00:01:29 Stable (0.15) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15.0-23-gc2b521c 00:04:57 -!- Nightbeer is now known as Ladykiller69 00:06:13 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:16 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.16-a0-341-gb66f077 (34) 00:08:21 -!- vfoley_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:08:50 -!- Pratfall has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:11:06 -!- ZanniqlcKzxkq has joined ##crawl-dev 00:11:12 -!- Zannick has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:11:22 -!- ZanniqlcKzxkq is now known as Zannick 00:14:52 -!- svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:29 Stable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.15.0-23-gc2b521c (34) 00:25:05 elliptic: species / background / weapon don't seem to play nice with Lua 00:25:06 -!- Brannock has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:19 I need to go to sleep but perhaps you're interested in finding out more 00:26:25 elliptic: http://sprunge.us/gbbY for example (guess the outcome) 00:29:42 -!- Kramin has joined ##crawl-dev 00:29:50 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 00:31:54 -!- Kramin has left ##crawl-dev 00:32:03 options_guide (last paragraphs) say it can't be done, so crawl would need a patch 00:32:48 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 00:33:27 -!- Kramin has joined ##crawl-dev 00:33:34 %git c01a1eb 00:33:34 07reaverb02 * 0.16-a0-339-gc01a1eb: Fix Dith not actually increasing player stealth 10(15 hours ago, 1 file, 5+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c01a1ebe36e2 00:33:58 I guessing 0.15 will be updated with this too? 00:37:52 nice fix 00:38:28 lol, yeah 00:38:51 actually technically he did double your stealth if you had exactly max piety I think 00:39:21 oh that explains why it did seem like he was working for me in zot5 with medium stealth 00:39:49 yeah 00:40:02 I think I noticed my stealth sometimes being uncanny 00:40:39 yeah, I had it change from uncanny to something much less without an obvious explanation, but I thought maybe I had been using a dex ring 00:41:03 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:47:55 -!- Quazifuji has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:51:12 If you have exactly 200 then the variable is 2 yeah. 00:51:55 hm 00:53:07 http://sprunge.us/HhhB this doesn't seem to work - the god conduct props don't seem to be stored/retrieved (?) properly. seems unpredictable when/which appear - often a subset are missing. uninitialized variables...? I'm having a hard time diagnosing it 00:55:52 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:57:48 -!- Kramin has left ##crawl-dev 00:57:54 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 01:00:56 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.16-a0-341-gb66f077 01:01:24 -!- read has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:52 -!- read has joined ##crawl-dev 01:03:33 -!- Voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:04:52 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:08:05 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 35.0a1/20140905030206]] 01:09:40 -!- Earlo has quit [Client Quit] 01:26:09 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 01:37:53 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:53:03 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:56:22 -!- Bcadren has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:58:02 -!- eb_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:00:38 -!- croikle has quit [Quit: croikle] 02:01:03 -!- Stelpa has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:01:13 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:04:55 -!- Siegurt has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:06:35 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:06:36 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 02:07:14 -!- Palyth has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:12:50 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:54 Stable (0.15) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.15.0-23-gc2b521c 02:20:03 -!- dreamaddict has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:20:52 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 02:25:15 -!- kait has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25:24 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 02:28:34 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:28:50 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.16-a0-341-gb66f077 (34) 02:30:22 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 02:33:04 -!- hauzer has quit [Client Quit] 02:33:47 -!- Mandevil_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:40:34 what about taking weapon enchantments business away from scrolls and implement a whole new resource? 02:40:56 !tell dpeg what about taking weapon enchantments business away from scrolls and implement a whole new resource? 02:40:56 Napkin: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 02:42:24 -!- xFleury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0/20140825202822]] 02:43:37 Hmm. Apparently auto-targeting doesn't see reaching through statues, even though you can do that 02:48:01 Napkin: what sort of resource 02:54:52 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 03:00:35 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:04:38 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:08:50 -!- giganticus has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:08:57 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:09:08 -!- vfoley_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:28:21 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:57 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:34:18 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:42 Basil: no idea - maybe jewellery stones? something separate 03:37:45 could be even further enhanced and maybe include branding or more 03:39:05 as a separate resource the amount doesn't relate to scrolls anymore - so you could require 2 stones to go +1 -> +2, then 3 stones to go from +3 -> +4.. or any other formular 03:39:40 Are they consumable or what? 03:40:08 just an idea.. 03:41:16 Napkin: sounds good to me 03:42:04 triangular numbers are nice too 03:42:04 Napkin: I'm not seeing what it's supposed to do 03:42:14 or how it really works even 03:42:44 a suggestion about how to change current enchant weapon scrolls, which was emailed about on our list 03:42:54 Oh right 03:42:58 that's a thing 03:44:20 there is a discussion about how to change them - but maybe dropping them and replacing them with something else might also be a cool way with more opportunities for new features 03:46:00 -!- Tedronai has joined ##crawl-dev 03:49:58 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 03:53:19 Napkin: Is there anywhere else this is mentioned, because I'm not seeing that concept in crd 03:53:45 specifically, "your concept" 03:53:59 -!- Tolias has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:55:39 -!- gigantic_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:58 no, it's not mentioned anywhere... but it came to my mind when i read the emails in the morning ;) so i mentioned it here and !told dpeg 03:57:32 do you like the idea? 04:02:48 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 04:05:47 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:08:16 Napkin: The only thing I know about them is that they're not scrolls 04:08:47 but what you mention of them sounds like it could be implemented fairly easily as a scroll unless I'm missing something 04:15:06 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:15:23 -!- Enish has quit [Client Quit] 04:16:26 as a scroll they are too inflexible 04:16:52 you can't change the amount to show up in a game without changing all other scrolls 04:21:12 Napkin: is it impossible to alter the scroll generation rate 04:22:02 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:26:59 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:34:45 -!- Kramin has joined ##crawl-dev 04:35:41 -!- Kramin has left ##crawl-dev 04:38:05 -!- crate has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:48:16 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:57:28 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:04 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:16:48 -!- tabstorm has joined ##crawl-dev 05:20:44 -!- Stoats has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 05:24:37 -!- qoala has quit [Quit: Abscond!] 05:37:38 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:46:24 -!- eb_ has quit [] 05:47:19 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 05:48:01 -!- Pratfall has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:48:30 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:48:33 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:52:17 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:52:18 -!- sillyteengirl has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:54:14 -!- ebarrett has joined ##crawl-dev 05:56:02 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:59:14 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:03:17 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:03:51 -!- ebarrett has joined ##crawl-dev 06:05:10 -!- xFleury has joined ##crawl-dev 06:05:17 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:05:54 Is it intentional that shadow creatures can give you OoF while under Dithmenos? 06:06:59 ??c-r-d 06:06:59 c-r-d[1/2]: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.games.roguelike.crawl.devel 06:07:05 ??c-r-d [2] 06:07:05 c-r-d[2/2]: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crawl-ref-discuss 06:11:39 -!- grit has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:14:19 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:15:52 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 06:17:34 -!- Voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:17:34 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:45 -!- ebarrett has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:19:46 -!- eb_mobile has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:20 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:25:39 -!- svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:25:39 -!- [1]svendre is now known as svendre 06:28:14 -!- excalibur03 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:32:22 -!- ___miek has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:35:17 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:17 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:35:37 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:37:31 -!- ebarrett has joined ##crawl-dev 06:38:44 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:40:10 -!- OCTOTROG has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:41:14 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:44:46 -!- eb_mobile has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:02 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:45:15 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:54:41 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 06:56:44 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 06:57:33 -!- svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:57:34 -!- [1]svendre is now known as svendre 07:00:25 -!- giganticus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:46 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:04:03 !nchoice 07:04:06 !nchoice opsk 07:04:07 DDSu: 0 wins || Vidiiot: CLAN, L16 Fetichist of Makhleb || MrPlanck: CSZO, L13 Severer of Makhleb || Vactor: CAO, L9 Covered of Makhleb || DrKe: CSZO, L1 Caller of No God 07:04:11 OpSk: 2 wins || qoala: CAO, L15 Nimble of Ashenzari || MorganLeah: CBRO, L10 Carver of Okawaru || BirdoPrey: CSZO, L1 Charmwright of No God 07:05:21 "Caller of No God" ... so deep 07:05:21 dpeg: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 07:06:52 -!- vfoley_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:07:24 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:07:54 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 07:11:21 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:13:40 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:49 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:16:59 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:31 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:19:19 -!- rphillips has quit [] 07:20:39 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:22:45 oops this wasn't my sequell pm tag 07:27:02 !messages 07:27:02 (1/4) bh said (7w 2d 7h 47m 52s ago): How would you envision different-abyss-level-banishment working? how hard you get whacked with banishment? how deep you are in the dungeon? 07:27:13 !messages 07:27:14 (1/3) bh said (7w 2d 7h 47m 53s ago): Yeah, adding more downstairs to the abyss is easy 07:27:16 !messages 07:27:17 (1/2) potatolizard said (5d 18h 28m 2s ago): !lm perunasaurus grhe xl=27 1 -tv:T74199 07:28:00 !lm perunasaurus grhe xl=27 1 -tv:T74199 07:28:01 1/15. perunasaurus, XL27 GrHe, T:73684 (milestone) requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 07:28:14 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:28:21 -!- pentax has quit [Quit: ヒーロー見参！] 07:29:27 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 07:30:23 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 07:30:40 !tell potatolizard Many thanks for almost-ghostkill link :) 07:30:40 dpeg: OK, I'll let potatolizard know. 07:30:50 !messages 07:30:50 (1/1) Napkin said (4h 49m 47s ago): what about taking weapon enchantments business away from scrolls and implement a whole new resource? 07:31:24 Napkin: Yes, that's the matter of distinguishing tactical and strategical items. There are thoughts about this, but I wouldn't want to do both at once. 07:31:54 -!- tcjsavannah_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:31:55 -!- Nabalzbhf2 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:32:29 !tell bh I will bring up guided banishment for 0.16. And yes, the parameter would be either absdepth, or source HD or player XL. I need to look more closely at banishment statistics to compare. 07:32:29 dpeg: OK, I'll let bh know. 07:35:12 -!- Nabalzbhf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:40:23 -!- tkappleton has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:43:54 -!- ebarrett has joined ##crawl-dev 07:50:57 -!- xFleury has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:51:27 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:04:22 -!- Fenri has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:04:46 -!- guacamole has quit [Client Quit] 08:05:23 -!- Nstar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:08:56 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:11:51 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:14:58 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 08:16:25 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:20:51 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:45 -!- svendre has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:02 -!- [1]svendre is now known as svendre 08:25:49 -!- ldf has joined ##crawl-dev 08:33:47 -!- radinms has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 08:42:30 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 08:46:16 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59:12 -!- debo has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:00:00 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:01:51 -!- Stoats has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 09:05:49 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:06 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:43 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:07:36 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 09:08:52 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:10:48 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 09:22:17 -!- CatPlusPlus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:22:58 -!- ystael has quit [Client Quit] 09:34:25 -!- negatendo has quit [Quit: poop] 09:37:10 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 09:39:30 -!- vfoley_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:41:12 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:50 -!- bhaak is now known as Cartman 09:46:04 -!- Cartman is now known as bhaak 09:48:09 -!- siepu has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:52:01 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:53:23 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:55:56 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:31 -!- lrvs has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:06:25 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:08:47 PleasingFungus: huh! 10:08:53 ? 10:09:16 -!- negatendo has quit [Quit: poop] 10:09:39 a mistranslation, German "Huh" = English "Boo" 10:09:46 o 10:09:56 ...boo, like a spooky ghost? 10:10:03 PleasingFungus: yes, who scares someone 10:10:09 seems like I am not a spooky ghost 10:10:12 dang 10:10:19 germany has weird ghosts. (no offense!) 10:10:33 our cellars are full of 'em 10:10:52 PleasingFungus: made your peace with ?EW again? 10:10:59 ? 10:11:08 am I a ?EW Enemy? 10:11:15 yesterday was so tense here at ##crawl-dev 10:11:20 o 10:12:20 PleasingFungus: do you have more pending wrath commits? 10:12:38 pending wrath commits! 10:13:25 No, I have some stuff sitting in branches to refactor god wrath & describe them (that will be pushed when I get back from vacation after the tournament is over), but no angry commits or anything like that. 10:13:33 I hope the porridge changes didn't offend anyone. 10:13:44 of course not... how could they? 10:13:49 they make perfect sense 10:14:18 porridge is already offensive in itself 10:14:21 dang!!! 10:15:25 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:15:42 Asking about wrath because I have Lugonu in mind. Will try to get support in three stages: (1) all weapon brands on monsters (so espcially distortion) are announced, a player buff; (2) banishment sends players to Abyss levels depending on something, not always to Abyss:1, a player nerf; (3) replace Lugonu corpse sacrifice with altar desecreation, this is where better wrath description interface comes in :) 10:16:03 * dpeg would do a lot to get players desecrating altars in the name of Lugonu 10:17:45 -!- Nabalzbhf2 is now known as nabalzbhf 10:17:49 ya, we talked about this before 10:18:19 -!- nabalzbhf is now known as Nabalzbhf 10:18:22 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Exit Stage Left] 10:19:15 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:19:24 my only concern is that it'll be a net player buff, and that the player winrate has been rising alarmingly since 0.14. we can tweak other knobs to fix that, tho. (like the centaur buff knob!) 10:19:29 banishment could just send players to a random abyss level 10:19:30 ("centaur buff knob" is a very strange phrase!) 10:20:44 doy: I don't think we actually want banishment to be more lethal early on..... 10:20:47 i'm kinda curious how many other monsters were affected by the centaur nerf 10:21:05 imho fix fsim to find out :) 10:21:15 crash once again and no log 10:21:18 -!- svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:21:36 doy: the point of banishment change is that early banishment and Abyss:1 are a good story (imo), but late banishment is lackluster -- it wouldn't be if Elf:3 elves could send you deeper, to Abyss:3, say. 10:21:59 !lg * s=cv cv!~- / ckiller=centaur 10:22:02 36740/2024999 games for * (cv!~-): 5376/215120x 0.11 [2.50%], 5181/242578x 0.10 [2.14%], 3857/190444x 0.9 [2.03%], 3234/227786x 0.5 [1.42%], 3118/179656x 0.7 [1.74%], 2748/144565x 0.4 [1.90%], 2566/144721x 0.8 [1.77%], 2108/138546x 0.13 [1.52%], 2008/136865x 0.14 [1.47%], 2005/111897x 0.12 [1.79%], 1477/105430x 0.6 [1.40%], 1273/84396x 0.3 [1.51%], 791/42390x 0.2 [1.87%], 539/17864x 0.1 [3.02%], 4... 10:22:18 !lg * s=cv cv!~- / ckiller=centaur o=-% 10:22:22 36740/2025001 games for * (cv!~-): 459/42743x 0.15 [1.07%], 1477/105430x 0.6 [1.40%], 3234/227786x 0.5 [1.42%], 2008/136865x 0.14 [1.47%], 1273/84396x 0.3 [1.51%], 2108/138546x 0.13 [1.52%], 3118/179656x 0.7 [1.74%], 2566/144721x 0.8 [1.77%], 2005/111897x 0.12 [1.79%], 791/42390x 0.2 [1.87%], 2748/144565x 0.4 [1.90%], 3857/190444x 0.9 [2.03%], 5181/242578x 0.10 [2.14%], 5376/215120x 0.11 [2.50%], ... 10:22:31 !lg * s=cv cv!~- / ckiller=centaur_warrior o=-% 10:22:34 3574/2025002 games for * (cv!~-): 19/42744x 0.15 [0.04%], 108/105430x 0.6 [0.10%], 268/227786x 0.5 [0.12%], 56/42390x 0.2 [0.13%], 249/179656x 0.7 [0.14%], 123/84396x 0.3 [0.15%], 294/190444x 0.9 [0.15%], 231/144721x 0.8 [0.16%], 240/144565x 0.4 [0.17%], 412/242578x 0.10 [0.17%], 31/17864x 0.1 [0.17%], 493/215120x 0.11 [0.23%], 318/136865x 0.14 [0.23%], 381/138546x 0.13 [0.27%], 351/111897x 0.12 [... 10:22:46 !lg * s=cv cv!~- / ckiller=yaktaur o=-% 10:22:49 397/2025002 games for * (cv!~-): 2/42744x 0.15 [0.00%], 13/105430x 0.6 [0.01%], 27/179656x 0.7 [0.02%], 36/227786x 0.5 [0.02%], 35/215120x 0.11 [0.02%], 14/84396x 0.3 [0.02%], 25/144565x 0.4 [0.02%], 42/242578x 0.10 [0.02%], 34/190444x 0.9 [0.02%], 9/42390x 0.2 [0.02%], 32/144721x 0.8 [0.02%], 37/138546x 0.13 [0.03%], 37/111897x 0.12 [0.03%], 6/17864x 0.1 [0.03%], 48/136865x 0.14 [0.04%] 10:23:01 !lg * s=cv cv!~- / ckiller=yaktaur_captain o=-% 10:23:04 1088/2025003 games for * (cv!~-): 6/42745x 0.15 [0.01%], 14/42390x 0.2 [0.03%], 55/136865x 0.14 [0.04%], 96/227786x 0.5 [0.04%], 39/84396x 0.3 [0.05%], 85/179656x 0.7 [0.05%], 54/105430x 0.6 [0.05%], 99/190444x 0.9 [0.05%], 81/144565x 0.4 [0.06%], 142/242578x 0.10 [0.06%], 68/111897x 0.12 [0.06%], 138/215120x 0.11 [0.06%], 12/17864x 0.1 [0.07%], 97/138546x 0.13 [0.07%], 102/144721x 0.8 [0.07%] 10:23:24 i think a bunch more things than centaurs probably need tweaking 10:23:38 I wonder if we could tweak monster missile damage math generally 10:23:41 since that's what I broke 10:23:46 yeah, that might be a better idea 10:24:06 (and then revert the tweaks I made to specific monsters) 10:24:40 depends if we can do that in a way that doesn't make the code even more hideous/terrible/unmaintainable than usual, of course. 10:25:00 shrug, what's one more hack 10:25:02 (: 10:25:04 -!- Blakmane has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:25:12 nooooo 10:25:16 :( 10:25:19 -!- Nabalzbhf is now known as Nabazlbhf2 10:25:19 -!- Nabazlbhf2 is now known as Nabazlbhf 10:25:19 -!- Nabazlbhf is now known as Nabalzbh 10:25:27 -!- Nabalzbh has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:25:43 a frenzy of name changes, and then a disconnect. rip nabalguy 10:25:46 -!- Nabalzbhf has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27:44 -!- velyks has left ##crawl-dev 10:29:57 -!- Kintak has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:31:21 -!- fridurmus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31:57 https://github.com/dplusplus/patched-dcss-webtile/commits/master the japanese high-score list patch arrives! 10:32:01 !tell edlothiol https://github.com/dplusplus/patched-dcss-webtile/commits/master 10:32:02 PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let edlothiol know. 10:32:17 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:32:31 " And, I tried to disclose metafiles(milestones, logfiles, or so). Please wait few days." 10:32:46 nice 10:32:53 how big is the japanese server? 10:33:21 oh, dplusplus, I know that guy 10:33:27 currently looks to have a cbro-level playerbase, but idk what time it is in japan 10:33:33 could be way off-peak 10:34:09 12:30am in japan at the moment 10:34:32 ideal gaming time!!! 10:35:09 We had less than 30 survey participants from Japan. 10:35:32 that might just be language barriers/lack of community interaction 10:35:37 yes 10:35:39 you'd expect to have a lower proportion of respondents than - yes, what doy said 10:35:45 yes 10:36:01 they are quite an reclusive bunch of people 10:36:06 that makes me even more curious how big Crawl (or other roguelikes) are in Japan 10:36:22 dpeg: yeah, that's why i'm curious about how many players they have 10:36:22 they are big in japan 10:36:27 I mean, our first generation of tiles came almost exclusively from there. 10:36:39 there's Japanese translations of NetHack and UnNetHack 10:36:51 and most of the >16x16 tiles for Slash'EM come from Japan, too 10:37:21 We should get them into the 0.16 tournament! :) 10:37:30 dpeg: that's the goal 10:37:31 also of sporkhack and slashem 10:37:32 (: 10:37:39 %git :/porridge 10:37:47 07MarvinPA02 * 0.15-a0-716-gfc1b9ff: Give 4 potions of blood to carnivorous players with potion petition 10(4 months ago, 1 file, 11+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fc1b9ffd4a0b 10:37:58 doy: naming next release some permutation of "banzai", "hiraku" and "harakiri" should do the trick 10:37:59 %git :/[Pp]orr 10:37:59 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.16-a0-340-g25d4a4e: Make !porr give exactly 6000 nutrition 10(18 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=25d4a4e9bffb 10:38:01 (attention: joke) 10:38:17 Attention: I Am A Boozer. Banzai! Banzai! 10:38:41 I Am a Snoozer. Ikebana! 10:38:49 haha 10:43:51 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:45 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:47:55 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:48:51 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:48:58 -!- ebarrett has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:23 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:52:13 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:52:48 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 35.0a1/20140905030206]] 10:52:49 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:57:36 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:03:53 -!- ebarrett has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:37 -!- hauzer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:06:43 -!- serious has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:08:06 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:08:07 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:08:50 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:20 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:11:51 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:25 -!- fridurmus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:16:29 -!- ebarrett has joined ##crawl-dev 11:16:30 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:16:47 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:47 -!- bonghitz_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:18:57 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:23:12 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:23:53 -!- agentgt has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 11:24:08 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:25:56 -!- mopl has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:29:00 -!- ebarrett has joined ##crawl-dev 11:29:07 -!- lgft has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:31:03 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 11:31:14 -!- eb_mobile has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:41 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:35:45 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:35:53 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:36:02 -!- Stoats has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 11:39:06 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:39:24 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:46:39 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:47:07 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 11:48:21 -!- tkappleton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:49:45 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Exit Stage Left] 11:50:06 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:53 -!- zerkmund has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:57:15 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:15 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:07 -!- ebarrett has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:47 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:02:53 -!- stanzill has quit [Quit: on y va] 12:04:51 -!- negatendo has quit [Quit: poop] 12:05:29 -!- ebarrett has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:07:00 -!- ebarrett has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:35 -!- lrvs has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:08:43 -!- Pluie has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:30 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.16-a0-341-gb66f077 (34) 12:13:44 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:53 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:29:57 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 12:36:21 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:38:36 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:09 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:41:15 -!- ebarrett has joined ##crawl-dev 12:43:32 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 12:48:33 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:49:32 -!- yxhuvvd has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:29 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:16 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:15 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:56:17 -!- rast- is now known as rast 12:57:48 03Grunt02 07* 0.16-a0-342-g8626ab3: argh no gratuitous floating point please 10(51 seconds ago, 1 file, 13+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8626ab321d2b 13:01:48 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:33 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 13:09:24 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:12:49 Grunt: that doesn't have massive rounding errors? or is stealth such a big number that that doesn't matter? 13:13:26 ..nevermind, stealth * piety generally is 13:14:34 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:15:06 -!- Voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:16:25 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:18:40 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:28:16 03doy02 07* 0.16-a0-343-gabea0e8: simplify 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=abea0e8f4a96 13:29:45 I figured someone would do that <_< 13:31:53 it took me a good minute or two to figure out the logic of that 13:32:00 so i figured i'd save other people the trouble 13:32:02 (: 13:33:04 wait 13:33:11 being a bugfix, is that going into 0.15? 13:33:26 well, this is code cleanup 13:33:30 It will, once a few more eyes have had their go at this <_< 13:33:34 ha 13:33:40 I am very tempted to add my own refactoring 13:33:55 also, it seems odd that yred's umbra stealth bonus scales with piety 13:34:28 (the previous fix, not necessarily all these cleanups) 13:34:37 yes, I assumed it already had; if it hasn't, it should 13:34:42 rchandra: the original fix is already in 0.15 13:34:49 -!- Blomdor has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:34:51 oh, good 13:35:12 -!- Voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:35:54 PleasingFungus: maybe yred's should be like the ring of shadows 13:35:56 3Grunt * 160.16-a0-345-gdeadbee: Refactor the refactoring of the simplification. 10(in the future, 1 file 5+ 15-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=deadbeef 13:36:00 <_< 13:36:07 good timestamp 13:36:07 >_> 13:36:18 imho commit hash is better 13:36:28 oh nice 13:36:29 I find it really funny how snippets of the philosophy section are cited on GDD as if they were written on a stone tablet :) 13:37:12 And lo, the Ploog did decree... 13:37:14 <_< 13:37:45 (or possibly the Shaligram, or the Henzell) 13:37:50 Grunt: feels a bit like it :) This is not some sacred scroll but I better not tell the players. 13:38:04 if we can't trust the philosophy sections, what *can* we trust??? 13:38:14 -!- Miauw has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:38:26 1learn add philosophy This is not some sacred scroll but I better not tell the players. 13:38:28 PleasingFungus: NOTHING 13:39:02 !!!! 13:39:03 If Crawl was more popular, then one could reap some political dividend from players' faith. 13:41:03 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 13:41:27 f - Ruin Crawl Hunger, Piety 0% 13:42:20 dpeg's secret plan revealed....... 13:44:57 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:46:19 dpeg/Xom 2016 13:48:15 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:22 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:54:28 In Xom we trust: the Politician of Death 13:54:30 mumra: hi! 13:54:42 hey ;) 13:54:58 mumra: they have a new version and a tournament! 13:55:07 mumra knows this already! 13:55:17 dpeg: yeah saw it the other day 13:55:23 didn't get chance to play yet tho 13:55:29 !lg mumra 13:55:29 418. mumra the Conjurer (L11 HECj of Qazlal), blasted by a fire drake (blast of flame) on Lair:1 on 2014-05-14 22:52:58, with 9807 points after 14181 turns and 1:48:25. 13:56:04 mumra: work, wife or ... the gods may prevent it ... other games? 13:56:22 dpeg: 2 out of 3 13:56:27 ...no wife yet... 13:56:51 wife > other games!!! 13:57:07 been playing quite a bit of the new Elite game 13:57:17 well it's a beta still 13:57:21 I am not in a position to type a relation between wife and Crawl, not alone at home. 13:57:40 haha 13:58:11 mumra: a remake from last century's 8-bit Elite? 13:58:18 yep 13:58:27 David Braben did a kickstarter to get backing 13:58:29 commercial and 3D? :P 13:58:33 since no publishers would pick it up 13:58:42 erm, the old elite was also commercial and 3D! 13:58:50 yeah the graphics are pretty amazing 13:58:51 that's the spirit... he had a huge fanbase, it'll certainly roll 13:59:10 and the final version will have a procedurally generated galaxy of 400 billion stars 13:59:27 based as closely as possible on our real galaxy using real star data where available :P 13:59:28 although I was more the frontier-guy than the original elite. newtonian mechanics ftw! 13:59:29 I am never sure what these huge numbers are good for :) 13:59:49 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:00:13 no, it's about as impossible to comprehend as our the real galaxy 14:00:24 we have 2^64 different dungeons in dcss! or is it only 2^32? 14:00:41 bhaak: yes, but we don't advertise the game with this fact. 14:00:51 you should :) 14:01:27 I am already worried that people start multiplying numbers when they get told that Crawl has >20 species, backgrounds, and gods. And then run away screaming. 14:01:50 you can change gods midgame, though 14:02:03 ais523_: even more choices! 14:02:24 well you also get to choose weapons, spells, etc. 14:02:25 you just have to wrap them into something else. I did some stress-tests on the nethack dungeon generator and it did 1 million dungeons in 1 day. that is, for 2^32 dungeons, it would take 11 years to run through all of them ;-) 14:02:30 but this just gets into the headroom argumetn 14:02:47 bhaak: haha, great stuff! Are all of them winnable? :P 14:03:10 dpeg: how should I know? I just tested if it crashes or not :) 14:03:13 do you want a game where all the combinations are viable? for NetHack, I'd say yes; for Crawl, if you want the player's choices to matter, some will have to lead to inevitable death 14:03:19 dpeg: no, they aren't, at least not if playing Tou 14:03:32 -!- ZRN_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:03:37 <|amethyst> We know from ais523's speedrunning that there is at least one nethack game that is unwinnable if you have the right (wrong) autopickup settings 14:03:47 it took me about a week of startscumming, but I eventually found a seed that killed you before you got an action 14:03:53 |amethyst: actually, autopickup settings don't matter 14:03:55 <|amethyst> ah! 14:03:58 <|amethyst> even better 14:03:59 there's a bug in 3.4.3 where autopickup is always on for the first turn 14:04:04 I am sure that Elite2 will be wonderful... my hidden point is just that in design, "much/large" is not really an indicator of "good". Sure enough, Crawl isn't really a prime example of LessIsMore either, so I won't be able to make that point consistently. 14:04:10 or, well, there's an unguarded call to pickup() 14:04:27 niice 14:04:29 ais523_: absolutely, the philosophy section very clearly says so 14:04:29 I think you might be able to get around it using autopickup exceptions, though, or perhaps pickup_types 14:04:41 dpeg: it's actually elite 4. there were two successors already 14:04:42 dpeg: did you see my article on headroom in roguelikes? 14:05:01 ais523_: not sure, will you link? 14:05:02 http://nethack4.org/blog/strategy-headroom.html 14:05:27 my argument is that this is a better classification than hack vs. band because NetHack and Angband are actually quite similar in the grand scheme of things 14:05:45 the other end contains games like Brogue and Shiren, with Crawl being somewhere in between 14:06:04 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:09:10 <|amethyst> someone on reddit compared DCSS's evolution from LDC as trying to turn nethack into brogue piece-by-piece; someone else said it was more like vanilla Angband -> Sil 14:09:39 <|amethyst> s/as/to/ 14:09:54 but for me, the situation is pretty much; you're playing a character, you come across two mutually exclusive items/spells/whatever 14:10:10 one extreme, you choose the wrong one, you die, only skillful players get to live 14:10:25 the other extreme, you choose whichever fits your playstyle, it's entirely winnable both ways (thus the choice doesn't actually "matter") 14:16:23 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:53 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:21:57 -!- Gutural has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:23:25 -!- legoman727 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:25:07 "[dcss] has very few to no high-quality escape items"...if only 14:26:30 well, compared to NetHack 14:26:45 you might consider ?oBlink or !oFH high-quality, but that's relative 14:26:52 err, /oH 14:26:57 !oFH is a NetHack item that's much more powerful 14:27:13 if you go to, say, Pokmon Mystery Dungeon, the escape items are even higher-quality 14:27:25 because that game is all about trying to find more escape items to replace the ones you're burning to stay alive 14:27:59 bjorg's and death's door, but it's hard to define "high quality" in an absolute sense; many god abilities give what I'd call high quality escape 14:28:11 bjorg sounds cool 14:28:16 does it?! 14:28:27 ya 14:28:29 br 14:28:31 *fr 14:28:34 or do you mean, the guy Bjorg sounds like a cool guy? 14:28:54 yes 14:29:03 we can add Bjorg in as a god after we remove Beogh 14:29:04 <|amethyst> sounds like eir parents are cool anyway 14:29:10 dang 14:29:17 new unique imho. casts borg's as an escape spell 14:29:34 -!- Nabalzbhf has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:29:34 well you can only cast it finitely many times 14:29:34 yes, nergalle hasn't infuriated me enough. I want more! 14:29:53 I don't do it because I'm atypical, but a typical NetHack player can easily have over 80 !oFH 14:30:10 -!- oberstein has quit [Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number] 14:31:14 gammafunk: _exactly_ 14:31:32 lom & eresh already do this sometimes 14:31:41 but without the consolation of at least reducing their mhp in the process 14:31:53 todo find my old implementation of monster Borg 14:31:54 I'm very undecided about whether I'm serious about mr. bjorg. 14:32:11 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 14:32:17 PleasingFungus: reflavour Jorgrun as Jorgnjor imo 14:32:24 PleasingFungus: but we can't go turning the mysterious wizards with namesake spells into actual uniques! 14:32:32 we can give them a wizlab, that's it! 14:32:35 no no 14:32:37 bjorg 14:32:39 totaly different!!! 14:32:39 !send gammafunk Ozocubu 14:32:40 Sending Ozocubu to gammafunk. 14:32:45 it's like his 14:32:47 !send gammafunk Iskenderun 14:32:49 great-great-grandson 14:32:52 Sending Iskenderun to gammafunk. 14:32:55 or something 14:33:10 <|amethyst> !send İskenderun Iskenderun 14:33:11 Sending Iskenderun to İskenderun. 14:33:17 what's next, kuku, ds great-grandson of Kiku? 14:33:29 or grandaughter? you can't tell with demon names 14:34:06 that idea sounds 14:34:09 cuckoo 14:34:16 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:16 ...doesn't deserve a !glasses. 14:34:17 you almost did glasses there, admit it 14:34:19 haha 14:34:19 -!- Nabalzbhf has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:20 <|amethyst> kooky? 14:34:26 |amethyst: better! 14:34:49 <|amethyst> K is for Kiku, is good enough for me! 14:35:21 Grunt: so when's the monster degeneration implementation 14:35:41 Grunt is degenerating? 14:36:02 I thought it was well-known that I'm already a degenerate <_< 14:36:04 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36:06 huh 14:36:10 ??borg 14:36:10 borgnjor's revivification[1/2]: Level 7 (8 in 0.14) Necromancy spell that completely restores HP (but not rotting) while permanently reducing maxhp between 2 and 10 percent depending on power. Note that the undead and those who take lichform cannot cast this spell, as they are beyond the realm of normal life and death. Those with 20 max HP or less are too frail to use this spell. 14:36:12 this article encourages "design by mockery" 14:36:16 see that j 14:36:18 isn't fair 14:36:24 it is very silly 14:36:54 "to solve pudding farming, have the community mock people who pudding farm". 14:37:02 imagine if crawl's design worked like that. 14:37:10 "to solve victory dancing, mock players who victory dance". 14:37:23 The case of pudding farming, at least, is relatively easy to deal with. In addition to the social stigma, I've added a counter in NetHack 4 that counts the number of puddings that a player splits, visible in the game dumplog. This way, the game itself is giving a subtle hint that maybe this isn't the most enjoyable way to play, yet not cutting off the options of people who genuinely enjoy... 14:37:25 ...doing that. 14:37:30 imagine if there was a forum for dcss where experience players mocked new/lesser players 14:37:40 *experienced 14:37:51 imagine if the vast majority of players never visited that forum 14:37:53 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: isn't that the solution to Cheibriados being overpowered? 14:37:59 hahaha 14:38:00 clearly 14:38:11 well you said community, so 14:38:15 !send |amethyst a duck 14:38:15 Sending a duck to |amethyst. 14:38:20 if players don't participate in the community, they don't get mocked! 14:38:29 you have to come looking for trouble 14:38:42 just put adverts for the community on game load 14:38:49 of course. this is one of many problems with this design idea 14:38:50 I just found it funny 14:38:51 <|amethyst> we did that for the survey 14:39:18 "Hey NERD! Come to the forum and let us rip apart your TERRIBLE GAMEPLAY!" 14:39:51 actually the real trouble I have is with inventory management 14:39:55 <|amethyst> The game does actually mock players under some circumstances 14:40:00 <|amethyst> for example, being at XL 27 14:40:02 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 14:40:02 players do it even though it isn't necessary, then get upset at having to do it even though they needn't 14:40:04 haha 14:40:13 |amethyst, I'm surprised you made it this far. 14:40:25 <|amethyst> !lg . xl=27 14:40:28 4. neil the Bludgeoner (L27 GrWn of Okawaru), mangled by a titanic slime creature on Slime:5 on 2013-11-04 20:48:19, with 607465 points after 96694 turns and 5:06:41. 14:40:35 yeah we take the line that optimal play should generally not be tedious 14:40:38 which I like about dcss 14:40:44 gammafunk: I take that line too 14:40:58 the problem in this case, is that the play is tedious and non-optimal but people think it is optimal 14:41:02 rip 14:41:04 <|amethyst> gammafunk: I think we go further than that 14:41:25 I'm afraid to ask how we go further 14:41:32 that said, tedium can vary by player 14:41:45 <|amethyst> gammafunk: we tend to discourage giving a player any advantage for doing tedious things, even if it's not optimal 14:41:52 optimal play in DCSS involves running away a lot, which is something I dislike having to do; I enjoy games more when I can kill everything as soon as I see it 14:42:33 well "a lot" to you might mean "more than a few times ever in a game" 14:43:15 gammafunk: well I consider things like "retreating and using a different staircase" to be running away 14:43:25 you certainly don't run away from a vast majority of fights in crawl 14:44:10 no, because the vast majority are trivial (which is obvious; otherwise, the player would die very quickly) 14:45:03 well of the fights that aren't trivial, you don't run away from a very large majority of those as well 14:45:18 hmm 14:45:26 if you can safely run away from a nontrivial fight, though, isn't that optimal play? 14:46:16 my suspicion is that, with most characters, you will rapidly run out of nontrivial fights, and end up either (a) too deep for your own good, or (b) flanked by multiple nontrivial fights 14:46:43 yeah we do have level spawns and OOD timers to mitigate spending too many turns, but I (personally) don't think you really have to run from non-trivial enemies all that often 14:47:01 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:47:01 er I gues (personally) was not needed in that phrasing but 14:47:23 yeah what PF was saying basically 14:47:54 my normal Crawl tactics are to pick a character that has some easy way to kill easy enemies, and some reliable way to kill powerful enemies, then die in a relatively disappointing way after a while 14:47:57 -!- Adder has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:48:05 nice 14:48:15 e.g. in one of my best games, I died to a typo trying to kite some really powerful enemy on orc:5 14:48:16 have you met LogicNinja? 14:48:20 no, I haven't 14:48:47 !lg * t s=name !boring 14:48:48 37181 games for * (t !boring): 1258x gw, 820x rodofangel, 677x Esse, 508x silentsnack, 334x Roarke, 249x DeeEhm, 209x guyde, 194x Kellhus, 185x Sharkman1231, 184x smk137, 178x hurafacha, 176x perunasaurus, 176x cerealjynx, 171x jacquesderrida, 169x zarzak, 168x Snack, 165x Trashface, 164x Phlounder, 161x tlatlagkaus, 161x Finwe, 158x qw, 156x IPCA, 147x gammafunk, 146x TZer0, 143x SirDidymus, 142x... 14:48:53 oh, he's not up there 14:48:54 huh 14:49:04 silentnack though 14:49:08 and Grunt at no. 1 14:49:17 another game, I had a character who could apparently beat everything but anacondas 14:49:18 !gkills logicninja 14:49:19 428 kills by logicninja's ghost: 77x LogicNinja, 11x avis, 6x aTarkinC, 4x oshikia, 3x shugdite, 3x duckroller, 3x pubby, 3x TheProvocateur, 3x Bones, 3x Herpes, 3x cattimeplz, 3x TacoSundae, 2x Sobieck, 2x talkingcatjazzcat, 2x towel, 2x Suckerboh, 2x Adderaaz, 2x rapierx, 2x password, 2x morik, 2x Someone4956, 2x Roarke, 2x Wemp, 2x tekoppen, 2x kekekela, 2x timbw, 2x rjrrt, 2x taqueso, 2x qoala... 14:49:30 which iirc is the top non-bot gkills score 14:49:38 LuauGod420 (L16 VpEn) ASSERT(blood.sub_type == POT_BLOOD_COAGULATED) in 'rot.cc' at line 596 failed. (Shoals:2) 14:49:38 was that all by one ghost? 14:49:41 nope 14:49:43 sadly 14:49:45 that would be good tho 14:49:52 ah, the blood crash 14:49:54 that we never fixed 14:49:56 I know there are players who abuse the ghost code 14:50:04 my rot rework is nearly working now 14:50:12 ais523_: he doesn't abuse it, he just 14:50:20 plays a lot of deep elf fire elementalists 14:50:23 gets firestorm castable 14:50:25 and then dies 14:50:34 it is his Style 14:50:34 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:50:34 you basically have to plan on LogicNinja ghosts as its own enemy type now 14:50:40 <|amethyst> !lg FIRECRAB s=char 14:50:41 233 games for FIRECRAB: 68x TrCj, 55x TeCj, 29x TrFE, 24x TrWz, 13x TeAE, 11x CeFE, 6x OpFE, 5x TrSu, 4x SECj, 3x TrNe, 2x OgFE, 2x MiFE, 2x HECj, SEFE, DrWz, SESu, OgFi, DrVM, DrCj, TrEE, SpVM, DrAE 14:50:45 major slime:5 hazard 14:50:46 well, I basically play entirely offline 14:50:52 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 14:50:53 weird 14:51:06 not really, when I'm online I concentrate on onliney stuff 14:51:11 I don't have my own Internet connection 14:51:37 I should go home really, I've just stayed here out of indecisiveness 14:51:56 !send ais523_ boots of running 14:51:57 Sending boots of running to ais523_. 14:52:16 I guess boots of speed, if we're doing nethack 14:52:49 well, there's a difference 14:52:58 boots of running boost movement speed, boots of speed boost action speed too 14:53:05 does nethack have seven league boots or no? 14:53:18 that's ADOM, I think; might be Angband 14:53:33 funny thing is that I didn't realize it boosted action speed in nethack despite winning like 8 times 14:53:36 I knew they were good though 14:53:39 NetHack's speed system is pretty sane except when it tries to distinguish between movement and action speed 14:53:45 which it does by checking to see if you were moving at the end of the previous turn 14:54:05 aaa 14:54:06 and giving you one speed or the other accordingly 14:54:27 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:57:42 1learn add logicninja <+gammafunk> you basically have to plan on LogicNinja ghosts as its own enemy type now 14:58:50 -!- ldf has quit [Quit: ldf] 15:00:05 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:01:09 magicpoints: did you see wheals' epic LogicNinja burn? 15:01:44 No 15:01:57 something like What monsters in Slime have rN? LogicNinja ghosts. 15:02:07 ha 15:02:32 has logicninja ever completed slime? 15:02:37 lol 15:02:41 yeah he has a lot of wins by now 15:02:51 !lm logicninja rune noun=slimy 15:02:51 38. [2014-09-07 08:44:57] LogicNinja the Metallomancer (L25 DEFE of Vehumet) found a slimy rune of Zot on turn 86554. (Slime:6) 15:02:56 38 times in fact! 15:03:01 for completing slime 15:03:11 !lm logicninja uniq~~royal 15:03:11 40. [2014-09-07 08:43:02] LogicNinja the Metallomancer (L24 DEFE of Vehumet) killed the royal jelly on turn 86258. (Slime:6) 15:03:27 ...with two almost completions it seems 15:03:32 it happens to us all 15:04:58 !lm logicninja br.enter=slime / lg:place=slime 15:04:59 5/54 milestones for logicninja (br.enter=slime): N=5/54 (9.26%) 15:05:34 !lm * br.enter=slime / lg:place=slime 15:05:36 2675/26867 milestones for * (br.enter=slime): N=2675/26867 (9.96%) 15:05:38 heh 15:06:10 !lm . br.enter=slime / lg:place=slime 15:06:11 7/33 milestones for gammafunk (br.enter=slime): N=7/33 (21.21%) 15:06:54 speedrunner's winrate immunity, so it doesn't count 15:07:32 !lm gammafunk br.enter=slime char!=heie /lg:place=slime 15:07:33 1/19 milestones for gammafunk (br.enter=slime char!=heie): N=1/19 (5.26%) 15:07:41 well 15:07:56 !lm . char!=heie char!=hesu br.enter=slime / lg:place=slime 15:07:57 1/14 milestones for gammafunk (char!=heie char!=hesu br.enter=slime): N=1/14 (7.14%) 15:09:45 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 15:10:42 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:10:42 -!- johlstei_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:12:22 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:13:16 ais523_: interesting approach for sorting things, many thanks! 15:13:52 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:13:52 -!- Goncyn has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:15:37 dpeg: I think this is a good explanation for why many people leave NetHack for Crawl, and why many people prefer to stick with NetHack 15:15:41 they're just looking for different things in their games 15:16:54 -!- djanatyn has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:18:05 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:18:43 sure thing 15:19:45 I am all in favour of variety, but I also think it's really good that Nethack is moving forward. Many new players drawn into "roguelikes" may try out Nethack first, and the ancient version does not give a very good impression. So keep up the good work! 15:19:56 -!- Gobbo has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:20:46 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:21:17 we're getting close to being able to release 4.3-beta2 15:21:31 sounds good! 15:21:34 many people are demanding a more 3.4.3-like interface as an option, though 15:21:40 and there are technical changes needed to the tiles system 15:21:45 only interface changes and bug fixed then? 15:21:51 I'm planning to move the tiles and ASCII code bases even closer 15:21:58 there are a few gameplay changes, but nearly all of them are minor 15:22:07 there's like six which are noticeable enough to actually mention 15:23:04 we'll be doing more substantial changes in 4.4, though 15:24:53 Pat Rankin's still posting in r.g.r.n ... somewhat tragic. 15:26:01 I feel sad for him 15:26:15 I'm not convinced he can get 3.5 released by himself, but I have the feeling he wants to try 15:26:20 -!- yalue has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:26:31 -!- ebarrett has joined ##crawl-dev 15:26:58 ais523_: yes, sounds a bit like this. Like I said, tragic. As if he was calling for help. :( 15:27:26 in response to a bugreport I sent, he pretty much said "I've wanted to change that for years but nobody wants to write the code" 15:27:37 (it's a longstanding bug in the engrave code which is pretty difficult to fix) 15:28:43 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:44 ais523_: did you ask him to joint the NH4 team? 15:28:53 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:53 no, I didn't 15:29:00 that would seem like a politically awkward move 15:29:06 I wouldn't be opposed if he was willing 15:29:07 In a sense, it's a polite and natural thing to do. 15:29:14 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:17 but I think it's unlikely he would be 15:29:19 It might put him out of his predicament. 15:29:46 A less drastic way would be asking him about this former/current plans for NH. 15:29:51 I mean, we review contributions from anyone 15:30:12 and there isn't an "official" devteam, in the sense that anyone can maintain a fork and it'll get merged if it's good 15:30:25 and can take over just via popularity if it's good but I don't merge it 15:31:12 like, I really like what's going on with DynaHack, for instance 15:31:27 although it's diverged enough from NH4 at this point that merging them would be difficult 15:31:52 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:32:07 alright then 15:32:43 -!- puissantveil has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:32:59 luckily they mostly appeal to different users 15:33:03 so both projects can coexist 15:33:17 when is slash'em extended getting merged in 15:33:20 -!- magicpoints has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:36 haha 15:33:40 -!- magicpoints has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:52 I haven't yet seen any ideas from it that I'd even remotely consider steeling 15:33:57 *stealing 15:34:05 does slash-em have tron bikes yet? 15:34:08 seems like it woould 15:34:14 it very much seems to be a game targeted at people who prefer Slash'EM to NetHack, which is a minority of NetHack players 15:34:27 and I don't consider them to be part of my target market anyway 15:34:37 (that said, the Lawful Quest from Slash'EM is awesome) 15:34:54 ais523_: your headroom article is very good. Is the terminology "low/high headroom" yours, or is it (in some sense) standard? 15:34:57 (at least the fact that it exists, actually /playing/ it might get tedious after a few times) 15:34:59 dpeg: it's mine 15:35:08 because I haven't seen terminology from it before 15:36:10 ok, cool 15:36:34 !seen bhaak 15:36:34 I last saw bhaak at Mon Sep 8 19:04:41 2014 UTC (1h 31m 53s ago) saying 'dpeg: it's actually elite 4. there were two successors already' on ##crawl-dev. 15:37:27 I found it to be a very interesting article. I liked the line about rogue 15:37:52 And, of course, the hack/band distinction was in trouble when it started, simply due to the existence of Rogue, which is by definition the original roguelike. Is it like NetHack, or like Angband? The answer is "no". 15:38:02 yes, another good point 15:38:44 with all these good, small roguelikes out, it makes absolutely no sense to sort 'em into hacks and bands, even if you try to be pragmatic 15:39:00 oh, so rogue is a nethack-angband-like-like? 15:39:07 in this sense, the dinosaurs (ADOM, Angband, Crawl, Nethack) are the deviations, and we're now back to normal 15:39:38 gammafunk: rogue is a very unlikely roguelike! 15:39:43 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:50 <|amethyst> elliptic: btw, in the last Roguelike Radio, Darren Grey suggested doing an episode about roguelike bots 15:39:51 wow 15:40:07 qw-radio activated??? 15:40:19 specials guests, elliptic, grunt 15:40:29 <|amethyst> elliptic: I don't know if your name has come up but I suspect it will 15:40:32 s/elliptic, grunt/qw, gw/ 15:40:33 gammafunk: Rogue's at the other end of the scale to NetHack and Angband 15:40:44 need to get pw done ASAP, clearly 15:40:51 PleasingFungus: get to work imo!!!!! 15:40:52 ais523_: btw, where does NH communication take place these days? 15:41:02 I bet pw won't die to airstrike... 15:41:17 dpeg: 3.4.3? mostly IRC in #nethack and reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/nethack/) 15:41:27 thx 15:41:27 !send #nethack dpeg 15:41:28 Sending dpeg to #nethack. 15:41:37 NH4 is similar wrt gameplay; we have #nethack4 as a dev channel 15:41:39 (I wonder if anyone in #nethack would recognise me these days...) 15:41:42 rgrn is still active but less so than it used to be 15:42:04 there's also apparently a large NetHack group on 4chan but I haven't checked this for obvious reasons 15:42:09 hehe 15:42:17 we know of the 4chan dcss community 15:42:26 they are...interesting...as you'd suspect 15:42:28 Grunt: well GruntHack gets mentioned quite frequently, mostly in response to YANIs 15:42:43 ??4chan 15:42:43 4chan ~ dchan ~ death channel[1/1]: Level 6 necromancy spell in the book of Unlife. Gives you the temporary status of "channeling the dead" (check it in @ or %), during which anything killed by you or in your LOS comes back as a temporary friendly spectral thing (and can still leave a corpse, too). 15:42:53 heh, good redirect 15:43:04 ?/4chan.*dchan 15:43:05 Matching entries (1): goodsequell[6]: 4chan ~ dchan ~ death channel[1/1]: 15:44:24 03Grunt02 07[stone_soup-0.15] * 0.15.0-24-g3e76efd: argh no gratuitous floating point please 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 13+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3e76efd4a66d 15:44:24 03doy02 {Grunt} 07[stone_soup-0.15] * 0.15.0-25-gd84c1e8: simplify 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d84c1e8c5030 15:45:02 ais523_: if you are familiar with Crawl's philosophy text, then that tries to make a clear statement about the projected headroom of the game (although I don't think we come close enough; still too much leeway, in my opinion). The point I'd dispute mostly from your text is why you take Nethack's enormous headroom (btw, you could say "unlimited headroom = sandbox"?) for granted? I would say that the (current) developers are the ones who should define ... 15:45:08 ... what's fun and desirable. 15:45:34 1learn add fun Drinking the delicious tears of dead players. 15:45:54 dpeg: well, the main reason is that NetHack exists to appeal to the players who /want/ a large headroom 15:46:09 to shrink the headroom would basically be to try to compete with games that are already doing medium-headroom better 15:46:34 this is a common accusation against NetHack variants, that they're trying to turn into Crawl-but-worse rather than playing to the strengths of NetHack 15:46:49 -!- ldf_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:47:34 ais523_: my points is that you can like different things about Nethack than its large headroom (and I would argue that Derek and Patrick do), and then there shouldn't be a problem with changing that aspect of the game, while keeping others (that they deem more relevant)... players be damned. 15:47:49 sometimes, you should just have the decency to let a software project die 15:48:00 well, bhaak is here, we can debate what's good about NetHack 15:48:11 but often, developers and users just can't let go 15:48:33 bhaak: why? We could pilfer it, turn it into a skeleton, sacrifice it again, not to mention the joys of digital necrophilia! 15:48:54 digital necrophilia is not as fun as real life necrophilia 15:49:07 You call upon the dead project to rise... The dead project has arisen! 15:49:14 1learn add bhaak 15:49:15 * dpeg has never participated in either... what a lousy life. 15:49:24 this dpeg and grunt both having @ can be confusing at times, since sometimes I misread statements from the one as coming from the other and get very confused 15:49:42 * Grunt zaps a wand. gammafunk looks rather confused. 15:50:13 ug, confused. I'll just ^qyes then 15:51:13 -!- sgn has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 15:52:21 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 15:53:14 I was just looking at this channel and I'm curious how "headroom" is defined in this context 15:53:18 -!- F-Glex is now known as G-Flex 15:53:21 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:36 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:54:36 G-Flex: http://nethack4.org/blog/strategy-headroom.html 15:55:00 strategical headroom vs tactical elbowroom 15:56:04 hmm, that's interesting 15:56:13 I've mostly been assuming perfect (or at least sufficient) tactical play 15:56:31 because in most roguelikes, tactical play is simple enough to bruteforce if you're not worried about the strategic implications 15:56:42 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 15:57:09 ais523_: not sure about that... if resources are really scarce, things blend into each other 15:57:19 yes, indeed 15:57:23 tactics and strategy can't be separated 15:57:44 dpeg: so if I'm getting this right, more headroom means more possible valid options in a given scenario? 15:57:48 or at least, when they can be, the tactics tend to be trivial /because/ there are no strategic implications 15:57:49 G-Flex: yes 15:58:11 so if a game has clear "best" choices in any given scenario, it's low-headroom 15:58:15 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:58:45 which can lead to that issue where you want choices to be meaningful but not no-brainers, and have multiple options without them being totally equivalent/arbitrary 15:58:47 -!- ldf_ has quit [Quit: ldf_] 15:59:02 G-Flex: yes, or even if it's unclear, so long as only one of the choices works 15:59:10 an example of a zero-headroom game is a typical puzzle game 15:59:11 -!- ldf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:59:22 where there's only one sequence of moves that win, and the difficulty is in determining what it is 15:59:31 yeah 15:59:50 of course you also have to consider that the best option for one player might not be the best option for a different player 16:00:15 (different players are good at different things) 16:00:39 -!- schistosomatic has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:42 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:53 (also I guess this doesn't take into account that people play games to have fun in addition to winning, so choice can still be meaningful in that sense even if probability of winning is the same for each) 16:01:18 yeah, that's an obvious response to the "samurai vs wizard" dilemma 16:02:17 I don't know much about nethack in particular 16:02:21 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:03:14 I think I prefer games where there are a lot of different paths to victory (or fun, for that matter), but navigating those paths still takes skill and it's still possible to do something stupid 16:03:35 samurai would be more like Be, and wizard probably like Wz in this context (using crawl backgrounds) 16:04:00 Anyway, in my opinion (and that's what I had in mind when starting to play Crawl, and when I wrote this philosophy blurb), is that a game's goal is to create as many relevant decisions by turn (or hour) as possible. I think this is why I immediately preferred Crawl over Nethack, and why Brogue immediately clicked with me. I believe the (remaining :) player base has incorporated this "low headroom" idea.... guess you shape your players as much they ... 16:04:06 ... shape you. 16:04:10 depending on how flexible you consider the books starts that are stronger than Wz to be 16:08:59 40 years from now enough stuff will have been removed from crawl that it'll just literally be chess 16:09:04 and all this will be moot! 16:09:34 nope. toenail golems will never be removed 16:09:38 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:09:49 the'll be the knights 16:09:53 they'll* 16:10:46 so, by that time, it will just be one of the many fantasy chess variants 16:13:26 I think I prefer games where there are a lot of different paths to victory (or fun, for that matter), but navigating those paths still takes skill and it's still possible to do something stupid <- in NetHack, the easier paths are easy, and the harder paths are harder; if you intentionally stick to the easy paths, you'll win a lot and then perhaps get bored 16:17:04 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 16:17:04 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:30 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 16:17:50 -!- Nabalzbhf2 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:18:41 -!- TwistedSage has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:16 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:20:16 -!- Nabalzbhf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:21:08 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:22:53 the same goes for crawl 16:23:06 except in crawl you can just start speedrunning for turncounts and it'll be ok 16:23:19 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:25:22 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:26:15 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:27:10 -!- TwistedSage has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:19 -!- warni has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:27:35 -!- TwistedSage1 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:29 * Grunt "borrows" some more qw code... 16:28:37 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 16:29:19 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 16:29:27 god damn commie coders 16:29:43 "no need to apologize for stealing code from qw :P" 16:30:05 ([feelings of smug superiosity intensify]) 16:30:22 I only get to do that when gw has a better win rate than qw. 16:30:50 that's a really bad "+([...])*" addition to the quote 16:31:00 -!- Codrus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:20 Does qw train skills properly now? 16:31:36 !lm gw 16:31:36 3957. [2014-09-08 21:31:10] gw the Cruncher (L9 MiGl of Cheibriados) became a worshipper of Cheibriados on turn 10200. (D:7) 16:32:23 chei isn't as handy as trog 16:32:32 but he is stronk nonetheless 16:32:34 -!- Alark has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:32:38 But more stylish, as far as bots are concerned. 16:32:40 !hs qw chei 16:32:41 3. qw the Severer (L17 DDFi of Cheibriados), blasted by Jorgrun (Shatter) on Vaults:1 on 2014-04-22 01:06:22, with 177364 points after 25624 turns and 0:18:36. 16:32:46 rip 16:32:52 !hs bot 16:32:52 11417. qw the Executioner (L27 GrBe of Trog), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2013-11-22 23:33:04, with 1851235 points after 56797 turns and 0:45:16. 16:33:52 -!- Ratboiler has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:33:58 -!- puissantveil has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:34:30 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:35:21 -!- ___miek has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:36:33 wait there's actually a bot that can win? 16:36:39 how long has that been true? 16:36:48 !won bot min=start 16:36:49 bot has won 5 times in 11422 games (0.04%): 5xGrBe 16:36:55 !lg bot won min=start 16:36:56 5. qw the Executioner (L27 GrBe of Trog), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2013-11-22 23:33:04, with 1851235 points after 56797 turns and 0:45:16. 16:36:59 hm 16:37:05 !lg bot won 1 16:37:06 1/5. qw the Executioner (L27 GrBe of Trog), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2013-11-22 23:33:04, with 1851235 points after 56797 turns and 0:45:16. 16:37:17 !lg bot won 16:37:18 5. qw the Axe Maniac (L27 GrBe of Trog), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2014-09-04 02:03:05, with 1802118 points after 61378 turns and 0:47:55. 16:37:24 !lg bot won -log 16:37:25 5. qw, XL27 GrBe, T:61378: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/qw/morgue-qw-20140904-020305.txt 16:37:28 wow good job people writing bots! 16:37:41 bot wins should make us more determined to increase the decision space 16:37:42 -!- raskol has quit [Quit: quit] 16:37:52 rax: and that! And hello :) 16:38:23 hi dpeg! 16:38:29 dpeg: actually, I suspect that adding more choices may just make bots better than humans, because they have more patience to search the space of possible techniques 16:38:56 I should write a Brogue bot someday, because I think that's a game where bots could do better than humans 16:39:11 wanna know what's the common trend among those wins 16:39:15 they all have vamp axes 16:39:17 -!- Tedronai has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:39:19 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:34 ais523_: no, I don't think so. Meaningful decisions make it easier to make mistakes, hence make it harder (for humans and bots). This is a lesson learned from Go: the better player will try to create a more complicated situation (where more moves look reasonable), this makes it a lot harder for the weaker player. 16:39:43 !lg rax 16:39:44 1016. rax the Conqueror (L27 GrFi of Okawaru), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2014-09-08 21:18:37, with 1550231 points after 94277 turns and 7:24:13. 16:39:51 !streak rax 16:39:52 rax has 4 consecutive wins (OMTm, MDFi, HOHe, MiCK) and has won their last 2 games (DsBe, GrFi). 16:39:54 * rax preens. 16:39:55 rax: woohoo, you are still going at it! 16:40:02 dpeg: oh, my point isn't that it wouldn't be harder for bots; it would be 16:40:02 hell yeah, even better <3 16:40:09 my point is that it'd be more harder for humans than for bots 16:40:28 I'm not sure just how much time I will have for crawl but the tournament got me to come back and play and I am having lots of fun 16:40:36 ais523_: that certainly depends on the type of choice... some decisions are pretty hard to make for machines 16:40:39 actually, IME the main issue for bots (besides fighting with the interface, but clua gets around that) is learning what all their options do 16:40:42 I like a lot of the changes and it was super exciting to see how different the game is 16:41:18 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:41:38 rax: how long was your break? 16:41:50 is it different enough that you have a purple stone giant 16:41:56 -!- giganticus has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:42:10 because that is happening right now, in case anyone knows what the hell is going on with him 16:42:21 purple stone giant? 16:42:37 dpeg: I have poked at the game occasionally but I would say my last period of really playing was 2008 or 2009. 16:42:39 yes there is a titan coloured stone giant in my game right now 16:42:45 sometimes the glyph colours break 16:42:56 I've seen green hell knights before 16:43:10 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:43:12 bahahahahahahaha 16:43:19 chei gw just one-shotted an orc special room 16:43:22 (the entire room) 16:43:25 did he slouch 16:43:27 yes 16:43:28 !!!! 16:43:30 good boy 16:43:41 slouching is also a good thing to do with multiple priests on screen 16:43:45 -!- negatendo has quit [Quit: poop] 16:43:46 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:43:49 since it is guaranteed to kill them 16:44:20 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 16:45:07 rax: oh, certainly a lot going on. Always feels good to me, too. Btw, I collected some artwork on the CDO homepage -- did you have a look? (If anyone knows more art(ists), please contact me.) 16:45:36 dang grunt 16:45:38 nice positioning 16:45:42 I have not, but I will do so after work! 16:45:55 Bloaxor: you're not familiar with gw-tactics are you 16:46:01 no 16:46:11 good 16:46:12 -!- Watball has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:46:18 this will be hilarious for you then! 16:47:39 hm 16:47:43 why does it only have 9 EV 16:48:06 das bad 16:48:13 gw isn't great at sk 16:48:14 rip 16:49:13 well i know how to skill a meleetaur^chei so if i could tinker with it that'd be great 16:49:16 (objective: get gw to get Pious II before tourney ends) 16:49:31 gw wouldn't be gw if it weren't wrought by my own hands. 16:50:22 well make it get 11 dodging quickly 16:51:46 gw pls 16:53:00 !locate gw 16:53:01 gw was last seen on CBRO (gw, L3 MiGl of No God). 16:53:15 it just splatted against a death yak 16:53:39 because it walked with it on its butt all the way across the battlefield 16:54:01 here we go again 16:54:15 I need to teach gw when not to move as a chei-ite 16:54:20 gw's FLEEEEING instinct is really strong 16:54:35 cheigw is more like 16:54:37 bravegw 16:54:40 -!- Earlo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:42 optimally 16:54:55 it needs more dodging too 16:55:24 this is very weird to watch 16:55:33 read: you haven't experienced gw-tactics yet have you 16:55:41 nope 16:55:41 (it's better with, say, DDGl of Makh) 16:55:48 That makes sense haha 16:56:32 Grunt: does it net things it doesn't like 16:56:48 gw is not intelligent enough to pick specific projectiles. 16:57:06 well that is for later 16:57:19 right now i'd say the most critical error is that it doesn't pump dodging 16:57:33 pls fix 16:57:48 !watch gw 16:57:48 No current CAO game for gw. 16:57:54 ^watch gw 16:57:54 Watch gw at: http://crawl.berotato.org:8080/#watch-gw 16:57:58 http://crawl.berotato.org:8080/#watch-gw 16:58:04 I should watch on console anyhow 16:58:09 I want gw to hit 6* piety 16:58:24 Grunt: Does it use a+a often? 16:58:51 Bloaxor: whenever it sees that it can, it does :) 16:59:36 well there's a lot of popcorn as a cheitaur, so it should be a bit conservative 16:59:40 what rip 16:59:53 Bloaxor: well, I think it checks to see what it's using it against 17:00:02 (you think?) 17:04:13 dang gw 17:04:28 that is a sweet laj 17:04:50 &dump gw 17:04:51 http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/gw/gw.txt 17:05:17 wow this uh, hard to watch 17:05:32 wish gw would take it easy a bit 17:06:37 if anything it's a bit too slow 17:06:52 Well, it is playing Chei... 17:06:53 <_< 17:07:03 dang did you see that 17:07:12 don't starve gw! 17:07:21 rip 17:07:22 ugh 17:07:23 rip 17:07:27 those tactics 17:09:00 -!- schistosomatic is now known as schisto 17:09:26 only 500 turns on d:1 17:09:27 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:41 so, GRUNT 17:09:46 when are you fixing the SKILLS 17:10:11 heh, love the running from roaches 17:10:15 can never be too careful 17:11:15 if gw's doing cheitaurs then i'm pretty sure mimo would be a better choice 17:11:24 less dependency on finding a laja of tang 17:12:18 -!- eliotn has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:12:44 oh uh 17:12:50 he needs to learn a bit more about eels I guess 17:12:58 s/he/it/ 17:14:15 yes gammafunk 17:14:18 let the bloax seep in 17:14:48 and soon you'll be referring to everything on the internet as guys 17:14:58 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:15:21 oh dang, elec qstaff 17:15:35 er, where? 17:15:53 gw 17:16:08 the one it has now is not elec 17:16:46 Wp: a) +1 quaterstaff (elec) 17:16:57 maybe my display or something 17:17:14 !lg gw 17:17:14 1461. gw the Twirler (L4 MiGl), slain by a gnoll (a +0 spear) on D:2 (okawaru_trees_2) on 2014-09-08 22:13:18, with 70 points after 1274 turns and 0:00:37. 17:17:20 !lg gw -log 17:17:20 1461. gw, XL4 MiGl, T:1274: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/gw/morgue-gw-20140908-221318.txt 17:17:34 yeah that wasn't elec... 17:17:39 !lg gw -log 17:17:39 1462. gw, XL8 MiGl, T:6944: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/gw/morgue-gw-20140908-221706.txt 17:17:42 ah there 17:17:53 er 17:18:02 neither were elec 17:18:34 gw pls 17:18:38 !lg gw -log 17:18:39 1463. gw, XL5 MiGl, T:2772: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/gw/morgue-gw-20140908-221830.txt 17:19:44 !lg gw max=xl 17:19:45 1463. gw the Bludgeoner (L15 MiBe of Trog), slain by a spiny frog on Swamp:1 on 2014-09-02 00:41:26, with 87178 points after 38209 turns and 0:23:19. 17:20:06 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:09 !lg gw max=xl -2 17:20:09 1462/1463. gw the Severer (L15 DDFi of Makhleb), blasted by Asterion (bolt of lightning) on Snake:4 on 2014-09-04 17:37:22, with 105049 points after 26288 turns and 0:21:09. 17:21:12 !lg gw killer=blink_frog -log 17:21:13 2. gw, XL11 MiGl, T:15117: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/gw/morgue-gw-20140908-215930.txt 17:21:21 there it is 17:21:21 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.16-a0-343-gabea0e8 (34) 17:26:43 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 17:28:17 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 17:34:32 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:36:12 Grunt: the dodging issue is fixed as easily as adding (or god == "cheibriados") to the whole dodging check ordeal :v 17:39:34 -!- appleKen is now known as bananaken 17:39:44 -!- ibar has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:40:48 -!- Blazinghand_ is now known as Blazinghand 17:46:12 -!- stanzill is now known as stanzbrb 17:52:42 -!- raskol_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:56:13 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 17:56:35 barbs? 17:56:38 -swift? 17:56:44 frozen? 17:57:58 rooted? 17:58:16 sap? 17:58:21 weak? 17:59:15 toxic? 17:59:18 -!- vfoley_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:00:21 -!- puissantveil has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:00:25 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 18:04:46 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:04:58 -!- Zooty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:07:04 apparently gw is 2dum to uncurse itself and take out the trash 18:07:05 poor gw 18:08:47 I was specifically listing reasons not to try to run away from enemies 18:08:55 but all status effects are welcome :) 18:09:06 -!- stanzbrb is now known as stanzill 18:09:32 chei and enemies are not strong and far enough 18:09:34 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:15 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:11:50 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 18:11:58 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:12:24 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 18:22:22 -!- hauzer has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:26:04 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: Killed by a kitten.] 18:29:28 -!- namelastname112_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:36:18 -!- SomeStupidGirl has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:27 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:41:56 -!- syllogism has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:43:25 -!- stanzill has quit [Quit: on y dort] 18:43:41 PleasingFungus: mesm 18:44:08 well, you can sort of sometimes run away from that (depending on terrain), but you need different logic 18:44:09 so, true 18:44:40 good old /lightning 18:45:15 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 18:46:13 I just meant 18:46:16 walking behind walls 18:46:18 to break los 18:46:23 yeah I know 18:46:27 heh 18:46:32 just like having that /lighting for that is all 18:46:39 gotcha 18:46:44 cancels mesm AND does damage to the siren 18:46:45 <# 18:46:49 er 18:46:50 oops 18:46:51 hm. got murdered by a sphix paralyze earlier today. clearly it's time for MR reform. 18:46:55 *sphinx 18:47:05 !lg PleasingFungus 18:47:05 312. PleasingFungus the Bludgeoner (L18 DrAK of Lugonu), mangled by an ironbrand convoker (a +3 morningstar) on Vaults:1 on 2014-09-08 21:53:27, with 221189 points after 37674 turns and 3:17:31. 18:47:16 ??MR 18:47:16 magic resistance[1/5]: Magic resistance is your or a monster's ability to ignore hostile enchantments or some other magic. Player MR comes from XL, Trog's Hand, and items. The most important hostile monster enchantments are confuse, slow, deep elf sorcerer/wizard/ogre mage/Erolcha/Louise banishment, lich/orc sorcerer/great orb of eyes/sphinx paralysis. 18:47:28 go 15-rune with MR++ like a man 18:47:28 ??magic_resistance[2] 18:47:28 magic resistance[2/5]: Chances of anything resisting a spell are calculated like this: (magic resistance + 100 - the spells power) is compared to ( random2(100) + random2(101) ) and if the random numbers are less the spell is negated. 18:47:31 I was working on it 18:47:46 (not like my MiIE had a choice in the matter) 18:47:50 heh 18:48:12 I had =mr, but wasn't use it because it had been too long since I'd last been paralyze-murdered 18:48:17 and I'd lost my fear 18:48:22 *wasn't using 18:48:28 I was musing over the idea that hexes would check mr such that they had a chance to be completely resisted, a chance to apply -mr, and a chance to apply the hex based on a roll and a check on your mr 18:48:46 so you'd get one of those three results every time a monster hexed you 18:49:13 instead of it being so binary resist/hex 18:49:21 someone suggested making mr affect duration rather than effect chance 18:49:33 or in addition to, maybe 18:49:39 I'd definitely vouch for player hexes working like that at least 18:49:47 you could take it further and make mr an outright hp-like counter, but that requires more interface 18:49:51 well, that wouldn't work at all for player hexes imho 18:49:57 consider hibernation 18:49:58 the binary way hexes currently work is the exact reason I loathe hexes so much 18:50:30 you either instantly kill the monster (that's what confuse/enslave/etc essentially does) or you do absolutely nothing at all 18:50:42 welllll 18:50:48 http://anydice.com/program/45df well MR is kind of weird as hell 18:50:48 replace magic resistance with "resistance class" which may reduce the effect magic has on you, similar to ac/damage 18:50:49 (1) player hexes are a separate conversation 18:51:02 since they serve very different design roles from monster hexes 18:51:04 yeah, well that's more about what the hexes do than mr 18:51:16 re what potatolizard said 18:51:40 (2) there was a suggestion that casting the same hex repeatedly on a given monster would give a higher chance of success 18:51:48 not sure how i feel about it 18:52:12 yeah that'd be my suggestion but without the EH exploit you mentioned 18:52:34 when I say "that'd be my suggestion" I mean it's similar in principle to my -mr suggestion 18:52:39 my phrasing is off today 18:52:40 yeah, a little simpler tho 18:52:57 the EH exploit was for the suggestion of making hexes always work for at least a little while 18:53:28 oh, well it'd be a problem with my resist/-mr/do the hex suggestion 18:53:36 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:53:44 although you could adjust the hexes so that lower level ones had worse outcomes wrt to the -mr I guess 18:53:58 idk 18:54:03 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:54:16 -!- allbefore has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:54:21 tangentially, I think I'm going to get around to applying that old chris o patch for monster MR 18:55:40 %git 18:55:40 07doy02 * 0.16-a0-343-gabea0e8: simplify 10(6 hours ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=abea0e8f4a96 18:55:46 oh 18:55:50 also adding my own refactoring to that pile 18:56:24 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 34.0a1/20140808030201]] 19:00:36 -!- predator217 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:01:46 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:02:35 obviously confusion should be a 0-100% meter and every confusion cast on you increases it proportional to how likely it would have been to work under the old system!!! 19:02:45 (I can't actually think of any games that do it like this) 19:03:19 fr axes don't stop cleaving when confused 19:03:24 -!- Stoats has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 19:03:25 (bot buff!!!) 19:03:52 fr: limb damage 19:04:00 fr guts 19:04:20 they're called "chunks" 19:04:50 you can't cut them off the monsters while they're alive 19:04:54 and beat them to death with them 19:05:10 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:06 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 19:07:14 next april 1st crawl should just be replaced by ivan, no one will notice the difference 19:07:38 not enough bananas 19:08:10 -!- negatendo has quit [Quit: poop] 19:09:00 ivan with the source code grepped to replace banana with snozzcumber 19:09:26 now we're talking! 19:10:04 A pile of snozzcumber flesh. 19:10:12 A snozzcumber-flesh leg. 19:10:27 (Your severed snozzcumber-flesh leg.) 19:10:58 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:12:54 -!- raskol_ is now known as raskol 19:13:29 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:14:44 I feel too dumb to ask in the CRD thread, but what are some of the rationales for announcing monster weapon brands? just giving the players a chance to plan their tactics without risking a hit from a is 19:14:54 from a distortion weapon? 19:15:31 also holy wrath if you're undead 19:16:35 basically, making it more fair for the player ? 19:18:07 Earlygame electrocution and venom also matter a lot 19:18:10 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 19:18:32 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 19:18:37 gammafunk: incoming gammafunk-approved patch on mantis 19:19:30 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:21:46 Can we allow memorizing spells while poisoned? Currently your memorized gets interrupted every turn while poisoned, which can be annoying 19:22:59 Improve layout_gridville 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8942 by infiniplex 19:27:49 magicpoints: try putting "interrupt_memorise = monster_attack, stat" in your rcfile 19:28:19 Thank you, saving that for later testing 19:28:52 this is what I was looking at by the say 19:28:59 !source set_default_activity_interrupts 19:28:59 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/initfile.cc;hb=HEAD#l544 19:29:44 Besides convenience, it can make a gameplay difference if you're trying to memorize regen or cure poison 19:31:28 it seems funny that changing something in the rc has an actual gameplay mechanic 19:31:31 rather than just being automation 19:31:47 not sure if it does 19:32:22 I wouldn't mind just making spell memorization single-turn 19:32:24 which would avoid this issue too :P 19:32:25 and if it does it might let you attempt to memorize then die 19:32:29 sure 19:32:42 elliptic: sif buff, careful about that 19:32:56 3 turns to cast any spell in any book you carry 19:33:23 mm spending 3 turns to cast a spell 19:33:31 And piety 19:33:40 elliptic: good adom innovation 19:34:13 -!- serious has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:37:21 -!- grrk-bzzt has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37:23 Hello 19:37:24 ivan with the source code grepped to replace banana with snozzcumber 19:37:32 DCSS returns assertion failed on Windows 8 19:37:38 ivan's source is so inpenetrable I wouldn't be surprised if somehow that fails to work 19:37:43 Is there a workaround for that? 19:39:02 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 19:47:01 -!- Zermako has quit [] 19:47:54 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:51:20 -!- dreamaddict has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:51:29 maybe 19:51:31 maaaaaaaaybe 19:51:40 -!- grrk-bzzt has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:51:44 the game could give you a clue if there's going to be a jiyva altar in lair or not 19:51:53 or maybe I'm just ranting 19:52:22 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:53:25 or maybe just get rid of the whole slime entrance altars thing 19:56:16 -!- mibe has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:56:56 -!- mauris has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:58:29 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:04:23 -!- Wah has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:22 !tell wheals gw the Basher (L12 MiFi), worshipper of Yredelemnul, mangled by wheals' ghost on Lair:2 20:05:22 Grunt: OK, I'll let wheals know. 20:08:05 -!- soulfreshner has joined ##crawl-dev 20:08:45 no permissions pull from git repo? 20:08:51 :( 20:11:33 soulfreshner: huh? It's working fine for me. 20:12:42 is this right? origin git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git (fetch) 20:13:54 ...huh, git:// isn't working right now 20:14:09 wanna get some spoilers 20:14:10 soulfreshner, try https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git for now 20:14:14 Wr are better AM than AM 20:14:33 except Wr aren't a ranged start so tough shit 20:14:50 ta 20:19:08 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 20:31:25 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:31:59 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:48 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 20:37:36 !tell ais523 interesting article on headroom! as a crawl dev i never really thought of the idea that nerfing something everybody used could reduce variety, but you do make that point fairly well 20:37:36 wheals: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 20:37:36 Sorry wheals, I don't know who ais523 is. 20:37:49 i guess his altar is part of him! 20:37:56 !tell ais523_ interesting article on headroom! as a crawl dev i never really thought of the idea that nerfing something everybody used could reduce variety, but you do make that point fairly well 20:37:56 wheals: OK, I'll let ais523_ know. 20:38:10 You see here an ancient altar of NetHack. 20:38:29 Grunt: i bet gw tried to bend time at my Fo ghost, the fool 20:39:00 !lg gw killer~~wheals 20:39:01 2. gw the Basher (L12 MiFi of Yredelemnul), mangled by wheals' ghost on Lair:2 on 2014-09-09 01:05:00, with 20129 points after 18477 turns and 0:15:58. 20:39:08 of Yredelemnul 20:39:12 gw is trying for Pious II :) 20:39:21 oh, right 20:39:34 gw should have pain mirrored 20:40:09 gw knows how to pain mirror! There was just a bug where it was trying to recall allies excessively despite having none <_< 20:40:29 !tell ais523_ from looking at the other blog posts there, i get the impression that NH4 code is over-designed (and as a crawl dev, i mean "not held together with chewing gum and prayers") 20:40:30 wheals: OK, I'll let ais523_ know. 20:40:41 -!- lgft has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:40:46 I remember it took n7 some effort to get recall working right on xw's yred games 20:40:49 !hs xw yred 20:40:49 294. xw the Executioner (L15 LODK of Yredelemnul), blown up by an orb spider on Spider:5 on 2013-12-02 03:43:43, with 98682 points after 30585 turns and 0:26:55. 20:42:13 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:42:51 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:43:05 -!- Blomdor has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:43:55 -!- ldf has quit [Quit: ldf] 20:44:06 -!- bisous has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:36 -!- herself has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:47:26 wheals: where can I read this article 20:47:40 http://nethack4.org/blog/ 20:47:50 tanks 20:48:50 the one on memory allocation was what made me think there was a lot more thought put into code structure in nh4 than ever has been in crawl; ofc, C++ does improve on C in some ways there 20:49:10 so we don't have to do as much thought 20:49:40 -!- Atomikkrab has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:51:03 I tried to read the headroom article but lost interest when it started trying to talk about "best choice" 20:55:04 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 20:55:25 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:57:07 the most important thing to know is that slash'em aims for max headroom 20:58:29 by my limited understanding of headroom, max headroom should mean that the game is always winnable no matter what choices you make 20:58:44 basically rfk except with more choices 20:58:51 maybe I am confused though 20:59:48 -!- soulfreshner has left ##crawl-dev 21:01:49 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 21:05:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Headroom_(TV_series) 21:06:02 -!- doy has left ##crawl-dev 21:06:22 -!- doy has joined ##crawl-dev 21:07:10 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:07:50 ok the idea behind headroom is 21:08:12 high headroom = you can take many variations on the path to victory, on how you build your character, etc. without significantly reducing your chances for survival 21:08:50 -!- Poncheis has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:09:05 -!- Poncheis_ is now known as Poncheis 21:09:18 low headroom = resources are becoming more limited, strategic choices are more/less viable relative to each other, you can feel forced into a specific playstyle because doing other things is suicide 21:09:28 nethack/angband: high headroom. crawl/brogue: low headroom. 21:12:22 also, while I'm thinking about it: tower of the sorcerer = almost 0 headroom 21:12:32 it's a puzzle game that kind of looks like an rpg/roguelike 21:12:42 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 21:12:45 and all wins in it look more or less the same 21:13:53 how should I deal with a switch statement where I want to explicitly handle each case? 21:14:01 ASSERT(false) at the end? 21:14:27 dprf("You are suddenly devoured by a swarm of bugs!") 21:14:57 i think die("bad ") is the usual way 21:15:12 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:18:06 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 21:19:20 ok, I will do that then 21:20:48 -!- tabstorm has joined ##crawl-dev 21:21:58 Patashu: that sounds like what I said then, making the chance for survival always be 100% (say, by turning on wizmode) is an easy way to increase headroom 21:22:25 -!- ruwin has quit [] 21:23:01 so clearly any game that "aims for max headroom" should do this :P 21:23:20 "you can feel forced into a specific playstyle because doing other things is suicide" 21:23:45 I might be dumb or sleepy but I really don't see how this applies to crawl 21:24:24 unless by "specific playstyle" you mean "do the right things for winning instead of the wrong things for fun" 21:25:11 and by wrong I mean either actively detrimental or just downright stupid, which I concede that some people are all too willing to do 21:25:21 hi 21:25:45 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:31:07 -!- Kramin has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:38:12 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:39:55 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 21:40:29 -!- vfoley_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:40:48 given a crawl version (like 0.15.0-23-gc2b521c) how do I find out what bugfixes that version includes? 21:42:41 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:43:05 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 21:43:46 do you have a particular one in mind 21:43:54 the dith stealth bug 21:44:03 but I would like to be able to look it up for myself in future 21:44:15 I may have to actually use git some day :( 21:44:22 it's mostly going to be a manual process of doing git log and reading the commit messages 21:44:43 occasionally commits will be cross-referenced with mantis issues, which makes things easier 21:45:09 I thought git would make this kind of thing... easier? 21:45:11 %git :/[Dd]ith 21:45:12 07reaverb02 * 0.15.0-23-gc2b521c: Fix Dith not actually increasing player stealth 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 5+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c2b521c6e66e 21:45:18 that's convenient 21:45:18 raskol: you want to check relative to 0.15.0, I assume? 21:45:28 in this case that is precisely the commit that fixed that bug :P 21:45:33 Grunt: I want to check relative to each server, if the servers aren't all synchronized 21:46:17 -!- Zrachosh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:47:06 thank you doy and elliptic 21:47:09 git kind of makes it hard to look at things sequentially 21:47:18 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0/20140825202822]] 21:47:23 it does? 21:48:13 well, at least i'm not actually sure how to get the number that chei uses given a commit id 21:48:26 wheals: you type %git in IRC :P 21:48:43 %git c2b521c 21:48:43 07reaverb02 * 0.15.0-23-gc2b521c: Fix Dith not actually increasing player stealth 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 5+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c2b521c6e66e 21:49:02 someday.... someday I will stop typing ctrl+L in wizard mode 21:49:04 (god forbid we have regression tests) 21:49:04 bh: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 21:49:09 nrook: yes I have that problem too 21:49:35 elliptic: at least I got out of the habit of training skills first! 21:49:54 if you have the git repository around i guess you can git checkout and use git log --grep to find whether that commit had the bugfix yet 21:51:32 bh: actually yeah, stealth is a perfect use case for unit-ish tests in a legacy code base, isn't it? Boils down to a number, and nobody notices it so it's easy to break it without anyone noticing 21:51:34 git log 0.15.0.. 21:51:56 * wheals wonders how long it will take him to start using &m instead of &M 21:52:11 * wheals additionally wonders whether anyone has ever used &M (old &m) 21:52:11 wheals: did we change monster name and number? 21:52:23 doy swapped the commands, i think 21:52:23 did the dith bug result in less player-visible stealth (i.e. the adjective), or was it more hidden than that? 21:52:25 thank god 21:52:32 anyone who knows monster numbers is an idiot savant 21:53:03 perhaps for when you get the numbers from those bogus mc asserts 21:53:29 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 21:53:43 nrook: it was in check_stealth() so I think it would result in different @djectives 21:53:47 nrook: the adjective correctly described reality, which was that dith didn't boost your stealth at all unless you had exactly 200 piety 21:54:00 ... 21:54:03 okay, then yeah, that's easily testable 21:54:28 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 21:56:00 nrook: thanks for volunteering 21:56:05 idg why ^m is ! now 21:56:10 in wizmode 21:56:26 I should say: the marginal cost of testing that when a test runner/cbuild is already set up is low :p 21:56:29 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 21:57:27 read: &?^M can't work 21:57:36 -!- espressodan has joined ##crawl-dev 21:57:37 because ^M and enter mean the same thing to the terminal 21:58:05 Huh? Memorize a spell used to be ^m though, do you mean that when it was it wasn't working for terminal users? 21:58:20 -!- mamgar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:31 yeah, from the help menu 21:58:41 usually you can do &? and then use a command directly from there 21:58:43 Ah. 21:58:47 I see what you mean now. 21:59:14 sadly also means we can't use ^[ as a command 21:59:57 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:00:09 TIL: git format-patch HEAD^^ HEAD does not do what you think it does 22:00:10 -!- Flun has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:02:47 -!- rast has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:11 -!- mibe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:03:39 -!- Stelpa has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:06:57 -!- Pluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:07:50 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:08:03 anybody feel like looking at some small cleanup patches? 22:09:43 https://drive.google.com/a/nrook.com/#folders/0B5Kf4Q7iskBoVmhSY21yQ0ozS1k 22:10:22 -!- Poncheis has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:10:24 -!- Poncheis_ is now known as Poncheis 22:13:01 -!- giganticus has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:13:30 gw (L5 MiGl) (D:3) 22:13:50 !crash gw 22:13:51 3. gw, XL5 MiGl, T:2338 (milestone): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/gw/crash-gw-20140909-031329.txt 22:17:59 elliptic: that was my fault; made a loopy 22:19:54 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:01 -!- OCTOTROG has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:34 Grunt: did you catch that gw gets kinda awkward when it has summons 22:22:07 (it kind of hardlocked for me every time it got butterflies from uselessness or read ?summoning) 22:29:53 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:32:27 -!- lukano has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:33:54 -!- Fortescue_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:34:00 -!- mong has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:36:29 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:44 -!- Pacra has quit [*.net *.split] 22:38:44 -!- tensorpudding has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:03 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:40:33 -!- espressodan has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:33 -!- allbefore has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:33 -!- bananaken has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:33 -!- croikle has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:33 -!- Xjs|moonshine has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:33 -!- Lantell has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:33 -!- neunon has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:33 -!- jefkin has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:33 -!- Erppo has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:34 -!- TZer0 has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:34 -!- lavos has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:34 -!- jbenedet1o has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:34 -!- Fortescue has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:34 -!- CampinSam has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:34 -!- unpaidbi1l has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:34 -!- Lprsti99____ has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:34 -!- tbuck has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:40 -!- croikle_ is now known as croikle 22:40:56 -!- espressodan has joined ##crawl-dev 22:40:58 -!- Lprsti99_____ is now known as Lprsti99____ 22:41:08 -!- radinms has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:41:08 -!- TZer0 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:41:40 -!- Lantell has joined ##crawl-dev 22:42:40 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 22:42:40 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 22:42:41 -!- Fortescue_ is now known as Fortescue 22:43:50 -!- neunon is now known as Guest43146 22:44:23 -!- qoala has joined ##crawl-dev 22:44:26 good I think I finally finally have gw's search_for working 22:44:38 (in conjunction with its requivering) 22:49:45 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:51:30 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:55:09 -!- rorriMnmaD has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:55:20 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Exit Stage Left] 22:55:47 -!- Porost has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:53 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:12 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:00:00 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 23:02:10 Quazifuji (L15 DsGl) ASSERT(in_non_diamond_int(r.start)) in 'ray.cc' at line 217 failed. (Orc:4) 23:02:22 Quazifuji (L15 DsGl) ASSERT(in_non_diamond_int(r.start)) in 'ray.cc' at line 217 failed. (Orc:4) 23:02:34 -!- tabstorm has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:03:33 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:03:53 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:04:10 -!- Stoats has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 23:04:11 Quazifuji (L15 DsGl) ASSERT(in_non_diamond_int(r.start)) in 'ray.cc' at line 217 failed. (Orc:4) 23:04:32 -!- schisto is now known as schistosomatic 23:05:25 -!- hypermatt has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:07:40 -!- nico- has quit [Quit: .] 23:08:24 -!- read has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:10:30 -!- xFleury has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:10:33 -!- Poncheis has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:10:40 -!- Poncheis_ is now known as Poncheis 23:11:45 -!- hypermatt has joined ##crawl-dev 23:17:01 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0/20140825202822]] 23:20:20 -!- mong_ is now known as mong 23:20:25 -!- mong has quit [Changing host] 23:21:39 -!- raskol` is now known as raskol 23:22:31 -!- read has joined ##crawl-dev 23:28:50 -!- read has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:29:13 -!- read has joined ##crawl-dev 23:35:45 -!- codehero has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:37:28 -!- phyphor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:45 -!- demiskeleton has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:39:10 ASSERT(save) in 'tags.h' at line 51 failed. 23:39:10 %??ghost crab 23:43:14 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 23:44:52 -!- rophy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:46:29 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 23:46:45 -!- rorriMnm1D has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:29 -!- valrus has quit [Client Quit] 23:50:04 -!- Sharkman1231 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:52:31 -!- Tungsten has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:53:43 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:24 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:56:38 -!- joy1999 has quit [Quit: Http://www.ZeroIRC.NET Zero IRC Ver 2.9G]