00:00:19 -!- NeremWorld has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:02:32 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.16-a0-4002-g2d13b8e (34) 00:03:41 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 00:04:25 !tell marvinpa yeah there's opposition to that; both dpeg & I feel that duplicate provides an important early-game boost to gozagites (and I think at least one other dev likes it? I forget) 00:04:26 PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let marvinpa know. 00:04:47 !tell marvinpa removing it working on stacks just makes it almost useless tbh (ref: how it was before it worked on stacks) 00:04:47 PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let marvinpa know. 00:07:28 -!- Nerem has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:16:27 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.16-a0-4003-gfbce4a4: Revert "Make TRJ spawn jellies on a failed poly" 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 11-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fbce4a48d4ce 00:16:27 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.16-a0-4004-g8d6611c: Make TRJ spawn jellies when polymorphed (gammafunk) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8d6611c9f780 00:21:02 -!- rgould has quit [Changing host] 00:29:46 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:29:59 this is actually breaking the feature freeze 00:30:00 both of those 00:30:02 oops 00:30:09 I forgot it existed tbh 00:33:11 let's just skip to 0.17 00:33:14 no one will notice 00:34:32 oh you credited me but my idea was it would spawn jellies after polymorph upon taking damage, but what you did is fine 00:35:23 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:37:33 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:38:19 someone suggested the thing that I implemented, and I am way too lazy to check the logs to see who. 00:38:22 feh. 00:38:25 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 35.0.1/20150122214805]] 00:38:25 -!- rgould has quit [] 00:57:47 i once suggested something and then it got implemented and then everyone decided it was stupid and then it got de-implemented. 00:58:10 like dual-wielding but with bread 00:58:15 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev 00:58:16 The build was broken. (master - 8d6611c #1776 : Nicholas Feinberg): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/50726910 00:58:16 -!- travis-ci has left ##crawl-dev 00:58:27 but seriously, good job ontoclasm/bloax/whoever else on the latest tiles 00:59:30 minmay: if you dual wield with bread, how can you use cream cheese or jam? 01:03:28 -!- ldf_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:04:30 -!- demiskeleton has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:06:37 -!- tupper has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:11:46 -!- Lasty_1 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:13:41 -!- Lasty_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:21:43 -!- Kintak has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:22:32 -!- caleba has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:23:19 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 01:28:08 -!- buki has quit [*.net *.split] 01:28:10 -!- octotoad has quit [*.net *.split] 01:28:10 -!- Adder has quit [*.net *.split] 01:28:10 -!- droogie has quit [*.net *.split] 01:28:10 -!- flowsnake has quit [*.net *.split] 01:28:10 -!- Twinge has quit [*.net *.split] 01:28:10 -!- Henzell has quit [*.net *.split] 01:28:10 -!- pantaril has quit [*.net *.split] 01:29:13 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 01:35:57 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 01:38:57 -!- ClawlessVictory has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:41:14 -!- rgould has quit [Changing host] 01:42:04 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 01:45:37 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:48:06 -!- rgould has quit [] 01:49:31 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:49:34 -!- markgo` has quit [Client Quit] 01:51:21 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:58:31 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:01:29 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:02:07 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:31 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 02:18:09 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:21:34 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.16-a0-4004-g8d6611c (34) 02:23:29 -!- Pepe has quit [Quit: rebuttal] 02:24:49 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:33:27 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 02:33:39 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:33:53 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:43 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:36:39 -!- simmarine_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:44:08 -!- cribozai has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:46:03 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55:21 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:11:39 -!- mong has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1] 03:11:49 -!- spacet has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:12:20 -!- halberd has quit [Changing host] 03:12:25 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:15:39 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:17:03 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:16 -!- muravey_ has quit [Quit: Be back later ...] 03:30:10 -!- Patashu has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:30:10 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:33:06 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:18 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 03:34:48 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:35:24 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:35:34 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:36:44 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:44 -!- Patashu has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:37:28 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:37:39 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:47:03 -!- Twiggytwiggytwi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:47:35 -!- schistosoma has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:47:46 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 03:52:54 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:05:30 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:06:32 -!- Amy is now known as Guest74410 04:07:18 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:08:02 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:08:04 -!- Sonata has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:08:34 -!- y2s82 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 04:16:40 -!- Guest74410 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:22:50 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:27:34 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 04:28:23 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 04:29:55 -!- muravey_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:32:59 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:33:32 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:21:44 -!- stevee has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:29:13 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:34:23 -!- bitcoinbastard has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:35:48 -!- WereVolvo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:49:13 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:51:29 !tell pleasingfungus it is my opinion that it's a really really bad way to implement "early game boost" since it is ridiculously swingy in effectiveness depending on what you actually find in the first few dlvls (from "not effective at all in any way" to "duplicate +6ev/ac" or something) 05:51:30 MarvinPA: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 05:51:30 MarvinPA: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 05:53:08 !tell pleasingfungus unless you're suggesting that players will/should use it on stacks of 1 or 2 blinking/hw (which they probably should if nothing better shows up i guess, but they won't) 05:53:08 MarvinPA: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 05:55:45 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:57:26 i agree with that fwiw 05:58:32 gozag is basically all or nothing as far as early game gods go 06:00:42 allowing it to work on stacks means it presents itself as "wow, use this on a huge stack of something good later on" 06:01:06 when apparently that isn't how it's meant to be used, too 06:01:09 duplicating a small consumable stack early on is most likely optimal play but that is kinda gross to do 06:01:12 as a player 06:01:16 exactly, yeah 06:01:32 it's just boring and ew 06:02:37 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 06:10:33 -!- Amy is now known as Guest55855 06:12:03 -!- Sonata has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:16:44 -!- NotKintak has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:17:56 -!- domiryuu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:59 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:37:31 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 06:37:44 -!- olourkin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:44:44 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 06:45:39 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:54:13 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:03:18 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:11:42 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:21 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:16 -!- lazarenth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:33 -!- NotKintak has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:42:28 -!- caleba has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:42:53 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:44:23 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:46 -!- pentax has quit [Quit: ヒーロー見参！] 07:46:53 -!- stevee has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:09:27 -!- Insomniak has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:12:38 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:34 -!- Earlo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:01 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:23:58 -!- Sczcya has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:08 -!- Brannock_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:30 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:33:55 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 08:45:12 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:13:37 -!- mauris_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:17:41 -!- Alarkh has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:18:00 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:18:17 -!- muravey_ has quit [Quit: Be back later ...] 09:19:38 -!- alefury has quit [] 09:27:16 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 09:32:02 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:34:47 -!- Sczcya has left ##crawl-dev 09:35:33 -!- falu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:39:57 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:42:16 -!- schistosoma has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:45:22 -!- radinms has quit [] 09:48:48 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 09:51:49 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:53:12 !tell pleasingfungus poly trj was my suggestion. :p 09:53:12 Lasty: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 09:53:12 Lasty: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 09:53:13 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Client Quit] 09:54:59 Lasty: I drink your creditshake! 09:55:13 That's okay. When people get mad about it, I'll be over here laughing. 09:55:25 dang 09:55:47 ? 09:56:04 %git :/poly 09:56:04 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.16-a0-4004-g8d6611c: Make TRJ spawn jellies when polymorphed (gammafunk) 10(10 hours ago, 1 file, 10+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8d6611c9f780 09:56:29 PF just likes to randomly list awesome people in parenthesis at the end of his commits 09:56:32 good habit imo 09:57:44 Agreed. My favorite was when he credited Neil DeGrasse Tyson, 09:57:53 Or was that a fever dream 09:58:02 %git :/DeGrass 09:58:03 Could not find commit :/DeGrass (git returned 128) 09:58:10 (I was kidding) 09:58:13 aw 09:58:14 <|amethyst> %git :/neil 09:58:15 07ChangeAj02 {|amethyst} * 0.15-a0-1830-g6f411d1: Add getting monster spells to clua m:spells() (#8737) 10(8 months ago, 6 files, 113+ 45-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6f411d154727 09:58:46 Lasty: some commit involving the correct direction of rotation of the earth or something... 09:59:40 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 10:02:20 A revision to the constant number of turns after which the universe ends 10:03:05 ??kobold 10:03:06 kobold[1/2]: One of the three main causes of early-game mage death, thanks to spawning fairly often with either stones, a blowgun+poisoned needles, or rarely a hand crossbow. Melee characters should not need to worry too much unless the kobold is using curare-tipped needles. 10:03:09 ??kobold[2 10:03:10 kobold[2/2]: While the true nature of the Kobold remains a mystery, some ancient texts have described it as "a sort of brown moth". 10:03:26 wow, is the player species so boring that it doesn't even warrant a learndb entry 10:04:34 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:05:35 lol 10:08:08 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 10:08:19 -!- titanjones has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:12:26 -!- FiftyNine has quit [] 10:18:59 -!- mercury^ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:19:03 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:19:43 secret tech, play the species that aren't documented because the greatplayers are obviously hogging them to themselves :p 10:20:29 -!- Slen is now known as Guest43546 10:20:41 -!- Guest43546 has quit [Client Quit] 10:20:57 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:13 -!- Kintak has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:21:53 Hi, I just started a game in trunk after not having played for many months. I am using the ctrl:swapcaps X11 option, so that my capslock key is reported as left control. This did not cause problems with crawl (or anything else) before, but crawl does not recognise that key now. It does recognise the actual control key as such (and should not). 10:22:17 From what I see crawl has switched to SDL2, and I think that must be the cause. 10:22:46 suggest you file a bug 10:22:47 -!- Nels has quit [Client Quit] 10:22:52 ??mantis 10:22:52 mantis[1/2]: To report bugs or submit new content like vaults, patches or tiles, go to: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php 10:25:25 Can I do that anonymously? 10:26:08 (I dislike creating accounts for bug trackers unless I am sure to use them several times.) 10:28:11 In the meantime, is there a workaround, via macros perhaps? 10:29:55 I can't imagine macros working for caps vs. control 10:29:56 !lg greaterplayers !boring s=species 10:29:57 108933 games for greaterplayers (!boring): 8733x Demonspawn, 7700x Mummy, 6028x Human, 5739x Deep Elf, 5400x Octopode, 4741x Ogre, 4564x High Elf, 4526x Spriggan, 4393x Hill Orc, 4015x Minotaur, 3991x Kobold, 3628x Naga, 3614x Vampire, 3587x Merfolk, 3392x Ghoul, 3132x Demigod, 3081x Sludge Elf, 3044x Tengu, 2983x Troll, 2510x Draconian, 2435x Halfling, 2287x Deep Dwarf, 1916x Kenku, 1904x Centaur... 10:30:09 and anonymous these days = I choose to look just like a spammer 10:33:18 do spellbooks automatically sort their contents these days? or does that still need adjusting manually when spell levels change 10:33:59 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:34:35 (was considering bumping gravitas down to level 5 so that people are more likely to try it and figure out what it's actually useful for) 10:35:39 is it even good enought to be l5? It seems like L4 might even be fine. After all, Enslave is a single-school L4 spell 10:35:57 Which product branch is master? 17+? 10:36:06 Side note: in 0.17 I'm inclined to bump Enslave to L6 10:36:07 no idea, i mean it does reliably move stuff around which is nice i guess 10:36:14 <|amethyst> mercury^: in mantis, 0.16 10:36:25 XP evoker status at time of dump is consdiered part of the item name in dump action report. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9486 by Brannock 10:36:25 force lance in particular is currently pretty ridiculous for that 10:36:33 but that's because it actually kills stuff too 10:36:44 !learn add adjust hex levels 10:36:45 adjust[1/1]: hex levels 10:36:47 erg 10:36:54 !learn del adjust 10:36:54 Deleted adjust[1/1]: hex levels 10:36:58 i'd suggest making enslave not a spell, really 10:37:07 !learn add lasty_to_do adjust hex spell levels 10:37:08 lasty to do[13/13]: adjust hex spell levels 10:37:09 seems okay a wand-only effect 10:37:11 also good 10:37:12 as a* 10:37:16 I approve 10:37:26 It opens up way more territory for hexes 10:37:42 but then En and AM probably each need something new (could give one of them gravitas) 10:37:50 yeah 10:38:03 AM maybe could make use of Gravitas 10:38:07 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 10:39:03 AM's skills are already spread pretty thin though and it's another new school for them 10:39:30 true 10:39:36 though a school that's good for them in general 10:39:41 although i suppose you don't really need fire for inner flame and yeah 10:39:56 yeah enslave the spell being not a spell seems reasonable 10:40:07 I know I should use it more than I do, I just don't want to... 10:40:40 Is it 0.17 yet? :p 10:41:01 btw, is there a list of stuff that still needs attention before 0.16 goes out? 10:41:07 yeah, kind of 10:41:10 ??0.16_plan 10:41:11 0.16 plan[1/1]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:0.16_plans 10:41:16 <|amethyst> bugs on mantis 10:41:17 I think G wrath is the biggest item 10:41:20 right, bugs 10:41:22 <|amethyst> there are some sdl2 problems 10:41:33 <|amethyst> like the altgr thing 10:41:59 there's also that general odd slowdown that's probably the result of my modification of the rendering loop 10:42:05 I think that might still be a thing? 10:42:16 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:42:25 MarvinPA: do you have plans to change G wrath? 10:42:43 I documented some ideas based on what PF told me you and he had discussed 10:42:53 <|amethyst> yeah, someone said on a raspi it was very slow, but minecraft for example is fine 10:42:53 Is the best way to see open issues to View Issues and then sort by status? 10:43:10 on a raspi... 10:43:46 -!- trckry has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:14 -!- TR_Muscateer has joined ##crawl-dev 10:44:51 <|amethyst> Lasty: Hide Status: resolved 10:44:51 Will mantis notify me by email if there is a change to my report? 10:45:01 mercury^: yes 10:45:16 <|amethyst> mercury^: you can set that under my account -> preferences 10:45:29 I does default to notification, doesn't it? 10:45:38 maybe I changed the setting and don't remember 10:45:41 <|amethyst> I think so 10:45:47 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:45:50 Yeah, it does. Thanks! 10:46:36 X11's ctrl:swapcaps not working anymore; (presumably after the switch to SDL2) 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9487 by rhl 10:46:58 I actually experience this problem too, but I didn't report it... 10:47:13 -!- spacet has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:47:20 Well, it's messing quite a bit with me. 10:47:25 -!- Whistling_Bread has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:47:36 gammafunk: the stuff that's on the wiki page is the minimum that i think is necessary, but like i mentioned i honestly don't think G is ready for stable after those changes 10:47:45 oh, huh 10:47:51 and i haven't been working on it myself because i would like to remove duplication in the process and other people don't want me to 10:48:20 hrm, well are you advocating removal of G or just putting it on the burner for another release? 10:48:27 the latter 10:48:40 i don't think he's a lost cause or anything, just still needs more time imo 10:48:40 well that's always reasonable 10:49:25 since if duplication does stay the wrath needs to work pretty well in order to counteract it, and i don't know that there's enough time to implement and test that 10:51:05 well would it be helpful to outline this in a response to david's G wrath thread on crd, and state that we're strongly considering holding G back again (and that removing G is not what's being considered)? 10:51:22 MarvinPA: do you have objections to G entering stable other than duplication/wrath? 10:52:54 since personally I would rather see duplication disabled (at least for now) and have G in 0.16 than delay the whole god because of it 10:53:37 nothing else in particular, yeah 10:55:08 i'd be okay with disabling duplication and having G in 0.16, the wrath would still need some work but it wouldn't be so important, i think 10:57:18 !lg devteamnp gozag s=name 10:57:19 129 games for devteamnp (gozag): 57x dpeg, 18x neil, 15x MarvinPA, 13x SGrunt, 6x gammafunk, 6x 78291, 5x Lasty, 4x wheals, 2x PleasingFungus, 2x Medar, elliptic 10:57:36 !lg elliptic gozag 10:57:37 4. circular the Ninja (L25 SpWn of Gozag), escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2014-05-17 04:14:55, with 2134239 points after 77685 turns and 5:24:38. 10:58:53 !won . gozag 10:58:53 elliptic (gozag) has won 4 times in 4 games (100.00%): 1xHOWn 1xHaFi 1xHuWn 1xSpWn 10:59:54 elliptic: that's a big chunk of Gozag wins. Do you think G is a strong god? 11:00:49 oh yeah i did do some work locally on changing the gold distraction thing into a duration on the player rather than a duration on the gold, since it's kinda bad how currently you're encouraged to not pick up gold, and to kite stuff (even if it's only a bit) 11:01:14 MarvinPA: god change! 11:01:18 but that seems hard to indicate well, a status light every time you kill something would be ugh 11:01:27 I haven't played G recently (as you can see), but I don't think G has changed that much since then... at the time G felt like a weaker but more interesting version of okawaru 11:01:37 Lasty: that's a vacuous statement. 11:02:01 not especially strong, but certainly playable 11:02:20 gammafunk: er, meant good change 11:02:58 (similar to okawaru because potion petition is like heroism/finesse and shops are like gifts) 11:03:33 -!- falu has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1] 11:03:37 -!- mercury^ has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:03:42 yeah, I could see that comparison 11:04:51 I feel like Heroism is better than most of what G offers, but otherwise the comparison makes sense to me 11:05:06 Lasty: like I said, weaker :P 11:05:12 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.16-a0-4004-g8d6611c (34) 11:05:36 though G does give haste which O does not 11:07:49 true, though finesse is similar in value 11:08:56 in many cases, sure... but sometimes you want to mainly be running away or using spells 11:10:52 I like G more than I like Q, at least 11:11:26 anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing G buffed, but I also don't think "weaker than oka" is a terrible place to be :P 11:11:40 -!- fearitself has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:12:36 well, it sounds like MPA or whoever is interested can go ahead with disabling duplication and tweaking G wrath, and we can tell dpeg (or explain when he notices the commit) 11:13:24 he was the one I recall being most strongly in support of duplication existing 11:14:58 probably should mention in the commit message for disabling/removing duplication (I don't know which makes more sense from a code standpoint) that it can be brought back when wrath is in better shape 11:17:24 on a separate topic, rPois- item stacking is currently quite broken and I think we should do one of two things about it: 11:18:30 (1) don't generate rPois- on randarts, have rPois- temporary effects interact with rPois the way they used to (you can get at most rPois0 if you are under a rPois- effect) 11:18:39 -!- muravey_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:55 -- 11:18:59 (2) make all sources of rPois+ and rPois- stack as one would expect and then cap at - and + 11:19:00 oops, wrong window 11:19:53 for (2), this would mean that two rPois rings would be better than one when using spider form or when a naga ritualist is using virulence 11:20:07 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:20:12 Is that bad? 11:20:27 not necessarily, no 11:20:47 but it would be a change from how spider form rPois- has always worked, so I wanted to mention it 11:21:19 -!- jefkin has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:21:47 <|amethyst> I think making multiple rings of rpois useless was part of the rationale for the current behaviour 11:21:55 I like the idea of rPois working more like other resistances 11:22:11 by capping at rPois +/- and having them stack as expected 11:22:23 |amethyst: yeah, the current intended behavior is that rPois+ never stacks, but it doesn't work properly 11:23:02 and player::res_pois or whatever that function is called is a mess 11:23:58 I also am not sure that this intended behavior is a good thing if rPois- randarts are going to be a thing 11:24:03 even if it worked properly 11:26:47 (the reason why it doesn't work currently is that player::res_poison() uses you.scan_artefacts(ARTP_POISON) to check for randart rPois+/- rather than checking for rPois+ and rPois- separately) 11:28:03 -!- siepu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:28:34 basically the randart property code treats rPois+/- just like any other resist, so I feel like we should actually treat it like other resists for stacking purposes in that case 11:29:21 but I also would be happy to just remove rPois- artefacts since I don't find them particularly worthwhile 11:30:19 After playing with rPois- artefacts for a while, I'm sort of inclined to agree. rPois- doesn't do much most of the time other than make it slightly harder to swap in rPois+ when you want it 11:30:50 AF_POISON type attacks just don't really matter for rPois- by the time you're finding artefacts 11:30:53 (in most games) 11:32:56 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:19 -!- Menche has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:41:03 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:41:54 -!- mauris__ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:42:28 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:49:33 gammafunk: as an xxx advocate, how do you handle the int loss? Not care about it? 11:49:49 Lasty: well it depends a lot on your usage 11:50:03 but =sustain is pretty effective, either wearing longterm or swapping in 11:50:06 and just use restorab 11:50:41 -!- Derobos has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:50:48 you're probably just 3-runing and will likely be using it to supplement on the way to dcall? 11:50:58 yeah 11:51:14 I have all the summoning books and more than 20 summoning skill, so I've got all the top-end options 11:51:34 you don't have to worry too much, the ring is nice to swap in when you xxx is needed to do more what menag + shadow (or + sgd, hydra, etc) can't do 11:51:39 I can probably get away w/o ever using XXX if I want 11:51:45 mostly "I need a lot of things around me right now" 11:51:52 that's where XXX is great 11:52:16 that or summon butterflies? :D 11:52:49 well if you want to preserve the life of whatever is adjacent to you, trying to kill you 11:52:54 butterflies is a good option 11:53:04 also note when you get dcall, you can cast before going down stairs and give the first enemy in LOS a nice welcome! 11:53:27 gammafunk: yeah, dcall is absolutely sick 11:53:36 but really, I'm not worried about much of anything: 11:53:42 &dump 11:53:43 http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/Lasty.txt 11:53:53 yeah my HuSu of J killed two oof and an ancient L in one cast of it 11:54:03 lol 11:54:03 fairly lucky rolls there, but still 11:54:38 I like that it's kind of like an "L10" spell, since the 9mp is just the up-front cost 11:54:55 yeah, that's interesting 11:56:28 -!- Zooty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:58:50 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 12:00:57 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:04:10 -!- halberd has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:05:51 -!- rgould has quit [Changing host] 12:08:44 -!- PsyMar has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:10:37 -!- Nate has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:15:25 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:44 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:53 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:22:53 -!- CKyle has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:45:23 -!- caleb_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:53:17 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 12:54:41 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:23 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:49 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:56:50 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 12:57:28 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 12:57:36 -!- rgould has quit [] 13:04:57 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:03 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: Killed by a kitten] 13:10:18 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:13:58 -!- siepu has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:13:58 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 13:16:57 -!- schistosoma has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:34 -!- NotKintak has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:23:58 hmm apparently a gozag wrath tech is to never wear sinv so gozag has a higher chance of making things invisible rather than hasting or mighting them 13:24:58 trying to figure out a reasonable way to decide how likely G should be to haste/might/berserk monsters without using the hardcoded bribability list, this is going to end up really awkward still i think 13:26:23 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:28:43 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:28:58 -!- Wah has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:30:25 -!- schistosoma has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:36:59 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:29 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:49:59 How about Gozag always hits monsters with haste and might and invis? Much more deadly, harder to game. 13:52:10 my current implementation is along the lines of: gozag wrath times out like ash with no active penance effects, while under wrath any potions you quaff have a 1 in x chance of failure, any monsters you see have a 1 in y chance of being berserked/hasted/mighted/agilitied 13:52:42 since those two effects are the only things left after removing all the bad stuff based on picking up items and gold 13:52:53 and decreasing penance when one of those effects happens wouldn't work 13:53:44 imo it's not great but better than the current state? i dunno really 13:53:50 -!- hhkb has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:55:14 i mean i guess having potions fail and monsters tend to berserk you repeatedly for a couple of XLs could be noticeable, but it'll mean a whole bunch of berserk popcorn as-is, and hd-based chances to trigger seem hard to make scale sensibly 13:56:29 -!- Whales has quit [Quit: shoveling] 13:59:03 sounds good to me 13:59:30 As in, good relative to before 14:00:44 I suppose a lot of popcornish stuff is potentially dangerous when berserked tho 14:04:35 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:15:24 -!- Mottikins_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:32 -!- mauris_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:24:22 -!- Nightbeer is now known as Stan_accounting 14:25:08 -!- hhkb has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:26:06 -!- Stan_accounting is now known as Steve_accounting 14:26:21 -!- Steve_accounting is now known as Accountings_Stev 14:26:58 -!- siepu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:28:24 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 14:28:35 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 14:34:25 -!- roushguy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:34:39 -!- Accountings_Stev is now known as AccountingSteve 14:47:17 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:47:49 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:53:12 -!- nicolae- has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:23 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:06:07 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:09:23 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:10:15 -!- Menche has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:14:18 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:19:24 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:02 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:46 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:34 -!- muravey_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:35:07 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 15:35:56 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 15:36:13 Deep troll glyphs sometimes are displayed with irrelevant colour 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9488 by hayenne 15:36:29 -!- debo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:39:41 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 15:58:12 -!- noppa354 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:01:08 -!- nono_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:10:16 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:47 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 16:14:31 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:16:54 -!- nicolae- has left ##crawl-dev 16:24:44 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 16:30:05 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 16:30:31 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 16:31:01 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:50:29 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 16:55:10 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:04:41 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.16-a0-4004-g8d6611c (34) 17:07:44 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:19:25 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:41 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:32:53 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:41:27 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.16-a0-4005-g3d13fd6: Improve Gell's Gravitas 10(7 hours ago, 3 files, 4+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3d13fd628b1f 17:45:06 -!- markgo` has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:48:46 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 17:49:30 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 17:50:04 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 17:50:48 -!- Brannock_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:52:15 -!- wmbt has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:53:06 -!- bulbazubr has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:53:42 -!- bulbazubr1 is now known as bulbazubr 18:00:11 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 18:01:02 -!- bitcoinbastard has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:01:55 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:34 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 18:12:03 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:17:58 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18:24 -!- PsyMar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:04 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:01 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:22:10 -!- siepu__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:22:53 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:23:44 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:24:43 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:25:39 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev 18:25:40 The build was fixed. (master - 3d13fd6 #1777 : Chris Campbell): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/50792334 18:25:40 -!- travis-ci has left ##crawl-dev 18:25:40 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:18 a true hero 18:27:43 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Client Quit] 18:30:59 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:31:26 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:32:58 -!- AccountingSteve is now known as StevesBarbarian 18:34:25 -!- a_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:49:19 -!- WereVolvo1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:19 -!- Guest36794 is now known as halberd 18:51:25 -!- halberd has quit [Changing host] 18:52:51 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:45 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:48 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:58:50 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:19 -!- Elynae has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:08:21 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:08:21 -!- Patashu has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:15:43 -!- surr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:16:15 -!- rgould has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:21 -!- Kintak has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:24:49 -!- rgould has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:24:59 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:25:01 -!- rast has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:14 &dump purplered 19:25:15 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/PurpleRed/PurpleRed.txt 19:25:52 -!- Zooty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:26:11 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:28:18 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 19:32:12 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 19:34:14 -!- NomadJim_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:53 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:38:56 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 19:40:06 -!- StevesBarbarian is now known as AccountingSteve 19:41:16 -!- bulbazubr has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:42:45 -!- Monkaria has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:47:53 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:52:44 -!- Ipsum has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55:30 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:56:56 -!- orneryostrich has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:28 -!- __miek has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:05:32 Hi Again! 20:05:58 This is Aarujn, the guy chatting about non-violence and Ely and etc. about a week ago. 20:06:33 (wi Lastly and gammafunk and dpeg) 20:07:01 What if pacify made monsters your friends, but also made you responsible for them? 20:07:46 This would help cap pac's usefulness and make it unspammable due to the logistics of maintaining your "Refugee Camp" of pacified monsters 20:08:02 (Just a thought -- will keep working on the problem) 20:08:29 Take Care! 20:08:38 do we really need another beogh? 20:08:40 (And thanks again for making a truly awesome game) 20:08:46 hm 20:08:59 Well, we do need a new Ely, folks have decided 20:09:49 Crate and others have tested Ely0.16, and say it's no longer overpowered. (I will defer to their tenure.) 20:10:29 So . . . that "fixed" Ely . . . from the point of view of people who didn't play Ely. :) 20:10:41 Thematically Ely was the "reduced body count God(dess) 20:10:45 !lg crate s=god 20:10:46 772 games for crate: 296x, 51x Elyvilon, 47x Xom, 41x Trog, 34x Lugonu, 32x Fedhas, 31x Okawaru, 30x Sif Muna, 29x Nemelex Xobeh, 27x Kikubaaqudgha, 24x Cheibriados, 24x Ashenzari, 23x Vehumet, 21x Makhleb, 17x Yredelemnul, 15x Jiyva, 14x The Shining One, 12x Zin, Ru, Dithmenos, Gozag, Qazlal 20:11:49 though crate does not play crawl for flavour, admittedly 20:12:02 Crate @Tavern: "a dramatic improvement from a design and enjoyability standpoint (and a much-deserved nerf in the power department)" 20:12:30 If he didn't like old-Ely because it was OP, why did he play Ely so much? ;) 20:12:38 But anyway, 20:12:49 iirc op wasn't his issue, boring was his issue 20:12:58 [listens] 20:13:14 well, boring is the major issue with op in a single-player game 20:14:18 Boring is solved by choosing another god, no? No one is *forced* to play a "boring" style based on god choice because there are (few) "sword-point" conversions (B only) 20:14:48 well, he obviously liked some parts of elyvilon design (as evidenced by playing it a lot) 20:14:50 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:15:04 so the fact that other parts play boringly becomes a frustrating 20:15:05 The question last time was: "How can we (continue to) support a 'lower-body-count' thematic playstyle?" 20:15:13 sure 20:15:13 yeah, it 20:15:47 yeah, it's hard since combat is the main focus of crawl and adding a system to majorly replace it is not easy design-wise 20:16:01 Granted people played Ely (DD-Ely) because of the OP-ness 20:16:16 But other people play(ed) Ely to reduce the carnage :) 20:16:43 I think Aspect #1 may (now) be fixed? 20:17:16 So, what can be done about Aspect #2 (more non-violent -ish play) ? 20:17:54 So here's me, right: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/aarujn.html 20:18:56 Play a variety of things. . . trying to explore all of Crawl. But Ely is (Was) my fav. Why? Because it felt better not to HAVE TO SLAUGHTER THEM ALL . . . :) 20:19:33 If you are asking "Do we need another Beogh?" . . . I would say: "Must ALL god be Trog?" 20:20:03 !lg aarujn s=god 20:20:04 123 games for aarujn: 54x, 14x Vehumet, 13x Elyvilon, 9x Zin, 8x Cheibriados, 6x Sif Muna, 4x The Shining One, 4x Ashenzari, 3x Okawaru, 3x Trog, 3x Ru, 2x Fedhas 20:20:35 !gamesby aarujn current trunk 20:20:36 aarujn (current trunk) has played 43 games, between 2014-06-12 14:29:30 and 2015-02-09 00:40:19, won 8 (18.6%), high score 8485664, total score 48260041, total turns 2118113, play-time/day 1:46:38, total time 17d+23:53:56. 20:22:51 what I meant by that is that managing your ever-growing pile of buddies is the most boring and time-consuming part of Beogh 20:22:59 [listens] 20:23:55 making *another* god that uses that mechanic seems like a bad idea, unless you can come up with a way to make it manageable without being horribly annoying and boring --- and in that case we should try it on Beogh first, because boy does it ever need an overhaul 20:24:05 hm 20:24:28 I had thought to use the "annoyingness" as a limiter on the number of pacifications. 20:25:01 But, I think I see your point -- Some people will subject themselves to the annoyingness if it optimizes play in some way. 20:25:11 Then they will complain that it's annoying :) 20:25:28 or they'll start using them as meat-shields and then whine about the piety loss :p 20:25:30 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:35 (crawl players are sometimes... special) 20:25:50 well, if you use refugees as meat shields you *should* lose Piety 20:25:59 or play Kiku or Mak or . . . something evil. 20:26:09 hm 20:26:10 yes, but people will do it anyway and then bitch about it 20:26:17 yea I see that now 20:26:19 we get all kinds around here 20:26:30 I like Crawl 20:26:36 I think you all have done amazing work 20:26:49 If there are annoying parts, I . . . play something else. 20:27:07 Crawl is rich enough that you can find amazing fun in many different niches 20:27:20 It's really quite amazing and awesome. 20:28:06 !won aarujn 20:28:07 aarujn has won 15 times in 123 games (12.20%): 1xDDFi 1xDEEE 1xFeTm 1xFoFi 1xGrWz 1xHEWz 1xHOHe 1xHaHu 1xKoVM 1xMfFi 1xMiFi 1xNaFi 1xSpEE 1xTeWz 1xTrEE 20:28:28 I have been trying things until I "win" with them, then . . . try something else. 20:28:53 I want(ed) to explore the beautiful variety Crawl offers! 20:29:23 All I was saying is that I will mourn the loss, or diminishment, of that variety. 20:29:30 esp. re: non-violence 20:30:10 The fact that Crawl has / had a *viable* "non-violent" / "reduced gore" option made it beautifully unique among games of its ilk 20:30:15 That was really special. 20:30:43 I don't see how Ely acted as that option at all...pacification is almost identical to killing the monster 20:30:51 NO! 20:30:56 it just doesn't show up in the morgue as a kill for some weird reason 20:31:01 In one case, there is blood on the floor. 20:31:13 In the other case, the monster walks out alive. 20:31:25 Now, you may say that it's all the same mechanics-wise. 20:31:42 pacification has the option of using the neutral monster to fight other monsters but that is not very good gameplay IMO 20:32:01 True 20:32:22 That was why I was thinking (above) that you need to be _responsible_ for your "refugees" in some way 20:32:33 Maybe you have to give them bread for their journey home? 20:32:47 Maybe you have to take care of them as allies (Beogh-ish-ly)? 20:33:09 Something thematically aligned with Ely's principles 20:33:27 "Go forth and aid the weak!" 20:33:41 so instead of pacification being like unresistible ensorcelled hibernation, it would be like unresistible enslavement? that doesn't sound like it would make it any more distinct, or interesting as a "playstyle" 20:33:49 -!- spacet_ has quit [Client Quit] 20:34:08 Enslavement again is not quite right, is it? 20:34:22 "Go forth and aid the weak!" != "Make slaves of the meek" 20:34:30 the design space for binary insta-kills is very small, and already has banishment and hexes 20:34:42 [listens] 20:35:43 so I would be very surprised if pacification in itself managed to be interesting if you keep it a binary instant kill, and so far your suggestions seem to be "keep it a binary instant kill, but change the cost of using it" 20:36:01 What about a Zin-like mechanic: You talk to them, and maybe they think this non-violence thing over. But if they don't like the idea they 'zerk on you and don't listen ever again? 20:36:29 "Go forth and aid the weak!" != "Make the hydra go away 'cause you are too much a coward to fight it" <---- also true :) 20:36:55 [thinking] 20:37:18 yeah, what you're describing is just a version of ensorcelled hibernation that berserks the monster if it fails... 20:37:18 What makes hexes and banishment "interesting" as a play style? 20:37:37 -!- spacet has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:37:44 I'm the wrong person to ask about that because IMO they already aren't interesting :P 20:37:49 ok 20:37:55 yeah I'm not a big hexer either 20:38:19 I guess maybe it's the stress / drama of "Will this one shot work?" ? 20:38:32 (although now wi Dith it's a two-shot) 20:38:39 the way pacification works is nearly identical to the way hexes work, it's just resisted based on HP instead of MR 20:38:41 -!- Pepe has quit [Quit: rebuttal] 20:38:44 yes 20:38:55 and it has the same result (if it fails nothing happens, if it succeeds it is effectively an instant kill) 20:39:08 How can it be changed so that it's more an act of mercy than a "kill shot" ? 20:39:33 or a "panic button" or a "spammable" 20:39:50 what would an "act of mercy" be in the context of crawl? 20:40:02 well, do you have to kill EVERY LAST orc? 20:40:11 ALL the geckos? 20:40:14 EVERY mouse? 20:40:17 :) 20:40:48 I would say "no..." 20:41:35 Maybe if something beats on you for 20 turns you can offer it's tired futile @$$ quarter and reprieve? 20:41:38 is there anything interesting about whether you kill trivial monsters or not? I submit that there is not 20:42:11 Theme 20:42:17 crawl is focused around whether the player survives encounters, whether a monster survives basically never makes a difference 20:42:17 Virtue 20:42:39 !tell nicolae- Pakellas's Overcharged Gadget Emporium 20:42:40 wheals: OK, I'll let nicolae- know. 20:42:59 oh. I don't care to discuss crawl's design outside of the context of the design goals enumerated in the manual. 20:43:08 uh 20:43:09 sorry for wasting your time 20:43:09 what? 20:44:32 I'm not following you, sorry? 20:44:39 section N of the crawl manual lists 4 major design goals and 4 minor design goals; things like supporting role-playing, or a story, don't appear there 20:44:59 so I do not consider them when thinking about crawl's design 20:45:13 -!- Weeksy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:45:27 Wait so "enjoyability" is not a consideration? 20:45:42 the point of the design goals is that adherence to them is the source of the game's enjoyability 20:45:42 wow 20:45:51 at least to its target audience 20:46:05 (or at least, that's what I'm pretty sure the point of it is...I can't think of any other point) 20:46:12 :) 20:46:20 Why do you play Crawl, if I can ask? 20:46:46 !tell nicolae- also, Pan turns some hatches into transits, so many levels already have >3 transits even outside of vaults 20:46:46 wheals: OK, I'll let nicolae- know. 20:46:51 I find the gameplay interesting and it has the best interface among roguelikes by an overwhelming margin 20:46:59 Cool 20:47:06 Yes the interface is great 20:47:13 And ever-improving! 20:47:14 (IMO) 20:47:29 I think 0.16 is the best yet, interface-wise 20:47:42 (IMO) 20:47:56 Can you elaborate on the other point? ("gameplay interesting") 20:47:59 side note: there's one exception to my previous statement which is that I do consider flavour/theme/whatever aspects if they have political implications, c.f. when I protested adding sexual assault to the game 20:48:16 whuuuu sexual assault what? huh? 20:49:02 there was a proposal to implement a god that gave you the ability to rape monsters 20:49:08 er why? 20:50:01 it's detailed in https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5383 if you're curious 20:50:02 [considers this] Hm. I guess things could be much worse than reduced-nonviolence-Ely. 20:51:28 anyway, regarding crawl's gameplay: while the balance is horrendous by any measure, it has the least grinding of pretty much any game with "RPG elements" that I've played, and the positioning tactics are pretty deep 20:51:29 One Eyed Jack seemed to sum it up well in that thread: "Ewwwwwwwwwwwww" 20:51:30 ww-keys activated 20:51:38 thanks sequell 20:52:02 yes positioning is very cool 20:52:24 Granted I am still learning, (newb in 0.14.x), but . . . I'm getting better! :) 20:54:08 OK 20:55:45 Looked up your manual reference: 20:55:50 Major design goals 20:55:51 challenging and random gameplay, with skill making a real difference 20:55:52 well, I'm not a developer and changes to crawl are frequently made that, to me, don't seem to fit with (and often outright contradict) the design goals, so I'm not saying you should give up, necessarily, just that I'm not personally concerned with theme 20:55:53 meaningful decisions (no no-brainers) 20:55:54 avoidance of grinding (no scumming) 20:55:56 gameplay supporting painless interface and newbie support 20:55:57 Minor design goals 20:55:59 clarity (playability without need for spoilers) 20:56:00 internal consistency 20:56:01 replayability (using branches, species, playing styles and gods) 20:56:02 proper use of out of depth monsters 20:57:24 "You may ponder about the wisdom of certain design decisions of Crawl" ;) <----- quote from N. Philosophy (pas de faq) 20:58:43 So if we feel about non-violence a bit like we feel about non-raping-ness (and some of us can code) . . . what could we do? 20:59:14 (Have been talking a lot in the chat boxes with folks on cao re: this topic) 20:59:23 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: Killed by a kitten] 20:59:54 tbh Im not sure there's a lot you can do to make crawl that much less violent. might be better off starting from scratch to make a puzzle / roguelike crossover 21:00:08 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:00:33 0.14 - 0.15 Ely basically was playable in "that way" 21:00:49 Removing all violence from crawl sounds very difficult to do, and there is a very big contextual difference between those two things 21:00:52 So . . . in a way, Crawl had basically already done it. Sorta. 21:01:16 "all violence" removed may be unattainable 21:01:34 but, probably, no one though a 1:08 RT win was attainable either ;) 21:01:45 (back in the day) 21:01:59 It's not necessarily a binary thing, right? 21:02:00 well yeah, you had the *option* to do fully pacifist runs, but I think the artistic implication of that in this particular game was pretty much moot 21:03:28 As an ideal to strive toward, it was present in 0.14-0.15 21:03:33 particularly since pacifying a monster was pretty much the same as killing it in gameplay terms...it's not like pacifist runs in most other games where you actually have to avoid all the enemies 21:03:53 -!- nicolae- has joined ##crawl-dev 21:03:55 hm 21:04:03 yes 21:04:03 nicolae-: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 21:04:06 oh, shit 21:04:07 !messages 21:04:07 (1/2) wheals said (21m 28s ago): Pakellas's Overcharged Gadget Emporium 21:04:13 !messages 21:04:13 (1/1) wheals said (17m 27s ago): also, Pan turns some hatches into transits, so many levels already have >3 transits even outside of vaults 21:04:34 does Pakellas overcharge for his gadgets 21:04:39 <_< 21:04:49 no, it was in reference to using vault syntax to stock a shop with wands charged over and above their max charges 21:04:56 ha 21:05:21 i'm turning into some kind of mad scientist of shop vaults 21:05:26 a lightning rod with more charges would be cool 21:05:28 mad merchant 21:05:44 I guess you'd want to make the fan thing actually useful first 21:11:35 minmay: wow koboldlord is even crazier than i realised 21:12:07 Hey look. I love Crawl. Love it. It's the best. I'm putting in the time to get better. (Compare my stats from 0.14 to 0.15 to 0.16a). I'm trying to understand the history and the culture. I guess my closing point would be to please (re-)allow "reduced body count" as a (possibly un-attainable) goal to strive for. (Like wi. 0.14 - 0.15 Ely) 21:12:17 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:12:56 It doesn't have to be perfect. 21:13:09 It doesn't have to be easy. 21:13:25 It doesn't have to be "fully pacific" 21:13:43 There just was that hope . . . 21:14:25 (in 0.14 - 0.15 Ely) . . . that you didn't have to "Just kill them all" . . . Please don't fully take that away from Crawl. 21:14:44 wheals: ??? did he say anything crazy in that thread? 21:14:45 Not all god(desse)s have to be Trog. 21:14:58 he was going on about rape or something 21:15:14 yeah because the OP was proposing adding rape to crawl... 21:15:15 Thanks for your time and thanks again for making the awesomeness that is Crawl. 21:15:34 uh 21:15:42 ok 21:16:13 hy-on-github: Crawl still doesn't require killing any monster, even to get all runes 21:18:39 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:46 -!- MaxFrosty is now known as MaxFrost 21:18:48 it's just incredibly unlikely :v 21:24:33 -!- Blazinghand_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:24:52 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 21:25:48 -!- ballingt has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:27:28 -!- Blazinghand__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:27:28 -!- Guest55855 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:27:53 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:28:00 -!- rast- is now known as rast 21:30:35 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:31:14 -!- markgo has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:38:13 -!- AccountingSteve is now known as Ladykiller69 21:40:04 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:35 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 21:46:17 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:47:57 -!- kroki has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:50:57 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:56:18 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:01:34 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:02:53 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:11:55 -!- motorbit has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:19:38 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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