00:03:29 RMSStatuette (L17 HOCK) (Lair:5) 00:04:09 !crashlog RMSStatuette 00:04:09 3. RMSStatuette, XL17 HOCK, T:29149 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/RMSStatuette/crash-RMSStatuette-20150123-060328.txt 00:04:28 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:08 %git 5a2f293 00:05:09 07doy02 * 0.16-a0-3743-g5a2f293: fix save compat break on character selection screen 10(26 hours ago, 2 files, 20+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5a2f293c067c 00:05:26 hm 00:05:43 oh my god what did he do 00:06:09 &rc RMSStatuette 00:06:11 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rcfiles/crawl-git/RMSStatuette.rc 00:06:33 Grunt: look at the bottom of the log in that crash 00:08:05 PleasingFungus: ahahahahahahaha, what have you done 00:08:25 I did not cap the number of languages you could stack together 00:08:39 -!- inspector071 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:08:53 including the same lang, of course 00:10:00 hrm 00:10:14 I wish I'd implemented customizable butt %s 00:10:15 !send PleasingFungus !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 00:10:15 Sending !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to PleasingFungus. 00:10:20 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.16-a0-3758-g7fc8210 (34) 00:10:24 butt:100 00:11:43 -!- simmarine__ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14:52 -!- simmarine_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:18 !!!:2 7 00:18:20 er 00:19:22 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 00:19:53 -!- jbenedetto has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:19:59 the next frontier: language modding... 00:20:06 !locate rmsstatuette 00:20:06 rmsstatuette was last seen on CAO (RMSStatuette, L17 HOCK of Xom). 00:26:36 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 34.0.5/20141126041045]] 00:46:00 -!- Sprort has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:50 -!- Rotatell has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:51:23 -!- rax has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:51:30 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 00:51:32 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:52:00 -!- Rotatell has joined ##crawl-dev 00:52:47 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 00:53:22 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:55:17 Your surroundings suddenly seem butt. 00:56:43 mad libs: crawl edition 00:57:30 You slash the butt ugly thing! 00:57:31 -!- Sharkman1231 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:57:42 ?/butt 00:57:43 Matching terms (3): butterfly, summon_butterflies, summon_butterfly; entries (65): !fight[1] | auxiliary_attacks[2] | bad_excuses[23] | ballistomycete[1] | ballistomycete[2] | book_of_beasts[1] | book_of_party_tricks[1] | borgnjor's_revivification[2] | box_of_beasts[2] | butterfly[2] | butterfly[3] | butterfly[5] | butterfly[6] | butterfly[7] | cacodemon[2] | choko[2] | chris[5] | clutterflies[1] ... 00:58:01 Things that are butt: 00:58:02 a butt; a robe 00:58:10 I need this in my crawl 00:58:11 A red butt seems to cover your vision as you go berserk! 00:58:18 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:59:39 so why exactly did butt get stacked? 00:59:55 fake_lang = grunt, butt 00:59:56 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:00:04 shouldn't it just have 1 butt each time? 01:02:24 or did have it stacked and then changed it? 01:02:27 *he 01:02:47 -!- TR_Muscateer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:05:19 -!- Siegurt has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:06:00 -!- Nstar has quit [Client Quit] 01:06:20 The barrage of butt hits something. 01:06:27 this is awesome 01:08:21 Evoking this partially-identified butt wasted a few charges. 01:08:29 the possibilities are endless 01:11:49 -!- zero_one has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:12:07 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:16:35 A killer bee comes into butt. 01:16:41 that's just wrong... 01:17:28 -!- marsbars has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:17:31 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 01:26:23 -!- DaneiTHREE has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:31:51 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 01:36:10 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:36:10 -!- Patashu has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:36:25 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:49:40 -!- mrscumbag1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:53:54 -!- link_108 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:55:15 -!- muravey has quit [Quit: Be back later ...] 01:55:43 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 01:56:19 -!- jark has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:00:42 -!- bonghitz_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:13:31 https://crawl.project357.org/static/dcss-web/index.htm 02:13:37 real quick first stab, any opinions? 02:13:51 the green of the primary colour should probably change, but i'm not sure to what 02:13:58 -!- simmarine__ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:14:52 anyway, the goal is to simplify radically (at the cost of making other things more complex) the experience for "ok what is this game, let me have a go at it" 02:15:48 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:16:29 most links that are on the real page now but now here would be inserted on a subpage instead 02:16:43 *but not here 02:19:30 I especially like the design of the Eldritch site, if you're looking for roguelikes with nice websites http://www.eldritchgame.com/ 02:21:11 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.16-a0-3758-g7fc8210 (34) 02:34:03 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 02:35:09 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:38:56 -!- kaas has quit [Client Quit] 02:39:28 chequers, I like the premise and I think that looks fine, especially for a real quick first stab 02:40:02 I am not really sure what color would be more fitting for crawl either 02:40:08 well, rather, fitting at all 02:42:10 -!- Hurricos has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:46:33 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 02:48:51 -!- JoshTriplett has quit [Changing host] 02:49:40 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:52:37 I like orange, but that's just me 02:53:03 -!- Hurricos has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:09 also you could ask some crawlers to do some art maybe? 02:53:50 good idea though 02:54:15 the wordpress could be a little more welcoming 02:57:57 -!- honeybadger has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:00:53 -!- Whistling_Bread has joined ##crawl-dev 03:09:32 -!- Whistling_Bread has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:19:08 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:27:30 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:27:46 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 03:28:08 -!- muravey has quit [Quit: Be back later ...] 03:28:36 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 03:32:55 -!- Hurricos has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:33:36 -!- muravey has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:52:15 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:56:05 -!- kilorith has quit [Client Quit] 03:58:14 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:05:30 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06:31 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 04:12:20 -!- PepeRC2 has quit [Quit: rebuttal] 04:26:32 -!- spacet_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:36:37 -!- dienosore has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:37:03 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:39:36 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:44:19 Elemental evocables use whole stack when you evoke it. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9429 by Ololoev 04:45:16 -!- ZRN has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:46:32 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 04:47:02 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 04:53:21 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:06:41 -!- Whistling_Bread has joined ##crawl-dev 05:11:39 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Quit: I like to rock] 05:14:02 -!- Hailley has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:16:14 -!- twb has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:17:57 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:20:38 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 05:21:01 -!- Basil is now known as Guest60215 05:28:52 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 05:33:11 -!- Voker57 has quit [] 05:33:34 -!- muravey has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:33:51 -!- Voker57 has quit [Changing host] 05:38:09 -!- theTower has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:46:17 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:49:44 -!- spacet has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:57:07 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:59:25 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:05:11 -!- Ketsa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:06:39 -!- G-Flex has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:06:58 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 06:17:09 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:23 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:21:14 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 06:21:28 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 06:21:29 -!- muravey has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:24:37 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 06:40:55 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 06:47:10 -!- scummos__ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 06:47:55 -!- Evablue has quit [Quit: Evablue] 06:50:19 -!- Meriados has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:53:40 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:54:42 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:55:53 -!- Jeffrey has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:56:22 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:03:26 -!- Lprsti99_______ has quit [] 07:04:19 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 07:05:46 -!- Lasty has quit [Client Quit] 07:06:13 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:06:50 Petrifying lichform petrifies instantly if ended 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9430 by runewalsh 07:08:00 -!- Brannock_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:21:37 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Client Quit] 07:25:40 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Client Quit] 07:26:02 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:29:46 -!- Kintak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:52 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Client Quit] 07:29:58 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:43:30 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:46:08 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:48:02 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:15 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:51:32 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 07:53:48 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:57:33 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:09:39 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:15:43 -!- Quazifuji has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:17:54 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:21 -!- muravey has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:23:13 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:42 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:34:09 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:38:54 -!- Yllodra has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:44:10 -!- Voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:45:23 -!- luukano has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:53:35 -!- surr has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:54:55 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 08:55:06 -!- booly-yam-5194__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:01 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 09:07:19 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:09:57 -!- abixa has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.1] 09:09:58 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:10:40 -!- Meriados has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:10:51 -!- causative has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:14:10 -!- trystero has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:16:54 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:18:29 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:49 -!- Whistling_Bread has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:20:04 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:22:17 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:22:47 -!- muravey has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:23:18 -!- UbAh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:40:24 -!- Finwe is now known as TEEKKARIBILEET 09:40:28 -!- belest has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:41:32 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 09:42:51 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:03 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 09:52:58 -!- mopl has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:53:46 -!- muravey has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:54:56 -!- radinms has quit [] 09:57:11 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:04 so if +twister is no longer being generated, why hasn't it been removed 10:00:51 that's more work 10:00:51 PleasingFungus: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 10:01:16 <|amethyst> I figured someone was going to make an unrand 10:04:10 -!- booly-yam-864 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:06:09 -!- booly-yam-8766 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:24 -!- Dunsworth has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 10:09:25 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:10:46 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:18:09 -!- Sczcya has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:11 -!- MgDark has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:29:43 -!- Kintak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:50 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 10:34:24 Lasty: ya, I only found that issue because I upgraded &^Ib to give info on artefact property distributions 10:34:32 *value distributions 10:34:57 having tools to introspect on the properties of the systems you build is so incredibly useful 10:34:59 I love it 10:42:34 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 10:43:01 -!- grisamentum has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:49:20 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:49:27 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 10:53:07 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:53:25 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:54:07 -!- Sczcya has left ##crawl-dev 10:57:50 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 11:02:17 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:09:03 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:09:58 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:27 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: FR: SNMP support in debug builds 11:10:47 ? 11:12:16 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: so you could use network management tools to inspect what's going on in crawl :) 11:13:19 hm 11:13:21 confusing 11:13:45 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:14 -!- Hurricos has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:18 what's the oid for number of kobold demonologists seen? >.> 11:17:16 -!- Whistling_Bread has joined ##crawl-dev 11:23:46 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.16-a0-3758-g7fc8210 (34) 11:24:43 -!- Njals has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:29:47 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:38:01 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:25 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 11:39:17 is rF+++ supposed to be a possible randart property 11:39:41 apparently. 11:40:02 Ring of the Camp {rF+++ rC- MR+ Dex+3} 11:41:12 lasty added that last night 11:41:25 along with stat+12 11:41:41 yes i'm not sure how that is a thing again 11:41:54 I am in a position of not arguing with anyone 11:42:08 I told him that other devs would object and left it at that 11:43:33 -!- muravey has quit [Quit: Be back later ...] 11:43:40 that seems questionable to me as well. i dont think its ever been possible to get +++ on a single item 11:43:50 it has not been (excepting skin of zhor) 11:43:56 to be fair to him, his argument is that rf+++ (or stat+12) takes up at least three 'good props' and is 'not as good as it looks', both of which are true 11:44:18 stat+12 both looks and is pretty absurd 11:44:19 -!- Hurricos has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:44:28 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 11:44:32 sorry the latter clarification was wrt rf+++ 11:46:24 how is stat+12 any more absurd than str+4 int+4 dex+4? 11:46:53 -!- booly-yam-6710 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:49:22 -!- Esox_ has quit [Client Quit] 11:49:47 well +12 int on a ~caster~ is probably a whole bunch more noticeable than +4/+4/+4, likewise dex on someone not casting spells with that depend a lot on power 11:50:01 s/with // 11:50:26 so only some chars should be allowed to get good stat bonuses? 11:51:19 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:51:43 I'm not sure how that follows 11:51:52 also since spellpower is stepped down to hell that doesn't seem like a good example to support your argument...at least str on melee damage is linear 11:51:54 -!- muravey has quit [Quit: Be back later ...] 11:52:28 PleasingFungus: what about the characters where int/dex are about equally good? surely an int+6 dex+6 item is as good for them as an int+12 item for a ~caster~ 11:53:16 I am not sure of that. 11:54:13 -!- renopt has quit [Changing host] 11:54:55 PleasingFungus: well think about it this way, are you more excited about reaching a multiple-of-3 XL on a ~caster~ than on a ~hybrid~ 11:54:59 PleasingFungus: I'm certainly not 11:55:10 I'm not really excited about either 11:56:19 Well the point is, my argument is simply that I straightforwardly *do not believe* that stat+12 is better than stat+6, stat+6 or str+4 int+4 dex+4 11:57:37 -!- Meriados has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:59:13 I can certainly think of characters where I would prefer the latter to the former 11:59:21 (and played many of them!) 12:01:12 so I do not think that allowing stat properties to stack makes randarts significantly stronger (obviously this depends on the non-stat properties too) 12:01:15 my vague feeling is that stat+12 is more 'overwhelming' than stat+4x3 or +6x2; it feels like your base stats are relatively irrelevant. keep in mind that I do not feel strongly enough about this to take action 12:01:54 that seems like an emotional argument since...all three of those are the same % of your total base stats 12:02:00 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:10 I was thinking more of the distribution of your base stats 12:02:23 which obviously isn't disturbed by +4x3 12:02:25 !learn set gammafunk[3] CeAM^Oka NaVM^Chei MfSk^Xom HuSu^Jiyva MiBe^Mak(15 rune) DEAs^Zin HOFE^Beogh 12:02:26 gammafunk[3/12]: CeAM^Oka NaVM^Chei MfSk^Xom HuSu^Jiyva MiBe^Mak(15 rune) DEAs^Zin HOFE^Beogh 12:02:26 your point is valid, tho 12:02:28 .gfnext 12:02:29 DEAs^Zin 12:02:35 -!- domiryuu has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:02:38 !hs gammafunk de 12:02:39 239. gammafunk the Convoker (L16 DEIE of Sif Muna), blasted by a tengu reaver (bolt of lightning) on Vaults:5 (vaults_vault) on 2013-12-02 05:06:46, with 124067 points after 17087 turns and 3:52:49. 12:02:43 sif 12:03:04 that was interesting because it was after only playing a few deie 12:03:07 hm, that is an angle I didn't consider; indeed stat+4 stat+4 stat+4 has a much smaller effect on the difference in your base stats from each other 12:03:21 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:49 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:59 personally I think it's cool when equipment changes your character more but that is also an emotional judgement :P 12:05:33 no that's reasonable 12:05:36 v0v 12:05:43 MarvinPA: as I intended it, +12 to a stat would take up between 4 and 6 good properties and also require absurd luck (1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/2 * 1/4 * 1/2) 12:05:44 yeah, didn't you say once that trog gifts pre-am were more interesting 12:05:57 I guess that's not quite the same thing as eqip changing your char more, but 12:05:57 i am ok with items that can change the game like that, especially if it makes you decide to go with some build you wouldn't normally have gone for 12:06:03 MarvinPA: PF boosted the amount you get per "good quality" slightly, so it's not quite as rare now 12:06:03 gammafunk: I did say that, yeah 12:06:09 (and still think it) 12:06:10 i'm more bothered by rF+++ because it's just a lot of a defense stat 12:06:19 and it's not really a game changer, its just "full resist on one item" 12:06:26 I agree that sif gifts are probably the best in crawl basically because they do that 12:06:32 although again not equipment 12:06:52 {rX+++} seems worse to me than {rX++ rY+} except in certain circumstances 12:06:57 i'm seeing a whole lot of +7 or more 12:06:59 overall this change reduces the average total value of stats on artefacts, tho 12:07:03 yeah it is worse, brannock 12:07:18 anyway first up i would like to remove +/- hp still, more than anything else 12:07:26 rX+ rY+ rZ+ has a better chance of giving you a resist you actually need 12:07:36 besides, 99% of the time only the first pip is really important 12:07:50 MarvinPA: because it's boring, or 12:07:57 Lasty_: what are you looking at precisely when balancing these randarts? Lists of generated items to see each property on each type? 12:08:03 overwhelmingly boring, yeah 12:08:06 !calc 2 * 2 * 2 * 3 * 2 * 4 * 2 12:08:06 aight 12:08:08 384 12:08:09 that's fine by me 12:08:27 i think it might be worth noting, +ac and +ev used to be able to spawn on any randart 12:08:37 and it was removed because it was boring how people would stack it 12:08:37 right, when this came up before elliptic compared +hp to those 12:08:58 also it makes faerie dragon armour a little less weird 12:09:05 its better nowadays, where you can still get it, but its restricted to jewellery and unrands 12:09:15 and i think you could see +hp the same way 12:09:16 O 12:09:21 I'm not wedded to +HP 12:09:26 FWIW, I should probably mention that my argument is also motivated by a desire to reduce fixity in randarts, which allowing stat+12 and rX+++ accomplishes 12:09:48 fixity? 12:09:54 one thing i saw recently is the change to rechargable evokables and stacking them 12:09:57 even I agree that +hp and meaningless stuff like rN- are crap properties though :P 12:10:03 what if instead of being evokable items, those powers were randart properties? 12:10:07 they could recharge as you wear the item 12:10:09 is faerie dragon armour the only unrand with rand properties? 12:10:18 and so you could still have multiple of them going, but at a cost of having to equip it 12:10:27 evilmike: I really want to give yesterday's change a while to shine before spitballing more wild changes 12:10:32 yeah sure 12:10:41 I think that allowing (rarely) rX+++ (or Stlth+++) is interesting (novelty, excitement) without being very good (3rd pip of resists adds almost nothing). Allowing it actually waters down the total quality of artefacts that generate. 12:11:30 is rX+++ exciting 12:11:33 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:11:41 it's more exciting than HP-9 12:11:45 well he's saying it "seems" exciting, I think 12:11:45 personally I rarely bother with >rX+ for ~anything 12:11:45 PleasingFungus: I guarantee you that many players will be excited to see it 12:11:49 yeah 12:11:57 OoFs are an exception if I happen to have two rings 12:11:57 Lasty_: true 12:12:10 I'm more concerned with how it interacts with rX- effects 12:12:13 which are more common now too, ofc 12:12:24 fwiw rX+++ is interesting to me if it spawns rN+++. rF or C doesn't seem exciting to me at triple pips but that's perhaps because I know I have reliable sources of the other two without having to resort to rings of positive or "warding 12:12:40 PleasingFungus: Does it interact badly? I thought your resistance would be the sum of your +res and -res affixes? 12:12:53 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:57 oh no, it does that 12:13:16 honestly the third + on rF and rC is pretty meaningful if you're actually taking fire/cold damage, it's just nobody (including me) actually bothers with it 12:13:20 but it does basically make levels of rX- irrelevant, which is quite useful 12:13:32 true, that is a use 12:14:01 PleasingFungus: just like when several of your other items have rX+? 12:14:11 though generating with rF+++ instead of rF+ is going to increase the odds of spawning negative affixes as well 12:14:22 without substantially increasing the value of the artefact in most cases 12:14:37 including other rX- effects 12:14:55 minmay: ya 12:15:28 Ditto stats -- if you actually get the +12 stat randart, it's got a substantially-higher risk of bad properties than +stat rings had before, on average 4x higher 12:15:43 also just to be clear, you do all realize that the difference between rF++ and rF+++ is either almost as big, or bigger, than the difference between rF+ and rF++, right (depending on whether you measure absolute or relative damage reduction) 12:16:14 ??resists 12:16:14 resistance[1/3]: Player: r{F,C,Elec,Pois}-: weapon brands: 200%, beams: 150%; r{F,C}+: 50%; r{F,C}++: 33%; r{F,C}+++: 20%; rN+: 50%; rN++: 25%; rN+++: 0%; rCorr: 50%; rPois+,rElec+: 33% 12:17:03 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.16-a0-3759-g445ef0b: Remove +-HP from randart gen 10(79 seconds ago, 1 file, 7+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=445ef0be2a89 12:17:06 true, though in most cases just cutting it by 50% gets it into a range where it's not particularly hard to manage. 12:17:23 minmay: the way that ac works means this is less true, I think 12:17:40 Brannock_: mace of variability also has random properties 12:17:42 well, just one now 12:17:43 you mean AC applying before resistances? 12:17:49 does it 12:17:51 yes 12:17:53 o 12:17:55 I withdraw 12:17:56 because that means nothing 12:17:57 lol 12:18:08 someday I may understand this game 12:18:27 (also if it applied after resistances it would generally make it "more true") 12:19:37 um. maybe. my brain is fried right now. 12:20:57 think of it this way, if you are playing sandman25crawl where all randomness is removed, and an orb of fire shoots 100 damage fireballs and you have 100 hp and 0 ac 12:21:10 with no rF it takes 1 fireball to die, with rF+ it takes 2 fireballs, with rF++ it takes 3 fireballs, with rF+++ it takes 5 12:21:43 MarvinPA: Try generating ~100 randarts and see what you think. I think you'll find that they're not too crazy -- though it's possible that 2 + random2(3) is the wrong value per stat increment. 12:21:55 Lasty_: so that's what you're doing! 12:22:00 so rF++ -> rF+++ is certainly useful if the rF++ hasn't already rendered the damage insignificant 12:22:11 gammafunk: for testing you mean? 12:22:13 yeah 12:23:18 Lasty_: you're just saying that because I changed it to that 12:23:27 jerk 12:24:18 PleasingFungus: haha, I do think it may be too high, allowing for +7 on just 2 stacks, which was into the range that I knew you and MarvinPA were worried about before. 12:24:33 yeah i'd already generated a bunch to look at 12:24:42 and +7 or more seems relatively common 12:24:47 But I'm not sure. I tend to think that +2-4 stats per good prop is fine, but I also thought up to +10 was fine, so . . . 12:25:43 gammafunk: that, and supplementing w/ &^Ib. &^Ib is a little too high level, tho, for a full understanding. I want to look at a big lump of generated artefacts and see if they feel rightish as well. 12:25:57 aren't the +7 randarts ones that would have had more props previously, though? 12:26:00 yes 12:26:01 is it feasible to make it give say, 1-3 but plus an extra one on the first pass so it's still always +2 or more? 12:26:07 -!- pikaro has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:26:09 fewer, better props seems like a good change to me rather than a bad one 12:26:14 Lasty_: yeah, I feel then it'd probably be good for objstat to make an artefact dump with columns for iteration, branch, level, then 12:26:20 ??longest randart 12:26:20 longest randart[1/1]: F - the ring of Serendipity (on tentacle) {Hunger +Blink +Rage +Lev rElec rF+ rC+ Str+2 Dex-2 Stlth++} 12:26:24 i wouldn't really miss these 12:26:25 MarvinPA: It'd be a bit ugly, but there might be a way to do it reasonably 12:26:36 minmay: agreed! 12:26:37 I might add some of what's in &^I to the fields on the branch-summary sheets though 12:26:57 rings of the octopus king already fill the niche as the Artifacts of Many Properties 12:26:58 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 12:27:08 MarvinPA: Could also do max(2, current+1-3) 12:27:22 might be able to do that in a cleanish way 12:27:48 kvaak, minmay: I think it's important that sometimes artefacts can spawn with a buttload of props, but that it's rare. 12:28:08 very rare. 12:28:46 well yeah, I was more talking about how there are quite a lot of randarts with like 5 properties none of which you'd ever care about 12:29:01 minmay: yeah, I get that, and we should definitely cut that down 12:29:22 1-3 extra properties is about the right range for every day use I think 12:30:29 looks like we're currently at an average of 3 properties per artefact 12:30:30 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 12:30:32 median is more interesting 12:30:45 What's median? 12:30:54 as in, what is the median in this case 12:30:59 not explain medians to me :p 12:31:15 we don't currently calculate it 12:31:21 oic 12:31:44 ah, will also add number of props to this table 12:31:59 that reminds me, did I already suggest not generating randart weapons/armour with crap enchantment 12:32:27 I don't remember you saying that 12:32:42 since it's kind of weird that a randart piece of jewellery is so much more likely to be useful than a randart weapon/armour, because it doesn't have enchantment 12:33:22 is that a bad thing? 12:33:40 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:33:50 well, negatively enchanted randart weapons are kind of silly i guess 12:34:09 wasn't there a plan for gluegod that allowed you to glue together bad items to form slightly less bad items at some point 12:34:13 minmay: the possibility of generating bad enchantment/good affixes to a degree that causes a dilemma of whether or not to wear the piece is good, and removing it outright would be a net loss, I think. That said, that's probably some way to generate less total garbage . . . 12:34:17 at least with armour it can have some stats to make up for it. but usually for a weapon, the enchantment is the main thing 12:34:30 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 12:34:34 kvaak: smithgod, who was abandoned when the dev vanished 12:34:35 unless you're sky, pretty much yeah 12:34:36 well 12:34:37 the contributor 12:34:43 -!- Monkaria has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:35:00 pubby is not gone, he watches over us all 12:35:05 Lasty_: I have literally never worn randart body armour with bad enchantment, and have worn aux armour maybe once 12:36:22 it would at least make more sense to give them the same cap on negative enchantment as non-randarts, I think 12:38:16 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:06 minmay: yeah, it's pretty rare that body armour w/ negative enchantment or a weapon with negative enchantment is worth using. Not impossible, but definitely rare. I think the changes I've pushed so far make it more likely, but I'm certainly open to further reform on the subject. W/ body armour and weapons, even a low enchantment is usually impossible for the properties to overcome, since the base enchantments are such a large percentage of the value o 12:40:34 I could see making the minimum enchantment for weapons/body armour be around +0 12:40:44 or at least reducing the odds of it going below 0 12:40:52 (neither of which this project has touched so far) 12:41:01 median # of props is also 3, btw; 2 good and 1 bad 12:41:36 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.16-a0-3760-g3ef0081: Calculate the median in &^Ib 10(23 seconds ago, 1 file, 25+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3ef0081deac7 12:41:46 PleasingFungus: if that's true, the 2 good had better be better than two average properties from oldartefacts, or else we nerfed artefacts pretty severely. 12:42:07 oh no 12:42:41 before the median was about 2 good properties 12:42:44 no bad 12:42:50 do you know that 12:42:55 how did you calculate the median 12:42:55 not with scientific rigor 12:42:58 ah 12:43:09 small-size sampling 12:43:29 It might have been 1 property 12:43:43 I am about to test. 12:43:44 but I can confidently say there were many fewer bad properties 12:43:44 is there any particular reason invis protects against ghost moth gaze but not basilisk 12:43:52 basilisk (06l) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 27-44 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Dam: 20 | cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 233 | Sp: petrify [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: reptile. 12:43:52 %??basilisk 12:43:59 no neither has SInv 12:44:14 ghost moth (06y) | Spd: 12 | HD: 13 | HP: 56-88 | AC/EV: 8/10 | Dam: 1802(drain stat), 1802(drain stat), 1204(strong poison:47-84) | fly | Res: 06magic(100), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 1699 | Sp: draining gaze [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: insect. 12:44:14 %??ghost moth 12:44:16 kvaak: I'd guess basilisk gaze is a beam and ghost moth is a smite; 12:44:26 oh, yeah, that's the reason 12:44:29 which would imply that the basilisk can "miss" more often and still hit you 12:44:30 ??grunt[hilarious 12:44:31 grunt[21/27]: HILARIOUSLY SPECIFIC SPECIAL CASES WHAT A WONDERFUL IDEA 12:44:34 i guess it would make more sense as a gaze though? 12:44:35 ^^^ that's why 12:44:35 good times 12:44:44 so basically one of them is a gaze and the other is not 12:44:47 you can be smitten while invisible 12:44:48 yes 12:44:48 but both are called gazes 12:44:49 because reasons 12:45:03 is basilisk's thing called a gaze? 12:45:05 well, smiting is actually targetted 12:45:07 PleasingFungus: but if there's any deviation in aim it's a complete miss 12:45:14 a gaze would be actually tied to vision 12:45:22 sure, but that does imply you can get ghost moth drained while invisible, just rarely 12:45:26 I don't know if that's true 12:45:27 you can't 12:45:29 I don't think code calls it a gaze, I'm just inferring from the D&D monster 12:45:30 I don't know why 12:45:37 kvaak: literally never? 12:45:39 That's messed up 12:46:08 literally never 12:46:34 yes, its attacks are explicitly tied to being able to see you 12:46:44 its the same with some eye monsters i think 12:46:46 I'm surrounded by ghost moths two-three squares deep while shouting and wearing cpa with 0 stealth 12:46:53 Lasty_: http://pastebin.com/bv5g6NaS if you were curious 12:46:57 they will not drain my mp 12:47:15 more bad props, better average ratio of good to bad props 12:47:25 don't ask me the moral 12:48:05 okay, my bad, it's called just petrify 12:48:11 but ingame "the basilisk gazes at you" 12:48:53 that's fair 12:50:12 ??fair 12:50:13 fair[1/3]: No, this game isn't fair. But it was your fault, anyway. 12:50:23 I don't think either monster's mechanics should be changed, and basilisks need to gaze, since they're basilisks; possibly ghost moths' draining effect could be rethemed? I have no idea what you'd retheme it to, but it's not like "a purple invisible moth staring at you" makes that much thematic sense to begin with. 12:51:27 i like the "you feel watched" thing ghost moths cause 12:51:55 I do like that but it doesn't make very much sense 12:51:59 yeah but nothing about the enemy makes sense :P 12:52:03 also it doesn't interrupt runrest for some reason (unrelated but it drives me nuts) 12:52:06 we could make them make more sense! 12:52:09 it's just a crazy moth that can do things like that. 12:52:14 i think the original idea is it's a space alien 12:52:51 space ghosts from space 12:53:12 considering spiders can launch gigantic, arcane balls of destruction at you I don't have a problem with that 12:53:15 i prefer it stays a gaze attack in any case, i think its good for invis to protect you from them. its a nice way to deal with their mp drain 12:53:23 kvaak: they're orbweaver spiders!!! 12:53:33 evilmike: I am not suggesting changing the mechanics at all 12:53:41 the mechanics are cool 12:53:52 yeah i know, but i think keeping the gaze flavour is best too 12:54:00 I just want to change it so "a beam attack" and "a weird smite-y attack" aren't both described in the exact same way 12:54:06 why do you want to keep the gaze flavour? 12:54:23 because it's the one attack type that is blocked by invis. smiting isn't 12:54:25 I don't like being watched. Makes me think the ghost moth's walls are filled with pictures of me showering or something. 12:54:41 -!- TEEKKARIBILEET is now known as Finwe 12:54:43 they are 12:54:51 basically, if it was a weird smite-y attack ,it would be a special one-off thing that's blocked by invisibility for some reason 12:54:57 it is 12:55:01 that's literally what it is 12:55:02 is this going to be a vault in the game now 12:55:11 do ghost moths have hands? 12:55:13 eye of draining (15G) | Spd: 5 | HD: 7 | HP: 29-50 | AC/EV: 3/1 | see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), asphyx, 12drown | XP: 124 | Sp: draining gaze [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: plant. 12:55:13 %??eye of draining 12:55:18 good sinv 12:55:19 golden eye (08G) | Spd: 13 | HD: 6 | HP: 7-17 | AC/EV: 0/20 | lev | Res: 13magic(immune), asphyx, 12drown | XP: 189 | Sp: confusion gaze [11!AM, 06!sil], blink [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: tiny | Int: plant. 12:55:19 %??golden eye 12:55:28 I think that one is a beam attack 12:55:32 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:32 oh, still? 12:55:33 I forget 12:55:44 i know they used to cast confusion spell, i thought that was fixed to be an actual eye attack 12:55:55 it's not, great orbs of eyes have beams 12:56:12 and shining eyes i guess 12:56:14 update: it's smitey 12:56:17 (golden eye's thing) 12:56:32 golden eyes won't confuse you while invis 12:56:37 <|amethyst> GOoE has beams because beholder eye stalks shoot beams 12:56:39 they will turn their gaze towards you though 12:56:41 they blink, tho. totally different from gazing!!! 12:57:03 clearly make ghost moths blink (do moths have eyelids) (probably not) 12:57:14 |amethyst: that and no one wants to deal with MR-bypassing paralysis on those things :P 12:57:44 rip giant eyeballs 12:58:03 giant eyeballs are far from dead 12:58:05 giant eyeball (16G) | Spd: 3 | HD: 3 | HP: 10-23 | AC/EV: 0/1 | lev | Res: 06magic(10), asphyx, 12drown | XP: 8 | Sp: paralysis gaze [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: plant. 12:58:05 %??giant eyeball 12:58:11 i think invisibility works against these guys too 12:58:18 they're in like 12:58:18 there's a fun depths vault where the stairs are surrounded by a bunch of eyes, including giant eyeballs 12:58:20 two vaults 12:58:23 and mnoleg's summons 12:58:29 and random panlord summons 12:58:33 ya 12:58:44 basically they're pining for the eyeball fjords 12:58:47 shining eye (13G) | Spd: 7 | HD: 10 | HP: 43-67 | AC/EV: 3/1 | see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), asphyx, 12drown | Vul: 11silver | XP: 543 | Sp: malmutate [06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: plant. 12:58:47 %??shining eye 12:58:54 sees invis, i wonder if you took that away if they could mutate you 12:59:06 i suppose not, since its actually the malmutate spell 12:59:08 and not a special thing 13:00:21 anyway if you want consistency just prevent basilisk from petrifying you while invisible 13:00:48 !source nth_element 13:00:49 Can't find nth_element. 13:00:53 where the heck s that 13:01:04 std 13:01:10 google "median algorithm c++" 13:01:13 ew 13:01:21 lol 13:04:37 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:05:20 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:06:58 -!- link_1081 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:07:35 PleasingFungus: hey, I actually correctly identified the median good/bad props in old arts. Now someone figure out the odds of me getting that right . . . :p 13:08:04 -!- link_108 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:08:24 but yeah, looks like the main effect of the changes in terms of good/bad props is to increase the total props slightly and make it more likely that one of those props will be bad. 13:09:22 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:09:28 !tell thetower currently watching a plutonium sword wielder wandering through depths, followed by a pack of friendly giant mites 13:09:28 PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let thetower know. 13:11:04 the mites on the floor suddenly stop moving! 13:15:17 Lasty: X - the +13 crystal plate armour of the Forgotten Beggars {-Cast rCorr Int+4 13:15:18 Dex+2} 13:15:28 -cast!!!! 13:15:55 I think the beggars are forgotten because you're walking around in a suit of priceless crystal, now. it's a tragedy 13:16:34 also g - 1 gold the cursed -3 scale mail of Gejasegi {Str+3} 13:16:52 see 13:16:54