00:02:04 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev 00:02:29 oh, no hangedman 00:02:31 -!- WalkerBoh has left ##crawl-dev 00:03:02 ...o_O? 00:03:23 (now all we need is hangedman to turn up and make some cryptic response) 00:05:59 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-519-g334afa2 (34) 00:09:28 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:28:05 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:33:11 -!- theofias_ is now known as Pedjt 00:35:34 -!- eb has quit [] 00:36:03 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:36:08 -!- djanatyn has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:38:58 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 00:42:13 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:43:06 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:44:06 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:17 -!- pythonsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:52:01 !tell WalkerBoh you do know HangedMan uses aliases now right? 00:52:02 SamB: OK, I'll let walkerboh know. 00:52:35 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 00:53:20 |amethyst: should the spectral weapon only see hostiles in it's summoner's LOS? 00:53:44 im guessing running out of view is due to it having some vision and seeking a target 00:54:09 but before i start making a fix i need to know the intended behavios 00:54:11 <|amethyst> it shouldn't seek a target 00:54:17 <|amethyst> AFAIK 00:54:17 behavior* 00:54:26 ok 00:54:40 <|amethyst> it's supposed to attack when the player does, with the same target as the player 00:55:03 oh so it isnt supposed to be full automaton? 00:55:19 <|amethyst> I suspect it's remembering something (a foe mindex, or a target position) that was set on the previous level 00:55:26 <|amethyst> Naruni: right, it's like melee battlesphere 00:58:41 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:02:03 -!- Croesus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:05:48 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:05:57 Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.14-a0-519-g334afa2 (34) 01:06:08 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 01:07:30 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 01:08:51 it's probably related to the battlesphere thing 01:09:08 where battlespheres unsummon immediately after you descend 01:10:18 ontoclasm: do they use the same code? im having trouble tracking the spectral weapon's behaiours down 01:10:34 same as i had trouble tracking down the battlesphere's behaviour code 01:11:25 i have no clue how they're coded, sorry >.< 01:11:31 but if i had to guess 01:11:45 this arose due to the fact that summons now unsummon when you take stairs 01:12:04 this is somehow causing spectral weapons or battlespheres to forget the player 01:12:20 ah that makes sense 01:12:22 so weapons try to head for you, but they don't remember you, so thaey go towards (0,0) 01:12:34 battlespheres that can't path to their owner just unsummon 01:12:35 so they do that 01:12:51 -!- Venter has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:13:43 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:14:09 that's an easy fix 01:14:15 if that's what they want 01:15:07 -!- TZer0 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:15:58 but i think a battlesphere or spectral weapon should stick with the player through level changes 01:18:00 yeah,i think that was the intent 01:18:04 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-519-g334afa2 (34) 01:18:10 since they're not really summons per se 01:18:22 so they should stick around 01:18:30 -!- TZer0 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:18:39 well, that can explain the problems, i think a summon will chase an enemy 01:18:54 also a summon takes big hits for changing levels 01:19:12 ah, hm 01:19:12 maybe they should be classed as companions instead of summons 01:19:17 yeah 01:19:33 they're more like mercenaries or yred gifts 01:19:38 i guess? 01:19:38 right 01:19:48 <|amethyst> they're supposed to time out though 01:20:05 but should they time out when you take stairs? 01:20:24 (if so that's fine, but they don't) 01:20:26 <|amethyst> I don't know about that, but they definitely shouldn't stick around forever 01:20:33 |amethyst: how much cpu time would there be added by adding a companion flag SPECTRAL || BATTLESPHERE 01:20:50 not much i'd assume 01:20:55 <|amethyst> zero 01:20:58 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:21:00 -!- Tarquinn has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:21:13 <|amethyst> checking it might take CPU time 01:21:25 <|amethyst> but CPU time isn't the primary constraint 01:21:38 <|amethyst> the real question is how much does it complicate the code compared to the alternatives 01:22:26 so instead of making them summons, we make them companions, and a function in companion act function if companion flag == BATTLESPHERE || SPECTRAL_WEAPON run a some_time_expire_code_function 01:22:41 <|amethyst> what does making them companions accomplish? 01:22:55 they dont behave like summons 01:23:03 summons kind of have their own AI? 01:23:09 <|amethyst> huh? 01:23:20 do summons chase targets out of the summoner's LOS? 01:23:47 <|amethyst> they shouldn't, considering that they can't attack things outside of the summoner's LOS 01:23:58 <|amethyst> but companions should 01:24:05 hmm 01:24:33 <|amethyst> the question is, why does it have a target outside of LOS in the first place? 01:25:05 ontoclasm said earlier he thinks it has to do with forgetting owners 01:25:47 so if it forgets owners, it travels to 0,0 01:26:02 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:27:02 <|amethyst> it's definitely losing its target position 01:27:23 <|amethyst> it still has you as "foe" (which really means "what is it following") 01:27:58 <|amethyst> but the target position is 0,0 01:27:59 yeah i dont know where that code is to analyze it's behavior 01:28:19 or how it assumes a target or an owner 01:28:23 <|amethyst> you can use xD in wizmode to get a dump of its info 01:28:48 <|amethyst> mon-behv.cc 01:29:40 <|amethyst> there's even: 01:29:40 <|amethyst> mon->target = owner->pos(); 01:29:41 <|amethyst> mon->foe = MHITNOT; 01:29:52 <|amethyst> in handle_behaviour 01:30:20 <|amethyst> so I guess that isn't being called 01:30:30 i got to mon-behv.cc but then i got lost 01:30:46 at least im on the right track 01:30:53 ill keep looking 01:33:50 <|amethyst> hm, or possibly it's being called while the player is still transitioning levels (so doesn't have a location) 01:33:50 -!- hhkb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:34:12 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:34:44 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:35:11 -!- DracheReborn has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:36:26 <|amethyst> hm 01:37:07 -!- hhkb has joined ##crawl-dev 01:38:28 <|amethyst> oh, it lost its summoner 01:38:43 <|amethyst> it still has you as the target, but not the summoner 01:40:37 <|amethyst> got it 01:40:44 -!- Drache_Reborn has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:45:30 -!- DracheReborn has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:47:06 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-519-g334afa2 01:47:15 -!- hhkb has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:48:02 <|amethyst> !tell ontoclasm it wasn't exactly related to summons poofing, but was related to them keeping track of their summoner 01:48:03 |amethyst: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 01:48:14 -!- Drache_Reborn has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:49:07 -!- hhkb has joined ##crawl-dev 01:49:31 <|amethyst> Naruni: how's your Javascript? 01:49:48 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:52:06 -!- DracheReborn has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:54:01 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:54:07 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:56:54 <|amethyst> Naruni: fixing #7510 (so that command-line editing works in webtiles again) would be nice, but will require more javascript and probably some additional communication among the client, webtiles, and crawl 01:58:45 -!- hhkb has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:58:56 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-520-g79a0f27: Set summoner when copying monster objects (#7521, #7536) 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=79a0f274aba3 01:59:33 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-521-g585ccf5: Increase Borgnjor's Revivification to level 8 10(3 hours ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=585ccf556f9f 01:59:33 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-522-g65f1306: Fix the Tome of Destruction being usable multiple times for free 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=65f13067538f 01:59:36 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:00:21 Cherry-picked 1 commit into stone_soup-0.13 02:02:47 |amethyst: no javascript here 02:03:10 -!- rbthor2 has quit [Client Quit] 02:04:39 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: technically highlevel books can still be (r)ead from their description screen; it just doesn't accomplish anything 02:04:51 <|amethyst> highlevel books for lowlevel characters 02:04:55 aha 02:05:09 yeah, i wasn't certain if i'd remembered every case 02:05:51 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:06:00 oh i guess if you keep it carried and then cross the threshold, then doing that will identify it 02:06:26 <|amethyst> is there really a reason to not identify them immediately too? 02:06:32 maybe they should identify in your inventory when that happens, yeah 02:06:40 oh or you mean just always? 02:06:43 that sounds fine to me also 02:06:49 <|amethyst> always 02:08:19 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:42 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 02:08:45 yeah that'd be good i think, simplifies things a bit 02:10:27 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:20:09 -!- adibis has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:23:27 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:24:39 -!- hhkb has joined ##crawl-dev 02:32:24 -!- keszocze has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:34:15 -!- LittleBrian has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:37:26 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-523-g98e66c8: Allow actions from item description even if there is no room (#7484) 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=98e66c8d7dfa 02:43:53 <|amethyst> Naruni: There's still the other half of 7536: it's possible to get two SWs by taking stairs when it is not adjacent, and recasting on a different floor 02:44:36 -!- LogicNinja has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:45:26 <|amethyst> Naruni: a simple fix would be to make it poof if you leave the level it's on; other possibilities include detecting when two SWs exist at the same time, and expiring all but the newest 02:45:39 <|amethyst> Naruni: or maybe it's even something that could be handled by the summoning cap 02:55:11 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.14-a0-519-g334afa2 (34) 02:57:39 -!- keszocze has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:00:52 <|amethyst> !tell ontoclasm I can't seem to reproduce #7679. It doesn't even look like the same tile as here (where the inside of the arch is opaque and doesn't seem to show blood) 03:00:53 |amethyst: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 03:01:20 <|amethyst> !tell ontoclasm is there something I'm missing about the screenshots there? 03:01:21 |amethyst: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 03:06:19 -!- gammafunk_ has quit [Quit: gammafunk_] 03:06:58 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 03:13:05 <|amethyst> any thoughts on returning off-level ghosts to the bones pool when a game ends? Would that just mean way too many ghosts? 03:14:24 -!- RZX has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 24.0/20130910160258]] 03:15:49 sounds like a good idea to me 03:16:16 too many cowardly people skip ghosts instead of fighting them 03:16:24 going to repeat the comment in other channel that this will lead to greatly increased retention of the truly ridiculous ghosts 03:16:30 and that's -not- likely a good thing 03:17:22 the amount of ghosts on a level is capped... 03:18:01 I'm not sure how that directly relates here unless you're saying that those ghosts will eventually kill so many dudes that they get overflowed out 03:18:31 places where you're underequipped to deal with ghosts happen to have a cap of 1 03:19:38 where would I look for said ghost caps in the code anyway 03:20:36 (and does it actually work like that when ghosts stack up, that the older ones vanish) 03:20:45 we could also compare ghost's xl to level's depth to eliminate that orb run ghost on D:4 03:20:55 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:21:28 cause that, together with griefers with too much time on their hands, are the only two ghost types I consider to be bad 03:23:23 -!- Drache_Reborn has quit [Quit: Bye] 03:23:23 the cap is: 1 on depth 1-10, 10 elsewhere 03:23:44 * kilobyte thought it's more linear. 03:24:10 that actually puts multighosts on a fair number of levels before one really has that many tools to deal 03:24:39 not all that many and it's not so terrible at current of course 03:24:56 on D:11 you can at least run 03:25:29 especially via teleport, or a buggy self-shaft 03:26:01 having an occasional game where you see a terrifying ghost set prelair isn't overly unfair but occasional is probably the key there 03:26:19 Feels pretty hard to get stats on exactly how this would change frequency though 03:29:49 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:32:26 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:38:15 -!- kait has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:46:29 -!- nonethousand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48:05 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 03:50:25 -!- Fortescue|Home has joined ##crawl-dev 03:50:38 -!- F-Glex has joined ##crawl-dev 03:52:17 -!- rax_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:52:34 -!- gio__ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:53:14 -!- buppy has joined ##crawl-dev 03:53:19 -!- LittleBrian has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:53:46 -!- eurtek has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:53:49 -!- mong has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:55:54 -!- rchandra has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:56:00 -!- rchandra1 is now known as rchandra 03:56:27 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:58:33 -!- popx has quit [*.net *.split] 03:58:33 -!- Fortescue has quit [*.net *.split] 03:58:33 -!- GuraKKa has quit [*.net *.split] 03:58:33 -!- Somefellow has quit [*.net *.split] 03:58:34 -!- bitsailor has quit [*.net *.split] 03:58:34 -!- inpho has quit [*.net *.split] 03:58:34 -!- ground4 has quit [*.net *.split] 03:58:34 -!- Giomancer has quit [*.net *.split] 03:58:34 -!- rax has quit [*.net *.split] 03:58:34 -!- G-Flex has quit [*.net *.split] 03:58:34 -!- zkyp has quit [*.net *.split] 03:58:36 -!- inpho_ is now known as inpho 03:59:09 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:59:33 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523_\unfoog 03:59:38 -!- Somefellow has joined ##crawl-dev 04:01:30 -!- Zilis has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:26:15 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:29:35 -!- ais523_\unfoog has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:30:25 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 04:31:01 -!- Dr_Ke has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:31:51 -!- alefury|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:34:41 -!- Dr_Ke has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:09 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:38:36 -!- Zilis has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:39:58 -!- Diabl0658 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:49:14 Can't go down from D:14 by ragelah 04:50:48 ha ha 04:50:48 -!- Diabl0658 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:51:19 there should be some graphical feedback, though. Different looking stairs, for starters. 05:04:13 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:05:03 -!- Diabl0658|2 is now known as Diabl0658 05:05:38 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:08:38 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:10:23 -!- Burer has quit [Changing host] 05:17:53 -!- adityarajbhatt has joined ##crawl-dev 05:18:14 Proposal - rename Halflings to Hobbits. Properties already match up. 05:22:33 adityarajbhatt: halflings _are_ hobbits :p 05:22:47 -!- Diabl0658 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:22:59 "hobbit" is just Tolkien's fancy name, and other fantasy uses "halfling" for copyright reasons 05:31:58 -!- alefury|2 has quit [] 05:32:33 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:41:19 -!- nonethousand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:41:27 -!- trckry has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:46:10 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:49:06 -!- Diabl0658|2 is now known as Diabl0658 05:56:39 -!- keszocze has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:13:27 -!- tureba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:18:05 Oh? I never thought someone would be stupid enough to sue over hobbit, a term as iconic as "Elbereth". But if it is conscious, I have no problem. 06:18:20 Although Hobbit would add a fantasy flavour much needed. 06:18:55 humans should be renamed to "fullings" 06:19:32 "stupid enough"? Or rather "vile enough". The Tolkien foundation is among most litigious bastards. 06:19:46 buppy: <3 06:21:26 there are reciprocal cases: if a quarterstaff is much longer than a whole staff, can you call a matchstick a 10-staff? 06:28:32 -!- Diabl0658 has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 06:30:28 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 06:31:40 -!- Sovek has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:33:00 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:46:21 -!- zoopp has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:48:27 -!- LittleBrian has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:54:21 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:54:52 !seen elliptic 06:54:52 I last saw elliptic at Fri Nov 1 06:51:28 2013 UTC (5h 3m 24s ago) saying '!learn edit tournament[1] s/.tell elliptic.*weird..//' on ##crawl. 07:17:57 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:09 -!- dg___ has quit [] 07:27:27 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:31:58 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-524-ge73499d: Use frenzy rather than berserk on thrashing horrors, as the latter didn't work. 10(6 hours ago, 6 files, 28+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e73499daabc7 07:31:58 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-525-g73b5595: Dj: disallow berserk. 10(6 hours ago, 2 files, 16+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=73b55956c36b 07:31:58 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-526-g0ed792f: Dj: satisfy nitpickers wrt that message about blood. 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0ed792ff483f 07:31:58 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-527-g58b199c: Deduplicate. 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 17+ 20-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=58b199c81ed0 07:31:58 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-528-gd931115: Dj: forbid wielding antimagic weapons. 10(5 hours ago, 2 files, 15+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d931115f92d6 07:31:58 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-529-g045af86: Dj: rescale glow to same levels as everyone else. 10(4 hours ago, 2 files, 3+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=045af862630c 07:31:58 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-530-g9c63442: Dj: make the contam bar show finer details. 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 9+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9c63442f6fb0 07:31:58 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-531-g6762ad6: Make magical contamination grant -Wiz. 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6762ad68fc86 07:31:58 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-532-g75efcb1: Dj: strongly nerf Invo aptitude (+1 -> -1). 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=75efcb1b9c62 07:31:58 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-533-gb797c15: Dj: apply the hover speed penalty only when moving. 10(83 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b797c1590312 07:31:58 ... and 5 more commits 07:34:34 Pimping Dj for 0.14? :) 07:35:08 unpimping, mostly 07:35:31 yes, more preparing 07:35:58 tbh, I understand the rationale of Dj much better than that of LO 07:36:00 what do you think about abuses of flying over water? 07:36:14 hope they can go in (I also think I understand those formicid things) 07:36:28 quite a few races can do that so I'm not sure how strongly I should avoid that 07:36:36 kilobyte: I don't think it's fair to be worried for Dj when Mf and Op could do it for ages 07:36:47 so just let them do it 07:36:54 so would it be ok to turning hover into regular flight? 07:37:05 probably, yes 07:37:33 flight does a lot less than it used to, so i agree it's probably fine 07:37:45 alefury: Hi! 07:37:49 hi :) 07:40:52 There's an interesting comment by ionfrigte on reddit (sorry, cannot link from here) about how the rune lock is way too timid a change. 07:41:47 (He says that the dungeon structure is still the old one of pre-DCSS and not fitting with the current game) 07:43:22 I too would much prefer a redesign of the dungeon rather than a runelock 07:43:23 If you go down that path, you will end up adding an overworld. 07:43:41 I agree about the structure, but I'd go the precisely other way than the rune lock 07:43:48 like an overworld, yeah 07:44:34 but overworld is hard to get right, rune lock is a simple, local change 07:44:50 got to pick up daughter from school, back later 07:45:02 runelock is not simple when you consider the rebalancing it will require 07:47:00 dpeg: ADOM-like overworld would be a bad idea IMO, I'd rather go Diablo 2 style: a mostly horizontal world rather than a stack of small levels 07:47:18 with a large piece of land to explore 07:48:04 buppy: I disagree but the future will tell 07:48:38 kilobyte: have you considered turning djinn into a different race? the essence is neat, but seems overshadowed by all the other stuff. 07:49:54 overshadowed? You hardly notice fire immunity, for casters the game is thoroughly different because of essence and glow. 07:50:26 early game you care about the essence, late game managing glow seems to be more important 07:51:22 I haven't played djinn much, so I probably shouldn't comment 07:51:36 I somehow managed to not get any Dj far enough for ages so I didn't realize how badly out of whack glow formulas are, but I just splatted a DjFE firestormer which was quite eye opening 07:59:42 kilobyte: A large world would be awesome IMO. But then the "Dungeon Crawl" in DCSS would be redundant. :P 07:59:57 Of course we could have various branches as dungeons. 08:00:31 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:07:42 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:06 -!- Crehl has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:15:00 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:20:32 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:52 "hardly notice" fire immunity? um 08:24:05 -!- adityarajbhatt has left ##crawl-dev 08:24:12 -!- adityarajbhatt has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 08:25:09 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:53 -!- robbje has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:29:56 -!- Crehl_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:34:35 -!- LittleBrian has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:36:48 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:53 -!- Croesus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:40:17 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:53:49 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 278 seconds] 08:54:21 -!- johnthebear has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:01:48 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 09:08:35 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 09:08:49 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:08:52 -!- _dd has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:10:38 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:16 -!- WildSam has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:22:41 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 09:26:20 -!- ketsa has joined ##crawl-dev 09:27:47 -!- MaxFrosty has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:36:14 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:40:00 -!- Duke- has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:45:17 -!- keszocze has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:46:02 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 09:48:38 -!- Zilis has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:57:58 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:58:13 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:26 -!- scummos has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:14 -!- Zilis has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:04:30 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:05:34 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 10:11:48 -!- radinms has quit [] 10:13:27 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:19:14 -!- xFleury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 24.0/20130910160258]] 10:19:29 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 10:22:22 -!- Glow has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:24:54 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:30:55 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 10:30:55 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Changing host] 10:30:55 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:31 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 10:34:27 -!- theGIGAN_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:34:35 -!- SaintWacko has joined ##crawl-dev 10:41:55 |amethyst: i can't reproduce 7679 either 10:42:10 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 10:42:15 i got blood under a lab entrance, but it stays static as expected 10:43:07 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 10:47:10 the game is claiming my lava orc has a fast movement speed now, but it still takes 1.0 to move 10:47:18 should the description be updated? 10:47:30 <|amethyst> wheals: which screen? 10:48:12 the A! screen, also there are messages that say "your movements quicken" 10:50:33 <|amethyst> so is there nothing that happens between rF+ and rF++ now? 10:52:43 it says "normal movement speed" on the screen but my movement speed never changes 10:53:00 <|amethyst> Right, fixing that 10:53:20 <|amethyst> I was just wondering if there was any difference now between the bottom of the scale and just below the midpoint 10:53:39 ok, i thought i remembered movement speed changes being removed, and i was wondering why they were still in the description 10:59:23 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:42 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-539-g1d816f8: Remove references to LO movement speed changes. 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1d816f89d8f9 11:00:42 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-540-g6718f45: Remove a few in-code references to LO acceleration. 10(7 minutes ago, 2 files, 0+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6718f452530e 11:07:06 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:10:01 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:11:59 -!- valtern has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:23 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:12:29 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 11:13:09 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:14:45 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:18:39 -!- OneEyedJack has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:19:14 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 11:19:14 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Changing host] 11:19:14 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 11:19:31 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:01 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-541-gfe202b0: Dj: turn hover into regular permaflight. 10(3 hours ago, 12 files, 16+ 65-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fe202b0ca50a 11:20:01 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-542-gd201e36: Dj: double the glow cost of Regeneration. 10(87 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d201e361eac0 11:31:42 -!- Guest9811 is now known as Wensley 11:34:06 -!- tarantoga is now known as rdx 11:47:16 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:47:23 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:48:16 -!- Burer has quit [Quit: Держи гранату, баклан!] 11:50:21 -!- Burer has quit [Changing host] 11:57:44 -!- Flun has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:07:11 Stable (0.13) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13.0-27-gc65393c 12:08:16 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:09:44 -!- Wahaha has quit [] 12:12:54 03kilobyte02 07[dwants] * 0.14-a0-109-g8d0e104: Typo fix. 10(42 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8d0e10466101 12:12:54 03kilobyte02 07[dwants] * 0.14-a0-110-g3bf2884: Assorted formatting fixes. 10(11 minutes ago, 18 files, 26+ 52-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3bf288448a8a 12:17:47 -!- Croesus has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:23:05 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.14-a0-542-gd201e36 (34) 12:24:06 -!- nonethousand has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:11 03kilobyte02 07[dwants] * 0.14-a0-570-gbc5fafc: Merge branch 'master' into dwants 10(3 minutes ago, files, + -) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bc5fafc588da 12:31:54 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Iceweasel 24.0/20130918041159]] 12:34:28 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:35:53 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:36:04 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:30 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 12:39:25 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 12:39:37 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:52 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:44:38 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:45:39 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:48:31 kilobyte: thanks for the dwant fixes! is anything happening with them? 12:49:14 also, would you mind applying this quick patch to them? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=5E6NvEe9 12:50:17 -!- ForgottenBeast has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:52:39 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 12:52:39 oh man 12:52:43 dwant update 12:54:42 does this mean i can play a dwant with crash through large rocks? 12:55:38 03pubby02 {|amethyst} 07[dwants] * 0.14-a0-571-g9f27213: Fix formicid ability descriptions. 10(24 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9f27213edb0e 12:55:44 <|amethyst> I haven't rebuilt the branch on cszo yet 12:56:21 <|amethyst> Your branch is behind 'origin/dwants' by 348 commits, and can be fast-forwarded. 12:56:23 |amethyst: 2 people are playing currently, might not want to do that 12:56:30 <|amethyst> (most of those trunk commits, not dwant commits) 12:56:43 <|amethyst> oh 12:57:21 <|amethyst> cancelled 12:57:40 <|amethyst> Didn't consider that save compat is probably from trunk, not from the branch 12:59:19 -!- ForgottenBeast has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:03:21 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:21 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Changing host] 13:03:21 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:03 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:06:48 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 13:07:10 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 13:11:42 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 13:11:55 -!- Taraiph has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 13:24:43 Taraiph the Slasher (L1 MiBe) (D:1) 13:25:20 !lm * crash -log 13:25:21 5638. Taraiph, XL1 MiBe, T:28 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Taraiph/crash-Taraiph-20131101-182441.txt 13:26:10 So what happens when a dwant self shafts on D:14? 13:27:31 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:27:43 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:29:12 afaik dwant branch doesn't have rune lock? 13:29:27 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:29:52 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:30:36 CKyle: they probably can't, since the level is marked as no-shaft (like branch ends) 13:31:03 <|amethyst> geekosaur: dwant branch just got master merged into it 13:32:37 -!- nonethousand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:33:52 -!- nonethousand has joined ##crawl-dev 13:33:58 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:27 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:41:55 -!- Senjai has joined ##crawl-dev 13:41:55 -!- Senjai has quit [Changing host] 13:41:55 -!- Senjai has joined ##crawl-dev 13:45:39 -!- Yakesh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:46:00 -!- Senjai has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:46:23 -!- Senjai has joined ##crawl-dev 13:46:23 -!- Senjai has quit [Changing host] 13:46:23 -!- Senjai has joined ##crawl-dev 13:48:21 -!- rdx has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:48:22 -!- tarantoga is now known as rdx 13:48:31 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:48:43 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:50:52 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:51:48 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 13:54:31 -!- Taraiph has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 13:55:04 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 14:02:47 -!- SaintWacko_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:04:37 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 14:05:15 -!- Ladykiller69 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:05:28 already overrun by complaints bout runelock? 14:06:11 -!- Senjai_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:06:13 -!- SaintWacko has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:06:59 -!- Senjai has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:07:31 -!- Erppo has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:08:05 -!- Garhauk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:10:22 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:10:29 Is there a dwantlock 14:12:53 -!- emagenta1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:13:17 Cannot pass D:14 unless you're a dwant. Brilliant 14:13:49 are dwants in .14? 14:15:13 -!- Diabl0658 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15:29 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 14:15:47 Ladykiller69: They're still in the experimental branch 14:15:54 awwww 14:20:33 also, whats the reasoning between runelock anyway? 14:20:39 behind 14:24:21 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:27:31 -!- Diabl0658|2 is now known as DIabl0658 14:28:16 Supposedly people are waiting to do the lair branches until after dungeon, which makes them too easy 14:28:29 So this is a particularly heavy-handed "solution" 14:29:03 oookay.... 14:29:16 I know 14:29:36 so when will it be taken out? 14:30:27 * geekosaur in his bleaker moments wonders if this is revenge. "we're going to be everything people accused DracoOmega of being" 14:30:28 -!- SaintWacko_ is now known as SaintWacko 14:30:32 also did anyone mention that, when you go dungeon w/o doing lair branches it also is quite difficult 14:31:24 it's more that there was no reason to get lair branch runes early, since runes do absolutely nothing until you have 3 of them and want to enter zot 14:31:25 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 14:32:54 -!- DIabl0658 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:36 -!- Burer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:38:51 -!- exaltech has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:39:14 -!- mineral has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:40:27 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:42:05 -!- exaltech_ has quit [Client Quit] 14:43:31 -!- ForgottenBeast has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:50:09 -!- ForgottenBeast has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:53:35 -!- ystael has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:54:48 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:55:08 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 14:56:16 !seen dracoomega 14:56:16 I last saw DracoOmega at Tue Aug 27 02:50:01 2013 UTC (9w 3d 17h 6m 15s ago) quitting with message 'Quit: Leaving'. 14:59:35 -!- gammafunk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:04:38 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:03 -!- bisonbisonbison has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:44 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 15:13:45 -!- gammafunk_ is now known as gammafunk 15:14:29 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 15:15:37 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:03 -!- bisonbisonbison has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:19:18 -!- Croesus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:07 -!- Nightbeer has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:18 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:24:59 -!- ark_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:27:41 Deep troll earth mage trying to dig stone wall by Kalma 15:30:25 -!- Valarioth has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:31:09 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 15:36:26 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 15:40:40 -!- Diabl0658 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:41:20 -!- Foamed has quit [Quit: Heading to bed.] 15:46:09 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:46:30 -!- MDesigner has quit [Client Quit] 15:47:43 !seen kilobyte 15:47:44 I last saw kilobyte at Fri Nov 1 12:51:36 2013 UTC (7h 56m 8s ago) saying 'I somehow managed to not get any Dj far enough for ages so I didn't realize how badly out of whack glow formulas are, but I just splatted a DjFE firestormer which was quite eye opening' on ##crawl-dev. 15:48:21 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:52:05 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Client Quit] 15:54:34 -!- LexAckson has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:56:17 -!- Diabl0658 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:56:44 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 16:01:23 -!- mason- has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:09 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 16:10:32 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 16:10:43 -!- bisonbisonbison has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:12:07 -!- nonethousand has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:22:57 -!- rebthor has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:31 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:26:12 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 16:30:29 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:34:42 -!- SaintWacko has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:35:54 -!- Aryth has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 16:43:18 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 16:45:09 -!- slifty has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:47:00 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 16:48:13 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:51:47 -!- F-Glex is now known as G-Flex 16:52:05 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 16:53:36 -!- johnny0 has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:17 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:56:27 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 17:06:55 -!- Croesus has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:10:01 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:11:51 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:13:26 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18:09 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 17:19:19 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 17:25:15 -!- tinybat has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:33:05 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 17:35:44 -!- Danei has quit [Quit: Those who tell the truth shall die, those who tell the truth shall live forever.] 17:39:10 -!- magicpoints has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:04 -!- nonethousand has joined ##crawl-dev 17:44:45 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:47:23 -!- magicpoints has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:21 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Houdoe] 17:53:34 -!- Burer_ has quit [Quit: Держи гранату, баклан!] 17:53:43 -!- magicpoints has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:47 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 18:05:20 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:06:34 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:06:45 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:07:11 -!- zoopp has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:07:16 -!- Snufkin has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:08:43 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 18:09:29 -!- tureba_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:10:06 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:10:17 -!- ark__ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:11:01 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11:01 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 18:11:41 just how OP would oka be if heroism went abofe 27 18:18:03 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:18:34 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:22:13 -!- everett has joined ##crawl-dev 18:24:13 sorry to bother. may any dev look at this? i'm not sure if it's a bug or not. it's a secret vault in 0.13.... i though they were removed long time ago http://i.imgur.com/XSMDwxH.png 18:24:24 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:35 <|amethyst> everett: secret doors were removed 18:24:50 <|amethyst> you're not the first person to complain about that vault 18:24:59 its not technically a bug 18:25:14 <|amethyst> ??lemuel[5] 18:25:14 lemuel[5/7]: I can understand the vault more with divinations in place 18:25:25 its just a lefover vault that steals altairs from the player 18:25:42 <|amethyst> Nightbeer: it does not 18:25:45 If Jiyva altars are stolen from the player, then okay. 18:25:50 <|amethyst> it might steal vaults from the player 18:26:11 oh its exclusively jiyva? 18:26:17 <|amethyst> no 18:26:18 <|amethyst> This isn't an overflow altar 18:26:39 <|amethyst> so it doesn't count towards the "you are guaranteed to get these altars by D:9" 18:26:41 if the vault exists 18:26:45 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:26:47 ah 18:26:58 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 18:27:02 isnt that one filled with monsters? 18:27:02 ok, i was just checking out because i was not sure ^^ thanks 18:27:05 The vault contains darts and a jelly. 18:27:42 but i got no *slurps* 18:28:04 -!- read_ has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:28:20 "You need a rune to go deeper." 18:28:22 well that's new 18:28:27 oh 18:28:31 would it be possible to make this more obvious? 18:28:34 ist there a vault or something? 18:28:38 isnt 18:28:43 they just look like regular staircases, and there's no indication that d:14 is special 18:28:53 thats actually super dull 18:29:30 <|amethyst> G-Flex: that will be fixed 18:29:46 I wonder if runelock will actually go through 18:30:03 actually i have no idea. i just dropped it here because it seemed strange but i'm not a dev. but it seems that it's a known thing. ok thanks bye. 18:30:10 <|amethyst> hm 18:30:27 <|amethyst> oh 18:30:33 <|amethyst> I guess that is the jiyva one 18:30:36 <|amethyst> I was thinking of 18:30:41 <|amethyst> %git 4eabf564 18:31:37 07kilobyte02 * 0.13-a0-3028-g4eabf56: Remove two totally pointless vaults. 10(7 weeks ago, 1 file, 0+ 32-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4eabf5647ede 18:31:37 <|amethyst> those two 18:31:37 robbing players of choice seems like a bad concept to me... 18:31:37 Jiyva is rarely a choice early on. 18:31:37 i'll look for dig and let you know ;-) 18:31:37 bye 18:32:11 -!- everett has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0/20131028112629]] 18:32:28 -!- PolkaDot has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:34:07 -!- valtern has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:33 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 18:37:00 I rather liked my early jiyva once I figured out jiyva 18:37:24 that vault of everett's is not among the two I removed 18:39:12 ??lemuel 18:39:13 lemuel[1/7]: Lemuel Vaults, Inc, supplying your evil vault needs for over 200 years. When it's time for you to stop playing and go to bed, Lemuel Vaults, Inc. is there to end your game "The Lemuel Way"(TM). 18:43:02 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 18:43:05 <|amethyst> so, what to do about jiyva altars with the rune lock? Remove them from all the vaults that can spawn about D:15 (except slime_pit obviously)? Remove the altars but keep the vaults? 18:43:18 <|amethyst> or remove the vaults (or force them deeper) instead? 18:44:39 are altars a problem at all, or just stairs? 18:45:05 <|amethyst> kilobyte: jiyva makes the rune lock kind of trivial 18:45:10 <|amethyst> so I hear 18:45:29 <|amethyst> s/about/above/ 18:45:36 at quite the price tho 18:45:40 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 18:46:02 jiyva makes a lot of stuff trivial. if that's your beef, remove jiyva 18:46:13 yes, if someone plans on going jiyva for a first god (which seems, though I don't have the data, more common now) then the rune lock isn't really a factor 18:46:18 Well, you could treat it like early PDA and do nothing 18:46:28 -!- eb has quit [] 18:46:45 Except I don't know how often Lair gets a Jiyva altar 18:46:58 -!- ForgottenBeast has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:02 somehow I prefer Jiyva over the lock 18:47:06 most of the time afaik 18:47:29 usually, yeah 18:51:25 is there a vault that only contains GDA and a jelly surrounded by translucent stone? 18:52:46 -!- pangaea_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:54:31 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:55:03 -!- everett has joined ##crawl-dev 18:55:11 it looks like jiyva_altar_2 was pointless from the start, though 18:55:42 reporting back. you were right. it was te jiyva secret surlp vault http://i.imgur.com/lr1O6O6.png 18:56:26 everett: it's just Chei being slow 18:56:45 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-543-g0b302e9: Remove a pointless vault. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 14-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0b302e991e1b 18:57:52 oh i see, you removed it. 18:58:26 ok then. back to play. ^^ 18:58:31 bye 18:59:04 -!- everett has quit [Client Quit] 19:03:01 <|amethyst> kilobyte: well, it was slightly less pointless than the lemuel ones 19:03:08 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 19:03:30 <|amethyst> kilobyte: since it would at least give you an altar you're not guaranteed to have elsewhere before D:10 19:03:53 <|amethyst> but, yeah, no objections to removing it 19:04:00 For the time being, I'm considering having D:14 place one downstair (and D:15 one upstair) and possibly making a few vaults around that. 19:04:03 <|amethyst> s/removing/having removed/ 19:04:24 (No matter what happens with runelock, if some of the changes I've heard suggested to mid-to-late-D go through, they might be worth keeping...) 19:04:44 <|amethyst> Grunt: hm, what about hatches? 19:05:05 <|amethyst> Grunt: make all D:14 hatches up instead of down? 19:05:48 Yes. 19:07:33 since killing summoner now abjures their summons, would it make sense to make mass abjuration a level 3 spell again? 19:08:10 <|amethyst> might be simpler overall to make D:15-27 into a separate branch 19:08:19 <|amethyst> then we wouldn't have to special-case things as much 19:08:48 <|amethyst> and it would be easier to make the difficulty more discontinuous 19:09:03 dungeon, deep dungeon, weird dungeon (zot) 19:09:32 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 19:09:37 the Call of Cthulhu game had this one sequence where you fight flying polyps 19:09:54 <|amethyst> Eronarn: so did Metroid :) 19:09:55 they're locked in by huge seals in the ground 19:10:09 you see a bunch throughout the game, but then you find one that's been cracked by a falling stone 19:10:23 and you climb down through it, go through a sort of desolate area 19:10:46 making the rune lock more than just a locked stair, but actually some kind of encounter, would be pretty cool 19:10:52 <|amethyst> buppy: I'm not sure I follow the logic there 19:11:27 <|amethyst> buppy: We made it easier to banish summons; why would that suggest that we make it even easier? 19:11:47 <|amethyst> buppy: Also, sometimes the problem is getting to the summoner 19:15:56 I think he means 19:16:12 making the first way better 19:16:22 so it can keep up with the new way 19:17:53 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:18:02 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:09 yes, mostly that 19:19:14 bolt spells do the same job as mass abjuration except better 19:22:15 -!- Tarquinn has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22:47 I kind of like the idea of banishing summoning itself 19:26:47 kilobyte: have you tried out summoners in tome? 19:26:51 very, very different gameplay 19:32:08 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 19:33:08 |amethyst: im having a ton of trouble tracking down this double spectral weapon bug. ive gotten all the way back to dgnevent.cc and have looked through all the functions of spl-summoning, mon-util, mon-behav, stairs, files(!), mon-ench, and mon-stuff 19:33:57 there are few cases where props.erase("spectral weapon") exists 19:34:38 i think it has something to do with the actual staircase travel 19:35:31 because im noticing battlesphere suffers from the same problems. however battlesphere is told to be destroyed after travelling stairs, but it doesnt get waxed immediately 19:36:42 -!- Croesus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37:03 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:37:19 -!- mineral has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:22 -!- buppy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:36 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 19:39:51 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:40:54 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:44:57 -!- mineral has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:47:15 -!- mineral has quit [Client Quit] 19:47:34 |amethyst: somehow line 2898 if (agent->props.exists("spectral_weapon")) in spl-summoning doesnt return true when the spectral weapon is on another level 19:48:15 but thats where i'm running into the wall, there is nowhere else that props.erase("spectral weapon") happens 19:49:21 -!- mineral has quit [Client Quit] 19:54:17 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:57:57 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 20:00:22 -!- Zermako has quit [Quit: Good night and good luck to all! :D] 20:03:26 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 20:06:38 -!- Diabl0658 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:14 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-544-gd494c00: Place exactly one downward/upward stair between D:14 and D:15. 10(33 minutes ago, 1 file, 21+ 9-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d494c005ca4a 20:07:14 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-545-g8788749: Four small vaults to place around the D:14 stair. 10(88 seconds ago, 1 file, 88+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=878874954a5c 20:09:47 -!- ark_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:11:24 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:14:12 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 20:14:29 * Grunt shoves dpeg into a D:14 stair vault. 20:14:35 <3 20:14:53 What do you guys say to "no Zot traps before the lock"? 20:16:23 (I didn't know they can occur that early but there's good thematic underpinning for the proposal, too.) 20:18:35 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 20:18:45 -!- Wah has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:19:45 -!- Senjai_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:22:42 that may soften the backlash to some irrelevant extent 20:24:49 -!- Diabl0658 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:25:22 Nightbeer: do you really think I am suggesting this to soothe the masses? Preposterous! 20:26:08 why not make it a different branch btw? 20:29:07 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 20:29:17 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 20:29:23 -!- mineral has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:30:49 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 20:31:08 half of the vaults are monsters behind water really 20:31:08 st_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 20:31:15 these look like nice vaults 20:33:03 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:33:07 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:33:29 hey, is dracoomega actually gone from the crawl dev team for real? 20:34:45 because if so, that's a real shame, he was fantastic 20:35:00 WalkerBoh: yes, he is :( :( 20:35:05 damn 20:35:20 Nightbeer: that might come... I don't want to rush it. 20:35:23 i bet i know a lot more people who think he was awesome than who think he isn't 20:35:24 WalkerBoh: absolutely 20:36:23 but I have to say I still doubt the basic idea of it 20:36:34 taking away choice always is a dangerous thing if you want to improve thegame 20:36:46 and you'll have to tweak jiyva 20:36:58 dracoomega is a really friendly guy alongside his great insight and coding skills 20:37:06 alas 20:37:07 Nightbeer: what is this about "removing choices". The very change also _creates_ choices, if you look at it. 20:37:24 you have to elaborate on that one 20:37:38 aren't there like 5 threads on the forum about this? 20:37:38 nonethousand: perhaps, very perhaps, he will come back after a while. Just because Crawl is cool and we miss him or so. 20:37:38 yeah, I don't see a choice either 20:37:47 you mean 20:37:53 dpeg: maybe if we miss him hard enough :) 20:37:57 nonethousand: exactly! 20:37:59 that since you're forced to do a lair branch 20:38:01 dpeg: let him know that there are a lot of people who think he's great 20:38:04 you have to chose which? 20:38:19 yeah, that 20:38:29 which means you've considered dungeon after lair the autopilot? 20:38:30 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38:34 Nightbeer, suppose, just for the purpose of this argument, that doing lair branches early was never a good choice but doing them late made them uninteresting 20:38:48 err, never the optimal choice 20:38:58 your choices with the runelock: die in Shoals, die in Snake, < from D:1 20:39:04 kilobyte, Nightbeer: let me explain. Yes, the lock reduces the game tree for the player, that is obvious. But by forcing players do go where they usually wouldn't go, they have to come up with *more* decisions than before. 20:39:06 possibly miscast-dance a Tloc spell 20:39:32 Where with the classical approach (runes as late as possible) the branch ends produced few tactical choices, now there will be more of them! 20:39:34 so 20:39:40 let me get this straight 20:39:41 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:41:31 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-546-g43343b9: Check the right spot for solidity. 10(71 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=43343b9b518b 20:41:31 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-547-g9cfcea4: Fix fake_pty not passing return codes correctly. 10(11 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9cfcea48e46d 20:41:31 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-548-gda64e55: Show HOSTCC of fake_pty nicer. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=da64e5517304 20:41:34 since lair branches were bad for early levels and cakewalks for late levels forcing them down peoples throats makes them better? 20:41:34 Yes! 20:41:34 how bout makng them better 20:41:34 I know the idea might seem strange but think about it for a minute. 20:41:34 and a viable alternative 20:41:34 nah, complaining about it endlessly is probably the best solution 20:41:34 well there are 2 other options 20:41:34 <|amethyst> Nightbeer: as in make them hard enough that they're a challenge for L20 people? 20:41:34 we should probably keep doing that 20:41:34 =/ 20:41:34 well 3 20:41:34 Nightbeer, "making them better" is a difficult and unclear suggestion right? 20:41:34 first what amethyst said 20:41:34 difficult to impliment, especialyl in how ambiguous it is 20:41:34 which is, obviously stupid 20:41:34 Nightbeer: the problem is that as long as Crawl allows to pick the runes as late as possible, that will precisely be the optimal strategy. "Make them better" is easy to say but not only hard but impossible to do with the current layout! 20:41:47 2nd make dungeon harder so it is just as difficult as doing lair branches 20:42:06 honestly, lair branches are not too hard to do after clearing d1-14 and orc1-4 20:42:07 3 making lair branches as "easy" as you consider dungeon currently 20:42:43 Nightbeer: yes, that is indeed an option. But then you are reducing player freedom indirectly (many games with supposedly "non-linear open world" do this), and it's much harder to get right! 20:42:50 <|amethyst> 4 remove runes altogether 20:42:59 <|amethyst> go straight to zot, collect the orb, return 20:43:03 <|amethyst> everything else would be grinding 20:43:08 but if you get it right the rewards are greater 20:43:10 |amethyst: would you think it'd make the game better? (serious question= 20:43:23 <|amethyst> dpeg: I don't think so, no 20:43:31 and you cant seriously think that XL14 players should fight ghost moths 20:43:49 <|amethyst> !lm . rune=gossamer 20:43:49 3. [2013-09-15 07:25:28] neil the Thaumaturge (L17 GrEE) found a gossamer rune of Zot on turn 43208. (Spider:5) 20:43:51 nightbeer, if you have rPois? sure why not? 20:44:09 <|amethyst> that was L17 with a self-imposed double rune lock 20:44:11 beware criticising the current, infant implementation of rune-lock versus the basic idea 20:44:27 !lm . rune=gossamer xl<16 20:44:28 4. [2013-10-20 21:50:46] WalkerBoh the Brawler (L15 TrGl) found a gossamer rune of Zot on turn 24094. (Spider:5) 20:44:30 the basic idea is good 20:44:31 because clearly if it stays some things will be changed 20:44:37 not brilliant since its too easy to be brilliant 20:44:45 but its the easy way 20:45:13 <|amethyst> dpeg: I do like ionfrigate's suggestion of more radical alterations to dungeon structure, but rune lock could be part of that 20:45:19 tweaking the difficulty of the branches and dungeon until they were independant options would be better 20:46:15 putting rune lock after vaults would still do the job quite well btw 20:46:38 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:46:50 <|amethyst> Nightbeer: so at D:21 20:46:56 -!- slifty has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:46:56 <|amethyst> Nightbeer: that seems a little pointless 20:47:07 |amethyst: well, can you imagine the shitstorm I would've faced if I came up with a more radical proposal? :) 20:47:09 -!- ShadeTornado has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:47:16 <|amethyst> dpeg: right :) 20:47:32 tweaking dungeon seems like the better way imo 20:47:40 <|amethyst> dpeg: I think ideally, rune lock can be removed after it serves its purpose of making us rebalance things 20:48:10 amethyst no actually, it takes rebalancing dungeon out of the option picture 20:48:15 |amethyst: I am not so sure because if we lift it, players will immediately postpone the rune fights 20:48:37 if you remove it then you have to re-rebalance around it suddenly not existing 20:48:46 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:49:28 !log jameyd spider 20:49:29 1. jameyd, XL17 MiBe, T:43797: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/jameyd/morgue-jameyd-20131101-193950.txt 20:49:45 oh sorry, wrong channel 20:49:45 also, I am confident that the dungeon lock can feel very organic: you need a first key to enter the dungeon's deeper branch; you need three keys to enter the Zot house... if, for example, there are no Zot traps in shallow D, some in deep D and many in Zot, that'd make thematic sense 20:49:47 excuse me 20:50:02 hm 20:50:21 dpeg if you're going for thematic stuff also consider a 2runelock 20:50:30 the structure of the game could be tweaked in many ways, and the branch hopping problem too... my point is that the lock is a reasonably simple way to do it 20:50:37 heck 20:50:38 <|amethyst> Nightbeer: sadly there isn't much room for one 20:50:43 D21 20:50:46 heck 20:50:53 you could even put the 3rune lock there 20:50:59 <|amethyst> hm 20:51:29 <|amethyst> actually 20:51:30 <|amethyst> 15 16 17 18 19 20 (21) 22 23 24 25 26 27 20:51:30 well, one step before the first... just saying that the lock could feel completely natural to a hypothetical 0.16 or so newbie... 20:52:14 could also do D:14 (1), Zot:1 (2), Zot:5 (3) but there's really no reason to get ahead of ourselves 20:52:57 if your aim is forcing the game to be rebalanced for the better the whole thing suddenly becomes much more understandable btw 20:54:03 do people really believe the dev team does things to intentionally not make the game better? 20:54:08 :) 20:54:13 having an extra lock in zot would just be weird 20:54:16 WalkerBoh: I am sure in my case some people do 20:54:21 crawl's dev team has been historically excellent 20:54:23 SwissStopwatch: yes, was just talking 20:54:41 I thought of another way to introduce the lock to players: you can consider it like a boss fight in an arcade game. 20:54:57 WalkerBoh: probably what they actually feel is more like "out of touch" than "malicious", I would guess 20:54:57 And players are even free to choose the boss! 20:54:58 dpeg: as long as you don't make a "second loop" 20:55:10 nonethousand: second loop? 20:55:19 ...does that make the D:14 vault a miniboss? 20:55:19 <_< 20:55:23 It looked more like a "this'll fix things" than "this will force us to fix things" 20:55:31 Grunt: well, more the branch end they pick 20:55:31 "Sorry, but the orb is in another Zot..." 20:55:37 yeah maybe SwissStopwatch, i think people just like to complain 20:55:46 Nightbeer: I believe it does both. 20:55:46 well yes, they do 20:56:00 dpeg: in shmups (shoot-em-ups) after you beat the game once often there is a second playthrough with more enemies/bullets and the "real" final boss 20:56:01 SwissStopwatch: yes, reddit has lots of complaints about this 20:56:02 <|amethyst> Nightbeer: it's not exactly that, but the rune lock in its current state is of course not very balanced 20:56:08 -!- mineral has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:56:16 hm 20:56:21 I dont have to care currently 20:56:24 nonethousand: ah, I know. Never been able to beat the second round. But I like shmups. 20:56:27 fr: make mennas appear at the beginning of d:15 every game, he is only pacified with a rune 20:56:29 also, cTele 20:56:30 since my char atm is MiBe 20:56:34 -cTele * 20:56:34 dpeg: cool, cool 20:57:01 also I am against bringing Mennas in to do anything 20:57:15 he'll just fuck things up 20:57:22 it's a soft rune lock 20:57:25 nonethousand: Darius Gaiden had choice of levels but if I say that was an inspiration for the rune lock all hell spring loose on me again. 20:57:27 everything he can get his sword on in fact 20:58:03 fr hyper great thing 20:58:19 put roxanne on the stairs 20:58:24 WalkerBoh: not sure if you're serious but this is a bit like "make D:15- so hard that players will prefer Lair" -- I think that's a more cruel way to achieve what the rune lock does. 20:58:25 nah 20:58:31 roxanne just dies to stasis 20:58:32 <|amethyst> transdimensional hellspider 20:58:33 dpeg: i am 100% kidding 20:58:43 i think the rune lock is a great way to approach the problem 20:58:49 anything i say to the contrary is a joke :) 20:58:54 -!- dondy has quit [Quit: ninja kapow] 20:59:02 maybe this is a bad time for us to be telling jokes I guess 20:59:16 yeah you're probably right 20:59:24 -!- mineral has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:18 anyway, the no-Zot-traps in first half was a serious proposal -- it's minor and mostly about flavour 21:00:32 not bad 21:00:34 |amethyst: tracking down this spectral weapon bug, i need a way to find out what functions the game is calling at different steps 21:00:38 and! 21:00:39 can debugging do that? 21:00:40 dont ever forget 21:00:41 -!- Soadreqm has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:00:46 to tweak jiyva 21:01:00 Nightbeer: why? Do you think Jiyva breaks things? 21:01:08 dpeg: it sounds good, yes... I think kilobyte or someone has previously suggested restricting zot traps to zot itself, which is also reasonable flavor 21:01:11 now, yes 21:01:25 elliptic: that does sound quite reasonable 21:01:25 since jiyva=rune 21:01:35 Nightbeer: lugonu also = rune 21:01:41 lugonu rune is still not free 21:01:42 not as much 21:01:43 WalkerBoh: not really 21:01:43 -!- mineral has quit [Client Quit] 21:01:57 it's just a little harder 21:02:01 elliptic: true, that would work too 21:02:03 but anyway 21:02:08 what I mean 21:02:16 jiyva rune basically should be plausible if you let slimes eat all the stuff from D:1-15, Lair:1-8, Orc:1-4 21:02:22 WalkerBoh: you still have to fight a rune vault... with jiyva you just need to do orc:1 for piety 21:02:41 if people feel like they are forced to go jiyva to get through the rune lock 21:02:51 SwissStopwatch, I think even just orc is often enough 21:03:00 elliptic: that's true, but arguably it can be very hard just to get to jiyva in the first place 21:03:04 personally I think that having the occasional pre-rune lock jiyva altar is fine, but they are rather common 21:03:05 and eventually suffer the consequences if they dont have that much of a jiyva-charakter 21:03:05 yes probably, I don't do Jiyva really but am aware that it's not hard to get the piety 21:03:06 i suppose the same can be said of lugonu 21:03:07 I wouldn't be worried if more players took Jiyva ... random altars are very rare, and if you want to take one in Slime, there's danger 21:03:10 thats BAD 21:03:15 and yes diving Slime:6 is hard sometimes 21:03:16 WalkerBoh: right, the objection is to unguarded jiyva altars 21:03:23 like at slime entrance or D:2 21:03:29 how many characters who can't do a rune branch want to tangle with the stuff in there 21:03:44 dpeg: slime entrance altar isn't "very rare" unfortunately 21:03:45 probably without having a good setup for it even 21:04:03 elliptic: that's easy to tweak if we're concerned -- you think we should? 21:04:39 People feeling forced into going jiyva on a non-jiyva-char and then being upset about it should not happen is what I'm trying to say 21:04:44 I think it is worth tweaking the rarity down, yeah 21:04:48 While I have you guys here: do you think some uniques should not occur in the early half, including lair branch ends? 21:04:57 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 21:04:59 yeah 21:05:08 Nightbeer: yes, but that would --imo-- because they completely overstate the lock 21:05:12 uniques are what sometimes makes lair branches hell 21:05:16 yes, currently you can get boris/mennas etc on snake/swamp/shoals/spider:5 21:05:16 -!- dtsund has quit [Client Quit] 21:05:18 Mennas/Boris/Mara are pretty easy ones to want to shove out there 21:05:19 exactly 21:05:24 (which is probably a good reason to dial Jiyva down) 21:05:25 and that's the only place you can get them before rune lock 21:05:25 jory 21:05:28 and jiyva shouldnt become a noobtrap 21:05:32 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 21:05:53 all of these are very simple changes -- even I could do them =) 21:06:09 -!- WalkerBoh has left ##crawl-dev 21:06:13 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:06:13 elliptic: not me, my idea (briefly in trunk, even) was to restrict Zot traps to /dev/null 21:06:15 I'd also like to see difficulty lowered in the lair rune branches by a bit 21:06:22 -!- mineral has quit [Client Quit] 21:06:28 yeah 21:06:33 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:44 the runelock shouldnt completely fuck nonoptimal charakters 21:06:50 * SwissStopwatch peers at uniques.des 21:06:54 well, I'd personally prefer going the other way, _increasing_ the difficulty to make it consistent with other rune branches 21:07:07 so 3-runers don't always get the same three runes 21:07:18 kilobyte: with the rune lock I mean 21:07:31 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:07:39 keep in mind that if we ship a release with the lock, there'll one or more ways to bypass it, I'm sure 21:07:42 * kilobyte would hate doing balance changes that would then require extra effort to undo. 21:07:46 kilobyte that would actually be a lot more radical than the lock 21:07:49 (so that players can take silver if they're determined) 21:08:01 dpeg might be right about deep D, though 21:08:34 maybe you should be able to bypass it 21:08:41 but not be able to return w/o a rune 21:08:48 kilobyte: the major problem I see with that though is that new players tend to go to lair branches before vaults (because they are earlier) already, and making them vaults:5-lethal seems bad 21:09:14 also dwants 21:09:27 they arent in yet 21:09:32 pity that 21:09:33 this can be solved by moving their entrances elsewhere; I think Orc is badly misplaced too 21:09:54 but selfshafting would collide quite a bit runelock 21:10:06 btw, I have a hunch that orc is so early because you meet monster orcs that early 21:10:36 orc varies greatly in difficulty is the problem 21:10:47 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:10:48 sometimes its entirely appropriate at the place it appears 21:10:59 but other times it's a biiit closer to hell 21:11:02 kilobyte: where would the entrances go? just in D? 21:11:06 that might be fine 21:11:10 (exaggaration ofc) 21:11:11 Nightbeer: yes, I know 21:11:11 how early orc is tends to be pretty weird, it's likely to be a player's first lesson in skipping floors if a unique isn't depending on what entrance you get 21:11:59 in my opinion you shouldnt be able to reach a branch that you cant do 21:12:11 well that would be hard to pull off 21:12:12 elliptic: or even in a random place 21:12:16 to some extent at least 21:12:35 alternately easy to pull off because certain people are fond of proving that these branches are -all- doable early 21:12:41 if you bring enough speedruns in there, anyway 21:12:43 the main reason for having Orc entries shallow I heard is that the entry vaults would be boring when placed deeper 21:13:06 dial up the entry vaults then I suppose 21:13:07 which can be rather easily solved 21:13:11 is there anything else? 21:13:19 kilobyte: I always thought of it as an early gold source 21:13:26 well 21:13:36 you cant spend the orc gold before doing orc really 21:13:45 for the most part at least 21:13:51 Nightbeer: sometimes you want to do precisely that 21:14:31 dpeg: by that do you mean "I got an early shop and want to get something from it" or "I need to find shops early on this char"? 21:14:48 actually 21:15:02 SwissStopwatch: I only did when I found an early item I want to buy 21:15:07 it would be a good idea to have something like with the altairs with shops 21:15:10 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:11 so part the first, then 21:15:17 yes 21:15:26 dpeg: 5 out of 21 entries have gold 21:16:00 yes, but sometimes I need moooore :) 21:16:27 Orc:1 itself is a "fairly" safe way to get a few hundred gold, but in general it's true that gold is not often spendable at the point of the really early Orc depths, like D:6 21:16:28 -!- rdx has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The alternative IRC client] 21:17:18 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:18:06 <|amethyst> hm... I wonder what is the expected number of shops before D:11 21:18:13 kilobyte: it's not just that the entry vaults would be less interesting if placed deeper, but also that it's good to have some orc vaults earlier 21:18:38 elliptic: they cloud be split from entries 21:18:39 kilobyte: obviously this is solvable also though, and in general I'd be in favor of moving orc entrance at least to D:8-13 21:18:41 right 21:18:47 isn't it (chance per shop) * 3, so 0.2 * 3 = 0.6 ? 21:19:26 (chance per shop) should be: (chance for shops) 21:19:37 (I don't know if you wanted to move them even deeper, or if being at the same depth as lair on average is sufficient) 21:20:05 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:21:38 Well, the question is: do we want players to be reasonably safe entering the branch, or conquering the branch? I think only the first is reasonable, and then Orc doesn't have to move so much. 21:22:10 dpeg: I entered Orc:1 in sight of a stone giant once 21:22:39 we could of course make orc:1 easier 21:22:39 yes, there are also stories about orc warlords :) isn't that similar to entering Lair and being greeted by a hydra? 21:22:43 or that 21:22:45 <|amethyst> hm, assuming only serial shops, looks like 0.2 * (5/6 + 3.5/6) = 0.3 per level, so around 3 by D:11 21:22:47 ??welcome 21:22:47 welcome[1/3]: Welcome to the Lair of Beasts! A crocodile, a hydra, 4 blink frogs, a player ghost and a bat come into view. 21:22:48 not really, hydras don't have ranged attacks 21:23:04 lair is also far far safer to teleport in 21:23:17 yes 21:23:54 -!- ophanim has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:24:38 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 21:25:37 I'm making a fairly large technical change to allow moving branch entries around 21:25:51 kilobyte: do it; I've been meaning to do that for a while. 21:26:02 <|amethyst> what do you mean by moving around 21:26:05 currently even stuff like having Tomb entry be in Crypt/Forest takes hacks 21:26:09 okay, guess I'm demoting those uniques from Swamp/etc:5 right now unless someone objects 21:26:33 <|amethyst> dpeg: what's the list? 21:26:51 <|amethyst> also, maybe lamia could be nerfed a little bit 21:26:54 |amethyst: I'll store a level_id, saving them with the game. 21:27:13 * kilobyte would just have an accident happen to Lamia. 21:27:15 <|amethyst> kilobyte: Oh, you mean 'moving around' branches 21:27:26 yes lamia is still pretty nuts even after the first nerf I guess 21:28:06 she's not that interesting either 21:28:11 <|amethyst> Also, now is maybe a good time to improve swamp loot 21:28:38 |amethyst: why does swamp loot need improving? it has more than snake already I think? 21:28:43 <|amethyst> it does? 21:28:49 |amethyst: Boris, Frederick, Jory, Margery, Xtahua, Mennas 21:28:51 <|amethyst> snake has lots of weapons 21:28:57 put Sojobo on that list 21:29:10 I guess that's true that nagas have equipment 21:29:10 I would suggest, since he's.... well 21:29:14 Sojobo (09H) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 20 | HP: 150 | AC/EV: 2/22 | Dam: 28, 14, 14 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, spellcaster, see invisible, lev, DMsl | Res: 06magic(133) | XP: 5528 | Sp: b.lightning (3d24), wind blast, airstrike (0-50), air elementals | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 21:29:14 %??sojobo 21:29:22 the weapons aren't great but the robes/shields often are 21:29:38 I meant that some swamp vaults already place loot 21:29:47 which is more than what snake vaults do 21:29:52 <|amethyst> hm 21:30:05 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:12 SwissStopwatch: yes, forgot Sojobo 21:30:27 spider doesn't have loot aside from the ambrosia, which is somewhat dubious as loot goes 21:30:43 <|amethyst> a radical-ish (and poorly-thought-out) idea: all four lair branches 21:31:03 (can we remove ambrosia maybe? it seems like a lot of complication for something that you can only get in one place) 21:31:03 <|amethyst> "you complained about reduced choices? here you go" 21:31:13 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:31:35 <|amethyst> do people use ambrosia? 21:31:39 Ambrosia is only good for one race. 21:31:50 |amethyst: the DgCj I splatted recently used ambrosia. 21:31:50 Djinn, who find themselves regenerating at stupid fast rates after eating it. 21:31:51 all four lair branches and remove demonic/abyssal runes :P 21:32:00 I think I've used ambrosia once but it's not really much different than just a weird potion of magic 21:32:02 |amethyst: what to do with all four lair branches? 21:32:08 a worse potion of magic also probably 21:32:13 |amethyst: I use it very occasionally but basically what SwissStopwatch just said 21:32:13 <|amethyst> dpeg: have them in every game 21:32:18 |amethyst: power creep! 21:32:38 <|amethyst> dpeg: shorten them to three levels each, and cut a few levels of D too :) 21:32:41 could certainly chop floors off each branch if there - yes 21:32:48 what power creep 21:32:57 the experience you'd gain there is minimal 21:33:11 the DracoOmega XP change also already set power creep back a fair bit of course 21:33:14 (power creep: a dev who gets drunk on their commit authority) 21:33:17 (a creep with power!) 21:33:18 it would be more loot though 21:33:22 Bloax: if the xp is minimal, why do people tell me that "with the rune lock, players enter D:15 overleveled"? 21:33:28 lair branches have a *lot* of loot already with 5 levels 21:33:39 but it is about loot more than xp 21:33:51 dpeg: Because now they really want to be sure about being ready for the bottom floors now. 21:34:08 like that wasn't already a concern 21:34:26 a concern, but not all that significant a concern, granted 21:34:35 okay, I'll edit uniques.des and go to sleep 21:35:06 |amethyst: I think for strategic purposes, two lair subbranches is better than four (greater variety among games) 21:36:15 <|amethyst> BTW, it would be nice to have a way to say "the rune lock level" (and +1) in .des files 21:36:30 true but I cannot help you there :) 21:36:58 |amethyst, dpeg: by making it its own branch! 21:37:04 (that would remove a lot of the need for hackiness) 21:37:06 <|amethyst> dpeg: maybe snorg could have his range increased to include S:$ ? 21:37:09 Grunt: yes 21:37:17 |amethyst: just a moment 21:37:58 <|amethyst> dpeg: and rupert and the similar ones... not sure if it would be good or bad, just brainstorming 21:38:54 given that they're already in those branches earlier it probably isn't that good or bad either way 21:42:11 -!- Brokkr has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:17 |amethyst: yes, it looked strange how some of those are exempted from the end 21:43:26 will enable them unless I hear a good reason why not 21:43:48 <|amethyst> dpeg: oh, it wasn't on your list, but Mara 21:44:09 <|amethyst> dpeg: Elf:$ mara is probably fine, but Swamp:3 mara might be a bit much 21:45:06 03dpeg02 07* 0.14-a0-549-gf5560fb: Exclude certain uniques from Swamp/Snake/Shoals/Spider ends. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f5560fb25bf0 21:45:08 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 21:45:48 Mara (13R) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Dam: 30 | 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(144), 05fire++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 4614 | Sp: blink; mislead, b.fire (3d27), mara summon, illusion, pain (d17), 04esc:teleport self | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 21:45:48 %??mara 21:46:20 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:46:59 -!- adibis has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:48:37 yes I'm a little surprised Mara isn't on that now that I look again 21:49:09 I think he's definitely worse than about half the ones there 21:49:17 Uniques with Swamp:1/2-4 currently: Kirke, Louise, Nikola, Norris, Roxanne, Rupert, Snorg. 21:49:25 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:49:30 Anyone in this list we don't want on Swamp/etc:5 ? 21:50:19 hm, I don't feel competent enough to decide Mara's Swamp fate -- you guys do it :) 21:50:22 probably Nikola/Louise are the most dangerous of that bunch by a lot 21:50:52 yes, Nikola might make people turn around 21:51:05 (also rely on loot more than the rest) 21:51:06 I'm not sure the other ones really are unfairly dangerous, certainly Norris and Rupert can kill some people fairly well depending 21:51:24 * dpeg has died to everyone already. 21:51:25 <|amethyst> SwissStopwatch: does that mean "most deserves to appear on S:$ too", "least deserves to appear on S:$ too", or "most deserves to appear on S:$ only"? 21:51:33 but Rupert is not unfair for that depth certainly, I mean he already appears in Lair and is plausible to handle there 21:51:46 !lm * uniq=rupert min=xl 21:51:47 34978. [2011-11-01 05:19:49] Sky the Covert (L7 SpEn) killed Rupert on turn 1888. (D:14) 21:51:54 will do everyone but Louise and Nikola 21:52:14 dpeg: wait, what? 21:52:27 why would you make the more dangerous uniques not generate on 5? 21:52:39 5 is supposed to be harder than 4, I thought :P 21:52:39 elliptic: pity with players! 21:52:58 putting weak uniques late is not very much fun 21:53:02 |amethyst: I just was thinking in terms of strength at that point, hadn't yet translated into "what to do with them" 21:53:04 You aren't the one who hears "dpeg is ruining my game for good" all day =) 21:53:45 (I'm fine with putting all of those uniques on 5, but just putting the weaker ones seems arbitrary) 21:53:48 at any rate I'm not sure any of those uniques need to be knocked out of their current range, Louise and Nikola could certainly go into 5 21:53:53 elliptic: my idea was this: now that I removed the extremely dangerous formerly-Swamp-end-only uniques, I'd enable the Swamp:1-4 uniques on Swamp:5. 21:54:00 right 21:54:02 cool 21:54:07 I am fine with dead players. 21:54:14 1learn add dpeg 21:54:15 would simplify stuff a bit, yeah 21:54:34 * kilobyte mutters something about Lamia existing, again. 21:54:48 for mara, I wouldn't mind bumping mara down to D:20+ and not in lair branches 21:54:57 the only ones that make me nervous are nikola and lamia 21:54:57 ontoclasm: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 21:54:57 I also don't mind having mara being an outlier though 21:55:16 mara isn't actually that dangerous, people are just irrationally afraid of him 21:55:18 for lamia, does anyone have any ideas for making lamia interesting? 21:55:19 !message 21:55:21 Lamia (06N) | Spd: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 18 | HP: 200 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 40, 1203(constrict) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, 04eats corpses, fighter, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 4706 | Sp: destruction orb (9d16), mesmerise, haste, poison arrow (3d25), 04esc:teleport self | Sz: Large | Int: high. 21:55:21 %??lamia 21:55:34 I agree lamia is pretty boring (and very strong) 21:55:35 Blink others close 21:55:38 elliptic: i liked when she had a band 21:55:42 mara kind of is pretty dangerous, but that is -very- dependent on your character I think 21:55:46 maybe she could use buffs 21:55:47 oh, she doesn't have a band now? 21:56:01 no, she's alone now (because the band was too lethal) 21:56:03 I tend to assume that she wandered away from the band :P 21:56:12 the more skewed you are towards offense over defense the more likely maraclone will be a huge problem for you 21:56:15 the band never seemed very relevant personally 21:56:29 but she could have a band and do things that use it, instead of just nuking you for tons of damage 21:56:44 mass might 21:56:46 well the band was kind of dangerous because it was a large grouping of greater nagas and etc 21:56:50 <|amethyst> she ate the band, obviously 21:56:52 but in some ways it made -her- less dangerous 21:57:12 it's good for snake to have one "signature unique" to balance out arachne/TLH/ilsuiw, anyway 21:57:14 because if you saw a greater naga outside snake:5, it maybe was a good sign to find somewhere else to be 21:57:32 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 21:57:38 if you wanted to remove Lamia, you could somewhat retool Aizul into a snake signature probably 21:57:46 that could work 21:57:56 lamia's a cool unique, she could just stand to be slightly less murdery 21:57:57 TLH is something rarely happens 21:58:08 kilobyte: more often now 21:58:13 ontoclasm: you're not helping! :p 21:58:17 (fr: make Lerny spawn on Swamp:5 if the ending doesn't place him.) 21:58:20 because every swamp vault designer seems to shove TLH in 21:58:28 elliptic: there are only two vaults that place TLH! 21:58:38 :J 21:58:40 i never help 21:58:42 yes isn't he just in 2 otherwise boring swamp endings 21:58:49 !messages 21:58:50 (1/1) |amethyst said (1h 37m 51s ago): great orb of eyes needs a mouth 21:58:56 The one with the ugly things and the one with the doors? 21:59:00 Grunt: well, people wanted to add TLH to the others :P 21:59:04 great orb of mouths???? 21:59:06 or am I badly misremembering how they all are 21:59:07 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: (because it has a bite attack) 21:59:16 03dpeg02 07* 0.14-a0-550-gdd622f3: Enable some other uniques on Swamp/etc branch ends. 10(74 seconds ago, 1 file, 7+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=dd622f383dd9 21:59:18 ontoclasm: The great orb of eyes bites you! 21:59:25 clearly it's an eyebite 21:59:37 * ontoclasm puts on sunglasses 21:59:49 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: it could take eye of draining's mouth 22:00:14 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: 21:20:58 < Varren> I'm going to choose to believe that it bites me with its eyelids. 22:00:38 hm, any thoughts about moving norris to D:14-19 like those other uniques? 22:00:49 and Swamp rather than Swamp:2- 22:01:07 he's dangerous but no more so than nikola/louise/rupert 22:01:13 he's certainly not stronger than nikola 22:01:21 and it would be simpler 22:01:21 Swamp:1 and Swamp:2- is an artefact of old absdepth 22:01:25 right 22:01:25 yes 22:01:35 could be simplified 22:02:28 <|amethyst> others at S*:2- : Frances, Jorgrun, Saint Roka, Wiglaf 22:02:52 Roka is okay (considering how often he turns up on Orc:4). 22:02:53 I understand S:2-5 more than S:1-4, tbh 22:02:53 * ontoclasm makes a note to redraw frances 22:02:59 |amethyst: what are those at in D? 22:03:18 <|amethyst> elliptic: 17- 22:03:45 <|amethyst> elliptic: and Elf:2-, VCFBT 22:03:48 4 am, gotta sleep... thanks for putting up with the lock, folks... and feel free to subject zot traps to D:15- 22:03:58 <|amethyst> and orc:$ for roka of course 22:04:18 maybe they should be S*:3- 22:04:58 -!- reaver has joined ##crawl-dev 22:05:00 <|amethyst> dpeg: night 22:05:07 <|amethyst> or morning 22:05:23 good night, bad morning! 22:06:52 I read about Jiyva on the logs and wanted to mention the problem could be solved by moving the Slime Pits entrance past the Rune Lock. 22:07:43 ...er, how? 22:07:45 it's not necessarily bad that slimy rune is sometimes an option for that though 22:07:50 reaver: we also talked about making jiyva altars more rare 22:08:12 I'd leave things as they are and see how strongly players flock towards the slime god 22:08:46 Grunt: In grunt_runelock_giant_problem there's a stray comma, in case you didn't catch that 22:08:49 dpeg: Of course leaving the status quo is best if it isn't a problem. 22:09:04 -!- alefury has quit [] 22:09:07 Grunt: Not that I have anything against commas 22:09:13 moving slime out of lair isn't necessarily a bad idea anyway though, since a lot of new players are confused and think that it is similar to swamp/shoals etc 22:09:18 starting with s doesn't help :P 22:09:21 reaver: I honestly don't know. I wouldn't want to change gods on Slime:1, I think. 22:09:28 gammafunk: oops <_< 22:09:51 this sounds like a giant problem with the runelock vault 22:10:07 elliptic: it is a small problem with a giant problem :b 22:10:23 I finally caught Grunt making an error. Now I can die in peace. 22:10:27 themewise (Slime = old civilisation overrun by slimes) the branch could also sit in/near Vaults 22:10:49 put slime entrance inside Blade! 22:10:54 haha 22:10:57 Replace Blade with Slime <_< 22:10:59 the slimes sometimes come out and eat the dancing weapons for food 22:11:21 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-551-gf657b8e: Fix a small problem with a giant problem. 10(47 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f657b8ea116b 22:11:23 (it's really a farm) 22:11:24 <|amethyst> Grunt: I'm not sure I follow how that keeps the stone giant on the island 22:11:25 ...hm, I didn't put (gammafunk) on that commit message :( 22:11:39 Grunt: It's ok, there's always gloating in webtiles 22:12:59 <|amethyst> Grunt: if that's the intent, shouldn't it have patrolling? 22:13:06 |amethyst: oops 22:13:29 (this is why I should not throw together vaults in a semi-hurry) 22:13:44 <|amethyst> "Fix a bigger problem with a giant problem." :P 22:13:56 "slightly larger problem" is how I'm woring it :b 22:13:58 *wording 22:14:00 <|amethyst> :) 22:14:01 (wow, I can't type tonight 22:14:03 ) 22:15:36 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-552-ge4f419b: Fix a slightly larger problem with a giant problem (|amethyst). 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e4f419b36e32 22:16:05 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 22:22:03 -!- reaver has quit [] 22:31:16 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 22:35:42 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:36:27 <|amethyst> hm, nicolae_elemental_shop is supposed to randomly shuffle the elements, right? 22:37:27 <|amethyst> oh, I misread 22:38:53 <|amethyst> (it does; I just forgot that Lua lists are 1-indexed) 22:46:54 -!- gammafunk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:48:59 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:58 <|amethyst> re balance, eb suggests just eliminating D:15-20 ("move d:21-27 to d:15-20") 22:59:52 <|amethyst> to make post-runelock D not so easy 23:00:13 FR: let's shorten branch enums: BRANCH_HALLS_OF_ZOT -> BRANCH_ZOT, and so in 23:00:25 <|amethyst> ++ 23:00:53 |amethyst: that would be strange because V:1 is already easier than D:21, let alone D:26 23:01:00 (also stuff about xp balancing) 23:03:33 <|amethyst> Put D:15- somewhere in Vaults :P 23:04:02 <|amethyst> err, I mean 23:04:12 <|amethyst> (and not quite seriously) 23:04:53 <|amethyst> runelock -> V -> Forest/Crypt/Blade/DeepD 23:05:27 Vestibule of the Dungeon 23:05:36 with those branch entries 23:05:37 <|amethyst> with something at the bottom of forest 23:05:37 horn of Sigmund 23:05:50 ...hm, who's a more iconic mid-D unique :b 23:05:53 <|amethyst> kilobyte: could put one in each quadrant of V:5 23:06:09 <|amethyst> well 23:06:16 <|amethyst> not V:5, that's too late 23:07:17 <|amethyst> the problem is that it would feel more linear than currently 23:07:40 <|amethyst> for someone not doing 15 runes 23:08:10 <|amethyst> maybe, I dunno 23:08:53 -!- Valarioth has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:09:50 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:11:57 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 23:13:24 dpeg: I'm pretty down on the runelock. It seriously disrupts how I play crawl 23:13:37 I'm probably hit harder than most players because I'm so bad 23:14:21 <|amethyst> I'm bad enough that it doesn't disrupt how I play crawl 23:14:38 <|amethyst> I did those branch ends early anyway, when I get that far 23:14:55 |amethyst: can you help me with some debugging of spectral weapon function? 23:15:28 <|amethyst> Naruni: sure, give me a few minutes 23:15:36 ok thanks 23:17:10 -!- gammafunk_ has quit [Quit: gammafunk_] 23:18:54 !lg . won sp 23:18:55 1. bh the Blademaster (L23 SpCK), worshipper of Lugonu, escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2010-10-03 11:48:05, with 1359857 points after 151888 turns and 12:39:57. 23:23:25 <|amethyst> Naruni: what's up? 23:23:36 <|amethyst> Naruni: you asked about debugging? 23:23:37 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 23:24:11 -!- Croesus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:24:19 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:25:10 |amethyst: so i think the problem may be find_spectral_weapon is not returning a monster object if the spectral weapon is on another level. i was stepping through the gdb with old_mons on display. old_mons had a value, up until find_spectral_weapon returned to cast_spectral_weapon and now old_mons is 23:25:46 <|amethyst> monsters on other levels don't exist 23:25:49 so i tried recompiling with make -j2 -O0 TILES=y DEBUG=y and i got an invalied options O and 0 23:26:06 |amethyst: ah so thats why it is allowing the second one to be created 23:26:36 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:27:05 <|amethyst> Naruni: right... I think the options are 1. poofing it when you leave the level without it or 2. poofing it immediately when you return to the level and have another SW 23:27:59 |amethyst: preventing a successful cast if there already is one by reading you.props is not an option? 23:28:11 (or agent.props) 23:28:34 popping it when you leave level is a good solution IMO 23:28:38 i can write that in 23:28:49 <|amethyst> Naruni: the off-level one doesn't time out while it's off-level either 23:29:14 <|amethyst> Naruni: so if you did that and left a SW behind on D:3, you wouln't be able to cast the spell again until you go back to D:3 23:29:31 <|amethyst> which could be a problem if you fled the level to get away from a dangerous unique 23:29:32 |amethyst: yeah thats a bad situation 23:29:53 <|amethyst> also, if it did get out of sync in another way, you could be permanently barred 23:30:41 <|amethyst> ideally that wouldn't happen, but magifying bugs isn't good (unless you turn them into a crash: that often is good) 23:30:51 <|amethyst> s/crash/assertion failure/ 23:31:45 Dazzled monsters and harmful clouds. by dck 23:31:54 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:32:49 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:52 well that was a lot easier than i made it out to be :) 23:33:42 wait 23:33:53 it should still be able to follow downstairs though right? 23:34:45 <|amethyst> right 23:36:06 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:36:39 -!- Nomi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:37:29 <|amethyst> The difficult part will be finding the appropriate point to do it (after you know whether the SW is going onto the follower list; but before you save the level). 23:37:54 <|amethyst> Probably can't do it during saving the level, because you don't want ctrl-s to kill your SWs 23:38:38 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7536 23:38:41 <|amethyst> doing it while you build the follower list might have problems, but it might work 23:39:27 <|amethyst> Naruni: nice! 23:44:42 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 23:46:57 -!- tkappleton has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:51:29 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 23:55:17 |amethyst: i might have the targetting bug fixed too, compiling now 23:59:11 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]