00:00:18 may as well disable them unless someone actually wants to do work on them 00:00:22 i barely have time to code nowadays 00:01:17 afaik, they're already set up to be automatically disabled as soon as the beta branch is properly cut ... 00:01:43 * Lightli watches the cutting axe narrowly miss LO 00:01:55 clearly we need to sacrifice another race instead 00:01:59 ha 00:02:00 I nominate Halflings 00:02:25 I nominate Lightli. 00:02:33 welp 00:02:35 * Lightli is cut 00:03:22 Yeah, they have to either be disabled or removed at this point 00:03:48 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-3146-g9d36bc6 (34) 00:04:05 should have pushed that commit like 20 minutes ago... 00:04:41 -!- minqmay has quit [Excess Flood] 00:04:49 -!- Zilis is now known as Melkor 00:05:28 -!- utrick has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC] 00:05:55 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 00:06:08 rip 00:08:14 -!- utrick has joined ##crawl-dev 00:08:36 -!- Melkor is now known as Zilis 00:09:48 03gammafunk02 07* 0.14-a0-3147-g40b18b1: Reduce the frequency of Asterion's Major Destruction. 10(77 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=40b18b1cfcfd 00:10:19 reduce the frequency? I've killed the guy like 4 times and only once seen him cast it 00:10:33 -!- turnerjer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:11:15 http://sprunge.us/NfPW 00:13:31 !killratio asterion * start>=2-26-2014 00:13:33 asterion wins 10.55% of battles against * (start>=2-26-2014). 00:13:58 his killratio after getting back a (smaller) shield and haste 00:14:06 most kills he has aredue to major destruct 00:15:23 Grunt: is that for April 1st... 00:16:48 It could be useful! Flame yourself as a Fe if you're about to die... <_< 00:17:17 -!- Zilis is now known as willster22 00:17:35 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:17:37 Glad I was just lecturing about removing/disabled LO in time for the release.... 00:17:46 s/disabled/disabling/ 00:18:08 -!- willster22 is now known as Zilis 00:20:26 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 00:21:32 -!- poopfist42 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:24:37 -!- Nstar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:28:25 -!- Bcadren has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:04 -!- AlphaQ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:14 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:41:40 Basil: did you see that patch of mine? 00:41:49 http://sprunge.us/NfPW 00:42:16 mmmmmmm 00:42:24 Firestarter and ?immo 00:42:29 (?immo needs updating in there IIRC) 00:43:43 When are you committing that? 00:43:47 after ?immo fix ? 00:46:25 <|amethyst> Grunt: instead of the save and restore in _explode_player you can do unwind_bool saved_dead(you.dead, true); 00:46:26 -!- Krakhan has quit [] 00:47:17 <|amethyst> Grunt: not that it really matters, since there's no control structure there and I think no caught exceptions 00:47:35 |amethyst: aha, right. 00:48:20 |amethyst: but isn't the unwind thing easier on the eyes? 00:48:43 or, well, less work to read? 00:49:05 <|amethyst> less work to read once you know what it does, anyway 00:50:05 -!- Zilis is now known as Zilis|SLEEP 00:50:32 -!- buppy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:50:36 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 00:50:40 (also there is a lot of duplicate beam setup there with the monster case which I'd want to merge) 00:50:50 <|amethyst> more importantly, it's safer wrt code evolution 00:50:54 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 00:51:43 <|amethyst> since inserting an early return somewhere in there might be reasonable enough 00:51:45 |amethyst: I think that in itself reduces the cognitive load 00:52:12 you see it and know both what is INTENDED and what it DOES 00:52:28 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 00:52:34 <|amethyst> yeah 00:52:50 no need to scroll down and match it up with the restore or anything 00:52:58 <|amethyst> well, unless someone who doesn't know about unwind_var goes and changes its scope 00:53:23 is that a thing that happens? 00:53:28 <|amethyst> probably not 00:53:42 <|amethyst> less likely than someone not knowing about the restore adding a return :) 00:54:04 <|amethyst> my only complaint about unwind_var is the name 00:54:05 I mean, I expect it happens to people in their own trees sometimes ... 00:55:16 random idea: thorns aura enemy 00:55:31 idk maybe that's one of the pan demonspawn, I haven't done much with them 00:56:33 Hmm 00:56:44 multi shot lightning enchanted 00:56:49 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:56:50 hahaha yesss 00:56:53 that too!!! 01:00:28 Fountain texts do not match behavior (quaff removal) by johnnyzero 01:00:57 actually lightning enchanted is in the game 01:01:02 shock serpents 01:01:39 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 30.0a1/20140221030202]] 01:02:38 -!- prandor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:49 -!- NotKintak has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:04:52 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 01:12:10 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 01:13:52 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:14:28 -!- nonethousand has joined ##crawl-dev 01:14:42 -!- Krakhan|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:15:13 -!- NilsBloodaxe has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:23:09 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:26:35 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 01:30:41 -!- Argent has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:31:23 -!- Kraito has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:32:06 -!- Argent has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:35:06 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 01:36:22 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:36:36 -!- rast- is now known as rast 01:38:35 -!- Kraito has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:46 -!- nixor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:42:07 -!- Kraito has quit [Client Quit] 01:42:09 -!- demiskeleton has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:45:11 -!- uhi has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:48:30 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 01:52:28 -!- ayutzia has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:52:32 -!- Staplegun has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55:44 -!- NotKintak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55:59 -!- Kintak has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:59:01 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: qqqqqqq] 02:04:04 -!- test is now known as Guest1851 02:05:23 -!- Guest1851 has quit [Client Quit] 02:09:17 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:10:33 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:23 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:14:24 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:16:50 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.14-a0-3147-g40b18b1 (34) 02:20:48 -!- Bovinius has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:29:22 -!- minmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:46:07 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 02:47:53 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:48:42 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:50:22 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:50:44 -!- chris-oelmueller is now known as Guest86840 02:51:07 -!- Chousuke_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:51 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:54:37 -!- ChrisOelmueller has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:54:39 -!- Guest86840 is now known as ChrisOelmueller 02:54:40 -!- F-Glex has joined ##crawl-dev 02:54:57 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:55:11 -!- eviltwin_b has joined ##crawl-dev 02:56:05 -!- tksquared has quit [*.net *.split] 02:56:06 -!- galehar has quit [*.net *.split] 02:56:06 -!- Chousuke has quit [*.net *.split] 02:56:07 -!- G-Flex has quit [*.net *.split] 02:56:08 -!- Zaba has quit [*.net *.split] 02:56:09 -!- elly has quit [*.net *.split] 02:56:09 -!- geekosaur has quit [*.net *.split] 02:56:09 -!- Kalma has quit [*.net *.split] 02:56:10 -!- Kalma_ is now known as Kalma 02:56:25 -!- eviltwin_b is now known as geekosaur 02:57:41 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:00:19 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 03:01:26 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:00 -!- utrick has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:07:00 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 03:07:17 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:22:19 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:24:16 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:35:41 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:26 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:38:30 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:38:43 -!- rast- is now known as rast 03:43:43 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 03:59:18 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:02:23 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:38 -!- lorenz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:07:52 -!- lorenz_ is now known as lorenz 04:11:15 -!- TacoSundae has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:12:36 Grunt: re shops in spider, i would suggest removing the sentient residents instead 04:13:20 since i am not sure what they really add? other than being like snake enemies except in spider 04:15:15 the non-classed fo should just be dummy monsters for sure at least, there's really no need for bands of extra junk 04:30:21 hm, band_type doesn't actually need any save compat handling does it? i wonder if it is me who has left all these TAG_MAJOR_VERSION checks in it for old band removals, probably 04:40:37 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:41:19 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 04:43:08 -!- icantfindaname has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:44:10 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:46:05 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:57 -!- lorenz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:16 -!- buzzykins has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:00:06 -!- eoc has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:52 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:06:42 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:09:10 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:13:41 -!- bmfx has quit [Client Quit] 05:18:37 -!- futility has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:23:59 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:28:55 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:35:14 |amethyst: i'm seeing some weird things when examining up stairs in debug mode, i think the "<" symbol is interpreted as a colour tag somehow? 05:35:32 examining a down stair gives something like " (31,26): > - a stone staircase leading down. (42/stone_stairs_down_i) (unknown stair) map: 142 05:35:32 " 05:35:38 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 05:35:48 but an upstair just gives "(31,27): D:9@(15,53)) map: 42" 05:36:38 -!- Wolpertinger has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:38:26 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:38:39 -!- rast- is now known as rast 05:38:56 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 05:44:48 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 05:47:28 -!- link_108 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:47:41 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:56:28 -!- spanner has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:00:58 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:53 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 06:12:35 Regarding formicid monsters, I had thought about boosting their melee and such considerably so that they could be a sort of mid-tier threat where they are, as there's pretty much nothing in the branch that isn't fast/evasive and these could be a contrast to that while being meaningfully dangerous (as opposed to the junk they are now). And maybe give them a chance for a couple large rocks, too. 06:12:45 I thought that might be able to have a reasonable role in the branch that isn't already filled 06:13:22 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:13:34 (Though I had just thought to cut venom mages at the same time >.>) 06:15:44 I am doing a second pass of Lair branch balance stuff at the moment, in fact 06:15:57 Various tweaks here and there 06:16:23 mm, i'm inclined to make plain ones not generate and then if some mid-tier formicid thing is really needed in spider that could be a new classed monster 06:16:56 That's fine. I actually thought 'drone' fit for them anyway 06:17:15 (partly since i have the commit written already :P) 06:17:19 Haha 06:17:34 Formicid Drone does sound relatively beefy and soldier-like to me, at least 06:19:41 -!- rorriMnmaD has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:20:08 theme-wise and vaguely related to the shop thing, i kinda like spider having no sentient/intelligent stuff 06:20:12 but that's not a big deal either way 06:20:24 I wouldn't say they're 'needed', as such, but I think it would be a reasonable role to have filled in the branch population (as contrast to most things being big bands of small/quick stuff) 06:20:50 And they just got nice tiles, recently! :P 06:23:53 Also on the formicid topic, what about removing their ability to use giant clubs and boosting their shield apt to +2 or something, to encourage more use of their two-hander + shield quirk as opposed to it being more sensible to pretend their an ogre? 06:24:47 -!- DrKe2 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:25:37 that sounds okay to me, yeah 06:27:37 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 06:36:32 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 06:38:18 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:47:50 -!- conted has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:57:59 Man, how many times am I going to crash Crawl by typing in 'berserker' instead of 'spriggan berserker' now and getting a 'cannot place' assert for deep dwarf berserkers? :P 07:12:49 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:04 -!- radinms has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 07:18:59 So, arena now seems to fail if you ever create more than one monster on either side 07:19:06 With a 'failure to place monster (x, y)' error 07:19:29 Possibly this has to do with the recent change to some of that monster location picking code? 07:27:45 -!- soundlust|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:34:09 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 07:35:54 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:33 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:38:22 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:38:37 -!- rast- is now known as rast 07:41:48 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: how recently do you remember it working? 07:42:01 I probably haven't used it in like a week, maybe? 07:42:09 Or so. I don't remember for sure. 07:42:19 -!- mariakor has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:43:33 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:45:50 -!- xFleury has joined ##crawl-dev 07:45:57 Bah. I rewound to test a commit and then Crawl just crashes on startup consistantly. I recall last time I bisected anything, I landed on like 6 seperate non-working commits, many of which weren't evident until after a full compile 07:46:04 A touch annoying, that 07:47:23 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:47:40 Okay, nothing to do with those commits after all, it seems 07:47:45 -!- jmbto has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 07:55:38 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:56:59 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 08:01:51 -!- scummos__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:10:07 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:11:13 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:14:45 -!- gnum has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:16:22 Oh, huh 08:16:26 Apparently this is the offending commit 08:16:35 %git 787ed994 08:16:36 07ChrisOelmueller02 {|amethyst} * 0.14-a0-2912-g787ed99: Fix typos in vault tags 10(7 days ago, 6 files, 29+ 29-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=787ed994d928 08:17:39 I'm going to guess that arena maps should NOT have no_monster_gen? 08:18:01 <|amethyst> oh, that could do it 08:18:18 I'm curious why it's fine with placing one monster there, but not two on the one team? 08:20:04 I mean, I could just remove the tags and probably that would fix it, but I'm curious the reason this actually causes the problem in the way it does 08:24:03 <|amethyst> hm 08:24:15 <|amethyst> something recently changed the habitability checks, what was that... 08:24:35 Like, it will even place a full band just fine 08:24:43 Just not two SEPERATE monsters (even of the same type) 08:24:54 <|amethyst> the arena forces the position 08:25:09 It doesn't look like it does, to me 08:25:19 It seems to use dgn_place_monster with force_place as false? 08:25:36 <|amethyst> %git const monster* mon = dgn_place_monster(spec, 08:25:36 Could not find commit const monster* mon = dgn_place_monster(spec, (git returned 128) 08:25:37 <|amethyst> loc, false, true, false); 08:25:39 <|amethyst> if (!mon) 08:25:45 <|amethyst> oh 08:25:53 <|amethyst> never mind, I was misreading the argument numbers 08:26:05 <|amethyst> stupid bools 08:26:28 Like, presumably force_place might override no_monster_gen, but I don't see why it's different for monster #1 than monster #2 08:26:52 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: monster #2's spot is occupied 08:27:05 Oh 08:27:12 And I guess it then tries to find a habitable spot 08:27:15 And there aren't any 08:27:39 And it just doesn't check no_monster_gen at the spot it is given, if it can place something there? 08:27:46 <|amethyst> hm 08:28:00 <|amethyst> that's the thing, I don't *see* it checking that flag 08:29:31 Removing the flag does seem to fix the problem, though 08:30:34 <|amethyst> hmm 08:30:40 <|amethyst> it's not even calling that function 08:30:41 <|amethyst> let me see 08:31:10 I think I found it 08:31:27 Look at _valid_spot in mon-place.cc 08:31:33 Called via newmons_square_find 08:31:45 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 08:32:13 Which itself is called if it tries to place the monster on an occupied spot 08:32:21 <|amethyst> aha 08:32:43 Okay, I think that's probably the mystery solve 08:32:44 d 08:33:59 <|amethyst> which came from 08:34:03 <|amethyst> %git 0d714ef 08:34:03 07kilobyte02 * 0.9-a1-868-g0d714ef: Don't spawn ZotDef monsters and royal jelly offshots in the loot chambers. 10(2 years, 8 months ago, 2 files, 14+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0d714ef464ef 08:36:06 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:43:29 -!- broilor has quit [Ping timeout: 269 seconds] 08:46:15 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.14-a0-3148-g25989ad: Remove no_monster_gen from arena maps 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 22+ 22-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=25989adbf22b 08:48:26 -!- Bcadren has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:20 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:51:25 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-3149-g89d4236: Update fountain descriptions (#8248) 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=89d4236a367a 08:51:25 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-3150-ge394c36: Update some more feature descriptions 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 9+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e394c362600d 08:51:25 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-3151-ga23cdd3: Remove a reference to spirit wolves 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a23cdd3435a5 08:51:25 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-3152-g1b4a07a: Don't generate plain formicids 10(2 hours ago, 6 files, 3+ 59-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1b4a07aabe43 08:54:19 "It is damn sure the needles from this trap are doused in something nasty." 08:54:21 Wow, nice description 08:56:30 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:43 -!- nubcakes has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:06:11 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:26:18 Crawl descriptive text has been hilariously butchered since stone soup 09:26:42 I miss some of the old descriptions 09:26:48 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:27:37 For instance the old sheep description >>>>>> the new one 09:28:57 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:29:01 -!- Fhqwhgads__ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 09:29:22 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 09:29:54 old treant description 09:30:02 What was the old treant description? 09:30:51 %git 3ddfe14736f 09:30:51 07DracoOmega02 * 0.14-a0-2168-g3ddfe14: A new description for Shambling Mangroves 10(7 weeks ago, 3 files, 8+ 27-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3ddfe14736f6 09:31:12 Ooh neat, I didn't realize we had korean text 09:31:46 i think korean is one of the more complete translations 09:32:57 oh that reminds me to mention that we should probably change translations to not be default for 0.14, though 09:33:20 since i think it was mentioned that some of them are not very high quality 09:33:54 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:34:38 Default as in webtiles detecting the user's preferred language? 09:35:00 detecting system locale, yeah 09:35:49 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:10 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:11 good to leave on for trunk in the hope that some people will be feel like improving them, i think. not sure how well-advertised transifex is generally though, or if many new people get added to the translation teams at the moment? 09:38:18 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:38:27 -!- rast- is now known as rast 09:39:08 a good example of this is I thought there was a move off of transifex a few months ago for some not-great reason I can't remember 09:41:01 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 09:41:34 i feel like there was some discussion of sirens not being able to immediately re-mesm you after you break it 09:41:37 that would be a good thing 09:41:54 i'm now 2 for 2 this game in using a wand of lightning to break mesm only to get immediately retagged 09:42:09 it is implausible for most characters to have enough MR to do anything about this 09:44:45 3 for 3 now. is this merely bad luck or are sirens actually intentionally doing this now? if the latter, that is incredibly bad 09:46:32 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:48:43 It's as old as sirens themselves are, anyway (the frequency they attempt to mesmerize has not been touched for years) 09:50:33 i'm not sure i recall this in the past, do they have higher HD now or something? 09:50:55 siren (11m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | HP: 72-96 | AC/EV: 4/12 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, amphibious | Res: 06magic(121), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1060 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 09:50:55 %??siren 09:50:58 siren (11m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | HP: 73-96 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, amphibious | Res: 06magic(121), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1060 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 09:50:58 %?siren 09:53:36 at any rate, this immediate re-mesming coupled with siren behavior is pretty gross, it doesn't really leave you very many options 09:54:35 many of the consumables you might ordinarily use to combat mesm (noise, lightning) are eliminated 09:54:54 arguably worse, they get used spuriously thinking they might help 09:54:57 Exactly how are they eliminated in any way that they couldn't already fail previously? 09:55:11 Since, as I said, sirens don't actually sing more often than they used to 09:55:23 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:57:09 if i'm wrong and this is how they always performed, then it was incredibly bad in the past and i was merely unaware 09:57:33 my local trunk is not up to date and i don't feel like wasting all of my consumables testing the immediate re-mesm hypothesis 09:58:14 previously they didn't pull you into shallow water and sit just out of reach in deep water 100% of the time 09:58:32 i think they've had at least some of that behavior for a while, but it did seem less pronounced in the past 09:58:34 Yes they did :P 09:58:38 If they could 09:58:52 I didn't actually change that. (In fact, I fixed a bug that caused them to run away even MORE than they currently do) 09:58:58 -!- petete has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:59:13 well 09:59:14 (If you hit them, sometimes they would charge off to the edge of the map for a few turns for no clear reason) 09:59:20 part of the issue was in the past i wouldn't do shoals until xl 20+ 09:59:32 when both intrinsically and gearwise i was likely to have better mr 09:59:50 so part of the problem is encouraging people to do lair branches earlier, i guess 10:01:25 An awful lot of old siren behaviors have somehow been blamed on me these days when nothing actually changed 10:01:41 (That being said, there are some adjustments in the pipeline) 10:02:29 (Well, I mean, some things changed. But many things that didn't change that people speak of as changed, also) 10:02:39 so other than souls, what changed 10:02:42 Wow, that's an awkwardly worded sentence 10:02:55 i'm not really interested in blaming, i'm interested in fixing 10:02:58 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:03:07 my point is, sirens blow. what are these proposed adjustments? 10:03:29 'Sirens blow' is perhaps not the most unbiased starting point for any discussion :P 10:03:45 neither is reflexive defensiveness, which seems like your starting point 10:04:06 note that this got turned into a discussion about "when" rather than "is this behavior any good?" 10:06:21 -!- tksquared_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:08:23 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 10:09:08 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 10:09:35 there is a slight difference in severity of problematic behaviour there 10:10:38 -!- xFleury has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:11:04 i don't think so, if you're inclined to take umbrage at all critique because you perceive it as directed at you it makes it quite hard to talk about anything 10:11:41 it also makes fairly benign statements like "sirens blow" severe 10:11:48 benign 10:12:25 my actual description of what i thought the problems were was basically met with "i don't know why everybody blames me for this stuff" 10:13:11 doing shoals and snake with buffed creatures at XL14 instead of old XL20 is a good thing 10:13:43 Well, you claimed that certain behaviors were new and they are not new. Many other people have claimed that other behaviors are new and they are not new. 10:14:06 And I assure you that there is nothing merely 'percieved' about some criticism being directed at me, as I have seen quite a lot that is very explicit about who they're upset with. :P 10:14:09 and that's all you're interested in discussing, not the behavior! 10:14:19 this is kinda proving my point 10:14:29 on average more players die and that is apparently the direction crawl should be going 10:14:44 i'm happy to be mistaken, and later on i comment that maybe the reason i perceive it that way is because previous design choices made it possible to skip lair branches for a while 10:15:00 What point is it proving exactly? 10:15:15 neither is reflexive defensiveness, which seems like your starting point 10:15:20 note that this got turned into a discussion about "when" rather than "is this behavior any good?" 10:16:16 it is still completely plausible to skip shoals 10:16:29 yes go do abyss at XL15 10:16:32 unless you want to turn your complaints towards spider and snake instead 10:17:35 "pan is awful" "it's completely reasonable to skip pan so who cares" 10:18:00 beyond that, i would say that if we ended up in a scenario where somebody always skipped one of the lair branches 10:18:07 the change would be to make the other lair branch harder to compensate 10:18:19 well spider should be made harder 10:18:21 in some sense this is kinda how runelock came about in the first place 10:18:33 spider is still easier than snake imo 10:18:34 er 10:18:35 harder 10:18:39 yokelz: not long ago tenofswords told me spider was the goal, i believe 10:18:39 i am bad at words 10:18:48 ??? 10:18:48 I don't have a page labeled ? in my learndb. Did you mean: !, #, &, *, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, z, ~. 10:18:50 and these days i tend to agree that it often feels like the easiest lair branch 10:18:58 oh right 10:19:12 crate: dunno, spiders don't take a lot of beating, don't portal projectile with crossbows 10:19:14 (of course complaints about sirens have absolutely nothing to do with difficulty) 10:19:17 tenofswords: i'll dig it up, back when the swamp changes first went in i recall asking about what the goal was for lair branch difficulty and getting "spider" 10:19:20 yokelz, they're also not slower than you 10:19:26 yes, I remember now 10:19:43 spider is a weird branch. very easy for melee chars, tough for casters. 10:19:59 DracoOmega: about sirens, is the MR check harder than it used to be? 10:20:12 !lg . !won spider 10:20:13 1. yokelz the Severer (L16 MiBe of Trog), slain by Jorgrun (a +0,+0 quarterstaff of crushing) on Spider:5 on 2014-02-06 13:25:47, with 126947 points after 29431 turns and 2:03:57. 10:20:21 I vaguely remember hearing something about that and it sounded like a bad change (that would probably explain extra complaints about them) 10:20:28 !lg . !won snake 10:20:29 1. yokelz the Warrior (L19 TrMo of Cheibriados), blasted by Jorgrun (Shatter) on Snake:2 on 2013-10-14 12:30:55, with 244798 points after 37061 turns and 3:53:39. 10:20:33 oh 10:20:38 since even if they aren't singing more frequently, they'll still be mesmerizing you more frequently 10:20:41 "nerf jorgrun" 10:21:16 tenofswords: nah in my opinion a lot of uniques could be buffed 10:21:36 i think crawl uniques are already in general too difficult because there's no reward for killing them 10:21:51 I'd agree with buffs + large xp increases 10:21:51 buff them clearly in xp and somewhat in difficulty 10:22:05 pikel is in a good place 10:22:08 you can't actually give enough xp increase to many of them since i think they should be over 15k 10:22:09 not all of them of course, but maybe some with the lowest killratios 10:22:13 pikel is a model unique 10:22:19 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:22:20 yeah pikel is good 10:22:34 is there a limit to max XP reward for kills? 10:22:35 except a bit more disappointing now that the elec whip is much rarer 10:22:36 pikel occasionally gives you the best weapon you could wish for at the depth 10:22:43 15k has always been the limit for xp for a single enemy 10:22:46 ah 10:22:46 PleasingFungus: yes, almost nothing hits it at the moment though 10:22:46 as far as i know 10:22:54 i think antaeus and cerebov are it 10:22:54 elliptic: the power scales rather than being fixed now i think 10:22:54 ...why? 10:22:56 %git a4782071bdf70d 10:22:56 07DracoOmega02 * 0.14-a0-2190-ga478207: Make siren/mermaid mesmerisation scale with HD 10(7 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a4782071bdf7 10:23:07 elliptic: Well, many of the complaints I've seen involve beheviours claimed as new that are not new at all. But it's true that the MR check is harder than I remember it being. I did make it affected by HD, but one of the intents of that was to make it differented for lower HD stuff 10:23:18 generally i'd agree that giving a couple of turns of immunity after it expires/breaks would be reasonable 10:23:19 I didn't recall raising it quite as high as that, though 10:23:23 DracoOmega: so it looks like the check changed from 100 to 150 for sirens 10:23:30 which is rather large, yes :) 10:23:32 yeah 150 is pretty rough 10:23:42 I thought it was 130 actually (and 80 for mermaids) 10:23:46 I think 100 was pretty reasonable 10:23:48 But it seems not 10:23:56 even 100 -> 130 wouldn't be called for I think 10:24:36 that's equivalent to negating one 30-point MR item... was there a problem with sirens being resisted too much at 100? I don't think so 10:24:42 ackack: do you remember that "if runelock does not work as intended it will just be removed" when it got introduced 10:24:59 generally i like how things turned out with that 10:25:21 honestly I think the runelock is working well. it's just the exile of the forest monster that's made certain lair branches kind of silly 10:25:25 *forest monsters 10:25:31 runelock would have been removed if we didn't think it was working fine, yes 10:25:35 yeah remove the rune lock from depths, no need for it there since nobody sensible will go there voluntarily anyway l0l 10:25:48 Good thing there's no lock there! :P 10:26:29 generally people seem happy that the "boring midgame" is gone now but I liked the difference in pace it made 10:26:29 remove runelock for the sake of improving crate_crawl 10:26:30 imo 10:26:44 i haven't done all of the lair branches enough since dispersal to have a good feel for how that's working out, i've obviously complained quite a bit about druids specifically but am unsure past that 10:26:56 but yes, i think harder lair branches could be met with unlocking vaults 10:26:58 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 10:27:03 it's not like xl15/16 vaults is a picnic either 10:27:39 it would give you more chance of finding rpois and flight though which people like having for the lair branches 10:27:40 elliptic: You might be right, and possibly some of it was more experience doing it at higher xl with naturally higher MR in the first place. Probably I am not a fan of some of the way MR checks in general work though, since a single MR item can often be like 90% resist at certain levels, which is an awful lot for one item. 10:27:50 Nothing specific to sirens there, though 10:28:04 But I remember doing a bunch of math for different characters for someone else once and frowning a bunch 10:28:17 DracoOmega: 90% resist to what? for 90% resist to 100 power sirens you need a huge amount of MR 10:28:22 No, no 10:28:23 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:28:35 he means four winds, obviously 10:28:45 Also no. I wasn't even talking about sirens here 10:29:17 also important what the resistance x before the MR was 10:29:37 in general, i think for 3 rune games at least that MR is a very nice mechanic 10:30:12 Sort of hard to be specific without the actual data I had, but I just remember seeing that a single MR ring can often reduce the chances of being hexed by 90% or something (depends on your xl and race and such, but it wasn't a bizzare setup either). But this is also a completely side point to sirens. 10:30:23 DracoOmega: pretty sure that's completely impossible 10:30:38 I can try to find the math. I may still have it somewhere. 10:30:45 maybe you go from 90% chance of resisting to 99%? 10:30:47 going from a 90% resist to 99% resist of some effect would do that 10:30:49 It involved fauns and such at xl 22-25 ish, for oldforest 10:30:49 haha 10:30:51 if you have a 90% chance of resisting something and then your MR is lowered by 30, you should still have at least a 72% of resisting 10:32:03 Yes, going from something like 80% resist to 98% resist is more what I meant, where you are effectively affected by only 10% as much stuff as without it 10:32:26 that's possible, sure, but that doesn't seem unreasonable to me 10:32:53 since you really need a ton of MR for that 10:33:06 I mean, ideally there wouldn't be a magic number where you get 100% resistance 10:33:15 but this really doesn't come up in actual play much 10:33:18 This involved I think just being something like an elf putting on a single MR ring in lategame 10:33:31 But I really can't be specific. It was like 8 months ago 10:34:58 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:34:59 -!- Fhqwhgads__ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 10:36:03 Like, I guess I have a general personal sentiment that were I to rebuild Crawl from scratch, I'd change how MR works in several ways. But I'm not actually proposing any particular changes here or anything. 10:36:40 i think making magic tougher to resist generally would need to also have less powerful effects 10:36:43 Since high MR races seem to get only a pretty slight advantage at low levels and then a massive one later on, a lot of things are fairly binary, and so on 10:37:06 or have more effects that accumulate in power 10:37:33 (meaning e.g. the first hit of slow isn't that bad, after two or three you're where we are now, etc.) 10:38:29 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:38:53 anyway, I can agree that the current MR formula isn't perfect, but I think that reverting siren MR check back to power 100 would be a good idea for 0.14 10:39:28 or at least the average of mermaid/siren check could still be 100 10:39:37 Yeah, it's higher than I honestly even remember 10:39:46 I was working flat-out those two weeks T.T 10:39:47 mermaid (10m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 8 | HP: 26-46 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 17 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, amphibious | Res: 06magic(53), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 349 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 10:39:47 %??mermaid 10:39:51 siren (11m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | HP: 72-96 | AC/EV: 4/12 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, amphibious | Res: 06magic(121), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1060 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 10:39:51 %??siren 10:40:15 particularly if the goal is to have people actually do shoals at lowish levels, 100 seems reasonable 10:40:20 Anyway, mesmerisation has a really short duration unless regularly refreshed, so how about: lower MR check, increase normal duration, give a short immunity when it breaks? 10:40:41 who's left that mesms other than mermaids and sirens, jory? 10:40:52 and does he work differently? 10:40:54 Jory's uses different code, even :P 10:41:00 struggling against mesmerization sounds better than being mesmerized 100% of the time 10:41:01 Since it's an actual spell 10:41:14 the immunity when it breaks might be a good change too, I don't have much feeling about that (I generally don't find mesmerise to be a big deal even though it happens all the time) 10:41:17 so maybe just having it more resistable would be more interesting 10:42:11 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:42:39 Anyway, I did have a few siren adjustments already coded in this second rebalancing pass. I can toss a few of these things in with it 10:42:55 The kobold hits you with a runed whip. You are electrocuted! 10:42:57 Ouch! That really hurt! 10:42:59 :( 10:43:01 on D:1 10:43:11 19 damage 10:46:39 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:49:22 sounds like crawl 10:53:00 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:53:51 -!- Zilis|SLEEP has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:54:19 -!- Zilis|SLEEP has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:29 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:57:40 -!- Fhqwhgads__ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 10:59:15 pity, would have been an awesome starter weapon, had you managed him somehow, TZer0 10:59:16 Napkin: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:59:48 was going to give it to you but then he tripped and 11:01:09 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 11:03:36 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 30.0a1/20140221030202]] 11:07:33 -!- soundlust|2 is now known as soundlust 11:09:53 -!- buppy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:13 -!- distimer has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21:03 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:21:11 Napkin: that would've required a lucky hit with throw ice :P 11:24:35 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 11:26:38 -!- Laraso has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:40 -!- Bamboomancer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:32:13 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:33:37 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:34:49 -!- Whistling_Bread has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:37:52 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:47 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:38:50 -!- rast- is now known as rast 11:38:59 -!- Aponym has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:40:11 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:25 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11157 11:42:30 so much activity! 11:43:12 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:43:13 -!- rast- is now known as rast 11:46:36 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.14-a0-3152-g1b4a07a (34) 11:48:11 : *hiny 11:48:13 ;l[o 11:48:23 god damn it 11:57:27 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:57:29 -!- Fhqwhgads__ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 11:59:32 -!- debo has quit [Quit: debo] 12:00:47 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:03:25 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:09 -!- nonethousand has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:05:12 -!- minmay has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:11 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:08:53 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:54 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 12:11:23 zzz 12:11:54 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:17:43 -!- notcluie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:22:11 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 12:23:28 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:23:48 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 12:23:51 anyone here? 12:24:29 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:26:25 I am 12:26:49 I don't know if I'm "anyone" though, i might just be "someone" 12:29:28 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 12:30:26 -!- erratic_magenta has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:32:10 -!- cr0ne has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:32:57 I'm everyone 12:33:58 That must be unpleasant 12:36:57 anyways, someone on SA claimed that trunk i 12:37:04 *trunk is harder than .4 12:37:24 So keep up the good work 12:39:33 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 12:41:28 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:42:01 probably jazzinus or w/e 12:43:26 isn't pretty much every version that's not 0.4, harder than 0.4 12:44:26 -!- Turgon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:45:18 oh I guess 0.3 would be easier 12:49:11 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 12:49:23 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:49:41 oh haha that was my roomie 12:49:48 I have no idea why he said that 12:49:50 i find it very hard to actually play .4 now though 12:51:57 TZer0: maybe send a pm to grimm, he might not have spotted the thread 12:55:07 -!- MakMorn has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55:07 -!- BanquosGhost has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56:05 yet simply switch the 0 and the 4 and you get the hardest crawl version 12:56:20 4.0 wasnt that hard afaik 12:56:33 4.1 is the hard one 12:56:41 oh 12:57:07 I don't really get 4.1 myself, all I know is that 4.1 has stuff like centaurs that kite you 12:57:38 -!- blackcustard has quit [Quit: being stupid, sunstruck, and Dead, flew into the rocketing FIN.] 12:57:41 that sounds awful 12:57:53 ??4.1[3 12:57:54 4.1[3/6]: what's really overpowered in 4.1 elliott: monsters 12:58:37 (Also apparently Francis can summon liches in Lair. And somehow 'Rupert the Nutty Magician' summons fiends?) 12:59:11 did Sif Muna channeling exist back then 12:59:13 "Rupert the Nutty Magician" 12:59:22 I miss mummies summoning liches 12:59:25 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59:28 Yes, uniques have titles or something 12:59:31 -!- MakMorn has left ##crawl-dev 12:59:36 I guess Rupert was a rather different kind of guy back then 12:59:59 to compensate for all the summoning nerfs shadow demons should clearly get summon lich 13:00:09 well they already have that 13:00:13 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:57 728 { 1, 9, 125, PEAK, MONS_LICH }, is not exactly "always" 13:05:56 to compensate for all the summon nerfs summon mammal should be replaced with "summon pan lord" 13:06:49 (it summons a spriggan baker) 13:06:59 -!- Zilis|SLEEP has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:07:27 -!- Zilis|SLEEP has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:11 -!- halv has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:15:32 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:48 -!- jmbto has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:24 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 13:19:48 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 13:19:48 -!- ttj__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:59 hey PleasingFungus sorry I baited you into getting probated 13:20:08 haha 13:20:13 what's your sa name? 13:20:18 jeffrey 13:20:26 ahh 13:20:29 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 13:20:31 no the only one I blame there is myself 13:20:33 and woozle wuzzle 13:20:34 i make bad posts 13:21:07 w/e 13:21:37 I was actually in the middle of composing a PM to request that w.w. also get a 6-hour 13:21:39 after I'd noticed mine 13:21:55 then I went back and checked and saw that w.w. had been hit after me 13:21:58 social justice 13:22:29 lol woo 13:24:54 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:37:13 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:40:12 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 13:43:41 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:43:54 -!- rast- is now known as rast 13:44:38 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:45:13 -!- Fengor_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:55:18 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:55:38 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57:47 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 14:04:58 -!- Eonwe1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:06:49 -!- Morokiane has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:58 -!- broilor has joined ##crawl-dev 14:12:18 -!- Eonwe1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:15:02 -!- Danei has quit [Quit: Those who tell the truth shall die, those who tell the truth shall live forever.] 14:15:29 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 14:17:24 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 14:17:58 -!- popchik has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:19:46 -!- Kraito has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:24:11 -!- Zilis|SLEEP is now known as Zilis 14:25:35 -!- scummos| has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:06 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:32:40 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:42:48 So why does targeting automatically try to go through plants/fungi? 14:46:40 Mordusangel (L7 MiBe) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 712: Exit exit_sewer[152] didn't get generated. (Sewer) 14:46:48 Mordusangel (L7 MiBe) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 712: Exit exit_sewer[152] didn't get generated. (Sewer) 14:46:54 Mordusangel (L7 MiBe) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 712: Exit exit_sewer[152] didn't get generated. (Sewer) 14:47:17 Mordusangel (L7 MiBe) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 712: Exit exit_sewer[152] didn't get generated. (Sewer) 14:48:03 -!- omnirizon has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:51:17 -!- nonethousand has joined ##crawl-dev 14:51:37 AreBrandon: IIRC (emphasis on IF) it's because you might be with Fedhas, but the targeter doesn't, (or didn't, mabye it was fixed) know that until it's time to fire. 15:03:00 reaverb: It seems to still be a problem. I guess that makes sense though. Should still not happen if you are not with Fedhas. 15:04:43 AreBrandon: Apparently the targetting code is really bad. 15:05:33 Mordusangel (L7 MiBe) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 712: Exit exit_sewer[152] didn't get generated. (Sewer) 15:06:21 !crash mordusangel -log 15:09:02 -!- Kraito has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:09:19 -!- Laraso has quit [Quit: Laraso falls through a shaft! The shaft crumbles and collapses.] 15:09:39 that's bizarre, the cash dump says it's sewer_frog_island_01 but I see nothing that would make the two if anyone feels like doing a text fix: an invisible monster throwing a returning weapon generates the message "The weapon returns from whence it came!" 15:18:49 it should be "The weapon returns whence it came!" 15:18:59 'whence' essentially means "from where" 15:19:05 so it's like saying "the weapon returns from from where it came" 15:20:38 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [] 15:21:08 It might be better to just say 'The weapon returns from where it came!' 15:21:56 Incidentally, it does look like there was a pathing bug affecting eels (and other things) 15:22:03 Which I am trying to fix 15:22:12 Stupid tangled monster movement code -.- 15:23:53 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:06 see??? im not always lying 15:24:24 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:35 It's less the statement that it moved away and more the assumption that this would be some deliberate action on my part 15:24:38 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:59 Instead of maybe it might be a bug 15:25:18 -!- truemonolith has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:25:29 i never assumed it was a deliberate action on *your* part! 15:25:40 did some other guy? 15:26:07 -!- scummos__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:34 I suppose you might have him on ignore, then? It rather looked like his remark was responded to. It suppose it's possible that was coincidence 15:27:06 -!- stickyfingers has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:27:49 i dont ignore anyone in ##crawl, but i also dont read every line, so i probably just missed it :P 15:28:13 anyway while I admit to implying it was deliberate, I certainly didn't name (or imply) anyone specific! 15:28:50 Well, it's definitely not deliberate. It doesn't even work very effectively if it was, since they just plain stop firing at you completely :P 15:29:02 And maybe even move out of sight 15:29:12 So that they can get back into melee range of you 15:29:22 Which is clearly exactly where an eel wants to be :P 15:30:05 have seen that and wondered about it actually 15:30:33 (The crazy thing is that it looks like it might be possible they only pathfind if they HAVE a line of fire to you, and instead will sit behind a wall being confused if they don't) 15:30:52 did you know that electric eels not only have the ability to create powerful shocks but also have an accute sensitivity to electric fields? 15:31:01 (they also aren't eels at all!) 15:31:10 I found part of the cause, but I want to understand a bit more why some of this is happening 15:31:14 Since I feel there may be other bugs lurking here 15:31:25 The most 'immediate' cause is that eels are literally too dumb to know they can fire at you 15:31:28 And so assume they can't 15:31:31 http://sprunge.us/YXBN 15:31:37 (I have no idea why this check requires I_NORMAL) 15:31:43 Since that seems completely foolish 15:32:27 tenofswords: Nice commit title :P 15:32:38 really I think "monsters move towards you" is fine AI for crawl 15:32:53 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:32:56 Doom is a fun game. 15:33:05 Monsters move towards you in Doom. 15:33:15 Well, in this case their desire to move towards you is what was actually causing them to move away, so... :P 15:33:15 but not in doomrl! 15:33:25 doomrl isn't doom 15:33:31 you can't even run AND gun at the same time 15:33:36 you can now 15:33:41 if you are a scout 15:34:30 -!- nono has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:34:34 if you get a master trait that only works when running (which you can't do all the time) 15:35:00 it's hilariously overpowered anyway 15:37:00 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 15:40:29 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:37 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:43:42 -!- rast- is now known as rast 15:50:12 -!- Tedronai has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:53:41 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:13 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:04:01 -!- AreBrandon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:06:18 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:11:47 -!- Sky__ is now known as Guest87563 16:12:40 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 16:12:56 -!- Guest87563 is now known as Sky___ 16:14:39 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:21 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:48 -!- Sky___ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:25:25 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:17 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:30:01 -!- Watball has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:47 -!- codrus has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:31:58 03gammafunk02 07* 0.14-a0-3153-g064f5fb: Make octopode crushers throw what they constrict, not always the player. 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 39+ 15-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=064f5fb3d781 16:31:58 03gammafunk02 07* 0.14-a0-3154-g428849b: Make the monster throw ability use a ray path. 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 25+ 18-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=428849b03052 16:32:27 -!- kingbuddyboy has quit [Client Quit] 16:34:08 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:13 !seen Grunt 16:34:13 dpeg: You have 7 messages. Use !messages to read them. 16:34:13 I last saw Grunt at Sat Mar 8 06:50:40 2014 UTC (15h 43m 33s ago) saying '(also there is a lot of duplicate beam setup there with the monster case which I'd want to merge)' on ##crawl-dev. 16:34:19 !messages 16:34:19 (1/7) minmay said (1w 4d 20h 58m 44s ago): https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10275&p=142000#p142000 16:35:54 -!- sky___ has quit [Client Quit] 16:36:29 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:38:00 dpeg: I sure hope you won't see the mess that was yesterday. 16:39:26 Oh, um.... 16:39:33 Apparently this eel bug has been around since at least 0.13 16:39:41 So, uh, I guess it wasn't a recent pathfind change at all 16:39:48 wait, I thought eels were ; not s 16:40:00 What? 16:40:05 sorry... 16:40:08 ??bug 16:40:08 bug[1/2]: To report bugs, go to: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php 16:40:09 They are, but what does that have to do with this? :P 16:40:12 ??s 16:40:12 s[1/2]: Eww, a bug! 16:40:23 console joke 16:41:07 Bloax: what was going on? 16:41:24 nonsense 16:41:33 Bloax: coupled with drama? 16:41:39 -!- LordSloth has quit [Quit: Using leafChat 2] 16:41:39 Nice, juicy drama? 16:41:41 the mermaid thing? 16:41:49 merfolk rights 16:42:51 I replied there! The post I made (a two-liner ending with a corny "Gameplay > Interface > Flavour > Political Correctness") netted me the most thanks I ever got... a dubious prize. 16:43:02 yeah but ##crawl-dev got shitted up 16:43:16 oh my ... do you have a link? 16:43:28 http://pastebin.com/r9RE3bMs 16:44:06 I like how it's pulled up that it's only in European culture that mermaids have something to do with alluring. 16:44:21 Because it's almost like this game doesn't pull a lot of European stuff in. 16:44:29 minmay: I don't fully understand. Is the point that level 9 spells are red herrings (even dangerous ones) in 3-rune games? That would be problematic. If they're useful sometimes, but way less often than people think, I'd be fine with that. 16:44:31 -!- xFleury has joined ##crawl-dev 16:44:57 dpeg: I linked that post because I thought you would be amused by seeing how much of an idiot tiktacy is 16:44:59 Bloax: we have lots of classical sources in the game 16:45:06 minmay: ah, okay then :) 16:45:14 dpeg: but to answer the question, I do not think level 9 spells are useful, no 16:45:20 never? 16:45:50 I could follow him less in that thread than I can elsewhere (and there it's already hard for me). 16:46:17 Okay, I believe it is safe to say that the eel pathfind bug has nothing to do with anything I did 16:46:23 Seeing as it appears to be present in 0.10 16:46:27 dpeg: I suppose I might support getting shatter or tornado on DD/Te of vehumet, respectively, but otherwise I find it very hard to imagine circumstances where they are actually a good idea 16:46:43 Level 9 spells are good. 16:46:47 (and also very hard to imagine circumstances where DD of vehumet would be a good idea) 16:46:48 in those games when you find the right tools 16:46:59 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:47:01 level 9 spells are good in games that are already over, maybe 16:47:04 (and that's not reliable advice so yeah) 16:47:37 minmay: So apparently by 'eels move away from you now', they've been doing that for several years :P 16:47:48 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:47:49 It's just the circumstances to trigger it are somewhat particular 16:47:58 DracoOmega: hey I didn't specify the time period for "now"!!!!! 16:48:02 Haha 16:49:23 -!- Sky____ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:50:13 anyway I don't think you can reasonably make level 9 spells more useful without changing spell success a lot (I think the same thing about level 8 spells by the way, except maybe borgnjor's/ddoor because they are ridiculous) 16:50:24 yeh, I think I first noticed it in 0.12a sometime 16:51:14 also stuff like an orc in a crowd will move around, not to escape melee range (like an orc warrior moving from j to l position randomly) 16:51:26 I think that's something seperate 16:51:41 I really dislike working with monster movement code, and yet I seem to keep having to, somehow ^^; 16:52:00 I imagine. have not looked, only heard about it 16:52:01 There's always mysterious and hard to track down quirks 16:52:21 and rather than assuming malice like many people I just assumed quirks, yeh 16:52:27 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:53:05 geekosaur: I believe that was introduced by the "pack AI" which I think was 0.6 16:53:09 I know it's spaghetti, I assume lots of unintended behavior falls out of "simple" changes 16:53:14 where monsters in packs tend to shuffle around a bunch 16:53:20 because they want to stay in the pack 16:53:38 it's why yaks are effectively like speed 7 when you're running away from them 16:54:52 Yes, it's fairly spaghetti-like 16:55:16 And very hard to trace what happens where, since there are often like 3 different functions that check overlapping (but not identical) things, called in non-apprent orders and sometimes ignored 16:55:28 hm, hadn't noticed the pack behavior but it can be hard to tell when you're surrounded by 7 of the same monster at similar health >.> 16:55:37 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:49 <|amethyst> http://s-z.org/neil/tmp/0001-Remove-L9-spells-from-books.patch http://s-z.org/neil/tmp/0002-Remove-most-L8-spells-from-books-as-well.patch 16:55:56 (well, not surrounded, but nearby pack. I try hard to avoid being surrounded...) 16:56:05 There's also code that claims it prevents things that happen all the time 16:56:08 So it's obviously not working :P 16:56:17 And who knows when it last did (if ever?) 16:57:13 minmay: thanks for explanation. It's nothing I will tend to. (Not about gods, and I don't do extended games at all.) 16:57:51 Bloax: nice juicy drama, indeed. I wonder whether there's a noticeable America vs Europe divide on that topic. 16:58:33 I wouldn't be surprised if it was. 16:58:55 there was* zzz 16:59:33 -!- Turgon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:59:34 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:56 -!- stickyfingers has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:01:32 !seen MarvinPA 17:01:32 I last saw MarvinPA at Sat Mar 8 18:51:57 2014 UTC (4h 9m 35s ago) saying 'TZer0: maybe send a pm to grimm, he might not have spotted the thread' on ##crawl-dev. 17:04:12 Okay, I think I give up on trying to figure out how exactly this got broken 17:04:36 I've gone back several years on the most obviously-related sections and they don't seem to have changed much, so the trigger is probably somewhere else. Maybe irrelevant. 17:06:20 DracoOmega: the bug turns into an insubstantial wisp. 17:07:05 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:45 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09:00 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:09:16 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.14-a0-3154-g428849b (34) 17:09:23 -!- Fengor_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:09:47 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 17:10:14 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 17:10:38 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:42 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 17:13:29 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 17:13:49 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:15:11 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:15:19 -!- eoc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:16:45 -!- eoc has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:17:34 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:18:27 -!- AreBrandon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:20:08 -!- Somefellow has joined ##crawl-dev 17:20:27 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:21:50 -!- jeffro has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:22:38 |amethyst: that looks good to me except I would also remove borgnjor's and ddoor (for very different reasons) 17:23:10 (I am assuming this would be done alongside the patch to remove ziggurats of course) 17:25:24 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:25:45 -!- Sky____ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:25:46 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 17:27:52 * dpeg is not convinced minmay should become official DCSS devteam adviser. 17:30:34 yes I would not actually suggest removing those spells from crawl because presumably you intend to keep extended in the game 17:32:28 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:34:35 devteam coach 17:35:16 BlastHardcheese: More like an expert consultant. 17:35:45 -!- |amethyst has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:36:24 reminds me of Twitch's "volunteer admins" lol 17:37:21 come on, he asked :P 17:39:11 minmay: it's alright -- thanks for link and explanation 17:40:42 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 17:42:57 -!- nimbus00 has quit [Client Quit] 17:43:00 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 17:43:33 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:43:39 -!- rast- is now known as rast 17:43:59 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:47:20 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:57:07 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:05:20 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 18:05:54 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 18:07:51 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 18:08:07 -!- jmbto has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 18:08:28 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 18:12:49 -!- pelotron_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:14:57 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 18:19:00 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 18:21:28 -!- Kraito has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:35:35 -!- kingbuddyboy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:36:45 -!- Psyknux has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:36:49 -!- GoblinBomb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:40:38 -!- icantfindaname has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:42:58 -!- AreBrandon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:06 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 18:54:18 Can anyone help me out and list how many deaths (in 0.13 say) were from constriction? 18:55:18 dpeg: I don't think crate meant that constriction does 0 damage 18:55:25 !lg * 0.13 status=constricted 18:55:27 474. Rexozord the Carver (L11 MiFi of Okawaru), blasted by a naga (wand of cold) (kmap: minmay_snake_entry_guardpost_large) on Lair:4 on 2014-03-09 00:45:52, with 15321 points after 12169 turns and 1:24:21. 18:55:44 that's the number of deaths while constricted 18:55:45 well i did lie about one thing; constriction definitely kills people who dont understand how it works 18:55:56 i dont think this is a good thing though 18:55:57 !lg * 0.13 killer=worm 18:56:00 2043. Phuka the Charmwright (L2 DgSk), slain by a worm on D:2 on 2014-03-09 00:49:03, with 65 points after 1237 turns and 0:06:06. 18:56:04 is this a roguelike 18:56:09 i feel like its pretty similar to that 18:56:21 I don't think it's a roguelike anymore 18:56:32 also anacondas getting kills while constricting a player doesnt mean that constriction necessarily had anything to do with it 18:56:36 since they are anacondas 18:56:44 crate: what I really dislike is this kind of feedback without context 18:56:55 !lg * 0.13 status=constricted s=ckiller 18:56:57 474 games for * (0.13 status=constricted): 154x a ball python, 29x a naga warrior, 27x Lamia, 25x a tentacled starspawn, 22x a greater naga, 18x a naga, 15x an adder, 13x an anaconda, 13x a tentacled monstrosity, 12x quitting, 8x a gnoll, 8x a hobgoblin, 7x a kobold, 6x a giant frog, 5x a goblin, 5x an octopode, 4x an ogre, 4x a large abomination, 3x a worker ant, 3x a starcursed mass, 3x a quokka... 18:57:04 heh that's a lot of ball pythons 18:57:05 rip lamia 18:57:09 crate: what do you expect me to do when I read it: tell the devteam "constriction was a blunder, please revert, sorry"? 18:57:10 I think we should make qw official and then let people step in whenever they find something they want to play 18:57:11 Constriction has certainly been a big factor in fights with, say a tmons 18:57:20 i dont agree gammafunk 18:57:29 not surprised, crate 18:57:38 if you want me to elaborate i could do that later 18:57:39 I haven't ever found constriction on tmons to be meaningful in my games 18:57:44 but I think being not able to escape is a big deal 18:57:46 i think constriction is not that dangerous in and of itself 18:57:49 well the thing is 18:57:50 elliptic: thank you 18:57:52 because with how tiresomely reductionist and optimizing people are I don't think they want to play crawl 18:57:54 gammafunk: constriction does not prevent you from escaping 18:57:54 constriction actually makes it easier to escape 18:57:56 in conjunction with other monsters, it can be dangerous 18:57:57 if you know how it works 18:58:01 but just say why not playing is good 18:58:08 it doesn't completely prevent it, no 18:58:12 it's very fun not to play! 18:58:37 gammafunk: well ok, constriction doesn't make it more difficult to escape either 18:58:51 it gives you a free spae 18:58:53 space* 18:58:57 how is that possibly making it harder lol 18:59:03 hooray randomized energy 18:59:29 I guess it could make it harder if you play nothing but spriggans, since then it would actually take time to escape? but I don't know why you would be getting constricted by these monsters in the first place 18:59:32 I think it's a given that it makes it harder to escape, considering that there's code specifically to do that 19:00:06 gammafunk: there is also code that means that when you successfully step away from constriction, the monster is stunned for a turn 19:00:07 you try to blink away, you might not be able to; you try to move away, the move might not work 19:00:16 if we're going to continue to theorycraft I'd like to know what happens when there is more then one monster fighting the player 19:00:21 what elliptic said yes 19:00:23 it is surely very exciting 19:00:28 yes, constriction with multiple monsters around can be interesting i think 19:00:32 tenofswords: the same thing that happens when there is more than one monster fighting the player and constriction is not involved 19:00:33 or at least meaningfully dangerous 19:00:34 it is actually much easier to walk away from a tmons that is already next to you than an orc that is next to you 19:00:35 not possible, mind you, but fun to imagine 19:00:35 crate: the other thing that I don't like about reactions like those in the forum thread (minmay generally is very similar) is to state something very bluntly, and not even indicating how features could be improved 19:00:44 elliptic: is that bad code, in your view? 19:00:58 makes me wonder if your goal is to prove Crawl's inferiority, or to improve the game 19:01:00 dpeg: I think that particular post pretty clearly implies that it could be improved by removing constriction from monsters 19:01:02 well personally i dont really see why constriction should be salvaged 19:01:07 since i think it is not a good idea to begin with 19:01:15 but like i said i can elaborate later 19:01:24 i will not do so now because i am doing other things 19:01:25 dpeg: you can disagree with that but it seems to me like it's pretty obvious the post is saying that 19:01:32 i have yet to encounter a crusher, but i agree with the general thesis of the post that it feels like many of the recent improvements are quite anti-melee 19:01:55 need to block playing crawl online unless you can prove you can play perfectly 19:01:56 reliably, forever 19:01:56 and that melee is generally the most fun aspect of the game (that is more subjective i think) 19:01:56 gammafunk: I think that having some protection against being instantly reconstricted is a good thing; there might be better ways of doing it though (like a small period of time during which that monster can't constrict anything) 19:01:56 -!- Zilis has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:02:14 elliptic: yeah, something like that could make sense 19:02:21 minmay: I know that you would like to cut all kinds of things. That makes me wonder why you play Crawl in the first place (and this is not meant as an attempt at humour, I am serious). 19:02:21 btw the fact that constriction kills players seems to be entirely beside the point to me (in the same way that comments on v:5 being "too hard" after the original change were completely off-base) 19:02:25 -!- Zilis has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:28 internet sociopathy is just boring, regardless of trying to put fangs on it 19:03:04 dpeg: the same reason I don't commit suicide. there are many aspects of life I dislike but overall experiencing it seems better than not experiencing it 19:03:21 hug me minmay 19:03:29 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:03:32 minmay: that is good... but I have the feeling you could help make the game much better with a slightly more positive approach 19:03:36 dpeg: telling me to stop playing because I dislike some aspect of the game seems like about the most dismissive thing you could do in this context, and I find it a little disappointing 19:03:40 -!- Fhqwhgads__ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 19:03:50 entitled internet sociopathy is even more boring 19:03:53 well you dont get comments on the things that players like (at least not in the same way) because there is not a desire to see those things changed 19:04:11 I do agree that constriction doesn't work very well on tmons, but I think it can sometimes be interesting on naga packs 19:04:15 i don't know, i felt like there's been a lot of positive comments on e.g. the summoner change 19:04:19 -!- Moredread has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:04:19 yes, if "positive" means "talk about the things that are already okay" then there's a very good reason for that, it doesnt accomplish anything 19:04:23 I don't want to tell you that! I want to understand (for reals!) why you keep playing the game when there are so many things that are obviously dysfunctional in your opinion. Now I know. 19:04:28 I'm also not sure exactly how different it is from extra damage on anacondas 19:04:45 I do not think constriction is interesting on naga packs since they are slow 19:05:03 what happened to haste other and blink_allies_encircling 19:05:06 minmay: positive = single out things that don't work well, and try to find an improvement beyond "remove feature" 19:05:18 in fact I would say that is about the worst possible design place for constriction (since it does something if it happens, sometimes, but you can easily prevent it from happening, but it is annoying to do so for many characters) 19:05:30 well in a lot of cases minmay's point is that the entire idea behind said feature is a thing that is not an idea that makes the game better 19:05:34 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 19:05:39 it isn't very interesting in corridors usually, but if you are not in a corridor and want to walk next to nagas with other monsters around then it can do something 19:05:52 dpeg: well I already do the first part, but I admit to generally preferring removal - because I think crawl has far too many features 19:06:32 elliptic: to be clear my complaints with naga pack constriction are that 1. it is on their melee attacks and 2. they are slow 19:06:56 like if nagas were speed 11 and threw constricting nets, my thinking would be a lot different definitely 19:07:09 elliptic: why don't you like constrict on normal speed enemies? the lack of cool-down? 19:07:21 i dont think it works as a melee effect 19:07:32 gammafunk: well, specifically I don't like it on tmons because they don't have anything except simple non-reaching melee 19:07:43 you see, I thought that everyone here understands that things are in a flow: if we realise that constriction (as a tool to inhibit escape, including teleport and blinking) but not well suited on nagas, then we can give it someone else, perhaps a normal speed blinking monsters 19:07:46 gammafunk: I don't like constrict on normal melee enemies because you can avoid it by not meleeing them 19:07:51 In a similar vein, I like the new barbs effect. 19:08:03 on nagas they at least often have polearms or other ranged attacks to motivate you to want to enter melee range 19:08:09 barbs is kind of what constriction wishes it were 19:08:11 minmay: same applies to weapon brands 19:08:17 since it's ranged 19:08:26 crate: minus the effect on teleport/blink? 19:08:27 gammafunk: yes, I also strongly dislike monster distortion 19:08:29 haha, i'm not at all convinced about barbs 19:08:41 i tend to forget tele/blink are things that exist 19:08:41 and attack flavours like rot and corrosion with strategic effects 19:08:42 so 19:08:50 crate: barbs also doesn't do damage unless you actually move though, so it is more like hold 19:08:55 yes, but there are other brands; distort is the extreme case, and the player can't always easilly resist a brand they can encounter 19:08:57 I bring it up precusely because I got the impression that you were angling in that direction, crate 19:09:03 you know, I could point at the code here about how every naga band has a classed naga and two of those have haste 19:09:07 i actually find barbs neat 19:09:22 constrict on fast melee things isnt interesting to me either though 19:09:24 do barbs go away if you're fighting but not moving? 19:09:33 i just plain dont see the point of it as a melee effecdt 19:09:41 are moving and taking a lot of damage or resting your only options? 19:09:49 anyway, some of you are really good players, but when I see these one-line dismissals of entire concepts, I ignore them completely... there is no way I would start developing the game based on your opinions, and if you are too lazy to provide context, then that's always a lost opportunity for improvement (which in the end could be removal) 19:09:54 ackack: yes 19:09:57 ackack: they go away without resting, but more slowly 19:09:58 gammafunk: those other brands attack your HP, a flaming weapon on an orc is not dangerous if you are fighting that orc in vaults 19:10:07 Oh, my mistake 19:10:07 ackack: No 19:10:18 gammafunk: but an orc with a distortion weapon is something you dont want to hit you no matter where you are, so you end up using ranged attacks against it 19:10:20 how is constriction on a fast monster not attacking your hp 19:10:43 tenofswords, how is introducing a completely new mechanic to do something that other, pre-existing mechanics do, a good thing 19:10:52 new 19:11:02 constriction on anaconda doesn't really feel different to me from a bit of extra damage, because anaconda is doing enough normal damage that it will kill you with that before the constriction damage increases to be especially noticeable 19:11:05 gammafunk: (probably a more apt comparison is necrophage vs. a monster that does high melee damage) 19:11:08 if you're in vaults, you can probably deal with abyss ok 19:11:11 maybe not rune ok 19:11:11 and you can't really avoid constriction because it is fast 19:11:14 well i am coming at this from the idea that constriction is not a thing and you are considering adding it 19:11:15 gammafunk: (for distortion, not for constriction) 19:11:17 but survival/escape ok 19:11:32 you could of course choose to keep constriction but remove e.g. brands instead 19:11:36 dpeg ... 19:11:40 but i was assuming that wasnt on the table 19:11:45 nothing is, really 19:11:51 and it's a waste of time to assume otherwise 19:11:57 -!- tenofswords has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:12:02 Two things. When Should I tavern the thing and...I actually had another idea that may or may not be reasonable. 19:12:03 very helpful thanks 19:12:05 ... 19:12:05 minmay: I think your argument, if it's valid, would also dislike flaming/elec/freezing/drain since there are situations in the game when you encounter those and they're a problem 19:12:16 perhaps the threshold of what's considered different is highly variant among us 19:12:31 gammafunk: in those cases (except for drain which I also dislike) they are dangerous because they do damage 19:12:37 * Grunt assembles himself! Ashenzari warns you: He is. 19:12:44 Bcadren: tavern: can you wait until tomorrow? the other one: email... short on time right now 19:12:55 gammafunk: flaming doesn't banish you, and if distortion didn't, I'd have no problem with it 19:13:21 gammafunk: er also, my complaint about slow monsters is that they are never a problem 19:13:25 minmay: ...but distort and blink you or teleport you, and you dislike throwing because of the positioning aspect 19:13:34 s/and/can/ 19:13:46 dpeg: you were looking for me earlier? 19:14:06 Grunt: yes, because of Dith stuff. Not really urgent 19:14:06 gammafunk: well yes, I was simplifying, I also don't like distortion teleporting you 19:14:11 (as a brand) 19:14:23 i dont like effects that reposition the player, for what that's worth 19:14:29 so... you like the damage on distortion? 19:14:29 yes 19:14:34 and especially not on easily avoidable melee attacks 19:14:36 tele other is kind of ok 19:14:47 Grunt: yes, because of Dith stuff. Not really urgent 19:14:48 this is the entire problem I am trying to express 19:15:00 (dpeg's shadow mimics dpeg's speech!) 19:15:03 minmay: I think, like what dpeg was saying, is that there's a wider range of views as to what consitites interesting challenges one experiences while meleeing 19:15:07 ah, blammo :) 19:15:09 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 19:15:12 -!- DracheReborn has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:15:15 Other thing was just a central concept that might befit a god. The ability to evoke anything. Weapon evokes would be attack magic based on brand, etc. Would only use Evo, not Invo, like Neme, but otherwise be all about, letting you evoke everything, not giving you extra invokeables or helping you with things you can already evoke... 19:15:26 gammafunk: the problem is that optimal play here is nearly always to not melee the monster at all 19:15:36 gammafunk: and to just use ranged attacks instead 19:15:57 It would also help if players like crate and minmay were able to express *how lean* they want to game to be. From what I say, it seems clear to me that this is never gonna happen. Knowing this could spare us a lot of trouble. 19:16:13 ??crate_crawl 19:16:13 crate crawl[1/2]: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8705 update for .14: get the silver rune then leave, no entering depths/crypt/forest/elf 19:16:35 elliptic: ah, I didn't know. 19:16:35 i do not think you should lump me in with minmay there 19:16:40 he wants much more removal than i do 19:16:46 Are we calling optimal here, "if you had any choice of attack, what would you use on it"? 19:17:07 minmay: It sounds like you think there should be no situations that are always optimally handled with ranged attacks. Is that right? 19:17:16 Example like: Evoke Sword of Holy Wrath; use Sun Ray, the word is temporarily weakened and not evocable again for several turns. 19:17:20 Lasty: yes, or at least no monsters that are 19:17:27 crate: I respect that, but I think it means that communication about CRawl design between us is possible, but will almost never lead to actual changes (as far as I am concerned). We can have polite discussions, but design visions seem to be extremely far apart. 19:17:29 Lasty: would you consider a monster that reflected all ranged attacks to be interesting? 19:17:40 well many of the things i want changed i specifically do not bring up 19:17:48 minmay: honestly, yes 19:17:50 and then you ask for my opinion and throw "it's not going to happen" at me afterward 19:17:53 uh...okay then 19:17:59 do you understand how this frustrates me? 19:17:59 minmay: unless they were everywhere 19:18:36 mimay: I like monsters that force a change of approach 19:18:41 *minmay 19:18:43 gammafunk: any character has ranged attacks that can kill a necrophage 19:18:43 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 19:18:56 Crawl is a huge monster of a game, and we *are* making it smaller (in one sense of gthe word at least) for years now. I am sure it never reach the neat, reduced state some of you seem to like it obtain. However, that goal could be interesting ==> forking time?! 19:19:12 Lasty: I suppose that's the big difference here...I don't like it when I'm forced into using one specific tactic 19:19:20 Lasty: since there is no decision in that case 19:19:31 dpeg: Isn't that what Crawl Light is for? 19:19:43 minmay: I see what you mean. 19:19:57 i don't really have a problem with a fairly limited set of special things that you need to have some plan for 19:20:08 well for one, the rot effect of a necrophage isn't very comparable to "get repositioned and take some extra damage" 19:20:08 like it feels like at times i have specifically been asked for my opinion on a thing i have purposely not brought up (because I know the changes I would ideally like to see are not going to happen) 19:20:19 and then after i do so i hear "ok thanks but we're not going to do that" 19:20:27 crate: I wouldn't have asked you if I had known before. I understand how this frustrates you, and I apologise. Will not happen again. 19:20:34 When talking about shorter; I think making branches or the main dungeon shorter (fewer levels) and making XP raise more quickly to compensate is reasonable, but bulk removing content...NAH! 19:20:47 minmay: I agree that no monsters should only allow one tactic, but even reflecting all ranged would allow melee or summons . . . 19:20:55 dpeg: if you're really curious about what my "goal" would be: take crate_crawl and also get rid of lair and replace the item system with something similar that didn't involve encumbrance/slots/destruction/etc, and you'd be most of the way there 19:21:02 when i give actual feedback i try to keep it to things that i feel have a chance of happening 19:21:07 dpeg: this is obviously not something I am pursuing for DCSS! 19:21:18 Bcadren: we're making branches shorter since 0.3 or so :) 19:21:45 dpeg: also, I'd prefer if you didn't drag in tavern/##crawl stuff that *isn't even addressed to you or the devteam* 19:21:54 dpeg I'd actually like to see more branches, but at the same time...making the game longer gets silly. 19:22:00 minmay: yes, and I can see how that would be interesting (really!). It's just something that seems to be so far out of the DCSS scope, that's fork material, not vanilla stuff. 19:22:11 Bcadren: this is why I suggested the branch roulette. 19:22:14 dpeg: which is why *i have never, and never will, attempt to get vanilla DCSS to do any of it* 19:22:18 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:22:34 dpeg: I do think there are some areas of crawl in which we are really failing at making crawl smaller - number of distinct monsters in the game, for instance 19:22:42 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22:48 minmay: if I stay yout of ##crawl, do you stay out of ##crawl-dev? 19:22:49 I'd like to see 3 heavens that might replace the hells and have different challenges... 19:22:59 elliptic: yes, I agree 19:23:04 dpeg: ??? I'm not asking you to stay out of ##crawl 19:23:26 (obviously not everyone agrees that number of distinct monsters increasing is bad!) 19:23:28 somewhat on topic: what does the dev team think about the power curve that happens from dungeon/it's lair branches to things like vaults and depths 19:23:31 dpeg: I just dislike these personal attacks on things I've said that aren't even in the context of DCSS development 19:23:32 elliptic: but I also think that after an explosion (like we have with monsters now, or had with vaults earlier), there will be a time of reconsideration and removals 19:23:51 what i get concerned about is that the removals are likely to be the older, plainer stuff 19:23:53 elliptic: as long as I could examine them ingame and get to know everything about them I would be happier to get even more monsters 19:24:01 but right now, I have to check wiki for spells 19:24:04 dpeg: this hasn't happened in the past... I don't have the numbers at my fingertips, but the number of monsters just keeps going up 19:24:04 and that annoys me :( 19:24:08 just because the more recent stuff is likely to have more ardent (and present) defenders 19:24:14 TZer0: you can see spell lists in game nowadays... 19:24:20 minmay: I only came to ##crawl in order to look for dck. Just said something because I realised again how strongly you are affected the public discourse. 19:24:22 oh? 19:24:23 hmm 19:24:23 (you might not know what the spells do, though) 19:24:40 Yeah, that's a problem 19:24:44 i like vaults a lot, and i think a lot of what makes vaults work is that the special vaults monsters are a pretty small part of it 19:24:54 I really like all changes which make the game more playable on its own without a wiki 19:25:14 elliptic: but it has happened to vaults. I am not saying it comes for free! Perhaps we have to sit down and say, "let's have a full monster revision for this version" 19:25:19 as the density of "interesting" monsters goes up, i feel like it just gets very sloggy. i realize this opinion may not be widely shared (i'm actually curious how many people share it) 19:25:20 -!- AreBrandon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:23 dpeg: you misunderstand, what I dislike is using stuff I say on ##crawl/tavern against me in -dev 19:25:37 since I am usually not talking about DCSS development on either of those 19:25:51 minmay: ah, I see. This is confusing for me. 19:25:54 dpeg: I don't remember it happening to vaults 19:26:06 minmay: is not your tavern post not explicitly related to dcss development 19:26:13 dpeg: (since they are not official development channels) 19:26:17 elliptic: the absolute numbers didn't go down, but quality standards increased and bad vaults have been purged. 19:26:19 uh, strike the second not 19:26:41 oh, you mean vaults, not vaults the branch 19:26:49 wheals: some of them are! but...it's tavern so I have to use a very different tone than I do here 19:26:50 well i definitely treat tavern quite a lot differently than i treat ##crawl-dev 19:26:57 I see proliferation of types of monsters as very very different from number of vaults 19:26:59 ok that's fair 19:27:03 and i think in a pretty similar way to how minmay does 19:27:11 I try very hard not to be "snippy" in ##crawl-dev 19:27:16 elliptic: What are the general guidelines in your view for reducing the monster list? 19:27:20 (i am saying this as i'm about to push something based on what you've said) 19:27:35 I guess that'd be my concern; are there some unifyign things that can help build a consensus on that 19:27:52 most of the talking I do in ##crawl and tavern is with other crawl players so I'm not going to be using the same standards 19:27:55 elliptic: oh yes! Sorry 19:28:04 (Linley's to blame for that one) 19:28:28 It's hard when there are such a range of views as to what constitutes interesting 19:28:32 Heavens could be harmed by poison and necromancy, but not fire/ice as easily, basically... 19:29:04 elliptic: I am not saying it's the same thing... just that with time standards rise, and this has consequences. 19:29:05 gammafunk: I'm not sure; I'm not even sure I think there being a greater number of distinct monsters is necessarily a bad thing, but it does make crawl more complicated to play for sure 19:29:22 And yes, we've never ever discussed how much variance we want from our monster sets. This should happen. 19:29:36 on an even more basic level, what should the flow of a dcss game look like? 19:29:42 Complicated is better. 19:29:45 dpeg: perhaps would make the glyph overahul easier in the end :p 19:29:55 s/overahul/overhaul/ 19:29:58 A bunch of enemies that you can just killdudes in the same manner is dull... 19:30:03 -!- Watball has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:30:29 a lot of the changes suggest to me that people want a higher percentage of encounters to be notable 19:30:34 ackack: there is no universal answer, of course, because it's subjective and there will be 34 opinions with 34 devs. But we should try to find an answer, just like the design philosophy statement sets some (more global) thinks. 19:30:38 *things 19:30:44 sure 19:30:57 Which one of the common complains about the late/post game...everything resists tons of things, meaning you have to be ready with specific things before going to hell, because your Necro, your Poison, etc. does nothing. 19:31:30 I think the new monsters have all had a "new mechanic" rather than using existing ones, for the most part and for various levels of "new" 19:31:47 Bcadren: a more frequent complaint (imo) is how new features break the autoexplore/autofight flow. We really need to discuss this: how much attention can a standard (i.e. non-unique) monster expect? 19:32:04 So I'd agree the devs are thinking about how to make each added monster sufficiently different from what already exists 19:32:19 Autoexplore/Autofight is the dullest part of playing. 19:32:25 gammafunk: yeah, I have to say that this is a feature of the new monsters that I personally dislike a lot 19:32:41 if a mechanic is good design, why not use it on multiple monsters? 19:32:45 elliptic: but you never said so! :( 19:32:47 gammafunk: my issue with new monsters was not redundancy but that the increase in different monsters leads to the game taking longer to learn 19:32:48 I have said this... 19:33:04 I mean, Big Fish, Shark and Giant Goldfish are like...same damn thing with different Hit Dice...that is dull... 19:33:10 elliptic: here? (This is part of the problem: lots of ##crawl-dev talk goes unnoticed) 19:33:13 gammafunk: redundancy is what I use to complain about existing monsters :P 19:33:48 Well I think like dpeg is saying, we do have to be sensitive to the "cognitive load" we're imposing with each new mechanic 19:33:54 exactly 19:34:08 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 19:34:31 this is why I am a friend of mechanics (and I think that features specific to a single monster often could be better used on a unique) 19:35:04 sorry, why you're a friend of mechanics? 19:35:12 but the only mechanic I contributed was constriction (with at best mixed success, as you could all see), and the other one *is* monster specific (slime creatures) 19:35:24 it's not just cognitive load in terms of learning, it's also how things play 19:35:36 in principle big synergistic teams of monsters sound kinda fun 19:35:49 I think engaging monsters are better than encouraging more autoplay. 19:35:50 in practice you usually just compartmentalize them without really changing much actual danger 19:35:53 it just takes quite a bit more time 19:35:54 gammafunk: like constriction: because we can have easy monsters which introduce the mechanic in the early game (hopefully making that a little more interesting), and the re-use it and combine it with other mechanics later on 19:35:56 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 19:35:56 basically, instead of 50+ different mechanics/spells/features on 50 monsters, I feel like we should use the 10 best and have each one appear on multiple monsters (that appear in different contexts in the game) 19:36:11 In the case of the throwing ability that lead minmay to make the thread, I think there's not a lot of cognitive load there (obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have made it) 19:36:20 And I had intended to give it to some other giant monster 19:36:25 elliptic: I think I agree with this 19:36:29 (the iron giant) 19:36:33 (so that I can use this vault work) 19:36:35 (<_<) 19:36:43 gammafunk: that would make sense, but it would also work well on a unique 19:36:48 (the iron giant!) 19:36:58 why do you want to encourage autoplay? Isn't the point of a turn based game to maximize the amount of important decisions the player makes? 19:37:05 But when the walls fell. 19:37:18 elliptic: however, both approaches could probably lead to decent games, so we should try to make up our minds about what we want 19:37:38 as I said: never been properly discussed (or maybe it has, and I wasn't around or have forgotten... I am old :) 19:37:52 yeah, on that point it's not even just crushers; a lot of the new monsters have this issue 19:38:09 I think there needs to be more engaging monsters and less autoplay circumstances, but when enemies are unique and engaging, we need to be more sure than normal that players have the abilities they need to defeat them. 19:38:30 and it's hard to see how many would survive if we did reduce the monster mechanics drastically 19:38:40 I mean, I fully understand why most new monsters have one or more spells/abilities that only appear on that monster: it is because people want new monsters to be exciting and... new 19:38:41 the autoplay features were one of the most attractive things about taking up crawl 19:38:49 utrick: it is one of the complaints that is sometimes hold up against new mechanics... not saying we have to buy into this, but the question stands: do we expect a player to roll over a standard denizen of Orc or Swamp, or do we want them to take every encounter slowly. Again, there is no best answer, we have to make one for our game ourselves. 19:38:50 and because we have lots of creative people churning out ideas 19:39:11 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:30 did i miss something? i dont think anyone has suggested anything that would "encourage more autoplay" 19:40:06 Here is my personal opinion: I am absolutely fine with uniques completely disrupting my flow (both physically, I slow down and take my time, and in the game: I may go somewhere else). I am not sure I want this on average monsters. 19:40:27 crate: not in here, which speaks a lot for ##crawl-dev 19:40:40 dpeg: not unreasonable, but it presents a lot of problems for the new branch monster sets 19:41:14 gammafunk: I am only one guy, and discussion has just started. :) 19:41:22 ok ok :) 19:41:44 He's one guy, but he's *dpeg* 19:42:02 as a neutral party in this, I would like to say that the one game I played in which I ran into crushers I never got thrown by them or even constricted 19:42:09 -!- ac13 has quit [Quit: ac13] 19:42:23 Lightli: what species were you? 19:42:36 Centaur, but I was attacking them in melee with a demon trident 19:42:44 op can't constrict centaurs 19:42:44 gammafunk: I don't want any special treatment (because so often I have no clue -- I am happy that people listen to me). Okay, maybe I want special treatment when it comes to gods. But definitely not for monsters. 19:42:46 oh 19:42:58 Would a branch where enemies bulk heal each other frequently be interesting? 19:43:04 this isn't really a conversation about crushers, or at least I haven't actually seen them in-game and only vaguely know what they do, and I'd imagine this is true of other people here too since they are new :) 19:43:12 indeed 19:43:15 this is much broader 19:43:24 all I know is that if they constrict you they can throw you away like that one enemy in super mario 64 19:43:25 i dont care about octopode crushers specifically at all since they apparently don't appear in crate_crawl :p 19:43:35 * dpeg wonders if he can coerce elliptic into writing a first mail to crd on the matter. (I would reply!) 19:43:39 yeah, they were only a trigger of this; sirens are another thing players have strong opinions on 19:43:57 crate: I just added them to crate crawl, sorry 19:43:57 I think the distinction in autplay needs to be made between autofight and autoexplore. Pressing tab to win the game obviously (at least imo) doesn't make a great game 19:43:59 oh 19:44:16 gammafunk: uh to be 100% clear that thread was not about adding new monsters 19:44:20 however "press o to encounter next challenge/puzzle/whatever" is interesting 19:44:30 gammafunk: Sirens are extremely overloaded with emotion now (for example, I'd defend them very loudly because they feature in the Odysee, better take another exmaple) 19:44:54 i liked sirens before they got changed 19:44:57 i dont think i like them any more 19:44:58 minmay: sure, it was connected to the addition of new monsters that in your view are increasing this "anti-melee" trend 19:45:14 *, however (at the end of that) 19:45:53 gammafunk: (I wanted to cite ranged AI, but figured that was going back too far for people to remember) 19:46:18 crate: your opinion is relevant, but only context can help (what was good before, was makes them annoying now). It's obvious to you but not to the audience. (Don't feel pressured into actually replying... just pointing out actually the same thing as on the forum about constriction happened here) 19:46:30 yes 19:46:31 well, I was thinking as I was listening to your argument that you must not like ranged enemies very much 19:47:24 gammafunk: there are lots of ranged enemies I like, ranged enemies that move away from you is a good example of something I don't like, though 19:47:29 it's not the enemies being ranged enemies that's the problem, it's that ranged ai is pretty weird and doesn't work well on speed-10 monsters 19:47:46 (i dont know what i think about ranged ai on centaurs, but i definitely dislike it on yaktaurs) 19:48:07 -!- Moanerette has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:48:46 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:49:23 03wheals02 07* 0.14-a0-3155-g15be66f: Make all abyss teleports shift the Abyss (minmay). 10(59 minutes ago, 18 files, 24+ 72-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=15be66f72648 19:49:39 dpeg: Well, maybe we can just start discussion on crd and put "decide how or if to resolve the growing monster list and monster mechanic situation" for after 0.14 tournament 19:49:54 gammafunk: oh, this is definitely nothing shortterm 19:50:13 wheals: did you just credit me for a suggestion i made in like 2010 19:50:16 ??annilations 19:50:16 I don't have a page labeled annilations in my learndb. Did you mean: annihilations, annihilated. 19:50:18 yes 19:50:22 ??book of annilations 19:50:23 book of annilations ~ book of annihilations[1/1]: Poison Arrow, Chain Lightning, Lehudib's Crystal Spear, Ice Storm, Fire Storm - Requires 6 spellcasting and 10 conjurations to memorize spells out of this book. 19:50:25 i'm surprised it was still on the devwiki 19:50:26 I was not thinking about any sudden changes to monsters ...way too error prone. 19:50:40 i'm a passive-agressive creditor 19:50:54 <3 19:51:04 imo find a suggestion in a deleted tavern post, and credit that 19:51:38 find some guy who posted in 4chan using wayback machine 19:52:38 gammafunk: of course we can start here. But (a) it's a topic that affects almost every dev (so it shouldn't stay at IRC) and (b) there is no objective best (so we're better off trying to find a design goal among the dozen or so devs who speak up than on the ... wider and louder IRC community). 19:52:57 gammafunk: I think that some starts have been made already, for example by elliptic. 19:52:57 -!- schistosomatic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:01 yes 19:53:09 also, and this is a terrible time to bring this up 19:53:12 I'm with dpeg here; this seems pretty important to how crawl development will go in the future 19:53:14 http://sprunge.us/BSXN from grunt 19:53:17 * Grunt hides. 19:53:26 (This wasn't exactly a serious suggestion! >_>) 19:53:39 ok, now he's backing off, so... 19:53:58 He hides in dith's shadows sometimes, and is hard to pin down. 19:54:06 * Grunt steps into dpeg's shadow. 19:54:22 Lightli: I think the post-tournament reprieve might be a good opportunity to get down with this. 19:54:43 (And there go my chances to sneak in a quick chunk-no-eating at that time.) 19:54:47 gammafunk: I'm against this, because it increases the chance of Nellie getting added to depths in the future 19:55:04 why would Nellie get added to depths 19:55:14 1learn add minmay I'm against this 19:55:42 Lightli: well there are already at least two depths vaults with hellephants 19:55:46 !vault uniq_nellie 19:55:46 Couldn't find uniq_nellie in the Crawl source tree 19:55:48 so actually nellie is basically already in depths 19:55:55 Nellie (13Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 20 | HP: 240 | AC/EV: 13/10 | Dam: 4507(trample), 20, 15 | 05demonic, !sil | Res: 06magic(133), 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3375 | Sp: fire breath (3d40), blink | Sz: Giant | Int: normal. 19:55:55 %??nellie 19:56:03 hellephant (04Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 20 | HP: 139-204 | AC/EV: 13/10 | Dam: 4507(trample), 20, 15 | 05demonic, !sil | Res: 06magic(133), 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3124 | Sp: fire breath (3d40), blink | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 19:56:03 %?hellephant 19:56:03 (I was joking if you could not tell) 19:56:10 !vault nellie 19:56:10 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/sprint/sprint_mu.des;hb=HEAD#l442 19:56:13 hrm 19:56:23 not even sure where she is placed 19:56:28 Sprint. 19:56:30 some of us have rJoking (I for example) 19:56:56 ah, ok, hence the "nellie placement" concern 19:57:08 gammafunk: 448 KMONS: 3 = generate_awake Nellie 19:57:30 minmay: surely you were at least half serious 19:59:54 heading out be back in awhile. 19:59:58 -!- icantfindaname has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:00:38 ASSERT(timer_count <= NUM_TIMERS) in 'tags.cc' at line 2438 failed. 20:00:39 uh oh 20:00:59 gasp 20:01:02 WHAT HAVE YOU DINE 20:01:04 ... 20:01:05 DONE 20:01:06 :( 20:01:48 wait, who did what now? 20:02:10 i did some pretty crazy shit in wizmode with that save, also it was a djinn 20:02:32 %git 20:02:33 07wheals02 * 0.14-a0-3155-g15be66f: Make all abyss teleports shift the Abyss (minmay). 10(72 minutes ago, 18 files, 24+ 72-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=15be66f72648 20:03:06 another dude worked fine before, though i didn't check before rebasing 20:03:09 *after 20:03:17 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:03:19 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 20:03:40 oh, well I do like that change regardless of whether it breaks anything 20:03:49 was really annoying getting teleported back into the same area 20:03:52 ok seems to be not related to that change, since a save in the abyss and out load 20:04:26 yeah, wiz mode can do weird stuff sometimes 20:04:51 like if you switch from being a felid to not-a-felid, you can revive when you're killed, since it seems to think you still have felid lives 20:04:57 -!- Zilis has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:05:13 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:07:18 -!- genericpseudonym has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:08:07 alright, 3 am once more... very interesting discussion, thanks everyone... I will make sure that we talk about monster design (scope and details) at some point 20:08:14 !send dpeg sleep 20:08:15 Sending sleep to dpeg. 20:08:48 -!- Nightdew has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:09:13 however, I also think that the current situation is a lot more interesting than where we picked up (as elliptic says, lots of creative ideas have been applied)... so I see no problems to getting something really good if we put ourselves to this 20:10:03 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: I'm a bloody fool] 20:13:15 * gammafunk wonders if there are any gotta-do bug fixes for 0.14 at this point 20:14:14 * Lightli wonders how close we are to .14 anyways 20:14:28 And what was dpeg talking about when he mentioned "no-chunk-eating"? 20:14:43 !lm * crash 20:14:43 6877. [2014-03-08 21:05:33] Mordusangel the Cleaver (L7 MiBe of Trog) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 712: Exit exit sewer[152] didn't get generated on turn 2624. (Sewer) 20:15:43 * xFleury wonders if there has ever been a fork of DCSS that amounted to more than just a github/gitorious page (crate_crawl), or blogspot webpage (crawl_light). 20:16:09 -!- dck has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 20:16:16 !lm mordusangel x=start 20:16:17 20. [2014-03-08 21:05:33] [start=2013-11-25 20:27:44 [20131025202744S]] Mordusangel the Cleaver (L7 MiBe of Trog) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 712: Exit exit sewer[152] didn't get generated on turn 2624. (Sewer) 20:16:27 probably an old bug 20:16:47 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 20:17:00 !send wheals bugs 20:17:01 Sending bugs to wheals. 20:18:57 !tell dpeg You mentioned "no-chunk-eating" during that big discussion on Saturday as something to be put into .15. What were you referring to? 20:18:58 Lightli: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 20:20:17 no eating chunks 20:20:22 probably 20:20:27 (unless you are a carnivore) 20:20:36 There is a tavern thread about this. 20:22:58 -!- Stendhal has joined ##crawl-dev 20:23:31 oh 20:23:35 that seems like a trog nerf 20:24:16 buff, you sac more corpses 20:24:22 don't bring up balance when you've read one sentence of an idea 20:24:44 yes that too 20:27:23 -!- Zermako has quit [Quit: good night and good luck to all!] 20:28:13 !whichgod fefe 20:28:14 7 recent wins: 3x Vehumet, 2x Kikubaaqudgha, Sif Muna, Nemelex Xobeh 20:29:20 -!- Bamboomancer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:31:54 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:33:36 searching tavern for "+square +fov" or "+square +los" is finding nothing, lol 20:33:47 Was there ever a serious debate about square LoS for DCSS? 20:34:28 define serious 20:34:36 people definitely talked about it at length in here 20:34:38 s/serious// 20:34:54 but there are some diehard incorrect LOS advocates 20:35:15 (Define "incorrect". Problem in a nutshell.) 20:36:49 there are still multiple devs who would love to see squarelos in crawl, fwiw 20:37:29 the idea was vetoed before tavern really existed, so it isn't surprising there isn't discussion there 20:38:22 I think initially, alot of people would be against it, but after some weeks of actually playing with it, they'd hate to go back to a circle. 20:38:53 -!- RBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 20:39:08 -!- AreBrandon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:42:15 dpeg told me that there was "some reason" why DCSS couldn't/wouldn't use squarelos 20:43:56 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:43:58 -!- bh has quit [Changing host] 20:43:58 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:44:19 !seen dpeg 20:44:19 bh: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 20:44:20 I last saw dpeg at Sun Mar 9 02:10:03 2014 UTC (34m 16s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: I'm a bloody fool'. 20:45:12 historically there was a squarelos patch on one of the online servers at some point; it never went anywhere, though 20:46:21 I wonder how well it interacts with crawl's rays and notion of distance 20:46:57 gammafunk: it worked fine, it was on the servers for a month or two in place of trunk 20:47:01 squarelos is correct... 20:47:40 in september/october 2010 20:48:00 kb (and certainly others) didn't like it, in part because it makes exploration costs anisotropic 20:48:03 elliptic: re tavern discussion https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=356 20:48:10 so I guess the player is relatively disadvantaged when the monster enters los on the diagonal, as opposed to now where the player is disadvanteged when the monster enters at a cardinal direction? 20:48:28 elliptic: this thread is particularly amusing with all my posts gone 20:48:43 we should just convert crawl to use hexes :P 20:49:23 bh: enjoy doing art 20:49:28 -!- bh_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:49:41 -!- bh has quit [] 20:49:48 gammafunk: don't word it that way though; word it "it no longer matters what direction a monster approaches you from" 20:49:49 Bloax, aw, it'll be easy, right? :) 20:50:01 gammafunk: currently the player should try to enter los with a sleeping centaur along a diagonal if you intend to melee it, and a conjurer should enter los with a sleeping troll along a cardinal direction 20:50:05 There isn't an advantage to approach ancient liche on the diagonal anymore 20:50:10 -!- bh_ is now known as bh 20:50:10 gammafunk: squarelos fixes these things 20:50:38 the disadvantage of squarelos is that traveling diagonally causes you to see more squares 20:51:02 s/see/explore 20:51:30 bh: this is already the case 20:51:32 i have not thought about this much, do straight lines work the way you expect in the squarelos norm? 20:51:52 ackack: rays work the same way they do currently 20:51:58 they work as well as they do in circlelos 20:52:04 crawl has a lot of weird distance calculations 20:52:22 squarelos: just do it <3 20:52:40 greensnark: I am so much in favor 20:52:52 elliptic: well, doesn't it create the opposite situation: in squarelos try to enter centaur's los along a cardinal for melee and along a diagonal dir for a conjurer? 20:52:57 gammafunk: no 20:53:08 gammafunk: why would it lead to that? 20:53:08 gammafunk: because it is the same number of squares, so it doesn't matter 20:53:16 gammafunk: in either case, the monster is 7 squares away 20:53:19 fr: keep circlelos, make diagonal moves take 1.4 20:53:27 ackack: I don't think that can be done 20:53:28 let diagonal melee combat proceed accordingly 20:53:33 (i'm not serious) 20:53:38 ah, I guess I don't fully know what squarelos changes, then 20:53:47 gammafunk: crawl players/monsters move like kings on the chess board, the "distance" between two tiles is the max(x distance,y distance) 20:54:02 gammafunk: it just makes los look like a square rather than a circle and makes spell ranges and such look like a square instead of a circle 20:54:09 so square-los features an edge of LOS at constant distance from the player 20:54:13 by this metric 20:54:28 ah, the spell ranges change as well 20:54:47 +1 to hexes 20:54:58 -!- Stendhal is now known as Zilis 20:55:18 nonethousand: that's one notion of distance in crawl, yes but not the same notion of distance used for rays 20:55:19 -!- bh has quit [Quit: back later] 20:55:24 -!- Zilis is now known as willster22 20:55:37 yeah, I think one motivation is to unify these distances 20:55:38 -!- ChrisOelmueller_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:55:55 HexCrawl was done but it felt rather weird on tty 20:56:03 squarelos just works 20:56:37 yeah, I had been thinking about it as changing only the LOS without the spell ranges 20:56:43 in which case it didn't seem better 20:56:49 Ugh, hexcrawl seems to have dropped off the net 20:56:57 gammafunk: yeah, that wouldn't make much sense 20:57:02 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 20:57:14 gammafunk: actually, originally (back in 0.5ish), there was circular los and square spell ranges 20:57:45 -!- willster22 is now known as Zilis 20:57:56 not sure whether it was better or worse than circular los + circular spell ranges, but certainly it didn't make much sense 20:58:37 it was amusing when for a while reaching weapons could only "reach" one square diagonally 20:58:58 -!- eoc_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:59:34 fortunately squarelos radius 2 is the same as circlelos radius sqrt(8) so that could be fixed without offending the circle purist 20:59:53 lol 21:00:19 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:07 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 21:02:22 08:50:29 * squarelos: unrealistic to new players, very, very strongly promotes diagonal movement 21:03:18 07:31:05 please, show me one case where not moving diagonally when you can is better in squarelos (save the contrived one I already mentioned) 21:03:42 when there is gold one square to the east 21:03:48 -!- Kraito_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:04:24 the universe having self-consistent geometry is unrealistic 21:04:31 (to new players) 21:04:49 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:55 what about that latter argument? 21:05:14 would auto-explore be beneficial to never move N,E,W,S? but rather always diagonally? 21:05:27 how is moving diagonally not better in circlelos 21:05:42 it seems to me that it already is 21:06:19 if you want to say it's a problem specifically in squarelos first you have to establish that it works differently :p 21:06:59 also re: octopode crushers I posted a post in the topic 21:07:16 yeah, as I said earlier it is already better to explore using diagonals... just think about doing a zigzag walk rather than a straight line, you will see more squares 21:08:54 if you walk straight up kkkkkkk then you see a width 17 rectangle, if you zigzag yuyuyuyu then you see a width 18 rectangle 21:11:12 so disecting kb's argument, his reason for being against it is that the additional tiles you explore when moving diagonal rather than cardinal is made larger with squarelos 21:11:26 that seems pretty weak 21:12:12 (to be blunt) 21:16:54 I'm also not convinced that revealing more squares with a move is actually a good thing 21:17:11 I'd rather autoexplore into LOS of 1 monster than 2 monsters 21:17:19 (or non-auto explore) 21:17:32 I mean nightstalker is a beneficial mutation after all 21:18:01 -!- soundlust|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:20:10 yeah, it isn't really clear why "diagonal moves reveal more new squares" is necessarily an issue 21:22:21 by my estimate, moving diagonal in circular explores 19 new cells, vs 29 new cells in squarelos (extending 7 cells in each direction) 21:24:53 a difference of 10 cells in a completely open area isn't much of a difference, and seeing as you generally prefer smaller LOS (nightstalker, night, darkness, lantern)... 21:24:55 there are already qualitative differences between diagonal and cardinal directions anyway 21:25:14 so "moving this way explores more efficiently" doesn't seem like a big problem to me 21:25:34 -!- PsyMar has quit [Quit: I'm Discordian mafia. I'll make you an offer you can't understand.] 21:29:26 actually, diagonal in current los is 23 new cells 21:29:27 (there are a few extra ones that aren't in the same quadrant as the direction you are moving) 21:30:18 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:10 -!- Lasty has left ##crawl-dev 21:31:14 -!- Sage has joined ##crawl-dev 21:32:00 -!- nrook has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:11 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:33:39 ugh, I figured I was probably off by 1-2, but 4, damn.. 21:34:44 did the squarelos branch use 8 cells in each direction, or 7? 21:34:59 I used 7 for the latter measurement, but if 8 gets used, it'll be more than 29 21:35:11 8 makes more sense to me than 7 to be honest 21:35:19 7 21:35:27 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:34 7 felt pretty reasonable in practice to me 21:35:46 yes I think they are both fine 21:36:58 the way this worked with spell ranges is that ranges that were 5 (or 4? 6? I forget exactly) or more were reduced by 1) 21:37:20 bolt of magma buff 21:44:48 -!- eoc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:45:45 -!- ChrisOelmueller_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:49:02 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:50:11 -!- reaverb1 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:50:20 -!- reaverb1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:51:13 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 21:51:28 Floating monster text (debug output?) while going down the stairs. by Pisano 21:51:29 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:53:39 -!- Datul has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:54:49 03tenofswords02 07* 0.14-a0-3156-g6913e27: Stab randomly at random minivaults. 10(10 seconds ago, 5 files, 818+ 831-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6913e27016db 21:55:17 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 21:58:17 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 21:58:29 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:58:34 -!- Escalator_ is now known as Escalator 22:06:06 -!- xFleury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 27.0.1/20140212131424]] 22:10:59 -!- poopfist42 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:15 God of Hidden Forces. Allows you to unlock the hidden potential of anything. (Use close to any object as a evocable). [Really basic idea right now. Worth developing?] 22:11:34 -!- RBrandon has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:12:00 Bcadren: that sounds horrendously complex 22:12:25 Reminds me of a concept I had once: an anti-evokable god; drain charges/magic from things for healing / MP / whatever... 22:12:44 Grunt: sounds like a reason to haul the dungeon around 22:12:54 * Grunt hauls bh out of the dungeon. 22:13:08 * bh beats Grunt with the Ur-Snozz 22:13:14 * Grunt seems unharmed. 22:13:25 Grunt: are we going to add an Ur-Snozz fixedart? 22:13:40 No, we are not. Except maybe on 1 April. <_< 22:13:58 +27,+27 Ur-Snozz {Hunger--} 22:14:15 (removes your hunger clock) 22:14:19 what's the spawn weight for those? 22:14:27 generic snozzes? 22:14:34 can you hide inside it? 22:14:39 ur-snozzes on 1 April 22:16:06 bh yea, it probably would be...like Evoke a sword, effect based on its brand, chance of corroding the sword by one (like you'd used up a charge) and/or HP or MP hit to you. 22:16:34 Bcadren: flavorwise, it's interesting, but I think it would just encourage players to cart around crap 22:19:03 Could gourmandify it...only things you've been wielding for awhile (in weapons/armour)...or destroy it after use (if you evoked food, missiles, etc.) 22:19:37 a god that transformed/enhanced current evocables might work pretty well 22:20:03 * SamB doesn't need any more encouragement to cart around crap 22:22:14 has anyone ever bothered reading the make_name function? 22:22:37 !source make_name 22:22:41 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc;hb=HEAD#l2560 22:23:05 Wow 22:23:10 this seems interesting already 22:23:51 greensnark: you have a lot of explaining to do 22:23:57 Sage: that ... must not be what I thought it was going to be, because if it were I shouldn't think you'd be able to understand it well enough to make such a statement, especially not so quickly ;-) 22:24:32 !send bh Plog 22:24:38 Sending Plog to bh. 22:24:50 SamB: I was skimming it 22:24:56 and saw line 2705 22:25:52 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:25:56 -!- Sage is now known as Basil 22:26:11 I think kitties should get random colors instead of all black. 22:26:41 like anime hair random, or regular random? 22:26:56 not to be a curmudgeon, but I think if anyone ever feels the need to touch this code we should delete it and replace it with actual language modeling 22:27:05 -!- kunwon1 has quit [Excess Flood] 22:27:31 bh: or at least with something that can be understood 22:27:43 nonethousand isn't that kind of what neme does? 22:27:57 SamB: I bet I could write an ngram model in few lines of code 22:28:28 -!- kunwon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:28:44 Then we could give Angels linguistically distinct cat-on-keyboard names than Panlords 22:29:10 bh, for a while I've wanted to give various genuses their own sets of names (sort of like how orcs have their own set of names). <_< 22:29:17 Especially the merc sets. 22:29:26 Grunt: totally easy to do 22:30:54 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 22:31:18 -!- ac13 has quit [Quit: ac13] 22:31:22 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:31:24 When do angels get names now? 22:31:30 Or is this just something that would be nice? 22:31:35 (to add) 22:31:45 ^ that 22:32:14 yeah that sounds neat 22:32:16 very old testament 22:33:07 (clearly bring Michael back as an angelic unique <_<) 22:34:23 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 22:35:28 -!- N78291 has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:36:53 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 22:37:23 -!- reaverb has quit [Client Quit] 22:43:18 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:31 -!- Foamed_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:12 ...bug: shadow creatures can give demonspawn in Pan if you're following a good god. 22:47:08 -!- Wolpertinger has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:47:21 bh: make_name is before my time 22:47:40 greensnark: ah. your fingerprints are all over it on the blame. Where'd it come from? 22:47:42 make_name in its current version is largely from 4.1, isn't it? 22:48:06 Grunt: I think it's from 4.0 22:48:12 I don't remember if we stole 4.1's 22:48:17 plog is from 4.1, IIRC! 22:48:33 did dpeg change his name because of make_name...? 22:48:39 Plog was around in 4.0 22:48:44 Brent improved things somewhat in 4.1 22:49:00 But he used the names of the former devteam as seeds which produced some interesting results 22:49:02 ...oh, it was. 22:49:23 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:49:31 * greensnark sleeps. 22:49:42 Plog goes back quite a ways in Crawl, it looks like. 22:49:57 ...it turns up in this 2.32 binary I have <_< 22:50:28 -!- DrKe has quit [] 22:50:45 -!- Ququman has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:49 plog is eternal 22:51:33 what is plog 22:51:37 ??plog 22:51:40 oh 22:51:42 haha 22:51:53 your knowledgebots cannot help you now! 22:51:54 When make_name tries to generate a name that's too short, it returns "Plog". 22:51:59 o 22:52:03 I've seen that code, actually 22:52:10 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:52:12 !send Plog PleasingFungus 22:52:15 (rip x2) 22:52:16 -!- wheals has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:52:20 -!- wheals_ is now known as wheals 22:52:22 -!- Pisano has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:52:23 that was weird 22:52:25 maximum rip 22:52:30 rrriiippp 22:52:41 in other rip related news 22:52:48 my frog-men crash the game when they try to hop 22:53:00 this seems provably incorrect. 22:53:08 %git HEAD^{/crash frog} 22:53:09 07kilobyte02 * 0.11-a0-2377-g92d52c9: Make crash frogs blink frogs again. 10(1 year, 9 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=92d52c9cc9ef 22:53:17 hahahaha 22:53:21 I'm glad to see I'm in good company! 22:53:35 frog-men? 22:53:50 is that another race idea? 22:53:52 yeah 22:53:56 just something I was thinking about 22:54:27 basically their gimmick is evokable short-range semicontrolled blink ('hop') and a general ranged specialty in apts (though weak apts overall) 22:55:01 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:55:12 nrook thinks they should be able to swim & be slowed on taking cold damage, but idk if that's making them too gimmicky 22:55:24 anyway it's all moot if I can't make them stop crashing the game !!! 22:55:43 -!- Bcadren_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:55:46 that was weird. 22:56:16 did sequell go to sleep at the same time greensnark did? 22:56:30 proof that greensnark is really typing everything for sequell 22:56:52 i got split off from the channel somehow, it could be freenode 22:57:07 whoa.... 22:57:13 yeah, netsplit more likely probably 22:58:03 I did too 22:58:28 it thinks I'm still here, but my client stopped working and I closed it and reopen... 22:59:51 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:26 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:01:57 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-3157-gf92f90f: Consider all demonspawn enemies unholy (78291). 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f92f90f233de 23:07:04 -!- Flun has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:07:05 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:10:56 -!- wheals_ has quit [Client Quit] 23:14:15 PleasingFungus: I think having all three of actual blink, jump attack, and that, might be too much 23:14:24 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:15:43 PleasingFungus: alternatively, you can satisfy nrook by giving grey draconians jump attack 23:17:43 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:17:58 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:18:36 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:18:44 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 23:21:53 -!- eb_ has quit [] 23:21:58 -!- ac13_ is now known as ac13 23:22:00 -!- 64MAAJBOX has quit [Client Quit] 23:22:03 man, I'm not sure that posting responses on GDD is really worth the time it takes... 23:22:04 I should restrict myself to like, three sentences 23:22:04 or a haiku 23:22:05 don't feel obligated to reply right away on any forum 23:22:05 the main advantage to the forum format is letting the discussion progress slowly and with reflection, imo 23:22:07 -!- Foamed has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:22:25 plog[1/7]: When Crawl's name generator generates a name too short, it returns "Plog" instead of rerolling. That's why this name appears relatively often. 23:22:25 Sending PleasingFungus to Plog. 23:22:26 lantell is also lagging 23:22:26 a lot 23:22:28 -!- ac13 has quit [Quit: ac13] 23:22:32 -!- kingbuddyboy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:22:48 -!- st_ has quit [Excess Flood] 23:23:23 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:24:18 -!- jeffro_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:24:22 -!- jeffro has quit [Excess Flood] 23:24:22 -!- NotKintak has quit [Excess Flood] 23:24:22 -!- gnum has quit [Excess Flood] 23:24:22 -!- vede has quit [Excess Flood] 23:24:22 -!- ZRN has quit [Excess Flood] 23:24:22 -!- Stelpa has quit [Excess Flood] 23:24:36 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Excess Flood] 23:24:36 -!- debo has quit [Excess Flood] 23:24:36 -!- Zeor has quit [Excess Flood] 23:24:37 -!- ebarrett has quit [Write error: Connection timed out] 23:24:37 -!- Bcadren has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:37 -!- buzzykins has quit [Write error: Connection timed out] 23:24:38 -!- odiv has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 23:24:44 -!- Zeor has quit [Client Quit] 23:25:00 -!- Glucocorticoid has quit [Quit: null] 23:25:00 -!- poopfist42 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:11 -!- utrick has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it] 23:25:16 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:35 sequell was gone before greensnark, sadly 23:25:36 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:25:45 -!- [1]utrick has joined ##crawl-dev 23:25:49 -!- [1]utrick is now known as utrick 23:26:03 the server is being odd... 23:28:18 -!- BirdoPrey has quit [Quit: BirdoPrey] 23:30:28 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 27.0.1/20140212131424]] 23:44:20 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 23:46:06 -!- Laraso has quit [Quit: Laraso falls through a shaft! The shaft crumbles and collapses.] 23:46:22 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:49:49 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 23:51:09 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:25 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:35 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 23:53:30 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Quit: I quit] 23:53:40 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:38 CBRO ok? 23:55:40 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:31 -!- home has quit [Changing host] 23:57:37 ^players 23:57:37 ProjectEKO (L9 @ D:8, T:9898), Rallet (L4 @ D:2, T:963), Etherthief (L2 @ D:1, T:1247) 23:59:19 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]