00:00:06 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 00:00:19 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 00:01:01 -!- Sofren has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:02:43 I wouldn't really say it's to the point of making even the best cringe, but Mennas with a large shield is bad news. 00:03:22 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 00:03:56 does mennas ever not have a large shield? 00:04:05 -!- rphillips has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:04:53 When he picks up a bow for it he doesn't but otherwise - I don't think so. :q 00:05:15 Grunt: Re: your commit -- you're evil 00:05:30 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:05:41 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2319-g50c6e87 (34) 00:05:48 Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.13-a0-2319-g50c6e87 (34) 00:05:53 -!- eeviac has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212]] 00:06:18 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:20 I probably missed this and it's been in forever, but is spellcasters having innate dmsl (the deflecting message when you examine them) something that's been around forever? 00:06:40 er, sorry for the double word usage 00:07:28 FR: webtiles footv 00:08:08 Would be great. 00:08:54 gammafunk: not forever, but kirke was added with it 00:09:07 no other monsters had it for a while I think 00:09:18 elliptic: yeah, her and tengue reavers are where I started noticing it recently 00:10:16 ??deflecting 00:10:16 I don't have a page labeled deflecting in my learndb. 00:10:33 ??deflect 00:10:33 I don't have a page labeled deflect in my learndb. 00:10:34 -!- paulsomebody has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:10:52 ??deflect missiles 00:10:52 deflect missiles[1/2]: A level 6 Charms/Air spell that helps you dodge enemy ranged attacks (by reducing their to-hit roll (for evasion purposes only) *to* a random amount between: 0% and 66% for penetrating beams, 0% and 50% for single-target missiles). In the books of Enchantments and Sky. 00:11:10 ??deflect_missiles[2] 00:11:10 deflect missiles[2/2]: < [Hanged_Man]> The storm dragon breathes lightning at you! You deflect the bolt of lightning! You deflect the bolt of lightning! You deflect the bolt of lightning! You deflect the bolt of lightning! 00:11:47 I'd add an entry for the monster 'deflecting' enchant, but I'm not sure how it differs from the player spell 00:12:29 bh: oh? 00:12:46 bees! everywhere 00:13:02 gammafunk: It doesn't, other than that it's permanent. 00:13:30 !learn add grunt you're evil 00:13:30 grunt[8/8]: you're evil 00:13:32 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2319-g50c6e87 (34) 00:13:49 -!- dcss50627 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:13:50 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Quit: I've killed the senator.] 00:14:12 !learn mv grunt[8] grunt[1] 00:14:13 grunt[8] -> grunt[1/8]: you're evil 00:14:48 the amount of pride you take in it is really a little jarring 00:14:55 dont worry i fixed it 00:15:11 ah, yes. 00:15:59 to references to other entries in learndb, do you use {entry}? 00:16:43 yes 00:17:43 !learn add deflecting A monster with this enchant has permanent {deflect_missiles} 00:17:44 deflecting[1/1]: A monster with this enchant has permanent {deflect_missiles} 00:18:13 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:59 hm, that's deflect and not repel? 00:19:04 interesting. 00:19:46 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 00:21:17 ??bh 00:21:18 bh[1/2]: When it comes to stupid ideas, I'm your man. 00:21:21 ??bh[2] 00:21:21 bh[2/2]: Grunt also has bad ideas. 00:21:29 Grunt: +1 :) 00:22:33 Example of badGrunt? 00:22:49 do you really want to know 00:23:01 yeah, probably not 00:23:16 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:29:33 how do you request deaths by a partial vault name? 00:30:03 e.g. 00:30:04 !lg * map=~entry 00:30:05 228216. foonesh the Ruinous (L1 DECj), slain by a giant gecko on D:1 (minmay_entry_open_corners) on 2013-07-10 04:54:36, with 24 points after 45 turns and 0:00:28. 00:30:11 !lg * map=~entry s=map 00:30:12 228216 games for * (map=~entry): 4333x erik_entry_cave_to_civilisation, 2750x dpeg_entry_caged_fury, 2343x dpeg_entry_pits, 2236x erik_entry_gehennom, 2098x erik_entry_orb_chamber, 2008x evilmike_entry_run_for_it, 1956x dpeg_entry_morbid_curiosity, 1923x dpeg_entry_thieves, 1886x onia_entry_handbag, 1739x dpeg_entry_central, 1695x dpeg_entry_brainrot, 1687x dpeg_entry_chase, 1679x dpeg_entry_boxor... 00:30:19 !lg * map=bh~ 00:30:19 No games for * (map=bh~). 00:30:34 !lg * map=bh.~ 00:30:34 No games for * (map=bh.~). 00:30:39 !lg * map=~^bh s=map 00:30:39 No games for * (map=~^bh). 00:30:46 !lg * map=~bh s=map 00:30:46 13 games for * (map=~bh): 5x bh_open_orc_temple, 3x bh_walls_and_bars, 3x bh_abyss_fiendish_exit, bh_abyss_xom_lugonu_altar, bh_abyss_exit_spiral 00:31:00 !lg * map~~^bh s=map 00:31:01 13 games for * (map~~^bh): 5x bh_open_orc_temple, 3x bh_walls_and_bars, 3x bh_abyss_fiendish_exit, bh_abyss_xom_lugonu_altar, bh_abyss_exit_spiral 00:31:04 there that works 00:31:16 I!lg * map~~^grunt s=map 00:31:21 !lg * map~~^grunt s=map 00:31:21 1509 games for * (map~~^grunt): 178x grunt_entry_crossed_arrows, 101x grunt_entry_lava_bath, 65x grunt_entry_hellfire, 64x grunt_nemelex_the_gamble, 56x grunt_ministairs_6, 47x grunt_snake_rune_spirals, 47x grunt_ashenzari_visionary, 46x grunt_decor_mini_mirrors, 44x grunt_spider_rune_circles, 41x grunt_profane_halls, 40x grunt_decor_arrowhead, 38x grunt_spider_rune_island, 34x grunt_orc_community... 00:31:50 ??paste 00:31:51 I don't have a page labeled paste in my learndb. 00:32:06 !paste grunt_entry_crossed_arrows 00:32:14 (what's the command for that?) 00:32:18 !vault grunt_entry_crossed_arrows 00:32:29 Lines pasted to http://pastie.org/8126980 00:33:52 what's so lethal about that? 00:34:05 !paste bh_walls_and_bars 00:34:20 !lg * map=~crossed_arrows s=ktyp 00:34:20 178 games for * (map=~crossed_arrows): 69x quitting, 52x mon, 45x leaving, 10x winning, something, acid 00:34:33 oh! those aren't deaths 00:36:24 and the 54 actual deaths are from it being d:1 00:36:55 !lg * map=~crossed_arrows ktyp=acid 00:36:55 1. mnolly the Ducker (L1 SpJr), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, splashed by acid on D:1 (grunt_entry_crossed_arrows) on 2013-04-02 13:16:21, with 20 points after 4 turns and 0:00:13. 00:37:04 ... 00:37:28 that's a no fun OOD 00:38:47 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 00:42:41 !vault crossed_arrows 00:42:43 -!- Tarquinn has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:42:43 Lines pasted to http://pastie.org/8127004 00:44:31 pretty sure that's a deck not ood 00:45:55 -!- Stendarr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:48:10 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2319-g50c6e87 00:49:12 -!- dupo has quit [] 00:50:16 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:51:17 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 01:01:36 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:03:57 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 01:06:16 -!- six40sword has quit [Quit: six40sword] 01:06:52 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:07:20 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 01:14:07 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:16:57 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:28 -!- Melum has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:20:01 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:16 -!- RichardSimmons has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:20:29 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 01:23:27 -!- _D_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:34:33 -!- six40sword has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:36:02 -!- six40sword has quit [Client Quit] 01:37:43 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 01:40:10 -!- leStahL has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:43:04 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 01:53:55 -!- StahLSigma has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:54:45 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57:51 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:57:57 !tell ontoclasm Hey, you there. Yeah you. The "Scimitar of FLAMING DEATH" apparently has a rather boring tile, so I decided to spice it up a bit. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/FLAMINGDEATH.png 01:57:58 Bloax: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 01:58:14 !tell ontoclasm also have a comparision between the two: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/FlamingOld.png 01:58:15 Bloax: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 01:58:20 !tell https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/FlamingNewAndShinier.png 01:58:21 I don't grok. Syntax is !tell PERSON MESSAGE. 01:58:28 !tell ontoclasm https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/FlamingNewAndShinier.png 01:58:28 Bloax: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 01:58:30 wherps 02:03:43 Bloax: huge improvement 02:03:56 Now if only we could have a buff that came with it. 02:04:06 So that it really could be the scimitar of FLAMING DEATH. 02:04:51 Hell of a scimitar, that. 02:04:52 It's a good scimitar no doubt. 02:04:58 But it's not really.. 02:04:59 Make it sticky flame on hit? 02:05:00 FLAMING DEATH 02:05:37 -!- paulsomebody has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:05:51 Thyme: that would be *really really* good 02:06:11 you mean FLAMING DEATH good? 02:06:14 Sticky Flame 5% of the time would probably also be great 02:06:51 Well if you want an amazing scimitar then doing the same thing as Sword of Cerebov in addition to that would make it one. 02:07:06 ??sniper 02:07:07 sniper[1/2]: the +10,+0 crossbow "Sniper" {venom, SInv} 02:07:15 ??sniper[2 02:07:15 sniper[2/2]: basically it is a bit better than a blowgun that can't use curare 02:08:03 bh: It would certainly make it interesting probably. 02:08:35 ??sword of cerebov 02:08:36 sword of cerebov[1/2]: cursed +6,+6 flaming great sword. Fire resistance is reduced by 1 point for damage calculation with this blade. 02:08:43 ??sword of cerebov[2] 02:08:44 sword of cerebov[2/2]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouf2-1-yWF4 02:08:48 Then again, it might encourage swappy things unless sticky is extinguished on unwield 02:09:24 If it's only 5% you're not going to swappy swap it. 02:09:29 It'd be easier to just cast sticky flame then. 02:10:17 ??flaming 02:10:18 flaming[1/1]: Increases damage by (on average) 25% against non-fire-resistant monsters, 50% on rF-, still 12.5% on rF+, 0 on rF+++. Slicing/chopping flaming weapons will cauterize hydra necks, preventing the heads from regrowing. 02:10:23 ??freezing 02:10:24 freezing[1/1]: Increases damage by (on average) 25% against non-cold-resistant monsters, or 50% on vulnerable monsters. Also slows {cold-blooded} monsters. Still increases damage by 12.5% against monsters with rC+, the same as vorpal does. 02:10:27 ??electric 02:10:27 electrocution[1/1]: Weapon brand that causes your weapon to blast your target with an explosion of sparks on 1 out of every 3 hits, doing 9+d15 additional damage (which ignores AC). Does not work on targets with rElec. Does not work on levitating or flying targets in versions older than 0.13. 02:10:35 -!- tali713 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:10:47 wow. Electrocution is so good. 02:11:15 -!- bonghitz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:11:37 Dual quickblades of electrocution. :v 02:15:13 -!- bh has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:16:35 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:20:10 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: BRB, DEAD] 02:21:46 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:22:28 -!- Sabaki has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 02:22:38 -!- Danei has quit [Quit: Those who tell the truth shall die, those who tell the truth shall live forever.] 02:24:27 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 02:24:53 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 02:26:37 -!- Ystah has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:27:01 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:29:31 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:31:35 -!- kunwon1 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:33:01 -!- tali713 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:34:38 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:34:46 -!- SteampunkDuck has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:35:25 -!- Aidenn has quit [Changing host] 02:35:31 -!- obscurity has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:40:17 -!- Quashie_ is now known as Quashie 02:40:37 is it a bad thing if i made monsters not limited to 6 spell slots 02:40:59 it'd probably be a bad thing wouldn't it :P 02:42:15 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:48 By the way, what's the description of deathcaps? 02:51:16 Since I'm busy not being busy I might as well just make a tile for it. 02:51:42 ugh. i nearly got killed by some earlier today and i didn't even look at the in-game description 02:52:13 -!- reu has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:52:25 a darker palette swap on wandering shrooms would probably hit pretty close to the mark though 03:02:05 wandering mushroom (07f) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 30-58 | AC/EV: 5/0 | Dam: 2013(confuse) | 03plant | Res: 06magic(32), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 313 | Sz: tiny | Int: plant. 03:02:05 %??Wandering mushroom 03:02:15 Apparently they're all tiny. 03:03:40 huh. i always imagined them as being human sized 03:03:46 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:11 real life deathcaps are pretty boring looking 03:05:50 they pretty much look like the generic ones you buy from the supermarket 03:10:10 http://zuzutop.com/tag/poisonous-mushrooms/ 03:10:17 maybe something along the 2nd or 3rd one? 03:27:17 -!- Melum_ has quit [Quit: Was eaten by a grue.] 03:31:33 -!- flowsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:34:19 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:34:42 -!- flowsnake has joined ##crawl-dev 03:37:41 aww 03:37:47 That third one is so cute. 03:37:49 -!- jaccarmac has quit [Client Quit] 03:42:38 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 03:47:49 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:50:49 -!- Aidenn_ has quit [Changing host] 03:54:42 -!- Aidenn has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:54:42 -!- mason- has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:56:42 heh. i liked it 03:59:33 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/Deathcap.png 03:59:55 Probably a bit silly. 04:01:11 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Quit: Note to self: Lugonu is a crawl god; Lugano is a city in Switzerland and Luongo is a hockey player <|amethyst> and Lugaru is a game about martial arts rabbits] 04:05:57 heh 04:06:18 the skull might be a bit much 04:06:43 silly, but quite funny 04:18:42 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:22:49 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 04:31:17 heh 04:31:18 i like it 04:31:48 i mean, let's face it, the curse toe and regular wandering shrooms already look silly 04:32:04 why not continue the theme? 04:32:11 also who's behind this sexy stylized font 04:32:17 where O and Q look very much alike. 04:33:20 which? 04:34:20 -!- StahLSigma has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:35:57 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 04:38:25 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 04:38:48 The tiles font. 04:40:12 -!- dcss39690 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:41:24 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 04:42:38 oh 04:42:39 heh 04:42:48 no idea 04:43:43 ? 04:43:44 ontoclasm: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 04:43:47 uh oh 04:44:43 Bloax: looks good 04:44:51 gud 04:45:12 damnit this means i have to compile crawl again >.> 04:45:20 mua 04:45:21 ha ha 04:46:23 -!- reu has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:48:53 Nexos the Grasshopper (L8 FeWr) ERROR: range check error (35 / 35) (D:5) 04:51:55 wow, make is working even more slowly than usual 04:52:11 -!- broquain1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:52:51 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!] 04:53:00 -!- greensna1k has joined ##crawl-dev 04:53:06 -!- rax_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:55:51 -!- johnsteinVPS has joined ##crawl-dev 04:55:53 Spelunky as a roguelike. 04:57:53 -!- elliott has quit [*.net *.split] 04:57:53 -!- StrixVaria has quit [*.net *.split] 04:57:53 -!- Celsitudo has quit [*.net *.split] 04:57:53 -!- iasov has quit [*.net *.split] 04:57:53 -!- greensnark has quit [*.net *.split] 04:57:53 -!- tswett has quit [*.net *.split] 04:57:53 -!- broquaint has quit [*.net 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05:15:18 -!- lainiwa is now known as notlainiw 05:15:42 -!- dcss97563 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:22:46 -!- moxian has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:24:03 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 05:25:35 -!- joosa has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:25:45 -!- Blazinghand_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:27:45 -!- Ruffell has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:29:30 -!- moxian has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:31:54 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:33 -!- Ruffell has joined ##crawl-dev 05:51:23 -!- StahLSigma has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:56:43 stonewall (L27 MuAs) ERROR: range check error (-3 / 17) (Hell) 06:01:44 -!- elliott has joined ##crawl-dev 06:02:23 -!- elliott is now known as Guest17879 06:04:32 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:06:27 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:08:15 -!- santiago has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:08:59 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:09:00 -!- MarvinPA_ is now 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Comradin 07:50:08 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:50:55 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 07:50:55 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:51:21 -!- StahLDelta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:51:27 -!- yoru has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:52:36 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 08:00:06 -!- Aponym has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 08:00:29 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:07:40 -!- wvc has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:09:57 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:13:13 -!- Duralumin has quit [Quit: Óõîæó ÿ îò âàñ (xchat 2.4.5 èëè ñòàðøå)] 08:20:38 -!- SamB_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:21:36 Outdated hints mode by Marbit 08:22:50 -!- Grimalki1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:24:19 -!- Chousuke_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:37 -!- LoremIpsum has quit [*.net *.split] 08:29:37 -!- Kalma has quit [*.net 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ZZZzzz…] 08:38:48 -!- Kintak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:40:06 -!- Kintak has joined ##crawl-dev 08:42:32 -!- SamB_ has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 08:44:41 03Medar 07* 0.13-a0-2321-g99da39b: Fix hints mode text about item heaps 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=99da39b06552 08:45:10 -!- whanners has quit [Client Quit] 08:46:16 -!- whanners has quit [Client Quit] 08:49:04 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 08:49:28 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:35 -!- tali713_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:52:12 -!- whanners has quit [Client Quit] 08:52:18 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:57:21 -!- morik_ has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:21 -!- bmfx has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:21 -!- vosai has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:21 -!- rax_ has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:21 -!- imantor_ has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:21 -!- StrixVaria|2 has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:21 -!- Rjs has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:21 -!- Hailley has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:21 -!- popx has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:21 -!- tali713 has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:21 -!- edlothiol has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:21 -!- rphillips has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:21 -!- tensorpudding has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:22 -!- johlstei_ has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:22 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:22 -!- Stelpa has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:22 -!- ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:22 -!- tali713_ is now known as tali713 08:57:25 -!- tensorpuddin is now known as tensorpudding 08:57:55 -!- whanners is now known as Kronusdark 08:58:14 -!- Kronusdark is now known as kronusdark 08:58:51 -!- kronusdark has quit [Client Quit] 08:59:10 -!- kronusdark is now known as Kronusdark 09:01:43 -!- Kronusdark has quit [Client Quit] 09:02:28 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 09:03:34 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:03:51 -!- orionstein_away is now known as orionstein 09:03:59 -!- kunwon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:04:13 -!- kronusdark has quit [Client Quit] 09:05:11 -!- Kronusdark has joined ##crawl-dev 09:07:26 -!- kilobyte_ is now known as kilobyte 09:07:40 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:09:36 -!- Kronusdark is now known as kronusdark 09:09:59 -!- floatboth has quit [Quit: floatboth] 09:10:14 -!- Kintak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:10:32 is not working? 09:10:35 nickserv 09:10:53 -!- Medra has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:01 -!- ZanniqlcKzxkq has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:18 -!- phyphor_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:13:42 -!- kronusdark has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 09:14:03 -!- arttle has quit [Client Quit] 09:14:52 -!- kunwon1 has quit [Changing host] 09:14:52 -!- kunwon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:15:10 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 09:15:43 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16:00 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:17:37 -!- iasov has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:37 -!- tensorpudding has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:37 -!- bmfx_ has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:37 -!- Pepe has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:37 -!- us17 has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:37 -!- Wah has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:37 -!- mumblerit has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:37 -!- dosman711 has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:37 -!- phyphor has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:38 -!- myp has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:38 -!- bd- has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:38 -!- Guest1737 has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:38 -!- Medar has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:38 -!- Zannick has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:38 -!- y2s82_ has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:38 -!- Kaput_ has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:38 -!- yxhuvud has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:38 -!- Azzkikr has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:38 -!- ekix has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:38 -!- Gretell has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:38 -!- doome has quit [*.net *.split] 09:17:40 -!- us17_ is now known as us17 09:17:42 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 09:17:45 -!- wHATEver is now known as myp 09:19:09 -!- nooodl_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:15 -!- nooodl has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:22:11 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23:11 Morning 09:25:35 -!- ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 09:28:02 -!- rphillips_ is now known as rphillips 09:30:47 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:31:08 -!- ag- is now known as bd- 09:33:02 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:36:47 -!- Cedric_ has quit [Client Quit] 09:38:45 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 09:44:52 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:51:53 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:58:18 -!- radinms_ has quit [] 09:59:08 -!- ncampion has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:25 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:00:50 -!- dcss91484 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:05 -!- wvc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:14 -!- us17 has quit [Changing host] 10:04:31 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 10:04:41 -!- sacje is now known as Guest90495 10:04:42 -!- Ganrao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:04:46 -!- mumblerit is now known as Guest80508 10:06:16 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: No buffer space available] 10:06:20 -!- wvc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:06:38 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:39 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 266 seconds] 10:07:05 -!- trojan21665 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:53 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 10:07:54 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:10:18 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:10:53 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212]] 10:12:19 -!- Kintak has joined ##crawl-dev 10:14:56 -!- Guest80508 is now known as mumblerit 10:16:13 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:19:43 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:27 -!- ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 10:34:20 -!- StahLDelta has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:36:16 -!- QQQ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:37:00 -!- scorchgeek has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:13 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:40:29 -!- buppy has joined ##crawl-dev 10:45:15 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 10:50:05 -!- ackack has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:55:54 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55:54 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:57:00 is anyone working on permabuffs? 10:58:59 or has worked on them 10:59:52 -!- StahLDelta has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:01:14 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:19 -!- ZanniqlcKzxkq is now known as Zannick 11:02:02 -!- Zannick has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 11:02:16 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:53 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:54 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:05:11 -!- Porost_ is now known as Porost 11:05:51 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:52 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:06:12 buppy: nobody is working on them, everyone who has thought about ways to implement them has come to the conclusion that it would be better to make permabuffs unnecessary somehow 11:06:25 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:07:22 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:05 -!- Quashie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:08:06 -!- QQQ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:09:28 Well, actually I've worked on them (roughly a year ago). It was fine, but I couldn't think of a way to implement them without breaking save compatibility (which i think is actually possible), and hence dropped it altogether. 11:10:18 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:31 -!- Quashie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:11:00 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:11:26 alefury: what do you mean unnecessary? 11:12:17 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:12:41 -!- ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 11:14:26 So, I have been doing some work on gargoyle modifications and consistency improvements, and I find myself wondering if it would make sense to restrict form-changes for them altogether (like with undead, at present). Nonliving monsters can't actually change form at all, either. 11:14:41 Statue form at least seems kind of odd, since you kind of already ARE a statue 11:15:18 But it also seems odd to be able to turn into something that is more alive than you are 11:16:40 (Somehow this seems to make less sense to me than turning into something LESS alive than you, but I suppose that's arguable) 11:19:08 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 11:19:16 Any thoughts? :P 11:19:19 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:01 hey DracoOmega, want to hear an eeeeeeevil idea? What if vault warden 11:20:07 s closed doors and stairs with that spell 11:20:17 Haha, stairs too? 11:20:33 that would make them scary on v:$ 11:20:47 Hmmm... that is a point, since their ability is mostly useless there 11:20:56 plus I've heard people say that the door thing can be underwhelming sometimes, so there's that 11:20:57 Though they are still fairly beefy melee threats in their own right, at least 11:21:02 yeah 11:21:08 Well, I think the main thing that makes it underwhelming is that you can still teleport 11:21:18 So generally if you really need to get out, you still can 11:21:32 I did make it so that you couldn't dig through sealed doors in 0.13, though, since I felt that made it TOO ignorable 11:21:41 i guess that's another reason for stasis aura spell / teleport magnet / whatever 11:21:45 Since most people will have a ready source of digging/disint by that time 11:22:03 oh, you can't disintigrate them either? 11:22:06 -!- Quashie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:22:06 Not anymore 11:22:13 LRD and shatter still work, though 11:22:23 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:23:57 sealing stairs sounds neat, not sure how you'd indicate it though 11:24:06 Well, presumably the same color change as the doors get 11:24:18 (Do lightgreen stairs mean anything currently? >.>) 11:24:27 just change the stair colour yeah. I don't think lightgreen is ever used 11:24:35 oh it's regular green that's used, yeah 11:24:38 and I dont think it matters much if you use it for both stairs and hatches 11:24:53 Well, if both are equally unusable, it seems fine to color them the same 11:24:59 I mean, it already does this with runed/non-runed doors 11:25:18 And they properly revert to whatever they were before, afterward 11:25:55 what's the range of that door spell anyway? 11:26:17 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 11:26:29 Is it just the vault warden's LOS? it feels bigger 11:27:03 It's based on the player's LoS, actually 11:27:22 So that it can seal doors you might be retreating towards, that the warden can't see 11:27:30 (We assume he has access codes to the whole vault :P) 11:27:57 And doesn't waste time sealing things that might be close to him, but very far from you 11:28:43 Perhaps I shouldn't say LoS, but the radius is centered there 11:28:53 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:31:01 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:28 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:46 Incidentally, do either of the two of you have any opinions on restricting form-changing spells for gargoyles? 11:32:35 well if the plan is for them to be "statue form holiness" whatever that is, then transforming is maybe fine? 11:32:41 statue form gargoyle seems redundnat 11:32:47 Well, statue form at least seems really weird 11:32:55 Since you're already a statue, yet that one melds the armour you can otherwise wear? 11:33:08 !apt gr 11:33:09 Gr: Fighting: 1, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -1, Maces: 1, Polearms: -1, Staves: 1, Slings: -1, Bows: 0, Xbows: 0, Throw: 0, Armour: -2, Dodge: -1, Stealth: 2, Stab: 0, Shields: -2, Traps: -1, UC: 1!, Splcast: -1, Conj: 1, Hexes: -1, Charms: -2, Summ: -1, Nec: -3*, Tloc: -1, Tmut: -1, Fire: -1, Ice: 1, Air: -3, Earth: 3!, Poison: 0, Inv: 1, Evo: 0, Exp: 0, HP: 1, MP: 0 11:33:32 I do think that turning into a fully living creature when you're normally not one also feels weird to me, too, though 11:33:35 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 11:33:43 dunno, maybe it makes you all bulky and stuff 11:33:52 spiderform golem 11:33:57 -!- phyphor_ is now known as phyphor 11:34:05 err, gargoyle 11:34:07 i would say it's not great to make a whole school of magic unusable unless there's a really good reason for it 11:34:17 are gargoyles really necessary? i mean, ok, SE is gone now, so not that close to another race, but they still seem kind of bad? 11:34:25 alefury: I am making changes! 11:34:25 i havent played any, i just mean the concept 11:34:40 its constantly being revised, and still there is no end of the troubles 11:34:48 if I recall correctly, statue form used to change your size to SIZE_LARGE 11:35:00 MarvinPA: I do agree generally. I guess it's just there are a few odd cases, and I wondered if it would be thematically similar to undead also not being able to do this, since they don't have 'living flesh' or whatever 11:35:01 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:35:20 can djinnis do it? 11:35:25 are they "living flesh" 11:35:30 they are living fire 11:35:37 Djinn are kind of not the greatest example of consistency in that regard, I think 11:35:41 :) 11:35:54 (I have been in a road collision so haven't been active for a while - I apologise if I'm ay out of touch) 11:36:36 DracoOmega: the thematic explanation is being same as angels/demons, which can mutate -- up to the point of demonspawn having demonic parts as SOURCE of mutations 11:36:47 alefury: Also, I think they've been revised repeatedly in sort of a haphazard way. I am hoping for something a little more cohesive :) 11:36:55 just saying, if people just cant make gr interesting no matter how often they try, maybe dropping gr should be considered 11:37:09 of course you may yet succeed :) 11:37:34 alefury: all three species are merged "only as a test" 11:38:29 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:38:32 obviously, I guess most people consider them to be set in stone already :p 11:38:53 Well, a lot of people play trunk like it WAS stable 11:38:56 That just updates frequently 11:39:10 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: No buffer space available] 11:39:15 Which is kind of good from a testing perspective, of course 11:39:21 well, dj and lo are at least interesting, just maybe a bit broken 11:39:22 Since it means people actually play it :P 11:39:31 cant say the same for gr 11:39:36 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 11:39:37 MarvinPA: why did you remove spider form clinging? I agree about gargoyles: it made no sense, theme-wise they can fly to a wall and hang there, but not walk around it. 11:39:55 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 11:39:58 but spider? That was supposed to be the main gimmick of spiders when the branch got added. 11:40:05 fwiw i have actually used spider form clinging once or twice 11:40:09 i mentioned in the commit and discussed here a bunch, it's just not an interesting or good player mechanic 11:40:19 sure, it quite failed short, but let's not have inconsistencies for no reason 11:40:37 ie, either clinging for both players and monsters, or for none 11:40:44 we could probably remove it from monsters too since the whole watery corridors spider layout idea is gone now anyway 11:40:49 yeah 11:41:04 mostly some old spider portal vaults used clinging 11:41:51 not that it is much of a stretch for actual real spiders to be able to do something that players transformed into spiders cannot, but yeah it's not much of an exciting monster mechanic either anyway 11:44:25 DracoOmega: i'd say, if you want to restrict transformations, restrict _all_ of them like how undead are 11:44:32 evilmike: That's what I meant, yes 11:44:33 less confusing than being selective about which spells work 11:45:09 but for gargoyles, i dont think "rot instead of mutate" would make sense if that's the route your going down. Or mutations at all, really. 11:45:48 well, if youre going to make them into actual nonliving thingies, do it properly imo 11:46:33 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:46:48 -!- Vizer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:54 if theyre just going to be a little nonliving (eating, no torment resistance, etc) they should also be able to transform 11:47:09 I can see arguments either way, to be honest 11:47:11 -!- Vizer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:47:26 including the slightly statuesque --> more statuesque transformation 11:47:27 make it so gargoyles eat bones instead of meat 11:47:29 I hadn't meant to affect the way they mutate, so maybe it is best not to do anything with this, either 11:47:52 (that wasn't really a serious suggestion btw) 11:47:58 -!- Psyknux has quit [Quit: My work is end \(^o^)/] 11:48:00 alefury: They are getting half torment resistance like statue form does, incidentally 11:49:05 -!- ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 11:49:47 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:50:03 another gr thing, do they actually need a gimmick? thinking about it, even without one they seem pretty well differentiated already. unarmed + aux + bulk 11:51:29 Well, the 'gimmick' I am working on at the moment is essentially low hp + high natural AC, with the various resists/quirks that come from being made of stone. And nothing more complicated than that, really. 11:51:54 So they should be a straightforward race, but still one that feels distinct from others 11:51:54 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:52:27 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 11:52:38 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:12 woo, ac 11:53:19 always a good thing 11:53:36 And there are no low hp races that focus on AC instead of EV 11:54:29 wow brand selection for randarts is... weird 11:54:38 (i assume nobody will miss orc slaying) 11:54:48 not me 11:55:00 Nope! 11:55:03 And weird how? 11:55:11 Just in terms of code organization, or relative rarities? 11:56:20 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 11:56:20 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:26 !source _get_randart_properties 11:56:34 i have no clue what the relative rarities work out as :P 11:56:39 Lines pasted to http://pastie.org/8128610 11:56:44 it just does weird enum things 11:56:50 -!- Quashie_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:50 DracoOmega: i think it would mostly make high rolls on big spells proportionally more dangerous 11:57:25 alefury: Well, AC is less spiky than EV in general 11:57:25 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:57:43 good thing orc slaying is one of the random enums it messes with there or i would have missed this file while grepping :P 11:57:43 proprt[ARTP_BRAND] = SPWPN_FLAMING + random2(2); 11:57:45 Ewwww 11:57:49 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:50 indeed 11:58:18 Really, that should all be some kind of random_choose_weighted list 11:58:24 yes, but EV is better at reducing average damage when very high damage rolls are involved, while AC is better when low damage rolls are involved 11:59:17 Actually, that whole function looks somewhat unpleasant 12:01:01 tengu already are low hp dudes with auxes, cant really think of other reasons against it 12:01:11 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:25 These are sort of looking to be anti-tengu, in a way 12:01:41 Similar in a few ways, and then inverse in others 12:02:24 -!- Kintak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:03:01 -!- zkyp_ is now known as zkyp 12:03:02 -!- archaeo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:03:12 -!- Kintak has joined ##crawl-dev 12:03:17 Speaking of auxes though, I had pondered the idea of removing fangs, giving claws 2 back, and making their UC apt 0 instead of +1. So that they might have better theoretical UC than many races, but also not have it be their best weapon skill. I don't know how interesting that would be in practice or not, though. 12:03:47 Or maybe even -1, I don't know 12:03:47 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:04:00 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:25 mostly would make them worse transmuters 12:04:26 i wonder if the special case where pan lords could get orc/drac slaying melee attacks only if you're playing an orc/drac respectively was ever added to ??trivia 12:04:42 that should probably be removed 12:04:46 because its fucking stupid 12:04:53 or is it already? 12:04:57 yes like 2 years ago 12:04:57 MarvinPA: Haha, neat :P 12:05:03 whew 12:05:13 but i just remembered it looking at pan lord generation, it's a good trivia i think! 12:05:17 It is! 12:05:33 dracoomega: ghouls 12:05:43 What about them? 12:06:12 ...oh, they actually have -1 in all weapons and 1 in UC nevermind 12:06:24 Yes, UC is definitely their highest weapon apt 12:06:30 Gargoyles currently have +1 maces, though 12:06:31 * tenofswords shrugs 12:07:08 casual (L15 LOFi) ERROR in 'mon-act.cc' at line 2462: infinite handle_monsters() loop, mons[0 of 27] is orc (Swamp:2) 12:07:38 sounds like a good crash 12:07:50 No race currently simultaneously has claws and also a weapon apt better than their claws 12:09:47 well i'd make it a fairly noticeable between uc apt and weapon apt if you want to try that 12:10:05 -!- bonghitz_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:10:24 You figure that people will mostly use UC with claws even at a +1 difference? 12:10:57 I don't know if it's worth trying or not, compared to this other stuff I am doing, but it was a thought 12:12:19 well if it's claws 2 then quite possibly 12:12:29 whats the point of making them both good and bad at uc? could just do nothing instead for pretty much the same result. as i said, mostly giving claws and lowering the uc apt would make them worse transmuters. also, better uc at 0 skill. 12:12:49 but yeah i would probably just give them ok weapon apts and ok uc apt and no claws 12:13:04 alefury: Well, the basic idea was that perhaps it would make the choice between UC and non-UC more very slightly more interesting, but I don't know if it would actually accomplish this, mind :P 12:14:23 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Iceweasel 22.0/20130626043228]] 12:17:39 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2321-g99da39b (34) 12:18:39 what's the point in using UC in forms, anyway? 12:18:51 huh orcish weapons have a 50% chance of having their ego removed if they had one 12:19:04 more exciting revelations 12:19:20 MarvinPA: that's to balance the ton of weapons and armour you get in Orc 12:19:51 rather heavy-handedly 12:20:06 all those poor orc knight bands in mid-D and Vaults, missing out on potential brands 12:20:06 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:21:41 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:24:19 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:26:16 -!- marquess is now known as psuedo 12:27:06 why does freenode get attacked all the time? 12:29:43 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:30:52 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:31:13 i dont know if this is the case any more, but back in the day people used to DOS irc networks when attempting to take over channels 12:34:40 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 12:35:43 -!- nooodl_ is now known as nooodl 12:36:34 -!- ackack has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:41:20 kilobyte: imo TGW had the best idea for it: make forms able to use relevant weapon skills 12:42:16 but the degree to which UC and tmut are tied together is really regrettable 12:42:43 should be with more non-form spells instead of finangling with forms 12:42:47 that too 12:43:12 but there should still be plenty of fun form spells that work even if you aren't good at UC 12:43:21 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:43:35 Statue form does work okay with non-UC stuff, though not AS well as with UC 12:43:41 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 12:44:15 necromutation sure is necromutation 12:44:15 speaking of statue form it would really be worth reevaluating statue form vs. stoneskin vs. gargoyles vs. lava orcs vs. scale muts... 12:44:25 oh and also petrify 12:44:37 -!- Quashie_ has quit [Read error: No buffer space available] 12:46:33 tenofswords: Well, I actually think necromutation is good, unlike a lot of people 12:47:00 probably cold lava orcs should have something other than stoneskin it doesn't work very well 12:47:16 and probably it should overlap a lot with what gargoyles end up getting 12:47:23 me too, necromutation is a good spell 12:47:49 my idea would be to ue either Fighting, XL or Tmut for combat when transformed in a form that has no weapons 12:48:22 I stayed neutral on it! 12:48:33 I think it's fine to have UC based tmut spells like we do now. There should just be more forms that also use weapons 12:48:50 kilobyte: tmut doesn't really make sense imo 12:49:12 evilmike: there should be at least one UC based one, but i think we have way too many - we'd need to add several forms to even hit 50/50 12:49:19 Eronarn: I'm talking about beastly forms. Using fists has nothing in common with using teeth. 12:49:20 thats a silly goal 12:49:30 arbitrary, too 12:49:45 theres no reason for it to be 50/50, there just needs to be enough weapon using stuff for it to be interesting 12:49:50 or, even more, a wisp's strand 12:49:53 50/50 is arbitrary yes 12:50:43 evilmike: i'd rather see the UC part from forms like statue form, or modify lichform to have a better unarmed brand than draining 12:50:48 but not from stuff like spider form or ice beast 12:51:00 spider form is great 12:51:31 it would be greater if you weren't pigeonholed into UC to make effective use of it 12:51:39 -!- ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 12:52:08 it's already overpowered :P 12:52:10 do you even play this game? 12:52:35 not talking about balance, balance is easy to adjust 12:52:50 "we've done so well at it" 12:53:49 crawl is definitely more balanced than it used to be 12:54:52 "through people who have lots of experience" 12:59:19 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 12:59:19 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:59:59 -!- ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 13:01:06 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 13:01:56 -!- moxian has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:03:38 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2322-g1bc77d2: Make vampire bats magenta. 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1bc77d242ca2 13:03:38 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2323-g1addaaf: Bye bye clinging. 10(37 minutes ago, 26 files, 26+ 246-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1addaaf8ee92 13:04:47 welp 13:06:14 crawl is no longer clingy? 13:07:03 -!- morik_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:08:09 -!- Hailey has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 13:13:54 <|amethyst> elliott: apparently all you have to do to get cTele removed is give it as a racial intrinsic :) 13:14:22 clearly one just has to mention that monsters can't use ctele 13:14:29 and woosh there it goes 13:17:03 fr: monster ctele 13:18:00 fr: c monstertele 13:18:13 tele c monster 13:19:57 -!- Duralumin has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:26:50 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:34:05 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:14 03MarvinPA 07* 0.13-a0-2324-g405c76c: Remove the orc slaying brand 10(18 minutes ago, 15 files, 31+ 80-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=405c76ce053f 13:36:16 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:39:17 The only good weapons of orc slaying I've found would have been equally good without any brand :P 13:42:54 -!- kronusdark has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 13:45:24 is there much reason to keep deep dwarf monsters? 13:45:37 looks like they haven't proven to be a good idea 13:46:26 yeah, i don't think they really work 13:47:02 death knights are even the only ones with something out of ordinary 13:47:24 and unborns, but those cause confusion 13:48:26 rip dwarf branch 13:48:36 holies, too 13:48:38 should just throw out everything but the ones that actually spawn now 13:48:52 -!- Stendarr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:49:23 holies cause confusion, or haven't proven to be a good idea? 13:50:04 -!- Guest17879 is now known as elliott 13:50:39 there's no use for any but old angels/daevas 13:50:46 shedu don't really work 13:51:25 only pearl dragons, silver stars and ophanim even have custom code 13:51:30 er, and phoenixes 13:52:07 paladins suck, so do apises; spirits don't even spawn 13:53:12 eh, i agree they could use improvement 13:54:19 I think apises are currently fine after they got a buff and were placed in forest 13:54:23 -!- Nakat0my has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:54:45 cherubs would be fine if they were more ranged-focused and once their buff-others actually works 13:54:50 kill all paladins 13:55:13 (and boot out spirits sure) 13:58:13 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:58:46 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 14:01:26 MarvinPA: I think death knights and unborn are quite fine now, personally (and they actually exist, too!) 14:02:04 well unborn could just become a non-deep dwarf L which they should probably do anyway 14:02:31 Well, I suppose that is also okay 14:02:39 But I think the base of how they both function at the moment is functional 14:02:47 death knights could stay or change species or something, the other dd monsters definitely have no reason to exist though 14:02:58 Yes, some of the other DD monsters are terrible 14:03:07 And even berserkers are sort of iffy (and also don't exist, so...) 14:03:13 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:03:53 Yes, I suppose I am not married to either of them staying a deep dwarf, I guess, but I wouldn't like to see the monsters just plain cut 14:04:42 making them non-deep dwarves is probably a strict improvement since non-regen is a really bad monster trait to use 14:04:55 I think it has very little practical impact here, though 14:05:04 And death knights do heal themselves while you're around anyway! 14:05:14 But it's not like non-healing ADDS anything to them either, sure 14:06:12 MarvinPA: it has a negative impact 14:06:18 people will not think DDDK is a good combo :( 14:06:24 we have so many uses for the word "spirit" that axing the monster is a chore 14:09:23 To be honest, I think unborn might be better if they were living, even. (Like, a monster with that spellset, anyway) 14:09:40 Notable living threats seems good for Crypt threat variety (since you can't dispel them, etc.) 14:10:12 * kilobyte goes to dispel stuff 14:10:14 using an axe 14:11:47 -!- reaver has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13:03 And what exactly are you removing? 14:14:20 the holy spirit 14:14:34 @??spirit 14:14:34 spirit (08p) | Spd: 4 | HD: 7 | HP: 41-66 | AC/EV: 3/19 | 08holy, 10doors, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(37), 03poison, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy, 04napalm | XP: 66 | Sp: blink away | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 14:14:52 I'd like death knights and unborn to stay, I'm not attached to them being deep dwarves though. the other DD monsters can go away 14:14:53 Well, I don't think anyone will miss those, at least 14:15:03 Since they also don't exist 14:15:06 (Spirits, I mean) 14:15:10 the main problem I see about death knights is that @ is overloaded, so making them a generic "death knight" monster isnt a great idea 14:15:26 Yes, there was something else I wanted to make for Crypt that WOULD be an @, but @ is so very full... 14:16:13 What's some other race that makes good DKs? (Or are often DKs, anyway) 14:16:22 !lg * won bg=DK s=crace 14:16:23 Unknown field: bg 14:16:29 !lg * won background=DK s=crace 14:16:30 Unknown field: background 14:16:34 !lg * won class=DK s=crace 14:16:35 289 games for * (won class=DK): 38x Minotaur, 34x Demonspawn, 24x Merfolk, 19x Hill Orc, 15x Troll, 12x Deep Dwarf, 12x Human, 11x Ogre, 11x Centaur, 11x Draconian, 9x Mountain Dwarf, 8x Spriggan, 8x Naga, 7x Kobold, 7x Mummy, 7x Tengu, 7x Ghoul, 6x Halfling, 6x Demigod, 6x Vampire, 5x Octopode, 5x High Elf, 5x Sludge Elf, 4x Deep Elf, 3x Felid, 3x Kenku, 3x Lava Orc, Gargoyle, Djinni, Grotesk 14:16:41 w/r/t holies, a lot of people seem to like the holy pan level, it might be a good idea to just add alternate layouts. put uniq_holy_pan on them so you only get 1 per game 14:16:57 it's a bit like a portal vault in a way, since it's a special level that you can only get once 14:17:22 I like hill orc DK 14:17:28 Well, then Beogh gets them, though 14:17:44 Could be a bit oddball and make them centaurs? So they could outrun players! :P 14:17:52 Or minotaurs for a more plain option 14:18:36 -!- trojan21665 has quit [] 14:19:03 finally crawl is recognising classic player combos like CeDK 14:19:11 Hahaha 14:19:14 Well.... 14:19:20 probably best to keep it speed 10 14:19:46 -!- Voker57 has quit [] 14:19:48 I think minotaur is the best plain option anyway 14:20:55 I guess there's lightgrey @, the "human" monster is only in a tiny number of vaults and should probably be made into a dummy monster anyway 14:21:54 That monster has problems anyway, yes 14:22:01 Since its HD and hp vary so wildly for no obvious reason 14:22:08 But do you think minotaur is a bad idea for some specific reason? 14:22:23 they could just be called death knights 14:22:25 and be on @ 14:22:35 and I guess be implicitly HumanoidDK 14:22:36 Did you miss the first part of this conversation? 14:22:49 that is quite possible 14:22:53 oh I see evilmike's line now 14:24:13 with draining, there's no reason to overstuff @ 14:24:27 replace necromancers 14:24:30 especially since there's Jorgrun and player deep dwarves 14:24:50 well, you now got white @, with no paladins 14:24:56 (yeah necromancers :p) 14:25:08 minotaurs sort of have the thing where they don't exist outside of labs 14:25:19 there's nothing wrong with making the enemy a minotaur, i just think the enemy does enough as a human (or dwarf), and doesn't need horns or crazy melee damage 14:25:20 (except they spawn in forest now for some reason?) 14:26:00 forest minotaurs feel weird, yeah 14:26:31 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2325-g0763e4b: Purge lack of special shouts for Pa/Th/Pr/Re/St ghosts. 10(26 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 20-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0763e4ba1f2e 14:26:31 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2326-g2d0226f: Ghostbusterize the holy spirit. 10(12 minutes ago, 17 files, 13+ 135-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2d0226fa41dd 14:26:31 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2327-ge13e7da: Make monster paladins consistent with player ones. 10(in the future, 17 files, 20+ 68-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e13e7da024c7 14:26:47 They don't seem to be doing much notable either, I will admit 14:27:03 It was an experimental idea 14:27:22 could you at least replace the paladins in the holy pan level with angels or something? 14:27:24 I wouldn't mind the minotaur being a unique 14:27:24 Though I don't think minotaurs need be necessarily confined to labyrinths all the time either 14:31:48 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:33:39 I'm working on a patch to clean-up makeitem.cc and I could use a little help-could anybody answer a couple questions? 14:34:37 fr: minitaur guarding the entrance to a labrynth 14:34:45 labyrinth * 14:36:10 -!- Ganrao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36:27 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:37:02 -!- ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 14:37:10 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 14:37:51 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 14:38:34 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 14:38:58 -!- dcss53027 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:39:20 -!- Blazinghand_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:41:18 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:55 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 14:43:42 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:44:15 woah 14:44:26 what is this beogh status that the orc priest gave to me? 14:44:35 press A to convert 14:44:39 -!- Grimalki1 is now known as Grimalkin 14:44:40 OH MAN 14:44:48 super cool 14:45:04 (now with lava orcs too!) 14:45:19 thanks whoever made that 14:46:54 -!- localhost has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:47:28 sorry, a not A. (a Y, usually) 14:52:40 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:54:01 -!- mumra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:55:27 -!- tswett_ is now known as tswett 14:56:16 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:58:48 -!- TiggA has joined ##crawl-dev 14:59:03 good evening.. 15:00:04 -!- elliott is now known as Guest68635 15:01:25 -!- minqmay has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:01:43 -!- steve2 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:02:08 -!- Guest68635 is now known as elliott 15:03:47 -!- elliott is now known as Guest24565 15:04:07 -!- Guest24565 has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 15:04:17 -!- elliott_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:04:19 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:04:37 -!- elliott_ is now known as elliott 15:05:22 -!- Vandal is now known as Ganrao 15:05:45 -!- Ganrao is now known as Ganrao| 15:05:47 -!- Ganrao| is now known as Ganrao 15:10:01 -!- Egregious has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:12:48 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 15:14:30 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:14:57 -!- Stelpa_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:15:16 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:16 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:17:17 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 15:17:32 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 15:19:04 -!- ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:19:18 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:19:18 -!- Sabaki has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:19:35 -!- sprort has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:19:50 -!- Sabaki_|2 is now known as Sabaki 15:19:51 -!- scummos_ has quit [Read error: No buffer space available] 15:19:54 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:19:54 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:22:50 -!- Aponym has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:23:14 is there any file I need to modify after adding a new .cc file? 15:23:25 I figured make would pick it up automatically but it's not 15:23:32 Makefile.obj 15:23:36 buppy: The makefile? 15:24:01 kilobyte: thanks 15:24:19 remember to "git add" it; it you want to diff during developement and use commit -a, it may be good to always write "git add -N" 15:25:05 alright 15:26:53 is there any point keeping the TeX documentation? 15:27:11 it hasn't been used or updated in three ages and two forevers 15:28:28 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 15:28:45 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2328-g24dd112: Move a Dwarf entry vault to the Crypt. 10(45 minutes ago, 2 files, 22+ 23-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=24dd11255c09 15:28:45 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2329-g9e2e7ff: Move a Dwarf entry vault to be an Okawaru altar. 10(31 minutes ago, 1 file, 22+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9e2e7ff7df14 15:28:45 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2330-gf5a913e: Remove the Dwarven Hall. 10(9 minutes ago, 13 files, 50+ 690-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f5a913ea86ca 15:28:45 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2331-g1e52356: Return (#ifdefed) a prematurely purged use of orc slaying. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1e523561e62f 15:28:45 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2332-gd689486: Purge a function. 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d689486464fc 15:29:55 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: gn8] 15:31:39 -!- ncampion has quit [Quit: ncampion] 15:32:14 |amethyst: ec2 price cuts http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2013/07/09/price-reductions-on-amazon-ec2-dedicated-instances/ 15:33:20 rip Dwarf 15:33:42 first secret doors are removed, now this 15:33:53 when will the devs stop destroying dwarves :C 15:34:01 ??badreddit[42] 15:34:02 badreddit[42/42]: I'd say 90% of my deaths early are from random unfairness. A good half of my games have Sigmund or Orc Priests on D2. The worst part is that means I'm pretty much getting a ghost on D2. 15:34:08 ??badreddit[41] 15:34:09 badreddit[41/42]: "Secret doors have been removed" Another Deep Dwarf nerf. Rip In Peace dwarf race. 15:38:16 -!- notlainiw has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:00 -!- Zannick has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 15:39:12 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 15:39:45 -!- SwissStopwatch has joined ##crawl-dev 15:39:49 hi, i'm new to c++ developing. which ide is the best one for stone soup? and how can i import the source so that i can work with it? 15:39:58 ontoclasm: dwarf will be back one day, as dwarf fortress 15:40:14 TiggA: nano, git clone 15:40:21 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2333-gfcdd86e: Axe an invalid comment. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fcdd86e17ca9 15:40:21 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2334-g28ae86c: Add a bunch of missing #ifdefs. 10(in the future, 4 files, 23+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=28ae86c91441 15:40:28 emacs 15:40:51 -!- reaver has quit [] 15:40:57 Eronarn: nano?!?!? That's a heresy as big as that of those foul vi and emacs worshippers! 15:41:03 nano-editor.org <-- this one? 15:41:19 (ok, ok, they could have used notepad or anything that ends in .exe) 15:41:20 for win(7)? 15:41:49 i'm familiar with netbeans. but never did an c++ one 15:44:40 nano is not actually an IDE, just a text editor 15:44:40 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 15:45:13 -!- darktwinge has joined ##crawl-dev 15:45:38 -!- ChanServ has quit [shutting down] 15:46:02 but a lot of programmers on Unix systems tend to avoid IDEs because Unix systems tend to ship a rich programming environment already 15:47:14 you should use ed, the official editor of unix 15:47:22 (just kidding, don't) 15:48:20 TiggA: for win7 i would recommend VS2012 15:48:24 -!- mumra_ is now known as mumra 15:48:56 TiggA: you can use VS Express which is the free download 15:49:46 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:49:53 -!- Grunt_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:50:35 ok, vs2010 c++ express i already got, but how do i import the source with this. tried but failed. 15:50:51 only vs2012 is properly supported 15:51:04 aw. ok. will try. thanks. 15:51:29 come back tomorrow if i have further questions. bye 15:51:43 kilobyte: blue_anna_dwarven_crypt has the wrong entry tag; I'm not in a position to fix it at this exact moment. 15:51:44 -!- TiggA has left ##crawl-dev 15:52:29 !tell TiggA see the compilation instructions in INSTALL.txt, you can actually compile with VS2012 too, although it's best to have msysgit compilation working too 15:52:30 mumra: OK, I'll let tigga know. 15:53:23 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53:53 -!- Melum has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- psuedo has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- Bloaxor has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- Azzkikr has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- vosai has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- y2s82 has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- myp has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- imantor has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- johlstei__ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- Grunt has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- Pedjt has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- Tene has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- sk3 has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:53 -!- Twinge has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:54 -!- lavos has quit [*.net *.split] 15:53:56 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2335-gd9a66ce: Axe a wrong tag on blue_anna_dwarven_crypt (Grunt) 10(in the future, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d9a66ce743dd 15:54:07 Thanks :) 15:54:50 buppy: I've coded on a MUD using ed for years. It worked without having to download/re-upload the code, and isn't that bad once you get proficient. 15:55:13 -!- Grunt_ is now known as Grunt 15:55:14 it was a much improved version of ed, though -- what you get on a typical Unix system is a bad joke 15:55:28 -!- Tene_ has quit [Changing host] 15:55:36 -!- Tene_ is now known as Tene 15:55:37 -!- wHATEver is now known as Guest68177 15:55:50 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:57:33 the complete source of a typical version of ed: #!/bin/sh while read x;do echo '?';done 15:57:48 sed-based programming 16:00:53 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 16:04:05 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 16:04:33 -!- ackack has left ##crawl-dev 16:04:47 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 16:08:42 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:08:42 -!- crate has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:10:56 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11:30 -!- crate_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:16:56 -!- _wh1te has joined ##crawl-dev 16:17:31 -!- Zannick has quit [*.net *.split] 16:17:32 -!- Sabaki has quit [*.net *.split] 16:17:32 -!- Xjs|moonshine has quit [*.net *.split] 16:17:32 -!- agentgt has quit [*.net *.split] 16:17:32 -!- wh1te has quit [*.net *.split] 16:17:32 -!- twzt_ has quit [*.net *.split] 16:17:32 -!- ChongLi has quit [*.net *.split] 16:17:32 -!- mee has quit [*.net *.split] 16:17:32 -!- Henzell has quit [*.net *.split] 16:19:06 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:19:18 edit all files with cat 16:20:16 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2336-gbf956be: Give player gargoyles permaflight at xl 14 (like black draconians) 10(7 hours ago, 3 files, 17+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bf956beb6f21 16:20:16 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2337-g4080c90: Make gargoyles take 1/2 torment damage (like statue form does) 10(7 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4080c90117a9 16:20:16 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2338-g501ad9a: Adjust gargoyle resists 10(7 hours ago, 2 files, 5+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=501ad9a7b689 16:20:16 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2339-gc018806: Prevent nonliving players from bleeding 10(7 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c018806cb44e 16:20:16 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2340-gcc7316a: Remove some dead code regarding gargoyle petrification 10(7 hours ago, 2 files, 1+ 21-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cc7316a4624c 16:20:16 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2341-g5f8dac5: Make player gargoyles vulnerable to LRD and shatter 10(7 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5f8dac56acc4 16:20:16 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2342-g4c17537: Give gargoyles hefty natural AC, but very low HP 10(7 hours ago, 2 files, 5+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4c17537119d7 16:20:16 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2343-g505d25b: Adjust Statue Form for gargoyles 10(4 hours ago, 2 files, 10+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=505d25ba14a2 16:20:16 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2344-g86ead04: Update the mutations screen for gargoyle pseudomutations 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 17+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=86ead04141c7 16:20:16 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2345-g7eb6d65: Update the other mutation screen too 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7eb6d65cce29 16:20:16 ... and 2 more commits 16:20:48 gargoyles should bleed dust 16:20:54 DracoOmega: could you stop everyone and everything from bleeding :P 16:21:23 pfft only -2 HP, gargoyles newest op race?? 16:21:59 elliott: Well, we can see how it goes and adjust afterward :P 16:22:18 how much AC do they get on D:1? 16:22:22 additional, I mean 16:22:29 i had a silly idea for tengu 16:22:49 4, at the moment 16:22:52 -!- RichardSimmons has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:22:55 is it +4 ac and then linear scaling to +20 by xl 27 16:22:57 DragoOmega how did you make all those pop in? 16:22:57 (still) 16:23:01 the messages 16:23:15 dracoomega pushes in waves 16:23:16 Ganrao: Chei automatically posts updates for new commits added to trunk 16:23:16 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 16:23:17 Ganrao: whenever someone commits something the bot reports it 16:23:30 oh so these are things that are going live? 16:23:40 <|amethyst> not "live" until the servers rebuild 16:23:40 well, next time the server updates 16:23:45 btw how bad is jorgrun for them now 16:23:45 -!- pantaril has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:50 Not as bad as you might think 16:23:55 The flying negates the shatter vulnerability 16:23:57 <|amethyst> You'll see e.g. "< Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2319-g50c6e87 (34) 16:24:00 And you're immune to petrification 16:24:04 so now Gargoyles will have Flight instead of Cling? 16:24:10 LRD is kind of like hellfire burst, but he won't use it if you're near him 16:24:25 maybe I should just not update my saves 16:24:28 oh yeah do they still have trample resistance? that could probably go if they have other stuff that's actually interesting now 16:24:29 So probably in a lot of situations he's actually less scary than to other races 16:24:37 will have to see 16:24:49 MarvinPA: They do, but I wouldn't care if you axed it either 16:24:49 can they also lose their ice apt 16:24:51 if they still have that 16:24:53 elliott: They did 16:24:54 Gargoyles: Kenku you can actually play 16:24:55 righto 16:24:55 ok good 16:25:06 Chei missed an apt adjustment commit :P 16:25:09 DracoOmega: So the vuln-to-LRD is less than it would be for petrified/statue form characters? 16:25:14 Yes 16:25:23 A little 16:25:35 I think all those apt changes are good at least 16:25:41 If Gargs get free flight, why would anyone play Kenku now? 16:25:47 what's a kenku 16:25:51 tengu have perks 16:25:52 Well, tengu do lots of other things gargoyles don't 16:25:55 tengu get speed and ev when flying 16:25:59 oh ok 16:25:59 and have rockin' apts 16:26:01 Also, the interesting thing about tengu flight isn't that they fly 16:26:02 so they have better flight 16:26:06 It's that they fly FAST 16:26:11 and also have +ev 16:26:13 Yes 16:26:15 nice 16:26:19 their flight is really very good 16:26:24 i think tengu and gargoyle make a cute pair now 16:26:26 it's just that they're so bad in many other ways 16:26:30 btw can we make tengu flight one notch faster 16:26:36 -!- oberstein has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:26:43 wow after nerfing runningboots??? 16:26:45 speed 9/11.111 or whatever is kinda irritating 16:26:45 now we just need a gargoyle class monster for late D to pair with tengu reavers 16:27:00 btw would anyone care to help me with some (possibly) basic questions about patching Crawl in PM? I have an idea for a good patch I want to write and submit 16:27:11 so how does being vulnerable to shatter while flying work 16:27:13 but what is free with a monster that already covers conjurations and melee 16:27:27 SwissStopwatch: Currently it just acts as if you were flying and non-vulnerable (I think that is odd though) 16:27:42 But that is also true when used against monsters and such 16:27:49 So monster gargoyles were always shatter-resistant 16:27:59 monster LRD is sort of scarier than shatter anyway I think 16:28:10 for one because things actually have LRD 16:28:14 and now it won't even need walls! 16:28:40 (and it ignores ac of the target so now late D is filled with random hellions) 16:28:44 are skalds playable? 16:28:55 so we have three and a half races with some kind of built-in levitation-esque ability 16:28:58 alefury: yes, they're pretty good 16:28:59 can we just remove liquids :p 16:29:03 tenofswords: But they are slow hellions who aren't immune to their own blasts 16:29:08 i heard all the spells suck except infusion? 16:29:22 so just how much should a gargoyle expect to take if jorgrun or a dtee LRDs them 16:29:22 okay, better metaphor, extra fire giants you can't resist? 16:29:22 maybe you should try them 16:29:24 regen is still good, and spectral weapon is good once you get a good weapon 16:29:26 I think spectral weapon is at least okay? 16:29:34 MarvinPA: maybe i will -.- 16:29:39 presumably it's ignoring their AC 16:29:42 imo flying rock is pretty weird 16:29:43 and of course shroud is shroud 16:29:47 - realism police 16:29:48 SwissStopwatch: 2d19 for an EE and 2d23 from Jorgrun 16:29:53 elliott: you should watch that tv show 16:29:59 the one with the gargoyles 16:30:07 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:30:07 2d19 ignores AC? is that seriously all 16:30:20 because LRD definitely feels like it hits a lot harder than that against normnal dudes 16:30:25 Well, it's more against statue/petrified stuff 16:30:35 I was slightly kinder to gargoyles, since they can't STOP being a statue 16:30:47 (Normally it would be 3 instead of 2 up there) 16:30:58 yes but I mean is it just me or does that feel like less than wall LRD on something normal a lot of the time 16:31:11 That is what wall LRD does, too 16:31:16 Well, 3d19, etc. 16:31:20 huh 16:31:21 Unless using metal or something 16:31:29 it does feel like a lot less though 16:31:39 Possibly you notice the high rolls more than the low ones 16:31:45 this is almost certainly true 16:32:00 the only time i've tangled with ee's a lot is as a felid so uh 16:32:15 well given the way AC is supposedly applied against LRD it feels like it's a lot more damaging than that 16:32:30 I want to help improve the UI, I already have an Arch VM set up with the repo cloned 16:32:58 oh yeah, anyway, my stupid tengu idea was: they get elemental cross-training where everyone else has anti-training 16:33:15 so they are encouraged to go ice/fire or air/earth 16:33:29 Even with cross-training, I can't see one wanting much earth 16:33:31 With a -3 base 16:33:55 tengu don't seem intended to be multielementalists really 16:33:59 except for fire/air 16:34:10 Yeah 16:34:13 well, why not? 16:34:27 i mean, fire/ice already have bad synergy even before antitraining 16:34:33 fr fire/air spell and give it to reavers 16:34:36 due to e.g. ozo's melting 16:34:37 yes so why would you do it 16:34:37 sounds kinda like looking for a gimmick 16:34:40 <|amethyst> that would put you in the situation where, if you want to train Earth, you're better off training air first 16:35:05 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 16:35:07 fire and ice even basically share several important spells 16:35:14 throw, bolt, storm 16:35:32 if you have one you're -seriously- not getting much from the other 16:35:37 i don't think adding fire/air, fire/ice, whatever spells makes sense with the way schools are currently defined 16:35:39 Which file in the repo is responsible for the armour descriptions in the "v" view? 16:36:01 <|amethyst> Ganrao: dat/descript/items.txt 16:36:07 <|amethyst> Ganrao: well, that's part of it 16:36:11 so each view is individually hard coded? was gonna say 16:36:35 <|amethyst> Ganrao: also describe.cc (functions _describe_armour etc) 16:36:40 This is more adding a line to the view that would show the minimum amount of EV you would lose 16:36:46 based on your current str 16:36:52 <|amethyst> Ganrao: ah, then describe.cc 16:36:57 thanks 16:37:05 <|amethyst> see append_armour_stats as well 16:38:00 03MarvinPA 07* 0.13-a0-2348-g42d4ca8: Remove trampling resistance 10(2 minutes ago, 4 files, 3+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=42d4ca813519 16:38:02 Would it be frivilous to trigger a rebuild over this? ^^; 16:38:36 you would think Ogres and Trolls would have Trample Resist just because they're so huge 16:38:38 and heavy 16:38:40 fr giant form people can get just for rTrample 16:38:42 at least Ogres are heavy 16:38:50 they do in a sense because of how size works 16:38:55 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 16:38:58 oh ok well that takes care of that :) 16:38:59 Well, ogres and trolls ARE harder to trample, yes 16:39:01 if only dragons weren't the largest things 16:39:11 i don't think they're big enough to make anything not trample them though 16:39:22 fr: pygmy elephants 16:39:23 Well, I think there are probability checks involved 16:39:23 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:26 That they are more likely to pass 16:39:28 I want to see a drawing of an Ogre grappling an Elephant :3 16:39:37 anybody have a rough estimate for how much damage a gargoyle is likely to take from a deep troll LRD blast? 16:39:44 the new changes sound interesting btw 16:39:44 2d19 16:39:51 i thought it was just based on whether it did damage 16:39:52 ok, thanks 16:39:56 -!- santiago has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:57 If it's cast ON them 16:39:58 2d19 was really lower than I expected by a lot somehow 16:39:59 right 16:40:17 If it turns out to be too tame, I could always up it to what statue form suffers :P 16:40:33 i think it needs to be reasonably tame 16:40:33 I think it will still turn out to be dangerous 16:40:35 too many troll packs late 16:40:41 and digging makes them hard to avoid 16:40:45 and really annoying because of how many times you can expect to get LRDed in a game now 16:41:01 several dozen really, at least 16:41:22 think of it as a mini hellfire that doesnt burn your scrolls 16:41:33 I think ogres at minimum block thrashing horrors 16:41:44 You're a bunch more resiliant to a number of other things, too 16:41:51 DracoOmega: btw i triggered an rhf rebuild since elliott asked, have you triggered other servers/should i? 16:41:52 getting hellfired while clearing D and Vaults is really not fun imo 16:42:02 MarvinPA: I hadn't. I was wondering if I shuold or not 16:42:08 sure why not 16:42:11 i think taking hellfire-type damage would be fine 16:42:16 Probably will update my save and I should be running into dtrees right after 16:42:24 SwissStopwatch: Keep in mind the blast size makes it hard for them to use it in crowds at all 16:42:28 except deep troll earth mages specifically are about the worst opponent to give that ability to 16:42:46 Unlike hellfire, where it's smaller and many demons are immune 16:42:46 okay, i think i found a bug a while ago, and i'm gonna try to reproduce it if somebody wants to watch on cszo 16:42:47 obviously should do the other branches before late D/V huh huh 16:42:59 MarvinPA: Does that mean I should do it, or that you just did? 16:43:02 it involves non-existant hydras 16:43:21 i'll do it since i already have the rebuild links up 16:43:22 well the problem is that some troll bands are um 16:43:24 (Can two people even trigger a rebuild at the same time?) 16:43:29 Or does it stop you from doing that? 16:43:30 3 elementalists and a shaman is pretty dangerous imo 16:43:36 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:41 hmhm, i have no idea 16:43:58 even without multiple mages, the other dudes blocking your progress to the mage is pretty rough 16:43:59 late D monsters are dangerous? sounds good 16:44:04 maybe all the apts being better now means I can suddenly cast haste 16:44:09 DracoOmega: am I meant to have 3 AC on D:1 16:44:27 wow. Describe.cc is almost 5k lines of code 16:44:36 Apparently I have a backlog of things I typed. 16:44:45 elliott: I thought it started at +4? 16:44:50 Are gargoyles supposed to be immune to the monster sleep spell? (And if so, shouldn't the AI care?) 16:44:51 DracoOmega: well I transferred the save 16:44:52 there's dangerous and then dangerous 16:44:55 I am a grsk with +0 leather 16:45:00 perhaps I need to qyes 16:45:07 swiss: clearly this all becomes acceptable when you finish with 20 ac at xl 27 16:45:10 elliott: If you have nothing to lose, try that and see if it makes a difference 16:45:15 20 _extra_ 16:45:17 Your flesh is cold resistant. 16:45:18 maybe 16:45:19 am I meant to still have this 16:45:22 I like having HP though 16:45:22 elliott: No 16:45:26 it's the best apt in crawl 16:45:26 perhaps the mutations are not being rejiggered 16:45:27 on save transfe 16:45:28 r 16:45:30 mutations don't get removed, no 16:45:35 Or added, I guess? 16:45:37 or readded or whatever 16:45:38 okay so I have -2 HP apt 16:45:41 with nothing good for it? :P 16:45:43 Hahahaha 16:45:45 except trample does because i added that to tags.cc 16:45:48 imo you should fix this, ideally 16:45:52 sounds like a challenge 16:45:57 show how good you are 16:45:58 so.... wow maybe I shouldn't update my save!! 16:45:59 well the ac isn't from mutations 16:46:00 so that should work 16:46:04 Well, the AC is a pseudomutation, so yes it should work 16:46:08 Probably take your armour off 16:46:10 And put it on again 16:46:14 And magically it will recalc your AC 16:46:16 nope 16:46:18 taking armour off gave me 0 ac 16:46:23 and now I have 3 ac putting it back on 16:46:27 Okay, seriously what the heck? 16:46:28 can I have a refund??? 16:46:32 heh 16:46:34 oh 16:46:37 also I have a -2 armour apt 16:46:38 oh i see the problem here 16:46:42 is this MarvinPA's fault 16:46:44 wait 16:46:50 I *did* transfer the save 16:46:55 no i don't, nevermind 16:46:58 elliott: Wait, how is that possible? Did you transfer BEFORE the rebuild? 16:47:04 well MarvinPA said he rebuilt it! 16:47:04 What version are you on? 16:47:06 and it asked me to transfer 16:47:14 g50c6e87 16:47:18 let me try saving and reloading 16:47:35 okay it did not prompt me to transfer again, tentatively blaming MarvinPA 16:47:43 wait what 16:47:44 are you 16:47:46 um 16:47:50 the servers aren't updated yet 16:47:55 "btw" 16:47:59 ok but you said you rebuilt rhf! 16:48:10 or is it still building 16:48:12 -!- clouded_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:48:15 i said i triggered the rebuild! 16:48:29 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:38 I'm expecting people to poke each other in the eyes any second now 16:48:43 CXX travel.o 16:48:46 "exciting live updates" 16:48:55 look MarvinPA, coolrobin expects swift and efficient service 16:49:03 Haha 16:49:05 we need faster builds than this! 16:49:06 elliott v. MarvinPA eyepoke duel 16:49:07 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2348-g42d4ca8 (34) 16:49:13 you wouldn't want to lose our contract 16:49:22 remember you can block 16:49:22 nice i triggered that like 5 minutes after rhf, amethyst wins best server award 16:49:24 hmm, is that s-z rebuild the current one 16:49:39 -!- clouded_ is now known as st_ 16:49:49 FR: pool all servers into a distributed distcc cluster, and do rebuilds together 16:49:53 <|amethyst> %git 16:49:53 07MarvinPA * 0.13-a0-2348-g42d4ca8: Remove trampling resistance 10(14 minutes ago, 4 files, 3+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=42d4ca813519 16:50:06 Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.13-a0-2348-g42d4ca8 (34) 16:50:06 kilobyte: are they all using the same paths? 16:50:13 same compiler revision? 16:50:38 <|amethyst> different compilers everywhere, and different paths for CAO and CDO compared to the other three 16:50:47 hmmn 16:51:01 and don't forget the headers 16:51:04 OK I guess it's time to find out whether going down to super bad HP is worth 40 AC 16:51:05 SamB: I'm joking, transferring .o files with debug info might be slower than actual compilation 16:51:07 or does distcc not care 16:51:09 <|amethyst> SamB: I think maybe distcc isn't being used (or isn't working) on rhf and clan 16:51:15 <|amethyst> err 16:51:16 so far (D:3) gr ac seems quite strong 16:51:20 <|amethyst> s/distcc/ccache/ 16:51:23 distcc sends preprocessed data 16:51:30 alefury: How can you be at D:3 already? 16:51:31 oh yeah 16:51:38 alefury: Didn't it only rebuild like 60 seconds ago? 16:51:40 hi I transferred and now I have 8 AC 16:51:41 tyvm 16:51:47 also 16:51:50 you gave me an armour skill! 16:51:51 I like that this is now some sort of mutant half-breed gargoyle too 16:51:59 but I still have rC yaaaaaay 16:52:18 elliott: Did you gain the rElec though? :P 16:52:28 no 16:52:32 guess I'll die to an egolem 16:52:41 FR: on high tension, turn into a molten gargoyle 16:52:47 Haha 16:52:53 DracoOmega: offline 16:52:57 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:52:59 alefury: Ah, okay 16:53:16 oh I have rRot now 16:53:19 also i just killed grinder and gained 2 levels -.- 16:53:22 that sounds okay 16:53:24 so yeah ac is good 16:53:24 -!- lavaelvesandslud has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:53:45 * kilobyte smites then hellfires alefury, hah! 16:53:45 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 16:54:04 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 16:54:08 spriggans somehow deal with that too... 16:54:13 I expect they are quite good, but they also have weaknesses to some things, including things no one else does 16:54:24 Well, spriggans can retreat a lot faster than you can, keep in mind 16:55:36 I think 8 AC with just deep elf HP on D:1-3 is a bit absurd 16:55:43 but we will see 16:55:51 Yes, it possibly is, sure 16:56:16 Though when I simmed then against various things comparing their defenses to spriggan ones, spriggans actually still came out the winner in a bunch of engagements 16:56:27 Spriggan ones at comparable levels/skills, I mean 16:56:42 Bloaxzorro: Orange Brain Tile: I think I prefer the previous one, simply because my eye easily tracks the wrinkles and lumps, and I can't do that with this one. Also, ring-shadow in-game. 16:56:49 So at -3 hp without fast movement or other stuff, possibly they would be worse than expected 16:56:52 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:57:18 fair enough 16:57:37 The scaling could also be changed to be non-linear, and give you less at that part of the earlygame where it can matter a ton 16:57:53 i was about to suggest that, yeah, could be a little slower early on 16:58:01 too bad you can't use PCs in !fight 16:58:21 Well, fsim is pretty good for guaging RELATIVE survivability, I think 16:58:25 !fight player v player 16:58:26 Compared to other character's defenses 16:58:50 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2348-g42d4ca8 (34) 16:59:33 Really, I think I may do that (but probably not today now) 16:59:42 -!- evilmike has quit [] 16:59:46 -!- Sky2_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:00:25 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.13-a0-2348-g42d4ca8 (34) 17:01:30 DracoOmega: well, at the same time you need it most early on 17:01:35 where a low HP apt hurts a lot 17:01:40 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:01:41 Well, also fair 17:01:43 Nivim: I can only imagine it's due to it being a bit TOO bright. 17:01:44 I will wait and watch, anyway 17:02:46 At the very least, they do seem more distinct! :P 17:02:58 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/brane.png is this better? 17:04:06 Bloaxzorro: isn't that the one i already implemented? 17:04:17 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/OrangeBrain.png 17:04:19 Almost. 17:04:53 -!- nickajeglin has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:04:54 So easy to tell if someone is playing new/old Gr 17:05:00 '8 AC by Lair:8?" 17:05:05 Bloaxzorro: that's an angry ice cream monster peering from behind a bush, right? 17:05:10 Yes. 17:05:16 Yes it is. 17:06:17 * kilobyte would give it metal legs to support movement :p 17:07:03 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:07:53 Make sure it has a cutesy little face and eyes in addition to that. 17:08:53 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:09:54 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 17:10:02 ok this is already my nightmare character 17:10:20 somehow losing about 30 HP for much better apts and 15 or so free AC feels like a horrid trade 17:10:25 Yes, it doesn't look to be having fun 17:10:41 mostly because of the number of things AC is really quite bad against 17:10:49 Do you think the old version would have been working better there? 17:11:00 I don't know how strong that character was pre-upgrade, after all 17:11:01 well if you were a new gargoyle from the start you would have trained more fighting and armour and stuff 17:11:04 presumably 17:11:18 I think you have to pretty much discard results from save transfers unless they're really early 17:11:19 well I was training fighting and armour (I have like 13 armour) 17:11:36 fighting is what I need/want more of really but more HP isn't that fast when you're at -2 17:11:42 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 17:11:51 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:59 I haven't even run into the stuff that's particularly dangerous yet 17:12:11 Bloaxzorra: Still looks like a mass of tentacles instead of a brain. 17:12:19 ac is really very good 17:12:21 Bleh, Bloaxzorro. 17:12:22 although I guess stone giants and yaktaur captains and orc knights picking up crossbvows actually are all pretty ridiculous 17:12:29 like "why isn't my crossbow this good" 17:12:39 ac is good but HP is better 17:13:00 SwissStopwatch: try random monsters at that depth tossing stones without a launcher 17:13:09 perhaps light armour might paradoxically be good for gr 17:13:13 so monsters cheat huh 17:13:18 because you could get better EV while still having decent AC 17:13:25 who knew! 17:13:25 monsters cheat a lot with any ranged option 17:13:25 SamB: In this regard, outrageously 17:13:25 despite the apt differences 17:13:31 well, gargs have bad dex and bad dodging apt 17:13:42 It's kind of like hill-orc level dodging 17:13:42 (Isn't that like one of the Rules of the Internet or something?) 17:14:17 -!- orionstein is now known as orionstein_away 17:14:33 Anyway this character wasn't overly strong before doing that floor but it probably would've been in less danger pre-changes 17:14:40 this doesn't say much about the overall balance though 17:14:51 No 17:15:01 Also you looked somewhat unlucky with things chasing you with ranged attacks 17:15:07 yes 17:15:25 well when an orc band spawns on a floor that previously had yaktaurs and centaurs 17:15:26 Are 5000 lines of code in one file considered a less than great coding practice? 17:15:27 it's not unlucky 17:15:34 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2348-g42d4ca8 (34) 17:15:35 they're going to find the bows and they're going to pick them up 17:15:51 SwissStopwatch: that sounds unlucky to me 17:15:53 Ganrao: I think overall clarity and organization of what is where is more important than linecount specifically 17:16:00 orc bands are kind of common 17:16:01 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 17:16:16 seeing 3 different knights is maybe a little unlucky 17:16:49 but with the monster mixes at that depth things that normally don't have ranged attacks never have a problem getting them 17:17:02 unless they can't wield crossbows/bows 17:17:02 DracoOmega: Gargoyle: So rSleep+++ is just from ~being stony? 17:17:14 I, um... I have no idea. They have this? 17:17:30 grsk is really good so far 17:17:31 If anything, I would guess it's from being nonliving 17:17:32 DracoOmega: Depends, what's the name of the pure-hex monster sleep spell? 17:17:36 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 17:17:48 Well, there is sleep and there is ensorcelled hibernation. The latter doesn't work if you have rC+ 17:18:00 I didn't know that anything but MR affected sleep itself though 17:18:06 If it's just "sleep" then they get immunity. 17:18:15 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:18 Monsters don't notice they get immunity though. 17:18:19 why isn't it called cryogenesis 17:18:51 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: see player::can_sleep() 17:18:51 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:19:02 <|amethyst> nonliving, undead, and plants are immune 17:19:09 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 17:19:19 Oh, hmm 17:19:21 Did not realize this 17:19:29 In any case, it's fine 17:19:38 Statue form already has this perk, so it seems (and no one knew! :P) 17:20:33 it can be a callback to all the previous weird gargoyle resists 17:20:42 crawl: nobody knows the rules 17:20:44 Well, undead already did it too and I didn't know! 17:20:55 But that's most likely because the sole source of it in the game used to be Aizul 17:20:57 <|amethyst> _ms_waste_of_time could check can_sleep() rather than asleep() 17:21:08 well, and spen ghosts 17:21:11 <|amethyst> except the same code is used for most enchantments 17:21:42 SwissStopwatch: Which are probably even rarer than Aizul (and you might just have rC anyway) 17:21:44 <|amethyst> oh, but the foe->asleep() check is already special-cased, so... 17:21:57 getting stabbed by spen ghosts is cute 17:22:02 but also kind of rare I guess 17:22:10 |amethyst: Yeah, it sounds sensible that it should check whether you're outright ineligable 17:22:30 |amethyst: Especially since it doesn't seem that any of it depends on what you're wearing, and just things the monster could easily know 17:22:38 DracoOmega do you not think a file with 5k lines of code is disorganized? 17:22:47 Not inherantly 17:22:55 It might very well be, but I don't think that length means it has to be 17:23:09 i cant berserk? 17:23:10 Most "best practices" I've read suggest breaking things down before a single file gets that big 17:23:15 <|amethyst> tilepick.cc, for example, is probably fine 17:23:17 alefury: Wait, you can't? 17:23:31 i just tried drinking a potion of berserk, it says i cant 17:23:34 Hahahaha 17:23:39 <|amethyst> beam.cc and dungeon.cc are probably not :) 17:23:40 That's from me fixing it so you can't bleed 17:23:47 does this mean GrBe also can't berserk 17:23:49 Since somehow THAT is what it checks when you try to berserk 17:23:51 that would be good 17:23:59 -!- santiago has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:04 I guess you can't berserk in statue form now either? 17:24:05 DracoOmega: if it bleeds, we can send it berserk 17:24:06 |amethyst: "probably"? 17:24:08 (This is not at all intentional) 17:25:11 i,i You are cast into the Abyss! You cannot move! 17:25:15 so amethyst case in point here: I have no idea where in this 5k lines of code to start looking for the UI element I want to patch :) 17:25:43 despite being a new software engineer (employed!) I would consider this code difficult to maintain :) 17:25:49 Ganrao: try searching for related things 17:26:13 Ganrao: you sorta get used to it 17:26:24 git grep is your friend 17:26:31 <|amethyst> ctags is your friend 17:26:33 I can't imagine this file had 5k lines when Linley wrote it 17:26:51 Ganrao: Hey, I said it COULD be poorly-organized 17:26:55 well he wrote it like 10 years ago 17:26:56 Ganrao: Just that it wasn't NECESSARILY 17:27:00 :) 17:27:03 <|amethyst> Ganrao: no, it was probably combined with several other thing into a 10000-line fine 17:27:04 (I didn't even know what file you were talking about 17:27:06 i've written 5k line files before 17:27:06 <|amethyst> s/fine/file/ 17:27:09 hehehe 17:27:10 -!- santiago has joined ##crawl-dev 17:27:12 Since there are some ones that are long and also fairly coherant 17:27:24 <|amethyst> Ganrao: seriously, take a look at Linley's code and you'll never complain about dcss code again :) 17:27:28 Hahahaha 17:27:30 Very true 17:27:33 <|amethyst> well, you will, but with a sense of perspective 17:27:34 yeah I've heard it was bad ;) 17:27:40 well, i'm pretty sure 17:27:43 I'm not saying this is bad, just hard to decipher 17:27:56 i can find a 1500 line file on my machine 17:27:59 Well, some of it is just from Crawl being really, really big 17:28:04 mostly comments, of course 17:28:09 <|amethyst> Ganrao: IMO just splitting files up doesn't help, because then it's harder to guess where something is 17:28:12 So there's a huge interconnected web of things to decipher before you have any idea where anything occurs 17:28:28 yeah, this is probably why I have not tried to contribute sooner :) 17:28:35 I was daunted 17:29:00 however I really believe Crawl is one of, if not the single best game in the world 17:29:06 <|amethyst> tools really do help... I couldn't imagine trying to navigate crawl source without ctags and vimgrep, for example 17:29:14 I don't even know what those are 17:29:30 <|amethyst> intellisense or whatever it's called in Visual Studio is just as good 17:29:42 well I was looking at it in nano, so... XD 17:30:23 Yeah, having to figure out what you're looking for without searches sounds awful, even after months working on the same aspect of the codebase 17:30:28 I should use ctags but I actually just grep manually 17:30:40 it... works once you have the art down 17:30:45 <|amethyst> elliott: ctrl-] is so nice though :) 17:30:55 ok so if I was going to stick to Arch Linux virtual box dev on this 17:31:06 what do you suggest I do to help myself not lose all hope? 17:31:08 <|amethyst> Ganrao: I use vim, but emacs also has good tags support 17:31:09 I also use the arrow keys in vim and stay in insert mode for decades 17:31:13 so I'm kind of terrible 17:31:25 I should google vim 17:31:39 <|amethyst> Ganrao: it's... not the easiest editor to learn 17:31:48 just like an enhance vi? 17:31:49 <|amethyst> you almost certainly already have it (or another vi) 17:31:53 <|amethyst> yeah 17:32:05 Ganrao: Were you the guy earlier who said you had experience with Netbeans? 17:32:12 probably not 17:32:13 but I have 17:32:19 <|amethyst> netbeans or eclipse would work too 17:32:20 That's what I use for Crawl 17:32:49 well my Arch doesn't have a gui yet 17:32:51 I guess I should install X 17:32:56 or would it be Gnome? 17:32:59 <|amethyst> Ganrao: it's a VM right? 17:33:01 yes 17:33:06 I never managed to coax the build environment to agree with Crawl's makefile, but I find it fine as an editor and tool 17:33:23 <|amethyst> Ganrao: can't you share the filesystem, edit on your host OS, and compile in the VM? 17:33:28 probably 17:33:39 I guess I can google how to do that 17:34:43 * kilobyte boggles at the concept of allowing Windows outside a VM. 17:35:00 -!- santiago_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:35:23 -!- santiago has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:35:46 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:35:49 DracoOmega: so, are gargoyles going to stay being prevented from berserking? 17:35:50 unless you're heavily debugging, I quite fail to see why using msysgit shouldn't be enough 17:35:55 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2349-g39398e7: Don't forbid gargoyles (and statue form!) from berserking 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=39398e79a8c3 17:36:00 ah 17:36:02 Hehe 17:36:04 great, now i can play more 17:36:29 alefury: hah, CDO is !zerk for now 17:36:38 im offline 17:36:43 meh 17:36:45 :P 17:36:55 also probably going to die to edmund or something 17:36:56 ??uncool[4 17:36:57 uncool[4/7]: Local. 17:37:28 splat time then 17:38:20 hah, zerked him, easy :P 17:38:31 beh, the first kobold got me from 10 to 1 hp with a whip of electrocution. It did not proc. 17:38:52 Unlucky kobold 17:38:54 welcome to the early game! 17:39:01 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:39:05 Unless you were a newgargoyle or something? :P 17:39:24 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 17:39:35 -!- Grimalkin has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:39:57 10 maxhp, guess :) 17:40:10 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:40:13 <|amethyst> kilobyte: rElec 17:40:27 I don't know if even they start with that little or not. I guess it depends on the background. 17:41:59 <|amethyst> kilobyte: if I'm reading the code correctly, electrocution proccing versus an rElec defender produces no message but does produce noise? 17:42:02 -!- iris has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:42:11 <|amethyst> kilobyte: melee_attack.cc:3190 17:42:21 |amethyst: ... 17:42:49 that sounds odd? 17:42:53 (wrt secret resists) 17:43:08 Secret resists? 17:43:52 It's not like venom weapons give a message when you are hit by them and they don't poison you either 17:43:58 (The noise thing just sounds like an outright bug, though) 17:44:01 yeah 17:44:24 but it's not like nagas had no rPois this morning 17:44:52 meaning, it shouldn't proc at all when you have rElec? 17:45:16 SamB: meaning I did not know about it 17:45:33 Oh, okay 17:45:42 <|amethyst> it's not exactly secret though :) 17:45:43 Well, I mentioned it in the commits! :P 17:45:50 <|amethyst> I mean, sure, no one has added ti to the changelog 17:46:04 <|amethyst> anyway, I must be going for a bit 17:46:07 I am pretty sure there are far older changes not in the changelog 17:46:49 -!- iris has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:46:59 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:57 -!- retro is now known as Guest12711 17:48:35 are we even allowed to list changes to gargoyles in the changelog 17:49:09 Allowed? 17:49:37 I think it's illegal in most states 17:49:51 I mean since they haven't been released yet 17:50:24 There is a trunk changelog 17:50:28 With trunk things in it 17:50:35 I mean aren't they supposed to be changes relative to 0.12 17:50:46 ...yes, and? 17:51:12 There is something in it about gargoyles now, and it is possibly incorrect 17:51:17 hmm 17:51:35 Along with things about Forest and probably elsewhere 17:51:37 have there been any recent changes to demonic guardian? 17:51:54 Well, a couple 4s got changed a month or so ago 17:52:14 And it not working with Oka was a 0.13 thing too, I think? 17:52:23 But I don't know of anything other than that 17:52:39 ok. it just seemed like i got an awful lot of them for a fairly minor fight here 17:52:47 there is but one reliable changelog: "git log" 17:52:48 (Actually, I don't even know if guardian even produced any of those 4s) 17:53:08 -!- Guest12711 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:53:14 I forget what the mid-tier options are 17:53:19 possibly "git shortlog", but some of us (*whistle*, sorry) are working hard to make it useless 17:53:41 it's not really relevant to my situation anyway. i'm just getting 5s 17:54:08 but i was surprised to see 3 of them pop up to deal with an orc priest and his buddy =P 17:54:34 Sometimes the guardian's timinings can be a little surprising 17:54:42 Like giving you an executioner for a yak band 17:54:53 (Less likely these days) 17:55:02 heh 17:56:03 -!- Datul has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:56:51 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: welp cya] 17:57:01 -!- Grimalkin has joined ##crawl-dev 17:58:36 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 17:58:37 -!- blackcustard has quit [Changing host] 17:58:37 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 18:00:41 -!- psuedoquasi has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:02:53 possibly gr should not get 4 ac on D:1 18:03:03 other than that they seem fine to me so far 18:03:05 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:04:06 -!- mason--- has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:05:11 -!- Ruffell has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:06:26 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 18:07:30 -!- joosa has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:08:26 ok back, for now 18:08:51 -!- Infinite_Monkeys has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:55 so DracoOmega does Netbeans have good support for all the git operations? 18:09:00 or is that Linux command line for you? 18:09:12 I am using mysysgit for all git stuff 18:09:25 Netbeans has some support for a variety of git things, but it is not complete 18:09:39 are you in Windows? 18:09:41 (In particular, I don't think they support staging only SOME changes from a single file, which I do all the time) 18:09:42 Yes 18:09:44 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 18:10:19 so I just need the C/C++ download of NetBeans? 18:10:23 or is there Java hiding in here? 18:10:30 -!- Ruffell has joined ##crawl-dev 18:10:49 None that I have noticed 18:11:02 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:02 This is just the C++ version download, yes 18:11:21 is mysysgit a plugin for Netbeans or a Windows program? 18:11:38 there's one Java file I have considered committing (because we have a C++ translation of it) 18:11:51 Oops, that should be msysgit 18:11:55 Not mysysgit 18:12:02 It's an independent package 18:12:06 ok thanks 18:12:26 Unix-style command line and git environment. Pretty no-fuss to install and use 18:12:26 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 18:12:57 nice! 18:15:15 is there any advantage to checking out files with Windows style line endings? 18:15:36 I know first hand the disadvantage :P 18:15:50 dos2unix saved the day 18:16:05 well, notepad doesn't understand unix line endings 18:16:10 with a proper editor i dont think there are any advantages 18:16:13 but Notepad++ does? 18:16:17 that's the only one that comes to mind 18:16:18 of course 18:16:22 Ganrao: I THINK git takes care of some of this on its own? 18:16:32 I'm configuring Git right now 18:16:38 it is asking me how I want to set that up 18:16:41 -!- santiago_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:16:42 even wordpad understands them. Not sure if it preserves them or not though ... 18:16:47 I think I'll stick with as-is and commit as Unix 18:16:54 I don't even recall that setup 18:17:14 So if I am saving things with unix line endings, it's by conincidence 18:17:45 But probably it just preserves the line endings already used in the file 18:17:59 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:08 i didnt set anything up 18:20:10 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 18:20:32 I decided to go wild and install the full on NetBeans w/ all packages 18:22:45 -!- tenofswords has left ##crawl-dev 18:25:23 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:26:01 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212]] 18:26:33 -!- moxian has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:29:34 -!- inpho has quit [Quit: inpho] 18:29:53 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:41 -!- eeviac has joined ##crawl-dev 18:34:31 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 18:36:01 -!- scummos_ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:36:20 -!- Nivim has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:38:29 -!- santiago has joined ##crawl-dev 18:38:36 -!- mee is now known as Guest16699 18:40:10 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 18:41:41 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:51 -!- tesudzi has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:42:42 -!- Nivim has joined ##crawl-dev 18:43:26 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 18:43:37 well crap. I've lost access to DNS on my Arch vm 18:44:43 mumra: Were you the one that changed water placement for D? 18:46:11 -!- Flun has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:49:39 -!- myrmidette_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:51:15 ok so I can ping 127.0.0.1 which I think is my cable modem, from my Arch VM 18:51:22 Nivim: changed in what sense? 18:51:34 so that means it has access to my ethernet 18:52:09 127.0.0.1 is always loopback 18:54:09 ah 18:54:11 -!- bh_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:54:18 well I could ping 8.8.8.8 also and that is Google's DNS (well one of them) 18:54:23 -!- bh_ is now known as bh 18:54:32 !messages 18:54:33 No messages for bh. 18:54:35 !seen MarvinPA 18:54:36 I last saw MarvinPA at Wed Jul 10 23:20:19 2013 UTC (34m 16s ago) saying '!learn del gargoyle[2]' on ##crawl. 18:54:54 I added it to my resolv.conf file and now I have DNS lookup 18:54:59 MarvinPA: If your concerns re:clinging were addressed, would you be opposed to leaving it in? 18:55:16 bh I think DracoOmega solve the Clinging thing 18:55:25 He gave them Flight at clv15 18:55:33 clinging's already gone 18:55:39 also, all the clinging is gone everywhere now 18:55:47 leaving in/restoring, whatever 18:55:54 whats so good about clinging? 18:56:06 well it IS unique 18:56:09 what's bad about it? 18:56:12 it's something that monsters did 18:56:13 well i don't see it ever really being an interesting mechanic, since the premise is mostly "flight but limited and weird" 18:56:18 which is what levitation was too 18:56:40 also its fairly well hidden (an ability of a transmutation) 18:57:03 most people who werent around when it was introduced probably dont even know it exists 18:57:04 what about Gargs is a unique feature now that they don't have that or trample immunity? 18:57:13 free ac 18:57:19 Ogres get 1 free 18:57:26 4 is more than 1 18:57:27 time to read the commit logs... 18:57:28 imo 18:57:29 DD negate damage like having AC? 18:57:33 gargoyles get 4-20 depending on level, and have low hp 18:57:48 ogres get gscs which is like 90% gdr 18:58:21 you lost me on one of those acronyms, I can only assume the first one is giant spiked clubs 18:58:31 ??gdr 18:58:31 gdr[1/3]: If you're making equipment decisions based on this, please reconsider. 18:58:41 wow. I think Draco's changes might have made them a lot better 18:58:49 rTorment and rElec is really good 18:58:50 another terrible learnDB entry, at least for a first entry 18:59:09 Yes. 18:59:15 fr change Gr to Gg 18:59:17 pls 18:59:29 i dunno. i think it tells you all you need to know about gdr 18:59:34 yes it does 18:59:44 It's very annoying to have first entries that don't tell anything about what the hell it is. 19:00:03 eeviac: just so it can be good game? 19:00:06 well, ok. add "guaranteed damage reduction" to the front of it 19:00:33 'guaranteed damage reduction' is about as misleading as 'life protection' 19:00:43 more or less 19:00:49 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/grgyls.png 19:00:54 newgargoyles 19:01:28 !tell DracoOmega Seen in tiles chat: "Every single enemy in forest makes me want to kill myself" 19:01:29 Grunt: OK, I'll let dracoomega know. 19:01:43 when is forest going to take a pan rune 19:01:53 How positive of them 19:01:53 DracoOmega: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 19:01:56 Bloaxor: !? 19:02:06 bh: Tiny health and huge AC. 19:02:25 Though that last part isn't that much true because he has some very good AC gear. 19:02:25 tiny health hasn't been much of a problem so far 19:02:37 Bloaxor: the title though 19:02:37 its a problem 19:02:54 oh... nevermind 19:03:19 I like the new gr 19:03:24 I will play grsk right now 19:03:33 i started one earlier, its pretty fun 19:03:48 its just a bit weird that i have not felt any need to train charms so far 19:03:56 oh well! 19:06:49 DracoOmega: thanks for tinkering with Gargoyles. My only objection is the loss of Trample resistance 19:07:33 You are resistant to torment. 19:07:35 Your stone body is very resilient (AC +6). 19:07:36 You have very sharp teeth. 19:07:38 You have razor-sharp toenails. 19:07:39 You resist negative energy. 19:07:40 bh: Hey, I didn't do that one myself :P 19:07:41 You are resistant to electric shocks. 19:07:42 You have a slow metabolism. 19:07:44 You can survive without breathing. 19:07:46 You are immune to petrification. 19:07:47 hi 19:07:47 i have a hard time complaining 19:08:18 How do rTorm and rN interact, anyway? 19:08:20 Additively or multiplicatively? 19:08:22 I also dig the dragon form change, though people saying it was underpowered are crazy 19:08:29 Thyme: Well, it's the exact same as statue form 19:08:43 Thyme: (Which does mean that they stack, yes) 19:09:29 Dragon form isn't terrible. 19:09:32 But statue form is tons better. 19:09:38 ehhhh 19:09:40 DracoOmega: Does that mean that a source of rN++ for gargs reduces torment damage to 10%? 19:09:49 Thyme: No, it doesn't stack that way 19:09:50 no, it reduces to 40% 19:09:51 Or is it like 15-20%? 19:09:52 er 19:09:58 40% of 50% 19:10:23 i really don't think trample resistance adds anything except an unecessary extra line to the A screen 19:10:26 Oh well. 20% is still good. 19:10:46 Grunt: You know, I get this funny impression that a lot of players object to monsters that do things to them 19:10:47 Can gargoyles enter statue form? 19:10:58 Grunt: Or in some way delay their tabbing 19:11:10 -!- ontoclasm1 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:11:52 DracoOmega: Well, orb spiders are irritating for basically that reason 19:11:57 Though it WOULD be nice to not upset people 19:12:00 orb spider (06s) | Spd: 12 (spell: 200%) | HD: 5 | HP: 22-43 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 504(medium poison) | web sense, !sil | Res: 06magic(26) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 307 | Sp: destruction orb (8d7), cantrip | Sz: small | Int: insect. 19:12:00 %??orb spider 19:12:01 Thyme: Hey, I love orb spiders 19:12:06 Thyme: They're like my favorite enemy in Spider 19:12:15 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:12:18 theyre pretty cool imo 19:12:23 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:12:27 havent tried forest so far though 19:12:33 it probably sucks :P 19:12:33 And they can be needled to death fairly simply 19:12:45 Which makes them goddamn annoying and not especially dangerous 19:12:46 I think Forest is failing in its danger quotiant still, sadly 19:12:54 Hey, orb spiders are quite capable of killing you 19:13:07 If you don't actually try to handle them 19:13:08 i only heard "dont go into forest, ever" 19:13:20 while crypt is allegedly still okay 19:13:22 alefury: About which version? Though I am starting to wonder if that matters 19:13:32 an old one, i think 19:13:39 alefury: People also said not to go into newCrypt ever, too 19:13:46 alefury: I seem to be fighting perpetually losing battles 19:13:50 pcloud is my favored method for orb spiders 19:13:50 DracoOmega: All sorts of things can kill you if you wholly ignore them 19:14:16 DracoOmega what made you decide to start coding for Crawl? Just love the game? 19:14:17 Thyme: Well, those can kill you a lot quicker than most anything else in Spider, I would say 19:14:33 DE conjurors or however you spell it can smart regardless of how high-level you go in 19:14:59 Ganrao: I guess that had a fair bit to do with it, sure. And a desire to improve things that I felt could use some improvements (and then the rest is history >.>) 19:16:42 how long have you been coding for it? 19:18:33 Hmmm... well, the first monster of mine that got added to trunk was back in... was it october or something? 19:18:53 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:19:05 Though I wasn't nearly so active for a while at first 19:19:07 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 19:19:28 Yes, 26th of October 19:19:39 wolf spider (16s) | Spd: 15 | HD: 11 | HP: 39-70 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 2508(poison), 15 | web sense | Res: 06magic(29) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 567 | Sz: Medium | Int: insect. 19:19:39 %??wolf spider 19:19:43 Though I think a minor patch of mine to stop spamming you with warnings for walking into steam got added before that :P 19:20:01 redback (05s) | Spd: 15 | HD: 9 | HP: 19-34 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 1804(strong poison) | web sense | Res: 06magic(24) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 220 | Sz: tiny | Int: insect. 19:20:01 %??redback 19:20:28 DracoOmega: I'd think that wolf spiders and jumping spiders are more dangerous than orb spiders 19:20:47 Overall, probably 19:20:48 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212]] 19:20:58 The former because they're rather quicker and can't be blocked by wall maneuvering 19:21:07 The latter because they like to halve your EV(?) 19:21:11 ??web 19:21:12 I don't have a page labeled web in my learndb. 19:21:20 It is fine that orb spiders aren't that dangerous if you move properly, but I think they are relatively more dangerous if you do not 19:22:12 orb spider (06s) | Spd: 12 (spell: 200%) | HD: 5 | HP: 22-43 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 504(medium poison) | web sense, !sil | Res: 06magic(26) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 307 | Sp: destruction orb (8d7), cantrip | Sz: small | Int: insect. 19:22:12 %??orb spider 19:23:30 http://db.tt/bYEhyMwR 19:23:36 (just doing some tinkering) 19:23:37 The problem (I think) is that they're just annoying, regardless of how you position yourself 19:24:09 Or they're just not dangerous if you have decent ranged options 19:24:30 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:36 Grunt: Well, it is certainly better than a ? 19:25:19 Grunt: A BAR 19:25:25 ontoclasm1: o_O? 19:25:41 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:31:08 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 19:33:40 Is it too ... unbearable? 19:34:20 DracoOmega: is newGr on any of the servers yet? 19:35:01 Yes 19:35:11 I think at least 4 of them? 19:35:20 (There's a 5th now, I think?) 19:35:22 oh, great :) 19:35:32 really? cdo, cszo, cao, clan, ___? 19:35:50 I don't think clan is up to date 19:35:59 But rfl or whatever that one is called 19:36:02 it should be 19:36:12 Oh, maybe I just didn't notice 19:36:26 if gargoyles don't breathe, why can't they walk into deep water? 19:36:30 -!- Duralumin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:32 rhf 19:36:50 bh: Well, neither can ghouls 19:36:54 bh: Or vampires, etc. 19:36:54 bh: because erosion 19:36:59 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:42 -!- ontoclasm1 is now known as ontoclasm{Str 19:38:03 ??gargoyle 19:38:03 gargoyle[1/1]: A race in 0.13: Good with unarmed combat, stealth, and earth magic, and bad with air. They have rRot, rElec, halved torment damage (like statue form), shatter/LRD vulnerability, low hp, +4 AC, and gain 3/5ths AC per level and intrinsic flight at level 14, making them the tengu of AC and earth. 19:38:10 wow. that's a lot of AC 19:38:21 nice Draco, which monster was your first? 19:38:46 -!- ontoclasm{Str is now known as ontoclasm{Hunger 19:40:27 Ganrao: Wretched Stars 19:40:39 ??wretched stars 19:40:39 I don't have a page labeled wretched_stars in my learndb. 19:40:46 :o 19:40:49 ??wretched star 19:40:50 ?@wretched stars 19:40:50 wretched star[1/2]: 0.12+ abyss monster that gives off waves of three-to-four temporary bad mutations (which disappear in waves with xp and which can overlap with present mutations) and fires off mystic blasts. Blame DracoOmega. 19:41:04 Ganrao: By now I've made like 15 or more and revamped probably more than that additionally >.> 19:41:04 @?wretched star 19:41:05 unknown monster: "wretched star" 19:41:14 wretched star (06*) | Spd: 12 (act: 120%) | HD: 10 | HP: 70 | AC/EV: 10/10 | 11non-living, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 843 | Sp: mystic blast (3d15) | Sz: little | Int: normal. 19:41:14 %??wretched star 19:41:25 wow that is a pretty cool monster 19:41:33 is it the first to give temporary bad muts? 19:41:36 http://i.imgur.com/4R3no6B.png -- what's up with this bug? 19:41:59 bh: yeah, noticed that earlier 19:42:01 I noticed that today too 19:42:19 I didn't see it on mantis last I checked 19:42:50 Ganrao: Yes, it was 19:42:58 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 19:43:01 Ganrao: Well, still is 19:43:01 so you had to code that ability yourself? 19:43:03 Yes 19:43:09 very nice 19:43:20 Most of the monsters I've added involved a bunch of new code :P 19:43:49 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:43:56 bh: bugs? in my tiles? 19:44:18 it's not a bug, it's just a hungry spriggan 19:44:34 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:44:42 hungry spriggan (15i) | Spd: 16 | HD: 7 | HP: 14-28 | AC/EV: 1/20 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, see invisible | Res: 06magic(65) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 307 | Sz: little | Int: high. 19:44:42 %??spriggan name:hungry n_adj 19:44:43 <_< 19:44:55 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-2350-g4422b0a: A hopefully not-too-unbearable, possibly temporary ancient bear tile. 10(52 seconds ago, 4 files, 6+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4422b0a2ad99 19:46:43 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 19:46:43 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:37 has draining enemies changed at all 19:48:14 Not presently, no 19:48:53 hrm. maybe it's time to merge destruction in and actually get it tested 19:48:53 Reducing their HD actually is a bit closer to skill drain than player level xl loss ever was 19:48:55 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:49:05 -!- randomizr is now known as RZX 19:49:06 Since it affects spell power and accuracy and such 19:49:23 bh: how about just have DracoOmega redo now instead, to save time 19:49:23 -!- Blazinghand_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:49:43 st_: we could just have him rewrite the whole game 19:49:49 he should be done by next week 19:49:49 bh: Merging destruction would be good. 19:50:48 I have certain dubiousnesses about it, but I haven't actually tested it myself 19:51:01 it still looks like a weird solution to a problem that doesn't exist to me 19:51:12 That too 19:51:36 the item destruction? i kinda feel the same way 19:51:37 does the status actually lock you out of potions or scrolls 19:51:40 Like, I realize that item destruction bothers a lot of people, but that is not in and of ITSELF a good reason to necessarily change something if it is actually functioning well 19:51:46 'Well' 19:51:58 eeviac: I think it gives you a high chance of failing and losing the item 19:52:01 if we want some effect that prevents you from using items for a while we should add that somewhere 19:52:07 that's kinda brutal 19:52:23 DracoOmega: THe sticky flame hits you! d?enterdenterdenter 19:52:26 ??robe of the archmagi 19:52:26 robe of the archmagi[1/1]: Acts as one enhancer for all spells. In ancient times, divided incoming XP by 4. 19:52:29 but i don't really see what it has to do with item destruction as-is 19:52:36 bh: How high IS this chance, anyway? And does it scale with the amount of elemental damage taken or anything? 19:52:39 Except worse because you should prioritize some scrolls over others 19:52:51 sticky flame destruction is straight up stupid 19:52:54 I'll give you that 19:53:11 The white imp comes into view! d!enterdenterdenter 19:53:11 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:12 DracoOmega: 50%, it's duration is dependent on the origin of the destruction, in the style of old destruction 19:53:12 that's about the only time i've really gotten pissed over item destruction though 19:53:28 Et cetera. 19:53:36 bh: Duration, but not chance? So one yaktaur nicks you with a bolt of flame and no reliable blinking for several turns? 19:53:43 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 19:53:50 Thyme: Do you seriously drop your potions at the sight of a white imp? 19:54:00 DracoOmega: yep. Thyme suggested damage/max_hp, but I don't think that's right either 19:54:25 On the face of it, that sounds like a very considerable increase to the danger of a number of things 19:54:27 DracoOmega: If I see that one ice cave with the imps yes. 19:54:28 the thing is, i think the solution is worse than the problem 19:54:28 if that's the actual implementation then that seems like a really bad way of doing it even if it were a good idea in the first place 19:54:29 right 19:54:36 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:45 Like, there are lots of things that hit you with unavoidable fire 19:54:57 walk into a tele trap, drop into a monster pack, get hit with fireball 19:54:58 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 19:55:00 no more teleport 19:55:06 And suddenly making an item that is supposed to be a reliable escape into a very unrelable one whenever they are involved is a bit scary 19:55:16 i'd rather get a few blink scrolls unavoidably torched than not be able to use them almost all of the time 19:55:57 eeviac: right, which is why it's a chance 19:56:04 Diddle some numbers until the chance is right, I guess. 19:56:06 If you really want to teleport, it'll eventually work 19:56:15 that's... not how emergency situations work 19:56:15 50%, 10%, whatever. 19:56:22 bh: Well, a 50% chance of blinking failing is very super bad 19:56:43 Alternately remove item destruction! 19:56:45 Like, I don't mean that this is automatically bad design for any effect. I mean in terms of danger the player is put into because of it 19:56:45 Huzzah! 19:56:56 If your scroll of blink burns up, it has 100% failure chance. 19:57:27 -!- Nakat0my has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:30 do you really not see the difference between being able to use an item and there being a chance for it to fail and waste a turn 19:57:43 it's... a pretty big deal 19:58:18 starting to think Arch was a bad move. I can't see my DVD drive in the VM and that is where I need to go to install the VM guest tools so that I can share folders from my host 19:58:35 my fstab doesn't list it either 19:58:51 you would need to attach it inside the vm 19:58:57 bh: That is true, but the odds of it burning up from any given fire attack is actually very low currently 19:59:06 bh: Certainly much lower than the odds in a scenario like this 19:59:09 and fstab probably wouldn't list it, usually it's handled by hotplugging these days 19:59:20 bh: Where what matters more is whether it works NOW, as opposed to how many scrolls surplus you have 19:59:45 -!- myrmidette has joined ##crawl-dev 19:59:56 the virtual drive is attached to Arch, according to Virtual Box 20:00:11 is dragon form supposed to be a pure transmutation for gargoyles? 20:00:13 with an IDE controller 20:00:20 either we should keep current destruction or we should have non at all 20:00:23 myrmidette: it's pure tmut for everyone 20:00:26 bh: Also that blinking burning up doesn't also burn up your fear and fog and whatever else. So you may not be able to blink, but you KNOW you can't, and can instead try something else 20:00:27 <|amethyst> myrmidette: yes, it is for everyone now 20:00:40 that's extremely weird 20:00:43 DracoOmega: all reasonable points 20:00:58 * geekosaur not familiar enough with arch but would expect something like sudo mount -o ro /dev/cdrom0 /mnt 20:01:02 There are a couple things about current item destruction that I agree are fairly inideal 20:01:14 <|amethyst> myrmidette: it was a terrible spell when it was two-school... it's still not that great but might see a little more use 20:01:26 the /dev/cdrom location exists but it is not a folder I can go into 20:01:29 Like, it's true that it encourages stashing and then going to retrieve things when you run slightly low, since you're never going to need, say, 6 blinking scrolls in any one battle 20:01:33 -!- Flun has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:01:34 can we have spider and ice form single-school too then? 20:01:36 What's the benefit of keeping current destruction, anyway? 20:01:39 <|amethyst> Ganrao: mount /dev/cdrom /mnt 20:01:58 And also it affects strategic scrolls, like enchant weapon or whatnot, when you really just shouldn't be carrying them 20:02:24 And, more arguably, item destruction from sticky flame is a bit high (and might also encourage you to spend turns dropping things while you are burning) 20:02:24 -!- eeviac has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212]] 20:02:30 st_: I was aiming for a middle ground. Even considering Marvin's objections I think my change is an improvement over the existing destruction. Outright removal of destruction is worth considering 20:02:41 thanks 20:03:18 bh: I don't actually think this is a middle-ground at all. I feel this is something nearly completely different 20:03:20 the branch isn't a middle ground, it's outright removal + some new weird mechanic 20:05:45 i'd call moving strategic items to a non-destructible item type a middle ground 20:05:56 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 20:06:03 Yes, that's more a middle-ground, sure 20:06:19 I am not sure whether or not that is the best idea, but at least I feel it could be rightly called such a thing :P 20:06:20 mumra: yeah, talismans or something 20:06:28 well fuck me 20:06:29 -!- myrmidette has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:06:55 is anyone unhappy with current item balance? 20:07:12 destruction is much maligned 20:07:15 I feel like that's a somewhat complicated question 20:07:35 But... probably things mostly seem okay? 20:07:46 VirtualBox has pre-sets for Arch when you are installing the OS, but not for the guest additions that let you access your host drives 20:08:05 Possibly there is too much curing by later on, but running out of it can also be super bad, so I am not sure 20:08:09 st_: Balance with which items? 20:08:30 -!- Aponym has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:08:37 i trust the real devs' judgement, but i know i don't really get why having item destruction is better than not having it, and i imagine many players have the same feeling 20:09:04 it reduces how many items you have... but in a really strange and random way 20:09:32 do you mean only from fire and frost sources? or from all sources, like acid degradation? 20:09:56 Thyme: items in the context of item destruction 20:10:02 <|amethyst> Ganrao: there seems to be some info here https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/VirtualBox 20:10:11 thanks |amethyst 20:10:21 It feels pretty great when you find a Cloak of Preservation 20:10:26 i wouldn't miss item destruction if it were gone, but i really don't have major issues with it as-is 20:10:27 ontoclasm{Hunger: Where did halving it come into this? 20:10:38 ontoclasm{Hunger: Oh, oops >.< 20:10:52 do randart cloaks exist? I don't remember 20:10:52 ontoclasm{Hunger: i think it's a fun mechanic 20:10:53 heh 20:10:55 or unrandart 20:11:01 yes 20:11:15 ProzacElf: I think you might notice the impact more than you expect 20:11:21 ProzacElf: In terms of the surplus of consumables you would accrue 20:11:22 ontoclasm{Hunger: i think it's confounding in a good way, rather than a major source of frustration i a bad way 20:11:23 -!- Grimalkin has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:11:23 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:11:26 oh ok, well then I guess losing Preservation as a badass cloak is not a huge deal 20:11:42 mumra: but why? i mean, most item destruction comes from stuff you can't do anything about, so i personally just ignore it 20:11:45 And rebalancing consumable generation for no item destruction would be quite involved, actually 20:11:58 Since we really don't want to cut earlygame stuff much at all 20:12:01 I almost never lose consumables to destruction effects 20:12:20 most games that I survive past Lair I end up dumping stacks of consumables in Lair 20:12:28 because of the weight 20:12:28 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 20:13:11 -!- Grimalkin has joined ##crawl-dev 20:13:33 Item destruction has the consequence of intense annoyance and usually not much else. 20:13:46 Unless you lose something important because hahaha. 20:13:48 ontoclasm{Hunger: well, crawl isn't supposed to be like chess; sometimes the game should screw you over in random but still escapable ways 20:14:05 I mean the worst thing destruction could do is kill a potion of Cure Mutation or Haste 20:14:11 and I'd be pissed 20:14:13 The deep elf knight casts a spell at you. 20:14:13 _The puff of flame hits you! You resist. Your scroll of blinking catches fire! 20:14:20 that puff probably did 1 damage or so 20:14:24 now that annoys me 20:14:28 Ganrao: blinking. 20:14:30 when you resist and something gets torched =P 20:14:37 annoying, but you find more blinking scrolls than Cure Mut 20:14:42 that's why 20:14:48 you don't carry cure mutation around 20:14:49 Ganrao: why would you ever carry cmut 20:14:52 I don't :) 20:15:05 well that is a lie, I did in my last splat 20:15:08 3 of them! 20:15:15 Also unlike cure mutation potions. 20:15:21 I'm not sure which zones are free of Oozes these days 20:15:22 Blink scrolls can and will save your ass. 20:15:23 -!- nickajeglin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:15:29 Bloaxzorro: Well, your example also indicates a monster doing something to damage you as opposed to nothing, so that doesn't sound inherantly bad 20:15:29 heh...i did once get killed from getting the curing i was carrying around frozen and not realizing it 20:15:35 then a bunch of golden eyes super confused me 20:15:37 Bloaxzorro: Which is what it would have done if there was no item damage 20:15:42 so i could get hammered on by an ogre pack 20:16:01 Except the most substantial damage it did was to annoy me. 20:16:02 The only reason that destruction as is is in seems to be to fuck you over on occasion in a manner like bh's destruction 20:16:06 Except worse. 20:16:14 And more annoying to circumvent. 20:16:29 Like, probably if I made a roguelike from the ground up, I would not have item damage in it, but removing it from Crawl, balance-wise, is not as trivial as just disabling it 20:16:29 destruction doesn't seem like a big enough deal to warrant a lot of time, I'm in the remove it or ignore camp 20:16:34 well, no, bh's version is going to straight-up kill lots and lots of dudes 20:16:46 ontoclasm{Hunger: Indeed 20:16:56 -!- Ramc has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:16:56 Not heal wounds against ice beasts! :P 20:16:56 you have a 12.5% chance to burn three scrolls in a row 20:16:58 No* 20:17:05 there are more interesting things Crawl could improve, like High Elves being Humans w/ dif apts 20:17:07 ontoclasm{Hunger: Worse on occasion, rather, not worse in the absolute 20:17:16 -!- Ramc has joined ##crawl-dev 20:17:22 Since you'd have exactly 0% chance of using the missing scroll in those occasions 20:17:23 ontoclasm: i think you mean 100% because this is crawl and you're in danger 20:17:30 Thyme: I am fairly confident this would result in bad situations happening CONSIDERABLY more often 20:17:55 yeah, if i get three blink scrolls burnt, i will either go get more or know that i can't blink 20:17:59 i would far rather have that potion completely gone than run a 1/8 chance of wasting 3 turns while i get pounded 20:18:04 Yeah, isn't the effect that e.g you can't quaff *anything* while -quaff? 20:18:14 if i'm carrying 3 blink scrolls and then suddenly they all burn exactly when i need them? 20:18:40 <|amethyst> gammafunk: you can but there's a 50% chance it's wasted 20:18:42 gammafunk: no, you have a chance to fail and waste a turn in the branch 20:18:52 oh, ok 20:18:52 <|amethyst> it's like blurry vision 4 20:18:56 heh 20:18:59 haha, blurry vision 4 20:19:02 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:03 which is probably worse because it's unclear and extra complication for no real reason 20:19:14 you accidentally ignite the scroll instead of reading it 20:19:33 Blurry Vision 4: This Time it's All Blurred 20:19:37 -!- eeviac has joined ##crawl-dev 20:19:42 Coming in theatres this Christmas 20:20:01 Blurry Vision 4's use of shakey-cam made be nauseous honestly. 20:20:19 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 20:20:21 I've read several times in the past about the benefits of making changes and twiddling the numbers afterwards 20:20:43 is this sewer layout supposed to be unreachable without flight? 20:20:46 I think Oka piety was the last time I remember it? 20:20:52 luckily in this case we can see that the changes themselves are a bad idea in the first place, so we can save the time fiddling with numbers 20:21:32 bh: Some have parts that you cannot reach without it, though they can't strand you either 20:21:39 bh: And some helpfully supply potions of flight, too 20:21:53 i've found that most of them do 20:21:55 DracoOmega: that's slightly meh for an early vault 20:22:07 Meh in what way? 20:22:13 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:22:29 The player is unlikely to have flight and is unable to return 20:22:56 Well, I just said that they helpfully supply you with potions (I can't say for sure that ALL of them do, but at least a couple I can think of) 20:23:16 doen't it have a portal out on the other side? 20:23:19 Yeah, I can't recal one that that either didn't have potions of flight waiting, or that didn't give you some beforehand 20:23:22 sewer_fruit_machine 20:23:53 potion of flight w:50-- guess I just got unlucky 20:23:57 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:24:53 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:25:05 I did playtest bh's current implementation, and it seems the status effects are about never relevant. Fire and cold attacks are pretty rare, and the effects last just a few turns. 20:25:47 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 20:26:09 Fire and cold attacks are rare since when? 20:26:25 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:26:30 Since yaktaurs stopped being one of the most common late D enemies? 20:26:34 -!- Yllodra has quit [] 20:26:41 it has an added bonus of making spells with self damage (inner flame, refrigeration) lose their downsides if you have enough resists to avoid hp damage 20:27:01 Reavers have some elemental spells though 20:27:05 At least freezing cloud 20:27:07 DracoOmega: how many scrolls do you lose in a typical game? 20:27:07 (those dicks) 20:27:11 5? 20:27:17 I usually lose more. 20:27:35 kilobyte: I would expect vastly more, to be honest 20:27:40 Should I use X or Gnome or something else for a window manager? 20:27:43 Probably closer to 15-20 20:27:47 I have often thought it would be nice if the game tracked this, though 20:27:58 Items lost might be a good thing to track in the morgue. 20:27:58 kilobyte: add it to scores 20:28:03 Yeah, that would be great for post-death rants 20:28:06 and then we can get stats 20:28:42 bh: do you know what was the old chance of destruction? 20:28:53 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:29:07 kilobyte: I don't recall. Maybe 2-5% per item? 20:29:16 (Speaking of Yaktaurs, I wanted to ask after opinions on the translocation-using-yaktaur-unique suggestion I put up on the wiki/forum) 20:29:29 All it takes is a few unlucky rounds with a fireballer and you can lose some good stuff :| 20:29:41 Fire crabs (shudder) 20:30:20 I wouldn't even be surprised if it was more than 15-20, but it's really hard to estimate due to how diffuse it is 20:30:39 Yeah, 15-20 scrolls seems reasonable 20:30:43 And then there's also potions 20:30:45 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:30:52 Fire crabs :( 20:31:04 that'd be less, maybe only 5-10 most games? 20:31:05 kilobyte: it can be a hell of a lot in zot if you don't wear cons 20:31:19 Or get tagged by a surprise mottled 20:31:20 i've basically ended up with no consumables left 20:31:21 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:31:22 Well, a SINGLE fire crab can easily eat 5 scrolls without conversation 20:31:25 Yeah, clearing zot in general is a great way to lose consumables 20:31:36 I also never talk to fire crabs 20:31:44 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:44 Hahahaha 20:31:49 Oops 20:31:50 I'd store my magic mapping outside the door to zot 20:32:06 even if I have cons 20:32:06 mottled are harsh 20:32:24 fr: mottled fire crabs 20:32:25 IMO item destruction is OK as is outside of a few extremes like sticky flame and fire crabs 20:32:38 they shoot sticky ring of flames 20:33:01 yeah the thing is, by zot you should have all kinds of ways to escape from trouble, otherwise what are you doing in zot 20:33:10 so it's not actually a thing that needs fixing 20:33:58 item destruction is just a reminder "why didn't you use these consumables already you fool" 20:34:11 That too 20:34:11 getting multiple potions shattered by a single frost puff bugs me but I keep playing so it can't be that bad 20:34:18 can someone tell me if I should pick mesa-libgl, nvidia-304xx-utils, or nvidia-libgl? I have an nvidia 770 card 20:34:32 I don't know what these things are :P 20:34:53 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:16 I have no strong feelings on consumables. 20:35:17 One thing that I do think could potentially be tweaked regarding item destruction is somewhat reducing the chance of it happening if your AC fully absorbs damage, since currently low EV builds suffer substancially more than EV ones, and I am not sure this is great? 20:35:22 Ganrao: you probably want the last of those three. What are you trying to do insofar as it relates to crawl? 20:35:25 eeviac: dying is also quite bothersome, but the game is also no fun in wizmode :P 20:35:50 yeah, I think item destruction results in interesting short-term and long-term consequences, even if it can be annoying 20:35:54 dying destroys all of my consumables 20:35:57 I'm trying to install GNOME because I would like to try using Eclipse in my Arch VM to help code Crawl 20:36:10 eeviac: What, you think the monsters don't loot your corpse afterward? :P 20:36:28 Ganrao: oh. I just use vim :) eclipse for C++ is meh 20:36:31 looks like the per-item chance is: 5% for explosions, 3% for penetrating beams, 2% for others, 7% for clouds, 5% refrig, sticky 12% per 10 aut 20:36:39 does NetBeans exist for Linux? 20:36:48 kilobyte: sticky is that bad? ouch 20:37:31 if I get stickied and there's a scroll I *really* don't want to lose, I spend a couple turns dropping some if I can do so safely 20:37:35 12% per 10 aut? 20:37:40 what does that mean? 20:37:42 Incidentally, one 'solution' to people wanting to stop what they're doing when napalmed and just drop scrolls is to actually make that not save them (and possibly reduce the severity of its destruction at the same time) 20:37:44 gamma: Same 20:37:46 -!- Zermako has quit [] 20:37:56 Ramc: Per scroll there's 12% chance per standard turn it'll burn. 20:38:03 oh 20:38:04 DracoOmega: stop drop and roll? 20:38:05 aut times 20:38:05 fr reduce that number maybe?? 20:38:08 not aut weights 20:38:32 because i think maybe most of the complaints about item destruction are really just about sticky flame 20:38:33 bh: Well, like a chance of things you drop burning up as well, since you're taking them out of your pack and exposing them to the flame 20:38:41 yuck 20:39:08 ontoclasm{Hunger: I think explosions and flame clouds also generate a fair number of complaints, to be fair 20:39:11 I did say it could come with a severity reduction :P 20:39:15 doesn't resistances reduce the chance? 20:39:25 Those are both more common than sticky overall, even if they're less dangerous 20:39:28 well this is odd. pacman -S gnome is getting me 404 Not Found errors on every mirror it knows 20:39:42 But it is fair that stopping to drop scrolls can be a touch tedious 20:39:42 DracoOmega: no, you're guaranteed to drop the first item safely 20:39:50 kilobyte: I know that is true 20:39:59 <|amethyst> Ganrao: probably #archlinux can help more than we can 20:40:03 kilobyte: I was saying if we wanted to discourage the behavior which is widely considered tedious 20:40:04 good idea 20:40:04 <|amethyst> or whatever the virtualbox channel is 20:40:18 DracoOmega: good point 20:40:22 kilobyte: By essentially making it no better than not dropping them 20:40:40 kilobyte: And then we can just make it burn less otherwise, maybe 20:40:56 as for bh's branch, it could work if the durations were made more meaningful 20:41:07 DracoOmega: People still might quiver and throw some scrolls, but I guess there's only so much discouraging that can be done 20:41:23 Plus the idea of people throwing scrolls away is amusing 20:41:27 gammafunk: Well, you can easily make doing that have the same effect as dropping them :P 20:41:36 because the chance you'll absolutely need that scroll within that few turns is pretty low 20:41:55 I have once been hosed by doing this 20:41:59 <|amethyst> kilobyte: "that scroll"? 20:42:11 I dropped my scrolls 20:42:12 and 20:42:14 foolishly 20:42:16 kilobyte: It's true that MOST times it won't matter, but it'll still cause failed emergency escapes a lot more than presently. You only need it to go wrong ONCE, after all... 20:42:18 advanced on the mottled dragon 20:42:19 you mean that stack of acquirement you were hanging onto 20:42:23 it was an open layout 20:42:25 and from each flank 20:42:25 |amethyst: teleport/blink usually 20:42:29 centaur warriors/pack 20:42:41 Did not make it back to the stairs. 20:42:53 DracoOmega: So I can't angrily throw those immolation scrolls into deep water after IDing them turned all my allies hostile? 20:42:55 That is what I get. 20:42:57 Ramc: Well, I think it is okay to drop stuff FIRST, if you maybe run into a sleeping mottle dragon, sure 20:43:09 gammafunk: Well, sure 20:43:18 gammafunk: But maybe if you are sticky flamed, some will burn up in the process 20:43:19 I went toward the black. My fault. 20:43:23 haha 20:43:46 fr: scrolls of immolation sticky flame the player 20:44:03 How about they sticky flame OTHER things, then maybe they'd have a purpose? :P 20:44:05 (Idea: have them give random fire miscasts.) 20:44:06 oh yes, that would be a huge improvement 20:44:12 scrolls of immolation burn all your other scrolls 20:44:15 heh 20:44:16 gammafunk: for some weird reason, immolation doesn't burn scrolls 20:44:17 Ha. 20:44:27 Have immolation sticky-flame everything in the radius 20:44:29 hilarious 20:44:37 kilobyte: Isn't it to prevent tedious, optimal things? 20:44:42 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 20:44:43 kilobyte: Yeah, I've always found that odd that it's never burned my scrolls 20:44:55 Think it is to stop scumming 20:45:23 otherwise you'd drop all scrolls 20:45:27 and get away from then 20:45:33 then tediously read them one by one 20:46:07 Ramc: I know why; it just causes weird situations in cases other than safe id 20:47:24 Yeah. 20:47:31 Oh well. 20:47:51 I'd always thought the role of immolation was like degen/poison/strong poison; just to make the id game somewhat dangerous 20:48:25 Or perhaps to just discourage read-id during combat a bit 20:48:33 It never seems to do much damage to me 20:48:35 it's a potentially useful scroll 20:48:39 ??immolation 20:48:39 immolation[1/4]: Scroll which creates a 3d10 fireball centered on you and extending two spaces. Not generated shallower than D:5. Does not destroy scrolls. 20:48:49 -!- reaver has joined ##crawl-dev 20:48:49 It's good for bees 20:48:51 Well just luck of the dice I guess. 20:48:55 -!- Quashie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:49:02 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:49:15 immolation is a good way to make Beogh mad 20:49:25 And Fedhas 20:49:25 ug, and yred 20:49:44 holy word works for yred too =P 20:49:47 and to ruin your speedrun when you're surrounded by ice beasts 20:49:59 friendly, summoned ice beasts I should say 20:50:15 gammafunk: you sound bitter 20:50:23 gammafunk: you can't do that anymore, mumra broke summoning ;) 20:50:46 So. Guys. Is the yaktaur unique that blinks away the player and shoots them with (portal projectiled?) dispersal bolts a terrible idea? 20:50:51 bh: It's 0.12 for HEIE speedruns from now on, but I'm glad the dev team is fixing summons 20:50:55 see it was secretly a buff 20:50:56 (along with yaktaur posse for more shooting) 20:51:01 need to nerf something more to balance out 20:51:07 Ramc: that's really mean 20:51:14 and Nessos. 20:51:33 Nessos blinks around himself and fires poison/fire in the early-mid 20:51:58 Yaktaur Captain unique blinks the player away and tries to blink the player with dispersal ammo 20:52:04 (also posse) 20:52:42 (If you want to see the full proposal on the forum, here is the link to my post- https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8551 ) 20:52:51 It also has a wiki link in there, where I put pretty much the same thing 20:53:18 With the XP changes, will speedruns (very high scoring runs due to low turncount) be much harder in 0.13? 20:53:28 First version I wanted Disjunction, but the feeling seems to be that having Disjunction on a mob is probably too mean 20:53:52 It seems like you'll need to kill a lot more enemies; I wonder if 4tharra has tried 0.13 recently 20:53:52 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:06 (idea: Dispersal) 20:54:45 Also it means at least ONE pack of yaktaurs will be interesting 20:54:45 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 20:55:35 Yaktaurs are plenty dangerous as-is 20:56:09 I've had the bad luck of finding Yaktaur captains out of depth a few times 20:56:10 I don't mind the idea of portal projectile on a unique archer character 20:56:18 I am less sold on the idea of dispersal 20:56:30 As the ammo-brand? 20:56:40 No, the spell 20:56:45 Ah. Yeah. 20:56:50 I missed the dispersal bolts thing 20:56:51 Disjunction you mean, right? 20:57:02 Wait, disjunction is even worse here 20:57:10 And dispersal doesn't actually occur on bolts 20:57:10 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:14 I think as the thread goes on Disjunction is decided to be a poor idea. 20:57:38 Yes. It would be a unique case if it is even possible without breaking stuff. 20:57:49 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 20:58:03 Oh, it is quite possible without breaking anything code-wise 20:58:14 Nessos gets poison-flame arrows. Let the yaktaur have some dispersal bolts. 20:58:14 -!- eeviac has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212]] 20:58:18 I am pretty sure you can spawn them using an itemdef right now, if you wanted 20:58:23 You can. 20:58:31 Actually, Nessos has normal poison arrows and a normal flame bow 20:58:39 s/bow/longbow/ 20:58:40 He's just special in that they combine when he uses them 20:58:45 A longbow is a kind of bow! 20:58:48 That is what I mean. 20:58:53 (I am aware it is a longbow, sure) 20:58:59 Wasn't there a suggestion to make all ranged combat combine brands? 20:59:18 AM unique, raises inner flamed zombies around you, has portal projectile 20:59:21 Would be news to me 20:59:33 How would you combine flame and freeze 20:59:34 mumra: Okay, that sounds kind of scary. Though where are the zombies coming from? 20:59:46 DracoOmega: hmm, some wizard buried them i guess? 20:59:49 Can you living flame spectres? 20:59:56 if so, haunt? 20:59:58 DracoOmega: Corpse delivery 21:00:00 mumra: Oh, you meant a spell that wasn't just animate dead, except with inner flames, I guess? 21:00:15 mumra: It seemed sort of problematic for the unique to function if it actually needed corpses 21:00:27 Ramc: You can't inner flame summons, periods 21:00:29 period* 21:00:32 Smitey corpse delivery 21:00:40 But yeah. I guess the spell list for the yaktaur would be something like Blink-other-away, blink, portal projectile and teleport other in an emergency 21:00:58 The corpse lands on your head! Ouch! That really hurt! You die.... 21:00:58 Teleport other in an emergency slot sounds like a nuissance more than anything 21:01:03 is there a wiki discussion going on about making HE more interesting yet? 21:01:13 HE seems pretty good to me as-is, to be honest 21:01:26 Yeah, I don't understnad why HE needs fixing 21:01:29 Well, what tloc would be a good idea then? 21:01:32 AM beseeches Kiku for corpses. A titan corpse, stone giant corpse, and three dragon corpses surround you. 21:01:33 Straightforward, distinct and functional apts, good natural stats 21:01:36 I didn't say they are bad or need "fixed" 21:01:37 Teleport self would cut them off from the pack anyway. 21:01:54 they're just not interesting, same reason so many iterations on Gargoyle 21:02:01 they're humans with different apts 21:02:04 blink-all-encircling would be probably a bad idea 21:02:12 DracoOmega: frankly i like monsters with teleport other in emergency slots 21:02:24 <|amethyst> Ganrao: the same is true for deep elves 21:02:25 ProzacElf: Do other examples of this actually exist? 21:02:27 Ganrao: They're slow-leveling, less HP, more MP, more MR, not just different apts 21:02:27 i can force them to teleport me away if i get in trouble a lot of the time =) 21:02:28 If you are fighting in an uncleared level, could be bad-bad 21:02:36 Jozef once upon a time? 21:02:37 not that i'm aware of. 21:02:39 <|amethyst> Ganrao: and most of the left column of races 21:02:47 I guess? 21:02:49 i'm just saying, sometimes you can use it to your advantage 21:02:50 seeing the discussion of tloc-ish stuff 21:02:50 ProzacElf: The way you worded it implied you liked the ones in the game now or something :P 21:02:50 Hill Orcs are Humans with Axes and Beogh. 21:03:02 i had an idea earlier that nivim mentioned had previously been discussed 21:03:10 What is that? 21:03:14 of a tloc spell that mirrored the translocations of whatever you targeted 21:03:18 gammafunk: Don't forget that they have higher stat growth than anyone but demigods! 21:03:30 How so? 21:03:31 DracoOmega: Yeah, forgot about the stat bonuses 21:03:31 ackack: that would seldom do anything 21:03:36 Yeah. 21:03:42 That bit is actually a fairly sigificant part of HE in my opinion 21:03:42 Mostly enemies just maybe blink. 21:03:46 Which people seem to overlook 21:03:58 bh: i could imagine some uses for it as a player, mostly i think a monster that comes with you on teleport could be interesting in moderation 21:04:02 ackack: I mentioned they mentioned a monster mechanic where creatures would teleport after you when you teleported. Teleport tracing and detecting. 21:04:05 I guess hellwings teleport other 21:04:06 the stats are a huge part of HE 21:04:10 though not really in an emergency 21:04:13 just all the damn time 21:04:15 because they are dicks 21:04:19 Yeah, it's 50% Dex/Int, right? 21:04:23 Yes 21:04:23 yeah 21:04:25 every 3rd level 21:04:31 <|amethyst> ackack: makes more sense as a monster flag or ability than a spell, really 21:04:39 Trace Teleport would be a motherfucker of a monster tloc 21:04:49 but so super cornercase. 21:04:53 well, the main reason i suggest it as a spell is that i can imagine player uses 21:04:57 bbl 21:05:10 -!- pelotron_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:05:11 but sure, having one monster that maintained relative position with you following a teleport would be interesting 21:05:24 ackack: I expect this behavior would almost never do anything 21:05:35 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:05:48 <|amethyst> are monsters restricted by no-rtele-into ? 21:05:53 ackack: Since you would need to be pressed in an emergency near it enough to teleport (itself somewhat uncommon) and also the situation would need to REMAIN an emergency just by that one monster's presence 21:05:55 i'm imagining it in the context of packs of monsters 21:06:39 Well, most monsters don't actually ever force the player to teleport, for instance. In fact, of the number of encounters in the game, it is a small minority that do 21:07:02 So the odds of those times involving that specific monster, and the monster following you ALSO being relevant on the other end is even smaller 21:07:30 Yeah. Too cornercase. 21:07:41 <|amethyst> monster that knows where you are, is always awake, and has a high chance of teleporting to you each turn 21:07:49 The Gr changes look nice, I'm more excited to play another one now 21:08:09 Anyhow, in and out now! Thanks for yak feedback. 21:08:40 <|amethyst> (or maybe isn't always awake, so you don't fight them all at the beginning of the level) 21:09:28 gammafunk: Good to hear :) 21:09:49 i started a gr, it has 20 ac on d:5 21:09:56 -!- yogaFLAME has joined ##crawl-dev 21:09:58 a good chunk of that is some lucky floor finds, but wow 21:11:52 Yes, it's quite likely the earlygame is too generous with AC currently 21:12:23 Low hp doesn't really kick in early on however. 21:12:45 gargoyle (159) | Spd: 10 | HD: 4 | HP: 13-31 | AC/EV: 18/6 | Dam: 10, 6, 6 | 10doors | Res: 06magic(32), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 13neg | XP: 142 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 21:12:45 %??Gargoyle 21:12:45 -!- jeffro has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:12:56 i see you haven't declawed monster gargoyles yet 21:15:05 I haven't really touched them at all, but will eventually 21:15:13 However, player gargoyles still have claws 21:15:15 On their feet 21:15:42 * Grunt notes that monster tengu have a claw attack; this is presumably analogous. 21:15:46 Yes 21:16:00 The message for talon aux proccing is still something like "You claw X" 21:16:10 Yes. 21:16:44 Bloaxzorro: Also, I think low hp kicks in decently noticably early, given that there are notable earlygame monsters that ignore AC altogether 21:17:15 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:17:17 This is not to say that the curve for AC growth shouldn't be changed ANYWAY, but certainly the -2 hp apt is relevant even early on 21:17:41 Bloaxzorro: what would that look like if they hadn't claws 21:18:00 DracoOmega: Something smites you! You die... 21:18:19 probably 14, 6 21:18:43 Well, they would still be kind of lame monsters at that rate. I WILL do something with them eventually, I promise ^^; 21:19:09 idea: gargoyle death knights 21:19:13 "finally the correct species is found" 21:19:30 -!- Grivan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:19:41 I had a bad item idea today -- dragon's teeth. They summon human's with pokey weapons 21:20:00 elliott: I would actually have suggested that 21:20:09 elliott: If Yred didn't hate them and forbid them to worship him 21:20:20 oh yeah there is that 21:20:21 We have the power to fix that. 21:20:30 well it's not broken 21:20:36 Well, Yred explicitly hates artificial beings and all 21:20:39 (what's up with most people being devoiced?) 21:20:49 Nickserv died earlier 21:21:05 I, uh, can't remember my password except for the login script, and didn't bother to leave and rejoin 21:21:23 Since it's not like voice MEANS anything for me here :P 21:21:40 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:50 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 21:22:28 Also, I would actually like a few more living enemies in Crypt, rather than less, overall 21:22:57 In terms of diluting anti-undead options a little (I realize death knights aren't scary enough on their own for this) 21:23:31 All that comes instantly to mind is some sort of tomb-robber 21:23:54 honestly just putting them on paladin glyph and calling them death knights still sounds like the best thing :P 21:23:57 I actually do have a few concepts kicking around for other things. But in this case I meant more that I'd just rather not make the death knight from something living into something that isn't 21:24:03 the real question is what to call unborns 21:24:09 maybe they can just be called unborns 21:24:15 elliott: But paladins are white @ and necromancers are already white @ and in Crypt 21:24:24 So that's kind of not great 21:24:28 hmm 21:24:34 there should be a thing to show what glyphs are taken by what 21:24:38 There is! 21:24:42 oh joy 21:24:45 http://s-z.org/neil/tmp/crawl-glyphs.html 21:24:50 It is amazing 21:24:52 Some sort of carrion-eating beast would fit. 21:25:11 (were-vultures clearly) 21:25:13 okay so brown @??? 21:25:16 (not a serious suggestion) 21:25:17 hail |amethyst! 21:25:36 elliott: Because that just screams death knight, right? (But yes, I actually didn't realize it was free until I saw that) 21:25:57 well I know when I see a white @ I think "wow that looks really necromancer-y" 21:25:57 brown seems under utilized 21:26:06 elliott: I know, I know =/ 21:26:17 you're so tiles-minded! 21:26:26 also blue @, to carry on the great DracoOmega tradition of making people think humanoid enemies are uniques 21:26:50 elliott: Really, I wish I didn't need to be concerned about glyphs, because they are annoyingly limiting 21:27:08 (I really do sort of wish the unique @ could be seperated from non-unique ones for purposes of space, but...) 21:27:11 (or green or cyan) 21:27:19 DracoOmega: it's part of the form! 21:27:27 like complaining crawl is set on a grid :P 21:27:50 But at one point in time I used to not even need to KNOW why glyph things were! :P 21:27:57 s/why/what 21:28:04 well teh topic is destroying dwarf enemies 21:28:06 *the 21:28:11 I feel the same way about tile except instead of limiting it ruins my beautiful red sprints 21:28:11 why not put non-unique humanoids on q 21:28:22 <|amethyst> you may find this one easier to read: http://s-z.org/neil/tmp/crawl-glyphs-narrow.html 21:28:23 it's a pretty good glyph for it imo 21:28:37 and will be totally free of course 21:28:44 ??snaplasher 21:28:44 I don't have a page labeled snaplasher in my learndb. 21:28:48 ??snaplasher vine 21:28:48 I don't have a page labeled snaplasher_vine in my learndb. 21:28:50 |amethyst: That looks much harder to read to me, actually 21:28:51 snaplasher vine (09w) | Spd: 13 | HD: 16 | HP: 19-30 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Dam: 003(constrict), 21 | 03plant | Res: 06magic(64), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 0 | Sz: Large | Int: plant. 21:28:51 %??snaplasher vine 21:28:59 oh 21:29:01 it's even better 21:29:04 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: depends on how wide your screen is I guess :) 21:29:05 because jorgrun and wiglaf get a place 21:29:11 instead of becoming the only monsters on q 21:29:18 they just get lumped in as humanoids!! 21:29:26 though I guess you'd have to make player dwarves @ for that benefit to maek sense 21:29:37 can i change it so if you're undead and quaff bmut you get the message "You feel dead inside..." 21:29:50 Be my guest 21:29:52 btw I am serious 21:30:03 don't mutations on undead cause rot? 21:30:07 yes 21:30:14 quaffing bmut as undead rots you 21:30:20 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 21:30:21 ah :) 21:30:22 oh, that's so mean 21:30:22 but still says You feel fantastic! 21:30:24 elliott: I was wondering. I am not really sure. Honestly, I find it hard to guage what sort of impact/opposition glyph changes would have on people 21:30:34 that's cruel 21:30:38 elliott: But perhaps I also should not care what glyph gets what when it's not like my play is going to be impacted by it 21:30:53 I just use tiles 21:31:00 well, players complained about a bunch of Sigmunds in vaults :p 21:31:04 Ramc: So do I! 21:31:06 within species, do we have a consistent color progression from easy->hard? 21:31:13 I think of all the glyphs you could put non-unique humanoids on q is probably the best by quite a way 21:31:13 elliott: I only saw them do so jokingly 21:31:15 <|amethyst> ontoclasm{Hunger: one problem is that I don't know if there's a way to tell whether a vampire got a mutation or rot 21:31:20 Tiles? Didn't that get removed in trunk? 21:31:21 DracoOmega: well I complained about it non-jokingly! 21:31:21 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:31:29 I really dislike glyph clashes 21:31:31 elliott: You really can't tell, y'know 21:31:40 <|amethyst> ontoclasm{Hunger: since mutate returns true in both cases 21:31:45 elliott: So do I! But there were already lots of unique/non-unique glyph clashes 21:31:47 |amethyst: what determines which they get? 21:31:49 <|amethyst> ontoclasm{Hunger: could make mutate return a three-way enum 21:31:56 elliott: So I thought it was nothing new there 21:31:56 how much blood, i assume, but what's the cutoff? 21:32:05 well, I see those as problems to be fixed mainly 21:32:12 <|amethyst> ontoclasm{Hunger: it's a random chance depending on hunger level 21:32:18 <|amethyst> ontoclasm{Hunger: see _undead_rot 21:32:22 but it's relevant that the uniques they clash with (Sigmund, Terence) are very prominent/iconic 21:32:25 and appear early in the game 21:32:30 so everyone is very used to their appearance 21:32:42 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:32:44 |amethyst: maybe vamps could have a uniwue message that doesn't specify what happened 21:32:49 Well, that is true. But also they don't occur in remotely the same place, so there is less confusion 21:32:58 would anyone object to bMut not giving (+1 str, -1 dex) and other similarly meh mutations? 21:33:04 <|amethyst> ontoclasm{Hunger: I think it would be better to change mutate() to return a three-valued enum 21:33:23 can they get both maybe? 21:33:28 elliott: What I think I dislike more is, say, hellions sometimes looking like the balrugs they spawn alongside 21:33:30 like, one mutation and one point of rot? 21:33:35 bh: That would be nice. Nothing worse than a potion of dissapointing mutation 21:33:37 DracoOmega: yes, that is bad too 21:34:02 <|amethyst> ontoclasm{Hunger: yes (but beneficial mut is just one mutation) 21:34:06 oh 21:34:11 ok 21:34:12 Problems I was blissfully unaware in my sheltered tiles experience, at one time! 21:34:17 Since they look nothing alike 21:34:23 DracoOmega: I wanted to try a comprehensive rc reglyphing that had no overlapping glyphs (at least as far as possible, and only unique/non-unique clashes if anything) and that tried to make the standardised colouring of certain things (like priests) more uniform 21:34:27 but it is a lot of work 21:34:27 <|amethyst> ontoclasm{Hunger: it's determined on each call to mutate(), and potion of mutation calls that three times in a loop 21:34:43 -!- johnny0_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:34:54 elliott: I don't mind the actual effort involved, but I have a hard time thinking of letters that are suitable for a bunch of things, even if they were not already taken 21:34:56 though the basic principle pays off immediately for green mummy priests and lightmagenta great mummies, especially the latter is infinitely easier to tell apart from regular mummies 21:35:06 elliott: Then again, I suppose 'q' doesn't mean a damn thing, and it's only by association that we think 'dwarf' 21:35:22 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: well, q does look a little like a head with a long beard 21:35:31 <|amethyst> but p would work just as well :P 21:35:33 DracoOmega: yes, the main problem with q seems to be "it looks like a qwarf", but I think if you see a bunch of them every single game that will wear off quickly 21:35:33 bh: Why not remove those mutations instead? 21:35:36 -!- Adeon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:35:41 |amethyst: that is the best reasoning i've heard to date 21:35:47 DracoOmega: how much work do you think it would be to add temporary mutations that wear off over time? 21:35:49 about q that is 21:35:49 Emperor scorpions as unbolded, white s is a problem, I think; wolf spiders are bold s, at least 21:35:51 st_'s rc has "p" for "people" I think 21:35:55 or p for that matter 21:36:00 moving ghosts would be quite easy I suppose 21:36:04 <|amethyst> elliott: doesn't angband do that? at least z did 21:36:08 reaver: doesn't sound like a bad idea. Though it increases the variance of !mut 21:36:13 bh: none since temporary mutations are already in the game. 21:36:13 'p' for people is an angbandism yes 21:36:18 he may have gotten the inspiration from angband, yes 21:36:30 reaver: temporary mutations expire with xp. I want mutations that wear off with time 21:36:36 <|amethyst> z is still the only angband I've played 21:36:39 for !lot_of_good_mutations 21:36:42 I halfway made a full bandy.rc once 21:36:42 <|amethyst> I should try out sil 21:36:47 <|amethyst> and vanilla for that matter 21:36:49 bh: It would take some if you wanted to seperate which expire with time and which don't. Currently there is no way to differentiate any temp mutation from any other 21:36:53 -!- buppy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36:59 Living monsters in Crypt... some sort of bone-eating beast? Hm. 21:37:09 þ or ð glyphs? 21:37:11 vanilla? 21:37:22 rmsl very hungry swift nobones 21:37:22 How about @ cultists in Crypt? 21:37:23 <|amethyst> ProzacElf: angband 21:37:24 geekosaur: I'd love if we could use more characters by default, but I am not sure we actually can 21:37:26 oh 21:37:29 bh: That could be amusing, but the current buff potions are useful because they're very predictable 21:37:29 duh 21:37:43 i thought you meant a separate fork of it 21:37:45 I'm not sure !lot_of_mutations would be very useful 21:37:45 bh: There ARE various necromany-associated living monsters in Crypt. Just perhaps not so many that are higher tier threats 21:37:49 thinking that if any are likely to be available, it'd be those 21:37:49 Potion of Monstrosity 21:37:51 hm 21:37:53 player ghosts could go on W? 21:38:04 bh: I wasn't asking for ideas so much as commenting on that fact when the idea of making a living monster non-living came up, which feels a step in the wrong direction 21:38:05 gammafunk: if it gave you 8 good mutations it would be unpredictable, but typically useful 21:38:19 DracoOmega: totally agree 21:38:26 and hungry ghosts too presumably 21:38:32 elliott: Is this about making p people? 21:38:33 DracoOmega: The less saturated the game is with things that give no shits about negative/poison the better. 21:38:39 DracoOmega: yes, I am just thinking what you would have to do 21:38:39 is there any reason for p/W to be separate? they aren't exactly overcrowded 21:38:48 Ramc: and holy vulnerable 21:38:48 <|amethyst> I see no reason other than colours not to merge p and W 21:38:49 bh: Temporary mutations use to expire over time: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=3270b88c02bee8d357da5967ba57cc0ac9c3cc41 21:38:50 seems like you could just move all the ps to W 21:38:52 Ramc: Well in this case it's also so that there are scary things that dispel/holy wrath don't work on 21:38:56 but that might produce glyph clashes 21:39:02 Is ANYthing vuln-negative? 21:39:03 which is unfortunate given the point of the endeavour 21:39:11 elliott: there are many colors free 21:39:11 reaver: that commit does the opposite 21:39:12 elliott: I think there is close to enough room, if you change colors on things 21:39:16 well they arent overcrowded so you can shuffle things around 21:39:29 bh: Well, 8 is quite a lot. It would be a fun potion to use, I suppose 21:39:35 after seeing the chart i combined B, a, and k without overlaps 21:39:39 okay then my alternate proposal to qeople is people 21:39:51 What does q become, then? 21:39:53 plus wasps 21:39:57 q is for dqarf 21:39:58 the two dwarf uniques and dwarf players 21:40:08 That seems somewhat underutilized at that rate, but eh 21:40:12 I mean, if you make q people then you have to move dwarf players to @ for that to make sense 21:40:16 yes, it is 21:40:27 and "why are there so many ghosts!!" can be applied to "p"eople too 21:40:33 but both seem essentially viable to me 21:40:39 halfling (15@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 6-15 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 30 | Sz: small | Int: normal. 21:40:39 %??halfling 21:40:43 <|amethyst> I don't like splitting uniques and regular humans 21:40:55 also still keep unborn deep dwarves on q, but rename them 'backwards ghosts' 21:40:55 @ isn't even "human" 21:40:58 it's "humanoids" 21:40:58 elliott: In a sense, moving people to q seems like it would cause less confusion than moving them to p, since there are a lot more ps than qs in the game at the moment 21:41:06 <|amethyst> elliott: some humanoids anyway 21:41:09 st_+ 21:41:10 st_++ 21:41:27 DracoOmega: yes, the "q"s have more "brand recognition" than the "p"s though 21:41:33 in terms of what you think immediately when you see the glyph 21:41:34 Incidentally, I might just as soon make unborn a living monster if we're making them something else 21:41:34 at least IMO 21:41:42 Maybe 21:41:46 At least I would consider it 21:41:58 If we don't, they can just be a L of some kind 21:42:13 It is all about BRANDING 21:42:26 W could actually use something high end 21:42:34 elliott: Well, it's somewhat harder for ME to feel like I'm in a position to guage reaction on glyphwise matters 21:42:50 elliott: Since I don't play that way (though I do watch a lot, so it's not like I'm UNfamiliar) 21:42:59 st_: Well, eidolons are somewhat respectable now 21:43:09 Oh, is it true the mob Pan was removed? 21:43:09 st_: Though not HIGH tier 21:43:18 We could have Banshees perhaps on W 21:43:34 I don't know what the "popular opinion" would be on splitting uniques and non-uniques on @ really, but I think console should definitely be about maximal clarity 21:43:42 and recognition at a glance 21:43:45 <|amethyst> Ramc: Pan exists but does not generate 21:43:45 -!- us17 has quit [*.net *.split] 21:43:45 -!- Guest90495 has quit [*.net *.split] 21:43:45 -!- popx_ has quit [*.net *.split] 21:43:45 -!- ivan`` has quit [*.net *.split] 21:43:45 -!- KorpsDeKrieg has quit [*.net *.split] 21:43:45 -!- Adeon has quit [*.net *.split] 21:43:45 -!- djanatyn has quit [*.net *.split] 21:43:45 -!- riot has quit [*.net *.split] 21:43:45 -!- johnny0 has quit [*.net *.split] 21:43:50 -!- us17_ is now known as us17 21:43:50 -!- us17 has quit [Changing host] 21:43:53 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:44:05 Just a boring unique? 21:44:12 Debian builds of the trunk branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2350-g4422b0a 21:44:13 |amethyst: You're not a drug lord, you're a lawyer! 21:44:18 elliott: Yes, I do agree. But ideally we'd like to do this in a way that jarrs as few people in the process 21:44:18 st_: http://tentakel.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/wraithlord1.jpg 21:44:52 Ramc: Well, he had a confusing name, two of his spells slowed his own band, and the other one was given to the Enchantress 21:45:10 DracoOmega: an rc snippet to revert the changes can be included, just like there's a bunch of includes you can add to backport monster glyphs to the stone age 21:45:14 Ramc: So until some other fitting mechanical implementation was devised for a satyr unique, I felt it better to disable 21:45:16 that way luddites can just add one line :P 21:45:18 is it REALLY likely for people to think they see Sigmund in V? 21:45:25 elliott: Oh, is there? 21:45:28 DracoOmega: yes 21:45:33 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:45:41 DracoOmega: (your question proves that nobody reads init.txt comments :P) 21:45:44 SamB: you can see sigmund in v, hilariously 21:45:50 SamB: well it is about adding new monsters that would go on @ now 21:45:54 elliott: I most likely just did not read things related to console 21:45:58 we could fix that 21:45:59 as part of de-dwarfenisation 21:46:00 elliott: Since they were irrelevant to me 21:46:07 -!- maarek has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:18 (and certainly the addition of more monsters that just happen to be human is restricted now and has no really good reason to be) 21:46:31 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 21:46:37 -!- ivan`` has joined ##crawl-dev 21:46:55 why doesn't h stand for humanoid anyway 21:47:46 hogmanoids 21:47:52 It could probably make sense to merge a bunch of insectoid glyphs together, too (though I don't know what would be done with the old ones). Though that's not really about clashes, so I guess it matters much less. 21:48:15 humans on b 21:48:26 b for bro 21:48:27 -!- _wh1te is now known as wh1te 21:48:47 are we trying to get rid of bats 21:48:54 heh 21:48:57 yes thats what this is about 21:49:01 b for bro 21:49:03 i like it! 21:49:09 humanoids on %, move death cobs to Q 21:49:22 Haha 21:49:24 so all trogs summons go to b? 21:49:25 humanoids on... ( 21:49:38 yeah you're right, why aren't all corpses the same glyph as their monster?? 21:49:42 <|amethyst> Humanoids on &, move pan/hell lords to 0 21:50:09 everything can just be X 21:50:21 everything on # a la acidrobin 21:50:31 I am mostly game for whatever someone else thinks is reasonable 21:50:43 My chief concern is about the monsters themselves, and just having room for them :P 21:51:12 we could just change the species' of the uniques 21:51:45 Jessica the pan lord! 21:51:47 =P 21:51:52 <|amethyst> humans are a little overrepresented in the uniques, given their frequency in the dungeon otherwise 21:51:53 I am not sure that would actually help a lot, even if people were willing to do that to iconic things 21:51:58 <|amethyst> s/a little // 21:52:05 -!- reaver has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:52:43 <|amethyst> !lg * recent s=crace 21:52:45 632292 games for * (recent): 66551x Demonspawn, 55664x Minotaur, 43114x Deep Elf, 39169x Octopode, 36078x Hill Orc, 33224x High Elf, 31630x Draconian, 28490x Spriggan, 26276x Mummy, 23873x Vampire, 22252x Human, 22007x Tengu, 21973x Naga, 21405x Merfolk, 20783x Kobold, 18375x Ogre, 17238x Troll, 14277x Deep Dwarf, 14211x Demigod, 13483x Felid, 13440x Sludge Elf, 11482x Djinni, 11172x Centaur, 8799... 21:52:52 <|amethyst> !lg * recent !boring s=crace 21:52:53 sigmund can be a DD now 21:52:54 i wouldn't mind seeing more humans in the dungeon actually 21:52:55 548915 games for * (recent !boring): 57104x Demonspawn, 51024x Minotaur, 37448x Deep Elf, 32203x Hill Orc, 32088x Octopode, 28120x High Elf, 27651x Draconian, 25574x Spriggan, 23126x Mummy, 21251x Vampire, 19454x Merfolk, 19398x Naga, 18893x Kobold, 18856x Tengu, 18497x Human, 16154x Ogre, 15584x Troll, 12250x Sludge Elf, 11812x Felid, 10437x Djinni, 10347x Deep Dwarf, 9820x Centaur, 9735x Demigod... 21:53:12 but it's like...regular humans sometimes....then you jump up to wizards, necromancers, and hell knights 21:53:25 DracoOmega: I guess dwarves could move to @ even if it's "p"eople 21:53:36 jorgrun the @ would be a bit weird 21:53:52 but not using q for anything at all isn't really much better than only using it for two uniques and show_player_species 21:54:06 <|amethyst> elliott: we also have Q available 21:54:17 ooh 21:54:21 Q is clearly for giant dwarfs 21:54:24 remember when dwarves were on @ and dwarf monsters didn't exist 21:54:25 aka: humanoids! 21:54:25 Hahaha 21:54:29 move them all to Q 21:54:39 <|amethyst> elliott: pqQ@ for humanoids with no rhyme or reason as to what goes where 21:54:46 <|amethyst> elliott: plenty of room for expansion 21:54:50 <|amethyst> elliott: it'll be like insects 21:54:57 get e in on that game 21:55:01 <|amethyst> :) 21:55:03 elves are p.humanoid imo 21:55:07 |amethyst: randomly choose a glyph for each humanoid monster at the start of the game 21:55:08 Well, e itself is basically full 21:55:09 how about we just demand more colors 21:55:21 kilobyte: get us more colors will you? 21:55:22 thanks 21:55:23 <|amethyst> if it has a branch, it gets its own letter 21:55:32 elliott: don't reveal which glyph corresponds to which monster so you have to identify them from their costumes 21:55:37 elliott: but you don't actually know what each humanoid is until you identify them------- 21:56:17 i dont know how we arent devs already with ideas like these 21:56:21 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 21:56:21 <|amethyst> also, of all the non-elemental colours in crawl, which ones don't have @s ? 21:57:25 quick, somebody query mon-data.h to find the answer 21:57:39 <|amethyst> hint: we're racist 21:57:49 what, black 21:57:53 <|amethyst> there are no brown humanoids 21:57:55 black and brown 21:57:58 -!- grathtarg has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:58:03 <|amethyst> or black, but at least that one has a technical explanation 21:58:05 we can't use black that's the background color 21:58:26 |amethyst: yeah, sure :/ 21:58:28 xD 22:01:14 -!- ShadeTornado has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:01:34 In any case, it would be nice to actually see some of this happen, whatever way it ends up happening 22:01:50 More space and fewer clashes is win-win 22:02:03 <|amethyst> is there anything that can't be mocked up in an rc file? 22:02:22 PROBABLY not? 22:02:29 (I am not the person to ask, though :P) 22:02:45 <|amethyst> would be a lot easier to evaluate that way rather than having to recompile :) 22:02:56 Ah, that is true 22:03:33 elliott: Now that I look at the chart again, why was it the convokers got flack for looking like Sigmund, when Frances already looks like Sigmund? :P 22:03:55 nobody notices frances 22:03:57 frances is actually sigmund in drag 22:04:06 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:04:15 i mean you might as well spawn sigmund twice!! 22:04:16 <|amethyst> maurice is eustachio with a shave? 22:04:21 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 22:04:40 it is very easy to change glyphs in rcs yes 22:04:41 elliott: Maybe someone ought to give her summon greater demon or something. It would fit the flavor! :P 22:04:42 and no slave :) 22:04:50 in fact I wonder why the defaults aren't in rc format? 22:04:55 just for monster or something? 22:05:31 possibly so EVERYTHING will ALWAYS have an appearance? 22:05:31 <|amethyst> elliott: well, the base glyphs are used in-game for a few things (e.g. doing glyph overrides) 22:05:47 ?M uses base glyphs 22:06:07 ?M should probably use your rc anyway? 22:06:21 yeah maybe, but at the moment that's how it works 22:06:44 <|amethyst> also mon-speak 22:06:48 <|amethyst> which should not use your rc 22:07:21 do quotes too? 22:07:39 ...to my complete lack of surprise, this latest tile thing I'm working on looks questionable at best in context. 22:07:53 Did you not actually look at it in context FIRST? 22:07:59 (It's still better than ? by default, though) 22:08:08 <|amethyst> oh, right, descriptions and quites 22:08:09 (Since ? has the advantage of not looking like one of the other ?s) 22:08:09 <|amethyst> quotes 22:08:12 http://db.tt/iY0e3Zno 22:08:15 (spot the new tile) 22:08:26 It's a good base concept, I think; I'm just terrible at executing it. 22:08:33 Oh, I thought you meant the bear 22:08:47 The wellspring doesn't pop very much 22:08:53 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:56 Which is kind of bad for something dangerous 22:09:06 i'm... eventually going to get around to doing all the elementals in the same style 22:09:15 <|amethyst> BTW, wellspring in console needs different colours I think 22:09:19 Dragonform has the same school requirements for everyone now? Just pure Tmute? 22:09:24 (ontoclasm is being crushed by all his tile obligations.) 22:09:26 |amethyst: Why? 22:09:30 :U 22:09:37 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: oh, never mind 22:09:38 |amethyst: I didn't think it was one of the options in ETC_WATER, is it? 22:09:41 http://db.tt/koRXKepU for the tile by itself if someone cares to be inspired by it >_> 22:09:46 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: yeah, you're right 22:09:50 quotes and speech and stuff being tied to glyphs is... 22:09:52 kind of wonky in the first place 22:09:58 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: that said, I still had problems telling them apart in a game 22:10:01 and pretty fragile 22:10:11 Hmmmm... =/ 22:10:14 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: precisely because I expected lightcyan to be an ETC_WATER colour 22:10:18 <|amethyst> :) 22:10:19 Haha 22:10:29 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: just swapping them may be enough 22:10:36 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: so the important thing is the one that is flashing 22:10:48 Except I think all elementals use elemental colors 22:10:52 So it might be odd for it to be the one out 22:11:17 <|amethyst> hm 22:11:42 Could make it something less blueish, I guess 22:11:46 and just think, ZZT managed to put each monster on a different glyph 22:11:50 <|amethyst> ETC_MAGIC maybe? 22:12:03 etc_slime 22:12:23 <|amethyst> !fight elemental wellspring colour:magic v elemental wellspring colour:enchant 22:12:28 Anyone? Was Dragonform changed to work without Fire in general now? 22:12:37 yes 22:12:40 ok thanks 22:13:03 -!- ontoclasm{Hunger has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:06 FR: dragon DNA 22:13:50 so you can mix-and-match your dragonforms 22:14:10 <|amethyst> wield a dragon chunk to become a different kind 22:14:33 <|amethyst> (I'm half serious about that) 22:14:45 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:14:46 ??dragon form 22:14:46 dragon form[1/4]: You're a dragon now! RAAAAWR! Breathe fire! Be tough (+60% hp) and strong! Level 7 Transmutations/Fire. Single-school transmutations for draconians. 22:15:08 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:15:15 !learn edit dragon_form[4] s|/Fire|| 22:15:16 !learn edit dragon_form s@/Fire@ (/Fire in 0.12-)@ 22:15:16 No change because the regex failed to match. 22:15:17 Use: !learn edit dragon_form[NUM] s/// 22:15:18 -!- randomizr is now known as RZX 22:15:21 !learn edit dragon_form[1] s@/Fire@ (/Fire in 0.12-)@ 22:15:21 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:15:21 dragon form[1/4]: You're a dragon now! RAAAAWR! Breathe fire! Be tough (+60% hp) and strong! Level 7 Transmutations (/Fire in 0.12-). Single-school transmutations for draconians. 22:15:38 -!- Oregano has joined ##crawl-dev 22:15:49 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 22:16:30 <|amethyst> !learn edit dragon_form[1] s/12-.*/12-, except for draconians)./ 22:16:30 dragon form[1/4]: You're a dragon now! RAAAAWR! Breathe fire! Be tough (+60% hp) and strong! Level 7 Transmutations (/Fire in 0.12-, except for draconians). 22:16:49 Incidentally, one other overlap I think is kind of bad is hellions and balrugs/cacodemons 22:16:57 Not that I really know what to do about this 22:17:25 <|amethyst> that was from the Great Demon Reshuffle :) 22:17:27 fund Unicode stuff so we can use more letters 22:17:28 how do you put a wiki article in the graveyard? 22:17:31 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:race_specific_spells 22:17:33 this can go there 22:17:34 I mean, 2 has free space 22:17:38 But none of it is very fiery 22:17:48 Clearly make one or more of them not 2s :b 22:17:52 Well, actually wait... 22:17:53 lightred is very fiery and also the same as brimstone fiends 22:18:01 I was just about to say 22:18:06 Thanks to the magic of this chart 22:18:08 Couldn't they just be lightred? 22:18:29 that's what I have in my rc 22:18:31 move them to 1 clearly 22:18:33 Isn't hellfire ALSO lightred now? 22:18:39 yes 22:18:44 Even better 22:18:48 Why is this not already the case? 22:18:51 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: perfect! :) 22:18:57 why would crawl make sense??? 22:19:02 elliott: One tries! 22:19:02 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: because the colour of hellfire just changed :) 22:19:18 |amethyst: Well, it would have made sense long before that. This is just icing 22:19:18 elemental hellions are sort of cute 22:19:22 if you hold down space on hellion island 22:19:23 but that's it 22:19:37 Well, cute is nice. But they're also superdangerous, so clear is even nicer 22:19:39 DracoOmega: you're making me want cake 22:19:42 Consessions to playability :P 22:20:34 -!- johnquixote has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:21:08 todo: cake as food <_< 22:21:15 -!- flowsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:21:30 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: probably because there wasn't a conflict until balrugs moved, and no one thought to change hellions since then 22:21:40 also cacodemons to cyan, just saying "fits in dis" 22:21:41 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:42 does anyone know how to move things into the wiki graveyard? if I edit the page itself it doesn't let you change the URI, if I edit the graveyard it doesn't let you add links to it 22:21:46 I have seen people complain, but sometimes that doesn't reach the level of things actually happening 22:21:52 st_: can we move Hell Sentinels to cyan too? 22:21:59 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: there were no red 2s other than hellion a few years ago (just sun demons on yellow) 22:22:36 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 22:22:40 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:23:13 DracoOmega, tileschat is praising new Gr, by the way. 22:23:14 Of people on 'p' and people on 'q', which do people have a general preference for? 'q' would require a lot less shuffling of things, since 'p' is quite a bit more full of things that will be staying in the game, but 'p' also has the clearer word-association :P 22:23:18 Grunt: Oh? 22:23:30 Just... general praise. :b 22:23:33 -!- Oregano has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:49 wow bad sign 22:23:49 -!- Oregano has joined ##crawl-dev 22:23:53 give everyone beards to compensate 22:24:13 -!- flowsnake has joined ##crawl-dev 22:24:17 Grunt: Well, perhaps it can slightly offset the people I have apparently been driving to suicide? >.>; 22:24:20 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:24:27 goodbye cruel world 22:24:29 -!- Rebthor has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 22:24:50 SwissStopwatch: "Every single enemy in forest makes me want to kill 22:24:50 myself" 22:24:54 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 22:24:56 when it looks like I suicide that's just my stupidity FWIW 22:24:57 I am adding 'fun', it seems 22:24:59 wow literally all of them? 22:25:08 Well, so he said! 22:25:09 can't you at least split the credit with grunt 22:25:15 Hey! :P 22:25:22 I'm sure he'll take some of it if you like 22:25:26 you're not adding !!FUN!! 22:25:28 you're adding -fun- 22:25:37 DracoOmega is also into ruins and removals 22:25:46 even if it has to be something abstract and unemotional like "XP" 22:25:52 becoming a proper crawl dev 22:25:55 ??dracoomega[2 22:25:55 dracoomega[2/4]: needs to ruin more things so we can hate him properly 22:26:32 elliott: The great thing about the xp nerf is it has major conseuqences, yet most people won't even consciously notice unless you tell them 22:26:34 >.> 22:26:56 Between that and fixing AF_ damage, I wonder how many people I have killed in totally untraceable ways? 22:27:02 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:27:28 -!- rrage has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:27:31 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 22:27:31 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:50 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 22:28:15 Ok so I don't know if there is a faster way to move things to the graveyard, but I copy pasted my race_specific_spells suggestion into there and deleted the text from the active proposals / suggestions area 22:28:32 anyway I think "p"eople is sort of more aesthetically pleasing to me than "q"eople 22:28:52 "p"eople involves changing non-humanoid glyphs a lot more 22:28:55 I think I'm starting to notice it between the nerf itself, having bad-ish apts to start, and realizing that orb spiders can 2shot me easily 22:29:01 since you have to move common things like ghosts 22:29:02 now that I'm down like 30 HP 22:29:02 -!- Oregano has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:29:11 (but you can argue they should move anyway) 22:29:20 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:30:08 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:30:12 -!- randomizr is now known as RZX 22:30:38 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: every gargoyle that dies at a low number of HP will be your fault 22:30:49 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: err, at not too negative a number of HP I mean 22:31:09 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: though I guess you have to take the extra AC into account too 22:31:17 has anyone died from clinging removal yet 22:31:21 I would love to see that tv 22:31:33 <|amethyst> !lg * gargoyle ktype=drowning 22:31:33 2. Chmeee the Brawler (L17 GrMo), worshipper of Okawaru, drowned on D:11 (minmay_twisted_water) on 2013-06-09 04:10:50, with 131286 points after 48231 turns and 2:56:00. 22:31:40 <|amethyst> nope 22:31:42 <|amethyst> not directly 22:31:54 <|amethyst> well, I guess there's spider form 22:31:59 does lava get ktyp=drowning 22:32:14 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 22:32:17 <|amethyst> !lg * gargoyle ktype=lava 22:32:18 1. kickascii the Sensei (L23 GrMo), worshipper of Okawaru, took a swim in molten lava on D:23 (evilmike_quicksilver_bait) on 2013-06-01 01:33:47, with 358101 points after 54291 turns and 4:11:08. 22:32:37 Well, probably about 90% of ice beast kills in 0.13 are my fault 22:32:37 !lg * status=spider_form ktyp=drowning|lava 22:32:37 No games for * (status=spider_form ktyp=drowning|lava). 22:32:41 !lg * status=spider ktyp=drowning|lava 22:32:42 8. alphasco the Transmogrifier (L10 DrTm), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, took a swim in molten lava on D:9 (einodemon_armed_red_devil_minivault) on 2012-10-25 17:08:42, with 5205 points after 13218 turns and 0:45:36. 22:32:44 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: and sky beast 22:32:46 !lg * ikiller=ice_beast cv=~0.13 22:32:47 792. MongoFromTheCongo the Poker (L4 MfAK), worshipper of Lugonu, slain by an ice beast on D:3 on 2013-07-11 02:44:21, with 187 points after 1984 turns and 0:03:04. 22:33:17 unknown monster: "Skybeast" 22:33:17 %?Skybeast 22:33:18 <|amethyst> !lg * s=cv / killer=ice_beast 22:33:21 9378/2428101 games for *: 1317/241685x 0.10 [0.54%], 1151/190444x 0.9 [0.60%], 832/129563x 0.13-a [0.64%], 780/227786x 0.5 [0.34%], 741/144565x 0.4 [0.51%], 701/179656x 0.7 [0.39%], 672/144721x 0.8 [0.46%], 549/84847x 0.12 [0.65%], 437/78899x 0.10-a [0.55%], 395/105430x 0.6 [0.37%], 341/101626x 0.8-a [0.34%], 297/84396x 0.3 [0.35%], 249/49347x 0.9-a [0.50%], 203/42390x 0.2 [0.48%], 146/205049x 0.1... 22:33:22 sky beast (11I) | Spd: 10 | HD: 5 | HP: 17-38 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Dam: 511(elec:5-6) | fly | Res: 06magic(20), 11elec+++, asphyx | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 130 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 22:33:22 %?Sky beast 22:33:25 sky beast (11I) | Spd: 10 | HD: 5 | HP: 17-38 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Dam: 511(elec:5-6) | fly | Res: 06magic(20), 11elec+++, asphyx, 12drown | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 130 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 22:33:25 %??Sky beast 22:33:53 <|amethyst> !lg * s=cv o=cv / killer=ice_beast 22:33:56 9378/2428101 games for *: 832/129563x 0.13-a [0.64%], 549/84847x 0.12 [0.65%], 146/205049x 0.12-a [0.07%], 93/212873x 0.11 [0.04%], 104/89907x 0.11-a [0.12%], 1317/241685x 0.10 [0.54%], 437/78899x 0.10-a [0.55%], 1151/190444x 0.9 [0.60%], 249/49347x 0.9-a [0.50%], 672/144721x 0.8 [0.46%], 341/101626x 0.8-a [0.34%], 701/179656x 0.7 [0.39%], 107/36719x 0.7-a [0.29%], 395/105430x 0.6 [0.37%], 137/377... 22:34:23 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34:25 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: 90% is close to right :) 22:34:38 Yeah, the number wasn't arbitrary. I remember looking at those before :P 22:34:46 <|amethyst> !lg * s=cv o=cv / killer=sky_beast 22:34:47 !lg * s=cv o=cv / killer=~ugly_thing 22:34:52 4889/2428103 games for *: 670/129565x 0.13-a [0.52%], 490/84847x 0.12 [0.58%], 175/205049x 0.12-a [0.09%], 137/212873x 0.11 [0.06%], 93/89907x 0.11-a [0.10%], 1195/241685x 0.10 [0.49%], 303/78899x 0.10-a [0.38%], 846/190444x 0.9 [0.44%], 191/49347x 0.9-a [0.39%], 565/144721x 0.8 [0.39%], 224/101626x 0.8-a [0.22%], 0/179656x 0.7 [0.00%], 0/36719x 0.7-a [0.00%], 0/105430x 0.6 [0.00%], 0/37709x 0.6-a... 22:34:52 1613/2428103 games for *: 174/129565x 0.13-a [0.13%], 113/84847x 0.12 [0.13%], 62/205049x 0.12-a [0.03%], 46/212873x 0.11 [0.02%], 43/89907x 0.11-a [0.05%], 256/241685x 0.10 [0.11%], 69/78899x 0.10-a [0.09%], 188/190444x 0.9 [0.10%], 53/49347x 0.9-a [0.11%], 142/144721x 0.8 [0.10%], 72/101626x 0.8-a [0.07%], 164/179656x 0.7 [0.09%], 25/36719x 0.7-a [0.07%], 76/105430x 0.6 [0.07%], 36/37709x 0.6-a ... 22:35:01 That's adorable. 22:36:10 -!- RichardSimmons has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:36:46 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: arguably about 20% of the current deaths are the fault of the bug :) 22:37:14 Gotta be some kind of record for a single commit :P 22:38:03 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:38:04 -!- randomizr is now known as RZX 22:41:21 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 22:41:21 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:42:12 -!- minqmay has quit [Client Quit] 22:42:24 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:44:03 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:45:49 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:59 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:47:51 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:47:59 -!- RZX_ is now known as RZX 22:49:52 It's sort of funny seeing a gargoyle dance out of catoblepas breath repeatedly 22:50:11 is their rPetr 100% 22:50:12 As if there was some kind of reason to avoid standing in it 22:50:18 -!- randomizr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:50:18 I sure hope it is! 22:50:22 It is supposed to be 22:50:43 |amethyst: which bug? 22:50:46 Reminds me of fighting a catoblepas with Vitalisation active. 22:50:51 That was therapeutic. 22:51:41 buttholecancer is such an attractive name 22:52:17 I wonder who's behind all those beautiful webtiles displays. 22:53:14 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 22:53:17 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 22:54:21 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/] 22:54:35 -!- Ramc has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:54:39 well sometimes the breath blocks LoS 22:54:49 so it still is very good at irritating them 22:55:23 <|amethyst> bh: the lack of AF_ damage 22:56:09 <|amethyst> bh: because after it was fixed the kills by ice beasts etc went higher than they were before the bug 22:56:13 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:23 SwissStopwatch: Well, this was on open terrain 22:56:37 And he was in melee range of the catoblepas, too :P 22:56:44 But just walked in circles instead 22:56:49 heh 22:57:22 It IS a bit strange seeing characters with such bulky defenses and such alarmingly low hp at the same time, I admit : 22:57:38 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:57:53 well 22:58:12 -20% HP is really very extreme even if it only seems mildly extreme I think :P 22:58:12 I realize that is by design, but it's still different watching it in practice! 22:58:18 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:58:31 I've never felt or been so fragile with 43 AC 22:58:36 Haha 22:58:43 Which I guess is part of the idea, I guess 22:59:04 The other parts of this build are doing their part to help drag it down too though 22:59:10 What kind of armour are you using anyway? 22:59:11 I never imagined crossbows would feel so bad 22:59:13 chain 22:59:20 Ah, so reasonably heavy stuff then 22:59:27 yeah 22:59:45 it feels like plate mail except worse I guess 22:59:48 well to be fair 22:59:58 kobolds and tengu and deep elves aren't really that awful 23:00:01 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00:06 well 23:00:10 like you can play DEFE and not train dodging and still be ok :P 23:00:13 They all dodge a heck of a lot more though 23:00:23 I think tengu is sort of awful 23:00:38 in all the little ways 23:00:45 Tengu seems fairly non-good, yes 23:00:48 Worse than they look on paper 23:00:58 SwissStopwatch: it seems like you could have better EV than you have now 23:01:02 without losing much AC 23:01:09 if you downgraded your armour a little maybe?? 23:01:17 I don't think that'd help a lot though 23:01:21 (I don't actually know what your armour's enchantment is) 23:01:28 it's +4, it's not very good 23:01:33 -!- Celsitud1 is now known as Celsitudo 23:02:06 not bad either, if I enchant it to +8 I'm not dissatisfied with it 23:02:10 but I don't really want to either 23:02:22 DracoOmega: can I convince you to move greater mummies to lightmagenta 23:02:27 it's so much better (and consistent with nagas) 23:02:47 Would anyone complain? 23:02:49 Okay, that's a bad question, since the answer is always yes. 23:03:21 I think like two or three other people use lightmagenta gmummies because of me 23:03:31 the other greater mummy recolouring I know of is N7's which is green but I don't like that because it makes me think priest 23:03:31 but yeah, Deep Elf is actually quite good (but I still think not super excellent) 23:03:47 Kobold is fine, but the -20% HP makes it really a lot worse than Halfling to me 23:03:58 "arguably" they should be lightgreen because they're kind of like "mummy high priests" and then mummy priests should be green but that's a bit extreme 23:04:07 it's just really annoying not being able to tell them from regular mummies 23:04:10 naga mage on magenta 23:04:11 especially on tomb zig levels 23:04:21 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:04:36 and lightmagenta is kind of a cool colour, it makes them look special 23:04:57 greater mummies are essentially very strong priests 23:05:08 so it's not like that's an inappropriate association 23:05:21 yeah 23:05:30 if you want to use a "high priest" colour then you need to move mummy priests though 23:05:34 and then it all starts getting elaborate 23:05:41 Haha 23:05:43 sounds like it already is 23:05:43 whereas making them consistent with naga glyphs is easy and more distinct 23:05:46 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 23:05:59 like if you renamed them to high priests ok 23:06:03 but they're called greater mummies, so :P 23:06:25 -!- doerrpau has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:06:56 I don't necessarily object to the idea, but I am too tired to commit anything at the moment anyway, sorry 23:09:11 whoa! A giant stumbles! ;) 23:10:27 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Quit: bye] 23:14:33 I still have lightred g.nagas and lightred g.mummies and lightmagenta khufu 23:16:54 !tell ontoclasm https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/Doomknight.png 23:16:55 Bloaxor: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 23:17:08 Bloaxor: reminds me of Cloud's bustersword 23:17:55 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:17:56 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:18:21 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 23:25:23 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:07 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:29:54 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 23:30:47 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 23:30:47 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:03 !seen qoala 23:37:04 I last saw qoala at Wed Jul 3 13:26:17 2013 UTC (1w 15h 10m 45s ago) quitting with message 'Quit: sleep'. 23:37:17 -!- Kalir has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:39 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 23:38:29 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:40:00 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:40:09 -!- randomizr is now known as RZX 23:41:02 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 23:41:02 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:41:24 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:43:53 -!- Melum_ has quit [Quit: Was eaten by a grue.] 23:44:37 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.13-a0-2350-g4422b0a (34) 23:46:07 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:46:18 -!- randomizr is now known as RZX 23:47:09 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 23:47:10 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:27 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:49:21 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 23:50:12 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:08 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:23 -!- six40sword has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:57:37 -!- sacje has quit [Quit: sacje] 23:59:50 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:59:58 -!- randomizr is now known as RZX