00:01:11 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:01:14 thanks 00:01:34 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2328-g18f63ac (34) 00:02:03 now i'll have to play an yredite so i can have marvin buddies 00:03:01 (Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be a dungeon-shattering kaboom!) 00:04:20 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:06:10 Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.14-a0-2328-g18f63ac (34) 00:06:20 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:06:50 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 00:07:13 -!- Fortescue has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14:53 Phantasmal warriors do not behead hydra by ackack 00:18:38 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2328-g18f63ac (34) 00:20:52 phantasmal warrior (09W) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 33-64 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 2612(vuln) | 07undead, 10doors, fighter, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(72), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 544 | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:20:52 %??phantasmal warrior 00:21:03 -!- dck has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 00:25:20 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:28:06 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:28:54 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:28:59 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:51 -!- AlphaQ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:59 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:32:08 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:32:22 -!- xFleury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 26.0/20131205075310]] 00:33:13 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 00:33:50 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:06 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 00:36:44 -!- Basil has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:37:05 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 00:39:05 -!- gnum has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:39:18 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:39:43 -!- djinni has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:43:53 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 00:46:33 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2328-g18f63ac 00:47:09 -!- djinni has quit [Excess Flood] 00:48:03 -!- Amy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:49:16 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 00:52:36 -!- thedefinite has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference] 01:01:30 -!- nixor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:07:31 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: qqqqqqq] 01:07:49 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 01:10:18 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:11:31 -!- minmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:11:35 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:18:26 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:52 -!- crate has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:28:57 -!- araganzar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:39:05 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 01:43:03 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:46:15 Ugh. I see why CSZO speccing is failing, when logged in. 01:47:13 Seems like -print-webtiles-options has \x1b[2j (clrscr) at the start 01:47:19 ouch 01:47:35 yeah, that *probably* shouldn't be initializing curses or anything ... 01:47:47 CSZO 'speccing?' 01:47:52 watching 01:47:55 ooh 01:48:02 spectating 01:48:22 I'm not getting it locally, so it's probably the DGL wrapper or whatever 01:48:23 not specifying 01:48:29 Medar: hmm 01:48:37 |amethyst: ^ 01:49:07 I should probably set up DGL server myself at some point. Just so I really know how this stuff works (and can test). 01:49:42 the wiki makes it pretty painless 01:49:54 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=setting_up_dgamelaunch_and_webtiles 01:50:12 Yeah, that's nice 01:50:51 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:54:14 -!- thug_lessons has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:55:09 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 01:58:53 -!- Vizer__ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:00:20 I hope it's not making ttyrecs of these calls... 02:01:26 -!- Soadreqm has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:03:08 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:05:25 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:08:07 -!- bschlief has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:31 -!- ereinion has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:11:14 -!- ereinion has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:11:50 -!- ereinion has quit [Client Quit] 02:13:18 -!- MP2E has quit [Quit: brb] 02:13:26 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 02:15:46 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:47 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2328-g18f63ac (34) 02:18:09 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:25 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:24:54 !messages 02:24:55 (1/19) bh said (46w 2d 13h 25m 45s ago): the CDO SSL certificate appears to have expired. 02:53:13 notcluie (L15 LOSk) ASSERT(in_bounds(where)) in 'misc.cc' at line 1068 failed. (where = (0,0)) (Shoals:2) 02:59:48 -!- Wah has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:04:55 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:11:43 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it] 03:15:59 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:19:54 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:21:20 -!- Furril has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:03 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:23:15 -!- Escalator_ is now known as Escalator 03:27:24 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:43 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:36:37 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:59 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:40:51 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [] 03:40:59 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:49:09 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 03:49:37 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:07 -!- kait has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:15:43 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:18:12 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:20:45 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:30:19 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 04:41:14 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:45:08 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:46:59 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:01 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:49:24 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 05:18:51 -!- Adder__ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:24:33 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:45:32 -!- broquaint has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:50:41 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:52:17 -!- broquaint has joined ##crawl-dev 06:07:58 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 06:18:43 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:32 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:20:32 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:22:43 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:22:59 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:26:46 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 06:43:55 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:45:50 -!- jday_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:46:11 -!- jday_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:29 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:17:32 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:20:37 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:20:54 hard times 07:20:55 dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 07:21:15 !messages 07:21:15 (1/2) gammafunk said (1w 1d 8h 31m 23s ago): I've iterated on the Asterion Mi unique again by giving him 1) spectral weapon and 2) always a demon weapon (makky theme) + shield - heavy armour. 07:21:31 !messages 07:21:31 (1/1) gammafunk said (1w 1d 8h 30m 25s ago): technically it works fine so far, although I may need to tweak the spectre behaviour. I removed greater servant as a result; let me know what you think. 07:22:52 !tell gammafunk Sounds good to me. Perhaps Asterion should be just a unique minotaur, and we drop Makhleb. (I reckon some gods are just hard to make monster worshipers for.) 07:22:52 dpeg: OK, I'll let gammafunk know. 07:22:57 -!- Thomus435868 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:23:31 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 07:24:39 -!- OCTOTROG has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:25:55 -!- OCTOTROG has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:35 -!- Whistling_Bread has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:31:37 -!- DKR has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:32:22 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:39:35 -!- Soadreqm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:42:48 ackack (L22 DgCj) (Abyss:2) 07:42:55 hmm 07:57:15 -!- jday_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:07:03 -!- jday has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:59 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 08:09:06 -!- Dan has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:15:08 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:19:10 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 08:19:29 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:22:40 -!- _oiseaux has joined ##crawl-dev 08:24:39 <_oiseaux> hey all. could someone point me to where i can find what determines which vault will be picked from a .des file for say, portal vaults, or branch endings? i had a cursory look, but the repo web browser doesn't seem to have a search function so I'm a bit lost 08:25:38 <_oiseaux> more specifically, the algorithm that makes the choice based on the weights of the vaults. i suspect it's based on the sum of the weights in the file? 08:28:45 -!- Whistling_Bread has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:29:28 _oiseaux: yes, I think so: the probability is a weighted sum: (weight of current vault) / (sum of weights of all eligible vaults) 08:29:40 it gets more complicated with CHANCEs but I don't think we have that for portal vaults 08:30:20 <_oiseaux> dpeg: excellent, thanks 08:30:38 10 being the weight of a vault without a WEIGHT tag 08:31:27 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:35:52 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 08:37:47 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:41:49 -!- ketsa has joined ##crawl-dev 08:43:28 -!- lukano has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:46:32 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:46:48 Morning. 08:52:13 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:59:13 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:42 -!- OCTOTROG has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:48 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16:25 -!- dck has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:14 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:27:21 -!- ketsa has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Iceweasel 17.0.10/20131030035318]] 09:27:47 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:28:58 dpeg: Hrm, if I were to remove makky (and presumably greater destruct), any thoughts as to what else would be interesting with our Minotaur? 09:28:58 gammafunk: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 09:30:12 Mi is not the first species I think of as "skald", although of course it works fine; I could give him another skald spell (he is currently a warrior-king anyhow) 09:30:49 minotaur emperor 09:31:04 A gold stealing attack now that harpies don't steal food 09:31:23 his treasury must be really low... 09:31:57 wheals: He actually has some speech currently about the player's treasure going to his coffers 09:32:08 Ithink it's even conditional on the player having over e.g. 1k gold 09:32:20 <_oiseaux> are you guys revamping labyrinth minotaur? :) 09:32:26 heh, no 09:32:33 just trying to put together a Mi unique 09:32:50 <_oiseaux> nice 09:32:52 "(I reckon some gods are just hard to make monster worshipers for.)" 09:32:52 tenofswords: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 09:33:15 tenofswords: Yeah, I think he's right, don't you agree? 09:33:36 yes, I couldn't come up with a sif/ash Ds to round out the cast 09:33:52 Any thoughts for something aside from spectral that's good for him? 09:33:59 Regen works, I guess 09:34:07 is there even monster regen the spell? 09:34:13 yes, used to be for nergalle 09:34:26 monsters have a fixed max regen rate, though 09:34:45 (this, of course, could be fixed) 09:34:53 I guess regen + ddoor was very annoying; wonder why it was removed if not for that 09:35:03 ddoor already annoys me greatly on her... 09:35:24 maybe her spectral orcs could have a lower cap 09:35:38 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:35:48 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 09:35:52 actually the real thing nergalle needs is to summon actual spectral warriors or knights 09:36:03 instead of spectral orcs that happen to have warrior/knight health/weapons 09:36:16 then she can get to be lethal 09:36:20 tenofswords: I've noticed that some of her spectres *are* warriors or knights 09:36:25 why what's the difference 09:36:29 base damage 09:36:32 orc (04o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 4-10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 5 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(4) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 3 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 09:36:32 %??orc 09:36:33 or at least that's what it says in xv 09:36:35 orc knight (10o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 47-88 | AC/EV: 2/13 | Dam: 25 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(36) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 617 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 09:36:35 %??orc knight 09:36:36 mm 09:36:43 5 damage, not 25 damage 09:36:52 she's already pretty lethal pre-lair 09:37:01 can push her back down a little! 09:37:11 bolt of draining is pretty dangerous 09:37:23 Nergalle (16o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 60 | AC/EV: 9/11 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(66) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 804 | Sp: b.draining (3d18), sum.spectral orcs, dispel undead (3d18), haste other, 04esc:death's door | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 09:37:23 %??nergalle 09:37:26 well, yes 09:37:31 yes 2/3 of my deaths to her are from draining 09:37:44 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:49 !lg . ikiller=~nergalle s=place 09:37:49 One game for gammafunk (ikiller=~nergalle): D:15 09:37:58 it is just a shame that one of her "flavourful" or at least unique spells is a pile of cheats 09:38:10 hehe, "pile of cheats" 09:38:14 great item name 09:38:18 of course, ddoor is the definition of cheating 09:38:35 or how about a "Deck of Cheats" 09:38:38 hmm 09:38:43 that's pretty much every deck anyhow 09:38:45 torturous black sun (136) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 58-91 | AC/EV: 6/26 08(spiny 3) | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(60) | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1175 | Sp: b.draining (3d22), malign offering (2d20), black mark, dispel undead (3d24), 04esc:death's door | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 09:38:45 %??torturous black sun 09:38:57 heh, it's nergalle the ds 09:39:16 hey, black mark is devastating if it buffs an executioner 09:39:26 it's even better when she summons a spectral warlord with a bardiche and a crossbow 09:39:35 yes, that's not exactly fair to say it's just nergalle 09:39:46 and then hastes it! 09:40:11 with her wand of hasting she just so accidentally picked up 09:40:13 it could probably use more direct damage though, the yred side of it is pretty much regulated to that hyper-drain-life 09:40:29 no, she has haste other 09:40:30 oh, black sun's are yredites? 09:40:37 !title black sun 09:40:37 *suns 09:40:38 black sun: Invocations (Kikubaaqudgha) 09:40:41 yred/kiku 09:40:53 the kiku is the spells, the yred is malign/black mark 09:41:09 Well oddly enough, ds in pan enable yred to be used more in extended 09:41:17 Interesting, I don't think I've seen her haste her summons before. 09:41:32 clearly a happy connected relationship 09:41:37 it could be broken 09:41:52 That's probably not textbook definition of irony, but I'm going with it 09:42:43 Was that change to pan (corpses and non-demons kills) very intentional? 09:42:57 I assume it was something at least on your mind during the proposal 09:43:34 -!- gustaf1 is now known as ghallberg 09:44:04 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:44:21 I thought it'd be fine because this was partially meant as set-up for finite pan 09:45:09 -!- _oiseaux has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:46:21 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 09:47:15 aww, finite pan :/ 09:48:00 Pan is becoming finite? 09:48:04 you don't like the idea alefury? 09:48:15 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:48:38 Has it ever been discussed? I know nothing about finite Pan except that it is an idea. 09:48:45 or at least discussions of finite pan would make much more sense after pan has more to it 09:49:13 Well, even if pan is finite, I was speaking more in terms of the result of finishing pan having access to corpses piety for the relevant gods, which is the case regardless of whether it's finite 09:49:15 several times, though the last time doesn't readily come to mind 09:49:50 <|amethyst> It has come up before here, though I don't know just how many have participated in/seen those discussions 09:49:51 is piety much of a concern by pan time 09:50:11 I think it can be (see Implojin's trolls of okawaru) 09:50:15 For certain gods, they are very problematic in most of extended 09:50:21 I never play Pan, so I don't really mind too much. But when Erik dropped the ball he told me earnestly that we should keep unlimited play in Crawl, just keep it to specific corners (mummy, pan). 09:50:25 it helps trog, I guess, but trog is already very threatened by four of the Ds monsters being priests 09:50:25 Yred is perhaps teh most extreme case 09:50:26 I like infinite Pan because it lets me scum if I want to, basically 09:50:26 <|amethyst> I think galehar is right that something like that should be brought up on CRD, at least once someone has a substantive proposal 09:50:35 It happens occasionally 09:50:44 alefury: this 09:51:07 the problem with infinite pan is that it also kind of forces you to scum when you don't want to 09:51:17 I don't think that balance concerns (e.g. god power) are very relevant when we talk about the extended game. 09:51:30 going through 40ish levels (which seems pretty typical for a 15 runer) when you're interested in 4 and a random vault is pretty tedious 09:51:45 ackack: I'm pretty sure scumming Pan is generally a bad idea if you want to win, and a good idea if you want to scum 09:51:54 ackack: in the old days, you had to go through many, many more levels (the special levels were completely random, now they're slated to come early) 09:51:57 -!- radinms has quit [] 09:51:59 -!- Mateji has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:52:06 dpeg: good, so it has improved, why not improve further? 09:52:11 the abyss is also infinite 09:52:17 A suggestion I've heard for "finite pan" is that the special floors would be guaranteed in the first N 09:52:40 nonethousand: yes, for example. Or just increase chances for "upfront" even more. 09:52:43 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:52:49 but of course this doesn't mean you'll ever reach a blockade, the last pan floor 09:53:01 even getting rid of demonic would be a huge improvement 09:53:34 I think this is more a philosophical question: do we want to cater to the mindset which wants to conquer everything, or rather to the mindset which wants to go on eternally? 09:53:54 I would prefer for zigs to be the infinite scumming thing 09:54:06 via an evokable on zig:27 that lets you make a portal to another zig 09:54:28 they are supposed to be the pinacle of threat and the real attraction to infinite pan scumming anyway 09:54:35 while that's possible, zigs are just so much different from the rest of crawl that i don't know how much that appeals 09:54:49 maybe lots of people would like it? it would surely be a good feature for the people who do zigscum (i know a couple) 09:54:57 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:55:17 i don't see any reason not to have the zig chain thing at any rate 09:55:24 of course I'd also prefer lots more variations to zig set-ups and I've been stabbing at zig sets for months now 09:55:27 but that strikes me as a side issue to whether pan shoudl be shortened 09:56:14 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 09:56:24 Yeah the zig chain thing is great in any case 09:56:29 tenofswords: have a go at it! Ziggurats suffer from the fact that they were invented and implemented by people who are too bad to play them:) 09:56:41 kehehe 09:56:47 You don't have to be that good to play them 09:56:55 ackack: not quite: the question is how we provide most fun to players who want challenges beyond runes 09:57:10 ridiculous idea: what if unique pan lords actually had multiple floors, almost like you were thrust into a 3-floor "branch" with their rune at the bottom 09:57:13 tenofswords: zigsprint is a good place to try them out 09:57:15 alefury: I entered them sometimes, I have no chance to beat one. 09:57:18 dpeg: i don't know which line you're responding to there 09:57:30 dpeg: having the right stuff helps a lot 09:57:52 dpeg: like, say, ddoor, cblink, a distortion weapon to banish/teleport yourself with 09:58:02 tenofswords: btw, if you ever do this, please contact me for my "imp cheering floor" -- it will rock, promised/ 09:58:05 also something to kill all the dudes, like firestorm 09:58:21 ackack: zigs side issue regarding pan 09:58:22 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 09:58:24 ??dudes 09:58:24 I don't have a page labeled dudes in my learndb. 09:58:29 what 09:58:44 I don't like the idea of unrand pan lord branches because some of them are very awkward already (cerebov's would have more fire than gehenna, lom has a bunch of D:16 threats to make up his vault contents, mnoleg is full of ever so wonderful mutation) 09:59:03 fair point 09:59:06 dpeg: would it be fine enough to make a center pillar glass vault of imps 09:59:22 pan being infinite but the stuff people care about being totally frontloaded would be fine 09:59:38 or putting the demonic rune somewhere else in the game, diving through levels can go pretty fast if you're not looking for demonic 10:00:09 <|amethyst> dpeg: Just a brainstorm: what about having fairly frequent portals, after the last Pan rune has been taken, to one last special and very hard level where the player can destroy Pan. If they want to keep going forever, they can do that instead. There might need to be something (I don't know if a rune is appropriate; loot or XP is not enough at that point in the game) to give some incentive to do it despite the danger 10:00:39 could put the demonic rune there 10:00:47 that way it would be not super annoying 10:01:05 ackack: it's already frontloaded, we can just frontload it some more 10:01:08 sure 10:01:21 another improvement would be increasing exit generation when you have all 5 pan runes a la the abyss 10:01:34 good point, just do it :) 10:01:53 alternatively you could be so radical 10:02:00 <|amethyst> dpeg: it could even be something that requires the orb 10:02:02 as to throw you out of the pandemonium once you have all the runes 10:02:13 because dang you got them good 10:02:25 bloax: well part of the discussion is for people who don't want that to happen, but i guess you could just go back into pan 10:02:40 * dpeg mentions once more the idea that you have to have the orb to enter Pan. 10:03:16 dpeg: If anything then not doing Zot:5 is likely going to increase your chances down there. 10:03:19 That's kind of harsh 10:03:23 Unless you like a huge list of mutations. 10:03:39 alefury: that is kind of the point 10:03:44 that's an interesting idea dpeg 10:04:33 of course that restriction will make a 15-rune game more linear 10:05:25 fighting panlords with constant orbrun spawns would be completely stupid, the only thing left to do would be ninjaing which is already the best way to do pan if you just want to win with 15 runes 10:05:50 <|amethyst> alefury: I think with that proposal orbrun spawns don't need to exist in Pan 10:05:55 (well, also ninjaing runes would be super difficult with the orb) 10:06:16 -ctele sounds like agony 10:06:18 <|amethyst> alefury: since orbrun spawns are to a large extent "pan coming after you" 10:06:28 -ctele sounds like it would improve pan alot 10:06:35 a lot 10:06:44 could just remove ctele 10:06:49 ctele is one thing that really sets pan apart from hells 10:06:52 you have now created the pan alot 10:07:12 but maybe with ds monsters it's distinct enough even then 10:07:47 what is the stealth malus from holding the orb? 10:08:58 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Iceweasel 26.0/20131215102647]] 10:11:04 |amethyst: if you destroyed pan where would the orbrun spawns come from 10:11:31 <|amethyst> !tell napkin I think the biggest thing is having a shared repository where multiple people can work on the code easily (without having to exchange patches/merge requests). Also, but less important, formalising our arrangement whereby many server admins have access to other servers, though the fact that CDO-the-game-server is shared with other more sensitive things might limit that 10:11:31 Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys! 10:11:40 nowhere 10:11:41 you win 10:11:43 <|amethyst> !tell napkin I think the biggest thing is having a shared repository where multiple people can work on the code easily (without having to exchange patches/merge requests). 10:11:43 |amethyst: OK, I'll let napkin know. 10:11:45 well, since orb run already includes orb guardians, clearly orbrun starts spamming those instead 10:11:54 <|amethyst> !tell napkin Also, but less important, formalising our arrangement whereby many server admins have access to other servers, though the fact that CDO-the-game-server is shared with other more sensitive things might limit that 10:11:55 |amethyst: OK, I'll let napkin know. 10:12:04 pre-berserk ones, maybe 10:12:14 <|amethyst> wheals: Destroying pan could be the end of the orbrun 10:12:19 no need to !tell me, ackack 10:12:19 Napkin: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:12:22 no need to !tell me, |amethyst 10:12:23 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 10:12:26 <|amethyst> Napkin: sorry :) 10:12:31 that might be enough of an incentive in itself! 10:12:34 i read all those nick hilights anyways :) 10:12:36 <|amethyst> wheals: No need to escape to the surface when you rule an entire plane 10:12:46 -!- yalue has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:12:51 ultra chaos god ending 10:12:54 well.. new server will not have vserver anymore 10:13:12 so i'm thinking about using lxc, but that seems like a lot of maintenance work 10:13:45 and root access would still not be possible 10:13:52 you have to fight andor sigmund at the very end 10:13:58 <|amethyst> Napkin: not just non-crawl stuff I mean: I'm not sure whether mantis, wordpress, etc. should be in the same security domain as the online play stuff 10:14:00 if you want an alternative ending, I'd like becoming a pan lord much better than destroying pan 10:14:01 which is required, unless we want to deal with a lot of sudo 10:14:14 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 10:14:19 <|amethyst> Napkin: What about a real VM for the game server? 10:14:30 what software? 10:14:34 you folks always want to destroy everything, sometime's a man has to settle and raise a family, complete with pet nexoqec and demonic offspring 10:14:49 <|amethyst> Napkin: I don't know, what does rax use? 10:14:56 and i don't want disk images 10:15:16 that's just annoying if you have to shift free space around 10:15:17 <|amethyst> Napkin: since I believe CAO is on the same hardware as otherstuff.akrasiac.org 10:15:32 dpeg: oh, so that's where the demonspawn come from 10:15:38 -!- Antimanner has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:15:42 take the orb to the center of pan to assert your new authority there 10:15:45 what does rax use for what? 10:15:45 rax: You have 23 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:15:46 VMs? 10:15:51 I use xen 10:15:59 mantis, wordpress should be in the same security domain, but not their data 10:16:02 hey rax :) 10:16:05 hi! :D 10:16:26 <|amethyst> Napkin: that makes sense 10:16:32 crawl.akrasiac.org is on a separate VM from all of the other stuff, most of which are on separate VMs, although I am lazy and host some tiny pet projects on my personal machine 10:16:39 but it is all the same hardware 10:16:44 yeah 10:17:01 makes sense.. i'm just not motivated to use disk images 10:17:29 or can xen serve host directories as "disks" nowadays? 10:17:41 -!- Gene_ has quit [Client Quit] 10:17:54 <|amethyst> Napkin: when you say "disk images", would a dedicated LVM partition count? 10:17:56 last time i checked i gave up.. 10:18:03 <|amethyst> Napkin: LVM is pretty easy to grow 10:18:04 I use LVM 10:18:15 I think you could use directories at this point if you wanted though? 10:18:19 <|amethyst> Napkin: and doesn't have the speed disadvantages of disk-image-in-a-file 10:18:26 wheals: destroying pan displaces its residents into the dungeon where they conveniently encounter the adventurer who undid them. They are not happy. 10:18:31 <|amethyst> Even if it's not natively supported you could use NFS etc 10:18:42 <|amethyst> using a directory of the host I mean 10:18:58 i don't want any images 10:19:05 but maybe i'll rethink that.. 10:19:15 haven't had much time to think about the subject recently 10:19:15 <|amethyst> Napkin: greensnark is also interested in Sequell etc being part of this 10:19:30 i can imagine :) 10:20:17 i will keep it in mind when i do the move 10:20:37 <|amethyst> Napkin: I do think you've managed security better than I have 10:20:43 and decide for one virtual solution finally then ;) 10:21:54 |amethyst: and i'm still not too happy about the security ;) 10:22:16 I'd love to get a more visceral sense of just how unamused the Lords of Pandemonium are when I pick up the orb of zot 10:22:25 i had the impression that greensnark's adaptation of my scripts made it much better 10:22:29 Maybe "hey he has the orb of zot" monspeak for pan lords 10:22:59 And yeah pan ds on the orb run is also cool 10:23:18 maybe 8 of them should appear immediately 10:23:28 wheals: twenty-seven of them? 10:23:39 i just meant in the squares surrounding you 10:23:44 yes, I know :) 10:24:00 27 could also surround you pretty well... 10:24:03 alternatively, they could be like the vaults:5 greeting party 10:24:05 <|amethyst> Napkin: probably, but my deployments of it have taken shortcuts for ease of development that probably do grant too much access. 10:24:11 how many vault guards are in it 10:24:33 I think the number is completely fixed in the des 10:24:53 I want to say 24 10:25:10 it is 10:25:18 hm 10:25:22 bug imo 10:25:28 it's missing 3 10:25:43 <|amethyst> Napkin: For example, cszo has crawl-dev able to update and write to the dgl management scripts, but since there's a sudo-to-root rule for that stuff... 10:25:43 the final three in the center? 10:26:15 they could be on the stairs! 10:26:18 <|amethyst> Napkin: probably several of the things that currently require sudo dgl could be made to use small helpers instead 10:26:21 yes, that's one of the problems 10:26:39 <|amethyst> Napkin: since often it's just that it needs to access the crawl account, or it needs to be able to do a chroot 10:26:44 oh right, I was thinking of a small v:$ change I should float by tohers 10:26:49 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:27:06 ??toehair golem 10:27:06 I don't have a page labeled toehair_golem in my learndb. 10:27:19 don't leave us hanging tenofswords, what is it?! 10:27:20 the very outside ring around the quadrants is extraneous and I want to remove it 10:27:26 ah 10:27:35 you evil man 10:27:42 hrm, that is actually very helpful for running away... 10:27:52 and for random teles to safety 10:27:59 there would still be the cross between the quadrants 10:28:10 yes, but that's often much less safe 10:28:15 yes <3 10:28:24 that's four wide instead of 2 10:28:31 yes less safe might be good here 10:28:38 as long as wardens can seal stairs that seems too cruel 10:28:43 but...but the lower number of safe squares for random teleport... 10:28:49 * tenofswords sighs 10:28:53 <|amethyst> Napkin: but that's what we need a team for, so stuff like that doesn't have to depend on one person getting around to doing it, and one person getting the security right 10:29:19 sounds very good 10:29:21 npm 10:29:25 whoops 10:29:29 tenofswords: what if I have no !speed, /hasting, ?blink, cblink, ?immolation, ?fear, swfit, ctele 10:29:51 "how did you make it to v:5" 10:30:07 there are people who made it to v:5 as formicids... 10:30:08 clearly with shadow creatures and summon demon 10:30:35 problem is, that i'm currently between jobs, have a local setup (hardware) upgrade ahead of me, and rest only when kids are in bed ;) 10:30:37 actually I can't do my beloved straight to vaults route anymore, so that's less likely 10:30:39 pretty much every character runs to the edge and fights the dwindling pack in relative safety...I think this might be a good change 10:31:01 maybe put escape hatches at the ends of the main hallways if it's too much 10:31:14 tenofswords: I am for the V:$ nerf. 10:31:21 hrm, is there a limit to the number of escape hatches? 10:31:22 buff! 10:31:30 since we have I think 6 stairs in the center, 3 stone of course 10:31:32 i'd volunteer to look and think through the stuff, especially the security aspect of separation of duties, |amethyst, but i can't guarantee my constant participation at the moment... 10:31:32 it's made harder, that's a buff 10:31:40 wheals: depends on position :) 10:31:51 there is no limit to escape hatches, this is sometimes very obvious with certain serial vaults 10:31:55 you're on the vault guards side, aren't you! 10:31:58 you monster! 10:32:12 wheals: he already but extra nasty monsters in pan, what should we expect? 10:32:17 Always a monster! 10:32:25 Clearly doesn't want to give us the orb at all 10:32:45 actually, I can't think of a time I didn't buff something in a commit aside from controlling the min/max placements of some lair rune vaults 10:33:00 klowns, antaeus, pan, special rooms, cocytus:$, 10:33:20 labs, zigs, 10:33:24 ??top_buffers 10:33:24 I don't have a page labeled top_buffers in my learndb. 10:33:25 when in doubt, err in favour of the poor monsters 10:33:49 yes, all of these were also "man this stuff is not a threat" 10:34:01 antaeus?? 10:34:02 This guy resides in Cocytus:7 and guards the icy rune. Unlike his demonic counterparts he does not summon and only has cold and lightning bolt spells at his disposal, but he hits like a ton of bricks and has a massive amount of HP. Bring cold resistance, lots of it. 10:34:22 Antaeus (11C) | Spd: 10 | HD: 22 | HP: 700 | AC/EV: 28/4 | Dam: 7512(cold:22-65), 3012(cold:22-65) | 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, amphibious, see invisible, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold++, 10elec++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 15000 | Sp: flash freeze (66d1), b.lightning (3d25) | Sz: Giant | Int: high. 10:34:22 %??antaeus 10:34:29 ...note that first spell. 10:34:37 ik 10:34:48 ??flash freeze 10:34:48 flash freeze[1/1]: A conjuration on Antaeus in 0.14 and a random chance per {blood saint} {legendary destruction} cast. Needs only line of fire and ignores EV, partially irresistible cold damage, decently hurts. Gives a Frozen status that slows the targets movement for three turns, but also blocks flash freeze being cast on said target. 10:34:50 but he wasn't "not a threat" before (though i've never done hells) 10:34:53 is that really how its damage works 10:35:01 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 10:35:01 no, %??monster needs some patches 10:35:07 finite pan? 10:35:16 read backlog 10:35:24 k 10:35:34 <|amethyst> Napkin: part of the idea is to lighten your load too. I want to recruit :) 10:36:11 somebody on coc:$ probably can avoid being in melee range of a speed 10 monster, is the thing 10:37:30 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:37:46 <|amethyst> Napkin: anyway, I'll work on a proposal over the next several days (possibly weeks if my job or something elseoverwhelms me) and send something to CRD 10:38:03 ok, i'll keep an eye on it 10:38:07 thanks :) 10:38:07 Grunt: I know you're busy, but I didn't get a reply to my Dith proposal at all. Do you disagree or just don't care? 10:39:17 I haven't had time to compose my thoughts on the subject yet :| 10:39:29 you can tell me here :) 10:40:23 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Quit: quit] 10:43:21 incidentally barbs claimed their first victim due to not showing a message when dealing damage, which seems a bit unfortunate 10:44:21 MarvinPA, speaking of damage messages, do you know off the top of your head where the setting of "It hits you" to MSGCH_WARN takes place? It wasn't updated for something. 10:44:23 it looks like the first message displayed but was missed, and then there weren't any later ones 10:44:44 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:44:47 it might be spammy to list a message every time, but transparency is more important I guess 10:44:48 hmm i don't but it could be dat/defaults/ 10:45:02 dat/defaults 10:45:07 Why do I always forget that exists :b 10:45:14 yeah: messages.txt, msc += $danger:^It .* you 10:45:58 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:46:15 -!- sanka has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:48:13 re: dith, i've been playing with him a bit in local games. shadow step is fun, umbra is nice for the general "stealth god" feel. shadow mimic, I dont like how it can just trigger for any action, I feel like it should be tied to sneak attacks somehow and generally be less powerful 10:48:23 as for shadow form I didnt get to use it much so I cant comment 10:51:21 As far as I can tell, mikee didn't intend for Dith to be a "stealth god"; he intended for Dith to be a "shadow god" with abilities useful for more than just stabby types. 10:53:32 i don't like mimicking player actions as monster actions generally, since then there are lots of spoilery cases where the monster action is way different to the player one 10:53:44 like lots of conjurations 10:54:24 MarvinPA, just remember, in a pseudo-future that's likely to never come about, I'll eventually rewrite combat for symmetry! (yeah..probably not) 10:54:52 well you'd have to rewrite spellcasting for symmetry too :P 10:54:56 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: well, there are still some things that *shouldn't* be identical for players and monsters 10:54:59 also symmetry is probably not even desirable here 10:55:29 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:56:17 maybe simplifying it to something like shadow ranged attack, shadow melee attack, shadow conjuration, etc, would help 10:56:19 -!- Danei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:56:27 instead of trying to precisely mimic the player 10:58:32 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:00:52 taking a note from battlesphere sounds good 11:03:22 shadowsphere 11:04:20 -!- iFurril has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:04:46 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2328-g18f63ac (34) 11:05:10 Darthmangoes is quite solid now. 11:06:49 re Dith: one things that worries me slightly about shadow mimic is how it is completely invisible... not sure what do about it. 11:07:31 * dpeg is baffled that the potential of xp/2 for spotted monsters goes unseen. 11:07:48 xp/2 for spotted monsters? 11:07:56 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:08:06 The suggestion about displaying an even darker aura on the immediately adjacent tiles seems like a good one. 11:08:08 Lightli: yes, my suggestion for an additional, passive (always on) Dith power. 11:08:20 that sounds...good 11:08:27 Lightli: when you kill the monster, you only get the other xp/2, of course 11:08:38 yes 11:09:04 <|amethyst> dpeg: I'm not good with numbers, but worry that xp/2 might be too high. In principle it sounds very interesting though 11:09:42 |amethyst: well, that comes later. Could easily be too high, I have no clue (I am really bad with numbers for Crawl, and have learned my lesson.) 11:09:46 <|amethyst> might encourage bad behaviour, haven't though that through completely 11:10:13 |amethyst: I thought about that... not so clear how to abuse it properly. If there is a real risk, it's not abuse. 11:10:26 it would make scoring completely degenerate for a little while, but i guess that's already the case in different ways 11:10:37 ackack: it is only one god 11:10:46 right, but if you wanted to score well, you would use that god basically always 11:11:04 but, the current highscores have old summoning, so like i said, i guess it's already the case 11:11:10 yeah 11:11:28 rip old summoning 11:11:43 ackack: isn't for winning games the score from xp marginable compared to speed? 11:11:54 dpeg: right, but the change you're proposing would allow crazy speed 11:12:04 I guess what ackack's saying is that you would be able to get good amounts of exp without killing anything 11:12:12 because now you don't have to do annoything things like kill stuff in order to get functional amounts of xp 11:12:22 half the xp in the game probably gets you very well skilled i'm guessing 11:12:36 this is part of the appeal -- there would still be obstacles, and I don't think it trivialises the game in any way 11:12:50 i don't think it trivializes the game and i think it would definitely be different 11:12:56 but don't get worked up on the factor, could easily be 1/4 11:12:57 my comment was just that it has a weird effect on scoring 11:13:02 <|amethyst> dpeg: I do think it's neat that it encourages two very different, and opposed, things: 1. running from/avoiding fights 2. putting yourself at risk of fights by seeing monsters 11:13:31 for example, you could duck into the Vestible, see Geryon and all the other demons, and then leave 11:13:41 anyway, think about it... gotta get some milk and prepare a c-r-d reply 11:13:44 !seen kilobyte 11:13:44 I last saw kilobyte at Wed Jan 29 15:58:22 2014 UTC (1h 15m 22s ago) joining the channel. 11:13:51 c-r-d? 11:13:59 <|amethyst> dpeg: one possible tweak, if necessary: you must have been theoretically visible to the monster 11:14:17 <|amethyst> dpeg: i.e. there must have been real risk 11:14:21 |amethyst: LOS is symmetric? 11:14:33 |amethyst: oh, I had sleeping monsters in mind 11:14:35 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:14:36 invis, perhaps 11:14:36 I think he means "no invis" 11:14:36 <|amethyst> dpeg: I mean, if you're invis and the monster has no sinv 11:14:43 ah I see 11:14:47 that is a minor point, I don 11:14:50 t care ") 11:15:37