00:00:15 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:01:47 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:04:13 -!- PepeRC2 has quit [Quit: rebuttal] 00:04:14 -!- BOTBrad has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:06:16 -!- stubblyhead_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:19 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 00:07:49 -!- MgDark has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 38.0.5/20150525141253]] 00:08:21 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 38.0.5/20150525141253]] 00:12:21 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:12:24 Lasty_: still awake? 00:17:42 -!- Smello has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:18:28 Lasty_: PbD design tweak: mutation level effects number of stacks on kill. stacks degrade much faster (max 1/turn, approximately reached at X stacks). there is a minimum duration of Y turns applied on-kill but the actual duration is implied by stack decay to 0. Regen rate per stack unchanged. Interested in hearing what you think X & Y should be 00:18:58 Lasty_: fwiw I'm thinking 3 & 4-6. And interested in hearing if you think this is a good approach at all 00:21:49 03|amethyst02 07* 0.17-a0-1394-gde347b4: Don't use map_find on a set. 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/de347b4c9031 00:22:45 <|amethyst> !learn del githubpoke 00:22:45 Deleted githubpoke[1/1]: http://tozt.net:9876/crawl 00:23:00 <|amethyst> !learn edit cheipoke[1] s/gitorious/github/ 00:23:01 cheipoke[1/2]: probably unnecessary now: a github webhook does this automatically 00:24:24 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 00:24:25 -!- Senjaii has quit [] 00:24:46 degrading the stacks ultra-fast is going to make the number pretty meaningless to the player 00:25:05 it's not really clear what all the player is supposed to do with the information even right now 00:25:18 before it was a way of knowing if you'd gotten the max regen you could, I guess 00:25:36 since it was based on where you were relative to corpses 00:26:40 you might get better results by not delaying so fast but just reducing regen per level 00:26:55 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.17-a0-1393-gcb420ff (34) 00:28:05 the problem with decaing slower is that you end up with this long tail after a fight ends 00:28:17 which is why current design has separate str & duration 00:28:47 my goal is a) change design to remove need to explicit duration b) reduce strength 00:29:11 <|amethyst> but Y is an explicit duration 00:29:12 but yeah, showing exact strength is probably bad now. maybe +/++/+++ at most 00:29:29 yes, that's an ugly part of my proposal 00:29:49 I don't want someone to activate pbd with 1 strength and then lose it the next turn by a random bad-luck roll 00:31:33 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:35:48 <|amethyst> so this would give it a minimum duration, and also allow undecayed stacks to keep it alive even if that duration expires? 00:38:55 <|amethyst> I would consider keeping the current mechanic but just decreasing the duration (currently up to 23 turns) and, as gammafunk said, the regen per level 00:40:26 right 00:41:14 the current mechanic works, I just think it's bad that you can have high strength and the duration expires, suddenly shutting off your regen. It would be more intuitive if your rr bonus decreased to zero 00:42:20 a graceful arc, rather than the unaesthetic horror of an interrupted curve 00:42:40 <|amethyst> but you implied you didn't want a long tail after a fight 00:43:26 <|amethyst> hm 00:44:00 yes, the new design decays to 0 str. the current design decays slowly to 1 but may instantly cut off before that 00:46:55 -!- argent0 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:52:33 I guess in a lot of ways pbd is like berserk. Maybe attacking should extend the duration 00:53:16 <|amethyst> ? 00:53:22 <|amethyst> killing you mean? 00:53:39 <|amethyst> doesn't it currently? 00:54:10 no, attacking as well 00:54:50 <|amethyst> so as long as I remember to stop and swing every (other, third, tenth, whatever) turn as I'm travelling, I can keep it up forever? 00:55:08 that is exactly how you can keep berserk up forever 00:55:08 <|amethyst> at 1 power I guess 00:55:13 <|amethyst> huh? 00:55:25 <|amethyst> ??berserk 00:55:25 berserk[1/10]: Grants {might}, {haste} and 50% extra HP. lasts 100-195 auts, as long as you're attacking monsters. This duration increases on kills if wearing the {necklace of bloodlust} or worshipping {Trog}. 00:55:33 <|amethyst> oh 00:55:50 sorry, I thought you were being snarky 00:56:29 <|amethyst> but that's not quite how berserk works 00:56:37 <|amethyst> you can't keep it up forever by attacking 00:56:59 <|amethyst> rather, it has a duration, and *not* attacking decrements the duration more than usual 00:57:05 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 00:57:08 <|amethyst> the duration still decrements every turn 00:58:05 I think, effectively, that means you can describe berserk as "lasts longer if you attack things" 00:58:22 -!- panicbit has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:58:28 <|amethyst> but that is not the same as "attacking extends the duration" 00:58:43 sorry, in my mind they were close enough for now 00:59:14 that general approach is one that might suit pbd. You want to cut down the potential for using pbd to heal outside combat, which is boring, but healing in combat is fun 01:00:10 so the initial step is to reduce pbd duration to much shorter than currently, like 2-4 turns. But it's annoying if you get halfway through killing an enemy and the buff expires 01:00:26 -!- jokela has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 01:00:41 making the buff "go away slower when you're hitting things than when you're not hitting them" could reduce that risk 01:03:03 <|amethyst> maybe instead of regen you want HP-on-kills? 01:03:27 <|amethyst> hm 01:03:28 well, then you've reimplemented mahkleb 01:03:48 i take your point though, pbd *is* similar to makh healing 01:07:10 -!- Twinge has quit [] 01:09:44 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:10:15 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.17-a0-1394-gde347b4 (34) 01:10:46 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:15 -!- y2s82 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:15:20 -!- AlphaQ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:16:01 -!- tgcid has joined ##crawl-dev 01:17:16 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 01:17:58 -!- Gorgo_ has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:20:15 so, idea: change tt to "wave your torch around" or something, which alerts all monsters in LOS, but nothing outside it 01:20:53 1. leads to less stone throwing, 2. shouting is bad for waking things up out of LOS anyway 01:24:37 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:32:18 -!- Idolo has quit [] 01:34:42 -!- Andygal has quit [] 01:42:24 -!- stubblyhead_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:47:10 seems kind of bad since you'd still want to wake things up with old style tt in some instances 01:47:17 and then you can just make allies to yell at them 01:48:23 -!- stubblyhead_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:49:05 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 01:49:15 <|amethyst> could make ta shout whether there are allies or not 01:49:45 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:49:55 yeah, although that's also a bit awkward 01:50:14 hrm, I guess you could label it depending on whether allies were in los 01:50:47 <|amethyst> or use a new letter for one or the other 01:52:33 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:34 The build was fixed. 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ZZZzzz…] 03:39:00 -!- Molotove1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:47:09 -!- yuyuflow has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:49:36 -!- Yllodra has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:56:35 -!- Frelus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:11:15 -!- vale has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:12:23 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 04:29:16 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:34 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:31:42 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:36 -!- GauHelldragon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:41:05 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:44:57 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:45:22 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:59:06 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:05:06 -!- rophy has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:07:45 -!- _159 has quit [Client Quit] 05:13:36 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 05:17:05 -!- vale has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:17:06 -!- siepu has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:29:10 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:36:46 -!- Yuyuflow has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:44:39 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:59:19 -!- __miek has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:05:18 -!- Smello has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:15:23 -!- Suga_H has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:16:12 -!- Monkaria has quit [Client Quit] 06:27:15 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:37:42 -!- Dixlet has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:38:49 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 06:47:55 -!- copt has quit [] 06:52:55 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55:17 -!- ktgrey has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:13:02 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:13:06 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:17:03 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:25:43 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:26:01 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Client Quit] 07:26:51 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 07:26:53 -!- tgcid has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:27:22 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:28:37 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:32:04 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:34:50 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Client Quit] 07:37:23 -!- argent0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:38:24 -!- aarujn has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:38:55 -!- gressup has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:41:15 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 07:45:25 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:48:36 -!- cojito has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:51:48 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:52:33 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 07:54:10 -!- Rogan has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:55:42 -!- Gurmil has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:00:57 -!- Frelus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:07:45 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:10:43 -!- edgefigaro has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:14:48 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:24:37 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 08:30:43 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:32:31 -!- argent0 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:36:09 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:39:13 -!- siepu has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:41:12 -!- groth has quit [Quit: Be back later ...] 08:42:55 -!- edgefigaro_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:44:03 ASSERT(_parent) in 'database.cc' at line 266 failed. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9788 by DEIHARD 08:48:29 -!- siepu has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:48:34 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:19 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:51:03 chequers: hey, sorry I missed you last night. it looks like you had some discussion around it already -- what are you current thoughts? 09:06:35 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 09:07:51 what about every time something dies around you your pbd buff is increased by 1 and its duration refreshed 09:08:17 then if it reaches the end of the duration it decreases by 1 every turn 09:08:34 make the duration like 5 turns or so 09:09:26 maybe less 09:09:26 maybe 2-4 09:10:18 so if you start losing your buff while attacking a tough enemy you still dont lose it all at once 09:10:22 just 1 per turn 09:12:03 i would just reduce the regen amount to nerf it? seems like all the proposed stuff is unnecessarily complicated 09:12:20 they want it to be good while in combat 09:12:32 but not so great for just healing you up after combat 09:13:46 -!- surr has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:14:38 my proposal wouldn't be that complicated for the user, they can see all they need to know from the buff sign 09:14:45 kill stuff and it goes up 09:14:54 stop killing stuff and it starts dropping 09:15:40 that's about as simple as it is currently 09:17:23 ??regen 09:17:24 regeneration[1/8]: Increases the rate at which you regain HP per turn, at the expense of more nutrition. Different sources stack and vary in effectiveness. The default hunger rate for most races is 3 nutrition per turn. A ring (amulet in 0.16+) of regeneration takes that to 6 per turn. Regeneration doesn't work when you're {sick}; instead it makes Sickness disappear faster. 09:17:45 ??regen[2 09:17:45 regeneration[2/8]: The base regeneration rate is your maximum hitpoints / 3. If this number is over 20, then divide the result by two and add ten. For example, 100 max health results in a regen rate of 26. RR accumulates every turn and for every 100 RR you gain, you regenerate 1 hp. For 1 hp per turn, 540 health is needed. For 1 hp per 2 turns, 240. 09:18:23 ??regen[3 09:18:24 regeneration[3/8]: An amulet or troll leather armour adds 40 to your rr, player mutation 20 per level, and the status effect (spell) 100. What this means is that an amulet of regen or troll leather armour effectively doubles your healing rate (or better) for most characters. 09:19:42 then again 09:20:00 -!- quik has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:20:16 this proposal would make it more like a weaker version of makh 09:20:53 so maybe it is best to just leave it as is with maybe a small nerf 09:25:43 -!- Floortile has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:29:02 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Exit Stage Left] 09:32:58 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:33:15 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 09:34:10 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:36:17 -!- halberd has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:39:31 -!- Smello has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:40:01 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:55:55 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 09:56:59 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 09:57:49 -!- ktgrey has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 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ZZZzzz…] 13:21:59 -!- Chiseanne has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:22:36 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.17-a0-1394-gde347b4 (34) 13:23:54 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 13:25:45 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:38 -!- Dixlet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:53 -!- Shados has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:54 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:21 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 13:31:27 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:38:51 -!- WhiteShark has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:43:03 -!- ktgrey has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:43:41 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 13:49:36 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 13:54:38 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:55:15 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 13:56:32 !seen |amethyst 13:56:32 PleasingFungus: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 13:56:32 I last saw |amethyst at Tue Jun 16 05:50:46 2015 UTC (12h 5m 46s ago) saying 'or use a new letter for one or the other' on ##crawl-dev. 13:57:08 <|amethyst> what's up? 13:57:11 <|amethyst> not here for long 13:57:28 was wondering if you had any opinion on 9759 13:58:59 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:03:07 <|amethyst> the second change looks reasonable on first glance 14:03:09 <|amethyst> but also 14:03:16 <|amethyst> // If we're already in a cloud that we'd want to avoid then moving 14:03:16 <|amethyst> // from one to the other is okay. 14:03:29 <|amethyst> that should probably take into account difference in damage 14:03:44 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 14:04:35 <|amethyst> e.g. a monster that wouldn't be willing to enter a storm cloud from safety probably shouldn't be willing to enter one from a steam cloud, either 14:05:46 <|amethyst> but there is also the question of balance 14:05:58 <|amethyst> this doesn't just affect allies, it also affects players with cloud spells 14:06:07 yes, it is hard to stay balanced in a storm cloud. very windy in there 14:06:14 <|amethyst> I mean, against hostiles 14:06:18 <|amethyst> :P 14:06:49 <|amethyst> I mean, if we make monsters less willing to walk into a cloud, that makes cloud spells worse for most characters 14:06:55 -!- BOTBrad has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:06:55 -!- BOTBrad__ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:06:56 -!- BOTBrad_ is now known as BOTBrad 14:08:44 <|amethyst> (or better---conjure flame would be less likely to kill, but more effective for blocking or pinning) 14:09:26 -!- argent0 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:09:42 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 14:10:33 -!- Bcadren has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:10:40 -!- bencryption has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:10:51 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:30 There's a thread on the tavern right now where some posters are complaining that orbs of fire are bad enemies. It makes me want to create a similar enemy that's both dangerous and immune to a broad swath of attacks to add to Depths. 14:11:50 One could argue that it prepares players for orbs of fire by modeling similar behavior :p 14:12:33 as long as you make sure it doesn't check rc 14:13:06 as someone with no particular game design experience, i would love someone to tell me why my god idea is terrible. the basic mechanic is flexibility and preparedness. choose ahead of time some buff or ability you'd like to have: it stays available as long as you'd like, but you also suffer some malus (corrosion stacks or whatever) until you release the preparation. so you could prepare rF+ for gehenna, or prepare some escape ability befor 14:13:21 <|amethyst> @?? shrike golem 14:13:21 unknown monster: "shrike golem" 14:13:29 |amethyst: it's golem shrike, clearly 14:13:48 <|amethyst> no, it's a golem made up of shrike corpses glued together 14:13:52 haha 14:13:54 amazing 14:14:11 <|amethyst> it uses an air bladder to make them spit 14:14:17 <|amethyst> ??air bladder 14:14:17 I don't have a page labeled air_bladder in my learndb. 14:14:21 <|amethyst> ?/air bladder 14:14:21 No matches. 14:14:24 <|amethyst> ?/bladder 14:14:25 Matching terms (1): bladder; entries (4): bladder[1] | how[1] | mummy[3] | todo_monsters[3] 14:14:28 <|amethyst> ??bladder 14:14:28 bladder[1/1]: Once a month, someone asks how mummies use a blowgun. The answer is always a bladder. 14:14:32 <|amethyst> ??mummy[3] 14:14:33 mummy[3/7]: Mummy PCs do not need to eat food to survive. They also resist necromantic and cold attacks, are immune to poison, but vulnerable to fire. Also, they get permanent necro magic enhancers at xl13 and 26. Lastly, they cannot drink potions, change form or go berserk. According to syrion, PC mummies use bladders for firing blowguns. 14:14:41 <|amethyst> ??todo_monsters[3] 14:14:42 todo monsters[3/17]: decorator crabs, velvet worms, osedax worms (bone-worms), tardigrades, bladderworts, sundews, rocket hawks, aerial jellyfish 14:14:50 amalloy: I don't hear anything that's necessarily terrible there. Is there more detail available somewhere? 14:15:01 Lasty_: no, i just thought of this overnight 14:15:25 -!- Yllodra has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:15:40 haven't worked too much on details because i didn't know if the basic idea had promise 14:15:42 amalloy: gotcha. I think you'll need to get more detail before it'll be possible to have a useful evaluation 14:16:32 Lasty: imo add your new enemy to elf 14:16:37 as part of the legendary gammafunk elfreform 14:16:41 haha 14:16:43 <|amethyst> orb of elves 14:17:17 amalloy: some of the questions that come to my mind are: what sorts of things can you prepare, and what sorts of maluses could they give? How do you toggle preparations on and off? Does this god do anything other than give preparations? How quickly can you toggle a preparation? What role does piety play? 14:17:37 <|amethyst> FR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0dXyY-VFsA (no video) 14:18:15 from goblin throwers to elf kickers 14:18:29 oh, and the orc chuckers, ofc. 14:18:32 *orc hurlers 14:18:41 <|amethyst> @??chuck 14:18:42 Chuck (16C) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 120 | AC/EV: 14/2 | Dam: 45 | 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(100), 12drown | XP: 2182 | Sz: Giant | Int: human. 14:18:59 -!- groth has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:19:30 Lasty_: i'm pleased to say that these are all things i have at least thought about, but i don't have satisfying answers to all of them yet. thanks; i'll keep those questions in mind 14:20:26 |amethyst: I'm not super happy about adding more weird monster intelligence checks, but i don't really have any desire to change e.g. yak behaviour around dangerous clouds 14:20:33 wrt 9759 14:21:01 it feels like the actual desired behaviour here is to make friendly monsters more cautious around clouds, maybe? 14:21:19 ugh, also what role does invocations play. i was thinking it should be important, since there is no particular need for another no-invocations god, but then like...what can it actually do. soften maluses? 14:21:19 MarvinPA: I already nerfed the duration for PbD once; it's still very strong, so nerfing it again wouldn't necessarily be bad. That said, right now it's best in a huge fight, where you can sustain 7+ hp/turn extra regen without much trouble. 14:21:46 could monsters be made to tend to avoid clouds more when they're wandering as opposed to actively targeting something? 14:21:52 so i can close a 5-year-old bug report 14:22:06 which report? 14:22:16 also because it's really silly when uniques kill themselves by just walking into flame generators 14:22:20 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2980 14:22:29 ahh 14:22:48 I wonder if pulling mons_avoids_cloud into mons_pathfind stuff would accomplish that 14:22:48 MarvinPA: that seems like a good change 14:23:01 *calling mons_avoids_cloud from mons_pathfind 14:23:07 closer to the original suggestion in 9759 14:23:17 would also reduce the many tragic lernaean hydra deaths in sprint 1! 14:23:21 sort of tricky since that's nondeterministic 14:23:51 It seems to me that it would be fine to force all monsters not to walk into damaging clouds unless they've got a target 14:24:22 even mindless ones? 14:24:59 sure 14:25:11 Yeah, why not? Crawl's "mindless" isn't fully mindless -- it can still walk and pick targets 14:25:36 They even have EV, which implies that they have some understand of what harm is and wish to avoid it 14:26:30 !source mons_travel_cost 14:26:31 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-pathfind.cc#l479 14:28:02 -!- Piginabag has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:29:10 -!- giantbat has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:29:37 9759 reporter here. hi crawl-dev. :) PleasingFungus has the right idea. for balance, perhaps we could make the check friendly-only, so hostiles still path into the cloud? 14:29:43 if (env.cgrid(npos) != EMPTY_CLOUD && !actor_cloud_immune(mons, env.cgrid(npos))) { return 3; } or something like that 14:29:46 coledot: no reason to do that 14:30:05 ref 2980, as mpa noted 14:30:15 anyway 3 probably doesn't solve anything 14:30:16 hm 14:31:05 I guess maybe poke at monster_pathfind::traversable instead? 14:31:19 this will also do weird things to resting, btw 14:31:48 since the code which checks whether it's safe to rest uses monster pathfinding code (to see if any visible monsters can path to you) 14:34:44 -!- BOTBrad has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 14:36:39 -!- ketsa has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:39:31 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44:38 -!- xcourier has quit [Quit: xcourier] 14:54:13 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 14:54:39 -!- Dixlet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:54:56 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 14:57:00 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:58:05 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.17-a0-1395-g5916e71: Remove some more references to teleport control 10(6 hours ago, 16 files, 1+ 112-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5916e71557e1 14:58:05 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.17-a0-1396-g4ce9614: Remove feeding from Vitalisation 10(6 hours ago, 3 files, 4+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4ce96140e1a7 14:58:05 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.17-a0-1397-g0eee0a3: Increase Jiyva jelly paralysis duration 10(5 hours ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0eee0a340732 15:01:04 MarvinPA: wow, I didn't realize Vitalization gave so little food. I thought it scaled w/ Invo, too. 15:01:10 I also didn't realize that it took 0 MP 15:01:52 iirc that value was carefully calculated so that spriggans under zin couldn't get infinite food! when piety over time was a thing 15:02:08 or something silly like that 15:02:26 ha 15:03:00 i definitely remember that being the reason that it was moved from the prayer effect to the ability 15:03:24 You could pray for food under Zin? 15:03:31 when starving, yeah 15:03:39 Heh 15:04:01 Prayer used to do so much more than it does now . . . 15:04:08 but so much of it was trivial 15:04:11 and/or irritating 15:06:13 well lots of it was important! but it was just things that fit better as abilities, like injury mirror/lifesaving etc 15:06:43 heh, wow 15:06:48 fair enough 15:07:00 Did all the gods have a pray effect at one point? 15:07:32 i don't think so 15:08:11 there was zin feeding, trog book burning, kiku torment, yred injury mirror, jiyva jelly paralysis, i think that's it? 15:08:24 oh and ely lifesaving of course 15:08:34 Fedhas toadstooling, arguably 15:08:50 sure, that still exists on p though :P 15:08:53 yep 15:09:11 Given all that, I'm surprised that Sif didn't pray to channel 15:09:39 huh. is there a particular reason why explore mode isn't enabled on webtiles? 15:15:50 it's hooked into wizmode somehow, is what I understood from the last time someone asked 15:17:41 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:19:53 probably needs someone to carefully review that there are no hidden holes to allow escaping into wizmode or something 15:26:11 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:35 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:34 MarvinPA: don't forget praying before every kill for gods that gave piety for kills 15:29:34 minmay: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:29:37 !messages 15:29:37 (1/1) PleasingFungus said (1h 32m 40s ago): all the more reason not to buff it! 15:29:50 was that actually a thing 15:29:57 Lasty_: i wrote out my initial thoughts, which i think includes answers to all of the things you suggested i think about, at https://www.refheap.com/ad3c2160d33a98e132c289ca0 15:31:32 +Slay -AC/EV 15:31:33 oh yes 15:32:04 kvaak: yes, it was 15:32:10 !tv bruce killer=orc_priest 1 15:32:11 1/121. Bruce, XL4 DsMo, T:2900 requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org. 15:32:13 good lord 15:32:34 !nuke 15:32:35 FooTV playlist clear requested by *. 15:32:43 !tv bruce killer=orc_priest d:1 15:32:43 No games for bruce (killer=orc_priest d:1). 15:32:52 minmay: wow, tht's really awful 15:33:01 oh 15:33:04 !tv Butch killer="orc priest" min=turns 15:33:05 43. Butch, XL1 DsCK, T:9 requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org. 15:33:10 where did I get "bruce" from lol 15:33:13 amalloy: looking it up 15:33:17 you can see it in action here 15:33:49 except the monster doesnt get killed 15:34:07 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:34:11 i've seen a lot of weird crap on d1 but not a turn 2 disto orc priest 15:34:26 Ouch. 15:35:35 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:36:58 i guess i don't specifically address how to toggle these things. i was just thinking like aa presents a menu of things you can turn on, and ab is a menu of things you can turn off 15:40:11 kvaak: yes that doesnt really happen anymore 15:40:28 amalloy: some feedback -- 20 turns of no interruption could easily lead to frustrating things where bats and such keep generating and interrupting you. For MR+, I think AC/EV/Slay, or maybe "inaccuracy, could work. *Confuse might not be a big enough penalty -- maybe 2x *Confuse? Escape Route is the best preparation by a huge margin -- it needs to be substantially nerfed and probably given a bigger penalty. Multi-Action is also very, very strong; one p 15:40:46 d1 disto or d1 orc priests 15:40:49 i've seen both 15:40:52 amalloy: Overall, I think there's interesting potential here. 15:40:54 although notably less of the latter 15:40:54 Lasty_: you cut off at "strong; one pe" 15:41:06 Multi-Action is also very, very strong; one penalty might be having it so that everything else acts for the same amount of time as all the actions you took in a row after your actions end. 15:41:20 So you get a burst, but then so do they 15:41:27 that's a neat idea 15:41:55 -!- Vall has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:42:24 i know the escape route is the strongest one; it was the one i thought of first, when i was thinking instead about a movement/location focused god. if it is like outrageously super strong then i can swallow a nerf 15:42:57 If it's an instant tele back to any anchored place, it's probably the game's strongest ability. 15:44:19 Lasty_: what if it has to be on the current floor? i didn't intend for it to be like, "you grabbed the orb, now anchor back to d:1" 15:44:54 -!- ktgrey has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:44:58 -!- Dixlet has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:04 -!- BigBluFrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:45:14 teleport to staircase sounds quite powerful 15:45:16 even that is really strong if it is instant, i suppose 15:45:23 Even on the current floor it's exceptionally strong. All you have to do is set up a clear-ish area, or even specifically carve a burrow, and you can almost-certainly guarantee instant transit to a safe area. It's amazing for runes, in particular. 15:45:46 Instant teleport is strong, safe teleport is strong; this is both :) 15:45:52 true enough 15:45:59 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46:29 incidentally, Wulndraste has an instant-tele ability, and it's pretty good. Admittedly, that one uses felid respawn code to find a safe space. . . 15:46:36 lucy also has that 15:46:38 true 15:46:41 on top of that lucy is already in the game 15:47:10 yeah, lucy and wulndraste were some of the reasons i gave up on the movement-focused god idea 15:47:27 i was trying to find a mechanic that's interesting and we don't already have much of 15:48:08 +slay -ac/-ev 15:48:28 i guess berserk is something like that except for the part where it increases your death resistance by 50% 15:49:40 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 15:49:51 also it doesn't decrease your ac or ev 15:50:29 ??wulndraste 15:50:30 wulndraste[1/5]: Wulndraste the Wayfarer: god of exploration and not climbing stairs. New in experimental branches (CBRO). Wulndraste increases your HP/MP and regeneration, and removes the 50 mp cap. Wulndraste offers two powers, {blend_in} and {change_of_scenery}. 15:50:30 also, doesn't escape into the abyss take as much time as climbing stairs? or am I crazy 15:50:52 no 15:50:53 it's instant 15:51:48 PleasingFungus: but it decreases your accuracy if you quaff a Potion of "Lose 1 Point Of Accuracy For Every Level of Strength" (because it's hard to control the super fast movements). 15:52:25 I assume that came up in a tavern thread 15:53:48 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5856 15:54:06 you replied to it 15:54:56 Three years ago, huh. I bet I loved it. 15:55:19 Gene Therapy- Have the ability to extract the genes from different monsters to create mutations (with risk, obviously). And yes- I know that mutations already exist. All I'm saing is that it might be more fun for the player if they had a choice to bend down over a corpse and extract the genetic material from it. The genetic material would be stored in a potion bottle and used as a bioweapon... 15:55:20 ...or as a way to enhance the player's character. 15:55:29 yeah, it was a pretty amazing suggestion 15:55:36 i don't think that's what gene therapy means 15:55:41 I think that was before I understood twelwe's schtick 15:56:34 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:52 tbf, that post was unusually serious 15:57:11 maybe he also didn't understand twelwe's schtick yet 15:58:29 :P 16:02:02 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:04:38 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:05:32 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:16 -!- schistosoma has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:12:55 -!- Fusha has quit [] 16:18:15 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:21:00 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:23:56 -!- Dixlet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:18 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 16:29:44 -!- Dixlet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:30:12 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 16:30:15 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 16:30:17 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 16:30:34 -!- Dixlet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:30:43 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 38.0.5/20150525141253]] 16:30:51 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:37 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:54 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=16578 for the first time ever, someone picks short short as their starting weapon 16:44:10 but a short short holds so very few bits! 16:45:22 -!- quik has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:45:29 -!- hurdos has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:08 i was thinking that exact same thing :( 16:47:20 word up gammafunk 16:51:04 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 16:52:32 maybe the easy nerf to Escape Route is to make it delay or slow you for a couple turns before going off (activating the portal or whatever), and be limited to the current floor. then it is still a little faster than regular tele, and lands you someplace safe, but it is a tradeoff because you are defenseless instead of being able to duck and weave 16:53:52 -!- __miek has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:56:27 amalloy: is this for your god design? 16:56:31 yeah 16:56:44 hrm, this sounds familiar, was this part of W? 16:56:59 gammafunk: this one ability is similar to Change of Scenery 16:57:02 (which is W) 16:57:18 ??wulndraste 16:57:18 wulndraste[1/5]: Wulndraste the Wayfarer: god of exploration and not climbing stairs. New in experimental branches (CBRO). Wulndraste increases your HP/MP and regeneration, and removes the 50 mp cap. Wulndraste offers two powers, {blend_in} and {change_of_scenery}. 16:57:20 amalloy: well one thing I'd do is compare to the escape abilities of other gods 16:57:33 -!- Senjaii has quit [Changing host] 16:57:44 as I see it, step from time, sanctuary, gate to abyss, and probably others 16:58:04 right 16:58:13 there are more than a few gods with panick buttons, so it's good to be different from those 16:58:50 or at least if it's to be similar to an existing god ability, the god is otherwise well-differentiated 16:59:23 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 16:59:28 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 16:59:28 I'd imagine "someplace safe" is rather tricky to get right, depending on how you mean safe 16:59:56 an enemy just out of LOS while you're defenseless might be worse than serial randtele 17:00:09 gammafunk: did you read the original proposal, or just inferring stuff based on my suggested nerf? 17:00:19 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:00:19 the latter, just reading what you wrote 17:00:22 okay 17:01:22 gammafunk: part of the reason i'm having trouble figuring out how strong is "too strong" is that there's also an active penalty just for making the ability available. and "safe" in this context was "at a place the player designated when choosing to enable the ability" 17:01:39 -!- omega_mopsi has quit [Quit: pois] 17:01:44 so it will be the player's fault if it's not safe, at least 17:01:57 oh, the player pre-emptively chooses a safe spot? 17:02:01 yes 17:02:12 the original proposal was at https://www.refheap.com/ad3c2160d33a98e132c289ca0, before any changes suggested 17:02:27 you don't have to read it of course, but it will help the conversation if you do 17:03:43 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:04:21 heh, rF+ / rC- but rC+ / rC- 17:04:26 someone doesn't like rF- one bit 17:05:16 haha did i get that wrong? 17:05:42 hrm, what's the "other attributes will suffer until the worshipper relaxes" 17:06:20 gammafunk: it's clarified in a later paragraph: the penalties in that table, and some sort of generic penalty (maybe -Horr, or -Corr or whatever) for every ability 17:06:44 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 17:07:03 oh I'd assumed this penalty was after disabling 17:07:25 gammafunk: no, i don't think that works very well 17:07:35 oh, i see what you mean 17:09:03 gammafunk: i think if these abilities are sustainable indefinitely, then you want the penalty to happen at the same time as the bonus. otherwise players will either never turn it off, or will turn it off and then sit around for a bunch of turns waiting for the penalty to wear off. i like the idea of these abilities being tradeoffs instead of just straight buffs 17:09:29 yeah, it's just going to be a bit similar to Ash 17:09:42 except a bit weirder in that 17:09:53 some of these penalties are going to be awful similar to their bonus 17:10:01 -!- coledot has quit [Quit: coledot] 17:10:07 particularly the +Slay/EV/AC ones 17:10:51 -!- Dixlet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:52 there's the best difference between +Slay and +AC/EV 17:10:58 but +AC vs +EV are pretty similar 17:11:08 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 17:11:44 gammafunk: yes, perhaps those should just be merged. i was thinking of +offense and +defense at one point; i don't really recall why i changed. i guess because i wanted spriggans to be able to get just AC, and fighters to get some EV 17:12:51 -!- coledot has joined ##crawl-dev 17:12:55 if it is just +AC/+EV, it seems like a weak bland buff, as opposed to shoring up whatever you are weak in 17:14:03 maybe that just means the trio of 1* abilities don't need to exist at all 17:15:09 It will come down to how good the higher-piety abilities are I think 17:15:33 perhaps you need to really flesh those out and make them compelling 17:16:16 nothing seems horribly outright wrong with the lower-tier ones (at least by crawl's standards), but also not terribly exciting 17:16:45 -!- muravey has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:16:50 I think you're right in that, if the prep abilities are a good idea, it's better that they're continuous and the penalty active with the bonus 17:17:01 less interface, no bad "resting off" effects 17:17:21 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:17:35 maybe the android or the circle will have more constructive criticism or see something I'm not 17:17:39 -!- Foamed has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:20:50 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:21:37 gammafunk: thanks for looking at it. i'll make some revisions re the feedback i've gotten from you two 17:27:06 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:28:13 -!- Akitten_Homura has joined ##crawl-dev 17:28:15 -!- AnnoyedKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 17:28:18 -!- AnnoyedKitten has quit [Client Quit] 17:28:25 -!- Akitten_Homura has quit [Client Quit] 17:30:14 oh. the solution to the 20-turn problem pointed out by Lasty is just to have the abilities have a warm-up time in addition to the cooldown time. like when you say "gimme some rF+", you get rC- immediately, and then 10 turns later you get rF+ 17:34:00 -!- Gorgo_ has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:36:05 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:37:15 -!- gressup has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:38:14 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:39:18 Unstable branch on crawl.buzz updated to: 0.17-a0-1397-g0eee0a3 (34) 17:40:48 -!- stanzill has quit [Quit: au rev] 17:41:26 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 17:41:30 isn't that just going to encourage resting after activation 17:41:44 -!- stubblyhead_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:48 unless you mean that it's part of the action 17:42:09 i don't have a big problem with resting after activation. the point of the delay is to stop you changing stuff mid-combat 17:42:36 lasty objected to making it part of the action, because you don't want to make be interrupted by a quokka walking up to you 17:42:48 well it sounds kind of bad to me that you'd want to hit . time times with almost every activation of this 17:42:53 *ten times 17:43:18 -!- ktgrey has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:43:33 <|amethyst> base it on kills or xp? 17:43:49 <|amethyst> activate it now, get the positive effect after X% of a level 17:43:52 possibly, yeah 17:44:04 that might be awkward as well, depending on how it works 17:44:05 <|amethyst> I guess that encourages "grinding" 17:44:07 "stash a goblin" 17:44:12 that seems even worse. i need rF+ for gehenna, so i'm going to turn it on and then pop into slime 17:44:16 <|amethyst> in the sense of fighting monsters to get XP to level something up 17:44:17 <|amethyst> yeah 17:45:36 amalloy: you might want to think a bit harder though as to how to avoid switching in combat without adding "weird" behaviour after activation in terms of things the player would be encouraged to do 17:46:07 -!- sinusoidal_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:46:14 gammafunk: a nice thing about the 10-turn warmup period, during which you can still do other stuff, is that you can stack these up: turning off two abilities and turning on two others take 14 turns, not 40. and if you actually do this before traveling to the branch you're interested in, you don't have the 10-turn wait period, because you're traveling through the dungeon 17:46:39 i agree it is not great, and would welcome a better way of managing it 17:47:05 well you may have a point that there are instances where it's not annoying, but it's good to think about the "most typical use case" 17:47:14 -!- Crehl has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:47:16 or at least what that will be once you hit e.g. * piety 17:47:54 I guess player confusion with that warmup approach isn't all that bad, but that's another issue 17:48:17 we have things like gourmand or taking off gspirit that encourage resting 17:48:19 what do you mean by player confusion? 17:48:33 "I just activated this, where's the bonus?" 17:48:43 that's probably solved by good messaging/help desc. 17:48:43 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:20 "just rest 10 turns now that you've used this" feels bad to me since it's probably goinng to be that way 8 times out of 10 17:49:33 but that's just my 2 zorkmids 17:49:51 maybe others don't feel it's a problem 17:50:08 (they're horribly wrong, but there's nothing I can do!) 17:50:59 i agree it is a problem, but not a giant one and not an urgent one either. if the god's general idea is workable, the decision about how to handle startup can be deferred for a while as i see if it's all impossible to implement or whatever other problem 17:52:56 what I imagine players will do is, after activating just hitting 5 17:53:16 if activation interrupts 5, maybe that's a solution 17:53:41 well sure, it would print a message when it comes online i imagine 17:54:26 it seems to me the problem is with having to hit 5 at all, not with what happens after that 17:54:35 -!- ohyou has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:44 well yes, that was my complaint 17:55:09 but if it's only hitting 5, it's not really worse than taking off gspirit 17:55:17 <|amethyst> well, if you have to press 020. rather than 5 in order to not waste time, that's even worse than hitting 5 17:55:18 -!- swaglord is now known as Guest46636 17:55:18 in practice is what I'm concerned about 17:55:52 yeah, that would really be bad, to have it ideal to repeat . an exact number of times 17:56:15 <|amethyst> probably you'd want a new activity_interrupt_type and not just a message 17:56:21 yeah 17:56:26 <|amethyst> then that could be made to interrupt resting and maybe travel by default 17:56:34 <|amethyst> probably shouldn't interrupt eating for example :) 17:56:47 oooh, trigger penalty when the player eats 17:56:51 unexplored design space! 17:57:18 "The partially eaten ration comes alive and attacks you!" 17:57:23 <|amethyst> mouth Jiyva 17:57:36 <|amethyst> instead of bonuses when a jelly eats something 17:57:44 -!- NeremWorld has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:58:00 <|amethyst> hates rods, channelling, and high-level spells 18:05:16 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.17-a0-1397-g0eee0a3 (34) 18:05:40 -!- Foamed has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:09:19 -!- Yllodra has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:12:27 -!- Senjaii has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:12:49 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 18:13:02 -!- twofortypee has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:17:20 -!- siepu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:50 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:27:17 -!- NeremWorld has quit [] 18:31:27 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 18:38:57 -!- Suga_H has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:39:52 -!- mizu_no__ has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:44:14 -!- Frelus has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:53:42 -!- aarujn has joined ##crawl-dev 18:55:26 -!- BOTBrad_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:56:55 -!- panicbit has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:57:06 -!- argent0 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:58:16 Should a Formicid in Hog-Form be able to dig? 18:59:17 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 19:00:55 just pretend you're rooting for truffles >.> 19:03:40 (sadly I'm pretty sure crawl's idea of a hog is domesticated; wild hog tusks are good for digging --- but also make formidable weapons) 19:04:50 -!- Vizer_ is now known as Vizer 19:04:59 Just keep your nose to the ground 19:05:11 Eat whatever you find 19:07:52 -!- mizu_no__ has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:13:17 -!- DDFig has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:17:18 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:20:54 how about they can just devour wandering mushrooms? 19:22:34 feature request 19:25:05 MakMorn: formicids can dig in any form except tree 19:25:19 !bug 9024 19:25:20 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9024 19:25:26 sadly 19:26:35 I tried to Tree-form myself right after I was Hog-Formed, but it didn't work 19:26:38 is there like a hello world somewhere for defining new gods? like if i want to make one whose aa ability is to tell you you're smart, do i have to go looking myself for all the places i need to change/add code? 19:26:41 -!- stubblyhead_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:07 i'd just look for a commit that adds a new god 19:27:12 it's how i made bears 19:27:34 -!- Menche has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27:38 well except it was a commit that added a new race obviously 19:27:44 FR bear gods 19:27:53 I think the randgod branch tried to clean up the god code a bit? 19:27:57 -!- Menche has quit [Changing host] 19:28:07 not helpfiul for trunk of course >.> 19:28:07 Lasty_: around? 19:30:31 %git 985d96ca 19:30:31 07Grunt02 * 0.15-a0-484-g985d96c: Gozag: enums, descriptions. 10(1 year, 3 months ago, 15 files, 144+ 24-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/985d96caa06b 19:30:35 this one looks pretty clean 19:30:35 amalloy: check out the branch random-god in my repo, it creates a no-op god 19:31:59 -!- Gorgo has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:32:03 Friendly pan lord (from Pentagram Card) makes himself hostile with fulminant prism 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9790 by Denvon 19:33:38 chequers: thanks, that one seems pretty clean as well 19:34:52 -!- Dixlet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:11 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 19:38:16 MakMorn: badforms prevent shapeshifting so you can't just cast spider form or whatever to exit hogform 19:38:49 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:41:38 -!- Dixlet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:25 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 19:43:45 -!- Dixlet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:11 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 19:44:41 -!- anubiann00b has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 19:48:53 -!- mnoleg69reagan42 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:51:31 -!- Moanerette has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:58:03 -!- aarujn has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:58:09 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:52 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:03:54 -!- mizu_no__ has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:10:01 -!- Dixlet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:10:15 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 20:10:33 chequers: your random-god branch doesn't actually compile (bad syntax on an if), and segfaults on gaining piety, if that issue is fixed. nonetheless i found it helpful 20:12:18 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 20:32:23 -!- Pluto has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:39:02 -!- edgefigaro has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:41:37 -!- MgDark_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:32 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:43:35 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 20:46:23 -!- muravey has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:46:23 -!- kroki has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:50:07 -!- NekoRex has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:50:50 -!- anubiann00b has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:57:24 -!- Fluffhead has quit [Quit: Fluffhead] 21:00:07 -!- pintc has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:05:39 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:08:38 -!- pintc has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08:56 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:10:48 -!- seriallos has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:12:43 <_miek> it creates a god with some random mish-mash of abilities? 21:16:18 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:17:38 -!- kunwon1 is now known as GhostInZSH 21:18:10 -!- GhostInZSH is now known as kunwon1 21:35:57 amalloy: _miek: it's unfinished work to do that 21:36:21 i just got bored quite soon after creating a god framework 21:36:47 i've been able to get a hello world up and going. aa gets you simple_god_message(" says: Hello, world!"); 21:38:46 * Grunt says: "Please hang up and try again." 21:39:06 (fun pastime: try praying as a Gozag follower) 21:39:44 -!- anubiann00b has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:41:34 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:26 * gammafunk slaps Grunt with a wet trout! 21:52:22 -!- blazinghand has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:47 -!- Yllodra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:56:46 _miek: Is there a link to this? 21:57:15 Lightli: the random god thing? it's very much unfinished 21:57:22 doesn't really do anything at all 21:57:24 <_miek> Lightli: I was asking about it too, so dunno 21:58:09 _miek, Lightli: https://github.com/amalloy/crawl/commits/herkan is some stuff i did today, to create an example new god that doesn't do anything much 21:58:50 i guess https://github.com/crawl/crawl/compare/master...amalloy:herkan is a better link 21:59:48 wow, you can use that syntax in github links? 22:00:04 gammafunk: yes. also, github will produce such links for you, if you click around to the right places 22:00:12 hrm, it's three ... 22:00:21 I'm used to using git log branch1..branch2 22:00:45 wonder what git command this corresponds to 22:00:46 gammafunk: .. shows only the stuff added in b2 relative to b1; ... shows stuff added in either one relative to their least common ancestor 22:00:55 gammafunk: git rev-parse i think 22:01:00 hrm 22:01:17 I think it's then because I don't want ... 22:01:20 -!- dakonic has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:01:23 but rather want .. with the right direction 22:01:30 -!- CanOfWorms has joined ##crawl-dev 22:01:32 but from what you're saying, probably both work for the link 22:02:01 -!- MgDark has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 38.0.5/20150525141253]] 22:02:02 usually I want to see what's branch-only without regard to anything from master 22:02:09 so .. is what I want, but good to know about ... 22:02:39 yes, i usually want .. as well 22:02:39 sounds like ... is also the same regardless of which branch comes in what order 22:03:03 but ... was the one github generated, for comparing my branch to current upstream 22:03:11 -!- ktgrey has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:03:14 yeah, good to know about both ... and the github links 22:03:15 -!- Sonata has quit [Quit: ₪₪₪-₪₪₪-₪₪-₪₪₪] 22:03:44 gammafunk: you can get to them from the Branches link on the main page of a repo, and then for each branch there's a Compare button on the right 22:05:19 ??beneficial mutation 22:05:19 beneficial mutation[1/2]: A beneficial replacement for potions of gain stat in 0.13. Gives a random beneficial mutation. Can give dubious mutations like {wild magic} so be careful. For a beneficial list of possible benefits, see {beneficial mutations}. 22:05:34 ??beneficial mutations 22:05:34 beneficial mutations[1/2]: Possible "beneficial" mutations: strength (+2/+4), intelligence (+2/+4), dexterity (+2/+4), rPois (1), carnivore (1-3), rF (1-3), rC (1-3), rElec (1), fast healing (1-3), slow metabolism (1-2), MR (1-3), SInv (1), spit poison (1-3), breathe flames (1-3), blink (1-3), clarity (1), ... 22:05:50 ??beneficial mutations[2 22:05:51 beneficial mutations[2/2]: ...rMut (1-3), evolution (1-2), robustness (1-3), horns (1-3), beak (1), claws (1-3), fangs (1-3), hooves (1-3), antennae (1-3), talons (1-3), tentacle spike (for octopodes) (1-3), stinger (Na/Dr only) (1-3), fur (1-3), high MP (1-3), wild magic (1-3), passive mapping (1-3), {scales} (up to 3 total levels of any type} 22:10:38 -!- coledot has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:13:12 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:13:44 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:14:36 sorry didnt mean to spam that in this channel - just noticed 22:17:59 -!- quik has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:22:27 how many colors can we support in console? 22:22:43 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:23:42 -!- coledot has joined ##crawl-dev 22:26:39 16 should be the limit afaik 22:27:16 we could theoretically move to 256 at some point 22:27:28 I think the obstacle to that was that a couple of consoles didn't support that 22:27:40 <|amethyst> watching 22:27:48 -!- CaptainFruitcake has joined ##crawl-dev 22:27:54 <|amethyst> by people with such terminals 22:28:16 |amethyst probably remembers these discussions better than I do :) 22:28:22 -!- Chance671 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:39 and we couldn't just make our code smart enough to handle 16 v 256? 22:29:17 <|amethyst> that's not the problem, the problem is if someone with a 16-colour terminal wants to watch someone who's using 256-colour 22:29:40 <|amethyst> could probably filter that out but it would require code in dgamelaunch to do that 22:29:57 what if i want just 17 colors 22:30:13 <|amethyst> then we can support one more terminal, since rxvt has 88 colours 22:30:39 88 colors? why...? 22:30:40 <|amethyst> actually, 17 colours is even easier than that 22:30:55 huh, i guess i didn't realize you could send 256 color over ssh 22:30:59 <|amethyst> because in most terminals the 'default' colour can be different from lightgrey 22:31:01 -!- mamgar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:31:02 but apparently it just works in my terminal 22:31:10 <|amethyst> amalloy: it's just new escape sequences 22:31:44 -!- Cerpin has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:31:47 bh: 88's lucky that's a good enough reason rite? 22:31:47 <|amethyst> as long as your terminal supports it and your $TERM on the remote machine claims it is supported, it should work 22:31:50 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:31:59 -!- CaptainFruitcake is now known as CanOfWorms 22:32:12 <|amethyst> (or even if $TERM doesn't claim that, if the program doesn't care and does 256-colour anyway) 22:32:42 <|amethyst> the state of terminals makes me sad 22:32:51 <|amethyst> s/ls/l emulators/ 22:33:56 <|amethyst> well, maybe the state of $TERM and the fact that there's no well-supported way to just pass a terminfo block or such (rather than the name of an entry that might mean two different things on both sides) 22:35:25 <|amethyst> and so many things just use 'xterm' as their $TERM, but on so many older or more traditional systems the 'xterm' terminfo says 8 colours plus bold 22:36:17 le sigh 22:37:05 <|amethyst> anyway, the effect of this is that you can't detect it worth crap so overrides are likely to be necessary for many users 22:37:29 hrm 22:37:37 <|amethyst> the other concern about 256-colour is that it can make things hard to distinguish 22:37:41 I'm also kind of concerned that many of those 256 colours aren'..yes 22:37:46 <|amethyst> and consider colourblind users 22:38:00 I'm not sure how brogue uses all those extra colours other than for "cute effect" 22:38:04 <|amethyst> most TEs won't let you override all 256 colours 22:38:37 i think 256 colors would be fine if it were just used for like...art. fancier versions of the multicolored walls in elf or whatever 22:38:39 <|amethyst> gammafunk: a lot of it is that, but it does shade things for lighting (and optionally stealth radius) 22:38:43 gammafunk: it makes things pretty, that's about it 22:38:43 but not for anything meaningful 22:38:50 I find it a struglle to even tweak my own colours so that "blue" is not an eyesore 22:38:59 as it stands I try to make things not blue when possible 22:39:08 lightblue is ok, but blue is bad 22:39:10 -!- Ququman has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:11 |amethyst: I'm not worried about colorblind users. Add an rc option if we wanted to go that path 22:39:45 bh: well I don't want to make things "pretty" if it also makes them difficult to distinguish for gameplay purposes 22:40:12 gammafunk: well sure, I'm in agreement with that 22:40:21 <|amethyst> gammafunk: consider elemental colours 22:40:25 yeah 22:40:30 that's a good example where it would indeed help 22:40:44 although there's still the nasty issue of "hit space to double check what that is" 22:41:06 "is that a butterfly or a zerked shard shrike" etc 22:41:20 well caustic shrike maybe, but that's the problem 22:41:50 <|amethyst> can't really do much about that (timed animation in console) without massively increasing ttyrec size (and making idle-detection much more of a pain) 22:42:14 <|amethyst> (and making playing over ssh slow for more people) 22:42:43 I guess I'm saying we might actually need to be conservative where we apply extra colours even if we did get them 22:42:57 <|amethyst> IMO don't use them by default 22:42:59 if we made walls prettier, I think it would be a win 22:43:03 <|amethyst> except *maybe* for randarts 22:43:13 like, four shades of yellow/brown instead of one 22:43:18 <|amethyst> one problem there 22:43:41 <|amethyst> what about people who have in their rc remapped metal walls to blue? 22:43:54 <|amethyst> does that mean they don't get 256-color for those walls? 22:44:35 <|amethyst> I guess that would be a not unreasonable solution, but e.g. only changing one of the colours, or having to spell them all out, would be a pain 22:44:43 hrm 22:44:58 could use variants mapped to shades of base colour? 22:45:14 <|amethyst> possibly, but then you have to compute in weird terminal colour space :) 22:45:16 not all walls have variants though 22:45:18 <|amethyst> IMO for monsters and features we should use 16-colour in all defaults 22:45:42 <|amethyst> well, other than things that are currently elemental maybe 22:45:45 I'm guessing that this corner of crawl is pretty hairy? I only bring it up because I started writing a raytracer for roguelikes 22:45:51 gammafunk: i don't think anyone would appreciate that. if i map my metal walls to blue, it could be because i have trouble seeing the cyan they're in, and i don't want you re-colouring my chosen colour 22:46:19 amalloy: well rc options can have syntax to support this 22:46:32 but probably what |amethyst is suggesting, which is very conservative, is best 22:46:47 <|amethyst> right, and I tweaked my terminal's blue (colour 4) to be more readable 22:47:39 -!- Chance671 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:46 I'm not sure that saying "we don't want people to have to change their rc" is all that reasonable, but I do agree that it's just best to not try to use the extra colours too much 22:47:58 <|amethyst> but crawl thinks colour NN is a shade of colour 4 and gives it to me as a variant, when I can't read NN on black 22:48:54 if anything maybe we can find a better colour than "blue" in the 256 22:49:05 I doubt anyone realy likes looking at that colour on a black background 22:49:41 oh no, there's a black mamba right there! 22:49:46 I didn't see it! 22:50:04 <|amethyst> my blue is a nice #597aff, I don't know what's wrong with most people's terminals :) 22:50:11 maybe I should try that! 22:50:53 ah, see 22:50:55 <|amethyst> and lightblue is a nice periwinkle #aba9fd 22:50:58 the problem..yes 22:51:03 that blue is "lightblue" 22:52:05 <|amethyst> yeah, that first one might be called "lightblue" by some people, but they have no understanding of human vision 22:52:22 <|amethyst> :P 22:52:36 1learn add devteam_hubris 22:52:49 <|amethyst> or maybe they use different gamma settings? 22:53:07 yeah youre periwinkle is just very similar to white 22:53:10 to my eyes 22:53:51 <|amethyst> yeah, it's probably a little too light but I can distinguish it so I'm happy :) 22:54:22 I'll just go back to dying to black mambas....;_; 22:55:21 hrm, maybe having blue/lightblue more similar and just relying on the bold will work 22:55:49 Where do we do our drawing, which file? 22:55:50 if it weren't for bold colours, I couldn't play console 22:56:14 (gammafunk, man of action!) 22:56:39 -!- Dixlet has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:59:18 <|amethyst> bh: writing to the terminal and selecting colour codes? several places 22:59:20 -!- agentgt has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:00:30 |amethyst: I was afraid of that :) 23:00:44 <|amethyst> git grep put_colour_ch will show several but there are other direct calls to textcolour 23:01:15 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 23:01:29 <|amethyst> view.cc is the 'main' one for the dungeon view area 23:02:25 'LIGHTGREY = LIGHTGRAY' ha 23:03:18 if you mean the actual draw, it seems that a call to addnwstr () from putwch() in libunix.cc 23:03:25 <|amethyst> also, you have to deal with curses colour-pair stuff 23:03:28 -!- LordSloth is now known as Slothlord 23:06:32 color-pair is a painful interface 23:06:39 <|amethyst> bh: curs_fg_attr is probably something to look at: it takes a colour number, which might also have a brand set like 'friendly monster', maps it, and turns it into a curses colour pair 23:07:02 -!- alvarops has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:35 <|amethyst> it's even worse than just colour pair because in 16-colour land, "bright" is really "bold" 23:08:00 curses is a painful interface >.> 23:08:13 <|amethyst> the terminal is a painful interface 23:08:23 <|amethyst> and no one really wants to improve it because guis :( 23:08:29 <|amethyst> s/guis/the web/ 23:08:50 -!- mibe has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:09:23 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:13 <|amethyst> (xterm has some nice settings to send systematic escape sequences for ctrl- shift- alt- plus pretty much any key; but you can't really enable it, because nothing supports it, and who uses xterm anyway) 23:12:46 <|amethyst> I am happy and somewhat surprised that 256-colour caught on so well 23:13:38 <|amethyst> but I guess "Unix programmers will get better syntax highlighting" will get a lot of things done that otherwise might not be 23:14:13 -!- PatchFace has quit [Quit: PatchFace] 23:15:33 <|amethyst> I guess it also helps that terminfo has a traditional and well-known field for "number of colours", unlike "what byte sequence do you get for ctrl-shift-numpad7?" 23:15:49 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:16:05 is that a reference to sdl 23:16:23 <|amethyst> well, it would be nice to know in console, wouldn't it? 23:16:32 I didn't really get the whole "it checks these keys" thing that sdl apparently does 23:17:17 <|amethyst> ? 23:18:00 apparently there's this thing where it checks like four specific keys for some keyboard-related purposes 23:18:16 so if you've remapped all of them you'll have problems 23:18:37 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:18:54 <|amethyst> ah 23:29:37 -!- Menche has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:29:42 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:33:18 -!- Slothlord is now known as LordSloth 23:40:15 -!- Lasty_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:22 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 23:51:19 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 23:57:35 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 23:59:11 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.17-a0-1397-g0eee0a3 (34) 23:59:15 -!- Cacophony has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:59:53 -!- Foamed has quit [Quit: Leaving]