00:00:03 <gammafunk> yeah my guess is hp_max_temp is negative
00:00:20 <PleasingFungus> unrot_hp increases hp_max_temp and caps it at 0
00:00:48 <PleasingFungus> so yeah, it's just a terrible variable name, not a terrible variable description
00:01:00 <gammafunk> two terrible variable names really
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00:01:10 <gammafunk> hp_max_temp isn't the temporary max hp
00:01:35 <gammafunk> unless that's teh terrible one you were referring to :)
00:01:45 <gammafunk> but they're both bad imo
00:02:15 <PleasingFungus> no, you are right on both counts
00:08:22 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-2130-g28e4b74 (34)
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02:19:48 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.15-a0-2130-g28e4b74 (34)
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03:00:24 <Cheibriados> Scroll of brand weapon unusable 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8800 by kroki
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03:24:20 <Cheibriados> electric eel (12;) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 9-24 | AC/EV: 1/15 | cold-blooded, !sil | Res: 06magic(12), 10elec++, 12drown | XP: 54 | Sp: b.electricity (3d6) | Sz: small | Int: reptile.

03:24:20 <Bloax> %??Electric eel
03:26:28 <Lantell> BluebellGnoll (L27 MfIE) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 115: ZotDef: monster freezing wraith failed to pathfind to (39,43) (the Orb) (Zot (ZotDef))
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08:06:52 <Kvaak> shouldn't gourmand be marked useless for ^gozag?
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08:12:31 <Bloax> indeed
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08:19:46 <Cheibriados> Amulet of the gourmand isn't marked useless for Gozag followers. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8801 by Kvaak
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11:10:34 <TZer0> Suggestion: make it possible to torch mangroves using lightning spells.
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11:22:13 <Cheibriados> Boots of Flying Issues 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8802 by Gadrel
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12:05:25 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.15-a0-2130-g28e4b74 (34)
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13:54:00 <dpeg> !seen Grunt
13:54:00 <Sequell> dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
13:54:00 <Sequell> I last saw Grunt at Wed Jul 16 03:50:46 2014 UTC (15h 3m 14s ago) saying 'over it' on ##crawl-dev.
13:54:04 <dpeg> !messages
13:54:04 <Sequell> (1/2) bh said (3w 16h 37m 34s ago): Today I met Ken Arnold one of the authors of rogue!
13:54:22 <Cheibriados> Swapping from from a vamp weapon to itself gives two prompts, no action 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8803 by wheals
13:54:22 <dpeg> !messages
13:54:22 <Sequell> (1/1) PleasingFungus said (5d 1h 57m 5s ago): Thanks!
13:54:54 <dpeg> bh gets to meet all the cool people :) But he couldn't attend IRDC, guess that's the Europe vs America tradeoff.
13:55:13 * wheals kicks a ball at dpeg.
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13:55:40 <dpeg> !tell bh One thing about Crawl (sorry about flaking on the rest so badly... no time): I think new Abyss is cool & dandy but what about banishing players to different levels?
13:55:40 <Sequell> dpeg: OK, I'll let bh know.
13:55:51 * dpeg drops dead.
13:56:10 <dpeg> wheals: always hated football as a kid :)
13:57:18 <Bloax> is there any particular reason for "Alive" being the vampire satiation cap
13:57:18 <eb_> I'm pretty sure banishing people to deeper abyss floors will make the people who already hate abyss hate it even more
13:57:26 <eb_> but, I'm not with these people
13:58:10 <dpeg> eb_: I don't want to make them happy, I want to avoid boredom. It's alright when they die. They complain about boring Abyss:1, let them eat Abyss:3!
13:58:16 <dpeg> Bloax: flavour?
13:58:21 <eb_> dpeg: yes pretty much
13:58:27 <Bloax> dpeg: well it's flavour to chug a bottle every time it runs out
13:59:17 <dpeg> Bloax: hard to say what you want to change. Change "Alive" to something else? Have nutrition last longer? Reduce number of bottles?
13:59:39 <dpeg> Fun fact: now playing "Transsilvanian Hunger"
13:59:50 <wheals> i think he means being able to increase satiation while alive so you can stay alive longer
13:59:51 <Bloax> just don't cap the satiation right at the point where you hit alive
13:59:57 <dpeg> ah, I see
14:00:10 <Bloax> >blasting some old norwegian black metal
14:00:13 <Bloax> what is this i see
14:00:21 <dpeg> basically every day, yes
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14:00:58 <PleasingFungus> oh, you mean getting banished directly to deeper abyss floors? that's certainly make banishment relevant later on
14:01:05 <PleasingFungus> which is nice
14:01:11 <PleasingFungus> *that'd
14:01:30 <wheals> you could also nerf abyss:1 slightly if a high level player can't get there
14:01:31 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: yes, really old idea. Pretty simple, never got around to endorse it properly :) Also saw it on the forum... the time is ripe!
14:01:41 <dpeg> wheals: that too, but why?
14:01:53 <dpeg> Bloax: There is this thing that nutrition burns faster at high levels for Vp -- this was intentional: we wanted Alive to be a special state, not something you're in all the time. Not saying that that's particularly good reasoning, or well executed even.
14:02:37 <Bloax> The problem is that you can be in it all the time.
14:02:46 <Bloax> except it is much like recasting stoneskin once it runs out
14:02:53 <PleasingFungus> dpeg: presumably to make getting banished still quite dangerous for low-level characters while not making it quite as lethal
14:02:54 <wheals> i think that an early banishment is more fun if you're just barely on the edge of survival rather than impossibly far
14:02:59 <PleasingFungus> ^
14:03:15 <Bloax> i once got a free rune from erolcha
14:03:16 <PleasingFungus> I mean that's a bit hyperbolic
14:03:18 <wheals> probably a d:1 disto kobold will be death either way
14:03:21 <Bloax> but then again i was a mimo^chei
14:03:33 <wheals> which is fine, it could have just been elec :)
14:03:47 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: I know... my point was that Abyss:1 is not too lethal right now. (I did die there, of course, but I thought it was okay.)
14:03:51 <PleasingFungus> wheals: tbh, "space warps around you" is a lot more dangerous than "you are cast into the abyss!" on d:1 :)
14:04:02 <ontoclasm> "alive" could be sort of an... overdrive thing
14:04:18 <PleasingFungus> dpeg: I can accept that; I don't have strong feelings either way.
14:04:25 <PleasingFungus> my only dream for abyss is more frequent abyssal stairs
14:04:27 <dpeg> wheals: the new, less severe punishment for changing gods makes Lugonu more attractive
14:04:32 <PleasingFungus> if players want to dive for danger, let them!
14:04:41 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: tell bh! No reason not to, imo.
14:04:42 <Bloax> yes
14:04:48 <Bloax> i have wandered abyss:1 for over a thousand turns before
14:04:56 <Bloax> it is agonizing when you just want to delve to abyss:5
14:05:02 <Bloax> and be over with it
14:05:09 <wheals> hehe, going lucy is also a kind of diving for danger!
14:05:23 <PleasingFungus> in a sense
14:05:32 <Bloax> !lg . DEBe
14:05:32 <Sequell> 2. Bloax the Elven Blade (L27 DEBe of Cheibriados), escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2013-08-17 11:55:24, with 1936742 points after 99617 turns and 8:37:28.
14:05:46 <Bloax> but it's not the most stupid thing you could do
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14:06:02 <wheals> the altars could also maybe be more common, then, though maybe i miss them when i'm not actually looking for one
14:06:14 <dpeg> !tell bh People (real people, i.e. devs) want more Abyss downstairs. Can you give us more?
14:06:15 <Sequell> dpeg: OK, I'll let bh know.
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14:06:57 <wheals> re #8800, maybe you should be able to brand blowguns with evasion
14:07:00 <wheals> or even speed
14:07:40 <wheals> the description should be changed either way, it should be clearer that it's random whether or not it had a brand before
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14:08:39 <wheals> i'd make these changes myself but i'm between computers again
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14:09:02 <dpeg> I have as little time as before... Did anything happen to food? To announced weapon brands? Is Ru considered ready? (Gozag isn't, and I have no time to playtest, it's painful.)
14:09:27 <ontoclasm> dpeg: no rush!
14:10:16 <reaverb> Ru is getting there, food and annouanced weapon brands haven't really moved forward.
14:10:29 <ontoclasm> i obviously have no part in these things, but afaik: food stuff has mostly been pushed back to 0.16, announced weapon brands nobody's decided on, and neither god is "stable" really
14:10:34 <PleasingFungus> ru isn't going to be in 0.15, to be clear...
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14:10:38 <reaverb> dpeg: Also, I think I can do the abyssal stair chance thing, it's just changing one number
14:10:42 <ontoclasm> ru is fun but definitely needs balancing etc.
14:10:45 <reaverb> Yes what PleasingFungus said.
14:11:04 <PleasingFungus> reaverb: what are you thinking of changing it to?
14:11:08 <reaverb> Ru is getting to the state merging in early to mid 0.16 development seems likely in my opinon.
14:11:32 <ontoclasm> reaverb: another thing could be to make it likelier that, when banished, you're in sight of a lucy altar
14:11:37 <dpeg> ontoclasm: thanks. What's to settle on for the weapons? That sounded easy enough back then...
14:12:08 <ontoclasm> dpeg: dunno, i just know nobody's really done anything about it either way
14:12:12 <dpeg> ontoclasm: ime, you see enough Lugonu altars... Banishment is not instadeath, you can walk around and stuff!
14:12:14 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: I'd be interested in hearing what dpeg would change it to, I just mentioned it was an easy change since he asked bh to do it.
14:12:37 <ontoclasm> oh, i know banishment isn't that bad, i just like taunting people
14:12:38 <dpeg> reaverb: I have no opinion on numbers... just double it or something.
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14:13:13 <dpeg> Regarding "no god is stable": not even Qazlal (only been reading about that one).
14:13:30 <ontoclasm> sif muna
14:13:34 <ontoclasm> needs more playtesting
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14:14:05 <reaverb> I think Qazlal will cause no more problems than any other god already in a stable release if put in 0.15, Gozag seems ready to me except possibly for the wrath issue.
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14:16:27 <reaverb> dpeg: Might want to read this post, which I think helps explain some of the Abyss hate:
14:16:36 <reaverb> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=163927#p163927
14:16:38 <PleasingFungus> I was thinking +50% stair generation rate
14:17:19 <PleasingFungus> also IMO that just sounds like a standard complaint about ~normal speed melee monsters~ aka abyss yaks
14:17:28 <PleasingFungus> which is like, that's a crawl problem, insofar as it is a problem
14:17:33 <PleasingFungus> not an abyss problem
14:18:17 <minmay> PleasingFungus: lair doesn't have maprot or trap you inside for 2 hours
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14:18:26 <minmay> or shifting
14:18:32 <wheals> !send PleasingFungus 11 screaming abyss yaks
14:18:32 <Sequell> Sending 11 screaming abyss yaks to PleasingFungus.
14:18:44 <PleasingFungus> minmay: that's why I want to add more abyssal stairs!!!
14:19:29 <minmay> PleasingFungus: I don't like the "decrease your chance of survival in exchange for wasting less real-life time" mechanic either
14:20:47 <dpeg> reaverb: I read that one. The change of approach to the game is actually what I like so much about the Abyss. In my opinion, we can strengthening that point slowly (some of the new monsters seem to help there).
14:20:54 <reaverb> Hmm, some sort of refactoring or something has moved the number which I assumed would be easy to change to manipulate abyssal stair chance.
14:21:02 <PleasingFungus> moved or removed?
14:22:20 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: Not sure, I don't know what change it.
14:22:27 <reaverb> I imagine moved though.
14:22:31 <PleasingFungus> time for Git Magic
14:22:58 <PleasingFungus> minmay: I'd be fine with getting rid of the maprot tbh, or correlating it 1:1 with actual changes to the level
14:23:01 <PleasingFungus> (if it's not already?)
14:23:15 <minmay> what do changes to the level have to do with it? it's an interface screw regardless
14:23:34 <PleasingFungus> ? I don't follow
14:23:51 <wheals> if the level changed in that grid area you don't gain anything by remembering what was there...
14:24:03 <PleasingFungus> minmay: if you get tiles maprotted when and only when the actual tile changes, how is that interface screw?
14:24:05 <minmay> wheals: yes you do
14:24:18 <minmay> wheals: it doesn't change to something that is completely independent of the previous tile
14:24:41 <minmay> (also, making players check the X screen every turn so that they can see which places have changed is pretty awful)
14:24:50 <PleasingFungus> o. yeah that'd be bad
14:25:13 <wheals> so do you have any helpful comments on how to make a horizontally-infinite area work
14:25:17 <minmay> this also brings me to the next thing I wanted to say which is that terrain changing is my #1 most hated thing about abyss
14:25:34 <PleasingFungus> why
14:25:37 <minmay> it makes positioning and tactics even less interesting than they already were in abyss
14:25:53 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: If found the chance, it is line 1258 of abyss.cc, that number (currently 2400) is later run through a one_chance_in so if you wanted to double the chance you would change it to 1200.
14:25:57 <reaverb> s/If/I/
14:26:00 <minmay> at least in old abyss, you actually used terrain tactically
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14:26:05 <PleasingFungus> reaverb: imo change it to 1800
14:26:09 <minmay> that is mostly no longer the case in new abyss
14:26:13 <PleasingFungus> why?
14:26:16 <minmay> ("new" meaning 0.10)
14:26:22 <wheals> wow, i didn't realize you knew how i played
14:26:22 <reaverb> I have to go and I'm not sure what sort of change people want to make to it.
14:26:24 <minmay> PleasingFungus: because the terrain changes!
14:26:27 <minmay> okay correction
14:26:36 <minmay> at least in old abyss, good players actually used terrain tactically
14:26:43 <minmay> now nobody does
14:26:44 <PleasingFungus> your argument seems kind of circular
14:26:45 <minmay> because nobody can
14:26:49 <minmay> because the terrain changes every turn
14:26:59 <PleasingFungus> I use terrain tactically in the abyss all the time, though?
14:26:59 <ontoclasm> most of the terrain doesn't change
14:27:13 <PleasingFungus> I think we're defining this differently
14:27:14 <wheals> hyperbole doesn't help your arguments
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14:27:18 <minmay> yes, that is why I said "mostly no longer the case" because there are a few places where you do
14:27:35 <PleasingFungus> I'm talking about things like standing in corridors. you're talking about your standard minmayish tactics of running away from everything constantly and only ever fighting one guy at a time?
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14:27:43 <minmay> but the impact of terrain tactics is dramatically smaller than in old abyss, and extremely dramatically smaller than anywhere else in the game
14:27:44 <PleasingFungus> if I'm understanding you right?
14:28:00 <PleasingFungus> because I'm gonna be honest, I have less than zero interest in supporting minmaying
14:28:02 <dpeg> I believe that minmay is a player who particularly dislikes having to slow down (note: he never said it like that, this is just my private observation over the years), and then I can see where he is coming from. For me, terrain changing never was an issue (I play like a snail).
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14:28:23 <wheals> ok that was an overly rude way to leave, i apologise
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14:28:37 <minmay> I certainly dislike the features that are designed to force slowing down and nothing else, but that is not why I dislike abyss shifting
14:29:04 <minmay> I'm talking about things like using walls to block LOS and control monster movement
14:29:15 <minmay> and "running away from everything constantly" is exactly what you do in abyss...
14:29:25 <minmay> you do it even more in new abyss than old abyss
14:29:52 <dpeg> minmay: I am not a good player, but I always have this decision whether to kill off some of the fast pursuers, or to keep going.
14:29:58 <ontoclasm> but you can still do those things
14:30:00 <PleasingFungus> man, I think we are basically playing different games
14:30:09 <Bloax> we are
14:30:10 <minmay> have you played old abyss?
14:30:12 <PleasingFungus> yes
14:30:14 <ontoclasm> they just work like 95% of the time instead of 100%
14:30:14 <PleasingFungus> a long time ago
14:30:18 <PleasingFungus> it was really shit and boring
14:30:23 <minmay> yes
14:30:27 <minmay> and the new one is even shittier and boringer imo
14:30:37 <PleasingFungus> that is an opinion you are allowed to have!
14:30:44 <Bloax> iunno man
14:30:51 <Bloax> at least it's not the exact same things you meet outside the abyss now
14:30:57 <minmay> i think terrain changing greatly reduces the impact of player skill and increases the impact of luck
14:31:00 <PleasingFungus> I don't think anyone on the dev team agrees with you, probably because you have completely failed to demonstrate the problems you claim exist
14:31:05 <PleasingFungus> but it is okay for you to have opinions!
14:31:49 <ontoclasm> well, i mean, he has a point
14:31:52 <MarvinPA> i definitely agree with that last line and would like to substantially reduce abyss morphing
14:31:54 <minmay> I'm not sure how I need to demonstrate this? it seems self-evident to me that constantly changing terrain makes terrain tactics a lot less useful
14:32:28 <ontoclasm> i don't think terrain shifting is the main reason, but new abyss is a lot less clear-cut in terms of what to do to "win" it
14:32:30 <eb_> uh
14:32:32 <minmay> as does monsters randomly appearing next to you (but I guess that can very rarely happen with teleport traps elsewhere)
14:32:54 <Kvaak> well most places don't have aliches or hell sentinels
14:33:03 <minmay> ontoclasm: I wouldn't really say that, the overarching strategy is still "wander until you find an exit"
14:33:03 <PleasingFungus> I could survive abyss having more frequent complete terrain shifts in exchange for tile-by-tile less terrain morphing, if that made people happier
14:33:06 <eb_> if anything terrain changes force the player into more decisions
14:33:11 <MarvinPA> ideally to just morph in short bursts or something rather than doing it constantly
14:33:14 <eb_> it's just a different flavour of tactics
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14:33:28 <eb_> where you adapt per turn instead of per encounter
14:33:35 <dpeg> MarvinPA: morphing can probably be improved if it comes in stages (i.e. you see a few turns in advances what's likely to change... then you could even (try to) use it to your advantage)./
14:33:43 <PleasingFungus> that sounds quite complex
14:33:54 <minmay> I suppose I should mention that if you like octagon levels I don't expect to convince you to dislike abyss shifting
14:34:15 <PleasingFungus> I do not like octagon levels very much, no
14:34:48 <minmay> they both do the same thing (make almost all squares on a level basically the same as each other)
14:34:55 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: not necessarily... Just colour walls/floor in patches (3x3 up to 5x5, say), and that's a "hot spot" for soonish Abyss morphing
14:35:20 <eb_> I'd argue that octagon levels are the opposite of abyss shifting
14:35:23 <PleasingFungus> ah - I thought you were going to provide a "preview"
14:35:24 <ontoclasm> minmay: i think the key thing here is that terrain usage and running away are ridiculously good in crawl
14:35:27 <PleasingFungus> which would be complicated!
14:35:32 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: no, that would be quite complex :)
14:35:37 <PleasingFungus> :)
14:35:39 <PleasingFungus> anyway, lunch
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14:35:47 <minmay> okay, well, if you don't like crawl's current terrain tactics, why do you only "fix" them in one branch?
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14:35:59 <dpeg> and work here
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14:36:31 <ontoclasm> it's okaythat they're strong
14:36:45 <ontoclasm> but then you can sometimes make them less trong, to make other things happen
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14:37:10 <ontoclasm> as you frequently point out, you should basically never fight more than one monster at once
14:37:42 <minmay> I basically never fight more than one monster at once in abyss, either
14:37:49 <ontoclasm> that's good advice, but if that's the best strategy in literally every part of the game, then it's gonna get samey
14:37:52 <minmay> (well, when it matters)
14:38:04 <ontoclasm> i didn't say the abyss did a -great- job of this
14:38:14 <minmay> do you think abyss makes it less of a good strategy?
14:38:31 <Bloax> abyss suffers from the lobon syndrome
14:38:41 <minmay> even theoretically? I don't really see how it could do that, and certainly haven't experienced it in practice
14:38:44 <ontoclasm> no, just somewhat harder to pull off
14:38:44 <ontoclasm> (and not that much harder)
14:38:57 <Bloax> it's either a complete pushover, stabs you a bit every now and then
14:39:02 <ontoclasm> i guess "harder to pull off" counts as making it worse in a sense
14:39:09 <Bloax> or it just goes straight to the point and murders the hell out of you
14:39:27 <minmay> I don't think it's really much harder to do in the situations where you actually want to fight things in abyss
14:39:36 <minmay> those situations are just a lot less frequent in abyss than in other branches
14:39:45 <minmay> since abyss is strongly biased towards just not fighting things
14:40:01 <ontoclasm> well, the abyss doesn't push you towards "fight multiple things," it pushes you towards "escape from stuff instead of picking them off"
14:40:05 <minmay> yes
14:40:50 <ontoclasm> both of which are, at the very least, different from the Standard Crawl Experience
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14:41:58 <minmay> I don't see how terrain shifting is necessary for that
14:42:05 <minmay> you ran away from most things in old abyss, too!
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14:43:03 <ontoclasm> i know that when i play, i spend nearly all the time attracting individual monsters, then murdering them alone; vaults and such where i can't do this for whatever reason are kind of nice
14:43:03 <ontoclasm> well, it isn't
14:43:03 <ontoclasm> i don't really like terrain shifting either
14:43:03 <ontoclasm> but i support the underlying idea of making normal tactics work less well
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14:45:45 <ontoclasm> if i were to remake the abyss, i think i would make it a big straight line, maybe pre-mapped, without shifting or anything
14:45:55 <ontoclasm> you start at one end, the exit's at the other
14:46:37 <ontoclasm> so you just have to run a gauntlet to get out
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14:47:25 <ontoclasm> since that's what the abyss essentially is; you just don't know which direction to go or how far it is
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14:48:49 <minmay> well, the direction you go is meaningless since they are all the same
14:49:26 <minmay> unless you accidentally make a circle or something because maprot lol
14:49:29 <ontoclasm> yes
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15:08:43 <Bloax> ??Hellfire[2]
15:08:44 <Sequell> hellfire[2/4]: Comes in two flavors. Hellions, deep elf high priests, and draconian zealots use hellfire bursts, which can explode anywhere in LOS and do 3d15 damage. Deep elf sorcerers, brimstone fiends, and draconian scorchers use vanilla hellfire, which is 3d20 but requires a clear path.
15:08:50 <Bloax> ??Hellfire[4]
15:08:50 <Sequell> hellfire[4/4]: Player (demonspawn) hellfire does up to 3d42 damage, depending on level, and costs 15% of your max health to use. Ignores rF and AC just like monster hellfire. Monsters with rHellfire are completely immune.
15:08:58 <Bloax> okay
15:09:00 <Bloax> ??Hellfire[3]
15:09:00 <Sequell> hellfire[3/4]: Also an unrandart +6,+6 crossbow {rF++, rC-, MR+} which shoots hellfire bolts (hellfire elemental damage and exploding); in 0.15, a +6 arbalest with the aforementioned properties. Same damage as regular exploding ammo (2d5), but note that, being hellfire, it ignores AC.
15:09:12 <Bloax> aww, no triple crossbows here
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15:17:16 <PleasingFungus> !tell Lasty Sacrificing evocations & earth magic means it is extraordinarily difficult to get the slime rune; sacrificing transloc as well might make it literally impossible without converting to Lugonu or luring a deep troll earth mage in, I think.
15:17:17 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let lasty know.
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15:21:41 <Lasty2> PleasingFungus: Is that a problem?
15:22:50 <PleasingFungus> generally we try to avoid locking players out from runes
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15:24:44 <PleasingFungus> does sacrificing evo lock out evocable rings/randarts?
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15:28:07 <Lasty2> yes
15:28:17 <Lasty2> Hmm
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15:29:56 <PleasingFungus> this could also basically lock you out of certain hell endings, barring finding potions of flight (or even with that, if you're a mummy)
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15:30:09 <Lasty2> I'm not sure what to do about that, unless it's to open up one gap in each of the walls upon the death of TRJ
15:30:26 <PleasingFungus> basically "sacrifice evo" is incredibly broad
15:30:29 <Lasty2> or to never offer to block Earth Magic
15:30:30 <PleasingFungus> which is cool
15:30:33 <PleasingFungus> but it may be too broad
15:30:33 <Lasty2> PleasingFungus: it sure is
15:30:44 <Lasty2> PleasingFungus: Suggestions about how to address it?
15:31:35 <Lasty2> Oh, I another option would be not to offer no evo if you've sacrificed Earth Magic and vice versa
15:32:01 <PleasingFungus> or air magic, or charms
15:32:27 <Lasty2> What's wrong w/ air magic / charms/
15:33:52 <PleasingFungus> if you're locked out of (air magic or charms) and evo, you don't have flight barring finding a very lucky boots of flight, or a bunch of !flight
15:33:59 <PleasingFungus> which means you can't do certain hell endings
15:34:05 <PleasingFungus> some in geh, some in coc
15:34:11 <Lasty2> Ah, true
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15:35:34 <PleasingFungus> arguably that is a problem with those hell endings rather than with ru
15:37:05 <minmay> uh
15:37:10 <minmay> if sac evo doesnt stop boots of flight then it probably should
15:37:30 <minmay> since the flight on those is evoked
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15:38:02 <Lasty2> it does
15:39:39 <Lasty2> Or at least it is intended to
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15:42:37 <PleasingFungus> oh. I was thinking that it evoced to cancel, rather than to activate (if that makes any sense)
15:42:44 <PleasingFungus> (since it goes on automatically when you wear them)
15:43:19 <PleasingFungus> anyway yeah, that means mummies would just be screwed in some geh ends and most coc ends
15:43:36 <PleasingFungus> I guess they could still wear =tele
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15:44:50 <minmay> PleasingFungus: the real fix is to let mummies walk through deep water since they are unbreathing
15:44:56 <minmay> lava too. might as well
15:45:55 <PleasingFungus> I literally am working on the former :)
15:45:55 <PleasingFungus> lava probably not, though
15:46:05 <minmay> man you suck
15:46:06 <PleasingFungus> it's too orange. doesn't match their fashion palette at all
15:46:16 <PleasingFungus> more of a summer color. mummies are winter
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15:47:28 <|amethyst> Lasty2:  boots of flight auto-enable when worn
15:47:34 <|amethyst> Lasty2:  and it doesn't appear to block that
15:47:47 <|amethyst> s/flight/flying/
15:48:06 <|amethyst> it does, however, keep you from disabling them
15:49:45 <ontoclasm> lacking artifice, you have no clue how to turn the damn things off
15:50:22 <ontoclasm> also, for digging, fr: scroll of crystallization
15:50:29 <ontoclasm> or whatever the brogue thing is called
15:51:47 <PleasingFungus> ?
15:51:58 <PleasingFungus> Turn rock into salt?
15:52:13 <ontoclasm> scroll of shattering maybe?
15:52:27 <ontoclasm> it converts a bunch of walls around you to transparent crystal which then falls apart slowly
15:53:33 <PleasingFungus> it seems like that'd be very rarely useful, unless it replaced /dig
15:53:44 <PleasingFungus> or unless it also worked on stone/metal (it shouldn't do this)
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15:54:18 <gammafunk> # A mock-up of Forest, made well before serious attempts at the branch.
15:54:25 <gammafunk> from minmay_lair_end_enchanted_forest
15:54:32 <gammafunk> finally, someone to blame
15:54:56 <PleasingFungus> lol if you aren't always blaming minmay
15:55:02 <gammafunk> dang
15:55:07 <PleasingFungus> not for anything in particular. just generally
15:55:58 <gammafunk> !vault minmay_lair_end_enchanted_forest
15:55:58 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/lair.des;hb=HEAD#l2667
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16:01:47 <Lasty2> Hmm
16:02:10 <Lasty2> I guess if flight boots stay the same, then that solves that issue
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16:02:16 <Lasty2> even if it's a little goofy
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16:02:20 <PleasingFungus> uh
16:02:24 <PleasingFungus> most players won't find flightboots
16:02:28 <Lasty2> But I'm not sure what to do about digging/slimy rune
16:02:30 <PleasingFungus> without scumming
16:02:44 <Lasty2> Well, players aren't guaranteed digging/disintegration either
16:02:52 <Lasty2> admittedly, it's more common
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16:03:25 <PleasingFungus> somewhat, yes
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16:07:17 <PleasingFungus> more to the point, without ru, players have access to digging, disint, LRD, IOOD, Shatter, CTele, and probably other stuff I'm forgetting
16:07:34 <Lightli> yeah
16:08:04 <PleasingFungus> which is a wide enough selection that they're almost guaranteed to have one way to enter the slimevaults (even without pledging to jiyva!), if not more than one
16:08:07 <Lasty2> Adding a scroll that could do it or opening one tile by default would fix the issue and remove loot  from the equation
16:08:29 <PleasingFungus> adding a scroll would remove loot from the equation...? ; )
16:08:41 <Lightli> for cocytus, maybe make it possible to reach antaeus via usage of power leap?
16:09:16 <PleasingFungus> oh. I forgot power leap was a thing
16:09:17 <PleasingFungus> ??power leap
16:09:18 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled power_leap in my learndb.
16:09:26 <Lasty2> It's a 3-tile ctele
16:09:29 <PleasingFungus> oh
16:09:37 <Lasty2> I think it works under -ctele, but I could be wrong
16:09:48 <Lasty2> It's meant to
16:09:51 <PleasingFungus> that might or might not be enough for coc; it's certainly enough for geh
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16:10:40 <PleasingFungus> if it's not enough for coc, it should be, and it'd be easy to tweak the vaults to add little hop-islands
16:10:46 <Lasty2> yeah
16:10:51 <PleasingFungus> what's the cost for using power-leap? long exh cooldown?
16:10:58 <|amethyst> err
16:11:00 <Lasty2> yup
16:11:02 <Lasty2> and that's all
16:11:06 <|amethyst> this is about sacrificing evo, isn't it?
16:11:07 <|amethyst> oh
16:11:09 <ontoclasm> ruians don't fly like little pansies
16:11:10 <TS__> What is "ru"?
16:11:17 <ontoclasm> they LEAP
16:11:17 <|amethyst> you mean ru's jump
16:11:18 <PleasingFungus> TS__: I, Asshole
16:11:19 <|amethyst> not the boots
16:11:20 <TS__> Oh
16:11:29 <Lasty2> yup
16:11:32 <PleasingFungus> oh btw - an update from the guy who sacrificed earth magic & evo & killed TRJ
16:11:37 <TS__> Nevermind, thought it was some new god again
16:11:42 <PleasingFungus> "Update: Got Jorgun to follow me and blow up the vaults. The jellies ate a quarter of the treasure but I got the rune"
16:11:45 <Lasty2> lol
16:12:06 <TS__> Will he just be called "ru"?
16:12:08 <Lasty2> PleasingFungus: they could also ctele in unless they sacrificed charms/translocations
16:12:10 <PleasingFungus> I told him to "get jorgrun or a deep troll earth mage"; didn't honestly expect Jorgrun would be around & still alive, though!
16:12:13 <PleasingFungus> Lasty2: they ddi
16:12:31 <PleasingFungus> I suggested using ctele but missed that they'd sacrificed charms
16:12:50 <Lightli> ahahaha that is hilarious
16:12:54 <Lasty2> Could they just random-tele until they get in? :D
16:13:05 <Lightli> if they had a ring of tele probably
16:13:08 <PleasingFungus> yep
16:13:15 <PleasingFungus> with enough patience
16:13:16 <Lasty2> But good job on Jorgrun
16:13:19 <ontoclasm> btw, is ctele still a spell
16:13:21 <PleasingFungus> http://pastebin.com/M1aNvJyu this was their mut list
16:13:23 <PleasingFungus> ontoclasm: yes
16:13:23 <|amethyst> no they can't
16:13:25 <Lasty2> afaik yes
16:13:34 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: not even after they kill trj?
16:13:38 <ontoclasm> okay :C
16:13:42 <PleasingFungus> haha
16:13:52 <|amethyst> the insides are all no_rtele_into
16:14:09 <PleasingFungus> ahh
16:14:11 <PleasingFungus> hm
16:14:21 <ontoclasm> draw "the concept of having the ability to control where one will teleport to"
16:14:37 <|amethyst> could maybe remove that when trj dies
16:14:53 <PleasingFungus> still not really ideal
16:15:03 <PleasingFungus> given, you know. random teleportation & prayer
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16:15:15 <Lasty2> I still think it's reasonable to open one gap in each quadrant when TRJ dies
16:15:22 <Lasty2> it would remove dependence on more common loot
16:15:28 <ontoclasm> after trj dies, slime:6 has +ctele
16:15:36 <minmay> it would also destroy all the loot
16:15:38 <minmay> because jellies
16:15:50 <Lasty2> Eventually, yes
16:15:51 <|amethyst> ontoclasm:  the guy sacrificed Charms, Evo, and Earth
16:16:01 <minmay> it would do it pretty fast since killing trj makes a lot of jellies
16:16:03 <PleasingFungus> not really "eventually"
16:16:05 <PleasingFungus> yeah
16:16:16 <|amethyst> ontoclasm:  oh, or are you suggesting all teleports become controlled
16:16:21 <Lasty2> Yeah, but all those jellies are tracking you
16:16:23 <ontoclasm> |amethyst: it was a joke -- "+ctele" as in all teleports are controlled
16:17:03 <PleasingFungus> Lasty2: the guy asked if cataclysm would affect jellies behind transparent stone - I assume it shouldn't?
16:17:09 <|amethyst> could drop a short-range portal
16:17:17 <Lasty2> it shouldn't, but it
16:17:19 <Lasty2> it might
16:17:23 <Lasty2> if I did it wrong
16:17:50 <|amethyst> (I guess you'd need five of them)
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16:19:37 <Lasty2> I suppose another approach is to give cataclysm a chance of shattering rock walls
16:20:00 <ontoclasm> eventually i have to face the music and draw clouds as well :C
16:20:59 <PleasingFungus> Lasty2: sounds thematic, doesn't stomp on LRD/Shatter, since it's just stone. might make the ability a bit weaker
16:21:06 <PleasingFungus> since usually you don't want to be destroying walls in combat
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16:21:32 <Lasty2> yeah
16:21:44 <|amethyst> Lasty2:  oh, one technical matter I noticed
16:21:58 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
16:22:08 <|amethyst> Lasty2:  the school sacrifice mutations cannot be gained/removed with &] because of the capital letters
16:22:36 <|amethyst> Lasty2:  could have the mutation-matching code there lowercase the mutation names, not just the search string
16:23:01 <Lasty2> ah, I see
16:23:17 <Lasty2> I could also lower case them to match current expectations
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16:24:33 <|amethyst> possibly... we usually capitalise school names, but not in the names of staves for example
16:24:49 <Lasty2> yeah
16:24:59 <Lasty2> I can do whichever
16:25:18 <|amethyst> I guess lowercasing the mutation name is the simplest
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16:26:51 <|amethyst> but I don't have a strong preference
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17:04:45 <Lantell> Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.15-a0-2130-g28e4b74 (34)
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17:07:05 <Cheibriados> 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.15-a0-2131-g4fe79cb: Breath ability icons 10(10 minutes ago, 10 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4fe79cb50092
17:07:05 <Cheibriados> 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.15-a0-2132-g2183352: Lazy bottle blood icon 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=218335218139
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17:10:53 * ontoclasm breathes. You die.
17:11:58 -!- demiskeleton has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:14:16 * Zannick dies. You breathe.
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17:15:36 <ontoclasm> deep
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17:16:02 <ontoclasm> fr rename "breathe lightning" to "sneeze lightning"
17:16:44 <reaverb> ontoclasm: Could do that for one of the joke languages.
17:16:54 <Zannick> snightning
17:17:04 <reaverb> Although I would hesitate to add another special case for a joke langugage <_< >_>
17:17:07 <ontoclasm> joke lightning where everything is translated into ##crawl slang
17:17:17 <ontoclasm> er
17:17:20 <ontoclasm> language
17:17:31 <ontoclasm> lightning is no joke, kids
17:18:21 <reaverb> Mara the Immune to Bread Rations comes into view
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17:29:39 <ontoclasm> why aren'y more of the draconian breaths available from random muts?
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17:37:20 <reaverb> ontoclasm: Hmm, abilties on random mutations do not work as well as passives because the cost space on the ability menu, but I suppose that also applies to Spit Poison.
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17:39:25 <reaverb> Also IIRC draconian breath powers drop off in power pretty quickly.
17:42:32 <ontoclasm> well, you could do something like... you can only have one breath mutation at a time; the weights currently on breathe fire and spit poison would instead go to "get a random breath"
17:43:10 <ontoclasm> and of course if you lose the breath and then roll it again you'll get a different one
17:43:50 <reaverb> ontoclasm: Yes, scales mutation do something similar.
17:49:16 <ProzacElf> ...what happens if you have 2 or 3 levels in a scale mutation and you get a different type of scale?  or can that not happen?
17:49:45 <ProzacElf> i recently got my bone plates replaced with black scales from drinking potions, but the plates were at level 1
17:50:05 <|amethyst> ProzacElf:  there is a 3-scale limit
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17:50:44 <ProzacElf> how do you mean?
17:51:02 <|amethyst> if you have 3 levels across all scale mutations, you can't get more
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17:52:17 <|amethyst> (also, Ds can't get the "wrong" scales at all)
17:52:25 <ProzacElf> oh, ok
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17:52:33 <ProzacElf> that helps a good deal of my confusion probably
17:53:06 <ProzacElf> so my guy who lost his bone plates and got black scales could only get one more scale level?
17:53:18 <ProzacElf> either black 2 or whatever replaced it?
17:53:42 <|amethyst> if your guy lost the bone plates and got one level of scales, that's only one
17:54:04 <ProzacElf> ah, ok
17:54:06 <|amethyst> probably the potion did the "remove a mutation" thing
17:54:12 <|amethyst> it wasn't the scales replacing the others
17:54:19 <ProzacElf> ok, now it all makes sense
17:54:34 <ProzacElf> i forgot the potions could remove mutations too
17:54:56 <ProzacElf> i almost never drink them intentionally
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18:08:55 <PleasingFungus> ontoclasm: imo most of the active muts are kind of bat
18:08:57 <PleasingFungus> *bad
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18:11:01 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: Which kind of bad, design or power level?
18:11:08 <PleasingFungus> both, realy
18:11:10 <PleasingFungus> *really
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18:12:17 <PleasingFungus> bad in terms of power level because they tend to be pretty weak by the time you actually get muts (this may not be true for xom worshippers); bad design-wise because it's not just "oh, +2 str, who cares" ignorable bad, it's another option to you, something else taking up headspace
18:12:24 <PleasingFungus> if that makes any sense
18:12:31 <reaverb> It does to me.
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18:14:57 <ontoclasm> yeah, i agree
18:15:45 <Lightli> yeah
18:15:55 <Lightli> those mutations don't scale well at all
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18:18:40 <reaverb> Hmm, I'm tempted to remove bobbens_ice_dragon_lair because it's impossible to tell there's loot / which monsters are inside the chamber while it is distinguishable enough to be looked up in the .des file.
18:18:53 <reaverb> (Also a water ring doesn't strike me as very interesting)
18:19:03 <reaverb> But I guess glass could hand that information to the player.
18:19:48 <PleasingFungus> !vault bobbens_ice_dragon_lair
18:19:48 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/lair.des;hb=HEAD#l665
18:20:07 <PleasingFungus> I... wait, why do you want to remove it?
18:20:45 <reaverb> It's impossible to tell there's loot and an ice dragon inside the chamber without looking it up in lair.des
18:21:13 <PleasingFungus> is your complaint that an ice dragon is too dangerous for lair without a warning?
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18:22:59 <reaverb> I think an ice dragon is fine the lair without a warming, but you shouldn't get a warning iff you're willing to look up strange level features in .des files.
18:23:22 <PleasingFungus> imho that just sounds like "remove vaults"
18:23:26 <reaverb> s/warming/warning/
18:24:46 <PleasingFungus> I don't understand what's special or distinctive about this vault in any way. it's not hidden or lua-y, it's just a dragon
18:25:58 <PleasingFungus> oh, nvm, I'm reading the vault a little closer. it is a bit hidden, isn't it?
18:26:14 <reaverb> A little bit, I managed to notice it enough to investigate.
18:26:29 <reaverb> But I could see somebody not paying attention missing it.
18:26:45 <reaverb> When I say the white imp my first thought was "Did I miss an Ice Cave message somewhere?"
18:26:49 <reaverb> s/say/saw/
18:27:10 <PleasingFungus> I guess I'd be fine with adding some glass somewhere - in the back of the cave, maybe
18:27:12 <reaverb> There's also a potentially hidden item but the SUBST would have to land so perfectly I don't think it matters.
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18:27:26 <MarvinPA> that does not look like a vault where glass is necessary
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18:28:13 <PleasingFungus> MarvinPA: if I'm reading this right, it ends up walled off by rock?
18:28:40 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: No it doesn't, there's also a deep water path in from what I can tell.
18:28:47 <PleasingFungus> the "'"s?
18:28:48 <reaverb> s/also/always/
18:28:50 <MarvinPA> yes it's pretty obviously a thing
18:29:03 <PleasingFungus> I guess I need to poke at it in-game
18:29:11 <PleasingFungus> hard to visualize what all those substs end up creating
18:30:05 <gammafunk> looks like you'd have to have incredibly bad luck for it to be walled off
18:30:44 <gammafunk> oh I guess not that incredibly bad, but still pretty bad
18:30:51 <PleasingFungus> I think all you'd need is for two "'"s to roll a 12/28 chance
18:30:56 <PleasingFungus> the ones in the bottom-right
18:31:04 <PleasingFungus> oh, and another in the bottom-left, actually
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18:31:24 <PleasingFungus> so that's... an 8% chance?
18:31:26 <gammafunk> it probably should just use an NSUBST to force at least one to be open
18:31:51 <PleasingFungus> I'd be fine with that
18:31:55 <PleasingFungus> I like nsubst :)
18:32:54 <reaverb> Horray for NSUBST
18:32:59 <gammafunk> tbh I have no idea why he's randomly choosing rock or stone like that with the ?
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18:33:15 <PleasingFungus> aesthetics, I assume?
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18:33:22 <reaverb> gammafunk: Presumably the same reason the sword in the stone vault does it <_< >_>
18:33:26 <PleasingFungus> to make it more obviously weird & out of place
18:33:28 <gammafunk> well the effect would be pretty ugly
18:33:51 <PleasingFungus> he does the same thing with his next dragon vault, one down
18:34:01 <gammafunk> sword in the stone used to just be actual stone
18:34:04 <gammafunk> don't know what it is now
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18:34:39 <PleasingFungus> last I heard it was just rock?
18:34:44 <PleasingFungus> !vault sword_in_the_stone
18:34:45 <Sequell> Couldn't find sword_in_the_stone in the Crawl source tree
18:34:50 <gammafunk> if he's going for making it diggable, generally better to make contiguous sections be either stone or rock, depending on what you want diggable
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18:34:58 <reaverb> !vault sword_in_stone
18:34:59 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des;hb=HEAD#l5833
18:35:15 <gammafunk> if he's going for appearence, stone and rock randomly interspersed is pretty ugly
18:35:40 <reaverb> gammafunk: I don't think anybody would mind if you changed it either way.
18:36:15 <gammafunk> reaverb: well you're going to change it, not me, since you complained about it initially :p
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18:38:57 <reaverb> gammafunk: Ok, I'll remove the c
18:39:24 <reaverb> Hmm, what is ` in that vault? Some SUBST I'm missing?
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18:39:48 <PleasingFungus> no_random_tele_into
18:39:53 <reaverb> Oh, hmm, that vault can drop up to five god_items
18:39:58 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: Ah, Thanks.
18:40:02 <gammafunk> yeah, just a glyph for that kprop
18:40:20 <reaverb> err, s/god_item/good_item/
18:40:39 <reaverb> (FR: god_item)
18:41:08 <gammafunk> boy that _ bit is odd as well
18:42:14 <PleasingFungus> yeah that's just baffling
18:42:21 <PleasingFungus> it's a secret!
18:42:27 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: maybe!
18:42:29 <gammafunk> or not!
18:42:39 <PleasingFungus> probably not, yes
18:42:55 <PleasingFungus> huh
18:43:00 <gammafunk> reaverb: you can just fix the minimum of what's necessary to prevent it from being a dragon tomb if you like; the appearence aspect is certainly subjective
18:43:00 <reaverb> It's a 1/4 chance of a normal item, with an abusrdly rare chance of being cut off that would be fixed by NSUBST or just adding some w tiles.
18:43:06 <PleasingFungus> it does mean that autoexplore is guaranteed to stop right outside the area that's most likely to have an entrance inside
18:43:09 <gammafunk> but I'd probably edit that vault some if it were a submission
18:43:23 <PleasingFungus> which is honestly pretty clever
18:43:29 <reaverb> gammafunk: Heh, I did the appearance thing first because it was easiest.
18:43:40 <reaverb> Making those ? => x makes the vault much more readable.
18:43:56 <reaverb> Still not sure what the " is doing though.
18:45:29 <PleasingFungus> Is "G" meaningful in .des?
18:46:12 <MarvinPA> yes
18:46:16 <MarvinPA> (statue)
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18:47:11 <reaverb> I can imagine some hilarity occuring from somebody thinking 8 is .des for statue.
18:47:31 <PleasingFungus> probably another attempt to make the vault more noticeable & obviously weird from outside
18:47:39 <PleasingFungus> since there aren't many statues in lair, usually :)
18:47:44 <reaverb> (The V in the vault is also a dry fountain)
18:47:55 <PleasingFungus> I really quite like that _, tbh.
18:49:58 <reaverb> Is an average of 2 good_item in that vault too much?
18:50:38 <reaverb> (Which is * IIRC)
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18:54:34 <reaverb> http://bpaste.net/show/DRDbKL2a6aOREdvqILJe/
18:54:59 <PleasingFungus> an ice dragon is pretty dangerous, in mid-lair
18:55:40 <PleasingFungus> especially given the terrain
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18:59:32 <gammafunk> yeah 2 * is certainly fine
18:59:38 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: So do you want to make any changes because of that?
18:59:48 <reaverb> gammafunk: Ok, I guess I'll push that.
19:01:44 <reaverb> I imagine spaces at the end of line in the mailmap are bad, correct?
19:01:57 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0a1/20140529030207]]
19:03:49 <Cheibriados> 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-2133-ga041b3e: bobbens_ice_dragon_lair edits 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 12-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a041b3e6fc90
19:05:50 <reaverb> Hmm, 4 dcss-iashol players on CSZO right now.
19:05:55 <reaverb> I think that's a new record!!!
19:08:58 <Cheibriados> 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-2134-g307182f: Remove spaces at eol in the mailmap 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=307182f3a50d
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19:34:32 <SamB> reaverb: well, they aren't GOOD
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19:34:49 <reaverb> SamB: Heh.
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20:00:39 <Kramin> !help source
20:00:39 <Sequell> !source: Displays lines from the crawl source. The single argument should be either a filename (relative to the source directory) with an optional line range, or a string to search for as part of a function/#define/vault name. Prepend = to the string to force the search to match exactly.
20:01:34 <Kramin> !source =player_evasion
20:01:34 <Sequell> Couldn't understand =player_evasion
20:02:07 <Kramin> !source ="player_evasion"
20:02:07 <Sequell> Couldn't understand ="player_evasion"
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20:03:10 <PleasingFungus> !source player_evasion
20:03:11 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/player.cc;hb=HEAD#l2469
20:03:24 <PleasingFungus> oh, I see
20:03:24 -!- rockygargoyle has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20:03:25 <PleasingFungus> hm
20:03:31 <PleasingFungus> !cmd !source
20:03:31 <Sequell> Built-in: !source => https://github.com/greensnark/dcss_sequell/blob/master/commands/source.pl
20:03:46 <Kramin> why is the '=' thing not working?
20:04:03 <reaverb> Kramin: I'm not sure why it would work >_>
20:04:18 <Kramin> !help source
20:04:18 <Sequell> !source: Displays lines from the crawl source. The single argument should be either a filename (relative to the source directory) with an optional line range, or a string to search for as part of a function/#define/vault name. Prepend = to the string to force the search to match exactly.
20:04:21 <Kramin> ^
20:04:21 <reaverb> Somebody would have to specifically program !source to handle that alternative synthax.
20:04:30 <reaverb> Oh, oops.
20:04:44 <reaverb> !source =player_evasion
20:04:44 <Sequell> Couldn't understand =player_evasion
20:04:54 <reaverb> Hmm, that's weird.
20:06:05 <PleasingFungus> I have a terrible foreboding that I'm refactoring code that I've refactored before
20:06:10 <reaverb> Kramin: I am about to look at that EV thing, I'm just managing a few differant things at once >_> <_<
20:06:12 <PleasingFungus> and I'm refactoring it back to what it was before I touched it
20:06:18 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: Ha.
20:06:26 <reaverb> git revert
20:06:53 <geekosaur> bug
20:07:20 * geekosaur just looked at the source... doc says = but code says !
20:07:28 <geekosaur> !source !player_evasion
20:07:28 <Sequell> Couldn't understand !player_evasion
20:07:32 <geekosaur> hm
20:07:46 <geekosaur> even buggier then :p
20:07:46 <reaverb> Kramin: One problem with that EV formula proposal is that its better than current formula for the player in all cases, that's fine if it creates intresting decisions, but Dodging is already worth training.
20:08:19 <geekosaur> right, the code to implement = (spelled !) is there but the parse-command-line function doesn't permit it
20:08:24 <geekosaur> buuuuuuug
20:08:33 <Kramin> yeah…, but you can't really get any worse than 0 benefit
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20:09:41 <reaverb> Kramin: What I was thinking about was making it so you would have less EV at the upper end of skill levels, after overcoming the EV penalty.
20:10:01 <reaverb> Maybe that's the wrong way to go about this.
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20:10:40 <reaverb> Hmm, can !help be editted?
20:10:55 <reaverb> !help !source Displays lines from the crawl source. The single argument should be either a filename (relative to the source directory) with an optional line range, or a string to search for as part of a function/#define/vault name.
20:10:55 <Sequell> !source: Displays lines from the crawl source. The single argument should be either a filename (relative to the source directory) with an optional line range, or a string to search for as part of a function/#define/vault name. Prepend = to the string to force the search to match exactly.
20:11:01 <reaverb> !help !help
20:11:01 <Sequell> !help: Displays help on a command. For a list of commands, see !cmdinfo.
20:11:08 <reaverb> !cmdinfo
20:11:09 <Sequell> !apt !cdefine !cmd !cmdinfo !fn !ftw !function !gamesby !help !kw !learn !lg !lm !messages !nick !rng !seen !source !streak !tell !time !vault !won !wtf .echo
20:11:47 <PleasingFungus> huh. if a dragon-formed player somehow stopped flying, they'd still be safe in water.
20:11:49 <Kramin> the behaviour at high dodging would still be the same as before
20:11:52 <PleasingFungus> can they do that?
20:11:59 <geekosaur> no, it's in the source
20:12:13 <geekosaur> line 8 of https://github.com/greensnark/dcss_sequell/blob/master/commands/source.pl
20:12:54 <MarvinPA> PleasingFungus: roots thingy
20:13:15 <reaverb> Kramin: Yes, I was thinking of tweaking that formula so the behavior at high dodging would be differant (worse for the player), since getting the earlier skill levels of dodging would have less opprtunity cost.
20:13:21 <PleasingFungus> shambling mangroves, right
20:13:43 <PleasingFungus> nope
20:13:48 <PleasingFungus> doesn't seem to take me out of the sky
20:14:08 <MarvinPA> works for me
20:14:18 <MarvinPA> they don't use it if you're over water or something, i think
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20:14:30 <PleasingFungus> yeah I figured that but I'm just flying over floor
20:14:39 <PleasingFungus> oh, there it goes
20:14:51 <MarvinPA> _Roots rise up from beneath you and drag you back to the ground.
20:15:13 <PleasingFungus> ah, but going into the water causes you to escape the roots
20:16:59 <MarvinPA> i think roots is the only way you can be forced to the ground anyway, i remember researching this for ledas wispform secret tech
20:17:06 <PleasingFungus> haha
20:17:14 <PleasingFungus> and dragonform is the only way you can be giant, now
20:17:16 <PleasingFungus> rip giant trees
20:17:46 <Kramin> reaverb: I'm not quite sure you mean, here's a plot with what it would be like with no armour included: http://goo.gl/pnMaeo
20:18:21 <Kramin> the armour one still ends up at significantly lower EV than without armour
20:20:25 <Kramin> *sure what you
20:21:14 <Kramin> I guess the slope of the line could be changed when you have armour
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20:22:55 <reaverb> Yes I mean it might be good if armour changed the slope of the line.
20:23:06 <reaverb> (This would almost certainly be a 0.16 target if it happened, btw)
20:23:51 <Kramin> that would make the absolute penalty from the armour increase with dodging skill though
20:24:05 <Kramin> which is kind of mean...
20:25:01 <Kramin> as it currently is, armour means you are always e.g. 10 EV lower in plate than in robes
20:25:24 <Kramin> unless your dodging is below the threshhold
20:26:31 <reaverb> The formula you suggested already makes the aboslute penalty from the armour increase with dodging skill :D
20:26:55 <Kramin> yeah, but only a little bit at low skill
20:29:36 <Kramin> so, your idea would be a buff at low skill and a nerf at high skill
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20:30:42 <Kramin> a buff at low skill so that training dodging actually does somthing in heavy armour would be good
20:30:50 <Kramin> (as long as it's not too big of a buff)
20:30:55 <reaverb> Well your idea would also be a buff at high skill because getting the low skill would cost less.
20:31:14 <reaverb> But yes the original idea behind this is that to make dodging do stuff in heavy armour at low skill.
20:31:28 <reaverb> (Also I think stealth does the same thing as dodging, not sure though)
20:31:30 <Kramin> but I'm not sure about nerfing it at high skill
20:32:10 <reaverb> I'm sure playtesting will detect which solution is better.
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20:34:21 <reaverb> !tell gammafunk By the way, I managed to run objstat on my machine, I don't know how to export the data into an excel/numbers table or compare it to another objstat run though.
20:34:21 <Sequell> reaverb: OK, I'll let gammafunk know.
20:34:23 <gammafunk> does anyone else get annoyed by the frequency of insubstantial wisps in swamp?
20:34:23 <Sequell> gammafunk: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
20:34:27 <reaverb> Ha.
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20:34:38 <Cheibriados> insubstantial wisp (15v) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 6-18 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Dam: 1206(blink self) | 11non-living, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 80 | Sp: blink | Sz: tiny | Int: plant.

20:34:38 <reaverb> %??insubstantial wisp
20:34:43 <Grunt> !send gammafunk screaming monkeys
20:34:43 <Sequell> Sending screaming monkeys to gammafunk.
20:35:00 <gammafunk> reaverb: it's a tdt file, so you just open in a spreadsheet (google docs can import it as a spreadsheet)
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20:35:10 <reaverb> gammafunk: Oh, hmm.
20:35:36 <reaverb> It never occured to me it might not be plain text. (Since it has the .txt extension)
20:35:51 <gammafunk> reaverb: no it is plain text
20:35:52 <Kramin> reaverb: I disconnected for a bit there, I don't know if you said anything...
20:35:59 <gammafunk> tdt = tab-delimited-text
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20:36:09 <reaverb> gammafunk: Ah
20:36:23 <gammafunk> just means it has 'fields' seperated by tabs (the values are surrounded by quotes)
20:36:30 <gammafunk> but any modern spreadsheet can import this
20:36:30 <reaverb> Kramin: I just said playtesting would reveal if a nerf at high dodging would or would not be desirable.
20:36:49 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: they don't seem very common to me, tbh
20:36:58 <PleasingFungus> reaverb: I'm not sure this is the sort of thing that playtesting is good for?
20:36:59 <Kramin> ok, yep
20:37:07 <gammafunk> I usually run into 2-3 packs per swamp
20:37:08 <PleasingFungus> what sort of feedback do you expect, exactly?
20:37:21 <gammafunk> it's just they don't seem to achieve terribly much other than annoyance
20:37:31 <gammafunk> I guess I'm complaining more about the enemy itself
20:38:11 <PleasingFungus> ?/windshield
20:38:11 <Sequell> Matching entries (1): insubstantial_wisp[1]: <greensnark> Insubstantial wisps are like a screaming monkey on your windshield, It's unlikely to kill you directly But all you can see is the monkey
20:38:21 <PleasingFungus> I guess that's a ping but w/e
20:38:37 <PleasingFungus> anyway I guess I don't feel strongly about them. they're just kind of there
20:38:54 <gammafunk> we put like some scorpions in spider don't we
20:38:57 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: People training always training dodging for example.
20:39:08 <reaverb> gammafunk: We can sneak another monster removal into 0.15!!!
20:39:14 <PleasingFungus> oh man oh boy
20:39:20 <PleasingFungus> I am very excited about removing things!
20:39:22 <gammafunk> well I think they show up as nem summons in foxfire
20:39:26 <reaverb> I'mt happy 0.15 obeys rules[1]
20:39:50 * Grunt removes reaverb and gammafunk.
20:40:40 <gammafunk> yeah swamp has a fairly healthy diversity compared to spider and snake (mocassins and scorpions being similar in those branches)
20:40:51 <gammafunk> I guess I can just lower their frequency a bit
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20:41:15 <gammafunk> they'd be kind of cool as a low-level summon, which they actually are for nem, so maybe removal would be bad
20:42:24 <reaverb> Also they could just be removed from natural generation.
20:42:43 <Cheibriados> insubstantial wisp (15v) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 6-18 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Dam: 1206(blink self) | 11non-living, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 80 | Sp: blink | Sz: tiny | Int: plant.

20:42:43 <reaverb> %??insubstantial wisp
20:42:45 <Cheibriados> blink frog (09F) | Spd: 14 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | HP: 21-45 | AC/EV: 0/16 | Dam: 2006(blink self) | amphibious, cold-blooded, !sil | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 265 | Sp: blink | Sz: Medium | Int: reptile.

20:42:45 <reaverb> %??blink frog
20:42:49 <gammafunk> yeah, I'd be fine with that, but if someone feels strongly that they should have some placement, I'm ok with it
20:43:21 <reaverb> Hmm, seem similar to blink frogs except for the MR IMMUNE and resistances.
20:43:26 <Grunt> %git HEAD^{/crash frog}
20:43:29 <Cheibriados> 07kilobyte02 * 0.11-a0-2377-g92d52c9: Make crash frogs blink frogs again. 10(2 years, 1 month ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=92d52c9cc9ef
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20:43:37 <gammafunk> right, if they got removed, just give some of that weight to them (probably not all though)
20:43:40 <gammafunk> maybe just 100
20:44:22 <gammafunk> !lg .
20:44:23 <Sequell> 1492. gammafunk the Summoner (L11 HESu of Sif Muna), mangled by a komodo dragon on Lair:5 on 2014-07-16 22:14:41, with 8971 points after 7995 turns and 1:02:25.
20:44:32 <gammafunk> also remove komodos since I was being impatient there
20:44:41 <gammafunk> if we remove them, I'll not be impatient again
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20:44:46 <Grunt> imo remove impatience instead
20:44:56 <Grunt> force a three second delay between actions or so
20:44:56 <Grunt> <_<
20:45:07 <gammafunk> Grunt: you've obviously never seen Grunt play!
20:45:25 <Grunt> gammafunk: that guy plays like a maniac and he deserves to be forced to slow down imo
20:45:27 <reaverb> Grunt: That's what playing webtiles is like.
20:45:54 <reaverb> (It does not succeed in removing impatience) <_< >_>
20:46:01 <PleasingFungus> reaverb: insubstantial wisps are vastly less dangerous than blink frogs
20:46:04 <PleasingFungus> compare the damage & speed
20:46:18 <PleasingFungus> and xp, for that matter
20:46:24 <gammafunk> well they're really not dangerous at all, and it's swamp
20:46:32 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: Yes, which is why its weird wisps spawn after blink frogs.
20:47:06 <PleasingFungus> if someone has ideas for making them more interesting, I'm all ears
20:47:30 <Grunt> One way or another right now they're fairly
20:47:31 <Grunt> !glasses
20:47:31 <Sequell> ( •_•)    ( •_•)>⌐■-■    (⌐■_■)
20:47:32 <Grunt> insubstantial
20:47:56 <gammafunk> I think they work fine as summons and are interesting that way
20:48:12 <gammafunk> but as enemies they seem kind of just designed to annoy
20:48:33 <gammafunk> if you die to blink frogs by swamp, well you weren't goign to survive anyways
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20:48:44 <Grunt> !lg * swamp ckiller=blink_frog
20:48:45 <Sequell> 2. Clouseau the Conjurer (L17 GrEE of Vehumet), mangled by a blink frog on Swamp:5 on 2014-06-01 18:20:54, with 145781 points after 49373 turns and 7:34:41.
20:48:50 <Grunt> wow
20:48:51 <gammafunk> ripip
20:48:53 <Grunt> !lg * swamp ckiller=blink_frog 1
20:48:53 <Sequell> 1/2. mutarobin the Hacker (L15 DsBe of Trog), slain by a blink frog on Swamp:5 on 2009-08-22 01:03:28, with 103460 points after 44552 turns and 2:20:04.
20:48:57 <gammafunk> haha
20:49:00 <PleasingFungus> good 5-year gap
20:49:02 <gammafunk> go for teh purple
20:49:03 <Grunt> yes
20:49:08 <Grunt> !lg * swamp ckiller=blink_frog 1 -log
20:49:09 <Sequell> 1/2. mutarobin, XL15 DsBe, T:44552: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/mutarobin/morgue-mutarobin-20090822-010328.txt
20:49:09 <reaverb> !lg * swamp ckiller=insubstantial_wisp
20:49:09 <Sequell> 30. BrainTurd the Shatterer (L17 OgBe of Trog), slain by an insubstantial wisp on Swamp:3 on 2014-05-20 21:08:15, with 128096 points after 44808 turns and 3:30:46.
20:49:18 <Grunt> :|
20:49:35 <gammafunk> they've been in swamp a long long time, too
20:49:41 <gammafunk> although I'm not really sure quite how long
20:50:04 <gammafunk> !lg * swamp ckiller=~vapour
20:50:05 <Sequell> 62. 9uMaH the Eclecticist (L14 DEFE of Vehumet), blasted by a vapour (bolt of lightning) on Swamp:1 on 2014-06-05 21:05:40, with 59522 points after 36203 turns and 3:46:50.
20:50:05 <reaverb> !lg * swamp ckiller=insubstantial_wisp recent
20:50:06 <Sequell> 6. BrainTurd the Shatterer (L17 OgBe of Trog), slain by an insubstantial wisp on Swamp:3 on 2014-05-20 21:08:15, with 128096 points after 44808 turns and 3:30:46.
20:50:15 <reaverb> !lg * swamp ckiller=blink_frog recent
20:50:16 <Sequell> 1. Clouseau the Conjurer (L17 GrEE of Vehumet), mangled by a blink frog on Swamp:5 on 2014-06-01 18:20:54, with 145781 points after 49373 turns and 7:34:41.
20:50:59 <gammafunk> surprised that vapours don't have more swamp kills tbh
20:50:59 <Grunt> What's a vapour?
20:50:59 <Grunt> <_<
20:50:59 <gammafunk> !lg . ckiller=~vapour
20:50:59 <Sequell> 1. gammafunk the Summoner (L12 HEIE of Sif Muna), blasted by a vapour (bolt of lightning) on Swamp:5 on 2014-04-06 16:35:56, with 16571 points after 9504 turns and 1:53:20.
20:51:00 <Grunt> !lg . ckiller=vapour_
20:51:00 <Sequell> No games for Grunt (ckiller=vapour_).
20:51:01 <Grunt> !lg . ckiller=vapour
20:51:01 <Sequell> 2. SGrunt the Pyromancer (L20 DEFE of Vehumet), blasted by a vapour (bolt of lightning) on D:19 on 2012-06-13 01:16:28, with 259544 points after 71986 turns and 5:20:25.
20:51:04 <Grunt> wait
20:51:05 <Grunt> twice
20:51:06 <Grunt> wait
20:51:09 <Grunt> !lg . ckiller=vapour 1
20:51:10 <Sequell> 1/2. SGrunt the Miscreant (L3 SpEn of Nemelex Xobeh), blasted by a vapour (bolt of lightning) (summoned by the player character) on D:3 on 2012-06-01 23:28:19, with 106 points after 2608 turns and 0:05:59.
20:51:11 <gammafunk> killing gammafunk is a bad thing to do if you want to ensure your posterity, monsters
20:51:13 <Grunt> oh
20:51:52 <PleasingFungus> !lg gammafunk swamp
20:51:53 <Sequell> 25. gammafunk the Summoner (L12 HESu of Sif Muna), succumbed to a swamp dragon's poison gas on Swamp:5 on 2014-07-14 07:29:36, with 18853 points after 9464 turns and 1:47:29.
20:52:09 <reaverb> if (you.name = "gammafunk" && MONS_WORM) { weight * 100}
20:52:13 <gammafunk> I shouldn't have lost that fight
20:52:25 <gammafunk> really bad on my part
20:52:45 <reaverb> And of course that code would have no effect because I messed it up like I messed up the Chefue battle cry >_> <_<
20:53:26 <gammafunk> heh, a mode that upweighted the monsters that kill you for each new game
20:53:35 <gammafunk> I wonder why my monster populations would converge to
20:53:49 <reaverb> 5 Sigmund come into view
20:54:53 <Grunt> "5 Sigmund comes into view."
20:54:59 <Grunt> ??mauricescumming[comes
20:55:00 <Sequell> mauricescumming[3/9]: 3 Maurice comes into view.
20:55:11 <Grunt> (Ever see that plural special case in the code?)
20:55:34 <gammafunk> Grunt: could that ever happen?
20:55:44 <Grunt> 5 Sigmund?
20:55:51 <gammafunk> or the 3 Maurice thing
20:55:53 <Grunt> Just re-enable phantom mirror on uniques or something :b
20:56:03 <Grunt> ?/3 the Enchantress
20:56:03 <Sequell> No matches.
20:56:03 <Grunt> what
20:56:15 <Grunt> wait
20:56:16 <Grunt> it was 5
20:56:18 <Grunt> ??phantom mirror[2
20:56:18 <Sequell> phantom mirror[2/4]: You could see 5 the Enchantress, a rakshasa and a friendly fire elemental. !log gorice hucj depths 1
20:56:24 <gammafunk> good
20:56:35 <gammafunk> I remember that mirror of like 2 asterion and 3 or 4 spectral weapons
20:56:42 <Grunt> I saw 3 Boris at one point.
20:56:47 <gammafunk> haha
20:56:51 <gammafunk> Orb party
20:57:01 <Grunt> Well, I pretty quickly fled when I saw that :)
20:57:03 <gammafunk> hopefully it could mirror the orb as well
20:57:06 <reaverb> I still think mirroring uniques was too hilarious to remove <_< >_>
20:57:20 <reaverb> Although I imagine the grammar issues would be a nightmare.
20:57:23 <gammafunk> reaverb: I'd really like to do something like a bad_ideas branch for next april fools
20:57:33 <gammafunk> it's kind of ambitious I suppose
20:57:35 <Grunt> %git HEAD^{/irror.*unique}
20:57:36 <Cheibriados> 07wheals02 * 0.15-a0-228-g8c2e7e4: Fix Phantom Mirror being able to mirror uniques. 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8c2e7e4ca9e8
20:57:45 <reaverb> gammafunk: At this point we have enough april fools ideas to survive until the Singularity.
20:57:49 <gammafunk> indeed
20:57:56 <gammafunk> but like an etting species worshiping two gods
20:57:59 <gammafunk> HULK form
20:59:07 <Grunt> dual wielding
20:59:08 <Grunt> !!!!
20:59:20 <gammafunk> yes
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20:59:32 <reaverb> Yes it seems the effort to implement a new species and more would be better spent on good_ideas <_< >_>
20:59:33 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:59:57 <gammafunk> reaverb: you saw how much time we wasted with nostalgia?
21:00:12 <reaverb> Yes, but at least that was distributed!!!!
21:00:44 <reaverb> %git nostalgia
21:00:44 <Cheibriados> 07elliptic02 * 0.14-b1-61-g429ec3a: Nerf gnomes. 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=429ec3afd8ba
21:00:57 <reaverb> ??nostalgia
21:00:57 <Sequell> nostalgia[1/4]: This is the basis for 0.15, a new direction for DCSS that will bring back Fun. See http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt;hb=nostalgia
21:01:10 <Grunt> rip gnomes
21:01:13 <gammafunk> well of course it'd be distributed; tbh it'd take someone making the initial stab at things and then people would join in
21:01:19 <gammafunk> we'll have to see, that's a long ways off
21:03:16 <gammafunk> I was going to ask, are the Gozag things the only really remaining big TODO items?
21:03:28 <gammafunk> I understand we're waiting on more ranged playtest and there might be more tweaks there
21:03:35 <gammafunk> ??0.15_plan
21:03:35 <Sequell> 0.15 plan[1/1]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:0.15_plan
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21:04:41 <ackack> haha, is .15 already getting close to release?
21:05:08 <gammafunk> some are saying we'll release when I take the HE score
21:05:24 <reaverb> I had a couple ideas to make Gozag wrath nastier.
21:05:24 <gammafunk> I read it in a fortune cookie, so it's 50% chance of being true
21:05:29 <reaverb> ackack:
21:05:31 <reaverb> ??0.15
21:05:31 <Sequell> 0.15[1/1]: August 2014
21:05:43 <ackack> man
21:05:53 <gammafunk> yeah we have to see if elliptic can manage an August tournament
21:05:59 <ackack> i check out for a couple months after the last tournament and the next one is apparently almost upon me
21:06:02 <gammafunk> so that's kind of still in the air I guess
21:06:13 <Grunt> I'd find it more likely to do the tourney in September, really.
21:06:24 <gammafunk> early September?
21:06:26 <Grunt> (Doesn't mean it can't be an August release date, of course...)
21:06:35 <Grunt> Start early and finish late in September :)
21:06:39 <gammafunk> when do classes begin for most people
21:06:44 <reaverb> August.
21:06:52 <gammafunk> since I'd thought the aim was 'summer'
21:07:30 <ackack> who works on webtiles (on stuff other than making tiles)?
21:07:43 <Grunt> Variously, edlothiol and Medar.
21:07:45 <reaverb> %git webtiles-changes
21:07:45 <Cheibriados> 07edlothiol02 * 0.15-a0-747-g6a330ab: Webtiles: Remove the "broken" crypto_algorithm. 10(7 weeks ago, 3 files, 12+ 21-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6a330ab16ad3
21:07:46 <gammafunk> I guess the beginning of the school season is at least better than the middle or end of it
21:08:05 <gammafunk> ackack: yeah, I've tweaked with it some as well, and |amethyst also works some on it
21:08:15 <MarvinPA> i think aiming for "when 0.15 is ready" is better than aiming for whatever date, and ranged combat could probably do with a whole bunch more playtesting for bugs and balance
21:08:28 <Grunt> I agree with MarvinPA here.
21:09:21 <gammafunk> oh sure, but I guess the tournament schedule is at least part of the consideration, not that it means we have to realease in August
21:09:52 <Grunt> We should be deciding the tournament schedule based on the release and not the other way around.
21:10:21 <gammafunk> ok. I think |amethyst suggested that date to improve the tournament period, but maybe it's just not the best thing to do
21:10:24 <gammafunk> !learn del 0.15
21:10:25 <Sequell> Deleted 0.15[1/1]: August 2014
21:11:18 <reaverb> Hmm, my impression was that August  was a perfectly achievable release date.
21:11:48 <gammafunk> well we do have outstanding issues and august is like two weeks away
21:11:52 <reaverb> (Obviously resyncing the schedule to summer could happen for 0.16 or 0.17)
21:12:43 <reaverb> gammafunk: I guess I haven't been paying enough attention to these issues. I'm guess Ranged Combat is one, and Gozag is another. Any others?
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21:12:57 <gammafunk> reaverb: I think those are the major issues
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21:13:28 <gammafunk> minor ones are any further item generation adjustment, large rocks in particular (kind of part of ranged)
21:13:51 <gammafunk> I need to mark enchant weapon scrolls as fine I think
21:15:24 <gammafunk> for item generation, it feels pretty good right now; tactical consumables don't seem especially rare even in my speedruns (others may disagree)
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21:16:40 <gammafunk> Ayutzia was telling me that crawl is 'amazingly more difficult due to lower item gen, like 0.11', but lol Ayutzia bought facial lotion for $500 at the mall because the sales guy gave him a good pitch
21:16:47 <gammafunk> I haven't heard any serious complaints
21:19:11 <gammafunk> oh, a Mu of Gozag would be a fun test
21:19:37 <reaverb> !whichgod Mu
21:19:38 <Sequell> 83 recent wins: 28x Sif Muna, 9x Ashenzari, 9x Xom, 8x Okawaru, 6x Vehumet, 6x Trog, 5x Nemelex Xobeh, 3x Kikubaaqudgha, 3x Yredelemnul, 2x Gozag, 2x Dithmenos, Lugonu, Cheibriados
21:19:54 <reaverb> Hmm, Gozag is still pretty low there.
21:20:00 <gammafunk> !hs * MuAM
21:20:00 <Sequell> 1794. minmay the Farming Archmage (L27 MuAM of Sif Muna), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2011-09-17 22:12:46, with 7268415 points after 249431 turns and 9:43:19.
21:20:05 <gammafunk> haha
21:20:25 <Grunt> !whichgod mu * recent
21:20:26 <Sequell> 83 recent wins: 28x Sif Muna, 9x Ashenzari, 9x Xom, 8x Okawaru, 6x Vehumet, 6x Trog, 5x Nemelex Xobeh, 3x Kikubaaqudgha, 3x Yredelemnul, 2x Gozag, 2x Dithmenos, Lugonu, Cheibriados
21:20:26 <gammafunk> almost required that I snipe that
21:20:29 <Grunt> er
21:20:31 <Grunt> !whichgod mu recent
21:20:32 <Sequell> 83 recent wins: 28x Sif Muna, 9x Ashenzari, 9x Xom, 8x Okawaru, 6x Vehumet, 6x Trog, 5x Nemelex Xobeh, 3x Kikubaaqudgha, 3x Yredelemnul, 2x Gozag, 2x Dithmenos, Lugonu, Cheibriados
21:20:35 <Grunt> wait
21:20:44 <reaverb> !cmd !whichgod
21:20:44 <Sequell> Command: !whichgod => !lg * won recent $* s=god title:"${n} recent wins" stub:"No recent wins for $*."
21:20:45 <Grunt> Let's try this again without being redundant <_<
21:20:51 <Grunt> !lg * won cv=0.15-a s=god
21:20:52 <Sequell> 1565 games for * (won cv=0.15-a): 194x Okawaru, 188x Trog, 136x Vehumet, 130x Qazlal, 113x Ashenzari, 109x The Shining One, 97x Makhleb, 93x Cheibriados, 77x Dithmenos, 48x Gozag, 46x Lugonu, 46x Zin, 35x Yredelemnul, 33x Jiyva, 33x, 32x Kikubaaqudgha, 32x Fedhas, 28x Xom, 26x Sif Muna, 25x Beogh, 24x Elyvilon, 20x Nemelex Xobeh
21:20:56 <Grunt> !lg * mu won cv=0.15-a s=god
21:20:56 <Sequell> 23 games for * (mu won cv=0.15-a): 7x Sif Muna, 4x Vehumet, 2x Yredelemnul, 2x Okawaru, 2x Ashenzari, 2x Gozag, Nemelex Xobeh, Trog, Xom, Dithmenos
21:20:59 <Grunt> *there*
21:21:15 <reaverb> !lg * mu won recent s=god
21:21:16 <Sequell> 83 games for * (mu won recent): 28x Sif Muna, 9x Ashenzari, 9x Xom, 8x Okawaru, 6x Vehumet, 6x Trog, 5x Nemelex Xobeh, 3x Kikubaaqudgha, 3x Yredelemnul, 2x Gozag, 2x Dithmenos, Lugonu, Cheibriados
21:21:33 <reaverb> Hmm, kind of weird there are only 23 mummy wins in 0.15
21:21:49 <reaverb> !lg * mi won cv=0.15-a
21:21:57 <Sequell> 144. oms the Axe Maniac (L27 MiBe of Trog), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2014-07-14 22:04:22, with 13073437 points after 122837 turns and 12:29:59.
21:22:03 <gammafunk> seems about right
21:22:16 <Grunt> !lg * cv=0.15-a won s=race
21:22:17 <Sequell> 1565 games for * (cv=0.15-a won): 167x Demonspawn, 158x Gargoyle, 144x Minotaur, 99x Ogre, 85x Vine Stalker, 64x Hill Orc, 61x Merfolk, 60x Centaur, 59x Deep Dwarf, 59x Formicid, 53x Troll, 49x Deep Elf, 44x Spriggan, 44x Naga, 38x Human, 37x High Elf, 37x Kobold, 35x Halfling, 35x Tengu, 31x Demigod, 25x Octopode, 23x Mummy, 22x Vampire, 21x Felid, 21x Lava Orc, 19x Ghoul, 17x Grey Draconian, 10x...
21:22:26 <Grunt> hm we have a power trio now
21:23:02 <gammafunk> Fo popular it seems
21:23:21 <ackack> Og popularity because of ranged reworking?
21:23:21 <gammafunk> so is VS but I'm not surprised there
21:23:24 <ackack> seems hard to explain otherwise
21:23:27 <Grunt> ackack: that's my guess
21:23:31 <Grunt> !lg * cv=0.15-a og won s=sk
21:23:32 <Sequell> 99 games for * (cv=0.15-a og won): 50x Fighting, 23x Maces & Flails, 17x Throwing, 3x Invocations, 2x Dodging, 2x Spellcasting, Unarmed Combat, Translocations
21:23:34 <Grunt> hm
21:23:35 <reaverb> Ds being top keeps surprising me for some reason. (Also its funny Gh has less wins than LO)
21:23:42 <Grunt> (fr a second-best sk tracker)
21:23:49 <ackack> Gh is underappreciated
21:23:49 <Grunt> !lg * cv=0.15-a og won s=char
21:23:50 <Sequell> 99 games for * (cv=0.15-a og won): 23x OgHu, 16x OgBe, 14x OgAK, 11x OgWr, 6x OgGl, 5x OgFi, 4x OgWn, 3x OgFE, 3x OgIE, 2x OgTm, 2x OgAs, 2x OgNe, 2x OgSk, OgAM, OgAr, OgMo, OgWz, OgDK, OgEn
21:23:53 <Grunt> mmmmmm
21:23:59 <reaverb> I'm going to guess Basil single handly moves Og above VS
21:24:00 <ackack> although i've been gone, did chunks end up disappearing?
21:24:02 <Grunt> !send ackack RIPPING AND TEARING
21:24:02 <Sequell> Sending RIPPING AND TEARING to ackack.
21:24:02 <gammafunk> I appreciate not having to play it
21:24:12 <Grunt> gammafunk: Gh?
21:24:15 <gammafunk> yeah
21:24:22 <Grunt> !hs gammafunk gh
21:24:22 <Sequell> 17. gammafunk the Petrodigitator (L27 GhEE of Vehumet), escaped with the Orb and 5 runes on 2013-07-03 04:08:37, with 2319064 points after 132910 turns and 19:15:35.
21:24:24 <reaverb> !lg * cv=0.15-a won Og-- s=name
21:24:25 <Sequell> 99 games for * (cv=0.15-a won Og--): 5x nago, 5x Cheibrodos, 3x Basil, 2x Zooty, 2x Roarke, 2x Magipi, 2x Floodkiller, 2x Cirk, 2x Tabstorm, 2x Xen, 2x HilariousDeathArtist, 2x nabalzbhf, 2x rubinko, 2x DrKe, Scytale, mdk, mellonbread, hyperbowl, 78291, Bigslacks, patashurobin, WeiSong, hackum, Fiveotanaka, happinesssam, Sphara, moose, MarvinPA, KarsaOrlong, kcfos, Amnesiac, jowce12, MrPlanck, Blo...
21:24:25 <Grunt> mm
21:24:39 <reaverb> Oh, hmm, vast overestimate of Basil's Og wins.
21:25:09 <gammafunk> cheibrodos is a notorious Ogre
21:25:22 <Grunt> The ogre shouts!
21:25:45 <gammafunk> Reaver was a class, right? Abbreviate Re?
21:26:01 <simmarine> !lg * ogre
21:26:02 <Grunt> Yes.
21:26:03 <Sequell> 397. Elynae the Cudgeler (L1 OgRe), quit the game on D:1 (lemuel_entry_muddy) on 2011-12-11 16:15:56, with 21 points after 307 turns and 0:00:53.
21:26:03 <ackack> ??guru wisdom[13
21:26:04 <Sequell> guru wisdom[13/27]: <OG17> one isn't bigger than twenty
21:26:06 <ackack> wrong one
21:26:09 <gammafunk> wow, rip OgRe
21:26:13 <minmay> ??guru wisdom[14
21:26:13 <Sequell> guru wisdom[14/27]: <minmay> you can't spell ogre without ogre
21:26:15 <gammafunk> at least we still have OgAr
21:27:39 <reaverb> !lg * ogre nostalgia
21:27:39 <Sequell> 15. raskol the Basher (L1 OgRe), slain by an adder on D:2 on 2014-04-02 04:32:35, with 4 points after 186 turns and 0:00:42.
21:27:39 <Grunt> !lg * --re nostalgia s=char
21:27:39 <Sequell> 126 games for * (--re nostalgia): 21x GERe, 16x HERe, 15x TeRe, 15x OgRe, 12x VpRe, 11x OMRe, 7x GrRe, 5x MfRe, 4x DgRe, 4x ElRe, 3x VSRe, 3x GnRe, 2x FoRe, 2x MDRe, HORe, HuRe, DsRe, OpRe, HDRe, DrRe
21:27:39 <Grunt> TeRe <3
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21:27:51 <reaverb> !lg . --Re nostalgia s=char
21:27:52 <Sequell> One game for reaverb (--Re nostalgia): GERe
21:28:06 <reaverb> Hmm, I wonder why everybody (including me) did GERe
21:28:20 <Grunt> !lg . --re nostalgia s=char
21:28:20 <Sequell> One game for Grunt (--re nostalgia): TeRe
21:28:22 <Grunt> I didn't!
21:28:30 <Grunt> !lg . nostalgia s=char
21:28:31 <Sequell> 5 games for Grunt (nostalgia): GEAE, MDFi, TeRe, MfCr, GnTh
21:28:40 <Grunt> good selection there
21:28:53 <Kramin> !wtf GERe
21:28:54 <Sequell> Grey Elf* Reaver*
21:29:11 <reaverb> Hmm, I of course meant "Why is the number of GERe larger than other --Re combos" ?
21:29:19 <reaverb> I'm guess * menas removed.
21:29:23 <Grunt> Correct.
21:29:34 <reaverb> !wtf DjFi
21:29:34 <Sequell> Djinni* Fighter
21:29:43 <Grunt> the most important *
21:29:46 <Grunt> <_<
21:30:13 <Kramin> !apt fe hp
21:30:13 <Sequell> Fe (SK_HP)=-4*
21:30:22 <Kramin> yes felid hp was removed
21:30:53 <Grunt> wait
21:30:56 <Grunt> Fe had HP to begin with?
21:31:03 <Kramin> must have
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21:57:58 <|amethyst> Probably also food balance needs to be worked on
21:58:29 <|amethyst> we greatly increased the amount of food available to most characters
21:59:50 <|amethyst> Then again, doubling "basically infinite" isn't much of a change
22:00:27 <eb_> is there enough food right now that if hunger was removed it would barely make a difference
22:01:45 <|amethyst> no, because at least now you have to kill things to get food
22:02:23 <|amethyst> though we've removed many of the reasons you'd want to sit around in Temple for a long time
22:02:44 <eb_> see this is why I can't contribute properly
22:02:44 <Basil> finally nerfed apocalypsescumming
22:02:57 <eb_> I never think like those terrible people who need to be actively countered
22:02:58 <eb_> ??zermako[5
22:02:59 <Sequell> zermako[5/27]: <Zermako> i came to the dungeon to kill dudes
22:03:00 <eb_> ^
22:03:09 <|amethyst> :)
22:03:19 <Basil> ??zermako[$
22:03:20 <Sequell> zermako[27/27]: Still a better player than Basil
22:03:24 <Basil> mmm
22:03:38 <Kramin> ??zermako[$
22:03:38 <Sequell> zermako[27/27]: Still a better player than Kramin
22:05:30 <Basil> reaverb: also I got Og greatrace in 0.14
22:05:33 <Kramin> !lm
22:05:34 <Sequell> 1229. [2014-07-16 11:40:20] Kramin the Charlatan (L7 FoAr of Makhleb) killed Dowan on turn 4236. (D:4)
22:05:59 <reaverb> Basil: Oh, wow, hmm.
22:06:09 <Basil> !lg . og won s=cv
22:06:10 <Sequell> 29 games for Basil (og won): 23x 0.14-a, 3x 0.15-a, 3x 0.13-a
22:06:23 <|amethyst> !lg . won s=cv,char
22:06:24 <Sequell> 2 games for |amethyst (won): 0.10-a (HOHe), 0.9 (SpSt)
22:07:18 <Basil> hm
22:07:29 <Basil> !lg * cv~~0.14 /won s=race
22:07:31 <Sequell> 3196/491276 games for * (cv~~0.14): 367/31486x Gargoyle [1.17%], 305/31053x Minotaur [0.98%], 230/52596x Demonspawn [0.44%], 144/35376x Deep Elf [0.41%], 143/15788x Hill Orc [0.91%], 138/7252x Deep Dwarf [1.90%], 135/15041x Vine Stalker [0.90%], 131/11078x Naga [1.18%], 116/12427x Ogre [0.93%], 109/21318x Spriggan [0.51%], 108/14547x Troll [0.74%], 108/13379x Merfolk [0.81%], 106/6199x Centaur [1....
22:08:16 * Grunt flattens Basil like a pancake!!!!!!
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22:08:19 <ackack> i think it would make sense if race in sequellese did what crace currently does
22:08:27 <ackack> it seems rare that race is actually what you want
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22:09:54 -!- mamgar has quit [Client Quit]
22:10:15 <Basil> !kw crace
22:10:16 <Sequell> Built-in: crace => crace!=
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22:27:14 <PleasingFungus> so uh
22:27:18 <PleasingFungus> I thought we took out player trampling
22:27:27 <Grunt> PleasingFungus: ???
22:27:31 <PleasingFungus> ??grey draconian
22:27:31 <Sequell> grey draconian[1/1]: A form of draconian which doesn't breathe (they can swim and are unaffected by mephitic clouds). Grey Draconians get stability in water (no fumbling), 5 more AC, +2 Earth, and -2 Air. While in deep water and attacking an enemy in a water tile, they have a trample attack.
22:27:34 <PleasingFungus> ^
22:27:41 <PleasingFungus> !source melee-attack.cc:1401
22:27:41 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/melee-attack.cc;hb=HEAD#l1401
22:27:43 <Grunt> Does tha--
22:27:53 <PleasingFungus> !source melee_attack.cc:1401
22:27:53 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc;hb=HEAD#l1401
22:28:00 <Grunt> wow
22:28:01 <Grunt> that's
22:28:02 <Grunt> ...
22:28:05 <PleasingFungus> y e p
22:28:29 <PleasingFungus> %git 5c0bedadd
22:28:32 <Cheibriados> 07Cryp71c02 * 0.9.0-a0-367-g5c0beda: Remove mons_perform_attack 10(3 years, 2 months ago, 2 files, 3256+ 3293-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5c0bedadd72c
22:29:02 <PleasingFungus> %git 76882184
22:29:02 <Cheibriados> 07Cryp71c02 * 0.8.0-a0-5797-g7688218: Relocate melee_attack class to own cc file 10(3 years, 4 months ago, 7 files, 6067+ 6002-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=76882184f8ba
22:29:22 <|amethyst> I had no idea that ever was a thing, let alone still
22:29:35 <Grunt> Heck, my DrMo win was a grey draconian.
22:29:37 <Grunt> I never noticed.
22:29:43 <PleasingFungus> it is incredibly niche
22:29:51 <reaverb> It could easily be removed.
22:29:55 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
22:29:56 <PleasingFungus> %git f158233c6
22:29:56 <Cheibriados> 07dolorous02 * 0.8.0-a0-2518-gf158233: Add formatting fixes. 10(3 years, 8 months ago, 1 file, 3+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f158233c6557
22:29:57 <Grunt> It's special-casey enough that it should just go away.
22:30:05 <PleasingFungus> oh yes, it's terrible for a lot of reasons
22:30:06 <|amethyst> it sounds really great against merfolk
22:30:16 <|amethyst> since they never have reaching
22:30:42 <reaverb> I think if anybody ever saw that they would assume it was a bug.
22:30:52 <reaverb> Anybody in particular want to handle this or should I?
22:31:17 <PleasingFungus> %git b45f3dca4
22:31:17 <Cheibriados> 07N7829102 {due} * 0.8.0-a0-1967-gb45f3dc: Properly apply N78291's Draconian patch. 10(3 years, 9 months ago, 22 files, 226+ 89-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b45f3dca40ce
22:31:27 <PleasingFungus> finally
22:31:30 <PleasingFungus> we know the culprit
22:31:33 <PleasingFungus> and he is among us!!!
22:31:36 <Grunt> GASP
22:31:39 <Grunt> the special-casers
22:31:40 <PleasingFungus> anyway yeah I'll take care of it.
22:31:41 <Grunt> walk amongst us
22:31:42 <Grunt> EVEN NOW
22:31:43 <Grunt> !!!!!
22:31:45 <Grunt> actually
22:31:46 <reaverb> Well.
22:31:46 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
22:31:47 <|amethyst> hm?
22:31:48 <Grunt> !seen N78291
22:31:48 <Sequell> I last saw N78291 at Wed Jun  4 03:43:47 2014 UTC (6w 23h 48m 1s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: null'.
22:31:50 <Grunt> :(
22:31:52 <|amethyst> I don't see the line in that commit
22:31:53 <reaverb> Yes that D:
22:32:02 <PleasingFungus> it's near the bottom, |amethyst
22:32:05 <PleasingFungus> I mean
22:32:07 <PleasingFungus> midway through
22:32:15 <PleasingFungus> search UNAT_TAIL
22:32:29 <|amethyst> oh, it was do_trample then, I see
22:32:54 <reaverb> I just checked and yes the code actually works.
22:33:10 <PleasingFungus> yes, I tested before adding it to learndb
22:33:19 <reaverb> I guess I thought it might be not working since nobody has reported this.
22:33:23 <reaverb> Oh, it's in the learndb now?
22:33:28 <PleasingFungus> ??grey draconian
22:33:28 <Sequell> grey draconian[1/1]: A form of draconian which doesn't breathe (they can swim and are unaffected by mephitic clouds). Grey Draconians get stability in water (no fumbling), 5 more AC, +2 Earth, and -2 Air. While in deep water and attacking an enemy in a water tile, they have a trample attack.
22:33:34 <PleasingFungus> soon it will be "in 0.14-" :)
22:33:36 <reaverb> err, was.
22:33:45 <reaverb> that sounds like a good trivia entry.
22:33:55 <PleasingFungus> ya
22:34:00 <PleasingFungus> I'll add it in a moment
22:35:14 <reaverb> Make me wonder what other nonsense lurks within the source.
22:35:27 <Grunt> Who knows what nonsense lurks in the depths of the source?
22:35:30 <Grunt> Only the reaver knows.
22:36:44 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2135-gf74bb73: Pull some functions into species.cc 10(3 hours ago, 4 files, 24+ 13-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f74bb73639c8
22:36:44 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2136-geb334f1: Document a function 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 12+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=eb334f11d024
22:36:44 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2137-g8e077e5: Remove (grey) draconic trampling 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8e077e5b3dba
22:36:46 <|amethyst> // want_move       (??) Somehow affects what monsters are considered dangerous
22:36:46 <|amethyst> I guess I missed that one when I added the HACK ALERT in the same file :)
22:36:51 <Grunt> See also @crawlcode
22:36:52 <Grunt> <3
22:38:02 <Grunt> (@crawlcode actually has two of my comments :( )
22:38:17 <PleasingFungus> !learn e grey_draconian s/.$/ (until 0.15)./
22:38:18 <Sequell> grey draconian[1/1]: A form of draconian which doesn't breathe (they can swim and are unaffected by mephitic clouds). Grey Draconians get stability in water (no fumbling), 5 more AC, +2 Earth, and -2 Air. While in deep water and attacking an enemy in a water tile, they have a trample attack (until 0.15).
22:38:30 <PleasingFungus> !learn e grey_draconian s/until/removed in
22:38:30 <Sequell> grey draconian[1/1]: A form of draconian which doesn't breathe (they can swim and are unaffected by mephitic clouds). Grey Draconians get stability in water (no fumbling), 5 more AC, +2 Earth, and -2 Air. While in deep water and attacking an enemy in a water tile, they have a trample attack (removed in 0.15).
22:38:40 <reaverb> I've probably only dodged @crawlcode by being so new and mostly removing things <_< >_>
22:38:52 <PleasingFungus> wtf, who pushed trivia over 27
22:38:57 <Grunt> wait
22:38:58 <Grunt> what
22:39:00 <PleasingFungus> !learn del trivia[28
22:39:01 <Sequell> Deleted trivia[28/29]: Darts benefitted more from high throwing skill than stones.
22:39:01 <PleasingFungus> !learn del trivia[28
22:39:02 <Sequell> Deleted trivia[28/28]: An XL22 ogre going from 19.7 to 19.8 fighting skill gains 2 HP!
22:39:07 <PleasingFungus> trivia should be funny!!!
22:39:22 <|amethyst> what's the query-all command?
22:39:31 <PleasingFungus> there are two answers to that
22:39:32 <reaverb> Although my you.faith() bug is probably in the 99th percentile of terrible code <_< >_>
22:39:34 <|amethyst> I always forget that
22:39:34 <PleasingFungus> the one you're looking for is !readall
22:39:40 <minmay> wtf was with that trivia[28]
22:39:41 <PleasingFungus> the one I use is https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html#trivia
22:39:54 <minmay> there are tons of places where you gain 2 hp by increasing fighting skill 0.1 levels
22:39:55 <PleasingFungus> minmay: yes.
22:40:59 <|amethyst> which reminds me, I should look into smoothing spell failure at some point
22:41:11 <Grunt> mm
22:41:13 <Grunt> That would be nice.
22:41:15 <minmay> |amethyst: and spell power!
22:41:20 <Grunt> That too.
22:41:31 <|amethyst> power isn't as unreasonably as failure I think
22:41:50 <|amethyst> or maybe I'm misremember where that problem was
22:41:50 <Grunt> I've looked into this previously, but I am scared and bewildered by how it "works" right now.
22:42:00 <reaverb> stepdowns are really terrible.
22:42:03 <Grunt> (good @crawlcode material there)
22:42:04 <|amethyst> it's a reasonably smooth number, and then gets mapped across a step function
22:42:08 <Grunt> Clearly we need to
22:42:09 <Grunt> !glasses
22:42:09 <Sequell> ( •_•)    ( •_•)>⌐■-■    (⌐■_■)
22:42:11 <Grunt> step down their use
22:42:20 <|amethyst> not a stepdown, but literally "if it's in this range, use that number"
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22:42:38 <PleasingFungus> !learn s trivia[24 Until 0.15, grey draconians players' tail slap would trample enemies. But! Only if player was in deep water, and the enemy was also in a water tile (though they could be flying!).
22:42:38 <Sequell> trivia[24/27]: Until 0.15, grey draconians players' tail slap would trample enemies. But! Only if player was in deep water, and the enemy was also in a water tile (though they could be flying!).
22:42:57 <reaverb> That still doesn't make any sense.
22:43:09 <PleasingFungus> as in, "why it existed", or "the actual sentence"?
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22:43:37 <reaverb> It looks like it was generated by a Markov chain, but the sentance is completely understandable.
22:43:44 <PleasingFungus> ha
22:44:20 <Grunt> 1learn add PleasingFungus <reaverb> [That sentence] looks like it was generated by a Markov chain
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22:45:38 <|amethyst> Grunt:  I think linearly interpolating here would fix it; the question is whether to shift the points so it's not a straight nerf to players
22:45:40 <reaverb> PLeasingFungus: Hmm, what was trivia[24 before?
22:45:50 <|amethyst> !source spl-cast.cc:365
22:45:50 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc;hb=HEAD#l365
22:46:02 <|amethyst> err, I guess up scroll up a few lines for context
22:46:08 <|amethyst> !source spl-cast.cc:354
22:46:08 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc;hb=HEAD#l354
22:46:10 <PleasingFungus> reaverb: :The only non-unique monsters that can generate with consumables are vampires (potion of blood) and gnoll sergeants (heal wounds and curing).:
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22:46:32 <Grunt> |amethyst: that's
22:46:34 <reaverb> Hmm.
22:46:35 <Grunt> |amethyst: really weird
22:46:47 <Grunt> (to the gitblamemobile)
22:46:54 <Grunt> (I bet this predates DCSS)
22:47:31 <Grunt> oh, this is adorable:
22:47:33 <Grunt> %git af03dc9c
22:47:34 <Cheibriados> 07haranp02 * 0.5-a0-189-gaf03dc9: Minor cleanups. 10(6 years ago, 3 files, 54+ 135-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=af03dc9c1dfd
22:47:48 <reaverb> The best part is the Dj contam special case is just above, so at least 3-5 people edited the code directly above it.
22:48:16 <reaverb> (I remember the Dj contam evolution  didn't notice that odditiy)
22:48:21 <Grunt> ...and yes, the un-cleaned version of that code is from Initial revision
22:49:08 <|amethyst> Since time ingitorial.
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22:50:04 <PleasingFungus> oh, is That why spellfail chance seems "sticky"
22:50:09 <|amethyst> yeah
22:50:10 <PleasingFungus> I've wondered about that!
22:50:36 <PleasingFungus> it seems like it might almost have made sense when there were "fail chance" keywords
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22:50:50 <reaverb> It's still way to broad.
22:51:04 <reaverb> err, still doesn't match the words at all.
22:51:11 <reaverb> Also I'm pretty sure words are a DCSS thing.
22:51:25 <PleasingFungus> well, dcss predates git
22:51:31 <PleasingFungus> *the git repo
22:51:37 <PleasingFungus> (and also git? I forget)
22:52:03 <reaverb> Hmm, it had svn for a while.
22:52:30 <|amethyst> So ignoring wizardry, blade hands, etc, only 24 distinct fail rates below 45%
22:52:33 <reaverb> of course initial revision is the begining of the svn thing IIRC.
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22:52:50 <Grunt> git materialised in 2005
22:52:53 <Grunt> DCSS materialised in 2006
22:52:54 <Grunt> so
22:52:57 <Grunt> er
22:53:01 <Grunt> wait
22:53:04 <Grunt> late 2005 for DCSS
22:53:05 <Grunt> wow
22:53:11 <Grunt> git still predates it though!
22:53:15 <PleasingFungus> by an inch
22:53:22 <Grunt> !send PleasingFungus a mile
22:53:23 <Sequell> Sending a mile to PleasingFungus.
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22:53:58 <|amethyst> well
22:53:59 <PleasingFungus> I'll take it!
22:54:09 <|amethyst> I don't know if I'd call the first few commits "DCSS"
22:54:16 <|amethyst> %git 7b2204d6
22:54:16 <Cheibriados> 07nlanza02 * 7b2204d69f21: Further build cleanup. 10(9 years ago, 29 files, 913+ 4486-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7b2204d69f21
22:54:21 <|amethyst> $git d5e5340
22:54:23 <|amethyst> %git d5e5340
22:54:24 <Cheibriados> 07greensnark02 * d5e5340c3926: Integrated travel patch as of 20060727 10(8 years ago, 106 files, 20221+ 2297-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d5e5340c3926
22:54:40 <|amethyst> (one year gap between those two)
22:54:45 <PleasingFungus> nice
22:54:56 <Grunt> hm
22:55:14 <Grunt> I'm still sad that fixing the git history would murder all of the SHA1s. :(
22:55:36 <PleasingFungus> Fixing the history?
22:55:40 <|amethyst> the nlanza and peterb12 stuff was "crawl-ref"
22:56:04 <Grunt> PleasingFungus: there was a merge in svn that wasn't handled properly in the git import
22:56:16 <Grunt> %git 1d0f57c
22:56:17 <Cheibriados> 07greensnark02 * 1d0f57cbceb7: Merged stone_soup r15:451 into trunk. 10(8 years ago, 180 files, 39016+ 25829-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1d0f57cbceb7
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22:56:25 <Grunt> ^ that's treated as a normal commit
22:56:47 <Grunt> It makes it hard to find the origin of a lot of the really early DCSS changes unless you happen to know where the other side of that merge is.
22:56:54 <PleasingFungus> ahh
22:57:15 <reaverb> Grunt: Hmm, git SHAs are easily manipulateable (by, for example, changing the timestamps)
22:57:35 <reaverb> Maybe it would be possible to add empty commits in a way that would cause a convergence with the new history?
22:57:39 <|amethyst> no
22:57:48 <|amethyst> SHA collisions are really really hard to do
22:57:49 <Grunt> Not possible.
22:58:02 <Grunt> hm
22:58:11 <|amethyst> might be possible with MD5 these days (with enough CPU power) but probably not even that
22:58:13 <Grunt> I swear I had the "other side" commit written down at some point, but now I can't find it.
22:58:34 <|amethyst> reaverb:  if someone found out how to do about it, you'd hear about it
22:59:16 <PleasingFungus> oh yeah
22:59:23 <reaverb> |amethyst: Ah, since SHA is used for cyptography would it have implictions in that field?
22:59:26 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst, would you mind if I reverted your "no leda's + treeform" thing?
23:00:00 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  you should also remove the part of the previous commit that makes them immune to it
23:00:05 <PleasingFungus> why?
23:00:20 <Grunt> hm, this might be it:
23:00:24 <|amethyst> is there any other way to have Leda's active while being immune to it?
23:00:25 <Grunt> %git 6adb570
23:00:25 <Cheibriados> 07haranp02 * 6adb57098482: Implemented ideas from 1590719: Amulets of warding provides one level of negative energy resistance. Negative energy resistance cuts torment damage by 10% (of the damage) per level. 10(8 years ago, 3 files, 7+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6adb57098482
23:00:27 <PleasingFungus> yes
23:00:29 <PleasingFungus> be a naga
23:00:31 <PleasingFungus> or a grey draconian
23:00:32 <Grunt> (I rememberd something with more 0s in the SHA1..)
23:00:42 <PleasingFungus> or a lich or a statue
23:00:43 <Grunt> (but that seems to be the change I'm thinking of)
23:00:57 <PleasingFungus> ...nvm those last two
23:01:02 <PleasingFungus> but naga & grey dracs work, I think
23:01:28 <|amethyst> nagas don't seem to be immune
23:01:38 <|amethyst> nor grey dracs
23:01:42 <PleasingFungus> hm
23:01:48 <reaverb> Oh wow, No SHA1 collisons have ever been created.
23:01:50 <PleasingFungus> they're both extra_balanced()
23:02:05 <|amethyst> hrmm
23:02:17 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  nagas are specifically only extra balances in shallow water
23:02:22 <|amethyst> balanced
23:02:29 <|amethyst> let me ss about this grey drac thing
23:02:31 <|amethyst> see
23:02:31 <PleasingFungus> yeah I see that
23:03:24 <PleasingFungus> even if treeform were the only way to get leda's + immunity, I still hardly think that'd be "overpowered", and I think disabling it is more confusing than the alternative...
23:03:27 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  ah, extra_balanced isn't checked for leda's
23:03:38 <PleasingFungus> wtf
23:03:39 <PleasingFungus> where's the check?
23:04:02 <|amethyst> !source fumbles_attack
23:04:02 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/monster.cc;hb=HEAD#l2865
23:04:07 <|amethyst> if floundering() || liquefied_ground()
23:04:17 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  are you also removing the flight thing?
23:04:23 <|amethyst> that you can't cast it when flying?
23:04:35 <PleasingFungus> of course not
23:04:40 <PleasingFungus> flight is cheap as hell
23:04:45 <PleasingFungus> treeform is extremely limited
23:05:00 <|amethyst> hm
23:05:14 <|amethyst> I guess probably that whole commit should be reverted
23:05:25 <Grunt> Which commit?
23:05:28 <PleasingFungus> why?
23:05:33 <|amethyst> %git 783a5b
23:05:34 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.15-a0-2100-g783a5bf: Make tree form extra-balanced and immune to Leda's. 10(2 days ago, 2 files, 3+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=783a5bfccb75
23:05:38 <|amethyst> oh
23:05:46 <|amethyst> right, you were going to leave it
23:05:47 <|amethyst> nm
23:05:57 * Grunt read "nm" as "hm" for a moment
23:06:10 <|amethyst> 'nm  it broke
23:06:24 <PleasingFungus> all I wanted was
23:06:26 <PleasingFungus> %git a737d34e685053e3
23:06:26 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.15-a0-2101-ga737d34: Prevent casting Leda's in tree form. 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 7+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a737d34e6850
23:06:45 <PleasingFungus> (esp since that was only a half-fix anyway :)
23:06:48 <Grunt> (clearly casting Leda's as a tree instead gets you treant roots)
23:07:55 <PleasingFungus> anyway I'm not gonna revert this if you're not okay with it. I just think you should be okay with it! because it (allowing treeform to cast leda's) is Right and Correct like all of my ideas
23:08:12 * Grunt reverts PleasingFungus's notion of reverting.
23:08:15 <Grunt> (preemptive revert war!)
23:08:19 <PleasingFungus> dang
23:08:23 <Grunt> yeah rip
23:08:34 <|amethyst> hm
23:08:43 -!- nooodl_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
23:08:47 <reaverb> So is anybody in particular planning to fix the spell power thing?
23:08:55 <PleasingFungus> reaverb: ...spellfail thing?
23:09:03 <Grunt> PleasingFungus: the thing |amethyst was talking about
23:09:05 <reaverb> Yes spellfail sorry.
23:09:12 <PleasingFungus> Grunt: see!!!
23:09:17 <PleasingFungus> Right And Correct
23:09:19 <Grunt> !send PleasingFungus things
23:09:20 <Sequell> Sending things to PleasingFungus.
23:09:24 <PleasingFungus> !send Grunt stuff
23:09:24 <Sequell> Sending stuff to Grunt.
23:09:29 <|amethyst> I guess immune leda casting that depends on a consumable (and losing your ability to move) isn't that bad
23:09:31 <Grunt> !send PleasingFungus misc
23:09:31 <Sequell> Sending misc to PleasingFungus.
23:09:41 <gammafunk> PF correctness score, 1 out of 27
23:09:43 <Grunt> !send beam.cc PleasingFungus
23:09:43 <Sequell> Sending PleasingFungus to beam.cc.
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23:09:46 <Grunt> gammafunk: dang
23:09:54 <|amethyst> I'd still be more comfortable removing the leda's immunity at the same time
23:09:55 <PleasingFungus> dangggggg
23:10:14 <|amethyst> (the !is_stationary() in player::liquefied_ground )
23:10:15 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: yeah that's fine. it's not like it's ever gonna come up. it'd just be some neat & rare secret tech
23:10:24 <PleasingFungus> (I was actually going to suggest that as an alternative)
23:10:28 <PleasingFungus> (but I kept getting interrupted!!!)
23:10:38 <PleasingFungus> !send Grunt interruptions
23:10:38 <Sequell> Sending interruptions to Grunt.
23:10:45 <Grunt> !send PleasingFungus silence
23:10:46 <Sequell> Sending silence to PleasingFungus.
23:10:49 <Grunt> (SILENCE!)
23:11:06 <PleasingFungus> oh
23:11:08 <PleasingFungus> I had a bad idea
23:11:12 <Grunt> ??bh
23:11:12 <Sequell> bh[1/4]: <bh> When it comes to stupid ideas, I'm your man.
23:11:13 <Grunt> <3
23:11:32 <PleasingFungus> if I end up making all unbreathing species able to walk in deep water, that'll make grey dracs a little less special
23:11:33 <PleasingFungus> so
23:11:35 <PleasingFungus> clearly
23:11:38 <PleasingFungus> compensate by giving them silence breath
23:11:43 <Grunt> (On the spellfail note: I'm guessing those numbers were generated somehow; we could probably reverse engineer a smooth formula for it)
23:11:55 <Grunt> silence breath
23:11:56 <Grunt> ...
23:11:56 <eb_> silence breath
23:11:59 <PleasingFungus> yes!!!
23:12:00 <gammafunk> the what?
23:12:14 <Grunt> gammafunk: Huh?
23:12:17 <gammafunk> Grunt: errm?
23:12:22 <PleasingFungus> probably it'd tag enemies with a low-duration/intensity silence. this is a Good Idea and everyone should praise me for it
23:12:38 <PleasingFungus> (also I guess it'd do "antisonic damage" or something dumb like that, like purple drac breath)
23:12:47 * Kramin praises PleasingFungus
23:12:47 <Grunt> gammafunk: eh?
23:12:53 * Grunt scolds Kramin.
23:12:59 <gammafunk> Grunt: No, No!
23:12:59 <Basil> Maybe they should breathe gravity
23:13:04 <PleasingFungus> Kramin: extremely correct.
23:13:05 <Grunt> PleasingFungus: curare breath
23:13:06 <Basil> "earthy drac" and such
23:13:09 <eb_> just make them breathe rocks
23:13:15 <PleasingFungus> powerful level 14 upgrade!!!
23:13:17 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: what's the thematic connection to earth?
23:13:23 <eb_> great sandblast breath
23:13:26 <gammafunk> rocks falling into your mouth?
23:13:29 <reaverb> Grunt: Yes, I made a list of points and am trying to find a good place to power fit them.
23:13:33 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: it was more of a thematic connection to not having breath right now
23:13:38 <Grunt> reaverb: I suspected as much.
23:13:38 <PleasingFungus> they'd have... antibreath!!!
23:13:46 <eb_> vacuum cleaner drac
23:13:49 <PleasingFungus> observe my powerful creative process
23:14:02 <gammafunk> they do get +1 earth don't they?
23:14:17 <Kramin> isn't it +2?
23:14:22 <Basil> !apt gray draconian
23:14:23 <Sequell> Could not understand "gray"
23:14:25 <Grunt> !apt grey draconian
23:14:26 <Sequell> Could not understand "grey"
23:14:26 <Grunt> Basil: tsk
23:14:28 <Grunt> er
23:14:29 <Grunt> what
23:14:29 <Basil> !apt grey_draconian
23:14:29 <Sequell> Could not understand "grey_draconian"
23:14:33 <Grunt> !apt gray_draconian
23:14:34 <Sequell> Could not understand "gray_draconian"
23:14:35 <Basil> !apt gray_draconian
23:14:35 <Sequell> Could not understand "gray_draconian"
23:14:37 <Kramin> ??grey draconian
23:14:37 <Grunt> !apt earth
23:14:37 <Sequell> grey draconian[1/1]: A form of draconian which doesn't breathe (they can swim and are unaffected by mephitic clouds). Grey Draconians get stability in water (no fumbling), 5 more AC, +2 Earth, and -2 Air. While in deep water and attacking an enemy in a water tile, they have a trample attack (removed in 0.15).
23:14:38 <Sequell> Earth: DD: 3!, : 2, Gr: 2, Fo: 2, Gh: 1, DE: 1, Ha: 0, Op: 0, Dr: 0, Hu: 0, VS: 0, Ko: 0, HO: 0, Vp: 0, Na: 0, Ds: -1, Sp: -1, Dg: -1, Ce: -1, Tr: -1, Fe: -1, Mu: -2, Mi: -2, : -2, HE: -2, Mf: -2, Te: -3*, Og: -3*
23:14:40 <Grunt> : 2
23:14:41 <eb_> give them passwall as an ability
23:14:44 <Grunt> that would be your grey Dr
23:15:06 <eb_> passwall breath, you send your enemies to the other side of the wall
23:15:16 <Kramin> also 5 more AC
23:15:35 <gammafunk> gray dracs are just a bit weird I guess
23:15:36 <Grunt> imo shatter breath
23:15:49 <Kramin> shatternado breath
23:15:53 <Grunt> yes
23:16:16 <gammafunk> Shatternado II: The Gruntening
23:16:36 <Grunt> gammafunk: there can be only one!!!
23:16:38 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: so are you reverting or am I?
23:16:51 <Grunt> imo both of you
23:16:55 <PleasingFungus> hm
23:16:57 <PleasingFungus> that seems
23:16:59 <PleasingFungus> somehow inefficient
23:17:08 <gammafunk> the rare twin-revert
23:17:10 <Kramin> philosorapter: do two reverts make a commit?
23:17:11 <gammafunk> Quite Powerful
23:17:21 <Grunt> ("Lend your power to revert!" "Very well.")
23:17:31 <|amethyst> %git :/Revert "Revert "Revert "Revert
23:17:32 <Cheibriados> Could not find commit :/Revert "Revert "Revert "Revert (git returned 128)
23:17:34 * Grunt glances around briefly.
23:17:35 <|amethyst> %git :/Revert "Revert "Revert
23:17:35 <Cheibriados> 07kilobyte02 * 0.14-a0-904-g7f6b743: Revert "Revert "Revert "Don't give Gargoyles innate rElec""" 10(8 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7f6b743bca1a
23:17:52 <eb_> and yet triple swords remain in limbo
23:17:57 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  go ahead
23:18:08 <Basil> eb_: that would be a good revert
23:18:30 <gammafunk> but I'm *used* to claymores and bastard swords now
23:18:43 <Grunt> gammafunk: clearly the solution is
23:18:45 <PleasingFungus> I don't actually mind claymores that much, but bastards swords are boring
23:18:46 <Grunt> (wait for it)
23:18:53 <Grunt> double bastard swords and triple claymores
23:18:54 <Grunt> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:19:03 <PleasingFungus> dangggg
23:19:05 <Basil> that works I guess
23:19:10 <|amethyst> I'll repeat my suggestion on the matter
23:19:14 <gammafunk> double double swords, triple double swords, triple triple swords...
23:19:21 <|amethyst> Wait until the Scottish independence referendum in a few months
23:19:26 <Grunt> !send gammafunk quintuple swords and giant spiked demon blades
23:19:26 <Sequell> Sending quintuple swords and giant spiked demon blades to gammafunk.
23:19:27 <Basil> ?/spiked demon
23:19:27 <Sequell> No matches.
23:19:35 <Basil> lame
23:19:40 <Grunt> ??giant spiked demon blade
23:19:40 <Sequell> dark maul[1/1]: New unrand in 0.14. Great mace of crushing with altered stats: Damage 44, Acc -2, Delay 30.
23:19:45 <Basil> mmm
23:19:45 <Grunt> (I miss the old entry ;_;)
23:19:46 <|amethyst> based on the result, either claymore -> triple sword  or  bardiche -> lochaber axe
23:20:00 <Kramin> ??giant spiked demon club
23:20:01 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled giant_spiked_demon_club in my learndb.
23:20:08 <PleasingFungus> hm
23:20:10 <PleasingFungus> I wonder
23:20:11 <Grunt> ??giant spiked demon whip
23:20:12 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled giant_spiked_demon_whip in my learndb.
23:20:12 <Grunt> fr
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23:20:41 <PleasingFungus> doesn't seem to be on oldlearndb
23:20:51 <Grunt> PleasingFungus: sec
23:21:11 <PleasingFungus> (I'd be so sad if someone got rid of oldlearndb. Where would I find my beloved badsa etc?)
23:22:04 <Grunt> hm
23:22:06 <Grunt> I can't find it ;_;
23:22:38 <PleasingFungus> 14. Does anyone actually think draining is a good mechanic? So much about crawl is streamlined to be non-bullshit, but for some reason losing loads of xp near enough unstoppably is still a thing?
23:22:41 <PleasingFungus> BadSA Was Right
23:22:53 <Grunt> gasp
23:23:23 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: I would copy the bad entries onto a local text file or something.
23:23:28 <PleasingFungus> pfeh
23:23:31 <reaverb> Well, I already did >_>
23:23:34 <PleasingFungus> hahahaha
23:23:53 <PleasingFungus> I was going to say something about "cherishing the ephemeral" but I guess that's moot now
23:24:02 <PleasingFungus> in a sense, all learndb edits are just writing on water...
23:24:09 <gammafunk> file name 'reaverb_design_plans.txt' ?
23:24:18 <reaverb> Except for your rc logs
23:24:27 <reaverb> file name badstuff.txt
23:25:25 <reaverb> I'm surprised how hard it is to find a site which will do a strong function fit for a given set of data...
23:25:28 <Kramin> 3. "It's a Giant Spiked Club of Speed! I'm not using it because I'm deadly afraid of ditching my shield."
23:25:37 <PleasingFungus> <3
23:25:54 <Basil> maybe it was a troll
23:25:55 <gammafunk> shield of protection after all!
23:27:27 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2138-g0e2069b: Revert "make tree-form immune to Leda's" 10(8 minutes ago, 2 files, 1+ 9-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0e2069b342cd
23:31:02 <reaverb> Hmm, the error here is pretty large - I don't think these points are represented by a single simple function.
23:31:10 <reaverb> It's an odd distribution.
23:31:43 <Grunt> Well, if it's not that, I wouldn't put it past Linley to have just made up the numbers.
23:31:54 <PleasingFungus> <3
23:32:10 <reaverb> Heh, I think it looks a little piecewise
23:32:44 <Grunt> Maybe the interpolation idea is the best way to go about this?
23:33:32 <reaverb> I think a simple mathematical formula would be better, it's just enough I'm pretty sure it wasn't calculated from a function originally.
23:35:39 <PleasingFungus> http://sprunge.us/hYcP opinions?
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23:35:56 <PleasingFungus> this would affect undead + gargoyles
23:36:02 <PleasingFungus> well, pre-level-14 gargoyles, mainly
23:39:00 <|amethyst> and post-level-14 if there's an item in the water
23:39:09 <PleasingFungus> mm
23:39:10 <PleasingFungus> true
23:39:19 <|amethyst> I don't know if it's a good idea for 0.15
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23:39:42 <PleasingFungus> I'll toss it & associated monster changes in a branch for now.
23:40:07 <|amethyst> since it's a pretty big balance change with the main justifications being realism and consistency
23:40:15 <PleasingFungus> well, not "realism" :)
23:40:21 <PleasingFungus> but consistency and flavor, yes
23:40:22 <|amethyst> and right now we need to be tweaking balance, not throwing it off
23:40:26 <PleasingFungus> fair enough
23:41:23 <|amethyst> I have yet to see a real-world undead that couldn't walk through water!
23:41:31 <|amethyst> that's realism!
23:41:35 <PleasingFungus> Yeah, well, I've yet to see one that *could*!
23:41:46 <PleasingFungus> wham, bam, pow. Logical punch straight to the kisser!
23:41:56 <Grunt> PleasingFungus, soaked and fell apart.
23:42:24 <|amethyst> The power of logic protects me: http://s-z.org/neil/images/logiclane.jpg
23:43:00 <Grunt> dang
23:43:13 <PleasingFungus> remarkable
23:47:45 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2139-g05c403e: Clean up transform.cc slightly 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=05c403e465d1
23:47:57 <Grunt> PleasingFungus: very slight indeed
23:48:20 <PleasingFungus> just poking around the edges of the problem
23:48:23 <PleasingFungus> as is my way
23:49:07 * Grunt pokes PleasingFungus around the edges.
23:49:14 <reaverb> species_can_swim vs. species_likes_water is probably going to cuase a bug some day.
23:49:26 <PleasingFungus> yes
23:49:36 <PleasingFungus> I have a half-finished patch that "fixes" that
23:49:47 <PleasingFungus> but I ran out of energy halfway through
23:50:05 <PleasingFungus> fun fact: can_swim() does not actually imply the ability to swim
23:50:38 <PleasingFungus> (there are player_can_swim, form_can_swim, and species_can_swim functions, as well as _likes_water and _likes_lava functions)
23:51:03 -!- TS__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:51:09 <Grunt> (todo: revive salamanders so that _likes_lava is useful again)
23:51:22 <PleasingFungus> do it!!!
23:54:17 <Grunt> dev_likes_species_likes_lava
23:54:20 <reaverb> alternatively remove lava <_< >_>
23:54:29 * Grunt removes reaverb.
23:55:01 * PleasingFungus pours blue lava all over reaverb!
23:55:09 <Grunt> fr: green lava
23:55:19 <Grunt> (You fall into the forest!)
23:55:24 <PleasingFungus> you die...
23:55:24 <Sequell> Save macros?
23:55:27 <PleasingFungus> <3
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23:55:38 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ-yGJIT-hA
23:55:48 <PleasingFungus> Dang
23:55:57 <Grunt> (todo: adjust that :beh: so that it occasionally returns "rip")
23:55:58 <PleasingFungus> that is really cool
23:56:42 <reaverb> It already returns "Xom revives you!" sometimes IIRC
23:56:49 <Grunt> It does.
23:56:52 <Kramin> there's already a rip one too
23:56:54 <Kramin> rip
23:56:57 <Kramin> rip
23:57:05 <Kramin> I think it's random
23:57:20 <reaverb> Kramin: Not for rip, having Sequell say "rip" when you say "You die..."
23:57:25 <Grunt> q??:beh:[5
23:57:26 <Sequell> :beh:[5/17]: You die... ::: $(if (rand 5) $(quote "Save macros?") $(quote "Xom revives you!"))
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23:57:48 <PleasingFungus> !tell Lasty "Is it intended for Ru's Horror to react to things you can't actually see, but are theoretically in LOS radius?  it's like antennae only going AAA SOMETHING IS THERE AND I'M SCAREd"
23:57:48 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let lasty know.
23:57:55 <reaverb> And yes :beh: commbands are often random, You die.. isn't just because it's so rare.
23:57:56 <Grunt> q??:beh:[13
23:57:56 <Sequell> :beh:[13/17]: rip\b>>> ::: $(if (not (rand 20)) rip)
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23:58:14 <Grunt> ??goodsequell[$
23:58:14 <Sequell> goodsequell[7/7]: <Grunt> RIP AND TEAR <Sequell> rip
23:58:16 <Grunt> <3
23:58:38 <reaverb> !tell Lasty Besides that Horr gives a lot of message spam and a constant status, so I'm not sure how well it wokrs. <_< >_>. Using Horr as Antennae is funny though.
23:58:38 <Sequell> reaverb: OK, I'll let lasty know.
23:59:04 <PleasingFungus> !send reaverb cang
23:59:04 <Sequell> cang
23:59:49 <reaverb> Yes, the :beh: disables commands.
23:59:52 <Kramin> \\!send PleasingFungus cang
23:59:52 <Sequell> Sending cang to PleasingFungus.
23:59:56 <PleasingFungus> whaaa