this crash happens?
10:57:05 <newbie999> Crash on start Hint Tutorial
10:57:11 <gammafunk> ok, let me try that
10:57:13 <Brannock> High Elf, eh
10:57:15 <newbie999> Crashes right away
10:57:25 <MarvinPA> haha, nice
10:57:36 <gammafunk> ah
10:57:36 <gammafunk> nice
10:57:40 <gammafunk> wow, does tutorial use that species?
10:57:46 <gammafunk> now I'm pretty sure I would have seen this...
10:57:50 <gammafunk> when I removed them
10:58:11 <gammafunk> in fact I seem to even recall running into this
10:58:13 <Brannock> he's playing 0.19.1 so I don't think it's HE interaction
10:58:23 <gammafunk> yeah right
10:58:28 <MarvinPA> ah, damn
10:58:32 <gammafunk> phew!
10:58:47 <gammafunk> I'm compiling tiles on 0.19.1 right now
10:59:07 <gammafunk> it's probably not a tiles-related thing tho
10:59:26 <gammafunk> newbie999: so you just start the game, and choose the tutorial, and it crashes?
10:59:29 <Brannock> it *might* be, there are some weird differences between webtiles and local tiles
10:59:37 <Brannock> but I doubt it
10:59:48 <gammafunk> well that there are, but there's otherwise no indication that this is one of those cases
10:59:57 <newbie999> Yes and this is not all
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11:00:18 <newbie999> The weird part is that it crash from installer, but seems work from zip
11:00:24 <gammafunk> hrm
11:00:35 <gammafunk> what windows OS do you have?
11:00:56 <newbie999> Windows 7 64 bit and both installer crashes (32bit and 64 bits)
11:01:13 <newbie999> I will try now zip 32 bit also
11:01:18 <newbie999> To check it
11:01:27 <gammafunk> oh, you found the 64-bit one from the releases folder?
11:01:36 <gammafunk> I removed the link to the 64-bit one!
11:01:38 <newbie999> YEah
11:01:41 <gammafunk> ok, cool
11:01:49 <gammafunk> so yeah, might be something broken about the installer
11:02:08 <gammafunk> hence my compilation here probably won't help! I'll try starting up the windows vm I have
11:02:33 <gammafunk> Brannock: if you have windows and can run the installer, can you check the tutorial?
11:02:45 <Brannock> sure, gimme a few minutes
11:02:46 <gammafunk> newbie999: since you're using the installer, can you also try the console version?
11:02:51 <gammafunk> see if its tutorial crashes
11:02:59 <Brannock> I'm on Windows 10 though
11:03:06 <gammafunk> sure, but we want to know
11:03:09 <Brannock> yup
11:03:10 <gammafunk> if it's an all-windows thing
11:03:14 <gammafunk> or what
11:03:18 <gammafunk> I also only have win 10
11:03:29 <gammafunk> I have an old win 8 vm I *think*
11:03:32 <gammafunk> maybe I deleted it
11:03:40 <newbie999> Both zip version works fine
11:03:42 <gammafunk> no I have it, but yeah don't have win7
11:03:58 <newbie999> Console allowed to start Hint mode but crash on window close
11:04:07 <gammafunk> oh that's weird
11:04:09 <Brannock> Tutorial works on tiles installer
11:04:09 <newbie999> This may be another issue
11:04:32 <newbie999> Not tutorial, but Hint one with advanced hints
11:04:54 <gammafunk> sorry, are you using that or the tutorial?
11:05:04 <newbie999> I using the latter
11:05:05 <Brannock> Hints mode works for me
11:05:15 <Brannock> Might be machine specific?
11:05:24 <newbie999> Hints crash every time for me, but only from installer
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11:06:58 <gammafunk> ok, hints mode is fine in tiles for me on linux, so let me try my windows
11:09:02 <gammafunk> newbie999: when you installed, did you install for "all users" or just yourself?
11:09:14 <newbie999> All users
11:09:31 <newbie999> I can test the other too
11:09:33 <Brannock> I installed for all users as well
11:10:00 <Pleasingfungus> newbie999: do other modes work? is it just the tutorial that crashes?
11:10:18 <Pleasingfungus> er, just hint mode, i guess
11:10:38 <newbie999> This is the one I faced. Tutorial seems working
11:11:16 <newbie999> Actually
11:11:30 <newbie999> Tutorial crashed just now too
11:12:04 <newbie999> The usual mode crash too
11:12:15 <newbie999> So it seems they all don't work
11:12:24 <gammafunk> I just tested in win8, hints mode worked ok
11:13:02 <newbie999> All modes works from zip
11:13:04 <Pleasingfungus> good, since i have no idea why only the hints mode would crash.
11:13:07 <newbie999> Either 32 bit and 64 bit zips
11:13:16 <gammafunk> yeah, not sure what the installer would be doing differently either
11:13:19 <newbie999> But installer modes all crashes
11:13:22 <Brannock> newbie999, do you have another machine available to you?
11:13:27 <gammafunk> no one here has a win7 machine
11:13:53 <gammafunk> I also haven't seen any other reports, but it's certainly possible that they just haven't come in
11:13:56 <Brannock> if you have like a spare laptop or something that you could test the installer on, that'd help narrow down if it's machine specific
11:14:10 <gammafunk> *if* it's running the same OS
11:14:11 <newbie999> Yeah, I have Windows 10 too
11:14:24 <gammafunk> if it's another machine with another OS it won't tell us too much
11:15:13 <newbie999> The path to folder don't affect crash, i.e. it crash everytime from, installer
11:15:29 <newbie999> I first suspected bad path, but nope
11:15:40 <gammafunk> yeah, at this point it seems to be something specific to win7 + installer
11:15:49 <gammafunk> but again we don't have a win7 machine to do further debugging with
11:16:28 <gammafunk> newbie999: what you could do for us is open a bug report, so at least we can have this basic info recorded
11:16:31 <gammafunk> ??mantis
11:16:31 <Sequell> mantis[1/2]: To report bugs or submit new content like vaults, patches or tiles, go to: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php
11:17:06 <gammafunk> but for now, it's probably going to have to be "use the zips on win7" until we have a way to recreate this
11:17:16 <gammafunk> installers are working on win 8.1 and win 10
11:17:20 <Lantell> M4edhros (L23 OpCK) ASSERT(map_bounds(pbolt.target) || !(flags & SPFLAG_TARGETING_MASK)) in 'mon-cast.cc' at line 5699 failed. (Elf:3)
11:17:39 <gammafunk> it's entirely possible that there's something about our installer setup and win7, although I don't recall issues from previous releases
11:17:50 <gammafunk> and nothing about install has changed
11:17:59 <newbie999> Where can I find old installer to test ?
11:18:11 <gammafunk> releases folder
11:18:11 <gammafunk> where you found that 64-bit version
11:18:13 <Pleasingfungus> oh, i can run a win 7 test at some point
11:18:18 <Pleasingfungus> not right this second, but someone should remind me
11:18:18 <gammafunk> yeah, that's a good idea, try the 0.18 installer
11:18:26 <gammafunk> Pleasingfungus: cool, that would help
11:18:37 <gammafunk> the only thing that's a bit different is the host machine used to compile the release
11:18:46 <gammafunk> as in previous released was compiled on my machine here
11:18:57 <gammafunk> and this one was compiled on an aws instance
11:19:14 <gammafunk> but again just using the same cross-compiler package (however a more recent debian)
11:19:44 <gammafunk> so last release was ubuntu 15.06 or something, this time latest ubuntu (and using mingw both times)
11:20:00 <gammafunk> but I don't know that this could affect the installer
11:20:33 <gammafunk> someone else could try making a 0.19.1 installer on their system with the cross-compiler
11:20:39 <gammafunk> and see if newbie999 gets a crash
11:22:21 <gammafunk> as I recall, we actually don't have a way to build the installer natively, it had a path problem when brannock tried from msys2
11:22:29 <gammafunk> something very fixable probably, but I didn't look into it
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11:22:37 <gammafunk> and it might work in cygwin for all I know
11:23:35 <newbie999> Yeah, guys
11:23:39 <newbie999> So
11:24:02 <newbie999> Crash starting from 0.19.0 installer, 0.18.1 work fine
11:24:08 <gammafunk> ok
11:24:19 <gammafunk> what may have happened is an update to the nsis package
11:24:46 <gammafunk> let me go check the versions
11:25:06 <gammafunk> if current ubuntu has a more recent nsis package, this might have a crash on win7
11:25:20 <gammafunk> but if we could get someone else on win7 to test, that would help tell us for sure
11:26:09 <gammafunk> there's any number of packages that would be different on the compile host (my current laptop at the time of 0.18 vs the aws instance)
11:26:26 <gammafunk> hrm, 0.18 was in the ubuntu 16 version I want to say
11:26:56 <gammafunk> I need to check what I actually compiled it under
11:28:36 <gammafunk> damn it, how is it that my win 8.1 vm updates and shuts down in like 3 minutes
11:28:54 <gammafunk> and the win10 one, which was updated way more recently, is going to take like 15 or something
11:31:13 <gammafunk> 17% windows 10 y u do dis
11:33:27 <geekosaur> because win10 gets full combo updaters, win8.1 gets individual updates
11:33:38 <gammafunk> full combo?
11:33:50 <geekosaur> your win8.1 might take an update that switches it to combo updaters too, iirc everything post-win7 is being moved to that
11:33:58 <geekosaur> every patch since the OS release in one bundle
11:34:09 <geekosaur> instead of just the patches you're missing
11:34:23 <gammafunk> well it's on the "Configuring update" phase
11:34:31 <gammafunk> which I assume wouldn't be affected by that?
11:34:40 <gammafunk> sounds like you're saying the download would take longer
11:34:53 <gammafunk> unless it's like re-applying all those past updates, or something
11:35:13 <geekosaur> both the download and the configuring part, since it needs to test for each one (no, apparently it does not simply check the patch list in the registry)
11:35:19 <gammafunk> ug
11:35:25 <geekosaur> (apparently there were some botched updates and the patch list isn't accurate)
11:35:32 <geekosaur> ...which is why they went combo
11:35:44 <gammafunk> !flip Windows
11:35:45 <Sequell> (╯°□°)╯︵sʍ°puᴉM
11:35:46 <geekosaur> iirc it was some hotfixes that didn't register themselves
11:36:17 <geekosaur> and then caused the next official updates to silently fail
11:36:18 <gammafunk> I can't expect too much running in virtualbox but win8.1 was really fast
11:36:45 <geekosaur> so now they have to get full patches and install them in paranoid don't-trust-anything mode
11:37:45 <LordSloth> I might have a laptop with windows 7 on it, or I upgraded it to windows 10. I'll check after coffee
11:37:59 <gammafunk> thx
11:38:14 <gammafunk> specifically try the 0.19.1 installer
11:38:25 <gammafunk> I'm guessing some packages changed between OS versions
11:38:53 <gammafunk> I'm running the same OS on the aws instance as I am this machine, but at the time of 0.18 I think I compiled on this machine and the ubuntu was older
11:39:00 * geekosaur has a win7 vm on a thumb drive... that he can't use, because he made it in parallels but dropped parallels when p7 turned out to be a steaming pile, and converting to vmware causes windows to deactivate itself and demand a magic code to reactivate
11:39:23 <gammafunk> sounds about right
11:39:34 <gammafunk> I ran parallels for a bit when I was on a macbook
11:39:40 <gammafunk> it did work well, but I didn't use it a lot
11:40:12 <geekosaur> to be fair, it *does* look like a complete hardware change to the OS, so it has some justification to say "hey something fishy here, maybe someone stole the HD and is trying to crack it"
11:41:13 <geekosaur> parallels 5 and 6 were great, I was using 8 small VMs at once for network filesystem stress testing. parallels 7 choked when I started the third VM
11:41:52 <geekosaur> went back and forth with their tech support, was told this was expected, did a vmware crossgrade and never looked back
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11:46:14 <LordSloth> Outta luck, upgraded to 10.
11:46:23 <gammafunk> No one seems to have windows 7
11:46:31 <gammafunk> does it truly exist...
11:46:51 <LordSloth> At one point MS didn't forcefully install, but did forcefully DL windows 10
11:47:00 <LordSloth> hard to resist in a moment's weakness
11:47:09 <gammafunk> you have failed us all, LordSloth
11:47:20 <LordSloth> I might have a more ancient laptop i shall rummage for
11:47:32 <gammafunk> sorry about having to bias your online game RNG towards "always junk artefacts"
11:48:04 <gammafunk> (the twist is everyone's online games already use this RNG!)
11:49:32 <gammafunk> Getting Windows ready. Don't turn off your computer.
11:49:32 <gammafunk> I'm kind of in the process of turning off my computer, Windows. That's what I asked you to do
11:50:33 <newbie999> I just tested in virtual machine with windows 7 and there wasn't crash
11:51:07 <LordSloth> Good, cause my older laptop is literally buried
11:54:13 <newbie999> Just did another thing, renamed crawl folder with saves and morgue - no crash anymore
11:54:18 <newbie999> So it is related there
11:55:10 <gammafunk> oh
11:55:16 <gammafunk> newbie999: what is your local username
11:55:30 <gammafunk> on this win7 system
11:55:38 <gammafunk> specifically does it use any non-latin characters
11:55:48 <gammafunk> you don't have to tell me the name, but there was a crash related to this
11:55:51 <newbie999> Username is fully in english, so it is not that issue
11:55:55 <gammafunk> ok
11:56:21 <gammafunk> hrm, you said you tried with a different install path though
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11:56:47 <newbie999> Yeah, I read about this char issue from google first too
11:56:57 <gammafunk> no, I mean
11:57:03 <gammafunk> not sure why renaming the crawl folder would have an effect
11:57:08 <gammafunk> if choosing a different install path didn't
11:57:24 <gammafunk> I suppose it's the application data where your account's DCSS stuff goes?
11:57:24 <newbie999> It seems the problem is with that folder somewhere
11:57:29 <geekosaur> spaces?
11:57:30 <newbie999> Yeah
11:57:41 <gammafunk> yeah, spaces could cause a problem I guess
11:58:10 <newbie999> No spaces
11:58:17 <gammafunk> incredibly, windows 10 finished updating
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11:58:51 <gammafunk> oh my god
11:58:56 <gammafunk> it starts and goes into applying updates...
11:59:33 <gammafunk> ok, right, I can just download the zips to see this
11:59:37 <gammafunk> don't need the installer to run
11:59:56 <dpeg> I've got some time for the oubliettes. Did git pull (Your branch is behind by 2940 commits.) After pulling, I can work in my branch as before?
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12:00:27 <gammafunk> well, it'd probably be a good idea to merge master
12:00:34 <gammafunk> I can go merge it right quick dpeg
12:01:06 <newbie999> Heh, found another possible issue during this, I just renamed only rogue folder - with this game dont start at all.
12:01:13 <newbie999> morgue*
12:01:50 <gammafunk> what do you mean "renamed"?
12:01:57 <newbie999> Like other name
12:02:03 <newbie999> Not common thing, but still
12:02:10 <newbie999> May worth attention
12:02:16 <gammafunk> well
12:02:24 <newbie999> If morgue renamed game can't start at all
12:02:44 <gammafunk> crawl may look for a specific folder to be missing
12:02:51 <gammafunk> and only try to create dirs if that one is missing
12:03:12 <gammafunk> I don't recall what' it's folder creation logic is, but that's something that could be "intentional"
12:03:35 <dpeg> gammafunk: would be cool. I didn't merge...
12:04:05 <gammafunk> yeah, you will get conflicts, which you may have trouble resolving, let me try
12:06:24 <newbie999> I narrowed it more and removed High Elf save from /morgue and /saves - no crash after this
12:06:42 <newbie999> So it is specific to this save
12:06:50 <Pleasingfungus> oh, that is useful
12:07:00 <Pleasingfungus> what happens if you put it back into the morgue?
12:07:14 <newbie999> Prob crash again
12:07:23 <newbie999> Only morgue ? Not saves ?
12:07:26 <Pleasingfungus> it'd be useful to know if it's *both* the morgue & the save proper that's the issue
12:07:30 <Pleasingfungus> or if it's only one of them
12:07:35 <newbie999> I have 4 files
12:07:49 <Pleasingfungus> sure, the .cs that goes in saves, and the other junk in the morgue
12:08:01 <Pleasingfungus> put the other junk back, is what i'm saying. and if that crashes, try removing it and putting the .cs back
12:08:08 <Pleasingfungus> process of elimination :)
12:08:16 <Pleasingfungus> also we're probably gonna want these files, whichever ones are causing the crash
12:08:19 <newbie999> Okay, so problem seems with .cs file itself
12:08:23 <newbie999> From /saves
12:09:17 <newbie999> Can reproduce this 100% of the time
12:11:23 <newbie999> But but, it works from zip, dont forget.
12:11:26 <newbie999> :)
12:14:31 <Pleasingfungus> well
12:14:49 <Pleasingfungus> does the zip version see that save? can you load that save from the zip version?
12:14:51 <newbie999> Yeah
12:14:55 <Pleasingfungus> interesting
12:15:04 <gammafunk> newbie999: might help if you made a mantis report and uploaded the cs file there
12:15:05 <Pleasingfungus> in any case, can you upload that save somewhere? to mantis or, barring that, dropbox or something
12:15:07 <Pleasingfungus> yeah
12:15:31 <gammafunk> this one could be hard to debug even with that file
12:16:01 <gammafunk> if it doesn't crash on other windows, that is
12:16:57 <newbie999> It seems zip version dont see it, so I need to put it there to the rigth folder to test
12:17:01 <Pleasingfungus> !learn del funny_messages[11
12:17:02 <Sequell> Deleted funny messages[11/28]: Some lava, spattered with blood.
12:18:02 <newbie999> K
12:18:21 <newbie999> So, with right placement it crash on loading only this save
12:18:27 <newbie999> Zip version
12:18:30 <gammafunk> cool
12:18:31 <newbie999> But modes works
12:18:34 <newbie999> Still
12:18:37 <gammafunk> modes?
12:18:37 <newbie999> All modes work
12:18:46 <newbie999> Tutorial, etc
12:18:53 <newbie999> Without crash
12:18:58 <gammafunk> well
12:19:03 <gammafunk> those aren't loading the save, right
12:19:08 <gammafunk> so those would continue to work
12:19:17 <newbie999> But they crash on non zip version
12:19:27 <gammafunk> sure, but think of how we're testing here
12:19:30 <newbie999> From installer
12:19:32 <gammafunk> installer generates a bad save
12:19:46 <gammafunk> so we'd expect zip to crash from that save
12:19:58 <gammafunk> but not to crash from going into those modes
12:19:58 <gammafunk> since it's not loading those saves
12:19:58 <Pleasingfungus> wait, the installer is generating saves?
12:20:15 <gammafunk> I mean, he's made a save from the dcss installer version
12:20:31 <gammafunk> and when he copies this save to the zips save dir
12:20:35 <gammafunk> it crashes when trying to load it
12:20:41 <newbie999> But why modes work in zip version ?
12:21:06 <gammafunk> yeah, it's a problem somehow with the installer, this general problem, but my point was that you generated a save from installer
12:21:24 <gammafunk> you wouldn't have expected the zip version to start crashing when going into a *new game*
12:21:28 <gammafunk> if you copied over that save
12:22:00 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  but why would having the .cs file there make starting a new game crash in the installer version, while moving it aside lets it work?
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12:23:00 <|amethyst> In the installer version, with the .cs file in place, can you start a new game if you pick a different name?
12:23:08 <gammafunk> well this .cs file, how/when was it generated?
12:23:20 <Pleasingfungus> i think we really just need a copy of this save to test with ourselves
12:23:23 <Pleasingfungus> rather than trying to play relay
12:23:30 <gammafunk> tag ur it
12:23:47 <gammafunk> windows 10 is now on a black screen
12:23:55 <gammafunk> the little dots? yeah, you're moving in a circle
12:23:59 <Pleasingfungus> that's good, right?
12:24:00 <gammafunk> *they're
12:24:06 <gammafunk> dude I really hope it's good news
12:24:08 <Pleasingfungus> those are my favorite kinds of screens
12:24:14 <gammafunk> oh god, it came back
12:24:18 <gammafunk> ...only 30% complete
12:24:20 <gammafunk> kill me now
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12:24:46 <Pleasingfungus> more like
12:24:49 <Pleasingfungus> windoze
12:24:53 <gammafunk> dpeg: I'm resolving all the conflicts and will push this merge of master to oubliette when I'm done
12:24:58 <Pleasingfungus> royalties payable by cheque or money order
12:25:07 <gammafunk> windoze lyfe
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12:25:45 <gammafunk> |amethyst: I was theorizing that maybe something about nsis or other changes to the build system (e.g. on my end) changed in a way that'd effect the installer
12:26:02 <gammafunk> like the nsis package is more recent, or something
12:26:24 <gammafunk> I need to check what OS I built 0.18 under
12:26:41 <|amethyst> is there a native way to check sha or md5 on Windows?
12:26:50 <gammafunk> msys2
12:27:18 <newbie999> Yes, I can start new game in installer if I pick new name, but Tutorial still crashed with new name
12:27:18 <gammafunk> if by native you mean in a default windows install, probably not
12:27:33 <|amethyst> hmm
12:27:42 <gammafunk> newbie999: yeah, and this only happens when a specific .cs file exists in your installed versions saves dir?
12:27:46 <gammafunk> or was that not the case
12:27:56 <newbie999> Yeah, only this file matters
12:28:08 <gammafunk> newbie999: where does this .cs file come from, previous dcss version?
12:28:15 <newbie999> Yeah
12:28:19 <gammafunk> ah, ok
12:28:30 <gammafunk> so an older save is not being read properly by 0.19
12:28:42 <gammafunk> newbie999: do you happen to know which version this save came from?
12:28:44 <newbie999> Seems like it
12:28:46 <|amethyst> newbie999: as PF suggested, can you upload that file somewhere?
12:28:53 <gammafunk> yeah that would make things simpler
12:28:54 <newbie999> I think it was 0.16.1
12:29:04 <Pleasingfungus> wow
12:29:08 <Pleasingfungus> awesome
12:29:13 <gammafunk> ok, so this is definitely nothing related to installer vs zips
12:29:14 <gammafunk> which is good
12:29:36 <gammafunk> it's just that you happened to have an older save that 0.19 doesn't know how to parse
12:30:15 <gammafunk> and of course the zips wouldn't have this save, so you see no crash unless you copy over the save
12:30:15 <Pleasingfungus> newbie999: do you need help uploading the save? it's ok if you do, but i don't think we're going to get any further until then.
12:31:13 <|amethyst> oh
12:31:30 <|amethyst> hmm
12:33:11 <|amethyst> if (th.getMinorVersion() < TAG_MINOR_GLOBAL_BR_INFO && br == BRANCH_DEPTHS+1
12:33:20 <|amethyst> br = GLOBAL_BRANCH_INFO;
12:33:24 <|amethyst> I wonder if that's related
12:34:08 <newbie999> Here is the save https://ufile.io/77263
12:34:23 <Pleasingfungus> there's a standing bug related to that
12:34:27 <Pleasingfungus> the thing |amethyst mentioned
12:34:32 <Pleasingfungus> newbie999: ah, thanks!
12:34:50 <Pleasingfungus> huh, weird site
12:35:13 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  hm, if the game comes from before the addition of Depths that would break, but it would be the opposite problem from what we're seeing here
12:35:24 <Pleasingfungus> hrm, firefox flags it as "a virus or malware"
12:35:24 <Pleasingfungus> which is a little weird, for a save file
12:35:30 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  the file or the site?
12:35:37 <Pleasingfungus> file
12:35:40 <Pleasingfungus> has no issues with the site
12:35:45 <|amethyst> hmm
12:35:46 <newbie999> You want to use something to block ads and it will be fine
12:35:47 <Pleasingfungus> let's see if it infects my computer when i open it in crawl
12:35:58 * geekosaur tends to distrust those sites, because they sometimes inject badness
12:36:13 <Pleasingfungus> would be impressive if they injected anti-DCSS attacks
12:36:19 <geekosaur> although in that case I suspect they don't expect crawl save files and will probably just fail to load
12:36:25 <Pleasingfungus> let's see
12:36:29 <Pleasingfungus> i mean, that would be inconvenient
12:36:40 <Pleasingfungus> newbie999: is there any reason you're using such a shady site? instead of, like: the crawl bug tracker
12:37:03 <newbie999> No registration. :)
12:37:14 <gammafunk> but we already know your real name
12:37:19 <gammafunk> it's Newbie 999
12:37:32 <gammafunk> we can see it right in your irc nick
12:37:48 <Pleasingfungus> |amethyst: yep, ASSERT(!place_info.is_global()) in 'tags.cc' at line 3906 failed.
12:38:02 <Pleasingfungus> !crashlog 10696
12:38:03 <Sequell> No milestones for 10696 (crash).
12:38:07 <Pleasingfungus> !bug 10696
12:38:07 <Sequell> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10696
12:38:10 <Pleasingfungus> ^ this bug
12:38:11 <gammafunk> oh yeah, you guys maybe didn't see his crash that he already posted
12:38:16 <Pleasingfungus> i did not
12:38:17 <gammafunk> which had that assert
12:38:18 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I did
12:38:21 <gammafunk> oh ok
12:38:25 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  that's why I was looking at that code
12:39:38 <newbie999> So there is no chance to fix save itself somehow ?
12:39:46 <|amethyst> hm, wait
12:39:53 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  you added that in 0.20, right?
12:40:33 <Pleasingfungus> %git 9eb87fee1
12:40:33 <Cheibriados> 07amalloy02 * 0.19-a0-1835-g9eb87fe: Make a comment more explicit 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9eb87fee11b5
12:40:43 <Pleasingfungus> no
12:40:45 <|amethyst> ah
12:40:53 <|amethyst> it was associated with oubliette, not desolation
12:41:24 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  btw, when you merge oubliette, you might want to manually check the enums, because they're prone to being auto-merged backwards
12:41:44 <gammafunk> |amethyst: those generated conflics and I had to move them around properly, yeah
12:41:56 <gammafunk> with ifdef for before and after major version
12:41:59 <|amethyst> lucky you
12:42:03 <Pleasingfungus> that's better than the silent badmerge :)
12:42:10 <|amethyst> :)
12:42:16 <Pleasingfungus> elemental bugsprings
12:42:22 <gammafunk> your smiles do nothing for my happiness...
12:42:28 <gammafunk> windows at 91%
12:42:48 <Pleasingfungus> be happy! soon you will experience the joy that only Satya Nadella can bring to your life.
12:42:52 <|amethyst> I'd be unhappy too if Windows were that close to being installed on my computer
12:42:56 <gammafunk> lol
12:43:09 <gammafunk> I will push this to the branch and people can look if there's anything amiss (if they like)
12:43:30 <Pleasingfungus> https://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/titles/7a/6d/00190796.0003.png this was my avatar for years for a reason!
12:44:00 <gammafunk> I like your new one
12:44:12 <gammafunk> and I like that I never have to see brannock's ever again
12:44:17 <Pleasingfungus> wow
12:44:19 <gammafunk> I actually had my adblocker block it
12:44:21 <Brannock> blazing
12:44:24 <Pleasingfungus> i don't even remember what brannock had
12:44:28 <Brannock> clay matthews kissy face
12:44:36 <gammafunk> it's just so awful in how it catches your eye every time
12:44:40 <Brannock> haha
12:44:51 <Pleasingfungus> huh, soap only has stuff from 2009 and before
12:44:56 <Pleasingfungus> you were a scary-go-round reader?
12:45:23 <Pleasingfungus> https://fi.somethingawful.com/customtitles/title-brannock.png a fine first av, in any case
12:45:24 <Brannock> yup
12:45:42 <Brannock> yeah a couple hundred got hit by that
12:46:00 <Pleasingfungus> i thought SA was supposed to be the most troll-free forums on the net.....
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12:46:34 <Pleasingfungus> oops, we spoilered lasty :(
12:46:45 <|amethyst> every time someone mentions Something Awful, I think they're talking about Something Positive
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12:47:32 <Pleasingfungus> i read that comic as a kid
12:47:35 <Pleasingfungus> which was probably an error
12:48:49 <gammafunk> for the love of god
12:48:52 <gammafunk> windows is talking to me
12:49:17 <gammafunk> are you frickking kidding me
12:49:44 <gammafunk> "Hi...*dramatic pause*....we've updated your PC...*dramatic pause*"
12:49:50 <gammafunk> "Updating...please don't turn off your PC"
12:50:27 <Brannock> yeah I'm strongly considering switching to Linux over what they've been doing with Win10
12:50:29 <Brannock> perhaps with my next build
12:50:51 <LordSloth> Window 10. It's better than 8.1?
12:50:54 <gammafunk> "These updates help protect you in an online world."
12:51:29 <|amethyst> Brannock:  just wait, Ubuntu will have the same thing three to six years from now
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12:51:41 <LordSloth> In theory, their privacy agreement isn't much different than googles. In practice, it's what, like 40+ pages scattered all over the place.
12:51:44 <Brannock> what, automatic updates?
12:51:53 <LordSloth> Automatic reboots to update
12:52:04 <Brannock> I don't mind automatic updates, really, it's just that to get Win10 to spec I have to jump through, yeah, what LordSloth said about having it scattered all over
12:52:26 <newbie999> They actually a bit broke Win 7 and WIn 8 too with their rollback bundles instead of separate updates
12:52:32 <newbie999> Microsoft
12:52:38 <LordSloth> I really don't like the fact that I can't tell win 10 to not reboot my computer without my prompting
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12:53:06 <gammafunk> running this in a VM makes it a lot more excruciating
12:53:11 <gammafunk> I assume an actual machine would be faster
12:55:29 <newbie999> Try this (not tested by me) https://superuser.com/questions/957267/how-to-disable-automatic-reboots-in-windows-10
12:56:00 <newbie999> There seems several ways to handle that
12:58:28 <LordSloth> Yeah, but regedit is not ideal, especially with some of the updates they roll in
12:58:37 <LordSloth> Mostly: Sloth.
12:58:50 <newbie999> More expanded solutions http://tunecomp.net/disable-automatic-reboot-after-updates-installation-in-windows-10/
12:59:06 <LordSloth> Fortunately, I've got other things set up so I don't lose everything unless I regress to notepad for an idiotic reason
12:59:19 <LordSloth> I really should grab notepad++ or something like that on this machine
12:59:34 <LordSloth> Mostly just games on it atm so I won't lose much for december
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13:00:28 <newbie999> It is like a botnet already dont you think, this Win 10 ?
13:02:45 <Pleasingfungus> i prefer not to think, when at all possible
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13:04:53 <gammafunk> !source enum.h
13:04:53 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/enum.h
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13:06:32 <gammafunk> so I guess desolation entry/exit replaced existing enum values?
13:07:41 <Pleasingfungus> why would that break branch info?
13:08:22 <gammafunk> I'm not claiming it would break anything, but just to clarify why it doesn't go at the end of the enum
13:08:44 <Pleasingfungus> i sincerely forget
13:08:45 <gammafunk> I could just look at the commit, but was looking for confirmation
13:08:47 <Pleasingfungus> oh right
13:08:55 <Pleasingfungus> yeah it replaced an old unused enum
13:09:00 <Pleasingfungus> i was cannibalizing
13:09:01 <Pleasingfungus> very rude
13:09:07 <gammafunk> ok, seemed to be the case when I was resolving this conflic
13:09:10 <gammafunk> t
13:09:16 <gammafunk> so oubliette does need to go at the end
13:09:32 <Pleasingfungus> %git d70448eba
13:09:32 <Cheibriados> 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.19-a0-1237-gd70448e: New portal vault: the Desolation of Salt 10(4 months ago, 20 files, 577+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d70448eba459
13:09:34 <gammafunk> stupid check-commit script didn't even catch this unresolved conflict I added
13:09:37 <Pleasingfungus> yeah, unless you can find more good stuff
13:09:50 <Pleasingfungus> DNGN_UNUSED_ENTER_PORTAL_1 and _EXIT_PORTAL_1, respectively
13:09:55 <gammafunk> branch recyclers...
13:10:04 <gammafunk> suck up all the spare branches lying around
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13:11:15 <gammafunk> I also removed some oubliette save compat from tags.cc wrt branches since
13:11:27 <gammafunk> master had some kind of generalized code in its place
13:11:33 <gammafunk> and I could exactly recall what this save compat was necessary at the time
13:11:52 <gammafunk> it was looking at a br enum and checking for oubliette
13:12:03 <gammafunk> the save compat I removed, that is
13:12:14 <gammafunk> I'll need to go have a conversation with past me
13:13:17 <gammafunk> code in question: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/oubliette/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc#L3690
13:13:28 <gammafunk> !source tags.cc
13:13:28 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc
13:14:35 <gammafunk> conflicted with https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc#L3743
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13:22:27 <gammafunk> good thing I screwd up enum.h and get to recompile everything
13:23:39 <gammafunk> dpeg: do you keep any notes about development for oubliette?
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13:33:16 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07[oubliette] * 0.20-a0-384-g429bf01: Merge branch 'origin/master' into oubliette 10(2 minutes ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/429bf01b4841
13:33:40 <gammafunk> !tell dpeg I've merged master into oubliette, so you can do a 'git pull' and try to compile that
13:33:41 <Sequell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
13:34:00 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  hmmm... there's actually an empty place_info marshalled there
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13:34:38 <Pleasingfungus> was this a latent bug with old place marshalling code, or something introduced on conversion?
13:34:40 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  and the tag is newer than TAG_MINOR_GLOBAL_BR_INFO
13:34:44 <Pleasingfungus> hrm
13:34:47 <Pleasingfungus> sounds like latter
13:34:52 <gammafunk> !tell dpeg if you're going to work on oubliette sporadically, it might be best to just not do merges and simply work on the banch and make commits until you absolutely need to merge to get some feature or you are ready to merge or have others work on the branch
13:34:53 <Sequell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
13:35:16 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  it might have been introduced later
13:35:43 <gammafunk> !tell dpeg If we do that, you never need to 'git pull', just make your commits whenever. Every time there is a merge, someone has to go through and resolve all the conflicts, so it's good to save that until the end if you don't otherwise need latest trunk
13:35:44 <Sequell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
13:38:08 <Pleasingfungus> fun crawl trivia question: is it still possible to read ?acq over lava or deep water?
13:41:11 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  hm, it's where BRANCH_DESOLATION should be
13:41:48 <Pleasingfungus> promising
13:42:46 <gammafunk> also, with oubliette
13:42:58 <gammafunk> we've run out of alpha-num keys for branches!!!!!
13:43:03 <gammafunk> I had to use !
13:43:25 <gammafunk> or at least I decided to based on a cursory glance at the branch data
13:43:39 <|amethyst> sounds right
13:43:53 <|amethyst> was Dwarf ever actually available in trunk?
13:44:33 <gammafunk> !lm * br.enter milestone~~dwar
13:44:48 <gammafunk> oh, that's a bad query
13:44:59 <gammafunk> !lm * br.enter x=noun
13:45:08 <gammafunk> !lm * br.enter noun~~dwar
13:45:20 <gammafunk> ??test
13:45:20 <Sequell> test[1/42]: blaargh blaargh blaargh blaargh blaargh
13:45:23 <kogasa> i tested and the answer is yes
13:45:31 <kogasa> re: acquirement
13:45:33 <kogasa> also blaargh
13:45:51 <gammafunk> ??blaargh
13:45:51 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled blaargh in my learndb.
13:46:01 <gammafunk> !learn add blaargh see {test[1]}
13:46:01 <Sequell> blaargh[1/1]: see {test[1]}
13:46:04 <Sequell> 90s limit exceeded: killed !lm * br.enter milestone~~dwar
13:46:04 <gammafunk> ??blaargh
13:46:04 <Sequell> test[1/42]: blaargh blaargh blaargh blaargh blaargh
13:46:18 <Sequell> 4515634. [2016-12-26 18:44:48] [noun=Lair] Shayle the Eye of the Storm (L10 DsMo of Qazlal) entered the Lair of Beasts on turn 8954. (D:9)
13:46:19 <Sequell> No milestones for * (br.enter noun~~dwar).
13:47:13 <gammafunk> !lm * place~~dwar
13:47:14 <Sequell> No milestones for * (place~~dwar).
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13:50:57 <dpeg> gammafunk: I am back
13:50:57 <Sequell> dpeg: You have 6 messages. Use !messages to read them.
13:51:01 <dpeg> thanks
13:51:24 <gammafunk> yeah, if you have any dev notes that you keep, maybe put a thing in them about what I said in those tells
13:51:40 <gammafunk> how you don't to worry about git pull unless you want someone to do a merge for you
13:51:50 <gammafunk> since otherwise there's nothing to pull
13:51:52 <dpeg> cool
13:52:11 <dpeg> trying to populate the maps these days, to hell with balance
13:52:18 <gammafunk> and if you're going to work on it sporadically, it might be best to just save merges until you really need them
13:52:37 <dpeg> yes, I guess my branch is 100% independent of all the rest
13:52:45 <gammafunk> yeah, shouldn't depend too much on other things
13:53:14 <gammafunk> but do pull this merge I did just now
13:53:19 <gammafunk> that gets you up to current trunk
13:53:57 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  aha
13:54:00 <Pleasingfungus> |amethyst: !?
13:54:06 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  not sure what caused it yet exactly, but
13:54:19 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  it was transferred from 0.14.1 to 0.19.1 successfully
13:54:27 <Pleasingfungus> kogasa: mm, good. someone should fix that
13:54:44 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  but then when it got saved, for some reason that last branch_info was screwed up?
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13:55:20 <Pleasingfungus> hrm. the other save was 0.16... would explain why i didn't find issues testing directly across the save compat barrier, sor tof
13:55:26 <Pleasingfungus> something with very old saves
13:55:33 <Pleasingfungus> possibly an ordering issue of save compat changes?
13:56:02 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  but... it just wouldn't have been unmarshalled from the 0.14.1 save, so you.branch_info[BRANCH_DESOLATION] should have been whatever it already held from player::player()
13:56:11 <dpeg> hm, there is a tavern comment by n1000 that I could actually get behind: keep the Berserker background, but instead of the god, give the amulet of berserk rage (and some Evo).
13:56:22 <dpeg> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=22653
13:56:32 <Pleasingfungus> very old idea
13:56:32 <Brannock> I saw that last night and was vaguely in favor of it
13:56:42 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  which would have had .branch = BRANCH_DESOLATION from that for loop at the end of player::player, which hasn't changed
13:56:44 <Pleasingfungus> i remember that being suggested years ago
13:56:46 <Pleasingfungus> fwiw
13:57:40 <dpeg> he argues for it pretty well
13:57:40 <Pleasingfungus> |amethyst: not sure i follow, sorry. what do you mean, "it just wouldn't have been unmarshalled from the 0.14.1 save"? what's "it"?
13:57:49 <Brannock> !lg * recent --be !trog
13:57:51 <Sequell> 1304. dngmouse the Chopper (L4 MiBe of Okawaru), slain by a polar bear (created by the rage of Trog) on D:3 on 2016-12-26 17:58:14, with 82 points after 2272 turns and 0:12:55.
13:57:52 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  you.branch_info[BRANCH_DESOLATION]
13:58:15 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  because the marshalled count would have been 35 (or less) rather than 36
13:59:28 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  let's see if I can grab an 0.14 save to test with
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14:00:15 <Pleasingfungus> hm
14:00:22 <Pleasingfungus> i'm trying to juggle too many things right now, mentally
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14:00:26 <Pleasingfungus> need to focus
14:00:29 <Pleasingfungus> !learn add frogs https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uQPpQzxqqwa3D0z4UIQ6FzQ_ooOsGpaR4a5pfMvRaG0/edit
14:00:29 <Sequell> frogs[3/3]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uQPpQzxqqwa3D0z4UIQ6FzQ_ooOsGpaR4a5pfMvRaG0/edit
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14:04:00 <gammafunk> Brannock: lots of 15-rune Be are going to convert from Trog
14:04:15 <Brannock> !lg * recent --be !trog urune<=3
14:04:16 <Sequell> 817. dngmouse the Chopper (L4 MiBe of Okawaru), slain by a polar bear (created by the rage of Trog) on D:3 on 2016-12-26 17:58:14, with 82 points after 2272 turns and 0:12:55.
14:04:19 <gammafunk> so you'd probably want to condition on runes, or something, or just look for god.abandon at low xl
14:04:23 <|amethyst> hm, so loading a game from 0.14 into trunk, then saving and reloading, seems fine
14:04:33 <gammafunk> well, depending on what you wanted to see, I guess
14:04:39 <gammafunk> low xl abandonment is suicidal
14:04:45 <Brannock> just wanted to see how many be actually left trog
14:04:56 <Brannock> I think even with amulet instead of Trog, berserkers will generally still go trog
14:05:19 <gammafunk> hrm, well I think you'd see quite a number not going trog
14:05:20 <dpeg> Brannock: that would be fine
14:05:36 <gammafunk> since the amulet is much less conduct than the god
14:06:00 <Brannock> yeah, so they're more open to adjusting to floorgod adn changing plans because of it
14:06:06 <Brannock> and that trog altar might end up on D:7
14:06:17 <gammafunk> we do already have an "evocations" start, but I suppose that's not really a big deal
14:06:30 <gammafunk> yeah, you can't guarantee trog even on d:7
14:06:32 <gammafunk> might be d:9
14:06:53 <gammafunk> or, when we move all trog altars to the Plane of Anger, never!
14:06:59 <gammafunk> Plane of Anger is a bad place...
14:07:12 <dpeg> argh, nice make -sj8 doesn't work anymore: "collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status"
14:07:25 <gammafunk> wow, you have 8 cores?
14:07:33 <gammafunk> or cpus
14:07:37 <dpeg> I am compiling on someone else's machine
14:07:42 <gammafunk> I would do a make clean
14:07:43 <dpeg> but this command used to work
14:07:48 <dpeg> ah, good
14:07:53 <gammafunk> and then try compilation
14:08:01 <Pleasingfungus> i wonder how much evo you need to evoke "rage with any reliability
14:08:02 <gammafunk> maybe you had some stale objects
14:08:10 <gammafunk> I always just go for evo 5
14:08:21 <gammafunk> but it's usable with 0, just kind of frustrating
14:08:21 <Pleasingfungus> 5 evo gives 28% fail
14:08:26 <Pleasingfungus> 0 evo is 50% fail
14:08:35 <gammafunk> right, 50% for an ability like berserk works ok
14:08:40 <dpeg> yes
14:08:40 <Pleasingfungus> 5 evo would, of course, also be an enormous amount to give a starting background
14:08:51 <gammafunk> well just 3 would be fine I think
14:08:51 <dpeg> Pleasingfungus: not necessary imo
14:08:54 <Pleasingfungus> 36% fail at 3 evo
14:09:24 <gammafunk> yeah, so if we want to keep the Be experience smooth, that's an issue with using the amulet
14:09:26 <Pleasingfungus> bad zerkfeel :)
14:09:27 <gammafunk> it's kind of bad for newbies to have to use something with a high fail rate
14:09:29 <gammafunk> yes
14:09:34 <gammafunk> angerfeel?
14:09:40 <dpeg> pity
14:09:42 <Pleasingfungus> it makes me mad just thinking about it!!!
14:09:51 <Pleasingfungus> or is that good angerfeel...?
14:11:57 <Pleasingfungus> i feel like this background would definitely require the great Nerf of Trog that dpeg so longs for, and possibly also require some rework of "rage (which might make sense anyway? it does rather stick out among existing amulets)
14:12:04 <Pleasingfungus> (since it's clearly a Swap Item :P)
14:12:35 <|amethyst> give it a berserk bar that builds up with kills
14:12:41 <dpeg> compiling works, turns out one ally orc priest against a rust devil is interesting
14:12:57 <|amethyst> and make fail rate depend on the berserk bar rather than invo
14:13:02 <|amethyst> s/invo/evo/
14:13:07 <dpeg> re: Trog, I am happy with anything as long as those books keep burning
14:13:34 <|amethyst> dpeg:  would you be okay with burning scrolls instead?
14:14:54 <Pleasingfungus> reading scrolls doesn't train spellcasting and isn't considered magic by trog, so it feels a bit less exciting :)
14:15:14 <dpeg> indeed
14:15:18 <|amethyst> but it involves actual choices
14:15:31 <|amethyst> for players who don't plan on dropping Trog for extended
14:15:39 <gammafunk> what's the angle of what we're trying to improve
14:15:45 <gammafunk> make Be less OP?
14:15:59 <dpeg> gammafunk: yes
14:16:00 <Pleasingfungus> i really doubt you are going to get players to burn anything but junk scrolls
14:16:09 <gammafunk> or just open Be to god choices? or both?
14:16:25 <Pleasingfungus> random uselessness, noise maybe, torment maybe, ?ew when you're at max enchant... that kind of thing
14:16:26 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  I guess making different clouds based on the scroll type is a bit Stalker-y :)
14:16:26 <dpeg> seems like we agree that Be with "Rage isn't going to work (pity that), and now we talk about Trog nerfs
14:16:44 <|amethyst> the scroll thing isn't about nerfing trog
14:16:45 <Pleasingfungus> i think it would never, ever be worth burning e.g. blink, probably not even tele these days
14:16:53 <|amethyst> it's about removing books from inventory
14:16:55 <gammafunk> well, does Trog nerfs really address the concerns of giving "rage
14:16:55 <Pleasingfungus> in short, i don't think you'd get interesting choices
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14:17:12 <gammafunk> I think the whole point of that suggestion is not to be nerf, but rather to give choice
14:17:21 <gammafunk> so if we go rebalance Trog, the choice situation isn't changed
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14:17:27 <Pleasingfungus> i mean, it is a nerf
14:17:41 <dpeg> and we're only talking about book/scroll burning because I mentioned that I depend on book burning :) The proper nerfs, imo, are: piety gain, piety costs
14:18:07 <gammafunk> sure, but choice is really what we're going after with a change like that
14:18:21 <gammafunk> it wasn't clear to me that having a god that's more powerful than the rest is itself a problem
14:18:24 <dpeg> gammafunk: these are really two different issues
14:18:28 <gammafunk> since that's obviously been a longstanding thing in dcss
14:18:32 <gammafunk> since gods have existed
14:20:11 <Pleasingfungus> i mean, there's a couple things going on with god choice. taking a god is both a strategic decision - "do i take this early altar or wait for a later one? what's gonna help me win more?" - and a playstyle decision - "do i feel like running fedhas today?" the former makes less sense if some gods are way more powerful than others, but that's the reason we have altars scattered around rather...
14:20:13 <Pleasingfungus> ...than just letting the player choose a god at game start or w/e
14:20:57 <Pleasingfungus> i mean, you can imagine balancing it by shifting some gods' altars deeper than others, so you'd run into, idk, where's that god tier list...
14:21:09 <Pleasingfungus> ??drke
14:21:09 <Sequell> drke[1/4]: king of double damage
14:21:13 <gammafunk> ??tiers
14:21:13 <Sequell> drke[2/4]: Races: http://i.imgur.com/WOgxAUN.png Gods: http://i.imgur.com/tWji7gA.png (tiles) / http://pastebin.com/UxAwrsSb (text)
14:21:35 <Pleasingfungus> yeah, so you'd run into xom on d:2-4, but fedhas on d:6-9, or something
14:21:46 <Pleasingfungus> or maybe xom is a bad example, since he's so xom. idk
14:21:52 <gammafunk> yeah, but the zealots exist to remove having to make a strategic decision (for the most part)
14:22:13 <Pleasingfungus> i mean, they exist to try to provide a unique starting experience
14:22:22 <gammafunk> xom is a challenge class, but lucy is another quite strong god you can start the game with
14:22:22 <Pleasingfungus> starting with trog certainly feels different from any other start
14:22:57 <Pleasingfungus> lucy start pretty much only exists because starting abyss is Cool, I think
14:23:17 <Pleasingfungus> i don't know that starting with lucy is that different from picking her up early on otherwise, in terms of early d experience
14:24:11 <Pleasingfungus> banish doesn't come online *that* quickly, and bend space is... not worth writing home about
14:24:27 <|amethyst> and you don't start with bend space anyway
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14:24:42 <Pleasingfungus> yeah
14:24:51 <gammafunk> starting with trog feels so different mostly because you start worshiping a strong god; it'd be similar with another god that gave something at 1*.
14:25:19 <Pleasingfungus> something good, sure.
14:25:32 <Pleasingfungus> i can see a Fungus Knight being quite strong.
14:26:01 <Pleasingfungus> or an Ancestor Knight, possibly. (Ghost Knight....?)
14:26:14 <gammafunk> I think the idea of Be is sort of just "remove the complication of god choice by giving the player a strong god"
14:26:31 <gammafunk> and yeah with a god that does something impactful at 1*
14:26:41 <Pleasingfungus> ah, that kind of new-player-experience crutch? not just in that it's strong, but in that... yeah, i get that
14:26:42 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  what if it started with less than *?
14:26:47 <Pleasingfungus> hadn't thought of it from quite that angle
14:26:59 <gammafunk> sure, starting people with Hep would achieve a similar effect
14:27:09 <gammafunk> and they'd name their ancestor like
14:27:13 <gammafunk> poop
14:27:21 <gammafunk> stuff you type in the dialog screen when you don't know what to type
14:27:28 <Pleasingfungus> hep's more complex, though, especially in terms of skilling
14:27:35 <Pleasingfungus> be is pretty straightforward to skill
14:27:52 <gammafunk> hrm, I'd skill the same way for the most part
14:28:02 <Pleasingfungus> no i mean like
14:28:09 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.20-a0-352-g303077c: Rename "no device heal" to "no potion heal" 10(3 hours ago, 16 files, 64+ 67-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/303077ceedd3
14:28:09 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.20-a0-353-g53eb1ea: Let Kryia's armour affect Deep Dwarves 10(3 hours ago, 3 files, 6+ 19-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/53eb1eaa6025
14:28:09 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.20-a0-354-gee812e9: Randomise some fixed piety costs 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ee812e9e2aa6
14:28:09 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.20-a0-355-g9f02536: Adjust Enter the Abyss's MP costs 10(3 hours ago, 2 files, 2+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9f0253639851
14:28:09 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.20-a0-356-g085a5c2: Give Bend Space a fixed HP cost 10(3 hours ago, 2 files, 1+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/085a5c2bad4e
14:28:09 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.20-a0-357-ge975d06: Tweak Corrupt description 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e975d0669fd7
14:28:09 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.20-a0-358-g28afc85: Prevent Yredelemnul worship under sacrifice love 10(3 hours ago, 2 files, 6+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/28afc8585b88
14:28:09 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.20-a0-359-g0e31c27: Don't make Xom cast spells at zero tension 10(2 hours ago, 2 files, 10+ 38-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0e31c2780a8a
14:28:09 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.20-a0-360-g3c00ad3: Don't drain intelligence when Xom casts SHT 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3c00ad325564
14:28:09 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.20-a0-361-gc3bf50c: Remove CBL from Xom's random spell list 10(60 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c3bf50ce50d0
14:28:09 <Cheibriados> ... and 2 more commits
14:28:15 <gammafunk> oh, I guess you have to choose an ancestor type at some point, but that does come later
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14:28:24 <Pleasingfungus> be is weapon skills and whatever. done. hep, maybe you dip into magic....
14:28:35 <gammafunk> oh, yeah, but that comes after the player has died
14:28:39 <gammafunk> in terms of newbie experience
14:28:43 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  I don't think that's such an issue
14:28:58 <Pleasingfungus> MarvinPA: nooo, the chaos cost!
14:29:05 <Pleasingfungus> think of the roleplaying those abilities did
14:29:18 <gammafunk> but sure there's some complexity there, however I don't think that's a big deal should there be some kind of generalized/changed zealot newbie start (which I'm not sure we're even moving towards anyhow)
14:29:22 <gammafunk> also
14:29:26 <gammafunk> did anyone check the forecast?
14:29:30 <Pleasingfungus> haha
14:29:33 <gammafunk> I didn't hear about a chance of commit storm
14:29:51 <Pleasingfungus> anyway, this clearly means that be is the Autopilot Chess or whatever that reddit guy was talking about
14:30:01 <dpeg> Pleasingfungus: I suggested AK and like it to this day because it allows for a player to check out the Abyss after having that died there (I know that AK starting Abyss is not Abyss:1)
14:30:09 <MarvinPA> none of those are very exciting, i didn't actually realise i had quite so many at once :P
14:30:26 <gammafunk> yeah but what did you sneak into those two hidden commits...
14:30:28 <|amethyst> it's not?
14:30:38 <Pleasingfungus> MarvinPA: good bugfix in b62f0a4447174e! or maybe the hp cost on miscasts was intended, but it shouldn't have been
14:30:40 <MarvinPA> we may never know...
14:31:02 <MarvinPA> ah, i thought it was intended but just thought it'd make more sense the other way
14:31:03 <Pleasingfungus> dpeg: I also like AK! I'm not arguing for removal. Starting abyss is cool!
14:31:09 <|amethyst> ah, it is different somewhat still
14:31:23 <Pleasingfungus> i'm just saying, if *not* for starting abyss, it wouldn't really make sense as a background
14:32:14 <gammafunk> start Be at the Throne of Trog
14:32:21 <gammafunk> with an epic intro text
14:32:44 <dpeg> Pleasingfungus: absolutely
14:32:49 <geekosaur> spelled out in monsters?
14:32:50 <dpeg> gammafunk: <3
14:33:00 <gammafunk> good thinking, geekosaur
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14:33:15 <geekosaur> fight your way into the dungeon to prove your worthiness
14:33:23 <Pleasingfungus> wow, this is some real consolethink right here
14:33:35 <dpeg> Pleasingfungus: is there any other?
14:33:43 <|amethyst> start Slime Knight in Slime
14:33:49 * geekosaur started with original rogue. you'll pry my console out of my cold, dead hands
14:33:59 <|amethyst> you even get a rune
14:34:06 <|amethyst> and all the loot from Slime:6
14:34:08 <gammafunk> sounds cool
14:34:09 <|amethyst> s/6/$/
14:34:16 <geekosaur> (also, crawl before dcss existed, much less tiles)
14:34:30 <gammafunk> did you get a win in original crawl
14:34:41 <|amethyst> but then you have to fight your way back up starting from the bottom of Lair
14:34:52 <geekosaur> nope
14:34:57 <dpeg> I did!
14:35:06 <|amethyst> anyway, the tiles solution is obvious
14:35:11 <dpeg> some Hill Dwarf, the poor slobs
14:35:14 <|amethyst> make more monsters like orb guardians
14:35:16 <geekosaur> but then I don't get to play games seriously very often so I end up looking like a slightly better zermako
14:35:18 <Pleasingfungus> haha
14:35:37 <gammafunk> I like it
14:35:49 <gammafunk> Dungeon Crawl: Alphabet Stone Soup
14:36:08 <gammafunk> dpeg: did Hill Dwarves make it to dcss?
14:36:17 <geekosaur> (although I have rarely had the chance to actually concentrate on games, had one die at d:23 because I had to stop and by the time I got back to it the game had changed too much, another died on the orb run)
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14:36:33 <geekosaur> they did
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14:37:50 <|amethyst> A is for bishops with triangle caps / B is butt beetles, who kill you with crap
14:39:30 <dpeg> gammafunk: yes. They wre the first species to leave DCSS.
14:39:56 <gammafunk> wow, rip grimli
14:40:01 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  btw, since you did the last batch of style edits, what do you think about changing all (or most) of the future tense in the descriptions to present
14:41:00 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  e.g. "The wearer of this garment {has,gains} significantly increased healing from potions."
14:41:07 <MarvinPA> ah, yeah
14:41:16 <MarvinPA> i think i tried to use present tense in spells/abilities
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14:41:48 <|amethyst> I can work on that I guess
14:42:40 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  and we're eliminating "you" as well, right?
14:42:56 <MarvinPA> i've tried to as much as possible, i think there are some spots where it's hard to avoid
14:43:10 <Brannock> probably a "change as you go" thing
14:43:19 <Brannock> do we have a style manual somewhere? aside from coding convention styles
14:43:29 <|amethyst> Brannock:  easier to do as a batch though
14:43:41 <MarvinPA> not currently, i've been meaning to write something up so at least the stuff that i've aimed for in the past batch of changes is better documented somewhere
14:43:44 <Brannock> a few months ago I was thinking about trying to codify dungeon vs. Dungeon
14:43:48 <|amethyst> that would be awesome
14:48:50 <amalloy> that reminds me, it'd be ncie to regularize filenames. anyone mind if i rename files like potion_use.cc to potion-use.cc? i'm not sure what to do with some filenames though - god-passive seems better than godpassive, but there are a lot of files like chardump.cc and initfile.cc that seem okay as one word or two
14:52:36 <|amethyst> make sure you get all the places they're mentioned
14:52:46 <|amethyst> I can think of at least three
14:52:54 <|amethyst> BTW, we should document that too
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14:54:20 <|amethyst> Makefile.obj, MSVC/crawl.vcxproj, android-project/jni/src/Android.mk
14:54:24 <amalloy> my plan is to find the mentions by just running sed over every file in the source tree to replace old with new
14:54:29 <amalloy> which, yes, turns up those
14:54:50 <|amethyst> amalloy:  that's a problem actually
14:55:03 <amalloy> why?
14:55:04 <|amethyst> amalloy: oh, not if you keep the .cc and .h
14:55:16 <amalloy> yes, of course
14:55:20 <amalloy> well
14:55:27 <|amethyst> amalloy:  unless map_knowledge has a badly-named member or something :)
14:55:48 <amalloy> i say "of course", but i was also worrying there may be places that mention "potion_use" but then append the .cc manually somehow
14:56:03 <|amethyst> amalloy:  Makefile.obj has .o
14:56:06 <amalloy> yeah
14:57:32 <|amethyst> I think if you look for .cc, .h, and .o that should get everything
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15:01:39 <Pleasingfungus> i was considering doing that myself, but then i realized it'd be work...
15:01:45 <Pleasingfungus> that is to say, i support it :)
15:06:01 <amalloy> it should be really easy, except computers are dumb and i'm dumb so my script seems to be doing nothing much. debugging bash+perl will be fun, i'm sure
15:07:49 <amalloy> is there something obviously wrong with this? it modifies no files: $ find . -type f -print0 | xargs -0 perl -pi -e "s/potion_use\.cc/potion-use.cc/g;"
15:09:27 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-363-gb62f0a4 (34)
15:10:10 <Pleasingfungus> haha
15:10:22 <amalloy> i guess maybe just nothing refers to potion_use.cc. but i tried it with .h too
15:10:25 <Pleasingfungus> apparently if you worship a holy god in pan, shadow creatures gives... good results
15:10:36 <Pleasingfungus> (so to speak)
15:10:42 <Pleasingfungus> a good god, i should say
15:11:17 <amalloy> man i'm dumb
15:11:30 <amalloy> there is no potion_use.{h,cc}
15:11:41 <Pleasingfungus> that'd do it
15:11:51 <amalloy> rip
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15:13:16 <amalloy> yeah works fine for item_use. good unit test
15:17:01 <amalloy> anyone have opinions on which files with neither a - nor a _ should have a - added to them? my current plan is to leave those alone, so that we'll at least be standardized on which punctuation to use, if not on whether to use it
15:18:39 <MarvinPA> the godfoo ones might be better with a -
15:19:20 <MarvinPA> and dgnevent stands out in that the other dgn files do have a - already
15:20:10 <MarvinPA> and i guess if item_use becomes item-use, it seems like itemname should also be item-name etc
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15:23:36 <amalloy> MarvinPA: itemprop too i imagine?
15:23:46 <amalloy> itemprop-enum is a bit weird
15:23:56 <MarvinPA> hmm yeah, dunno
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15:27:06 <gammafunk> item-prop-enum ?
15:27:29 <gammafunk> guess you could standardize on hyphenating words
15:28:56 <|amethyst> is tilebuf one word or two?
15:29:09 <|amethyst> (hopefully pathfind is one)
15:31:03 <|amethyst> also, why is it "directn.cc" anyway?
15:31:04 <amalloy> well, i'm gonna do the obvious good ones MarvinPA suggested, and then paste the script i used so you guys can squabble over the questionable ones yourselves
15:31:59 <|amethyst> hm, does anybody else have an executable decks.cc?
15:33:56 <amalloy> yes
15:33:58 <|amethyst> %git 7b7966442ff
15:33:58 <Cheibriados> 07johnstein02 * 0.18-a0-817-g7b79664: Sometimes upgrade plain decks for Nem worshipers 10(1 year ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7b7966442ff2
15:34:55 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-364-gf2875f6: Make decks.cc not executable. 10(40 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f2875f62b20a
15:35:00 <gammafunk> ??book of the warp
15:35:00 <Sequell> book of the warp[1/1]: Recall, Gell's Gravitas, Force Lance, Warp Weapon (0.18-), Summon Forest.
15:35:29 <gammafunk> !learn edit book_of_the_warp s/ \([^,]+,//
15:35:29 <Sequell> book of the warp[1/1]: Recall, Gell's Gravitas, Force Lance, Warp Weapon Summon Forest.
15:35:33 <gammafunk> oops
15:35:57 <gammafunk> !learn edit book_of_the_warp s/ Summon/, Summon/
15:35:58 <Sequell> book of the warp[1/1]: Recall, Gell's Gravitas, Force Lance, Warp Weapon, Summon Forest.
15:39:29 <amalloy> IMO missed a chance to commit that as "execute deck.cc's execute permissions"
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15:47:11 <amalloy> i accidentally messed up my contribs folder while doing all this; how do i get git to replace everything in those submodules with upstream's version?
15:49:13 <amalloy> it's easy without submodules, but everything submoduley is just weird to me
15:51:12 <MarvinPA> i think "git submodule update --init" would do it?
15:51:31 <MarvinPA> (and it has to be from the top level directory)
15:52:50 <Cheibriados> 03amalloy02 07* 0.20-a0-365-gf8a1998: Rename files like foo_bar to foo-bar 10(31 minutes ago, 231 files, 27395+ 27904-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f8a199806633
15:52:50 <Cheibriados> 03amalloy02 07* 0.20-a0-366-g03f3333: Add hyphens to some multiwordfilenames 10(21 minutes ago, 185 files, 20296+ 20296-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/03f33331b103
15:53:30 <amalloy> if anyone wants to rename some more, i was doing stuff like: for f in *_*.{cc,h,o}; do new=$(echo -n $f | perl -p -e 's/_/-/g;'); mv $f $new; find . -type f -print0 | xargs -0 perl -pi -e "s/\\Q$f\\E/$new/g;"; done
15:54:38 <amalloy> that works best if you run it after running make, so that the right .o files exist
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15:59:51 <Brannock> amalloy, it looks like you nuked several files in contrib in gf8a1998?
16:00:03 <amalloy> man, really?
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16:00:10 <amalloy> git status didn't seem to show that
16:00:22 <Brannock> maybe I'm reading web interface wrong
16:00:24 <amalloy> god i hate submodules
16:00:54 <amalloy> can someone who knows what the deal is with submodules fix my problem?
16:01:37 <gammafunk> I'll take a look
16:02:59 <gammafunk> woah
16:03:15 <Brannock> one look is all he needed
16:03:26 <gammafunk> hrm
16:03:30 <gammafunk> you did things to line endings
16:03:37 <gammafunk> in the vcxproj files
16:03:38 <gammafunk> amalloy:
16:03:48 <gammafunk> namely you added ^M
16:03:59 <Brannock> is this the same problem I had a few months ago?
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16:04:15 <amalloy> i doubt i would have added windows newlines from my mac without realizing
16:04:20 <johnstein> |amethyst: any particular reason you called up that commit? looks like somehow I changed the perms. hmmmm. that was weird
16:04:26 <gammafunk> amalloy: I see it in git show
16:04:28 <gammafunk> in the diff
16:04:49 <gammafunk> not sure if it causes a problem or not, but it shows up in terminal in the diff
16:05:11 <amalloy> hm, indeed
16:06:37 <gammafunk> wow, contrib dir seems to be nuked?
16:08:24 <gammafunk> yeah you seemed to have removed everything from contribs
16:09:16 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-366-g03f3333 (34)
16:12:00 <amalloy> yes, that is why i would love for someone to just like, replace contrib with what used to be there? submodules make me sad, and all the knowledge i have about how to fix stuff in git stops working whenever a submodule is involved
16:14:52 <Brannock> when was contrib changed?
16:15:34 <amalloy> f8a1998, as you said
16:18:48 <Cheibriados> 03amalloy02 07* 0.20-a0-367-g454506b: Replace contrib, I hope? 10(17 seconds ago, 25 files, 509+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/454506b8859e
16:19:21 <Brannock> oh, I misread what you said
16:19:34 <Brannock> I thought you were referring to a past change to contrib that added submodules
16:19:44 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  hm?  I don't see a problem with crawl.vcxproj?  The new lines have CRs, but that whole file does
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16:20:10 <gammafunk> |amethyst: his changes show changed line endings
16:20:30 <gammafunk> namely the removed added lines had different line endings from the ones removed
16:20:37 <gammafunk> according to git when I used show
16:20:40 <gammafunk> on the commit
16:20:53 <gammafunk> the only other change to these lines was the files renamed
16:21:48 <gammafunk> I didn't look into it further, so I'm not sure if it's some weird aspect of looking at the diff using git show or what
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16:22:21 <Pleasingfungus> er
16:22:36 <Pleasingfungus> gammafunk: i think you misread the book_of_the_warp learndby entry....
16:22:51 <gammafunk> ??book of the warp
16:22:52 <Sequell> book of the warp[1/1]: Recall, Gell's Gravitas, Force Lance, Warp Weapon, Summon Forest.
16:22:58 <Pleasingfungus> 15:35:00 <Sequell> book of the warp[1/1]: Recall, Gell's Gravitas, Force Lance, Warp Weapon (0.18-), Summon Forest.
16:23:02 <Pleasingfungus> not 0.18+
16:23:19 <gammafunk> yeah, rather I just removed 0.18-
16:23:24 <gammafunk> should have removed warped weapon also
16:23:29 <Pleasingfungus> :)
16:23:35 <gammafunk> I blame.....
16:23:37 <gammafunk> ....you
16:23:38 <|amethyst> 0.18- is a terrible notation
16:23:41 <gammafunk> just because
16:23:43 <gammafunk> yeah it is
16:23:49 <gammafunk> laziness ueber alles
16:24:10 <gammafunk> !learn edit book_of_the_Warp s/, Warp Weapon//
16:24:11 <Sequell> book of the warp[1/1]: Recall, Gell's Gravitas, Force Lance, Summon Forest.
16:24:17 <gammafunk> ??warp weapon
16:24:18 <Sequell> warp weapon[1/1]: This level 5 Charms/Translocation spell applies a temporary distortion brand to a wielded weapon. Removed in 0.19.
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16:28:49 <travis-ci> The build was broken. (master - 03f3333 #7449 : Alan Malloy): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/186840445
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16:30:07 <amalloy> dang, there were a lot of added and removed lines in those commits. i practically wrote all of crawl by myself
16:30:11 <gammafunk> yes
16:30:22 <gammafunk> I was about to make a claim that this was a conspiracy
16:31:03 <gammafunk> |amethyst: what I saw in a show of amalloy's first commit: http://dpaste.com/3GY0YNX
16:31:15 <gammafunk> in part, at least
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16:32:22 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  hm, do you have that option that strips crs locally?
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16:33:27 <|amethyst> oh I see it now
16:33:40 <|amethyst> game-options.cc is the one that's messed up
16:34:04 <|amethyst> and that was untouched
16:35:10 <|amethyst> %git e495c4fe7
16:35:10 <Cheibriados> 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.19-a0-1470-ge495c4f: Add game-options file 10(4 months ago, 5 files, 22+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e495c4fe7dc6
16:35:27 <Pleasingfungus> my beautiful bouncing baby
16:36:11 <|amethyst> but I suspect it was reporting the error for gf and not for me because of git crlf conversion stuff
16:36:27 <gammafunk> wow, no article there?
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16:39:19 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-368-g4aedf34: Fix missing CRs in Visual Studio project. 10(13 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4aedf3445bbe
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16:41:45 <newbie999> Guys, what can I tweak to remove mouse lag on Windows ?
16:42:02 <Pleasingfungus> a fine question
16:42:40 <newbie999> It is a bit annoying, it won't allow to pick item quick
16:43:25 <Pleasingfungus> gamma was trying to look into that, iirc, but i'm not sure he got anywhere?
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16:51:27 <gammafunk> I did get somewhere actually
16:51:36 <gammafunk> but I need to finish debugging that
16:51:51 <gammafunk> newbie999: when you say mouse lag, how do you mean precisely?
16:52:02 <gammafunk> is there a delay before the reticule updates to the square?
16:52:09 <gammafunk> if so, then yeah that's a known issue
16:52:26 <newbie999> Well, it is constant maouse delays.
16:53:03 <newbie999> I can't just hover over item and pick it. It can stop or it can became move slow
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16:54:52 <newbie999> It doesn't follow mouse speed, sensitivity if you just move mouse fast right-left for example - it lags with delays
16:55:32 <gammafunk> !lm MarvinPA x=src
16:55:33 <Sequell> 28728. [2016-12-24 21:09:19] [src=cue] MarvinPA the Magician (L7 MuEE) killed Blork the orc on turn 4037. (D:4)
16:55:43 <gammafunk> I was surprised, not on cdo!
16:55:55 <gammafunk> when I used &rc
16:56:19 <gammafunk> killing blork on christmas day, harsh...
16:56:37 <Pleasingfungus> i'm nearly sure he's not santa
16:56:41 <Pleasingfungus> also, is the 24th Christmas Day?
16:56:59 <geekosaur> technically yes
16:57:15 <geekosaur> (sundown to sundown)
16:57:19 <amalloy> every day is christmas day, in the right timezone
16:57:31 <gammafunk> christmas eve on 23rd, christmas day on the 24th, right?
16:58:20 <gammafunk> oh, really I'm a day off
16:58:38 <gammafunk> but still, killing blork on christmas eve!
16:58:45 <MarvinPA> gammafunk: cdo and cxc would be my servers of choice but they're filled by zigrunners!
16:58:46 <gammafunk> before he got his presents!!!!!
16:58:50 <gammafunk> hah
16:58:55 <gammafunk> on cdo? really.
16:59:02 <gammafunk> oh right.
16:59:07 <gammafunk> *your* zigrunner
16:59:24 <Pleasingfungus> geekosaur: huh, surprised they follow jewish rules
16:59:25 <gammafunk> yeah you wouldn't care about ghosts of players running zigs
16:59:35 <Pleasingfungus> i guess it makes a kind of sense
16:59:36 <MarvinPA> also i only lost that cue mummy because it was brutally nerfed by wand removal or something
16:59:44 <Pleasingfungus> wow, rip
16:59:52 <gammafunk> MarvinPA: *and* the recent caster nerfs
17:00:01 <MarvinPA> exactly!
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17:00:06 <Pleasingfungus> what's our next caster nerf gonna be
17:00:09 <MarvinPA> whatever those were, i'm sure there was something though
17:00:21 <geekosaur> yes, and deliberately. also applies to Easter/Pascha iirc, but not to other Christian holy days
17:00:26 <Pleasingfungus> if we remove be, that's kind of a caster nerf, since... more bad players will pick caster backgrounds, thus driving down their winrate.
17:01:12 <Pleasingfungus> in conclusion, ruined.
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17:03:44 <MarvinPA> mm, yet another person misled by cantip message spotted: https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/5kecq7/returning_player_with_a_few_misc_questions/
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17:04:23 <MarvinPA> i think i left those alone in past cantrip changes because they're cute, but it is probably worse than the old regular cantrip messages really
17:08:22 <|amethyst> You feel almost sluggish.
17:09:19 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-368-g4aedf34 (34)
17:09:24 <gammafunk> |amethyst: hrm, that player reports trying to load a 0.11-a trunk game from cao and it doesn't have it
17:09:47 <gammafunk> !lm mroovka cao nagl x=cv
17:09:48 <Sequell> 13. [2012-04-24 20:11:37] [cv=0.11-a] mroovka the Fencer (L13 NaGl of Trog) reached level 8 of the Lair of Beasts on turn 20858. (Lair:8)
17:10:30 <gammafunk> !lm mroovka cao nagl x=cv,file
17:10:31 <Sequell> 13. [2012-04-24 20:11:37] [cv=0.11-a;file=cao/milestones-git] mroovka the Fencer (L13 NaGl of Trog) reached level 8 of the Lair of Beasts on turn 20858. (Lair:8)
17:10:48 <gammafunk> wonder if it's still around, I can't recall CAO losing any saves
17:11:02 <gammafunk> !lm mroovka cao nagl x=cv,file x=gid
17:11:03 <Sequell> 13. [2012-04-24 20:11:37] [game_key=mroovka:cao:20120319005058S;cv=0.11-a;file=cao/milestones-git] mroovka the Fencer (L13 NaGl of Trog) reached level 8 of the Lair of Beasts on turn 20858. (Lair:8)
17:11:20 <gammafunk> !lg * gid=mroovka:cao:20120319005058S
17:11:21 <Sequell> No games for * (gid=mroovka:cao:20120319005058S).
17:11:53 <gammafunk> they did save on a now-removed level, but I think the save compat handles that
17:12:06 <geekosaur> did they try to load it during the disk space incident?
17:13:00 <gammafunk> he says he's not played since 5 years
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17:14:01 <gammafunk> !lm mroovka cao x=cv
17:14:02 <Sequell> 981. [2012-04-24 20:11:37] [cv=0.11-a] mroovka the Fencer (L13 NaGl of Trog) reached level 8 of the Lair of Beasts on turn 20858. (Lair:8)
17:14:11 <SteelNeuron> What purpose does the upper limit of wands serve?
17:14:27 <SteelNeuron> Is there any mechanic that really needs to be expressed in a "fill to max" manner?
17:14:51 <SteelNeuron> I feel that if they were unlimited and picking up wands would just dump the charges on your current one, inventory management would be really simplified
17:15:28 <gammafunk> yeah, wand stacking is a thing that's been talked about, as is the issue of recharge existing
17:15:34 <gammafunk> with upcoming rod removal and none of the big wands, it's a lot less interesting
17:15:58 <SteelNeuron> upcoming rod removal? I've missed that one
17:16:03 <gammafunk> s/none of the big wands/removal of wands of hw+tele+haste/
17:16:18 <SteelNeuron> hmm
17:16:21 <gammafunk> some commits are in the works
17:16:44 <gammafunk> some rods to become wands, one becoming an evocable, others getting removed
17:16:51 <SteelNeuron> I see
17:17:06 <SteelNeuron> regardless of the power level of wands, the inventory management issue still exists though
17:17:11 <SteelNeuron> I think wands are the worst offenders
17:18:06 <SteelNeuron> I'm also glad to see rods go, I don't like having to swap weapons
17:18:18 <SteelNeuron> in fact, one of my pipe dreams is for all launchers to work like throwing :)
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17:18:55 <LordSloth> !message dpeg I was trying to get more ogre feedback for you, but then I took gong off an orc priest on D:7.
17:18:55 <Sequell> SHROANNG!
17:18:56 <Sequell> You probably meant !tell, or possibly !messages.
17:19:04 <LordSloth> !tell dpeg I was trying to get more ogre feedback for you, but then I took gong off an orc priest on D:7.
17:19:04 <Sequell> BOUMMMMG!
17:19:04 <Sequell> LordSloth: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
17:23:59 <gammafunk> launchers working more like throwing is something Lasty had in mind for the mythical and legendary Ranged Reform
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17:33:52 <SteelNeuron> anywhere I can read about that gammafunk?
17:35:48 <Brannock> I was going to work on something that would let ?recharge work on misc as well
17:35:51 <Lasty> SteelNeuron: check CRD
17:36:04 <Brannock> then the holidays happened
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17:46:48 <newbie999> Do you need close crawl every time before edit init.txt ?
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17:47:51 <geekosaur> for it to notice? yes
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17:51:16 <newbie999> So I have fps showing application and notice very weird fps drops up till something like 6 FPS, that's why mouse seems lag
17:54:30 <gammafunk> that's just telling you that the application isn't redrawing
17:54:38 <gammafunk> which we know
17:54:51 <gammafunk> did you see my question about how the lag manifests?
17:55:33 <newbie999> But there is tile_update_rate option
17:55:49 <newbie999> I'm trying ty see if it is make difference
17:57:08 <gammafunk> there's a specific issue with redraws and mouse events, so I'm asking because of that
17:57:42 <gammafunk> yes there is that option, but it has a reasonable default, so unless you're experiencing some other kind of issue, changing the option wouldn't fix the underlying problem
17:58:48 <gammafunk> if you see a mouse delay such that sometimes when moving the mouse onto a different tile, the mouse reticule + info has a delay before it updates, that's the problem I'm referring to
17:58:57 <newbie999> Are there any driver tweak that can help here or it is should be fixed in crawl itself only ?
17:59:07 <gammafunk> it's a bug with crawl's sdl code, this issue
17:59:34 <gammafunk> but again there could be some other kind of error you're seeing
17:59:49 <gammafunk> since again I'm not sure about the nature of this lag you have
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18:00:30 <newbie999> It looks like mouse lab with low fps I see FPS drops till 1 fps even, I dont see constant fps here
18:00:35 <newbie999> *lag
18:02:16 <gammafunk> if it's lag like I describe above, it's this longstanding redraw issue we have for mouse events
18:02:37 <gammafunk> I've been working on it recently, so hopefully we get that fixed
18:05:17 <newbie999> What is the bug number for this ?
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18:08:49 <gammafunk> hrm, odd how vim tag lookup doesn't go to the declaration of the class
18:09:03 <gammafunk> takes me to the instantiator thingy
18:09:23 <gammafunk> there are a few bug reports, but one is 10278
18:09:53 <gammafunk> it doesn't have any helpful info or anything, it's a bug since 0.16
18:10:49 <gammafunk> need to figure that one out
18:10:56 <gammafunk> I swear vim took me to class defs before
18:12:06 <gammafunk> guess I need to use :tselect
18:12:14 <johnny0> gammafunk: the bisect in 10278 isn't helpful?
18:12:32 <gammafunk> johnny0: well I made that commit in question
18:12:36 <gammafunk> so no, not really :)
18:12:45 <johnny0> oh, ouch
18:12:49 <gammafunk> that was me muddling through the sdl loop to fix window resizing
18:12:53 <gammafunk> and it was a big change
18:13:02 <gammafunk> but I'm getting closer to fixing it
18:13:24 <gammafunk> no surprise, but our sdl drawing code is not great
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18:16:03 <newbie999> Which version had this 9e6f58dcabc7f47398c9806e4c80f93efbd0d4d2 commit ? I want to test version prior to that
18:16:07 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.20-a0-368-g4aedf34 (34)
18:17:02 <gammafunk> 0.16
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18:17:15 <gammafunk> look up the commit
18:17:15 <gammafunk> %git 9e6f58dcabc7f47398c9806e4c80f93efbd0d4d2
18:17:15 <Cheibriados> 07gammafunk02 * 0.16-a0-2585-g9e6f58d: Fix resizing of the Tiles window 10(2 years, 1 month ago, 2 files, 9+ 33-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9e6f58dcabc7
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18:17:22 <newbie999> So I need which version ?
18:17:31 <gammafunk> you want the commit or not the commit?
18:17:37 <gammafunk> if you don't want the commit, 0.15
18:17:38 <newbie999> Not hte commit
18:17:42 <newbie999> kk
18:18:07 <newbie999> Well, there seems no windows version for that
18:19:21 <gammafunk> try http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/crawl_setup-0.15-a0-2391-gd4b779a.exe
18:19:34 <newbie999> I want zip, is there any ?
18:19:51 <gammafunk> yeah, from here: http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/archive.html
18:20:02 <gammafunk> Windows Build
18:20:14 <gammafunk> for Trunk Tiles
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18:24:01 <newbie999> Wow
18:24:18 <newbie999> 0.15.1 version is skyrocket, 300 fps!!!
18:24:26 <newbie999> Almost stable
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18:26:56 <gammafunk> looking at fps is not going to make a lot of sense
18:27:09 <newbie999> Right, the lag noticed in 0.16.1
18:27:13 <gammafunk> right
18:27:21 <gammafunk> so the issue I described above
18:27:23 <newbie999> In 0.15.1 it is amazing permance
18:27:33 <gammafunk> you don't need an fps reader to see this
18:27:36 <gammafunk> just notice that the lag happens when transitioning
18:27:39 <gammafunk> between one tile to the next
18:27:57 <gammafunk> only happens sometimes (happens more if you've been playing longer)
18:28:31 <gammafunk> or possibly if there are a lot of items around
18:28:42 <gammafunk> anyhow I'll be getting to that one soon
18:28:55 <gammafunk> it doesn't get as much reporting since a large number of tiles users are keyboard only
18:29:03 <newbie999> That would be great, pretty nasty issue to play with
18:29:13 <newbie999> Ah
18:29:41 <LordSloth> Gong is kinda bad when fighting hydras, for interface reasons
18:29:41 <Sequell> PTOANNNG!
18:30:01 <gammafunk> gong generates a lot of messages
18:30:01 <Sequell> PTOANNNG!
18:30:04 <gammafunk> also on irc
18:30:16 <newbie999> gong
18:30:16 <Sequell> SHROANNG!
18:30:21 <newbie999> :>
18:30:24 <gammafunk> no one say gong again
18:30:24 <Sequell> GONNNNG!
18:30:26 <gammafunk> instant ban
18:30:51 <gammafunk> not just from irc, also from all servers and the rest of the internet
18:31:48 <gammafunk> would have to add a gong rule
18:31:49 <Sequell> BOUMMMMG!
18:32:23 <geekosaur> quick someone ban gf
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18:46:00 <Pleasingfungus> how have things been going while i was gong?
18:46:01 <Sequell> GONNNNG!
18:46:04 <gammafunk> !
18:46:10 <Pleasingfungus> oh, oops, typo
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18:54:04 <gammafunk> yeah, well, we're banning CanOfWorms anyhow
18:54:27 <gammafunk> if someone senior/important screws up, we have to sacrifice one of the new devs
18:55:09 <CanOfWorms> !!!
18:55:32 <CanOfWorms> didn't realize you messed up so badly gammafunk
18:55:32 <gammafunk> I'm sorry, my dear friend
18:55:46 <gammafunk> we will truly miss those bagpipe song requests
18:56:15 <gammafunk> I screwed up so bad, I broke tiles for years, but I am going to fix it!
18:56:21 <gammafunk> meanwhile, I have a kind of question
18:56:38 <gammafunk> unique_ptr<trap_spec> trap;    /**> A pointer to a trap_spec. */
18:56:46 <gammafunk> from feature_spec class
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18:57:07 <gammafunk> namely why this needs to be a pointer/unique_pointer
18:57:16 <gammafunk> I'm still grokking this code
18:58:56 <Pleasingfungus> thou shalt not grok
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18:59:33 <gammafunk> apparently not, man this code
18:59:44 <Pleasingfungus> anyway, i strongly suspect that trap_spec has no reason to exist
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19:00:07 <Pleasingfungus> like, the struct itself seems totally superfluous
19:00:23 <gammafunk> hrm
19:00:30 <gammafunk> unique_ptr<trap_spec> trap;    /**> A pointer to a trap_spec. */
19:00:34 <gammafunk> er
19:00:40 <gammafunk> feature_spec fspec(known ? 1 : -1, weight);
19:00:40 <gammafunk> fspec.trap.reset(new trap_spec(static_cast<trap_type>(trap)));
19:00:40 <gammafunk> return fspec;
19:01:05 <gammafunk> it's taking a trap type as an int, making a trap_spec, initializing the unique_ptr to that created thing
19:01:12 <gammafunk> then returns the containing feature_spec
19:01:34 <gammafunk> what I want to add to feature_spec is....hrm I guess another feature_spec
19:01:41 <gammafunk> I suppose a pointer to one
19:01:48 <gammafunk> ug, I need to think about this
19:02:30 <gammafunk> yeah the struct may indeed not need to exist, but I guess I was going for using traps/shops as an example
19:02:41 <gammafunk> what I have is essentially another keyed mapspec
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19:02:57 <gammafunk> I will create a keyed mapspec through kfeat as normally
19:03:37 <gammafunk> but with type teleporter and having a value that is another keyed mapspec (in des terms, a glyph after all substs/nsubsts/shuffles etc are processed)
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19:04:16 <gammafunk> so I believe this means I simply need to have this keyed_mapspec create another keyed mapspec
19:04:41 <gammafunk> I'm just thinking out loud, so everyone feel free to ignore me
19:04:57 <Pleasingfungus> Done.
19:05:04 <gammafunk> just don't want to get into a circular loop type thing
19:05:23 <gammafunk> perhaps this will need a new teleporter subtype
19:05:34 <amalloy> /ignore gammafunk
19:05:38 <gammafunk> teleporter_spec, which refers to a parent?
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19:31:43 <hellmonk> thanks for starting a shitstorm while I was gone guys
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19:33:22 <gammafunk> Kryia's affecting DD hit you pretty hard too?
19:33:37 <gammafunk> crawl will never be the same, 0.19 will be the definitive version
19:33:42 <hellmonk> fucking lol if you don't think dd are removed in next hellcrawl patch
19:33:50 <gammafunk> 90% of our player base gone down the tubes
19:33:59 <gammafunk> remove DD? mistake
19:34:14 <gammafunk> don't you want to keep the big wands
19:34:32 <gammafunk> a meme fork without meme dwarves is sad
19:34:52 <gammafunk> just power up their self heal, if you have to
19:37:27 <hellmonk> tbh you should power down their self heal
19:37:33 <hellmonk> so that they're not absurdly op
19:37:38 <Pleasingfungus> but
19:37:41 <Pleasingfungus> then they wouldn't be meme dwarves
19:37:46 <gammafunk> so hellcrawl is removing Tr and Sp?
19:37:49 <gammafunk> those are absurdly op
19:37:57 <hellmonk> dd is a level further beyond
19:38:06 <gammafunk> when you're in the meme zone
19:38:07 <hellmonk> but i agree that tr and sp should be nerferinod
19:38:15 <gammafunk> does it matter if you go further to the ultra meme zone?
19:38:40 <gammafunk> how will hellcrawl nerf tr and sp
19:38:46 <hellmonk> Tr is meme, Sp is super meme, DD is super meme 4
19:39:01 <Pleasingfungus> i can only understand this in the form of an image macro
19:39:13 <Pleasingfungus> or anime screencap
19:39:17 <gammafunk> wow, the sequels went straight to video?
19:39:24 <gammafunk> then they released super meme 4
19:39:29 <gammafunk> that's just a weird strategy
19:40:05 <gammafunk> the one that removeelyvilon made was good
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19:41:41 <CanOfWorms> gammafunk: tr and sp will be merged
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19:41:58 <gammafunk> fast move, claws 3
19:41:59 <CanOfWorms> which is basically just a normal speed sp with bad apts
19:42:19 <hellmonk> lol
19:42:26 <Pleasingfungus> features:
19:42:49 <Pleasingfungus> - race constantly screams. "what spiteful god gave me life? why won't you let me die?"
19:43:10 <hellmonk> can you guys make an abomination race that has shoutitis 3 and deformed body
19:43:17 <gammafunk> PF is working on that
19:43:20 <Pleasingfungus> - hungers at normal pace; can't eat meat or vegetables
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19:43:20 <hellmonk> I don't care about the rest, just throwing that out there
19:43:25 <hellmonk> >hunger
19:43:37 <Pleasingfungus> tfw
19:43:39 <gammafunk> you need to read Lasty's CRD post
19:43:42 <hellmonk> gonna haf 2 stop u rite there fam
19:43:43 <gammafunk> BIG plans
19:43:54 <Pleasingfungus> i worry that his plans might be
19:43:57 <Pleasingfungus> DOOMED before they started!
19:44:01 <gammafunk> hellmonk: actually do read it and maybe respond to it, he'd appreciate it
19:44:09 <hellmonk> where is this post
19:44:10 <Pleasingfungus> someone glasses me. come on. come on
19:44:12 <gammafunk> ??crd
19:44:12 <Sequell> c-r-d[1/2]: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crawl-ref-discuss
19:44:27 <gammafunk> $glasses
19:44:30 <gammafunk> dang rip Kramell
19:45:48 <gammafunk> handled it
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19:46:55 <Shard1697> a species that had temp badmuts and randomly gained new ones every now and then so they were cycling through might be neat, in a goofy way
19:47:06 <Shard1697> starcursed mountain dwarf
19:47:33 <CanOfWorms> shard1697: that's circusanimal kobolds
19:47:37 <CanOfWorms> permanent evolution
19:48:36 <hellmonk> I was thinking about making hellcrawl kobolds the low stat high apt species that occasionally gets requested, not sure if worth tho
19:49:23 <CanOfWorms> what the heck happened to all the experimentals on cbro???
19:49:34 <CanOfWorms> on there we go
19:49:59 <CanOfWorms> interesting lobby bug
19:49:59 <hellmonk> re the lasty post: it seems like it has potential to be better than the current system but it looks like 1) a ton of work and 2) very easy to end up in a nonfunctional/bad spot if the implementation isn't good
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19:50:32 <gammafunk> well yeah, at a high level that's all true, but it's a given that people will have to do a lot of work
19:50:47 <hellmonk> I think it's worth trying out for sure
19:51:53 <Lasty> hellmonk: yep
19:51:58 <Lasty> agreed on every point
19:52:13 <gammafunk> he'd probably need more specifics, but nbd. if you see anything in particular to point out
19:52:13 <gammafunk> even if this doesn't happen next release we might get some good spitballing or dare I say it metaspitballing or yes I'll even go there metametaspitballing out of it
19:52:16 <Lasty> Which is why I want help/input from others
19:52:30 <gammafunk> !lm . desolation
19:52:32 <Sequell> 1. [2016-12-26 00:10:58] gammafunk the Devastator (L20 GrIE of Hepliaklqana) entered the Desolation of Salt on turn 59075. (Vaults:3)
19:52:40 <CanOfWorms> still haven't ascended that gr yet?
19:52:43 <gammafunk> did this, was a lil scurry
19:52:45 <gammafunk> it's on U:4
19:52:51 <CanOfWorms> ah
19:53:00 <gammafunk> didn't want to ascend last night since I was a bit tired
19:53:14 <CanOfWorms> what are the choices for the next combo
19:53:25 <CanOfWorms> same as before minus grie?
19:53:37 <gammafunk> currently listed as HuTm | KoEE | NaAK | HaWr | DDAr
19:53:41 <gammafunk> could add one more maybe
19:54:04 <gammafunk> !winssinceracewon
19:54:08 <gammafunk> !winssinceclasswon
19:54:43 <gammafunk> several of those have recent changes, only HuTm and NaAK don't
19:54:45 <Sequell> Gh: 33, Gr: 31, DD: 30, Fe: 28, Vp: 27, Ha: 25, Mf: 20, Dg: 19, Fo: 18, Mu: 17, Te: 16, Ko: 14, Sp: 13, Ce: 12, VS: 11, DE: 10, Ds: 8, Hu: 7, HO: 6, Op: 5, Na: 4, Tr: 2, Dr: 1, Og: 0
19:54:47 <Sequell> Sk: 32, AK: 26, AM: 25, Wr: 22, AE: 21, EE: 19, VM: 18, IE: 17, FE: 16, Tm: 15, Mo: 14, Hu: 13, Ar: 12, Cj: 11, En: 10, Fi: 8, Ne: 7, Wz: 6, Su: 5, Wn: 4, Gl: 2, CK: 1, As: 0
19:55:07 <gammafunk> heh, could do GhAM
19:55:07 <gammafunk> !apt gh
19:55:07 <Sequell> Gh: Fighting: 1, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -1, Maces: -1, Polearms: -1, Staves: -1, Slings: -1, Bows: -1, Xbows: -1, Throw: -1, Armour: -1, Dodge: -1, Stealth: 2, Shields: -1, UC: 1!, Splcast: -2, Conj: -2, Hexes: -2, Charms: -1, Summ: -1, Nec: 0, Tloc: -1, Tmut: -1, Fire: -2, Ice: 1, Air: -2, Earth: 1, Poison: 0, Inv: 1, Evo: -1, Exp: 0, HP: 1, MP: -1*
19:55:39 <gammafunk> doesn't seem incredible though!
19:55:43 <gammafunk> I need an am oneandwon
19:55:48 <gammafunk> otherwise I would not do it
19:56:03 <gammafunk> but AE or VM would be good
19:56:08 <gammafunk> !greateroneandwon
19:56:19 <gammafunk> I think I need both of those
19:56:38 <Sequell> non-oneandwon roles for gammafunk: Berserker, Wanderer, Wizard, Transmuter, Fire Elementalist, Assassin, Abyssal Knight, Ice Elementalist, Earth Elementalist, Skald, Venom Mage, Air Elementalist, Arcane Marksman
19:57:59 <CanOfWorms> what about tram
19:58:18 <gammafunk> I just won tr
19:58:21 <gammafunk> 2 games ago
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19:58:28 <CanOfWorms> mfam?
19:58:32 <gammafunk> and don't need a oneandwon for it
19:58:39 <gammafunk> yeah that works
19:58:40 <gammafunk> !apt mf
19:58:41 <Sequell> Mf: Fighting: 1, Short: 2, Long: 1, Axes: -2, Maces: -2, Polearms: 4!, Staves: -2, Slings: -2, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: 0, Armour: -3*, Dodge: 3, Stealth: 2, Shields: 0, UC: 1!, Splcast: -1, Conj: -2, Hexes: 0, Charms: 1, Summ: 0, Nec: -2, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 3!, Fire: -3*, Ice: 1, Air: -2, Earth: -2, Poison: 1, Inv: 1, Evo: 0, Exp: 0, HP: 0, MP: 0
19:58:50 <gammafunk> mfam of throwing
19:58:58 <gammafunk> oh hexes 0
19:59:01 <gammafunk> it's like
19:59:06 <CanOfWorms> 0 is good though?
19:59:07 <gammafunk> I'm glad we removed high elves!
19:59:12 <gammafunk> yes, that's what I'm sayig
19:59:15 <CanOfWorms> ah
19:59:23 <gammafunk> MfAM sounds good fam
19:59:32 <CanOfWorms> yeah high elves are a weird mishmash of te and mf
19:59:37 <CanOfWorms> part bird, part fish...
19:59:38 <CanOfWorms> all elf
19:59:49 <Pleasingfungus> fr: melf, the magic elf
19:59:50 <Sequell> Pleasingfungus: You have 10 messages. Use !messages to read them.
19:59:52 <gammafunk> oh
19:59:53 <Pleasingfungus> what the fuck
19:59:55 <gammafunk> it seems your glasses
19:59:56 <Pleasingfungus> is this your fault
19:59:56 <CanOfWorms> nice
19:59:57 <gammafunk> have arrived
20:00:00 <Pleasingfungus> god damn it.
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20:00:03 <Pleasingfungus> gammafunked again...
20:00:25 <minmay> all elves are magic
20:00:39 <Pleasingfungus> what about the legendary Antimagic Elves
20:00:41 <gammafunk> melf is dangerously close to milf
20:00:53 <hellmonk> how can elves be real if our videogames aren't real
20:01:00 <gammafunk> which is Minotaur Loafer
20:09:18 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20:10:21 <minmay> the +2 Minotaur Loafers {Int-5 Slay+5 Stlth--}
20:11:40 <ProzacElf> hey, i knew a guy who went by melf on irc for years
20:11:53 <ProzacElf> although to be fair that was before the term milf got quite as popularized
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21:41:06 <Brannock> ??frogs[3
21:41:07 <Sequell> frogs[3/3]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uQPpQzxqqwa3D0z4UIQ6FzQ_ooOsGpaR4a5pfMvRaG0/edit
21:42:16 <Brannock> !makewords Or
21:42:25 <Sequell> OrAE OrAK OrAM OrAr OrAs OrBe OrCK OrCj OrEE OrEn OrFE OrFi OrGl OrHu OrIE OrMo OrNe OrSk OrSu OrTm OrVM OrWn OrWr OrWz
21:43:38 <Pleasingfungus> OrZ
21:43:50 <Pleasingfungus> crawl needs more *happy campers*
21:44:00 <Brannock> other potential names: Leporids, Leporidans, maybe Lagomorphs?
21:44:11 <Brannock> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pika We should add these.
21:44:12 <Pleasingfungus> lagomorph is too obviously cute
21:44:13 <Pleasingfungus> imo
21:44:32 <Pleasingfungus> i considered lepor*, but it sounds like leopards
21:44:33 <Pleasingfungus> which is weird
21:45:05 <Brannock> Jackalopes
21:45:08 <hellmonk> call them rabbits so i can spell RaCK
21:45:46 <Brannock> Oh shit there's volcano rabbits.
21:46:31 <Pleasingfungus> !
21:46:39 <Brannock> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcano_rabbit
21:46:59 <hellmonk> ok I change my vote to  zacatuche
21:47:30 <Pleasingfungus> i feel like i'm fondest of the lore for frogs in terms of 'cool factor', rabbits have the fewest weird mechanical side effects from their lore, and abysstouched are kind of in between. downside for them is you end up with Abysstouched Abyssal Knights, which is way too much abyss for one name
21:47:33 <Pleasingfungus> but that's minor
21:47:37 <Pleasingfungus> it all is really :)
21:48:04 <Pleasingfungus> zacatuche... i like the z, but the middle syllables i'm not so hype about.
21:48:09 <hellmonk> rabbitaur
21:48:14 <gammafunk> damnation rabbits
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21:49:15 <Brannock> wouldn't "lepor*" be closer to 'leper', not leopard?
21:49:20 <Brannock> I am deaf and don't know how these words actually sound
21:49:55 <Brannock> And it *is* minor, but people apparently attach a lot to a species's name so it's probably worth taking consideration over it
21:50:06 <Pleasingfungus> leporid, leopard
21:50:08 <Pleasingfungus> say em out loud
21:50:13 <Brannock> ah I see
21:50:16 <Pleasingfungus> oh fuck
21:50:22 <Pleasingfungus> right, sorry, brain on
21:50:36 <Brannock> well yeah I can see how they can slur to sound similar
21:50:41 <Pleasingfungus> but yeah, th.
21:50:43 <Pleasingfungus> damnit cat
21:50:46 <geekosaur> but I'd pronounce "leporid" with more of a schwa
21:50:49 <CanOfWorms> jumping spiders - NOT HAPPENING
21:51:06 <hellmonk> spidermen would be a good specie name too
21:51:07 <geekosaur> bah. it's just the reworking of the imp race :p
21:51:11 <Brannock> imporids
21:52:22 <hellmonk> volcano rabbits are endangered :(
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21:52:58 <Brannock> too many players doing Volcano
21:53:35 <Brannock> Zacaporid. Zacamorphs
21:53:35 <Pleasingfungus> geekosaur: they're not literally the same sound but they're close enough to mess at least me up
21:53:51 <Pleasingfungus> Zakarids, Zacarids, Zacarians
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21:54:24 <Brannock> ZaCK
21:55:12 <Brannock> Zakarid has promise
21:55:26 <Brannock> Pleasingfungus, this is your opportunity to create new fantasy tropes!!
21:56:19 <kogasa> kangaroo
21:57:01 <minmay> question
21:57:11 <minmay> why is sandblast still called sandblast when it can no longer create blasts of sand
21:58:02 <Pleasingfungus> someone brought that up earlier
21:58:06 <Pleasingfungus> obviously, retheme the new projectile to sand
21:58:15 <Pleasingfungus> you reduce the rock to sand!
21:58:23 <Pleasingfungus> alternately, rename the spell. rockblast? idk.....
21:58:59 <Pleasingfungus> Brannock: they call me the Tropem@ster.
21:59:08 <geekosaur> ever seen actual sandblasting? arguably the no-stone version should have been "dustblast"
21:59:11 <Pleasingfungus> kogasa: i suggested it! they told me it was Too Silly :(
21:59:25 <kogasa> :(
21:59:33 <Pleasingfungus> No Fun Allowed
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22:01:05 <Brannock> would "shrapnel" sound too intimidating for a level 1 spell
22:01:31 -!- ddubois has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:01:56 <Pleasingfungus> it'd RUIN my brilliant Shrapnel Blast spell (which is never making it into the game)
22:02:19 <|amethyst> skalds should get a high level Earth/Charms spell where you sing a song that animates stones and large rocks in LOS to throw themselves at monsters
22:02:22 <Pleasingfungus> i think it'd be ok but i don't think it's better than sandblast
22:02:25 <|amethyst> it can be called Rock Opera
22:02:30 <Brannock> I thought sandblast was fine, imo
22:02:38 <Pleasingfungus> so do i! just need to change the zap name
22:02:44 <Pleasingfungus> if you haven't already
22:02:55 <geekosaur> we already have shrapnel blast, it's called LRDing the nearest wall :p
22:03:06 <|amethyst> Gell's Graveltoss
22:03:14 <Brannock> ZAP_SANDBLAST?
22:03:18 <Brannock> or do you mean the bolt description
22:03:27 <Pleasingfungus> latter
22:03:30 <Pleasingfungus> lemme actually look
22:03:33 <Pleasingfungus> !source zap-data.h
22:03:34 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/zap-data.h
22:03:37 <Brannock> "rocky blast"
22:03:40 <Pleasingfungus> yeah
22:03:44 <Pleasingfungus> should be the old name for the basic blast
22:04:13 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus:  see also tilepick.cc
22:04:22 <Pleasingfungus> ah, very good point!
22:04:28 <Pleasingfungus> though minmay wouldn't care about that :)
22:07:05 <Pleasingfungus> "blast of sand" and the corresponding change in tilepick.cc, yeah
22:07:14 <Pleasingfungus> i could do it myself, but i'd have to recompile ;_;
22:07:26 <Cheibriados> 03Brannock02 07* 0.20-a0-369-g71b9d6e: Sandblast blasts sand 10(32 seconds ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/71b9d6e38eb9
22:07:32 <Pleasingfungus> since i'm currently in frog land
22:07:34 <Pleasingfungus> contemplating turning the hop into a 2-level mut
22:07:43 <Brannock> hop, skip, jump?
22:07:46 <Pleasingfungus> haha
22:07:55 <Pleasingfungus> just shorter range until xl 13 or something
22:08:17 <gammafunk> You feel springier?
22:09:07 <Pleasingfungus> definitely
22:09:11 <Brannock> Sproing!
22:11:22 <Pleasingfungus> i guess i could also make the jump make noise
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22:11:35 <Pleasingfungus> maybe just like 4 noise or something. idk
22:12:03 <gammafunk> probably makes sense for it to have noise regardless
22:12:32 <gammafunk> although I guess a stealthy leap is also fine really
22:15:32 <Brannock> well, do we want them to be able to jumpstab?
22:16:13 <Pleasingfungus> i don't think jumbstabbing is very practical regardless
22:16:17 <Pleasingfungus> given radius 2 fuzz
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22:20:38 <gammafunk> Brannock: jumpstab is bad to give as an innate thing
22:20:57 <Brannock> so give it just enough noise that it'll wake up stuff in a room
22:21:01 <gammafunk> felid jump attack used to do this, it breaks stealth
22:21:05 <Brannock> I don't think it's good to have it make more noise than that
22:21:08 <Brannock> ah, okay
22:21:51 <gammafunk> and yeah it has a lot of fuzzing
22:22:01 <gammafunk> but just to be clear, despite that fuzz it is NOT a rabbit!
22:22:16 <gammafunk> can't stress that enough
22:23:15 <hellmonk> im gonna steal the implementation but make it a rabbit, come at me
22:23:40 <gammafunk> I can convince johnstein to unhost the branch, I'm sure I can think of a bribe
22:23:54 <hellmonk> ree
22:24:09 <Brannock> imo put it directly into trunk
22:25:20 <Pleasingfungus> hellmonk is NOT allowed to add things.
22:25:42 <Pleasingfungus> remove! remove!!!
22:25:43 <hellmonk> incorrect, I'm not allowed to add things unless it would be funny
22:25:51 <Pleasingfungus> but... that's my rule...!?
22:26:12 <Brannock> frogbit
22:26:14 <hellmonk> idk, I feel kind of weird about becoming tavern memes personified
22:26:41 <hellmonk> the next hellcrawl update is removing 4 species and 2 backgrounds, energy randomization, and whatever else I get to in the next week
22:26:52 <gammafunk> which species
22:26:57 <gammafunk> and backgrounds
22:27:02 <hellmonk> dd, ce, fe, he, am, vm
22:27:16 <gammafunk> I will miss dd speedruns
22:27:23 <gammafunk> s/will/would/
22:27:42 <hellmonk> nobody speedruns my fork so it doesnt matter
22:27:44 <CanOfWorms> why would you remove fire elementalist, hellmonk
22:27:53 <hellmonk> I mean cat not fireman
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22:28:08 <CanOfWorms> I know I'm just trolling
22:28:55 <hellmonk> tbh I understand the reluctance to remove all of that stuff in regular big boy crawl but I genuinely hate felids and arcane marksmen, and deep dorf and centaur are pretty blatantly op
22:29:03 <hellmonk> and vm removal is a prelude to poison magic removal
22:29:13 <CanOfWorms> I think  AM would be fine if you moved confuse from En to it :v
22:30:23 <Pleasingfungus> imo the problem is that they're unfun
22:30:30 <Pleasingfungus> op is sort of to the side
22:30:55 <Brannock> I like felid because they're a great boundary line for "too weird". any new species must be less weird than felid
22:31:16 <Brannock> and they show that Crawl is robust enough to handle truly different conducts/abilities
22:31:51 <hellmonk> fun is kind of subjective, but fwiw I agree that centaur is unfun and dd is unfun unless you're explicitly trying to go fast
22:31:57 <geekosaur> only up to a point (ohai djinn)
22:32:01 <Brannock> also I'm one of a vanishingly tiny group of people who've won FeFi
22:33:03 <hellmonk> but I do think that there needs to be some sort of restriction on how strong a species/background/god is allowed to be, and dd and centaur exceed that (imo)
22:33:18 <gammafunk> Fe is kind of cool in how it stretches the design boundaries some
22:33:19 <gammafunk> Fe mages are reasonably fun
22:33:27 <gammafunk> but I still don't look forward to playing them too much
22:33:49 <gammafunk> Fe transmuters are also not too bad
22:34:17 <Brannock> way back in the day Stabwound showed us how strong Centaurs are by winning like three or four Centaur Healers consecutively, before streaks were a regular thing
22:34:29 <Brannock> I'm surprised that they haven't really been nerfed in the subsequent decade
22:34:41 <Brannock> I don't think there's really a pressing *need* to nerf them though
22:34:50 <gammafunk> watching a DD speedrun cool since they give the most stable experience
22:34:56 <hellmonk> tbh I don't think you can nerf centaur without taking away their ~design space~ or making them even less fun to play
22:35:30 <Brannock> maybe ranged reform will make more people play them
22:35:31 <Brannock> !apt ce
22:35:32 <Sequell> Ce: Fighting: 0, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -1, Maces: -1, Polearms: -1, Staves: -1, Slings: 1, Bows: 3!, Xbows: 1, Throw: 1!, Armour: -3*, Dodge: -3*, Stealth: -4, Shields: -3*, UC: 0, Splcast: -3, Conj: -1, Hexes: -1, Charms: -1, Summ: -1, Nec: -1, Tloc: -1, Tmut: -1, Fire: -1, Ice: -1, Air: -1, Earth: -1, Poison: -2, Inv: 1, Evo: -1, Exp: -1, HP: 1, MP: 0
22:35:52 <Pleasingfungus> hellmonk: i think i mostly agree with you, i'm just tired of removing things
22:35:54 <Pleasingfungus> too many memes....
22:35:56 <gammafunk> fe have the same problem, but if you're using ranged attacks, you're using magic with them, and magic is more interesting than launchers/throwing (to most people)
22:36:16 <gammafunk> oh, that's what I wanted to tell Pleasingfungus earlier
22:36:22 <Brannock> yeah it's about time to start adding stuff
22:36:32 <gammafunk> I learned that hints mode allows only three characters, one of which is CeHu
22:36:33 <hellmonk> yeah, one of the advantages of doing a dumb meme fork is that I don't have to listen to people complain about how I'm ruining crawl FOREVER by cutting their favorite species
22:36:34 <Pleasingfungus> we can split it. gamma & mpa can remove, you and i can add
22:36:41 <Pleasingfungus> gammafunk: yes, i had a whole argument about this a few months ago
22:36:45 <gammafunk> haha
22:36:49 <Pleasingfungus> i tried to persuade people to replace with cehu with... idk what
22:36:51 <gammafunk> yeah that's what it made me think of!
22:36:55 <Pleasingfungus> but someone thought they were fun???
22:36:57 <gammafunk> you replaced it in the tutorial
22:37:00 <Pleasingfungus> or a Basic Crawl Playstyle
22:37:02 <Pleasingfungus> or something
22:37:15 <gammafunk> they were a suggested combo
22:37:29 <gammafunk> but I guess you really do want to have hints show you how to use each playstyle thing
22:37:38 <gammafunk> so mibe/defe/cehu makes more sense there
22:37:53 <gammafunk> rather than just a recommend, although I guess you'd want people to go from tutorial to hints mode?
22:38:03 <gammafunk> I never actually used hints mode to learn, just went through tutorial, myself
22:38:03 <Pleasingfungus> i think i was arguing for spen instead
22:38:13 <hellmonk> anyway I gotta go to the grocery store before it closes, good luck with your new species design pf
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22:38:34 <gammafunk> part of the argument was about deep elves, but yeah spen is certainly a fine choice
22:39:03 <Pleasingfungus> obviously suggest tecj instead :) or dg... hrm
22:39:09 <Brannock> DgWn
22:39:13 <Pleasingfungus> !!
22:39:19 <gammafunk> I suggested GrCj
22:39:27 <Pleasingfungus> reasonable
22:39:36 <gammafunk> but no DECj is not insane or anything, makes sense
22:39:45 <gammafunk> what I should do is make new players study ??tiers
22:39:51 <gammafunk> just so they know what they're getting into
22:40:02 <gammafunk> pop up that image at the end of tutorial
22:40:09 <Pleasingfungus> lol
22:40:14 <Pleasingfungus> what if they're in console, gamma. what then
22:40:18 <gammafunk> oh shit
22:40:19 <geekosaur> tiers for fears >.>
22:40:31 <Pleasingfungus> just kidding. there aren't any 'new players' in console
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22:42:37 <gammafunk> Cheibrodos: the mp from +2 spellcasting is insane
22:42:38 <gammafunk> Cheibrodos: Is this what playing a real race feels like?
22:42:42 <gammafunk> re newmu
22:42:54 <Brannock> unlimited power... we've gone too far.
22:42:55 <gammafunk> !greatrace cheibrodos mu
22:42:59 <Sequell> Unwon mummys for cheibrodos: MuAE, MuEE
22:43:10 <gammafunk> most done before wand removals + newmu
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22:48:28 <Brannock> !source grd
22:48:29 <Sequell> Can't find grd.
22:48:48 <Pleasingfungus> it's a macro or something somewhere. externs.h?
22:48:49 <Brannock> oh, ground?
22:48:59 <Pleasingfungus> defines.h:#define grd    env.grid
22:49:00 <gammafunk> grid
22:49:18 <Pleasingfungus> that's "git grep grd *.h", if you want to know my amazing search method
22:49:32 <Brannock> noted
22:49:46 <Brannock> why is abyss.cc open I don't remember opening this file. am I being corrupted
22:50:17 <Pleasingfungus> matter fused -8
22:50:24 <Pleasingfungus> ^ COGMIND JOKE
22:50:40 <Brannock> I should try that game
22:50:52 <Pleasingfungus> correct.
22:51:00 <|amethyst> amalloy_:  hm, you made item-prop-enum.h but left itemprop.*
22:51:56 <|amethyst> amalloy_: I think those two should be consistent, though no strong preference on which way to go
22:52:10 <Pleasingfungus> all these changes... i'll be lost!
22:56:20 <Brannock> is there a way to check if a target is standing in water? I'd been doing grd(defender->pos()) but it occurred there's probably a simpler way
22:56:45 <gammafunk> well that's what you'd check, but there are methods to help
22:57:19 <gammafunk> feat_is_watery() is one
22:57:25 <gammafunk> feat_is_water()
22:57:38 <gammafunk> needs the grd lookup, let me see
22:57:47 <Pleasingfungus> Brannock: do you care if they're flying? or swimming?
22:58:17 <gammafunk> yeah, and do you care about deep vs shallow
22:58:50 <Brannock> no, just if they're above water, though I suppose this would interact strangely with flight
22:59:03 <Brannock> might have to decide later how to handle that
22:59:06 <gammafunk> player has a in_water() method
22:59:09 <gammafunk> wonder if monster has that
22:59:20 <gammafunk> but that's not what you want in this case
22:59:36 <Pleasingfungus> feat_is_watery(grd(foo.pos()) sounds right, posisbly
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23:00:31 <gammafunk> !source feat_is_water
23:00:32 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/terrain.cc#L445
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23:00:56 <gammafunk> watery adds fountains to shallow/deep/open see
23:01:06 <gammafunk> s/see/sea/
23:01:32 <johnstein> gammafunk: bribes.berotato.org   we accept all forms of payments
23:01:40 <gammafunk> wow
23:01:48 <Brannock> do you accept scrip?
23:02:12 <gammafunk> Zot Points?
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23:09:21 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-369-g71b9d6e (34)
23:11:39 <johnstein> zot points are also accepted in my upcoming fork with gozag's new "Bribe Admin" ability. it's the only way to get HW/H/T wands
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23:30:11 <Brannock> wow, this compiled on my first try. now I know it's buggy
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23:33:15 <gammafunk> throw it out!
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