00:00:38 Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12.2-13-gffed442 00:06:11 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2531-g2ad9301 (34) 00:07:21 -!- Gamesmaster1965 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:08:25 Stable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12.2-13-gffed442 (34) 00:11:09 -!- Napkin_ is now known as Napkin 00:11:31 -!- paulsomebody has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:13:05 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 00:13:26 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2531-g2ad9301 (34) 00:14:38 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:16:50 -!- Villadelfia has joined ##crawl-dev 00:21:39 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:22:20 -!- knaveightt has quit [Quit: Pull the pin and count to what?] 00:25:04 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:32:14 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:38:08 -!- Tarquinn has joined ##crawl-dev 00:39:17 -!- LoremIpsum_ is now known as LoremIpsum 00:40:35 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:46:09 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2531-g2ad9301 00:48:29 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 01:00:33 -!- flowsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:02:41 -!- Bron has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:04:55 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 01:05:13 !seen |amethyst 01:05:14 I last saw |amethyst at Fri Jul 26 03:06:49 2013 UTC (2h 58m 24s ago) saying 'no idea why it was crashing' on ##crawl-dev. 01:05:50 I sent him a message an hour and a half ago, too 01:06:46 so he's not around 01:07:43 ah. I'm wondering if any of the DGL servers are willing to turn on turn 0 wizmode 01:08:43 there was some concern about exploitable wizmode bugs 01:08:45 wizmode allows a slew of dumb things, so I can imagine why they'd hesitate 01:08:47 yeah 01:09:04 you know, possible buffer overflows and such 01:09:27 which would allow screwing with others' saves or rcs or something 01:10:04 right, which would be very bad. 01:10:45 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:11:07 why do you want 0day^H^H^H^H^H turn 0 wizmode anyway? 01:11:55 -!- flowsnake has joined ##crawl-dev 01:12:10 he obviously wants to make wizmode less buggy 01:13:15 -!- Tarquinn has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:15:18 less buggy wizmode is one reason. The other reason is that I think it's good to let players test stuff out 01:18:29 and I love remote exploits :-P 01:18:47 could we run it in a different container/chroot on a different subdomain? 01:18:56 eg wizmode.s-z.org 01:19:45 or on a different server entirely, such that any exploits can't mess with "normal" saves and such? 01:20:11 honeypot.s-z.org 01:22:32 Zannick: pretty soon you're going to suggest an ad hoc specified configuration language documented in Swedish, transliterated into Japanese before being translated to English by someone who only speaks Swiss-German 01:24:32 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 01:24:57 i prefer to only read english translated by someone who doesn't natively speak the origin language or english 01:25:30 ProzacElf: you might be able to get that done on Mechanical Turk 01:25:38 we have this abysmal pirated version of Star Ocean EX 01:25:41 heh 01:25:52 (it must be pirated or how else would the subtitles be so bad) 01:26:01 administer an "English language test" to workers and only accept the people who fail it 01:26:04 how bad are we talking 01:26:20 well, SOME of the episodes weren't TOO awful 01:26:31 well those aren't the ones I care about 01:27:11 The best is when the subtitles are so bad they change the plot 01:27:11 but it sure seemed like it must have been translated by way of chinese, and like each episode was done by different people ... 01:27:28 Kung Fu films tend to have awesome translations. 01:27:29 like, the characters names were spelled differently in different episodes 01:27:43 Bad-Movie-Translation crawl could be funny 01:27:53 heh 01:27:57 -!- GuraKKa1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:59 yeah, one time my brothers were watching some bad kung fu movie, and they said the dub and subtitles had much different translations 01:28:03 "Sigmund announces, 'Who adventures there!?'" 01:28:13 and at the end, one of them said the hero became a famous revolutionary 01:28:21 and the other said he just ran off with some woman 01:28:26 i had a bootleg copy of some evangelion episodes from hong kong 01:28:29 not that the plot is at all important in those movies. 01:28:47 SwissStopwatch: Master of the Flying Guillotine defies your characterization 01:28:50 and the subtitles not only managed to convey no sense, but they went by faster than anyone could legitimately read 01:28:53 without freeze framing 01:29:00 i mean, evangelion makes no sense to begin with 01:29:12 but badly translated it's like someone with wernicke's syndrome 01:29:42 Master of the Flying Guillotine is really the best 01:30:14 SamB: do you think there's room for 'mundane' fixedarts? Like ones with off item-type brands, but not unique mechanics 01:30:53 I think we already have some fixedarts without special functions? 01:31:41 though I have to admit, the idea of {*Confuse, Clarity} on an item really amuses me :) 01:31:48 most fixedarts are really sort of boring in that sense 01:31:49 there are a good number that don't have unique mechanics 01:32:05 a lot of them don't even have off-type brands i think 01:32:07 SwissStopwatch: I've been wanting to reuse the tile from the Jester's starting cap 01:32:13 Arga is just a normal axe that happens to be really good (and even more so now) 01:32:14 i like that tile 01:32:19 yeah I remember you telling me this 01:32:20 anything that uses it i will support 01:32:33 I think I suggested antiwizardry or something 01:32:36 {-2/-3 Int, ???} seems the most obvious 01:32:39 oh god, that's mean 01:32:54 Is there an existing brand for that? 01:33:14 is that like antimagic*2 01:33:19 I wouldn't know, I suspect not but there are definitely a lot of things that mess with spell failure 01:33:31 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 01:33:57 hmm. spell dehancers don't mess with failure rate do they? 01:33:58 just power 01:33:59 penalizing magic in some way more interesting than just a mild Int hit might be fun, and then there's room to make the hat better otherwise? 01:34:03 right 01:34:17 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:34:51 should give a + to EV 01:35:22 The +6 cap of Wacky Hijinks {+3 EV, -3 Int, antiwiz} 01:35:38 a +6 hat is a little... 01:36:01 +2 Idiot's Cap {MR-, +3 ev, -2 int} 01:36:37 heheh 01:36:48 of course +6 is ridiculous 01:36:49 I can't imagine ever wanting to wear that somehow 01:37:02 would you wear it for +6 01:37:20 but that's not necessarily the point, is it - depends on how many spells the character is casting 01:37:25 and on what other hats exist 01:37:54 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:37:55 *Be would wear a hat like that 01:38:00 hmmm 01:38:16 apparently coxcomb is the "obsolete" term for a jester's cap 01:38:28 yes one consideration is that it's a little odd if -only- berserker-types want to wear it 01:38:34 I mean maybe -Int is fine depending 01:39:06 obviously it's hard to compete with the dirty hat and the fur hat so presumably you're not going for that anyway... 01:39:16 ??dirty hat 01:39:16 hat of the alchemist[1/2]: +2 unrandart cap with rF+ rC+ rElec and 30 MR. 01:39:26 ??fur hat 01:39:26 hat of the bear spirit[1/1]: +2 cap with {Spirit +Rage rN+ MR}. 01:39:31 dang 01:39:41 %dump bh 01:39:41 http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/bh/bh.txt 01:41:00 This is probably the best ring I've seen: {rF++ rC++ rN+ Dam+5 SInv} 01:41:27 that's basically an uber randart, pretty sure 01:41:32 I should take a look at how randart generation works 01:41:59 I'd be interested to know since I tried to look once and couldn't follow it 01:42:00 it's so weird 01:42:22 but just knowing the general range of what shows up is more important from a non-dev perspective, anyway 01:43:28 where are fixedarts defined? 01:43:46 art-data.txt isn't it 01:43:47 I only see references in art-*.h 01:44:02 also that art-func.h or whatever 01:44:08 oh. I was interpreting art as in 'art assets' not 'artefaces' 01:44:10 facts 01:44:31 ??dark chocolate 01:44:31 I don't have a page labeled dark_chocolate in my learndb. 01:44:35 ??milk chocolate 01:44:36 I don't have a page labeled milk_chocolate in my learndb. 01:44:44 the assets are in rltiles/ 01:44:54 do those still exist? 01:45:01 the dark/milk chocolate i mean 01:45:04 they still have enums 01:45:14 they're for testing 01:45:34 ah 01:46:55 how about {-5 int, antiwiz, rtorment}? ;) 01:47:10 you forgot the EV 01:47:19 jesters are good at tumbling 01:47:27 Where will the {*confuse, clarity} go? 01:47:31 rtorment sounds odd 01:47:50 SwissStopwatch: on that? or anything? 01:48:10 {rTorment, regen-} could be interesting 01:48:33 bh: It's an item that makes more undead. 01:48:43 s/more/you more/ 01:49:16 I have no idea if rTorm is even "supposed" to be on items but idk how it goes on a jester hat 01:49:32 heh 01:49:33 could be suitable for body armour? cassock of bones 01:49:53 SwissStopwatch: I was mostly joking. Jester's can deal with a lot of torment ;) 01:50:12 hah 01:50:17 ??armour of the Dragon King 01:50:17 dragon king[1/1]: Unrandart +9 gold dragon armour with 50 MR. 01:50:23 christ! 01:50:42 ehehe 01:50:48 ??large shield of Ignorance 01:50:48 large shield of ignorance[1/1]: It's a +8 dull large shield with: AC+2, EV+2, Int-6, rN+, may recurse itself (one chance in 3). Note that those who will find this most useful are the ones most likely to suffer a stat death. Otherwise, nice stuff. 01:51:46 SamB: should new unrands go before or after chocolate? I imagine real games don't have those 01:53:13 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:53:32 well isn't the Axe of Woe the most recently added one? 01:53:48 point 01:55:11 -!- Sabaki_|2 is now known as Sabaki 01:57:32 -!- moxian has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:03:04 -!- ELRanger has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:03:26 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:04:57 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:06:10 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 02:09:24 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Quit: I've killed the senator.] 02:10:55 -!- klz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:12:52 +2 cap of the fool {+4 EV, -3 Int, Spell-} 02:15:48 -!- bh has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:25:33 -!- RZX has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:06 -!- sacje has quit [Excess Flood] 02:28:53 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:13 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:32:01 -!- hurdos1 has quit [Client Quit] 02:32:17 -!- hurdos1 has quit [Client Quit] 02:32:58 -!- 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quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:41:14 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:48:38 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 05:49:54 -!- Voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:04:03 -!- Sky_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:12:24 -!- alefury|2 has quit [] 06:21:37 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:21:51 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 06:28:51 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:29:41 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:31:30 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:29 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:35:34 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 06:38:54 -!- Voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:40:37 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:33 -!- valtern has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:42 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:58:24 -!- sacje has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:00:32 -!- grathtarg has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:02:45 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:12:24 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:14:00 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:53 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:37:17 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:38:07 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:51 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 07:43:38 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 08:03:30 bh: we removed almost all the "just plain bad" unrands (misfortune gets to be an exception), it doesn't seem like a good idea to add new ones 08:03:56 i guess that isn't strictly bad but also it's very boring 08:06:44 -!- Guest6363 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:07:18 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:14:45 -!- MaxFrosty has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:16:11 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 08:18:21 whatever happened to forest wyrms 08:19:09 They vacated to the swamp. 08:19:17 And now they're the republic of swamp dragons. 08:22:18 -!- Guest6363 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:32:44 huh? i think swamp dragons are much older than forest wyrms 08:33:31 -!- SchwaWarrior has quit [Quit: Goodnight guyyysss] 08:45:14 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 08:46:24 -!- sacje has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:49:26 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:57:11 -!- lainiw has quit [Quit: wooo] 09:03:39 -!- sacje has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:07:57 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:08:09 -!- agolden has joined ##crawl-dev 09:09:40 is there a way to create a player ghost for the latest death in Wizard mode? I'm trying to test a ghost feature. 09:14:53 how ghostly is it? maybe you can use panlords? 09:15:21 that probably wouldnt be very practical, though 09:15:53 agolden: there is a feature that might allow that, but I don't know how to use it personally 09:16:33 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:03 alefury: specifically, I'm working on adding a feature where the player can enter "last words" to be passed on to their ghost, and then the ghost can (will always?) tell those last words to other players that encounter it, maybe only just before being destroyed. It's got to be a player ghost for the feature to make sense. 09:20:12 I think it would enhance the social part of online play, because dying players could sort of leave behind tips for future players. 09:20:15 that seems like a bad idea, even in a community as nice as crawl's 09:20:56 -!- hart_ has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 09:20:58 people are often not in a good mood when they die 09:21:15 (this also applies to real life i guess?) 09:21:24 yeah they'd be all F*** 09:21:24 you think so? I thought crawl players were relatively refined. :) 09:21:39 well, maybe not terribly often but stilll 09:25:21 -!- Ilaeizya has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:26:38 -!- Wolpertinger has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:27:04 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:31:04 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:36:39 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:46:15 -!- orionstein_away is now known as orionstein 09:52:52 -!- agolden has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:56:14 -!- Duralumin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:59:57 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:03:52 -!- fdel is now known as Nexos 10:07:49 -!- ParallaxScroll_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:09:11 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 10:16:59 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 10:19:03 <|amethyst> SamB: re: Roshnak, I'm not sure. It's one thing to add in a missing portal or stairs, but in this case it was perfectly possible to get the rune but the user failed to do so 10:21:59 <|amethyst> SamB: more generally, I'd like to have a hard-and-fast rule for who is and isn't eligible for save "fixing" 10:25:43 agolden: nethack kind of lets you do that with pet names and engravings. it's not at all a problem on nao; in fact people usually ignore it completly 10:26:19 sometimes someone gives their pet a name that looks like a scary game message, that's always funny 10:26:32 <|amethyst> you can already encounter the ghost of HitlersBoner420 (well, that specific user has gotten a few IP bans) 10:26:50 <|amethyst> or wait 10:27:03 <|amethyst> I'm not sure that's the same person as the (AFAIK only) one to have been banned 10:27:17 <|amethyst> !lg ophanimisgay 10:27:18 No games for ophanimisgay. 10:27:41 <|amethyst> !lg * name=~*sgay 10:27:42 No games for * (name=~*sgay). 10:27:46 <|amethyst> !lg * name~~.*isgay 10:27:47 No games for * (name~~.*isgay). 10:27:49 <|amethyst> hm 10:28:06 !lg ophansaregay 10:28:06 <|amethyst> it was something along those lines 10:28:06 No games for ophansaregay. 10:28:12 ;~; 10:31:38 heh 10:31:42 "When I play as a conjurer, I'm not forced to cast one of every spell I have to take down monsters, so why should summoners?" 10:31:50 Floor and wall tiles identical on D:13, reloading resolves (?) by Kriby 10:31:50 because a summoner 10:31:51 yes, a SUMMONER 10:31:59 is not a CONJURER 10:32:05 agolden: compile with DEBUG_BONES and there is a new command (^G?) to save and load bones files 10:32:06 was that so hard 10:32:17 agolden: or compile with full DEBUG 10:32:33 -!- fren has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:37:32 ??battlemage 10:37:33 battlemage[1/8]: BATTLEMAGE 10:38:00 oh wow, thats a lot of entries, ill have to check them out :) 10:38:08 i only remember like 5 10:38:25 HEXECUTIONER 10:38:37 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:38:46 hm, 8 sucks, and i knew the rest :/ 10:39:06 I like #8. 10:40:04 <|amethyst> SamB: Re: Roshnak, do you think my reply is sufficiently diplomatic? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7393 10:40:24 How about DUNGEONBLASTER 10:40:29 because you know dungeon master and stuff 10:40:57 ewww 10:41:20 or more helpfully: that lacks the physical part 10:41:21 <|amethyst> what's a dungeon master? and what does it have to do with hybrids? 10:42:10 ah so that's what this is 10:43:04 Well there's still GRANDBLASTER for monks with storms. 10:44:24 thats actually pretty nice 10:45:06 It's also rather true to reality. 10:45:43 i think grandmaster is just a D&D thing, though? that might actually make it even better in this case, though 10:46:23 <|amethyst> alefury: pretty sure it's a real-world martial arts (incl. chess) thing 10:46:37 mostly chess, i think? 10:46:47 <|amethyst> also, it's an existing title 10:47:13 !lg Bloax won 10:47:14 5. Bloax the Grand Master (L27 GrMo), worshipper of Cheibriados, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2013-07-14 21:49:24, with 17447818 points after 88593 turns and 8:22:45. 10:47:18 It's not one word but eh. 10:47:19 <|amethyst> in-game I mean 10:47:34 mhh, as i said, even if it was just a D&D thing, that would be a good thing in this case 10:48:01 -!- y2s82 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 10:49:12 -!- y2s82 has quit [Client Quit] 10:49:37 -!- y2s82 has quit [Client Quit] 10:49:52 <|amethyst> alefury: aha, probably the term "grandmaster" started being applied to martial artists in the ~1950s by US veterans of the WWII pacific theatre 10:49:57 <|amethyst> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_(martial_arts) 10:51:00 interesting 10:51:15 -!- Burer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:51:58 -!- pythonsnake has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 10:54:42 -!- agentgt has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:55:29 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:55:37 -!- VolteccerJack_ is now known as VolteccerJack 10:56:40 -!- agolden has joined ##crawl-dev 10:58:14 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Quit: oh god how do i internets] 10:59:53 -!- ChrisOelmueller has joined ##crawl-dev 10:59:59 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:07 hi 11:00:23 -!- paulsomebody has quit [Ping timeout: 261 seconds] 11:02:05 -!- Burer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:02:12 Monster speed by chris 11:02:57 happy to discuss this stuff on irc too 11:03:02 which is why i'm here 11:03:02 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:02 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 11:05:02 -!- cjo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:11 whats wrong with just attaching files? 11:07:06 they don't get markup, mostly 11:07:12 anyway, the only one that seems like it may be more complex to me is snapping turtles because they are amphibious 11:07:23 ah, markup is good, of course 11:07:25 snapping turtle (03t) | Spd: 9 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 10 | HP: 42-81 | AC/EV: 16/5 | Dam: 30(reach) | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 282 | Sz: Medium | Int: reptile. 11:07:25 %??snapping turtle 11:07:37 wow that's uh 11:07:42 yes 11:07:47 teffiying 11:07:49 yes, suggestions welcome making them just not weird 11:07:49 the act thing is also weird 11:07:58 alligator snapping turtle (09t) | Spd: 8 (swim: 60%) | HD: 16 | HP: 126-161 | AC/EV: 19/1 | Dam: 50(reach) | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(64), 12drown | XP: 918 | Sz: Large | Int: reptile. 11:07:58 %??alligator snapping turtle 11:08:02 there you go. 11:08:07 yeah that seems better 11:08:18 That's how they were in the first place anyways. 11:08:20 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:08:48 well "maybe" there is something going on with zombification 11:08:57 because those lose their (bonus) things i believe 11:08:57 -!- marquess is now known as psuedo 11:09:01 but that would be really sad 11:09:11 snapping turtle zombie (07z) | Spd: 7 | HD: 10 | HP: 69-100 | AC/EV: 14/0 | Dam: 26(reach) | 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(13), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 144 | Sz: Medium | Int: plant. 11:09:11 %??snapping turtle zombie 11:09:21 sad turtle zombie is sad 11:09:49 Wait a second. 11:09:53 hill giant (04C) | Spd: 10 | HD: 11 | HP: 42-77 | AC/EV: 3/4 | Dam: 30 | 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(44), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 656 | Sz: Giant | Int: normal. 11:09:53 %??Hill giant 11:10:06 Now do you see something wrong here. 11:10:21 compared to 11:10:24 snapping turtle (03t) | Spd: 9 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 10 | HP: 42-81 | AC/EV: 16/5 | Dam: 30(reach) | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 282 | Sz: Medium | Int: reptile. 11:10:24 %??Snapping turtle 11:10:34 one of them gets weapons? 11:10:57 I consider snapping turtles much more terrifying than hill giants. 11:11:03 i did consider taking the turtle stuff out because of just the distraction value :) 11:11:08 just as i did with jellies 11:11:12 Even though the latter is more likely to splat you the first time you see them. 11:11:35 What I see wrong however is: 11:11:59 hill giant: XP: 656 | snapping turtle: XP: 282 11:12:05 anyway, they are still faster than you when swimming even at speed 8, so whatever 11:12:06 that's really miniscule experience 11:12:20 for something you fight after hill giants 11:12:59 well, they are only Int: reptile ;) 11:13:34 well, also the weapons thing 11:13:36 fighting a hill giant is very enlightening 11:13:37 They have 13 more AC and more hp combined with a reaching attack. 11:13:46 Also they appear later. 11:13:50 ??giant club 11:13:51 giant club[1/1]: A giant lump of wood. (two-handed mace; Dmg 20 Acc -6 Delay 17) 11:13:54 ^ 11:14:09 im not 100% sure how monster weapons work, but damage increases damage i think 11:14:21 yes 11:14:34 monster xp in general is a stupid mess 11:14:58 I've never found clearing the lair branches worthwhile. 11:15:08 which is mostly only a problem because the threat rating uses xp 11:15:10 It takes quite some time and the experience gained from it is really tiny. 11:15:32 usually more than half the exp is on the last floor iirc 11:15:41 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:15:41 there were numbers some time ago 11:16:01 Well things have been jumbled around quite a bit lately. 11:16:25 -!- Carrotz is now known as Momento 11:17:04 oh 11:17:06 yak (07Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 27-54 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Dam: 18 | Res: 06magic(28) | XP: 205 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 11:17:06 %??Yak 11:19:26 merfolk (04m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 9 | HP: 23-51 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 18 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, amphibious | Res: 06magic(36), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 189 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 11:19:26 %??Merfolk 11:19:51 ice beast (16I) | Spd: 10 (swim: 110%) | HD: 5 | HP: 17-38 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Dam: 512(cold:5-14) | amphibious | Res: 06magic(20), 12cold+++, 03poison, 12drown | Vul: 04fire | XP: 130 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 11:19:51 %??ice beast 11:19:53 don't ask me 11:20:00 Shoals stuff doesn't really give that much more experience than lair stuff. 11:20:06 Exactly why is a good question? o_O 11:20:19 Because shoals is... Quite a bit more dangerous than lair. 11:23:17 well 11:23:19 ??branch order 11:23:20 hyperelliptic[1/1]: Lair -> D:13 -> Orc -> D:19 -> Vaults/Crypt (but not Vaults:5) -> D:27 -> get three runes -> Zot 11:24:25 given that one of the reasons i feel like i've seen for new xp was to get people to not rigidly follow that order 11:24:45 having the lair branches have some xp doesn't seem so bad to me 11:25:17 i dont think crawl would be improved by more branch hopping 11:26:20 its unintuitive and slightly annoying 11:26:55 well, how about not placing orc earlier than lair...... 11:27:19 you could also fix it by making the lair branches give a little more xp and having the endings not be way harder than the rest of it 11:27:43 ChrisOelmueller: oh, btw, while we are already off topic, whats wrong with what i wrote about item destruction? should it not die horribly, preferably in a fire? 11:27:57 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:27:57 oh wow is it that time of the day already 11:28:03 i just had the discussion yesterday 11:28:17 I don't do the branch hopping because it's so fun to fight yaktaurs and all the fluff. 11:28:31 I do it because I'll be underpowered in the lair branches and the experience there won't help me overcome that. 11:28:45 can i quote dracoomega here: sure it could just go, but i'd rather improve instead of remove 11:28:56 this is incredibly flawed but true here 11:29:12 The smallest improvement would be making it based on damage. 11:29:17 Just that. 11:29:23 alefury: i have some changes on my todo list, at least 11:29:30 but its bad for so many reasons, and everything people say is good about it is not really very good 11:29:33 jiyva knows when i'll get around to test them 11:29:50 A flame puff that did 2 damage shouldn't do the same carnage as a blast of 40 damage. 11:29:58 yes, that's what i want to fix 11:30:30 but even toning down destruction rate means reducing overall item spawn rates 11:30:35 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:30:36 not looking forward to this, honestly 11:30:48 i bet item destruction would be pretty close to good under those circumstances, yeah 11:30:48 sticky and clouds possibly still problematic 11:31:05 (how about eventually making randarts good while we're at that point) 11:31:17 which point even is that 11:31:38 but even toning down destruction rate means >reducing overall item spawn rates< 11:31:39 -!- VolteccerJack_ is now known as VolteccerJack 11:32:23 Because let's just be honest "the -7 cloak of the Chupacabra {rPois rF+}" are very annoying. 11:33:26 Or trying to add contrast to it. 11:33:41 So that yes, it might be bad but it comes with very good things on it. 11:33:49 Instead of just being bad. 11:33:59 rPois and rF+ aren't worth the huge AC hit there. 11:34:06 It's just trash. 11:34:11 Like a lot of randarts apparently. 11:34:28 almost everything is trash, you just take the time to pick up randarts 11:34:42 even knowing they're going to be trash the majority of the time i always like seeing them just for the slim chance they'll be good 11:35:00 if you stopped spawning bad randarts it would just mean having way fewer randarts 11:35:22 thus making you like seeing them because they're scarce or something 11:35:44 We have enough dungeon trash in the form of curse branded items already. 11:35:51 i would like seeing them about as much but would do it less often 11:35:51 ymmv of course 11:36:12 i could maybe see not getting crap randart gifts from gods, replacing them with regular ego weapons 11:36:12 maybe toning the gift rate down a bit 11:42:49 -!- agolden has quit [Quit: agolden] 11:43:19 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 11:44:01 -!- cjo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:51:49 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:51:58 -!- VolteccerJack_ is now known as VolteccerJack 11:52:32 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:58:32 -!- cjo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:12 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host 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joined ##crawl-dev 13:32:51 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:39:05 -!- syllogism has quit [] 13:39:21 -!- BlasterBlade has joined ##crawl-dev 13:39:26 Hi 13:39:27 -!- Wark- has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:40 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 13:40:52 I am trying to get crawl in Fedora offical repos but I have some problems with license rpm tag. If you want to help pls look here https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=979738 13:44:33 -!- ackack has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:48:33 -!- blackcustard has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:52:10 -!- QQQ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:03:01 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 14:04:22 BlasterBlade: looks like most of the noise comes from contribs 14:05:00 BlasterBlade: in general, you want a tarball with no contribs, as proper distributions already have all the needed libraries 14:05:35 and security teams (at least Debian's) are really hostile to such convenience copies 14:07:07 -!- emagenta has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:08:22 that licensecheck thingy has a false positive for GPL3+ for lex/yacc stuff, too 14:11:56 Bison's boilerplate is basically "GPLv3+ but, as a special exception, it's all-permissive that you just may to turn into GPLv3+ if you really wanted to", 14:13:10 kilobyte: what does `No such monster is effectively at its apparent speed.` mean 14:13:52 ChrisOelmueller: any turn used casting a spell or using a special ability is a turn not spent walking towards you 14:14:14 -!- SenoraRaton has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:14:31 smoke demons are pretty famous for sabotaging themselves 14:16:03 so yes, i intentionally changed this because i think (act: ) speeds are almost as bad as 9/11 14:16:22 -!- BlasterBlade has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:16:47 I'd say it's speed 10 that are universally bad 14:17:05 would love to hear your arguments there 14:17:23 because they lead to ridiculous effects as running around a pillar forever, or for spoily games like opening a gap then running to stairs 14:17:48 wait are you confusing speed 10 for speed <10 14:17:54 except for spellcasters, that is 14:18:02 no, speed == 10 14:18:31 i honestly can't see where kiting a speed 10 monster works but kiting a 9 or speed 8 monster would be preferred 14:19:20 kiting speed 10 works fine, between energy randomization and just waiting for hp youll win eventually 14:19:33 speed < 10 on melee-only monsters can cause kiting on D:1 for most races; speed > 10 < 25 on melee-onlys cause kiting in at least some cases 14:19:42 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 14:20:00 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:20:13 does that mean you would actually push my patch that makes jellies speed 10 14:20:26 (am serious) 14:20:38 speed 10 jellies would be horrific, if anything make them slower. the annoying thing about them is them being speed 9 14:20:44 give jellies cantrip 14:21:03 well i just did that for lots of monsters (get rid of speed 9) 14:21:10 but then kilobyte said 10 is worse than 9 14:21:13 and now i'm confused 14:22:02 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:22:03 "worse"? I did not say that. 14:22:27 9 is a notch worse than 10, but 10 is still bad. But so is 12, or any other number lesser than 25. 14:22:52 i hope you're not seriously suggesting to make all monsters speed 25 or faster? 14:23:00 no :p 14:23:05 why 25? 14:23:08 it would take a gigantic rebalancing to make crawl playable with all monsters being faster than the player 14:23:47 ontoclasm: 1/0.6 (spriggan/boosted) * 1.5 (haste) 14:24:00 well i kind of wanted to tone down jelly attack a bit as tradeoff for speed 10 14:24:50 speed 10 jellies will lead to ridiculous things like people carrying around jelly gear to change into 14:25:09 quite a few characters can't fight jellies good enough, especially on D:1 (or D:2 when a bad entry vault forces someone down) 14:25:10 armour swapping in front of a jelly 14:25:12 sounds fine 14:25:18 youd use the stairs of course 14:25:26 what even is placing a jelly on d:1 and why... 14:26:09 i'm pretty good at exaggerations myself, but in this case it just means that those folks need to learn nondegenerate tactics 14:26:26 like, not carrying 100 stones and kiting the thing literally forever 14:26:48 what do you do instead if you dont have a way to kill them 14:26:57 wrecking your gear is not a valid choice 14:27:05 what do you do with other speed 10 monsters that you cannot kill 14:27:21 ChrisOelmueller: I agree with you that the current state is bad 14:27:36 well other monsters arent gonna go around and eat everything and multiply 14:27:42 okay, so maybe we can single out some of the "more" controversial changes? 14:28:10 what I do disagree with you about is: 1. that changing those with spells/abilities is a good idea, and 2. than speed 10 is good 14:28:26 so (smoke demons and balrugs) for the spell stuff 14:28:48 I don't see a non-spriggan non-hasted case when speed 12 would be ever preferred over 11, too 14:29:04 -!- Duralumin has quit [Quit: �� (xchat 2.4.5 �� )] 14:29:07 well obviously a player doesn't prefer the faster monster 14:30:28 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:30:31 in general i'd like monster speed to not have almost every single variation from 3 to 30, if only to make it easier for players to remember and approximate 14:30:46 ? 14:31:00 that's not the goal of these patches though. 14:31:09 looks like you'd want that "my move, your move" scheme? 14:31:50 -!- Zermako has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:32:56 not particularly, but for the monsters with speed 9 that i changed i would prefer 10 indeed 14:33:11 for the ones with 11 this mostly applied too. and where it didn't i made them 12 instead 14:33:28 ugly things still are at 11 because of their (act) magic 14:33:30 could you tell me what's your reason for changing 11? 14:33:43 -!- valtern has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:43 my personal experience from playing mostly 14:34:53 at least that's the reason for why i think 11 doesn't mean anything 14:35:12 but... what is its problem? Monsters kiting the player? 14:35:32 11 doesn't bother me as much as 9 does 14:36:21 11 is a nice speed: not bigger than 10 to be really noticeable, yet kills pillar dancing dead 14:36:55 there's no speed 11 monster where pillar dancing matters 14:37:01 except very very slightly ugly things 14:37:10 also, i agree that on spellcasters speed is less of a Thing 14:37:15 since they waste lots of turns 14:37:41 so, for monsters you listed, I'd change only: guardian mummy, spiny worm, snapping turtle 14:37:44 and usually you don't kite them since that's more dangerous than not doing so 14:37:53 not sure if going down for guardian mummies is good 14:38:23 too bad mummy speeds are inconsistent :( 14:38:39 they're 6-8-10 after the change 14:39:34 plain: 6, guardian: 9, priest:8, greater:10, player:10 14:41:02 fr make player mummies speed 9 14:41:06 er 14:41:22 whatever (player/monster speeds are dumb) 14:41:40 well if what kilobyte said above is true, i.e. pillar dancing is a bad problem, everything-player should be delay 9 14:42:33 uh, speed 9, sorry 14:42:44