00:01:15 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:01:23 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:04:17 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: qqqqqqq] 00:06:24 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:06:26 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-3157-gf92f90f (34) 00:09:36 -!- rast- has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:44 %players 00:09:45 jspanek2 (L27 @ Zig:10, T:143637), psygenic (L26 @ Dis:4, T:106614), tizzy (L23 @ Depths:4, T:61507), straydog (L22 @ Vaults:2, T:56543), Zalbag (L20 @ Vaults:3, T:68337), melllvar (L19 @ Elf:3, T:44341), icantfindaname (L17 @ Lair:2, T:46149), skillrobin (L16 @ Orc:1, T:30024), LordSloth (L15 @ Lair:1, T:51591), mitch45678 (L15 @ D:14, T:28183), raskol (L15 @ Lair:5, T:30259), ZeeToo (L14 @ Orc:4, T:26791), winsbury.. 00:09:56 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 00:15:01 dpeg keeps telling me to delay putting the forgotten in the tavern, but I'm not sure why...and it's starting to bother me. 00:15:27 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 00:21:19 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:22:01 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:22:18 -!- melena has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:27 I want to just do it anyways. ._. 00:25:25 -!- LordSloth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:13 03wheals02 07* 0.14-a0-3158-g30f8622: Update the FAQ. 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 17+ 111-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=30f8622fbcbd 00:28:27 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 00:31:15 -!- Stelpa6 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:32:10 -!- Bcadren_ is now known as Bcadren 00:38:03 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:38:28 03elliptic02 07* 0.14-a0-3159-g5cc96d4: Remove pre-identification of unpossessed scrolls/potions by Ar/Wn. 10(10 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 37-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5cc96d46d8b2 00:39:28 rip ar/wn reasons 00:44:22 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 00:51:06 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 00:51:13 huh why is this channel +s 00:51:46 should probably at least be mentioned in the ##crawl topic since people are usually told to come here for crashes and the like 00:52:13 also fr ##crawl topic gets updated more than annually 00:55:10 <|amethyst> If you want ##crawl to have a different topic, why mention it here? 00:55:33 <|amethyst> It's not like devs are automatically ##crawl ops or something 00:57:04 <|amethyst> but thank you for reminding me to leave ##crawl 00:57:30 -!- Zilis is now known as aqua_regia 00:58:18 <|amethyst> as for +s, I imagine some people don't want everyone in the world to know they're a game dev 00:58:41 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 00:59:04 -!- aqua_regia is now known as Zilis 00:59:05 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Client Quit] 01:00:48 <|amethyst> maybe +p would be plenty 01:01:11 -!- Zilis is now known as Kayle 01:01:26 -!- Kayle is now known as Zileas 01:01:33 -!- Zileas is now known as Zilean 01:02:21 -!- Zilean is now known as MrRen 01:02:49 -!- Escalator has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:35 ...don't even know what the +x indicators mean, I just realized 01:06:47 -!- AlphaQ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:37 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:10:46 http://www.freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml 01:16:34 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.14-a0-3159-g5cc96d4 (34) 01:16:38 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:19:17 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:19:37 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 01:21:13 -!- home has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29:44 -!- nonethousand has quit [Quit: .] 01:35:36 -!- Bcadren has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:37:17 -!- soundlust|2 has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:43:58 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:44:35 -!- Foamed has quit [Quit: Heading to bed.] 01:47:02 -!- nubcakes has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:48:43 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 03:00:46 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:02:26 -!- soundlust|2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:03:13 -!- ebarrett_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:03:13 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:04:48 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:08:38 -!- bananaken has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:08:54 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:09:42 -!- rast- has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:09 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 03:14:06 -!- gnum_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:17:19 -!- Nethris has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:18:02 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Client Quit] 03:22:40 -!- icantfindaname has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:33:54 -!- Bovinius has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:38:17 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:44:52 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 03:48:46 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:50:07 Multi-tile door uses wrong tiles by Sar 03:54:38 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:57:48 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:47 -!- utrick has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17:18 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:18:05 -!- LogicNinja has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:26:59 -!- Keanan has left ##crawl-dev 04:45:59 -!- Psyknux has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:48:33 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:51:15 whig (L16 HOFi) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 499: mid cache bogosity: no monster for 703 (Swamp:3) 04:51:22 whig (L16 HOFi) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 499: mid cache bogosity: no monster for 703 (Swamp:3) 04:52:04 whig (L16 HOFi) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 499: mid cache bogosity: no monster for 703 (Swamp:3) 05:00:30 !crashlog whig 05:00:31 6. whig, XL16 HOFi, T:33349 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/whig/crash-whig-20140309-095201.txt 05:04:25 -!- jeffro_ is now known as jeffro 05:04:25 -!- jeffro has quit [Changing host] 05:04:26 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 05:06:38 -!- poopfist42 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:09:57 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:10:23 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 05:11:28 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 05:17:13 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:31:03 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:36:48 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 05:39:30 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:45:18 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:48:33 -!- stickyfingers has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:54:12 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:58:28 -!- minmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:58:58 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:01:21 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:07:22 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:31:28 -!- RZX has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 27.0.1/20140212131424]] 06:32:09 -!- conted has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:37:01 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:47:43 -!- stickyfingers has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:48:07 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:49:15 -!- david is now known as Guest22653 06:53:05 -!- Guest22653 has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:10 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:56:45 -!- Aponym has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:08:58 -!- gnum_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:09:10 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:10:29 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:10:40 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 07:10:41 -!- rast- is now known as rast 07:11:28 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:12:25 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:13:48 -!- whig has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:14:41 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:14:42 -!- whig has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:45 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:24:01 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:25:59 -!- Wolpertinger has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:27:14 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:48:02 -!- stickyfingers_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:53:43 -!- radinms has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 07:58:14 Hide item quotes in local tiles when hovering items or map tiles by chris 08:08:21 Shop interface overhaul by chris 08:09:19 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:48 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 08:20:58 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:25:07 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:32:00 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:29 -!- AreBrandon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:37:38 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:47:19 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:47:22 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 08:47:24 -!- rast- is now known as rast 08:52:33 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:52:53 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:54:46 -!- Nerem has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:07:50 -!- rorriMnmaD has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:10:16 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:48 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:20:41 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:53 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 09:25:25 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:28 -!- vadatajs has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:19 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:16:42 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Client Quit] 10:16:50 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 10:17:46 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:22:54 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:11 -!- Flun has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:29:32 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:36 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:36 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:29 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: sounds like there's more to the Vampire lichform thing than we thought 10:33:34 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:45 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: since there's a bug reported on CRD that it affects mummies and ghouls too 10:34:41 oh wow, yeah 10:34:56 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: but I don't see how that could happen, unless it doesn't go through transform 10:35:06 <|amethyst> or somehow previous_trans == which_trans 10:35:20 <|amethyst> hm, no, even that would just extend the duration, not add a new one 10:35:31 <|amethyst> s/through transform/through transform()/ 10:38:46 ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 612: bogus mc (no monster data): invalid monster_type 1000 (1000) 10:38:46 %??lost soul 10:38:55 known bug with monster? 10:38:58 <|amethyst> yeah 10:39:15 <|amethyst> it has an iteration to check for special abilities 10:39:34 <|amethyst> but the lost soul ceases to exist before the loop is over 10:41:51 <|amethyst> hm 10:42:28 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 10:42:43 -!- notcluie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:42:54 So, you know how AT_SHOOT attacks boost ranged damage for M_ARCHER monsters? 10:43:18 I turns out they actually don't 10:43:22 And may never have 10:43:33 Not as far back as 'initial revision', anyway 10:44:04 maybe just as well... 10:44:11 are there master archer monsters that need more damage? that's javelineers, demas, satyrs, right? 10:44:17 none of those seem to have lethality problems 10:44:22 marksnagas 10:44:22 Yes, I don't think master archers actually need buffs :P 10:44:37 yeah, if it really has never boosted damage then I think we can consider that the intended behavior :P 10:44:41 But given that the values for this have been adjusted more than once, and people appear to think it means something... 10:44:53 Yes, but then it probably should be removed so that it doesn't mislead people into thinking it does something 10:45:07 <|amethyst> and those monsters should have their damage set to zero? 10:45:13 DracoOmega: right 10:45:17 |amethyst: huh? 10:45:19 Well, they can just lose the AT_SHOOT attack? 10:45:22 deep elf master archer (15e) | Spd: 10 (msl: 60%) | HD: 15 | HP: 63-85 | AC/EV: 0/15 | Dam: 25, 5 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, master archer | Res: 06magic(100) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2506 | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 10:45:22 <|amethyst> %??deep elf master archer 10:45:26 Which should not actually make them do any less damage 10:45:40 <|amethyst> wait 10:45:42 (Also, it makes Monster less misleading, since it never affected melee anyway, and Monster does not distinguish) 10:45:45 <|amethyst> I'm confused 10:46:04 <|amethyst> {AT_SHOOT, AF_PLAIN, 25}, 10:46:05 |amethyst: That first 25 there is not a melee attack. It is 'supposed' to boost their ranged damage, but actually doesn't 10:46:08 <|amethyst> Right 10:46:16 <|amethyst> so that number should be set to zero, right? 10:46:28 Does it actually affect rate of fire just to have it? 10:46:29 <|amethyst> so it doesn't continue to mislead people 10:46:42 As opposed to removing it altogether 10:46:48 wait, is that how AT_SHOOT works really? 10:47:01 That is something it is supposed to do, according to the code 10:47:03 But it doesn't work 10:47:10 It adds a bonus to its damage, but this gets reset before being used 10:47:22 (Note that it DOES add accuracy to THROWN weapons) 10:47:23 adds a bonus to what damage? 10:47:29 The missile damage 10:47:50 See throw.cc, line 2137 10:48:25 <|amethyst> and then line 2228 10:48:28 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:48:39 Yeah 10:48:44 hm, so currently DEMA does less damage than a regular centaur aside from having much higher HD and such? 10:48:50 -!- valtern has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:48:54 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 10:49:01 Well, the damage is based almost wholly on HD in the first place 10:49:16 Their 25 damage AT_SHOOT attack is 'supposed' to boost it a bit more, but does nothing in that regard 10:50:38 <|amethyst> // Archers get a boost from their melee attack. 10:50:48 <|amethyst> isn't that comment also a lie, even if the code did work as intended 10:50:55 <|amethyst> since AT_SHOOT is not a melee attack 10:51:11 |amethyst: well, how do centaurs etc work? 10:51:17 they just have a melee attack 10:51:20 centaur (07c) | Spd: 15 | HD: 4 | HP: 13-32 | AC/EV: 3/7 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(16) | XP: 112 | Sz: Large | Int: normal. 10:51:20 <|amethyst> %??centaur 10:51:29 is the damage there totally irrelevant? 10:51:31 The AT_SHOOT is not actually necessary for them to fire 10:51:36 Yes, the damage there is totally irrelevant 10:51:44 I see, I never realized that 10:51:56 Well, it wasn't supposed to be irrelevant. The code claims it's relevant. 10:52:01 But the code is broken 10:52:04 it sounds in that case like the correct fix is probably just to remove AT_SHOOT altogether? 10:52:15 It might well be, yes. I am double-checking that this does not have other effects. 10:52:18 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:52:22 Well, it actually does boost javelineer accuracy 10:52:25 <|amethyst> Would that still allow statues to shoot arrows 10:52:47 <|amethyst> since they turn AT_WEAP_ONLY into AT_SHOOT 10:52:54 Like, the behavior of shooting in melee range is controlled by the M_ARCHER flag, not the presence of an AT_SHOOT attack 10:52:59 Hmmm 10:53:21 <|amethyst> My guess it it probably would still allow it 10:53:34 <|amethyst> since AT_SHOOT doesn't seem to be checked anywhere relevant 10:53:37 Yeah 10:53:58 -!- stickyfingers has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:54:19 So maybe the only obvious effect is a +8 average to-hit bonus from javelineer javelins 10:55:08 <|amethyst> hm 10:55:38 <|amethyst> I guess LRET_FUMBLED cannot happen with monsters? 10:55:39 Since the thrown accuracy part of it ISN'T broken 10:56:03 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:57:26 <|amethyst> couldn't you just give that to throwing archers regardless? 10:57:40 -!- Napcat has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:57:43 Yes, sure 10:57:49 (There's only just the one, anyway) 10:58:59 I think AT_WEAP_ONLY could probably also be removed? Though I guess what it currently means is that archer statues cannot melee at all (and otherwise they could, but would still shoot in melee if they could) 10:59:13 I imagine that +8 accuracy isn't a big deal anyway 10:59:17 <|amethyst> removed entirely? 10:59:26 <|amethyst> doesn't that mean statues wouldn't be able to attack at all? 10:59:35 <|amethyst> melee statues that is 10:59:37 No, just replace their attack with AT_HIT 11:00:00 DracoOmega: it might mean that archer statues that run out of ammo will hit you with the bow? 11:00:03 elliptic: Yeah, it very well mightn't be. I'm not sure how much effect that works out to. It just seems to be the only ACTUAL effect. 11:00:11 <|amethyst> also, non-weapon statues 11:00:12 right 11:00:19 elliptic: They might swap it away and punch you, but yeah 11:00:29 <|amethyst> it would mean Isk's statues would punch you if you get too close, I think 11:00:43 Haha 11:00:44 Maybe 11:00:50 That's a hilarious image, really 11:01:47 -!- argaergaerg has quit [Client Quit] 11:03:51 For comparison, a javelineer's average accuracy without the +8 bonus is 29 11:04:12 So it's about +25% 11:06:39 no wonder they're aimbotters 11:10:06 OP 11:10:08 I guess preserving the non-melee behavior on those statues is maybe a valid reason to let AT_WEAP_ONLY and thus AT_SHOOT continue to exist, even if AT_SHOOT should not be used on other monsters (I do feel it might be nicer to get rid of it entirely, though) 11:10:10 <|amethyst> hmm 11:10:45 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: maybe you don't need AT_SHOOT though? 11:10:49 Is there some way to keep AT_WEAP_ONLY without AT_SHOOT? 11:11:17 |amethyst: Oh, I guess it could just map to AT_NONE, couldn't it 11:11:20 Which wouldn't stop them firing 11:11:33 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: maybe? 11:11:53 -!- notcluie__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:12:17 Yeah, you don't need an attack to fire a missile weapon (just checked) 11:12:32 So it seems fine to map onto AT_NONE and remove AT_SHOOT, I think 11:13:07 <|amethyst> well 11:13:54 <|amethyst> ah, yeah, melee_attack::handle_phase_attempted skips those attacks anyway 11:14:31 As far as I can see, AT_SHOOT really is the same as AT_NONE, except for providing some missile damage bonuses that don't work :P 11:14:43 (Aside from throwing weapons) 11:15:19 -!- Napcat has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:15:19 yeah, that's what it looks like to me too 11:16:30 <|amethyst> ah, and I guess the dead-assignment analysis SLi ran didn't catch this because of LRET_FUMBLED 11:16:54 What? 11:17:28 <|amethyst> when projected == LRET_LAUNCHED the ammoDamBonus += ... is a dead assignment 11:17:37 <|amethyst> since the value is overwritten before it is read 11:17:45 <|amethyst> however, when projected == LRET_FUMBLED that is not the case 11:17:53 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:18 <|amethyst> and the static analysis would of course not know that monsters can't use LRET_FUMBLED 11:18:28 Ah 11:19:52 -!- Napcat has quit [Client Quit] 11:19:59 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:21:01 So I guess I'll go ahead and remove that now? 11:21:59 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:22:46 <|amethyst> Sounds good 11:22:54 <|amethyst> could just give the acc bonus to all archers 11:23:10 <|amethyst> (thrown weapons only I mean) 11:23:44 Yes, I suspect I will do that 11:23:59 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:24:49 yeah, might as well... one more special casing of thrown vs launched in throw.cc won't be noticed 11:25:13 <|amethyst> elliptic: it wouldn't even be one more 11:25:25 |amethyst: I meant compared to just removing it 11:25:29 <|amethyst> ah :) 11:25:38 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:25:47 <|amethyst> I mean, we could give the acc bonus to everyone 11:25:51 Some year maybe this code will be rewritten :P 11:26:08 (Thank you for volunteering yourself for that task. <_<) 11:26:11 <|amethyst> But, as was pointed out, the others don't need it 11:30:40 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:04 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:59 -!- jday_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:37:41 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:50 -!- raskol has quit [Quit: quit] 11:38:50 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:39:16 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:40:01 -!- rast- has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:40:38 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:41:44 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 11:43:07 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 11:43:41 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:44:13 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-3160-gb1a6962: Disable the "Rearrange the Pieces" monster spell. 10(3 minutes ago, 6 files, 25+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b1a69621d348 11:44:15 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:46:08 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:42 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:50 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:52:02 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:08 -!- stickyfingers_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:53:18 How do folks feel about cross-training? Should we retain anti-training? https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11258 11:53:28 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:53:37 -!- rast- is now known as rast 11:55:11 <|amethyst> do we even keep track of how much XP has been put into a skill? 11:55:19 using xp doesn't make much sense, yeah 11:55:45 <|amethyst> it would also mean that weapons you trained early don't contribute as much to crosstraining as ones you trained late 11:55:47 skill points is the thing to use I think... but even then I don't understand this formula 11:56:10 doesn't it mean that sometimes you will have long blades higher than short blades but effective short blades skill is higher? 11:56:43 elliptic: yes, that sounds possible 11:57:11 |amethyst: I thought there was a 1:1 mapping between experience and skill points? 11:57:11 How about this: Whevener you put Y XP into skill B you get Y * discount XP placed into each of the skills which crosstrain with B. 11:57:20 or do lower skills increase higher skills 11:57:26 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:57:55 elliptic: The only problem with lower skills improving higher ones is that the discount factor needs to be non-linear 11:58:04 anyway my suggestion on IRC in the last conversation was different from this 11:58:15 <|amethyst> bh: skill point costs increase as you get more skills total 11:58:18 hrm... nevermind. If we're tracking skill point costs rather than skill levels, it shouldn't be an issue 11:58:19 <|amethyst> bh: see calc_skill_cost 11:58:45 |amethyst: :( 11:59:00 choose a function f(x,y) that is symmetric and satisfies f(x,0) = x, x <= f(x,y) <= x+y 11:59:45 elliptic: it shouldn't be symmetric? 11:59:52 then the cost (in skill points) for raising two crosstraining skills to N is equal to f(x,y), where x is the cost for raising just the first to N and y is the cost for raising just the second to N 12:00:22 and the cost for raising one of the skills to N and the other to N+M is equal to the cost of raising both skills to N + the cost of raising the second skill from N to N+M 12:00:23 -!- Staplegun is now known as sgun 12:01:04 <|amethyst> by symmetric, you mean f(x, y) = f(y, x) ? 12:01:08 yes 12:01:11 <|amethyst> doesn't that mean f(x, 0) = f(0, x) 12:01:15 yes 12:01:20 so f(0,y) = y 12:01:24 which is correct 12:01:44 <|amethyst> elliptic: so if you have 0 lbl and 10 sbl, that should give 10 skill in lbl? 12:01:47 huh? 12:01:52 right. You should never be able to raise Long Blades to (n+1) by raising Short Blades to (m + x) where the cost of raising shortblades to (m+x) is lower than the cost of (n+1) 12:02:25 <|amethyst> elliptic: wait, what is f(x, y)? 12:02:26 |amethyst: this is not using the effective skill terminology 12:03:05 |amethyst: if raising short blades to level 10 requires x skill points and raising long blades to level 10 requires y skill points, then f(x,y) is the number of skill points to raise both skills to 10 12:03:16 <|amethyst> oh 12:03:19 this should clearly be between max(x,y) and x+y 12:03:32 <|amethyst> I thought f was supposed to be the effective level 12:03:35 <|amethyst> not the cost 12:03:42 I didn't say anything about "effective" 12:03:54 this is not using that terminology. 12:04:32 f is just a function that controls how strong the crosstraining is, which we pick 12:04:40 -!- Bcadren has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:59 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:31 <|amethyst> hm 12:05:33 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:36 <|amethyst> shouldn't it have three variables? 12:05:42 basically what I am proposing is the current system, except that instead of skills benefiting from crosstraining getting a +4 apt boost, they get the boost necessary to make things commute 12:06:20 <|amethyst> because m+f/axe/pole/staff get crosstraining from two sources 12:06:35 right, what I was saying is the case where you just have two skills involved 12:06:49 things are more complicated for that square of four skills 12:08:19 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:08:32 -!- rast- is now known as rast 12:10:17 bh: so with your proposal, I think it only really makes sense if lower base skills also help higher base skills using the same formula 12:10:36 elliptic: I agree with that 12:10:57 As long as it's always cheaper to naturally increase a skill, versus raising it via cross-training 12:12:36 -!- eoc_ is now known as eoc 12:12:43 it will be as long as the "discount" value in your formula is less than 1 12:12:52 (if you are using skill points rather than xp) 12:13:09 OK. First thing, I'm going to create a branch :) 12:14:17 so I guess I like your proposal better in some ways (simplicity mainly), but it is further away from how crosstraining currently works and has some minor issues at 27 12:14:23 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:15:01 skills beyond 27? :) 12:15:18 (the minor issues are that if you raise skill A to 27 and then decide that you also want skill B (crosstraining) to be at 27 as well, then you end up being slightly inefficient 12:15:20 ) 12:15:44 but that isn't really a situation that plausibly appears in practice 12:16:46 hrm. Should we allow (base + cross_train_bonus) to exceed 27 even if the total usable skill is capped at 27? 12:17:21 antitraining with skills at 0 might also be a little weird... since effectively it will take a little while for the effective skill to raise beyond 0.0 even after you start training it 12:17:25 It would matter, albeit very slightly, in terms of draining 12:17:27 but that's probably okay too 12:17:38 Do you even want to maintain antitraining? 12:17:54 I like antitraining, what is the argument against it? 12:18:21 It's rarely meaningful. 12:18:40 -!- odiv_ is now known as odiv 12:18:41 I've anti-trained a bit on a character. 12:18:43 I think earth/air is more meaningful than ice/fire 12:18:44 what makes you say that? 12:18:52 it seems meaningful to me... 12:19:18 Did it to get Magma available at good power on a primarily ice/earth user... 12:19:32 PleasingFungus: yeah. I can see someone picking up dig/rmsl versus iron shot / freezing clouds 12:21:19 Fire is close to literally all destruction. Ice is more defensive. Earth is AC defensive and high attack. Air is speed EV defensive and lesser attack. I see the choice being there. 12:21:51 <|amethyst> shouldn't it have three variables? It is already highly undesirable to train two skills that do the same thing (which is what elemental skills do, the same thing)" 12:21:54 <|amethyst> err 12:21:54 <|amethyst> oops 12:22:00 <|amethyst> " It is already highly undesirable to train two skills that do the same thing (which is what elemental skills do, the same thing)" 12:22:12 people train ice+air or fire+air or earth+fire or earth+ice 12:22:40 also, it isn't just about training both skills... antitraining also adds a higher cost to switching elements if you already have some investment in one 12:23:29 -!- nixor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:23:35 This reminds me of multiclass penalties in D&D 2e 12:23:38 I can see an argument that antitraining removes some interesting options for character builds; I really don't buy this "it does nothing" argument 12:24:11 <|amethyst> maybe we should just remove the elemental skills 12:24:12 Well, if I may say, minmay is pretty apt to consider a great many things 'useless' or 'irrelevant' that don't actually seem to be at all 12:24:18 elliptic: I think the argument is more "It does nothing, because no one would make those choices in the first place" 12:24:18 <|amethyst> or replace them with "elemental magic" 12:24:18 (That was a minmay quote, yes?) 12:24:21 <|amethyst> since they do the same thing 12:24:50 bh: but people do often seem to have nontrivial skill in two different elements... I'm not talking about 20 in each, but 8 in one and 20 in another 12:24:58 sure 12:25:50 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: yes, but that post has more thanks than anything in the thread except bh's first post 12:26:04 That is true for a lot of what he says, as well 12:26:11 That doesn't necessarily make it more factually correct 12:26:12 are we using "has 3 thanks" as a basis for design decisions now 12:26:41 (In fact, a lot of things that are blatantly factually INCORRECT get a lot of thanks if they happen to just line up with people's biases >.>) 12:26:44 <|amethyst> I'm not using anything as the basis for design decisions 12:26:55 <|amethyst> since I'm not making design decisions 12:27:07 Anti-training certainly has a big impact on my decision making, maybe I'm over estimating the cost though. 12:27:10 <|amethyst> I mean, I find myself affected by antitraining but I'm a terrible player 12:27:13 i never train fire+ice or earth+air and don't personally see a reason to since i'd rather just get melee 12:27:18 but maybe this is just me 12:27:19 haha 12:27:32 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:27:38 I very very very occasionally get a few points in antitrained skills 12:27:49 I will sometimes train a little air on an earth character, for some of the buffs 12:27:59 I don't think antitraining makes a huge difference in just that context 12:28:36 I've definitely found myself refraining from memorizing elemental spells that otherwise I would be tempted to train because of antitraining making getting 8 in that element much more expensive... I've also sometimes decided that the price was worth it anyway 12:28:44 <|amethyst> crate: how is melee at all similar to fire + ice? 12:28:49 Anti-training also walls off the possibility of having an Earth/Air or Fire/Ice spell unless you wanted it to be really hard to get good spell power on... 12:28:51 it uses xp 12:28:55 <|amethyst> crate: I mean, you're saying that your FEs go melee-only? 12:28:58 -!- nixor1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:29:00 fire + melee, yes 12:29:07 <|amethyst> oh 12:29:12 and non-ice things like charms 12:29:38 Well, I can certainly say that probably there were cases I've NOT trained things because of antitraining I guess, yes 12:29:40 i would occasionally pick up poison arrow or summons if i wanted non-fire spells that deal damage but i dont usualy even do that 12:29:47 I've done freezing cloud + fireball a decent amount 12:29:58 or freezing cloud + bolt of fire 12:30:00 ok. time to implement. 12:30:07 Like, maybe I would have gotten ozocubu's armour on a fire elementalist if not for antitraining 12:30:24 i guess i dont care about antitraining one way or the other but it doesn't make sense to me to penalise something that i think you don't want to do anyway 12:30:24 That seems like something I would sometimes do without antitraining that I don't presently do 12:30:29 even without the penalty 12:30:41 DracoOmega now the question is do we want that possibility? 12:30:45 on those chars, I previously trained more air than ice for freezing cloud because of antitraining (but still getting 4-6 ice) 12:31:19 Using Stoneskin and RMsl together is another such prospect. 12:31:19 well yes ozo's armour on FE is a thing but I don't really like ozo's armour as a spell anyway :p 12:31:26 and without antitraining, I would probably have gotten more ice than air and might have picked up bolt of cold 12:31:40 but i would personally never b.fire + fcloud 12:31:44 doesnt make sense to me lol 12:32:00 Ozo's armour is so touchy. 12:32:04 anyway I don't love antitraining but it definitely affects some of my decisions 12:32:07 One little puff of flame and it's all gone! 12:32:09 it's not really 12:32:17 at least at decent skill, it can take a few fire hits before elapsing 12:32:21 I'll be sure to retain it 12:32:21 <|amethyst> wait, ozo's on a FE? 12:32:28 <|amethyst> doesn't it go away when you cast a spell? 12:32:39 ozo's on a FE sounds pretty bad given it disappears whenever you cast a fire spell, yes :P 12:33:09 You made me look up my skills on my first win. 12:33:33 Doesn't it only get a bit of duration reduction? 12:33:37 Like when you get hit? 12:33:52 i had honestly forgotten that it goes away when you cast fire spells 12:34:01 wow i hate ozo's arnour 12:34:01 hrm. Should I leave manuals alone? 12:34:18 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:34:23 bh: manuals should just affect the base skill, no? 12:34:41 DracoOmega: yes 12:34:43 Hehe, first win skills. 12:34:44 oh 12:34:46 nvm 12:34:51 elliptic: Yes, but glancing at the codepath they provide a training bonus in a similar way to crosstraining 12:35:12 Icestorm at 100+ power and 4% fail at 20 conj/18 ice. 12:35:29 bh: I think that manuals don't have the same problems with training things in different orders though 12:35:42 I can say without a doubt that without antitraining I would have taken the opposite skills to higher than 3.0 without antitraining, especially since I used bolt of magma for a goodwhile... 12:35:56 so letting them continue to work the way they do seems fine unless I am forgetting something 12:36:23 Well, it's not like a person normally has an option to use a manual for the right skill at the optimal time to train it relative to something else 12:36:30 Even if there were some quirks 12:36:54 I wouldn't mind if antitraining was replaced with crosstraining and ceased to exist. 12:37:06 it wouldn't matter most of the time 12:37:12 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 12:37:24 and it'd be handy in the few times it does 12:37:33 Bones of my first win; since I just looked it up again; I'll reshare: http://pastebin.com/QQ6Vzgij 12:38:30 anyway I see the benefit of antitraining is that it makes you somewhat less likely to always memorize the same spells, and the drawback is that it is extra complication and makes some spells less likely to be used in tandem 12:39:00 the spells that i always memorize don't seem that affected by anti-training in general 12:39:34 clearly should have conj + summoning antitrain! 12:39:38 ackack: right, a lot of good elemental spells aren't (e.g. sticky flame, rMsl) 12:40:09 in principle, making committal decisions is good 12:40:25 in practice, the relative costs of a few points in even an anti-trained school are generally just not that large in the long run 12:40:39 and early on when the xp matters more it's somewhat uncommon for this to be an issue (because you need multiple opposing books) 12:40:41 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/Sharpdressed_OGRE.png if only dolls looked this good most of the time 12:42:48 the argument I'm hearing is that antitraining should be replaced with locking out opposed schools entirely 12:42:52 to encourage more interesting decisions 12:42:54 :) 12:44:40 I guess the other thing about opposing elemental schools is that enhancers for one are usually negative enhancers for the other 12:44:49 wait, really? 12:44:57 that's just goofy. 12:45:05 well, staff of air is a negative enhancer for earth, etc 12:45:31 more anti-training or even some cross-training in magic makes sense...like crosstrain poison->necro since poison loses it's potential relatively early and both schools don't affect demons are are about death. 12:45:42 would we also remove this if we removed antitraining? 12:46:13 it would be sort of cool if ring of ice + ring of fire actually did something, even if it wouldn't come up much 12:46:29 buff to my fcloud + bolt of fire combo 12:47:11 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:47:39 I'd be a-ok with removing the negative enhancement effects of elemental staves/rings/w/e 12:47:41 because that's silly 12:48:10 The resistance malus is okay though. 12:48:55 they could combine to no resistances and 1.5 enhancers to both schools or something silly like that 12:49:07 I can see it from a flavor perspective the whole, you are closer to fire, so you are farther from ice. 12:49:14 why 1.5 rather than 1 12:49:46 because you could also be wearing two of the same for 2 12:50:01 and suffer two negative resistances in the opposite element 12:50:02 so? 12:50:03 !seen SamB 12:50:03 I last saw SamB at Sun Mar 9 04:28:28 2014 UTC (13h 21m 35s ago) saying 'bh: or at least with something that can be understood' on ##crawl-dev. 12:50:14 you could also be wearing two rings of slaying 12:50:24 or a lot of other combinations of two rings 12:50:24 I know I probably sound like a broken record, but could we move to C++11? 12:50:45 C++11? 12:51:09 Bcadren: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C++11 12:51:13 the language formerly known as c++0x 12:51:24 It took them longer than they thought 12:51:41 bh: well, *I'm* not going to insist that we facilitate ppc+i386 universal builds forever 12:51:53 writing for (auto itr = vector.itr...) is a lot nicer than for (vector::iterator itr = vector.itr...) 12:52:06 <|amethyst> We'll have to drop Mac support 12:52:14 <|amethyst> or at least our provided Mac builds 12:52:24 <|amethyst> since they apparently can't be built with a modern compiler 12:52:37 <|amethyst> I think we should do that anyway 12:52:39 |amethyst: er, would we? I thought it was just that we'd have to drop the "universal" part 12:52:53 <|amethyst> Universal, and support for older versions I think 12:52:56 where it can run on PPC systems, which are still stuck on 10.5 12:53:16 Why translate forward? 12:53:16 <|amethyst> I kind of think we should just drop Mac as an officially-supported platform 12:53:24 <|amethyst> I mean, not remove it 12:53:32 <|amethyst> but stop pretending that we provide mac builds 12:53:45 <|amethyst> since we have to go begging someone on Reddit to compile them for us 12:54:03 <|amethyst> and they're always very out of date 12:54:10 the mac build bug reports on mantis have never been resolved, i see 12:54:25 do the problems still exist 12:54:30 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:54:46 <|amethyst> wheals: which ones? 12:54:53 |amethyst: I think one could probably still build it on PPC 10.5, but Apple's gcc "driver" script doesn't support recent GCC, so there's no more easy universal builds 12:55:05 this is another awful suggestion, but it would be nice to use camelCase for variable names going forward, since most of our type names are written_with_underscores 12:55:13 <|amethyst> ugh 12:55:15 stuff like 7568 12:55:21 <|amethyst> if you want them to be distinct, change the type names 12:55:24 As a not terribly bright programmer, it's nice to be able to distinguish a type and a variable at a glance 12:55:31 -!- jmbto has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:57 i feel like i've seen more types that use camelCase than underscores 12:56:06 that still only matters when they happen to be two words 12:56:12 like StashTracker 12:56:17 <|amethyst> make type names uppercase 12:56:18 so not exactly something you can rely on 12:56:21 <|amethyst> we already do that in a few places 12:56:25 s/underscores/variables/ 12:56:34 <|amethyst> Also, #define Vector vector 12:56:35 bh: hmm, Haskell almost has that, except data constructors use the same naming rules as type constructors ... 12:56:43 <|amethyst> and String and Int 12:57:28 <|amethyst> anyway, for C++, auto is fine, but we can't really switch to C++ entirely 12:57:30 <|amethyst> err 12:57:33 <|amethyst> s/++/++11/ 12:57:36 <|amethyst> g 12:57:44 <|amethyst> Unless we drop Visual Studio support 12:57:56 <|amethyst> (or maybe 2013 added the missing stuff?) 12:58:05 I thought it was OS X that was blocking C++11? 12:58:09 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 12:58:16 both 12:58:21 <|amethyst> Grunt: that's the big one, yes, but 12:58:24 <|amethyst> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh567368.aspx 12:59:03 SamB: do you use Visual Studio? Who among us develops on windows? 12:59:10 Not that I want to cut out potential devs who aren't us 12:59:36 the VS port was pretty recent and someone was using it to do hacking 12:59:37 i think DracoOmega has said he does? 12:59:53 mumra was responsible for the current VS port, IIRC. 12:59:55 I use windows+VS, I don't compile or use the git plugin with it though. 12:59:59 (Vine Stalker port) 13:00:12 (Err Visual studio) 13:00:13 <|amethyst> I mean, VS shouldn't necessarily hold that back 13:00:17 and yes, I was leaning towards DracoOmega as the one who at least tried to use it for debugging ... 13:00:26 <|amethyst> since I don't know if VS builds even work right now 13:00:36 doesn't VS have okayish C++11 yet? 13:01:19 Last I checked there was some... oddities. compiling with Visual Studio, but it worked (at least once) if you did everything. 13:01:31 <|amethyst> SamB: mostly... no constexpr, no inheriting constructors, no attributes, unicode string literals or char32_t, no user-defined literals 13:01:40 <|amethyst> SamB: but keep in mind that not everyone has VS 2013 13:01:44 <|amethyst> since upgrading costs money 13:02:14 |amethyst: hmm, they only have the wchar-based string literals I guess? 13:03:02 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:14 |amethyst: I know, I was thinking we ought to ask DracoOmega about that, and also whether he's using a full version or just VC++ Express 13:03:19 |amethyst: people pay money for IDEs? o_0 13:03:30 Eclipse runs fine on windows, right? 13:03:41 Slowly, but it runs. 13:03:46 bh: that's how things are on Windows, yes 13:03:52 someday I should see if I can turn my local build Makefile hacks into a Portfile 13:03:55 <|amethyst> Does the Eclipse CDT even contain a compiler? 13:03:59 No 13:04:08 You have to specify an externalone. 13:04:26 And it's got... weirdness. 13:04:32 it doesn't ship with a toolkit, or at least alongside one? 13:04:36 huh 13:04:55 so I figured out why my hopping frog-men caused the game to crash whenever they did a semicontrolled blink 13:04:58 -!- revenge has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:02 I mean, they don't at least provide one you can download from the same page as the IDE? 13:05:07 (Or at least the last time I checked which was about a year and a half ago) 13:06:23 with a simple procedure to get everything set up to work together? 13:06:24 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:07:21 -!- stickyfingers has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:07:42 PleasingFungus: Because of this? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8236 13:07:44 <|amethyst> Anyway, I wouldn't let VS hold back C++11 stuff, because it has pretty much all of C++11 we'd use anyway 13:07:56 <|amethyst> but the Mac issue needs some kind of decision 13:07:57 :( 13:08:03 <|amethyst> even if it is "drop PPC binaries" 13:08:16 yes 13:08:28 ah well, I have only myself to blame. 13:08:51 I think a sufficiently-determined PPC user would still be able to compile it 13:09:37 <|amethyst> Well 13:09:41 <|amethyst> that's true of anything 13:09:51 I mean it might not even be particularly difficult 13:09:53 I currently use a mac and have contributed a patch and some tiles, but I've always wanted an excuse to set up a Linux VM. 13:09:57 I personally never even tried 13:10:09 I built on PPC not very long ago 13:10:11 <|amethyst> SamB: I think you overestimate the computer-savviness of the average Mac user 13:10:22 is there a flag I can pass to make to force it to use clang instead of g++? 13:10:29 but it took a while. I'm not sure I'll want to indulge in that ever again. 13:10:36 <|amethyst> SamB: people are surprised by the terminal, much less installing a compiler 13:10:45 mm, I should just do this. get it into macports and then the brew folks will steal it and you're covered on mac :p 13:10:57 |amethyst: I'm sort of leaning towards hoping that the unsavvy ones have abandoned their PPC systems 13:11:26 I mean, finding software for them nowadays is not easy 13:11:29 <|amethyst> SamB: I think people who still use PPC macs do so because they're poor, not because they're computer whizzes 13:11:48 there isn't much new software for ppc macs (or heck, even 32-bit x86 macs) nowadays 13:11:51 |amethyst: I was hoping those people had wised up enough to install Debian or something 13:12:02 Judging by the Tavern Technical support center, the vast majority of Mac users would not be able or willing to compile Crawl. I put up an text walkthough on compiling Crawl, but I think I've gotten maybe one or two people to actually try it out of like 10 people who've mentioned it. 13:12:09 pretty sure the macport would work on ppc, since I'm using macports gcc 4.8 and that will build on them 13:12:52 reaverb: are you seeing warnings about a redeclaration of strlcpy? 13:12:54 <|amethyst> SamB: I think you overestimate the computer-savviness of the average computer user in general :) 13:13:27 bh: The Mac builds been so unstable I completely ignore warnings at this point, let me check. 13:13:30 <|amethyst> SamB: hell, plenty of *Linux* users find Debian too hard :) 13:13:39 |amethyst: I think you overestimate the extent to which PPC Macs are usable anymore 13:13:56 I mean, if you already have all the software you need, you're in good shape 13:13:56 unstable. hm. 13:14:03 otherwise good luck 13:14:11 -!- jday_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:14:21 SamB, um 13:14:32 (unless you ARE savvy) 13:14:34 -!- nixor has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:14:36 it's very bloody slow 13:14:40 that's the main problem 13:14:43 Speaking of the camelCase, I've been thinking about changing the JavaScript coding style. Currently it imitates the C++ style we use, but I feel that doesn't fit JS that well. 13:14:46 it's slower than a pentium 4 13:14:55 unless it's a G5 13:15:38 the one I've played with is a G5 13:16:02 the G5 is still very slow by modern standards 13:16:03 whoa. Getting crosstraining to work in the new way took like 10 lines of code 13:16:09 bh: This might take a minute, I tried to get the makefile to support a hiearchy of source files (i.e, but all the mon-foo.cc files into a monster folder) so it needs to compile so submodules I think? talks about SDL. 13:16:09 nice! 13:16:10 Mainly braces on a different line is problematic, due to the use nested functions etc. Plus there are some edge cases where they are actually harmful. 13:16:48 I guess no-one else really touches that code, but if someone has comments anyway... :P 13:16:48 There are probably 1000 corner cases that I got wrong 13:17:04 bh: Yes, it warns about "warning: redundant redeclaration of ‘size_t strlcpy(char*, const char*, size_t)’ in same scope". On about half the objects compiling. 13:17:05 -!- Daekdroom_ has quit [Client Quit] 13:17:22 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:17:38 reaverb: you're trying to rearrange the sources and port it at once? 13:18:14 SamB: A)Crawl currently compiles on mac B) I failed misreably at rearranging it. 13:18:23 ah, okay 13:18:26 but anyway, the scrollback suggests that some people thought that macs don't support C++11? 13:18:30 the question was only about powerpc macs 13:18:43 powerpc macs can has C++11 too 13:18:53 yes, albeit less straightforward 13:19:02 <|amethyst> Zaba: It is that we don't currently know how to build universal binaries that support old macs, other than using an old version of gcc 13:19:08 or at least someone would have to build it separately 13:19:43 Zaba: So individual compilation would still work w/C++11? Nice. 13:19:57 reaverb, the problem is only with old toolchains 13:20:08 |amethyst: yeah, because the script to compile twice and glue it together is part of Apple's old GCC :-( 13:20:31 or actually I think it can do it 4x if you want to run on both arches AND both bitnesses 13:20:59 the GPLv3 really seems to scare Apple 13:21:33 it doesn't really scare them, they just want to have nothing to do with it :P 13:22:31 Zaba: Yeah, I have Xcode 3.2.6 because I'm using an old mac, so I guess I wouldn't be able to compile C++11 with that. Might be able to update to Mavericks though. 13:23:08 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:23:11 Zaba: that's because it scares them 13:23:31 SamB, scaring would imply that there's fear involved, but there's only cold lawyer scheming 13:23:37 -!- crawlerine has quit [Client Quit] 13:23:57 every GPL'd thing they use, they upgraded until JUST before it switched to GPLv3 and then stopped 13:24:07 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.14-a0-3160-gb1a6962 (34) 13:24:54 yes, that's because the license gets in their way, not because of fear :P 13:25:20 but well 13:26:32 well, shit. now that I've updated to the latest master, the game doesn't build at all. 13:26:47 I guess the only way to have a clean and sane build system is to only support modern macs (like, only x86_64, and whichever is the least recent os x version still supported by modern toolchains) 13:26:48 well, 'make' runs, but the game crashes on startup. 13:26:58 -!- tksquared_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:28 PleasingFungus, crashes how? 13:27:51 What's the difference between @People and +People? 13:28:01 Bcadren, @ is op, + is voice 13:28:02 PleasingFungus: I'm at 428849b and don't have the problem, let me test on latest. 13:28:29 Running it from the command-line, it just dies. Hangs forever when I try to run it from explorer. 13:28:36 Testing to see if it's something with my saves. 13:29:12 PleasingFungus: I've had Saves do that in the past, particular with that one command to place Portals which never works. 13:29:19 actually, it hangs half of the time when I run it from the command-line, too, but it did that before I updated. 13:30:13 -!- ebarrett has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:30:33 doesn't seem to be an issue with the saves. deleting them fixed nothing. 13:31:14 I have both an old and a modern mac here, I could check stuff 13:31:25 but I was planning to go sleep right about now 13:31:34 sleep is probably more important. 13:31:43 Op? Voice? I know they are staff ranks, but. 13:32:06 http://www.freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml see user modes 13:32:14 Bcadren, voice means one can speak when the channel is +m(oderated). Here, it's used to mark people who have commit access. 13:32:30 Bcadren, ops can set channel modes and kick people 13:32:35 actually those are channel modes 13:33:12 yes (but they only show up as such in mode change commands, because IRC is a well-designed and a consistent protocol. not particulary.) 13:34:48 -!- ebarrett has quit [Client Quit] 13:35:13 -!- Nexos is now known as fdel 13:37:16 -!- Chousuke_ is now known as Chousuke 13:37:27 Yes, master is working fine on my mac. 13:40:22 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:58 yeah I just checked out a fresh repo 13:41:01 will try building that 13:45:17 The person using the VC++ project wasn't me, by the way 13:45:22 I never even got it to work properly 13:45:35 mumra was the one who last did updating on it 13:47:30 Another channel I'm on has @ and % but no + 13:48:06 voice isn't widely used 13:48:11 + doesn't really do anything 13:48:19 because no one actually uses the relevant channel mode 13:48:40 except in moderated channels for e.g. public meetings, where the current speaker is given voice 13:49:11 I've never actually seen that but I trust you that it has at some point occurred 13:50:03 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:51:12 is rax a person or a bot? [just asking because been on a long time and haven't seen him speak] 13:51:28 her, and a person. just not around much 13:51:36 <|amethyst> e 13:51:36 |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 13:51:59 <|amethyst> johnstein: you mean for release? 13:52:09 <|amethyst> johnstein: re updating to a new version 13:53:19 How do people who aren't around much still have their nicks show up? Are there computers always on or do they use some external hosting thing? 13:53:26 s/there/their/ 13:53:52 reaverb: yes. 13:54:00 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:54:12 <|amethyst> johnstein: let's see: mkdir a new directory under /dgldir/inprogress and chown it. Also dirs for -sprint -tut and -zotdef (see the crawl-13* dirs for example) 13:54:32 Either they're using a bouncer (|amethyst apparently posts through the cszo server) or they do indeed leave their PC on. 13:54:43 Gnoll Shamans can't petrify anymore :( 13:55:35 <|amethyst> johnstein: make new menus in dgamelaunch-config/chroot/menus/ by copying the 0.13 menus 13:56:38 <|amethyst> johnstein: add something about that to the main_user and main_admin menus 13:56:51 Well, more people probably just run the client on a server instead of using a bouncer. And then just connect with ssh to see the client. 13:56:57 <|amethyst> johnstein: copy the 0.13 entries in dgamelaunch.conf and config.py and update the numbers; also copy the menu stuff in 0.14 13:57:01 <|amethyst> Yeah, that's what I do 13:57:25 <|amethyst> johnstein: err, s/in 0.14/for 0.14 in dgamelaunch.conf/ 13:57:38 <|amethyst> johnstein: update utils/trigger-rebuild.pl 13:57:48 <|amethyst> johnstein: and change your daily update cronjobs 13:57:56 <|amethyst> johnstein: I think that's everything 13:58:28 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 13:58:32 weepon (L20 FeMo) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 712: Exit exit_wizlab[157] didn't get generated. (WizLab) 13:59:15 <|amethyst> Bcadren: More specifically, r a x is the owner/admin of CAO 13:59:35 <|amethyst> Bcadren: maybe the ##crawl founder too? That was before my time 14:00:32 |amethyst: ##crawl sprung into being by grace of xom 14:01:29 -!- Adventuro has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:01:41 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:02:19 |amethyst: Ty. that's basically what I was assuming. just didn't know if there were any oddball steps to be performed on a new version update 14:02:23 -!- AreBrandon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:38 according to chanserv; it was founded by raxvulpine on sep 27 2005 14:03:08 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:03:44 and reaverb: I run a ZNC bouncer on my VPS. super handy when my primary IRC-ing these days is via iPhone where I get logged out automatically after 10 minutes idle 14:04:35 Xom 14:04:43 * geekosaur clones a fresh crawl tree to play with making tiles work with macports libs 14:04:51 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04:55 johnstein: Nice. 14:05:04 Is Xom pronounced like Zom, rhyming wiht Tom? 14:05:13 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 14:05:17 pronunciation probably changes all the time... 14:05:33 blackcustard: Is ##crawl a public server or has ##crawl just never stoped having users. 14:05:42 What is the painting of the threeskulled plant-thing supposed to be? 14:05:53 <|amethyst> Bcadren: Kiku 14:06:33 <|amethyst> (title_psiweapon_kiku.png) 14:08:50 reaverb: i dunno. chanserv alone is enough to keep a channel protected isn't it? 14:09:05 registered channels stick around, yes 14:11:16 <|amethyst> Bcadren: here was the submission: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6829 14:12:01 where are skill points mapped to skill levels? 14:12:18 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:13:03 You should use this on the splash screen too haha: http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1374/84/1374847129970.png 14:14:14 Bcadren: yeah. I'm pretty sure Baconkid would be fine with that, but it doesn't really fit stylistically with the rest of the splash screens 14:14:21 <|amethyst> well 14:14:41 <|amethyst> I think coloring it would make it fine 14:14:50 bh: skill_exp_needed(), I believe 14:14:54 <|amethyst> not sure about the text 14:16:05 I'm not sure why "exp" is in the name of that function, actually 14:16:37 since afaik it doesn't directly have anything to do with experience 14:20:31 I just love that image...Chei is so...Chei 14:21:43 -!- Turgon has quit [Client Quit] 14:25:35 Does anybody know some ancient bug I can fix while I have some free time? 14:27:03 Which god would you consider the most basic/simplest? I'd say Vehu or Oka. 14:27:17 Bcadren: That's more of a ##crawl question. 14:29:45 One of the things I think is unique about crawl is that there are gods that transcend being of {foo} were foo is an attack type that is obviously and very simply helpful. The less obvious ones (which also tend to be the newer gods) are so much thematically better even if they aren't practically better. 14:31:14 03tenofswords02 07* 0.14-a0-3161-ge36c0c2: More monster tweaks 10(8 minutes ago, 3 files, 5+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e36c0c27f0d7 14:32:25 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 14:32:37 |amethyst: Is there actually any need for save compat for removing AT_SHOOT? The only place AT_ enums are persisted is ghost_demons, yes? And can any of them even get values this high? 14:32:43 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 14:33:36 Oh, wait, do vault-defined monsters use the same thing? 14:33:42 For statues and such 14:38:24 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:38:27 (The day monsters get vault-defined attacks is the day various vault designers' heads explode.) 14:38:42 Oh, so they CAN'T? 14:38:52 You cannot redefine the attacks of a monster, no. 14:39:05 So I guess it is safe to just delete AT_SHOOT, then? 14:39:20 Hmmm... unless Pan lords can get AT_RANDOM, I guess >.> 14:39:24 I have a few vault ideas, but I always get confused trying to start defining one (I only play tiles) 14:40:23 -!- Tedronai has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:40:30 Oh, huh. Are they always AT_HIT? 14:40:35 better to do do anything fancy with monsters in c++ anyway if you are going to do it at all, doing it in vault definitions just leads to trouble eventually 14:40:35 evilmike: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 14:40:49 unless its kept simple, or in something like a sprint map where there are no rules 14:40:58 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:41:16 Panlords are defined through their ghost structure. 14:41:24 Yes, I know 14:41:30 But looking at it, I think they may just always have AT_HIT 14:41:59 That sounds about right. 14:42:00 Speaking of panlords, apart from unnecessarily adding more code to crawl, I'd like to replace the panlord name generator with something comprehensible 14:42:00 I suppose I could be 'safe' and just use #ifdef tags around AT_SHOOT, just in CASE something persists enum values this high 14:42:04 Even though I think nothing does? 14:42:06 bh: nooooooooooooooo 14:42:19 bh: imo the pan lord names are an essential part of Official Crawl Lore 14:42:21 Grunt: can you even pretend to understand make_name? 14:42:35 evilmike: I'm fine with the names. The generator is simply batshit. 14:42:35 no one needs to understand it! it's magic, just let it do its thing 14:42:50 ??make_name 14:42:50 I don't have a page labeled make_name in my learndb. 14:42:52 aw 14:42:56 Well, if the generator works and the code doesn't need to be touched for any reason, it being a bit of a mess doesn't seem to be a problem 14:43:00 It can stay a black box :P 14:43:15 it's just... crawl-ish and since it's not actually gameplay related and seems to work, no one needs to touch it 14:43:17 The problem is with messy code that keeps causing actual issues 14:43:26 And keepings needing to be edited for various reasons 14:43:34 (Monster movement code, I'm looking at you >.>) 14:43:37 !send DracoOmega beams 14:43:38 Sending beams to DracoOmega. 14:43:45 we should at least rename it to make_panlord_and_jiyva_name :P 14:43:48 I'd take beam code any day of the week! 14:43:49 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 14:43:49 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Changing host] 14:43:49 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 14:43:56 At least it's all in the one place 14:44:44 doesn't it make scroll/merc names too? 14:44:54 Shopkeeper names? 14:44:55 -!- utrick has joined ##crawl-dev 14:45:05 probably. It's a cat-on-keyboard generator 14:45:37 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:53 gukilop 14:46:13 not enough repeated characters for cat on keyboard 14:47:13 Well it was something like wrrrrrhgukilop before I promptly deleted the boring part. 14:47:21 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:48:33 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:52:45 -!- 64MAAJO7E has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:32 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:54:37 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 14:57:02 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:57:15 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:59:13 -!- demiskeleton has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:06:41 -!- valtern has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:10 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:11 -!- jmbto has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 15:16:02 I could more easily mockup how a vault would look in tles as an image...than make a vault properly. hah 15:16:54 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.14-a0-3162-g5a92590: Fix some buggy pathing behavior for low intelligence creatures 10(56 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5a92590ec142 15:16:54 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.14-a0-3163-g0f74bc2: Remove misleadingly non-functional AT_SHOOT attacks 10(26 minutes ago, 4 files, 14+ 26-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0f74bc222cbb 15:18:50 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: I think you're right that save compat wouldn't be affected 15:19:02 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: AT_RANDOM is only used by chaos spawns AFAICT 15:19:13 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:20 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: also, the comment on AT_RANDOM is wrong :/ 15:19:26 Yeah, it is 15:19:30 Maybe I should have fixed it 15:20:01 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:26:00 -!- ac13 has quit [Client Quit] 15:27:05 03wheals02 07* 0.14-a0-3164-gff5eb93: Remove djinn. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 14-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ff5eb931cb49 15:30:01 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 15:34:54 DracroOmega: No reason you can't fix it anyway. It's just one more commit. : ) 15:36:39 (We're running out of commits though!!!...) 15:37:14 I think the major things left are clearing through the vaults backlog, the lair enemy tweaks, and the tiles we don't have yet? 15:37:32 I feel as though I'm missing something important. 15:37:39 -!- minmay has joined ##crawl-dev 15:38:31 Grunt: probably some new stuff needs balancing? 15:38:38 that's pretty important IMO 15:38:56 Most of that is contained in "lair enemy tweaks", though there are probably a few others that don't fit into both? 15:39:09 hrm. does skill_points only hold your progress toward the next level, rather than all of your allocated skill points forever? 15:39:21 "# of Books": "3&5:$450" ... that looks horrible doesn't it 15:40:10 Grunt: I was thinking of the poison changes (which I don't really know much about but sounded like they might need more work) 15:40:57 I've had some games since those changes and they still seem largely reasonable to me. 15:41:04 bh: I think it holds all your allocated skill points 15:41:31 oh, I see what I'm doing wrong. 15:41:44 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:41:58 bh: everything? 15:42:00 * Grunt flees in terror. 15:42:13 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:09 Grunt: zing. I was misinterpreting skill_exp_needed 15:43:54 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:44:25 -!- ttj__ has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:25 oh, I'd bee meaning to ask about invis behaviour, since my fix has probably created a not-ideal situation 15:45:28 yeah, skill_exp_needed returns the total number of skill points needed to get to level N from scratch 15:46:25 we currently have monster stealth rolls that are tiered so that 1) the monster's true position can be revealed by an invis indicator or 2) a second roll can pass resulting in a tile adjacent to the monster getting an indicator 15:46:34 elliptic: Do you have a proposal for the crosstraining discount? I'm thinking something like 0.1 15:46:46 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:47:12 I left this in place when fixing the invis display issue, but perhaps we shouldn't have 2 or we should only do 2 when the monster is sufficiently far away 15:47:45 since now the monster can be adjacent to the player and the player knows exactly where it is, but invis indicators from (2) show up at one tile away from the monster's position 15:48:00 bh: I think higher, maybe 0.2 15:48:42 bh: since currently crosstraining sort of works like 0.5 (in one direction only) if you raise both skills to the same level and have the same apt for each 15:49:02 0.2 might even be too small 15:49:14 hm 15:49:53 03tenofswords02 07* 0.14-a0-3165-ge0fae01: Scattered portal vault edits. 10(4 minutes ago, 7 files, 144+ 166-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e0fae01cd06e 15:54:37 -!- ttj_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57:23 -!- Ququman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:55 -!- _fred has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:59:14 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 16:05:01 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:05:28 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 16:05:48 I see that DracoOmega is working on enemy-related stuff, so perhaps he's building that up to lair enemy adjustments? 16:06:07 Yes, I have been working on various tweaks for a number of days now 16:06:16 -!- Napcat has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:07:48 Are the adjustments in a viewable branch? 16:07:57 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Houdoe] 16:09:13 No 16:09:55 They touch on a fair bunch of the new stuff, sometimes in small ways, but with a few larger changes 16:11:04 -!- Sky__ is now known as Sky____ 16:11:58 Sort of hoping I might be done by tomorrow, assuming no other big problems come up ^^; 16:12:51 Good luck with those big problems 16:12:55 -!- Fengor_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:14:05 DracoOmega: give us a few more mysterious words that will leave us hanging... 16:15:15 Oh, there's nothing that fun involved :P 16:16:03 bye bye fun 16:16:11 rip fun 16:16:17 To clarify, are you futzing with Lair at all, or just its branches? 16:16:18 Haha 16:16:37 Oh, it's almost all just adjustments to new stuff. So no, not Lair 16:16:50 any changes to op crushers? 16:16:53 Like, there are some siren changes, and spriggan monster changes, and stat adjustments to a number of new monsters 16:16:57 hmm 16:16:59 I haven't even looked at them at all yet, sorry ^^; 16:17:12 I have a thing I'm going to do for them, may or may not reach 0.14 (and it's cosmetic) 16:17:19 What? 16:17:24 animate the throw 16:17:32 (and beamify it to do so) 16:17:44 make a little explosion at where you land 16:17:47 heh 16:17:48 Heh 16:17:58 a cloud of dust? not a bad idea actually... 16:18:06 petrifying dust 16:18:11 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:18:20 af_petr + throw 16:18:37 hrm, is there an af_petr (or probably, was there ever one) 16:18:39 Maybe komodos should just be removed 16:19:33 hrm, we do have crocodiles already 16:19:39 spiny frog (08F) | Spd: 12 (swim: 60%) | HD: 7 | HP: 26-52 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Dam: 2608(poison:15-25) | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(28), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 409 | Sz: Medium | Int: reptile. 16:19:39 %??spiny frog 16:19:42 komodo dragon (04l) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 8 | HP: 30-58 | AC/EV: 7/8 | Dam: 3007(disease) | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(32), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 313 | Sz: Large | Int: reptile. 16:19:42 %??komodo dragon 16:19:46 crocodile (07t) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 5 | HP: 17-38 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 20 | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(20), 12drown | XP: 106 | Sz: Large | Int: reptile. 16:19:46 %??crocodile 16:20:14 that komodo mr 16:20:48 crocs used to be "giant lizards" i think, they were simply given a better name. they fill a role of a sort of hard hitting but not too nasty normal speed monster 16:21:24 not really meant to be special, just one of those "normal monsters" 16:21:59 How noticeable is 30 vs 26 damage when you have plate in lair? 16:22:19 Why is 26 the comparison point? They're not very similar to spiny frogs 16:22:33 spiny frogs hurt a lot more 16:22:47 baby alligator (02t) | Spd: 12 (swim: 60%) | HD: 7 | HP: 26-52 | AC/EV: 1/11 | Dam: 20 | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(28), 12drown | XP: 265 | Sz: small | Int: reptile. 16:22:47 %??baby alligator 16:23:01 Poor crocodiles. Weaker than baby alligators 16:23:03 i think these guys could be merged with crocs, if you want to do something to one of the t monsters 16:23:35 DracoOmega: Mostly I was wondering how komodos compare to spiny frogs for hurting the player 16:23:44 Well, spiny frogs are faster and that matters a lot 16:23:55 Poison aside (but that will also do additional damage on top, to a lot of people) 16:23:57 since their "main thing" is an annoyance 16:25:55 if I'm nuking crosstraining, do I need to preserve ct_skill_points? 16:27:38 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 16:28:50 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:30:01 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:08 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir 16:30:08 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 16:34:02 not sure about save compat, but ct_skill_points shouldn't be needed in the new system 16:34:31 the Ash reskill code is a lot simpler without crosstraining 16:34:37 I believe the only use for it currently is to make ashenzari skill transfer not be abusable with crosstraining 16:34:39 yes 16:34:42 %%git :/cross training 16:35:58 looking at ct_skill_points might be useful for save compat (I think can basically just subtract that off from skill_points and forget about it) 16:36:34 oh, hrm. That makes sense 16:37:48 so yeah, I think you can just nuke ct_skill_points and look at it once in tags.cc when loading old saves 16:40:58 -!- utrick has quit [Quit: Want to be different? Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 16:42:12 -!- kingbuddyboy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:43:06 OK. I think that does it 16:43:12 * bh kicks the bot 16:43:33 * Grunt kicks bh. 16:43:53 * bh explodes! Some of Grunt's food is contaminated with spores! 16:44:25 * PleasingFungus is confused 16:45:30 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 30.0a1/20140222030204]] 16:45:41 New branch created: xtrain (1 commit) 16:45:42 03bh02 07[xtrain] * 0.14-a0-2692-g6b3730a: Crosstraining Simplification 10(4 minutes ago, 7 files, 52+ 155-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6b3730aaf4c8 16:46:03 you live up to your god. 16:47:10 that sounds interesting bh 16:47:32 johnstein: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11258 16:47:56 thanks that was my next question 16:48:09 Fedhas clarification question. Since all Fedhas abilities are permasummons and their power is boosted by your invocations, does your skill affect them live or when they are summoned? (If I made a Oklob at 0 Invo and left it and my Invo had grown to 12 and it was still there is it more powerful or would only new things I make be more powerful?) 16:48:44 can we remove the summon cap and make summons just reduce your MP while the dudes are alive? 16:48:58 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:50:47 Grunt: A giant frog comes up the stairs. 16:50:58 this is on spider:1, next to the upstairs 16:52:01 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:52:51 !tell Grunt "A giant frog comes up the stairs." next to the stairs out of spider; that should be "down the stairs" probably 16:52:51 wheals: OK, I'll let grunt know. 16:53:31 wheals: doh 16:53:44 -!- buzzykin1 has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:55:15 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:55:39 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-3166-g76e8b85: Fix message for monsters coming down stairs (wheals). 10(74 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=76e8b85b074c 16:56:58 Why must Crawl be so fiddly with timing when it comes to monsters dying and not crashing, I ask :P 16:58:30 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Quit: Excess flood] 17:01:28 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:01:45 %git :/mark 17:01:45 07wheals02 * 0.14-a0-3155-g15be66f: Make all abyss teleports shift the Abyss (minmay). 10(21 hours ago, 18 files, 24+ 72-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=15be66f72648 17:01:58 %git HEAD^{/black mark} 17:01:58 07gammafunk02 * 0.14-a0-3110-g780002b: Fix a crash due to black mark. 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=780002bd2f37 17:02:10 another one 17:02:22 -!- gnum_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:03:04 I'd appreciate it if people took a look at [xtrain], I'm pretty sure no one will be happy with the skill menu 17:03:32 03tenofswords02 07* 0.14-a0-3167-gc8df72d: More scattered vault edits 10(5 minutes ago, 5 files, 39+ 42-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c8df72d439d8 17:03:34 Perhaps that branch is to [xtreme]... 17:03:34 s/to/too/ 17:04:02 gammafunk: more like [xterm] 17:06:34 bh: just checked it out and started a build 17:07:12 gammafunk: if we want to distinguish Ash/Oka enhancement from crosstraining we could alternate the skill names with blue and green characters :P 17:10:04 ERROR in 'skills2.cc' at line 577: ASSERT failed: lev of 28 out of range 0 (0) .. 27 + 1 (28) 17:10:11 I just set my fire skill to 5 in wiz mode 17:10:27 durr. How did I not trip that? 17:11:37 huh. unsigned math issue 17:12:13 yeah, if I just enable fire and create/kill cerebov, I get the same crash 17:12:25 when I get the xp, I mean 17:12:28 I'll have a fix for you in two seconds 17:12:35 gr. or longer since I build slowly 17:12:48 useing make -j ? 17:12:52 yeah 17:13:11 Processor: 1.86 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 17:13:11 ccache as well? :) 17:13:22 nope 17:13:30 would recommend ccache 17:13:52 --ccache? 17:14:05 no, you install it and prepent e.g. /usr/lib/ccache to your PATH 17:14:12 s/prepent/prepend/ 17:14:57 ah 17:15:02 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 17:22:30 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:25:14 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 17:27:55 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:27:55 -!- debo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:55 -!- debo_ is now known as debo 17:28:11 gammafunk: thanks for the ccache tip 17:28:39 np 17:29:10 03bh02 07[xtrain] * 0.14-a0-2693-gfd365f3: Fix skill menu crash 10(in the future, 2 files, 5+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fd365f35671a 17:29:34 -!- Psyknux has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:30:16 skills2.cc: In function ‘bool is_antitrained(skill_type)’: 17:30:16 skills2.cc:695:6: warning: no previous declaration for ‘bool is_antitrained(skill_type)’ [-Wmissing-declarations] bool is_antitrained(skill_type sk) 17:31:26 -!- ereinion has quit [] 17:31:48 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:31:57 just missing the declarations in skills2.h 17:32:44 bh: oh, those should both be static functions and begin with _ 17:32:56 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:35:04 -!- raskol` is now known as raskol 17:35:42 -!- bargaw has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:37:14 gammafunk: hrm. I thought I purged that 17:37:37 oh. I dropped it from the header 17:37:59 hrm, does it show anything regarding xtraining/antitraining in tiles? 17:38:13 probably not 17:38:15 in the skills menu 17:38:23 oh, but it does in console currently? 17:38:27 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 17:38:42 the skills are highlighted in blue or magenta, like Ash and Drain 17:44:00 -!- tsn has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:44:26 03bh02 07[xtrain] * 0.14-a0-2694-g9039b47: Remove dead code from skills 10(82 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 40-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9039b477c92a 17:44:56 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:45:33 bh: huh, I'm not seeing any highlting for anti-training for magic schools 17:45:36 in console either 17:45:51 hrmph 17:45:53 ah, it only does so if you have skill there 17:46:15 yeah 17:46:18 that's a bit problematic in that the user might turn on e.g. ice with fire 17:46:20 and see no highlight 17:46:23 it probably always should 17:46:34 just so they know that something's going on 17:47:44 -!- MakMorn has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:48:04 -!- appleKen is now known as bananaken 17:53:08 -!- stickyfingers has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:58:43 weepon (L20 FeMo) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 712: Exit exit_wizlab[157] didn't get generated. (WizLab) 17:58:58 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59:06 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 18:02:24 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 18:04:01 -!- Grujah has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:04:10 !crashlog weepon 18:04:11 4. weepon, XL20 FeMo, T:126009 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/weepon/crash-weepon-20140309-225840.txt 18:05:14 Your Traps skill lost 6 levels and is now at level 0! 18:05:15 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:16 nice 18:05:36 huh 18:05:37 and this is in 0.14 18:05:42 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 18:05:59 bh: not your branch, in case you though that :) 18:06:15 gammafunk: if my branch was already running on a server, I'd be impressed/surprised 18:07:18 hahah, yeah, I just realized that my pasting that will not very much context might be misconstrued... 18:07:54 bh doesn't want to drain your Traps skill to 0 everyone, for the record. 18:08:19 wait. traps? How the heck... 18:08:59 <|amethyst> Save compat 18:09:32 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 18:14:13 -!- Bamboomancer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:14:26 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:15:02 -!- stickyfingers has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:16:59 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19:23 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.14-a0-3167-gc8df72d (34) 18:20:43 -!- Quashie_ is now known as Quashie 18:23:17 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 18:29:23 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:01 -!- ac13 has quit [Quit: ac13] 18:31:13 -!- Eonwe1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:08 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:35:05 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:39 hmm 18:37:51 It seems that allies don't get experience for reaching kills 18:37:52 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:38:36 I'll need to test it a little more 18:40:46 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40:59 Never mind, allies are just weird 18:42:52 -!- utrick has joined ##crawl-dev 18:45:13 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:46:42 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 18:47:06 -!- MrRen is now known as Zilis 18:48:33 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:54:57 gammafunk: we should get a troll shaman unique 18:55:58 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:56:28 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:57:23 " Died AGAIN with two runes to something as weak as ice dragons... it looked like there was just one of them, but a second one showed up and I didn't have any rC, and they kept breathing at me over and over even when they were both running away after I burned a fear scroll..." 18:57:40 are enemies supposed to use breath attacks while fleeing? 18:58:07 sounds like it stopped fleeing? 18:58:16 <|amethyst> %git 0b9d51a0edee0b 18:58:16 07DracoOmega02 * 0.14-a0-1997-g0b9d51a: Prevent fleeing monsters from stopping to attack with ranged or reaching weapons 10(7 weeks ago, 1 file, 4+ 9-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0b9d51a0edee 18:58:33 <|amethyst> ah 18:58:48 <|amethyst> that only handles reaching and throwing 18:59:22 I thought it worked for spells also? 18:59:37 But some dragon breath weapons are in mon_special_ability and probably don't interact right 18:59:41 (Which includes ice dragons) 18:59:45 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: that particular commit only touches _handle_reaching and _handle_throw 18:59:57 Yes, but I think it ALREADY worked properly for spells? 19:00:03 <|amethyst> ah, that may be 19:00:40 PleasingFungus: what version was this from? 19:00:45 <|amethyst> The problem is, we can't just prevent monsters from using special abilities while fleeing 19:00:51 No, certainly not 19:01:00 This is more checks needing to be added all over the place -.- 19:01:39 Just like there's already checked for confusion in like 20 places in that function 19:01:41 Unfortunately 19:02:01 if it's in mon-act.cc, you know you're going to have a fun time fixing it 19:02:03 <|amethyst> though actually, it looks like *most* things in there shouldn't be done while fleeing 19:02:18 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:02:30 Probably a couple exceptions, at least 19:03:08 not sure if it's 0.13 or trunk. guy complaining is in the crawl thread. I'll ask. 19:03:13 *sa crawl thread 19:03:20 It's probably still true in trunk 19:04:34 |amethyst: Conveniently, at least a number of things that should still be done while fleeing belong to monsters that can never be afraid anyway :P 19:04:43 heh, bog body special ability: rot itself 19:05:08 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:05:47 I'm not sure what happened to this bug report but it hasn't been touched since 2/27: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8219 19:05:51 sharks can swim in fountains :P 19:06:27 it seems to be a sleepwalking-type-bug 19:06:31 So far things I see that probably shouldn't be blocked by fleeing: ugly thing color changing, slime creature merging?, sky beast invis flickering, turtle withdrawing 19:06:33 sharks in fountains is a "feature" yes 19:06:44 nobody knows whether it's really important or good or how intended it's ever been 19:06:47 they used to generate in fountains away from water even 19:06:49 And a couple other things that belong to things that happen to be undead/non-living 19:07:00 Which can't be afraid, so it doesn't matter 19:07:20 Sharks in fountains is hilarious, in my opinion :P 19:07:22 -!- tksquared_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:07:32 I haven't actually looked at the code but water monsters in fountains sounds like the sort of thing that has to have been specifically enabled in the code 19:08:13 Well, probably the code considers them to be 'water' in feat_is_water or something 19:08:22 they're "watery" 19:08:22 MarvinPA: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 19:08:30 !source feat_is_watery 19:08:30 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/terrain.cc;hb=HEAD#l369 19:08:46 Oh, there's feat_is_water and feat_is_watery (which includes fountains) 19:09:21 yeah, seems like removing said watery function and using feat_is_water is the answer, if there are no other weird side-effects of that 19:09:29 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:09:32 what else is watery that isn't water? 19:09:33 I guess feat_is_watery is probably also used for stuff like steam from casting fire spells 19:09:39 yes 19:09:42 i noticed that today 19:09:47 gammafunk: What, are you suggesting we should get rid of this? :P 19:10:06 so it is conceivable that sharks in fountains was an unintended consequence of having that, I suppose 19:10:07 and slowly fishing for items instead of picking them up normally as a djinn 19:10:18 "what a great feature" 19:10:22 <|amethyst> If we remove watery from fountains, we might as well turn them into floor 19:10:23 yes 19:10:37 <|amethyst> since that's the only difference now, isn't it? 19:10:43 Well, they're decorative 19:10:49 <|amethyst> You can do that with a floor tile 19:10:54 +1 for removing fountains 19:10:55 And are used in vaults for this purpose 19:11:22 Yeah, for a pure decoration, you could just have a fancy floor tile 19:11:33 <|amethyst> can floor cells use feature tiles? 19:11:33 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 19:11:36 What about those poor console players? :P 19:11:41 <|amethyst> since I guess you'd want both a feature tile and a floor tile 19:11:55 what're console players? :P 19:12:02 DracoOmega: I'm a console player, and we kind of like not having extra information :) 19:12:03 DracoOmega: console players already have to live with elf walls 19:12:09 no need for more decoration 19:12:21 -!- debo has quit [Quit: debo] 19:12:21 Yeah, us console players need fancy floor fountains too! :) 19:12:46 allow redefining floor glyph, obviously 19:12:49 -!- pelotron_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:12:49 <|amethyst> or perhaps one feature type for "passable decorative element" 19:13:09 do dry fountains still exist 19:13:13 I remember when I first saw Elf in console, back when tiles only had all the walls grey 19:13:18 Actually I do like being able to make steam from fountains. 19:13:20 And I was like "Wow, this is so nice and colorful!" 19:13:34 I guess it's just the problem of players seeing said element and getting confused by being unable to interact with it 19:13:36 "Why don't we have that?" 19:13:46 it is presumably possible to prevent monsters from going in fountains and keep the steam 19:13:49 if you dig the walls in ice cave, it should leave shallow water. 19:13:49 DracoOmega: have you seen disco pan? 19:14:01 if someone wanted to sort through all the feat_is_watery/feat_is_water usage carefully 19:14:14 I once wrote a bug that turned every floor tile in the abyss into a Xom altar 19:14:28 Xom finds this hilarious! 19:14:35 that somehow sounds apropos 19:14:42 Well, I accidentally made doors turn all of the surrounded connected floor into doors when you opened them 19:14:53 DracoOmega: the first time I saw elf in console I was like "wow, this is awful, I can't tell what the walls are" - I've gotten used to it by now but I can't say I was impressed by it the first time 19:14:56 if (coord_def p.god = GOD_XOM) 19:14:57 Which you could never close again, since the door was the size of the floor and you couldn't not stand in it 19:15:00 DracoOmega, god of door corruption 19:15:25 DracoOmega: what if you used digging 19:15:35 I, uh... never thought about it at the time 19:15:42 I don't even remember how it happened 19:15:47 Something to do with door sealing, I think 19:16:05 it was when you were implementing dooroklohe 19:16:08 Hahaha 19:16:33 khufu surrounds himself with a tomb of doors? 19:16:56 tomb of doorvault 19:17:12 it would keep out ordinary dragons for sure! 19:17:18 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:17:41 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 19:17:59 sharks should definitely be allowed in fountains 19:18:01 that's a feature 19:18:37 unique shark that can jump to any fountain on a level 19:18:42 yesssss 19:18:55 regenerates like Boris 19:19:15 gammafunk: You could call it Fonzie 19:19:43 bh: If I had artistic skills I would make a splash screen of a felid jump-attacking over a shark 19:19:53 (holding a wand) 19:20:04 gammafunk: Your genius is underappreciated. 19:20:26 I'm trying to remember the old Saturday morning cartoon with the talking shark 19:21:01 we have a name for 0.14 19:21:10 "crawl development finally jump the shark" 19:21:25 everyone knows that happened in 0.2 at the latest 19:21:39 nameing this release, given the size of the changelog, is a challenge 19:21:48 "We give up" 19:21:51 haha 19:21:53 'Lava Orcs Still Aren't In This One' 19:22:07 'Djinn: Turns Out They Don't Work' 19:22:25 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22:44 "Djinni wish for Lava Orcs to exist" 19:22:48 "0.14: Pearls Before Swine" 19:22:58 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 19:23:01 so I was talking with nrook about an idea for a new portal vault 19:23:05 since everyone loves portal vaults 19:23:20 * tenofswords coughs 19:23:25 :) 19:23:39 So when are we getting a quad damage portal vault 19:23:45 inquiring minds want to know 19:23:51 quake vault, basically? 19:23:56 michael bay vault 19:24:13 it's called thunderdome 19:24:17 sheep perm_ench:inner_flame 19:24:18 vault of explosions 19:24:20 yess 19:24:29 and one with sticky flame 19:24:31 to start them off 19:24:34 oh, I'm reminded of that really weird kobold sprint... 19:25:00 paralysing with fear = perm_ench:paralyzed 19:25:12 with the ledas slugs and the kraken in growing deep water with the player in a sealed room 19:25:28 Tucker's? 19:26:00 in so many other (and much easier to work with) contexts it's acceptable to close rooms, sigh 19:26:01 !bug 7805 19:26:02 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7805 19:26:17 bug is a good name for an interface for submissions 19:26:32 (note: i'm not whales) 19:26:39 wheals: haha 19:26:53 someone did ask that in the past i believe 19:26:57 alucard 19:27:12 tenofswords: would love to see your comments on that submission... 19:27:59 -!- home_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:28:34 -!- Sky____ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:28:44 if I started writing up a response to it I wouldn't have time to fit anything else into 0.14 19:29:13 settles for "....why" 19:29:39 of course not, that would serve as a terrible example for future submissions 19:30:19 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:31:13 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:32:09 wow there are a lot of open vaults issues 19:34:26 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 19:34:59 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:35:32 Bcadren: I am very much a person but my interests have moved away from crawl --- I still do password updates for people and keep CAO running, although other people do most of the hard work :) 19:35:42 -!- home has quit [Changing host] 19:37:03 rax gave up full time crawling for grad school :) 19:37:51 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:00 well, with minor to few edits, I could easily, say, pass through 8195, 8110, and 8099 in like 30 minutes 19:38:21 that explains why ey're never around... 19:38:49 I actually dropped out of grad school, and have been having other crazy adventures, but details are offtopic :P 19:39:30 -!- home has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:34 oh oops, didn't even notice you 19:39:37 -!- buzzykins has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:40:00 oh. that's why people type "r a x" instead of "rax", to avoid summoning rax unnecessarily 19:40:04 derp 19:40:31 yeh. in some channels it's also done by replacing the first vowel with * (but in other channels that just confuses people) 19:42:22 tenofswords: what do you think makes a good unique? 19:43:17 odd question 19:45:10 I think the idea that most of them are unrewarding is silly, because plenty of fights in crawl are unrewarding by any real margin 19:45:56 uniques tend to be far more dangerous than average enemies, though 19:45:58 -!- Watball has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:46:01 -!- Watball_ is now known as Watball 19:46:22 the same thing can apply to many minivaults and there is no pressure to make all of those extremely rewarding 19:46:49 -!- herself has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:47:03 unrelated question: does anyone know where character base stats are set? (working on my frogman race) 19:47:34 uh... ng-init maybe? 19:47:45 nope 19:48:18 !function _species_stat_init 19:48:19 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc;hb=HEAD#l45 19:48:22 there 19:48:31 ah, perfect. Thanks! 19:48:59 update on the ice dragon thing from earlier: someone checked the guy's morgue, & one of the dragons had stopped fleeing before continuing to breathe him to death. 19:49:55 http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Jazzimus/morgue-Jazzimus-20140309-231047.txt this guy 19:51:22 huh. "ghouls are supposed to be a really hard race"? 19:53:55 not afaik 19:54:10 ghouls are probably pretty close to middle of the pack 19:54:32 was reading the comments in the function gammafunk linked 19:54:46 ah, heh 19:54:49 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:54:56 well, that comment is probably 6 years old 19:55:02 yeah probably 19:55:06 maybe they were supposed to be really hard at the time! 19:55:08 I like how they also claim mummies' stats are really low 19:55:10 I think I remember reading that comment too thought it was really odd 19:55:13 whereas they're actually 19:55:16 slightly above human 19:55:27 yeah, mummy starting stats were buffed at some point after that comment 19:56:03 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:56:25 also wanderer stats, I think 19:56:42 -!- whig has quit [] 19:56:53 %git bf6576bdb 19:56:53 07kilobyte02 * 0.6.0-a1-2543-gbf6576b: Mummy reform 1/3: the goodies. 10(4 years, 2 months ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bf6576bdb2e4 19:57:40 so they originally had sum 19, just one higher than Gh 19:58:46 that commit says they originally had sum 13 19:58:52 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 19:59:34 mummies used to be even worse than they already are? 19:59:36 things were renormalized at some point 19:59:52 there was an extra +2 to each stat that was somewhere else in that function at the time 19:59:56 so it was really 19 19:59:59 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:00:20 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:00:22 ahh 20:00:23 Lightli: well, that change went along with nerfs to scumming levels forever 20:00:33 oh 20:00:36 !lg * max=turn won 20:00:37 16768. Stabwound the Farming Skullcrusher (L27 MuSu of Nemelex Xobeh), escaped with the Orb and 111 runes on 2008-03-09 22:42:21, with 9425283 points after 92568259 turns and 5d+8:15:16. 20:00:45 stuff like that game was possible with old mummy 20:00:55 yeah, mummies can't really 20:01:07 *can't really be abused anymore 20:01:16 %git :/MuSu 20:01:17 07SamB02 * 0.13-a0-2049-g4b63c23: MuSu be hard now (Lightli) 10(9 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4b63c23585b0 20:01:33 !lg * max=turn recent 20:01:35 798345. Sky the Farming Archmage (L27 SpWz of Makhleb), mangled by an Ice Fiend (kmap: evilmike_mini_pan_3x3) in Pandemonium on 2013-06-06 08:13:52, with 1898806 points after 2083303 turns and 22:22:30. 20:02:19 fr: buff mummies slightly 20:02:28 fr: remove mummies 20:02:51 good lord 5 day playtime 20:03:04 PleasingFungus: This would also be fine 20:03:15 -!- ereinion has quit [] 20:03:23 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:04:10 anyway. later 20:04:14 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 30.0a1/20140222030204]] 20:04:30 !apt mu 20:04:31 Mu: Fighting: 0, Short: -2, Long: -2, Axes: -2, Maces: -2, Polearms: -2, Staves: -2, Slings: -2, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: -2*, Armour: -2, Dodge: -2, Stealth: -1, Shields: -2, UC: -2*, Splcast: -1, Conj: -2, Hexes: -1, Charms: -2, Summ: -2, Nec: 0, Tloc: -2, Tmut: -2, Fire: -2, Ice: -2, Air: -2, Earth: -2, Poison: -2, Inv: -1*, Evo: -1, Exp: -1, HP: 0, MP: 0 20:04:32 !apt troll 20:04:33 Tr: Fighting: -2*, Short: -2, Long: -2, Axes: -2, Maces: -1, Polearms: -2, Staves: -2, Slings: -4*, Bows: -4*, Xbows: -4*, Throw: -1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -2, Stealth: -4*, Shields: -2, UC: 0, Splcast: -5*, Conj: -3*, Hexes: -4*, Charms: -4*, Summ: -3*, Nec: -2, Tloc: -3*, Tmut: -3, Fire: -3*, Ice: -3, Air: -4*, Earth: -1, Poison: -3*, Inv: -1*, Evo: -2*, Exp: -1, HP: 3!, MP: -2* 20:05:06 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [] 20:05:07 -!- home has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:28 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:05:55 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 20:07:55 Where does that "Farming" come from in the title? 20:08:01 ??farming 20:08:02 farming[1/1]: "Farming" or "Farmer" is added to the titles of games lasting longer than 200,000 turns by the IRC bots. 20:08:39 lg . max=turns x=turns 20:08:48 !lg . max=turns x=turns 20:08:49 218. [turn=168711] RBrandon the Petrodigitator (L27 DDEE of Elyvilon), escaped with the Orb and 11 runes on 2014-01-18 17:25:33, with 6067138 points after 168711 turns and 20:51:59. 20:11:31 -!- Ququman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:13:58 -!- Zermako has quit [Quit: good night and good luck to all!] 20:14:03 !lg . max=turns won 20:14:05 9. bh the Farming Metallomancer (L27 GrEE of Zin), escaped with the Orb and 5 runes on 2013-07-23 01:34:38, with 1858087 points after 204969 turns and 19:50:01. 20:14:10 !lg * max=turns won 20:14:11 16768. Stabwound the Farming Skullcrusher (L27 MuSu of Nemelex Xobeh), escaped with the Orb and 111 runes on 2008-03-09 22:42:21, with 9425283 points after 92568259 turns and 5d+8:15:16. 20:14:22 !lg * max=turns won crace!=mu 20:14:23 16273. Sky the Farming Archmage (L27 HEWz of Fedhas), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2013-07-02 00:25:28, with 3293226 points after 1263620 turns and 1d+3:29:43. 20:15:07 !lg apocalypserobin 20:15:08 11. apocalypserobin the Farming Insei (L3 VpMo), quit the game in the Temple (circular_temple_6) on 2011-10-25 16:08:51, with 67 points after 199999999 turns and 1d+12:40:50. 20:17:37 ??chain of chaos 20:17:38 I don't have a page labeled chain_of_chaos in my learndb. 20:18:17 Is that an actual spell? 20:19:09 wasn't it a chaos chain lightning 20:19:49 briefly was in a branch, was turned into a xom effect 20:21:38 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:38 -!- ZRN_ is now known as ZRN 20:26:05 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:27:45 -!- Flowers has quit [Client Quit] 20:29:35 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 20:30:13 -!- Grujah has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:30:33 -!- Pisano has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:34 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:32:43 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:32:49 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:32:55 -!- ac13 has quit [Client Quit] 20:34:09 -!- racial_dagger has quit [Client Quit] 20:43:33 -!- Watball has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:43:58 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:48:10 ??chaotic mirror 20:48:10 chaotic mirror[1/1]: A hex or charm from {chaos champion}s. Needs line-of-fire to a target, and to pass a flat 40% success rate, to apply a status to both the caster and the target. There are equal weights for slow, haste, might, berserk, paralysis, confusion, disintegration, petrify, agility, blink, sleep, and vulnerability (-MR), and an extra-low chance for ensnare. 20:48:27 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 20:48:41 Hey devs, is monster "type" usually species or genus? 20:48:48 neither 20:49:06 it's the main type, i believe 20:49:09 so very crawl-source... 20:49:51 so, MONS_CENTAUR_WARRIOR for centaur warriors 20:49:52 hmm. Where is main type defined? 20:49:59 mon-data.h 20:50:02 ah -- that's species, I believe 20:50:17 no, centaur warriors have species MONS_CENTAUR 20:50:26 -!- broilor has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 20:50:34 Oh, I see what you mean 20:50:46 so genus > species > type? 20:50:56 basically, i believe 20:51:06 nobody's corrected me so i guess i might be right 20:51:33 haha, thanks 20:53:29 -!- qoon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:10 -!- Psyknux has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:04:21 <|amethyst> yes, that is right 21:05:37 -!- BirdoPrey has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05:39 <|amethyst> an example of something where all three is different: deep troll shamans have type MONS_DEEP_TROLL_SHAMAN, species MONS_DEEP_TROLL, and genus MONS_TROLL 21:07:20 <|amethyst> uniques are often examples of that as well (MONS_ANTAEUS < 21:07:32 <|amethyst> MONS_ANTAEUS <: MONS_TITAN <: MONS_GIANT 21:08:58 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:59 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 21:11:23 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:12:13 |amethyst: Didn't you say you were disabling the summoning_adjustments branch? 21:12:26 I noticed someone playing it again earlier today 21:15:17 uh 21:15:20 are chimera zombies supposed to generate 21:16:24 thanks, |amethyst 21:18:05 minmay: I doubt they even have any working attacks, so I imagine not 21:18:53 ...no signs of the dpeg? 21:21:14 I have an idea what if the cloak of darkness decreased LOS by 1 21:21:32 So were all rod invocables changed so you never can select spell? 21:21:45 does anyone recall the commit that changed shop prices? I can't find it 21:22:04 while loop typo in 428849b0 "Make the monster throw ability use a ray path" by floatingatoll 21:22:04 Bcadren: Yes, all rods have only one spell in trunk 21:23:12 am I right in guessing that removing multi-spell rods was a design goal 21:23:45 -!- Lasty has left ##crawl-dev 21:27:50 -!- eoc has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:29:21 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 21:29:47 %git HEAD^^{/[Ss]hop}^^{/[Ss]hop} 21:29:47 07DracoOmega02 * 0.14-a0-3026-g7f644f8: Rearrange the shop screen a bit 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7f644f8eaef6 21:29:51 that one? 21:29:59 -!- ac13 has quit [Quit: ac13] 21:30:03 or do you mean actual prices and not their display? 21:30:35 gammafunk: 8253 may be of interest to your throw rays work 21:31:08 floatingatoll: yes, going to push the fix, but it actually (thankfully) didn't affect anything 21:31:15 I thought minmay did something that actually changed shop prices 21:31:17 cool! 21:31:22 * floatingatoll relurk 21:31:23 thanks for catching it; no compile warning from gcc on linux, which is why it was missed 21:33:46 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:33:46 %git 600e0b5 21:33:47 07Grunt02 * 0.14-a0-2872-g600e0b5: minmay's new list of item values. 10(3 weeks ago, 1 file, 141+ 289-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=600e0b529ee4 21:33:58 ...moo? 21:33:58 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:34:20 !sent Grunt Asterion 21:34:24 !send Grunt Asterion 21:34:25 Sending Asterion to Grunt. 21:34:34 buppy? 21:36:08 -!- poopfist42 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:36 !send gammafunk the elite marksnaga squad 21:36:37 Sending the elite marksnaga squad to gammafunk. 21:36:49 !killratio Asterion . 21:36:51 Asterion wins 0.0% of battles against Grunt. 21:37:01 hehe 21:37:05 didn't realize one could do that 21:37:08 !killratio Vashnia gammafunk 21:37:09 !killratio Vashnia . 21:37:09 No battles for Vashnia and gammafunk. 21:37:11 No battles for Vashnia and gammafunk. 21:37:11 rip 21:37:29 was hoping that would say 0% instead of no battles.... 21:37:31 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 21:37:50 !killratio Vashnia . 21:37:52 Vashnia wins 0.0% of battles against Grunt. 21:38:00 Vashnia has put up some good fights. :) 21:38:00 !lg * ikiller=~crusher 21:38:01 1. GuraKKa the Bewitcher (L16 VpEn of Dithmenos), thrown by an octopode crusher on Depths:1 (kennysheep_water_balloons) on 2014-03-07 19:45:52, with 111674 points after 40947 turns and 4:43:20. 21:38:08 o_O 21:38:10 Yeah, she's no pushover 21:38:47 -!- tgcid has joined ##crawl-dev 21:38:49 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 21:38:52 geekosaur: that's it thanks! 21:38:53 !seen dracoomega 21:38:54 I last saw DracoOmega at Mon Mar 10 02:18:05 2014 UTC (20m 48s ago) saying 'minmay: I doubt they even have any working attacks, so I imagine not' on ##crawl-dev. 21:38:58 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:20 DracoOmega: did you deterministic poison increase the total poison damage? 21:39:30 * Bcadren summons dpeg! 21:39:41 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 21:39:43 dpeg is probably asleep! It's about 4AM where he is. 21:39:48 Bcadren: it's 3:40 in the morning in Germany. 21:40:00 Nothing appears to have answered Bcadren's call. 21:40:12 Bcadren is cast into the abyss!! 21:40:19 !abyss Bcarden 21:40:20 Lightli casts a spell. Bcarden is devoured by a tear in reality! 21:40:25 which is for the best; I imagine sleep fiends are nasty 21:40:26 -!- eoc has joined ##crawl-dev 21:40:35 fr: sleep fiends 21:40:53 Grunt: can we branch yet? :) 21:40:59 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:41:07 No! 21:41:15 There are still important things to be done. 21:41:19 bh: you have to fix Tiles/Webtiles in the xtrain branch, first :p 21:41:24 branch what? 21:41:34 Vaults backlog, enemy rebalancing, those last few tiles... 21:41:49 oh 21:42:06 bh: are you going to remove anti-training, or still haven't decided? 21:42:23 gammafunk: I'm going to leave it in. That's not a fight I care about 21:42:47 Was thinking how it'd be kind of weird to have 27 true skill fire but never more than e.g. 24 effective due to anti-training from ice 21:43:07 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Quit: ~Internet()] 21:43:35 sure. Players can still make mistakes 21:43:45 it would end all 27 skills! 21:44:11 I predict a mass exodus from crawl for the all-27-skills player base 21:44:24 -!- kekekela has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:01 So, 36 max gods? [26 levels, 10 numbers] 21:45:24 gammafunk: we could allow training beyond 27? 21:46:19 Just saying, because we are running low on letters now 21:46:26 bh: ...to 72? 21:46:33 gammafunk: don't care 21:46:44 Some people want 27 gods, because, well, 27. 21:46:45 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:46:50 -!- Bamboomancer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:46:50 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 21:47:03 fnord 21:47:06 haha, I'm not serious; they should stay capped at 27 imo. Truthfully I'd like to see anti-training go, but I haven't thought about balance 21:47:10 (I have seen the fnords) 21:47:25 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 21:49:05 gammafunk: if you trained air to 10 and earth to 27, your earth would be 26 and air would be -12 21:49:36 If you trained them both to just over 10, they'd both be 9 21:49:36 Grunt: if you stare to long into the fnord... 21:49:53 that seems bad 21:50:11 ...unless he just admitted to being one of the Illuminati 21:50:25 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 21:51:01 Wait, what? Are you saying that in this system it becomes possible to make it impossible to actually reach 27 in something, due to having at some point trained something in an opposing school? 21:51:17 you reach 27, but your effective skill is 24 21:51:27 That seems really bad 21:51:37 OK. Why? 21:51:43 What if you started with a bit of one school but then decide to switch to another a little later, and focus that? 21:51:53 Your upper limit should not be capped due to early skill choices 21:52:04 let me make you a spreadsheet. 21:52:08 Currently you get some penalties until you pass the other skill, but then none after that 21:52:29 Nothing should ever make it literally impossible to max out some skill 21:52:33 yes i agree with that 21:53:06 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:53:14 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:33 If you train a skill to 19, the highest effective level you could make the other skill is 26 21:53:36 Why is there a caP/ 21:53:48 I don't really like antitraining at all. I think it can implimented better in something like "if you have spells with opposing elements memorized, one or both is harder to cast" 21:53:49 because I haven't implemented training beyond 27. 21:54:04 I mean...it takes more XP at each level... 21:54:19 utrick: you're just doing the same thing in a different, more complex way 21:54:25 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 21:54:26 Well, whatever good or bad current antitraining does, this sounds like it causes more indelible penalties 21:54:31 This new alternative, I mean 21:54:34 could be an effective cap without there being a literal one 21:54:48 -!- odiv has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:00 And that sounds quite bad to me 21:55:01 DracoOmega: just add a trans-27 skill level that you can train to if you anti-trained 21:55:27 That's essentially what happened in the old system, but in a silly complicated way 21:55:28 Why is there some extremely long-lasting penalty at all, though? Currently there is not. 21:55:46 Yes, there is. 21:55:47 otherwise, it's hard to be symmetrical 21:55:50 Look at the math before you rage out 21:56:04 I'm not 'raging out' 21:56:07 I'm not even angry >.> 21:56:36 OK -- look at the math for anti-training 21:56:44 But I'm pretty sure no amount of math will show how having some ice can ever make 27 fire inaccessible 21:57:10 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:57:44 03gammafunk02 07* 0.14-a0-3168-gfdc5474: Remove an erroneous semicolon (floatingatoll). 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fdc5474dfa00 21:57:45 By what factor does a -4 apt change increase the skill cost? 21:58:00 It doubles it, I think? 21:58:10 doubles? holycrap. 21:59:00 2^(a/4) multiplicative factor where a is the apt iirc 21:59:19 ??aptitude 21:59:20 aptitude[1/4]: A number from -5 to 5 reflecting your character's ability with a specific skill; higher is better. An aptitude of n means the race takes 2^(-n/4) times as much exp to advance as an aptitude of 0. Press ?% in game to see the table of races and aptitudes. An aptitude of -1 or better is good, -2 is manageable even as your main skill, -3 is quite bad. 21:59:28 seems so 21:59:54 I'm really not concerned about making someone unable to max out a skill. 22:00:06 It's like complaining that someone can't increase their Int because they put a bunch of points into Str 22:00:20 well level ups are finite 22:00:21 -!- tenofswords has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:00:23 but skill training isnt 22:00:33 well, on the flip side of that, what does anti-training actually accomplish 22:00:45 I'm not sure it accomplishes very much (but I might be wrong) 22:01:03 bh: Yes, it's not like that at all. XP is theoretically infinite, and people can and do max multiple skills 22:01:08 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:14 People have even played games specifically to max everything 22:02:16 i dont know if antitraining actually has a purpose but it does make it harder to get some spells on certain characters. my character right now isnt really training air because all he would get is flight cast rate 22:02:45 DracoOmega: If you want anti-training and symmetry (I think this is the more important feature), we just add a trans-27 level 22:02:49 also makes it harder to get, say dmsl or silence with an earth character 22:02:55 or my favorite bolt of fire + fcloud 22:03:33 I think being able to level skills above 27 in certain cases so that they be 'actually' 27 sounds really odd to me 22:03:37 again im not sure if its actually contributing anything to make these harder to get 22:04:04 yeah, I think anti-training is just not producing much in terms of gameplay; crosstraining does 22:04:25 ??anti-training 22:04:25 anti-training ~ antitraining ~ elements[1/1]: Opposite elements (fire-ice, air-earth) antitrain, meaning that it takes twice as much xp to train one if the other is higher. 22:04:44 perhaps it might if we had weapon anti-training, but I don't think anyone really wants taht 22:04:47 yes, fire can just get buffs from the other two schools and it cant use ozos anyway because it burns it away when casting fire spells 22:04:47 *that 22:05:12 i like crosstraining because its definitely affected weapon choice more than a few times for me 22:05:25 Yes, I'm not certain that anticrosstraining produces effects that are ultimately good for the game or important to preserve 22:05:31 how would you impliment weapon anti-training? Swords antitrain whips? 22:05:42 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:49 Well, switching weapon skills is ALREADY bad, in isolation 22:05:52 i think weapon antitraining would be dumb 22:05:52 yes 22:05:53 fr: make the Action log on bones files break down by branch. Knowing the count I casted it after reaching a certain level in the dungeon isn't as interesting/useful as a branch by branch breakdown. 22:06:10 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 22:06:12 You only do it because the weapons you find strongly encourage it 22:06:13 elliptic things antitraining is more important than I do. My goal is to eliminate fiddly skill management that cross-training encourages 22:06:17 %s/things/thinks 22:06:30 I was under the impression that elliptic was more claiming that it actually did things 22:06:35 When the argument was that it did nothing 22:06:39 yes. 22:06:45 I sort of recall him also experessing ambivalence that what it does is good or bad 22:06:51 I could be wrong, but that's the impression I have 22:07:18 And I, at least, probably agree with that viewpoint. It does affect what a player does, but I'm not sure if it is an ultimately good thing or not 22:07:38 But either way, I definitely think it's bad to ever lock anyone out of maxing anything, regardless :P 22:07:39 Anti-training exists to prevent being able to use both ice and fire magic together, etc. The question is both mechanically and thematically why do we or do we not want to do this. 22:07:54 I've found that, when I've wanted to get iron shot, I've had to deal with the annoying situation where I trained air for various charms 22:07:56 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:08:10 Which charms? 22:08:19 Personally I'd say we should scratch anti-training for the opening up of avenues like having an Earth/Air/Conj spell, etc. 22:08:24 In most cases, dumping a bunch of skill into ice when you have fire is generally bad regardless of anti-training 22:08:29 Basil: the ones that use air.... 22:08:37 we can finally roll out that 9 Fire/Ice spell 22:08:43 dmsl? 22:08:49 Flight? 22:08:56 Basil: is this a pop quizz? I haven't studied! 22:09:30 antitraining is also done with species aptitudes 22:09:31 swiftness and rmsl? 22:09:51 I actually had a concept idea for an Earth/Air/Conj spell, which was basically a player version of Catoplepas breath. *shrug* 22:09:55 I....haste?! Is the answer haste?! 22:10:10 Answer is always haste 22:10:20 haha i was in the middle of typing that 22:10:41 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:53 I will say I also see thematically how dMsl, flight, etc. are the opposite of statue, stoneskin, etc. and perhaps using both at once could be too powerful... 22:11:45 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 22:11:58 It's easy to to use all of those air spells along with e.g. statue form already, since the air charms are dual school 22:12:12 -!- Bob__ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:12:17 Come to think of it...yea I've done that actually...derp. 22:12:21 esp for the rmsl/flight/swift, since they're so low level 22:13:34 I get the push to anti-training, but it either should REALLY be an either/or. (You can't memorize spells of both elements at the same time)...or it just shouldn't be there 22:13:49 -!- bh has quit [Quit: sleep] 22:15:53 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:16:18 -!- magicpoints has quit [Client Quit] 22:19:10 my game has only two downstairs on d:1 22:19:24 i'm fairly sure that disconnected layouts aren't supposed to be allowed there? 22:19:55 I know Dithmenos allows training Invo, but do any of the abilities actually use it? 22:22:22 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:22:22 -!- Krakhan|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:27:04 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:57 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 22:28:46 -!- ac13 has quit [Quit: ac13] 22:30:13 Bcadren: shadow form 22:30:36 -!- nixor1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:31:23 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:31:37 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:32:27 shadow step also uses it 22:33:51 -!- soundlust|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:34:02 -!- Psyknux has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:34:51 -!- TangoBravo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:35:50 wheals: you should not be getting disconnected D:1s, yes. 22:35:54 wheals: possibly a minivault? 22:36:05 it had a thing with a teletrap when i found the third stair 22:36:15 possibly a vault that needed to exclude d:1 22:36:30 -!- ac13 has quit [Quit: ac13] 22:37:38 -!- ac13 has quit [Client Quit] 22:37:43 -!- Quazifuji_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:39:30 DracoOmega: yeah, your impression about my views on antitraining is pretty accurate :) I hadn't thought about how getting antitrained skills all the way to 27 would be awkward with this new system (raising base above 27...), so that makes me like removing antitraining more 22:40:54 Grunt: did you get the thing i said 22:41:14 my internet died for a second there 22:42:25 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:43:25 !vault firewood 22:43:26 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/float.des;hb=HEAD#l94 22:44:03 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:46:05 elliptic: Yeah, I felt similarly that it's DEFINITELY not worth keeping if it involved clunky workarounds to preserve it 22:46:12 wheals: which thing? 22:46:36 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 27.0.1/20140212131424]] 22:47:03 the third d:1 stair was in a vault like firewood_loft, but without the staves and with just a teletrap 22:49:24 I had a d:1 spawn with a Xom vault...that could only be entered via random teleport and exited via teletrap 22:50:13 I think D:1 doesn't have any special code to avoid disconnected vaults 22:52:32 There are a couple of extra D:1 checks, actually. 22:55:34 Are there fewer weird entry vaults than there used to be...or are they just rarer? 22:56:47 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:58:01 -!- Pisano has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:41 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:59:54 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 23:00:56 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 23:01:14 !tell bh looks like there's a general agreement about it being ok to remove anti-training, if you want to go ahead and do that in [xtrain]; someone can always veto it later. 23:01:14 gammafunk: OK, I'll let bh know. 23:02:24 %git 23:02:24 07gammafunk02 * 0.14-a0-3168-gfdc5474: Remove an erroneous semicolon (floatingatoll). 10(73 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fdc5474dfa00 23:02:33 thirty-two 23:04:43 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: un] 23:05:40 It's probably going to be more than that. 23:06:15 * gammafunk says: "No! No!" gammafunk explodes in a cloud of diffs. 23:08:52 I think Oka, Sif and Vehu need revision. They are some of the oldest gods and moreover; they are some of the simplest in the game. Doesn't mean they aren't great, but there's less flavor and thematic depth than Fedhas, Chei, the good gods, etc. Vehu, I think, is even the only god with no invocations at all. 23:09:07 simple gods are not bad 23:09:49 there is probably not much (any?) unfilled design space for more simple gods that do not already exist, but oka/sif/veh being simple is a good thing, not a bad thing 23:10:32 I know I'm a big Sif fan, at least. 23:10:56 gammafunk the Summoner 23:11:10 gammafunk I am too, I've only won with Sif...having access to every spell in the game is a big deal. 23:11:10 -!- eoc has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:12:09 Bcadren: I think crate is right; we have some simple and good species, and we have some simple and good (in the gameplay sense) gods. 23:13:23 I don't know this, but I'm guessing the Good Gods + Oka, Trog, Sif and Vehu are the eldest gods? 23:16:32 The oldest gods (dating from Crawl 2.70, apparently) are Zin, TSO, Kiku, Yred, Xom, Vehumet, Okawaru, Makhleb, Sif, Nemelex, and Elyvilon. 23:16:39 A lof of those are very different now than they were then. 23:16:53 (See also Lugafu the Hairy, who was disabled then and eventually became Trog.) 23:16:54 wow, nem even 23:17:17 are any of those gods even similar to their original forms? 23:17:19 maybe sif? 23:17:33 i guess tso and makhleb maybe 23:17:44 so, gods were introduced in that version of crawl? 23:17:52 I... think so? 23:18:21 I don't have much to go on older than that because the source code is missing, but poking through the 2.6x binary I have doesn't turn up any of these names (except the ones that were panlords, of course). 23:18:30 ....2.70....twenty-seven 23:20:05 ...hm, I may be wrong; a lot of this code seems to be disabled in 2.7x. 23:20:07 gods were introduced in 2.70, then? 23:20:17 -!- st_ has quit [] 23:20:32 Good gods give a lot of help...for a lot of conduits, etc. Sif, Vehu, Makh...it's like literally impossible to go into penance without leaving. 23:21:12 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:58 -!- nonethousand has joined ##crawl-dev 23:24:06 -!- Bovinius has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:24:08 Yeah, apparently the release that first had them was 2.80. 23:25:07 Let's try to dig through this mess of code (2.82) and figure out what gods had what abilities... 23:25:58 Grunt some of the gods were Panlords? O_O; 23:26:21 -!- eoc has joined ##crawl-dev 23:28:11 My beef is just these gods are simple, not they are good/bad or even more/less powerful; just...most newer gods have real piety costs/conducts that can cause penance while worshipping whereas some of those older ones, the only piety cost other than that directly spent on abilities is...the 'wait' cost. (Kiku, Vehu, Makh, Sif) 23:28:18 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:28:46 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 23:29:10 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 23:29:34 -!- CKyle has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:35 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 23:32:04 %git :/lucy 23:32:06 Could not find commit :/lucy (git returned 128) 23:36:44 Bcadren: Why is it so important to have pennance? Loss of piety from the use of abilities is the better aspect of piety-losing gameplay, and pennance exists only to enforce conducts 23:36:46 -!- Fuzzwah has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:37:24 Ignoring the act of god abandonment, of course, which you can always do 23:37:24 it's actually really easy to get sif penance if you want to 23:38:03 Actually, it reminds me that sif's forget spell interface is a bit broken in 0.12; maybe not in trunk 23:38:25 if you cancel the use of it, it still has a piety/mp cost 23:38:45 -!- wat2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:52 (which would be one very easy way to get sif penance, of course) 23:39:12 well i was thinking the destroy books method :p 23:39:34 I think that the gods should all have some form of conducts. Good gods have the strictest, but on many levels that makes sense, but on the other hand a few gods just have none at all. 23:39:49 well i dont think all gods should have conducts 23:40:12 and im quite happy they dont have them 23:40:22 yeah, that bug is stil in trunk 23:40:36 gammafunk: does it cost a turn? 23:40:40 !learn add gammafunk todo: fix sif forget spell using mp/piety even if you cancel 23:40:40 gammafunk[12/12]: todo: fix sif forget spell using mp/piety even if you cancel 23:40:56 simmarine: yep 23:41:10 just pretend that the conduct for all the gods who don't have one is to stay above 1 hp except they don't care if you die a few times as a felid 23:41:15 I think (though I love Sif) one of the weirder things about her is all her best abilities are permanents. 23:42:10 crate: above 1hp? I don't want pennance if I got to 1hp! 23:42:44 oh 23:42:48 shoot wrong word!!! 23:43:00 i guess s/1/0 23:44:50 Ashenzari, Cheibriados, the Good Gods all have conducts/effects that radically change gameplay...then there are the gods that just...ehh...help you do thing. 23:45:17 having gods that just help you do things is good 23:45:27 it would be a real problem if crawl did not have simple gods 23:45:37 if nothing else, it would be a bit overwhelming for new players 23:47:26 Interesting, I didn't know that mesmerise could cause you to move towards something that had you feared.. 23:47:34 I suppose one of the two effects would have to win :) 23:47:35 Trog is often recommended for new players. is simple, but still has a big conduct/cost in his magic ban. 23:50:00 all gods also have the conduct of not worshipping another god 23:50:03 Bcadren: but discouraging melee in some way (for Sif or Veh) is not going to result in more interesting gameplay for those gods 23:50:17 which tends to be a plenty interesting disadvantage in itself 23:50:45 magic is a more complex system in that you always train multiple schools and many of the different spells do things that are very different from one-another 23:51:30 so unless you can come up with a game-altering conduct that's actually interesting (like trog's no-magic limitation is), sif and veh would be better as-is 23:51:35 -!- Nethris has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:51:37 (wrt to conducts) 23:52:24 with respect to to conducts? 23:52:27 elyvilon should put felids who die under penance 23:52:37 :) 23:54:21 Keanan: mesmerize itself doesn't cause you to move - sirens have an additional ability that can cause you to move while you are mesmerized by them 23:56:11 Fair enough, then "whatever that ability is called" can cause you to move closer to a feared enemy. :) 23:57:23 Can you still starve to death while staring at a siren? 23:59:02 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:59:13 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.]