00:00:40 <SamB> why, what would you use instead of grep
00:02:24 <radiantsilence> I dunno, I just recall seeing this sort of thing specifically some time back
00:02:41 <radiantsilence> I need more sleep
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00:05:47 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1628-g8987dc3 (34)
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01:11:02 <evilmike> <kilobyte> archviles would be reasonably easy to code
01:11:02 <evilmike> <kilobyte> cyberdemon could use named pan lord tile code; its "always three rockets in a row" gimmick is codeable
01:11:02 <Henzell> evilmike: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
01:11:08 <evilmike> these would both be fun monsters imo!!
01:11:36 <evilmike> archviles would get to revive demons and they'd have a (delayed?) hellfire with knockback. I guess the demon revive would need some thought, since most demons dont drop corpses
01:11:44 <evilmike> cyberdemons should shoot a barrage of exploding ioods
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01:16:47 <Wahaha_> Hi, what should I do if I encountered a bug that's closed on mantis?
01:17:00 <|amethyst> what bug?
01:17:10 <Wahaha_> When tiles appear as green crystal when they shouldn't
01:18:51 <Wahaha_> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4705
01:18:51 <|amethyst> in trunk?
01:18:56 <Wahaha_> I couldn't find an open bug for this
01:19:26 <Wahaha_> Yes in trunk
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01:22:45 <Wahaha_> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6150
01:22:48 <Wahaha_> this is the most recent one
01:22:52 <|amethyst> post a description of your bug, with a screenshot and save if possible, to that bug (or #6150, which is a more recently closed bug)
01:22:56 <|amethyst> yeah
01:23:14 <|amethyst> also indicate the exact version of trunk in your post
01:26:29 <Wahaha_> How do I find out the version if I'm playing online?
01:27:28 <|amethyst> ?V
01:27:39 <Wahaha_> oh thanks
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01:38:27 <|amethyst> Wahaha_:  thanks, I reopened the bug
01:38:34 <Wahaha_> thanks
01:38:48 <|amethyst> Wahaha_:  can you save your game
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01:38:56 <|amethyst> and give me a second to make a backup
01:39:00 <Wahaha_> saved
01:39:53 <|amethyst> okay, you can go back to playing
01:39:54 <|amethyst> thanks
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02:38:59 <DracoOmega> I don't know if anyone's around or not, but I was wondering people's thoughts on a relatively far-out thing I have found myself pondering today.
02:39:11 <DracoOmega> I can see reasons why this might be a bad thing, but... what do people think about removing yellow draconians?
02:39:19 <DracoOmega> The player ones get no apt adjustments and a very boring and underwhelming breath attack, and while some of that can be adjusted, enemy yellow draconians are also a rather obnoxious enemy and certainly a poorly-liked one.
02:40:13 <DracoOmega> And it's not like there's even a dragon they're related to here, either :P
02:40:32 <DracoOmega> Unlike virtually all the otheres
02:40:46 <Flex> I like that, unless a way to make player yellow dracs more interesting could be done
02:41:24 <SwissStopwatch> yellow dracs, the most hated dracs
02:41:42 <DracoOmega> Well, I think there could be, certainly. But if the enemy itself is unpleasant, I don't think there's a need to keep them purely for a relatively uninteresting player variant
02:42:06 <evilmike> player yellow draconians: no one will miss them, acid breath is meh and their apts are the same as brown draconians, which is kind of boring
02:42:34 <evilmike> monster draconians: everyone will love you forever if they are removed, I dont think they are really a bad monster though
02:42:35 <MarvinPA> player ones seem fine to me, and i don't have a problem with the monster
02:43:01 <evilmike> what I'd rather see is just a better breath attack for players
02:43:13 <DracoOmega> I'm sort of on the cusp about the monster. Like, I don't think they are necessary bad, but they ARE kind of annoying to fight without necessarily being scary either
02:43:28 <evilmike> it doesn't even matter if it's completely different from monsters, there are already huge inconsistencies with other breaths
02:43:31 <DracoOmega> Which is not necessarily a great combination
02:43:59 <MarvinPA> the breath isn't as ridiculous as red or pale or whatever but it's not bad, decent damage and more spammable than other breaths
02:44:15 <DracoOmega> I thought the 'more spammable' bit went away with the 0.8 breath revamp?
02:44:16 <MarvinPA> also acid bite is cool
02:44:24 <MarvinPA> no, it has half the cooldown compared to other breaths
02:44:26 <DracoOmega> Acid bite does virtually no damage whatsoever, even though it sounds like it could
02:44:37 <evilmike> it would be cool if you spit acid that blinds enemies or something
02:45:11 <DracoOmega> Really, I definitely think that player yellow draconians could be made more interesting with some thought and effort in this direction. This line of thinking mostly started with the monster ones.
02:45:13 <MarvinPA> monster item corrosion could also be made be more severe
02:45:25 <MarvinPA> since you don't really care that you're corroding their items anyway
02:45:30 <elliott> DracoOmega: you should remove green draconians imo
02:45:48 <evilmike> ancientcrawl had golden draconians instead of yellow ones (they were the same as yellow though)
02:45:50 <SwissStopwatch> you care in annoying specific instances
02:46:03 <DracoOmega> elliott: If this is some anti-meph thing, you'll find no support from me :P
02:46:11 <DracoOmega> I happen to like green breath
02:46:16 <DracoOmega> (Both versions)
02:46:22 <SwissStopwatch> but not too many monsters wear ego cloaks or anything I guess
02:46:49 <DracoOmega> Well, the thing is, I think that even if player breath corroded things quite a lot more, the tiny reduction in AC or damage would be too small to notice
02:47:16 <MarvinPA> i don't see how 5 less AC or something would be too small to notice
02:47:41 <DracoOmega> Hmmmm... well, 5 might be, maybe
02:47:55 <evilmike> what if monsters lose AC regardless of whether they have armour?
02:48:08 <evilmike> like instead of corroding items, they get a -AC debuff
02:48:18 <DracoOmega> Yes, that was part of the last idea for player yellow breath that I heard which I liked
02:48:30 <MarvinPA> that could also work
02:48:40 <evilmike> I don't like corroding armour, because most monsters don't use armour, and a lot of the ones that do aren't really that scary
02:48:49 <evilmike> or they wear robes or w/e
02:49:21 <elliott> what if that also applied to players
02:49:30 <MarvinPA> well orc warriors exist
02:49:38 <DracoOmega> elliott: That would certainly make fighting them a lot more fun, I think
02:49:40 <MarvinPA> and are the top killer at around xl7-15 by the look of it
02:50:05 <elliott> and what if jellies did it too!!! and all those other monsters that are annoying because of corrosion
02:50:20 <DracoOmega> Somehow I don't mind it as much from jellies and acid blobs and the like
02:50:44 <evilmike> me neither
02:50:49 <DracoOmega> Possibly because they aren't mixed so deeply in with other scarier unrelated threats
02:51:43 <DracoOmega> (Maybe also because yellow drac breath is actually LESS dangerous than the other breaths, yet more unpleasant?)
02:52:00 <evilmike> that's probably the main factor ,really
02:52:07 <DracoOmega> Whereas acid blobs are plenty dangerous
02:52:08 <evilmike> most enemies with corroding attacks hurt a lot for their depths
02:52:24 <DracoOmega> I mean, yellow draconians can be plenty dangerous too, but that's because of the things they do that are NOT their breath
02:53:22 <DracoOmega> I think I actually could get behind yellow draconians having some kind of magiacid that does an AC debuff instead of corrosion.
02:53:31 <DracoOmega> Or whatever flavor could be an appropriate carrier for the mechanics
02:53:46 <evilmike> I was only thinking of that for player dracs really, maybe it could be a monster thing too
02:54:05 <DracoOmega> Well, I think it would make the monsters less unpleasant to fight while ALSO making them more likely to inflict serious damage on you
02:54:14 <DracoOmega> Since it comboes nicely with bands of other people beating on you
02:54:19 <evilmike> it could, yes
02:54:33 <evilmike> funny thing is I think most drac breaths ignore AC
02:54:35 <DracoOmega> And if it means extra symmetry between the player and monster versions, more the better
02:54:41 <DracoOmega> Just white
02:54:52 <MarvinPA> yellow drac breath is their top kaux, i think it is pretty dangerous
02:54:52 <DracoOmega> Well, black also ignores half, since it is lightning
02:54:57 <MarvinPA> it does a bunch of damage
02:55:03 <evilmike> don't steam and poison also ignore it?
02:55:13 <DracoOmega> Oh, I suppose if you're poisoned. Steam shouldn't, though.
02:55:24 <evilmike> oh yeah, also purple actually does damage, I forgot it does more than dispel haste
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02:57:31 <DracoOmega> Well, if you compare
02:57:39 <DracoOmega> !lg * ckiller=~draconian s=kaux
02:57:41 <Sequell> 1917 games for * (ckiller=~draconian): 591x, 201x bolt of lightning, 174x chilling blast, 114x searing blast, 83x ball of steam, 81x bolt of dispelling energy, 61x orb of energy, 51x burst of hellfire, 49x crystal spear, 41x blast of poison, 35x blast of hellfire, 35x splash of acid, 28x bolt of fire, 26x sticky flame, 26x fireball, 20x by divine providence, 20x poison gas, 19x blast of searing br...
02:57:51 <MarvinPA> anyway yeah as far as breaths go it appears to be one of the most dangerous, i don't see that it is some kind of insignificant "just annoyance" thing
02:58:01 <DracoOmega> One of the most dangerous? It's way down that list
02:58:11 <DracoOmega> Below black, white, red, pale, purple....
02:58:18 <evilmike> wait, it's really less dangerous than steam??
02:58:21 <DracoOmega> Yes
02:58:27 <evilmike> I didn't realize steam hurt that much
02:58:30 <DracoOmega> It's below even the IMPACT damage from green, by the looks of it
02:58:42 <evilmike> weird
02:58:46 <MarvinPA> well i was just looking at recent games
02:58:53 <MarvinPA> since these things have changed a lot
02:59:08 <DracoOmega> !lg * cv>0.10 ckiller=~draconian s=kaux
02:59:10 <Sequell> 459 games for * (cv>0.10 ckiller=~draconian): 151x, 46x bolt of lightning, 23x bolt of dispelling energy, 22x chilling blast, 20x searing blast, 15x ball of steam, 14x splash of acid, 14x crystal spear, 14x burst of hellfire, 11x bolt of fire, 8x iron shot, 8x by divine providence, 7x blast of hellfire, 7x blast of poison, 7x poison gas, 6x flame, 5x fireball, 4x Shot with an arrow by a draconian,...
02:59:43 <MarvinPA> obviously red and white have the most because they're ridiculous, purple have more because wizlab, yellow is not far behind those
03:00:05 <simmarine> i want to see if the player has rpois for some lua, how would i do that
03:00:07 <DracoOmega> I imagine a fair number of those bolts of lightning are black breath, actually (though I am not sure how you could tell)
03:00:08 <MarvinPA> green, mottled are much more "annoying but not dangerous"
03:00:28 <evilmike> !lg * cv>0.10 place=zot ckiller=~draconian s=kaux
03:00:28 <Sequell> 115 games for * (cv>0.10 place=zot ckiller=~draconian): 14x bolt of lightning, 11x, 10x crystal spear, 8x burst of hellfire, 7x bolt of dispelling energy, 7x splash of acid, 6x by divine providence, 5x blast of hellfire, 4x poison gas, 4x chilling blast, 4x iron shot, 3x searing blast, 3x bolt of fire, flame, a +0,+1 orcish war axe, a +0,+0 great mace, a +2,+2 battleaxe, a +1,+2 mace, Hit by a thr...
03:00:50 <DracoOmega> Huh, odd
03:01:15 <DracoOmega> Only 3 of 20 red drac kills from that were in Zot?
03:01:19 <DracoOmega> Where were the others I wonder?
03:01:24 <evilmike> D:27 maybe
03:01:47 <st_> D:27 has more draconians than zot now, don't you know?
03:01:59 <Medar> !lg * cv>0.10 s=place ckiller=~draconian
03:02:00 <DracoOmega> !lg * cv>0.10 kaux=searing_blast s=place
03:02:01 <Sequell> 459 games for * (cv>0.10 ckiller=~draconian): 206x Abyss, 65x Abyss:1, 38x Zot:5, 29x Zot:1, 22x Zot:3, 16x D:27, 15x D:8, 13x Zot:4, 13x Zot:2, 9x Abyss:2, 6x D:9, 5x WizLab, 3x D:26, 3x D:25, 2x D:1, D:4, Vaults:3, Pan, D:7, D:3, Abyss:4, Vaults:2, Lair:5, D:11, Zig:8, D:2, D:6, D:10, Vaults:4
03:02:01 <Sequell> 20 games for * (cv>0.10 kaux=searing_blast): 8x Abyss, 5x Abyss:1, 2x Zot:1, Abyss:2, Zot:3, D:27, D:26, Lair:5
03:02:12 <DracoOmega> Or the Abyss, it seems
03:02:31 <MarvinPA> something something profane halls
03:02:50 <MarvinPA> and d:24 or whatever it is
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03:03:01 <st_> evilmike: hey remember when zot entries first existed and we said "yeah zot entries shouldn't be as much as lemuel_castle, that is ridiculous"
03:03:03 <MarvinPA> (wow can we not have millions of draconians on d:24)
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03:03:21 <elliott> how many reductions has profane halls been through now
03:03:23 <elliott> 3?
03:03:25 <evilmike> st_: yeah. I haven't really paid attention to the newer D:27 vaults and haven't seen any in a real game
03:03:39 <elliott> evilmike: you should see it, it's... impressive
03:03:42 <evilmike> if they are really that ridiculous then they should be toned down
03:03:59 <evilmike> I think draconians guarding the zot entry is cool, but it shouldn't be a full level of them
03:04:05 <DracoOmega> Well, it's not a Zot entry vault
03:04:09 <DracoOmega> It's a late D encompass vault
03:04:26 <evilmike> even lemuel_castle only puts draconians on D:26/27
03:04:27 <DracoOmega> (It has tons of things that are not draconians, too)
03:04:32 <st_> pretty sure profane halls can appear on d:27
03:04:35 <elliott> it's also a zot entry vault
03:04:37 <DracoOmega> Well, it can
03:04:40 <DracoOmega> But I mean it's not JUST one
03:04:50 <MarvinPA> for a start maybe it should only get dracs when it appears on d:27
03:05:00 <MarvinPA> and not on d:24-27
03:05:07 <elliott> imo remove the centre bit at least unless that already got fixed
03:05:14 <elliott> since right now you have to exclude <s on the next level
03:05:15 <evilmike> 24 seems too early, maybe replace them with pro-tier elves instead
03:05:19 <elliott> in case you use one and end up surrounded by 50 monsters
03:05:24 <MarvinPA> that's what it gets at 21-24 currently, yeah
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03:09:34 <DracoOmega> Relative lethality aside, I still think that making yellow drac breath do something other than traditional corrosion might make fighting them more fun than present, and I am not sure there is a strong downside to doing this?
03:11:26 <simmarine> sticky acid
03:11:40 <dtsund> Antimagic globs
03:11:51 <dtsund> Suppression globs
03:12:52 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA 07* 0.13-a0-1629-gd65f83e: Don't place draconians in D:24-26 profane_halls 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d65f83e9e8d6
03:12:54 <DracoOmega> Well, you could say that the 'acid' or whatever it is makes materials it coats unnaturally permeable
03:12:54 <DracoOmega> But doesn't actually affect their integrity
03:12:54 <DracoOmega> Once it wears off
03:13:57 <st_> breathe disenchantment
03:14:52 <DracoOmega> Wasn't one aim to make it LESS unpleasant, here? :P
03:15:02 <Mu_> maybe it's just sticky goo breath that temporarily lowers your evasion instead of damaging your AC
03:15:09 <dtsund> Oh.
03:15:16 <simmarine> corona breath
03:15:25 <dtsund> Butterfly breath
03:15:59 <simmarine> corona breath: the only answer for those poor draconian packs vs invisibility
03:16:09 <DracoOmega> Haha
03:16:13 <DracoOmega> Doesn't purple breath work? :P
03:16:21 <dtsund> Actually, a monster with a smite-targeted sputterflies coupled with an actual smite might be interesting
03:21:56 <Mu_> did that error messages thing get fixed yet
03:22:02 <Mu_> before i go ahead and make tiles again
03:22:11 <DracoOmega> I don't think anything has been done with it, no
03:22:11 <gammafunk> !tell mumra I made a gitorious repo (gammfunk-crawl) with a jump_attack branch that you can pull from; Dragoons are gone in this version
03:22:12 <Henzell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let mumra know.
03:22:17 <Mu_> alright
03:22:37 <gammafunk> !tell mumra There are 7 commits broken down by feature, and the last is an important bugfix
03:22:38 <Henzell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let mumra know.
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03:23:44 <gammafunk> !tell mumra sorry, that repo is crawl-gammafunk, not gammafunk-crawl
03:23:45 <Henzell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let mumra know.
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04:19:03 <Mu_> i was going to make a mantis item about allies vs. invisible units but i'm not sure if it's a bug report or just me angrily ranting about a frustrating game, so i just stuck it on pastebin instead http://pastebin.com/B9EiaC98
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05:00:05 <Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1607-g164a639
05:02:47 <Mu_> ok let's see how annoying i can make tar_mu
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06:07:10 <mumra> Mu_: you should probably post that somewhere more permanent e.g. wiki or c-r-d at least, otherwise hardly anybody will ever see it
06:07:10 <Henzell> mumra: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
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06:14:33 <Mu_> i wanted to know if it was worth putting anywhere
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06:19:18 <mumra> "Invisible enemies vs. summon with see invis BUT player lacks detection." == "Invisible enemies vs. summon with see invis AND player lacks detection." ?
06:20:37 <Mu_> last one was a typo
06:20:47 <mumra> there are definitely some strange inconsistencies pointed out there
06:20:55 <mumra> but i'm not sure what the proposed solution is?
06:21:16 <Mu_> sense invis should work for allies like it does for enemies
06:21:42 <Mu_> and allies with no detection at all should at least try to hit things that are attacking them
06:21:44 <Mu_> imo
06:23:06 <Bloax> I would like that too.
06:23:08 <mumra> the second part is hard to conceive implementation-wise; technically the allies don't know where they are being hit from
06:23:18 <mumra> so this implies them flailing about randomly
06:23:24 <mumra> (think unseen horrors)
06:23:44 <Bloax> Flailing around randomly is infinitely better than awaiting death.
06:23:57 <mumra> yes
06:24:03 <mumra> but coding it isn't very pretty
06:25:37 <Mu_> the sense invis thing is far more annoying tbh
06:26:07 <Mu_> war dogs should be able to see and engage things up to like 3 squares away, but they don't behave like they can
06:26:19 <Mu_> ??sense invisible
06:26:20 <Henzell> sense invisible[1/2]: Monsters which "sense invisible" can see invisible opponents if they are distance 4 or less away, and have bonuses to perception in other cases.
06:26:30 <Mu_> oh it's even better than 3
06:27:45 <Mu_> also if the player can see invis and can issue an attack command vs. an invisible enemy, maybe your summons could at least try to move onto that tile even if they can't see anything themselves
06:28:43 <mumra> hmm, players could abuse that to make allies go to particular squares (which has generally been avoided in the shout menu)
06:29:14 <Mu_> i don't think you can issue an attack command vs. an empty square though
06:29:19 <mumra> (i'm not sure why that is a bad and game-breaking thing right now but i'm hungover and tired :P)
06:29:38 <mumra> oh right i see
06:29:46 <mumra> when there's a detected invisible there only
06:29:55 <Mu_> ye
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06:48:40 <mumra> !coffee
06:48:40 * Henzell hands mumra a cup of latte macchiato, brewed by the Serpent of Hell.
06:48:55 <mumra> sweet, hellcoffee
06:49:29 <mumra> fr hell's kitchen vaults
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07:14:09 <mumra> hi edlothiol
07:14:23 <mumra> someone was posting about a problem with webtiles graphics getting downscaled
07:14:28 <mumra> http://image-upload.de/image/ccQsMK/6aae706537.jpg
07:14:48 <Cheibriados> 03Mu 07* 0.13-a0-1630-g20840b5: Fix tar_mu not being annoying enough 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 76+ 153-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=20840b55423a
07:14:50 <mumra> this is something i've noticed as well if i have a small window
07:15:17 <mumra> i'm wondering if lower resolutions could be handled better; e.g. reduce the font size, reduce the minimap, reduce the number of message lines
07:15:38 <mumra> so there's more room for the actual tiles view and it doesn't need shrinking so badly
07:16:03 <mumra> there's also the think that desktop versions do where the message window becomes a semi-transparent overlay
07:16:21 <mumra> s/message window/message panel/
07:18:38 <mumra> Mu_: i always felt that the NE building should move 2 units to the right so it lines up with the SE architecture, or am i just OCD?
07:22:12 <Mu_> i respect your feelings
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07:24:25 <st_> ...
07:26:48 <Mu_> don't look at me like that
07:27:30 <st_> "I don't think that's a good idea"
07:28:17 <elliott> well personally ive always liked the labyrinth portal vault and felt it should be an integral part of hell
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07:30:27 <Mu_> this is what you get for removing secret doors.
07:31:13 <st_> what we get for removing bad design, more bad design?
07:31:24 <st_> this time it isn't even randomised
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07:33:43 <Mu_> ye i wanted to use the labyrinth builder but idk if that's possible
07:47:29 <Mu_> idk how to do a random maze i end up with like disconnected pockets
07:48:30 <Mu_> although i'm not sure what's the difference between this and any other map with a fixed layout actually
07:49:18 <Mu_> it just happens to be corridors. you can autoexplore and map it and there's loot in some of the 'rooms'
07:49:22 <Mu_> why's that bad design
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07:50:34 <Keskitalo> Hm-hm-hm, subvault-izing urge tickled..
07:50:57 <Keskitalo> I should probably figure out how to debug that one volcano I had trouble subvault-izing.
07:51:03 <Keskitalo> Soooome dayyyy
07:52:10 <alefury> kilobyte: <3 your doom commit message.
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07:53:48 <Ruffell> Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.13-a0-1630-g20840b5 (34)
07:54:31 <edlothiol> mumra: yes, having the message overlay in webtiles would be good
07:54:45 <edlothiol> other than that, the downscaling is intentional
07:55:31 <Keskitalo> Nice, a new European server!
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07:57:16 <alefury> is that one also fully integrated with stat tracking etc? or just clan so far?
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07:59:14 <st_> Mu_: this is different in that it is a maze with the clear purpose of making you find your way through and wasting a lot of time if you can't (and time is relevant here)
07:59:54 <st_> having seen the vault, I know exactly which way to go, every single time
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08:00:02 <st_> rendering it pointless
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08:02:04 <Mu_> oh ok i guess i always assume players are unspoiled
08:02:19 <Mu_> so it'd be better if it had like alternating dead ends??
08:02:30 <st_> they will be spoiled if they play the map...
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08:05:13 <Mu_> i'll try to make it alternate a bit
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08:13:42 <mumra> alefury: yes it's fully tracked, the bot is Lantell
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08:19:53 <mumra> st_: this argument can be applied to a _lot_ of vault design and if we took it to its fullest conclusion we'd have to delete all vaults basically
08:20:07 <mumra> so i don't see how it's a problem in itself
08:20:17 <mumra> but in general, randomising the layout does seem like a good idea
08:20:46 <st_> no we wouldn't have to delete all vaults
08:20:49 <st_> that is nonsense
08:21:36 <st_> and I specified that it was different from a normal vault
08:24:26 <elliott> why is it that every time st_ points out a flaw in vault design the counter is "you just want to remove everything"
08:25:05 <mumra> maybe it's that the arguments used tend to feel quite generic
08:25:09 <Cheibriados> 03Mu 07* 0.13-a0-1631-g7b21ce7: Tweak wizlab_cigotuvi slightly 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 16+ 12-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7b21ce736df6
08:26:31 <elliott> perhaps the problems are quite generic
08:26:40 <elliott> and endemic
08:26:47 <mumra> pandemic?
08:28:22 <Mu_> it's because the original one didn't have any enemies it just made you search for doors and deal with hell effects but idk i thought since this one had loot and monsters it wouldn't matter that it's static but
08:28:38 <Mu_> maybe i can put a maze generator in here instead
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08:28:45 <mumra> basically i don't think the "spoilerness" is a problem
08:29:15 <alefury> i think when you can randomize important parts, you should
08:29:33 <mumra> alefury: sure, but that isn't a core reason to call something "bad design"
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08:30:14 <mumra> however, i think a very large maze in Tar
08:30:25 <mumra> in Tar:7 is probably bad for gameplay reasons
08:30:33 <Mu_> it's not that big
08:30:40 <alefury> also, why?
08:30:51 <alefury> the point is to expose you to hell effects, like the old secret doors
08:30:57 <elliott> "bad design" is an equivalent notion to "bad for gameplay reasons"
08:31:47 <mumra> well i don't think spoilerability of vaults is strictly bad for gameplay
08:32:20 <mumra> although it is non-optimal
08:32:45 <alefury> for most vaults its not a major problem
08:33:03 <alefury> but with this vault, being spoiled defeats the entire point, as st explained
08:33:36 <elliott> there is also the fact that exploring a maze is not fun
08:33:44 <alefury> o
08:33:45 <elliott> even if you like labyrinths i can hardly imagine you agreeing they'd be improved by constant hell effects
08:33:54 <elliott> alefury: o on a hell ending, fantastic idea
08:34:00 <alefury> :)
08:34:04 <alefury> i have the best ideas
08:34:21 <elliott> almost as good as o in a lab, am i right
08:34:29 <alefury> :(
08:34:30 <Mu_> oh i just realise that all of this is moot because scrolls of magic mapping exist
08:34:47 <alefury> not 100% moot, but somewhat moot yes. id definitely use one
08:35:00 <alefury> i tend to do that on hell endings
08:35:08 <Bloax> I thought it was pretty standard-practice to do that on hell endings.
08:35:18 <mumra> i think a simpler maze with wider chambers and randomisation would be more interesting/fun and less ledious
08:35:30 <mumra> but this does look quite tedious to explore manually
08:35:52 <mumra> i'm not sure what the tele traps are for either
08:35:59 <Mu_> there is only 1
08:36:12 <mumra> you're not likely to walk into by accident though
08:36:23 <Mu_> no you'd only walk into it if you pressed o
08:36:28 <mumra> not even then
08:36:35 <mumra> since o doesn't explore right to the end of corridors
08:38:27 <Mu_> guess only shift moving then :P
08:40:13 <Mu_> maybe i should just pull it after all
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08:50:47 <Medar> I guess Jory's description should be tweaked, now that he can spawn normally.
08:51:57 <Medar> "resides in an eerily dark Tower of Gloom", but maybe that's just backstory :)
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09:11:05 <Grunt> Jory's not the stay-at-home-all-day type anyway.
09:11:10 <Grunt> Not anymore, at least! :b
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09:14:43 <geekosaur> couldn't Jory already show up in another vault?
09:16:09 <Grunt> Jory had a chance of showing up in first one, then two Crypt endings.
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09:37:21 <Ruffell> Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.13-a0-1631-g7b21ce7 (34)
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10:44:50 <mumra> so many servers these days
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11:14:27 <mumra> hi dpeg
11:22:03 <dpeg> Hi there!
11:22:03 <Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
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11:22:17 <dpeg> !messages
11:22:18 <Henzell> (1/1) kilobyte said (2d 18h 7m 58s ago): An anti-evo anti-enchantment god idea.  "Keep magic and items separate".  You get penance for using scrolls, branded items, anything magically altered; see magical properties on sight, get your piety from a mass-disenchant invocation, gain large boosts to using mundane items.
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11:22:50 <dpeg> noted... interesting
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11:23:30 <Medar> Isn't an unechanted item with boosts basically an enchanted item.
11:23:57 <dpeg> Medar: I'd say there is a difference between a +3 and an ego.
11:24:26 <dpeg> kilobyte: "god for mundane people"? :)
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11:28:24 <dpeg> Medar: do you think there's hope to develop a consistent theme for misc items?
11:28:31 <dpeg> sorry, Medar <--> mumra
11:28:37 <gammafunk> More banality for the banality god!
11:29:08 <dpeg> Not to forget: Banality of Evil!!
11:29:24 <dpeg> And now bananas for everyone.
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11:43:29 <mumra> dpeg: in a sense, yes; i mean the theme is that they are all very different and unique
11:43:57 <mumra> different to anything else, that is; in terms of effects and mechanics that is
11:44:34 <mumra> i have to go out for a bit
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11:49:28 <dpeg> !tell mumra alright... I'd love to discuss that a bit. All unique is good,always using "finite charges (but can use recharging scroll) or recharges with xp" sound good enough to me to differentiate them from spells.
11:49:29 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let mumra know.
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12:18:14 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1631-g7b21ce7 (34)
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12:35:25 <mumra> !messages
12:35:26 <Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (45m 57s ago): alright... I'd love to discuss that a bit. All unique is good,always using "finite charges (but can use recharging scroll) or recharges with xp" sound good enough to me to differentiate them from spells.
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12:39:30 <dpeg> mumra: I am here :)
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12:40:25 <dpeg> mumra: for example, here is one concern that I have: Crawl has a number of ways of dealing damage at a distance: launchers, spells, wands, rods, decks, some god powers.
12:40:59 <dpeg> Ideally, these would be all different in a way. That's hard. (And, for example, a reason why I cannot see launchers working without ammunition -- then they'd be more spell-like.)
12:42:13 <mumra> yes
12:42:23 <mumra> i find rods too spell-like already
12:43:13 <dpeg> wands are obviously not a problem (finite charges); cards are probably okay
12:43:27 <dpeg> rods... I don't know
12:45:27 <dpeg> So I guess what I want to ask is this: spells are limited by MP cost (and spell slots); make misc items different by having them always be finite uses (including single use if we want for some of them) or have them recharge over time (i.e. by xp), which is much slower than MP and will hopefully be different enough
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12:45:59 <dpeg> I wondered if misc items could be targeting-free but that's probably too much to ask for
12:46:20 <|amethyst> finite use vs recharge over time sound very different; why should they be the same object class?
12:47:45 <|amethyst> for example, though it would require moving several items around, rods could be recharge-over-time, and misc objects finite-use
12:47:50 <|amethyst> s/time/XP/
12:47:54 <mumra> the object class is defined more by the fact that they don't fit into any other object class, rather than by having consistent mechanics
12:48:01 <dpeg> |amethyst: because we have wands (I treat them as misc items) and the new shiny toys
12:48:11 <dpeg> mumra: yes, I know, and I am trying to change that :)
12:49:02 <mumra> i quite like the fact that there are lots of ways to use them but i realise this is bad from a viewpoint of consistency/usability/complexity/etc. :)
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12:49:25 <mumra> but what really ties all the objects together is that they are evocations-based
12:50:15 <|amethyst> should runes move to 0 ?
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12:50:44 <dpeg> |amethyst: I've never seen that proposal before, but it makes a whole lot of sense! +1
12:51:16 <|amethyst> either that, or evoke a rune to use it up and genocide the whole branch :P
12:51:27 <dpeg> mumra: yes, Evoc-based is crucial, of course (just like ranged combat has the advantage that you only need to train a single skill)
12:52:38 <mumra> i can certainly conceive more or all of the items working in some fashion without targetting
12:53:11 <mumra> s/more/most/
12:54:20 <dpeg> mumra: use the nearest appropriate element for the new elemental ones?
12:54:41 <|amethyst> they don't use elements they way they used to
12:54:42 <mumra> dpeg: for the stone of tremors, simply require that you stand next to a wall
12:54:42 <gammafunk> mumra: But never double-targetting? :)
12:54:49 <|amethyst> well, the stone does
12:55:41 <mumra> the others could be alterated to provide area effects without needing a target, but i don't know if they'd be as good
12:55:47 <mumra> DracoOmega would have to comment on this
12:56:10 <mumra> gammafunk: i am generally favouring the direction of more simplicity and less interface :P
12:56:33 <gammafunk> yeah, it's a pretty reasonable standpoint
12:56:36 <dpeg> gammafunk: the less targeting, the better. Always!
12:56:55 <mumra> dpeg: i don't know if you saw my comment on the wiki but i realised i didn't like the dual-use items proposal for this reason
12:57:04 <gammafunk> I won't bring up triple targeting then.  It's not like going to a triple sword at all
12:57:06 <dpeg> Even with mouse targeting, two targets are too much.
12:57:34 <dpeg> mumra: ah, I see! I intended them to be used in the two ways by 'v' vs 'w'.
12:57:41 <dpeg> So no prompts.
12:57:48 <mumra> yeah, but adding another key to learn
12:58:23 <mumra> oh right you mean by wielding
12:58:44 <mumra> which also gets a bit fiddly (and incidentally penalises Ash followers for no obvious reason)
12:59:32 <mumra> also i think it's hard coming up with one-use effects which are interesting and powerful enough to be worth doing
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12:59:42 <mumra> especially now the standard effects of some items are so good anyway
12:59:48 <Eronarn> making misc items work like tome totems could be ineresting
13:00:22 <Eronarn> must be worn to use, infinite use, recharge delay, using or unequipping resets your recharge timer
13:00:31 <Eronarn> wearing them can have passive effects in addition to active effects
13:01:16 <mumra> well, this is somewhat like something i suggested for gammafunk's jumping boot
13:01:20 <mumra> s/somewhat/exactly/
13:01:35 <Eronarn> mumra: the difference is that tome's totems have their own slot
13:01:51 <gammafunk> I do think the XP recharge idea could be a neat way to make the attack nice
13:02:05 <Eronarn> so you aren't penalized for using one, and everyone wants to use one, but certain characters are better at using certain ones than others
13:02:06 <gammafunk> I'm just not sure if it's as good of a fit as a low-key ability
13:02:55 <gammafunk> The attack portion of jump-attack *is* pretty underwhelming
13:03:57 <mumra> Eronarn: i don't really like the idea of being limited to only one item, it's fun to have a few and use them appropriately in different situations
13:04:10 <mumra> but maybe this could work for rods, i'm not sure
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13:04:59 <gammafunk> I guess having an outright 'charge' on an armor brand or rate property is a bit silly
13:05:08 <gammafunk> *arte property
13:05:23 <gammafunk> but an XP charge is pretty reasonable
13:08:14 <mumra> dpeg: XP recharge certainly seems to be the best-working mechanic for infinite use items right now
13:10:15 <mumra> but this would very much change how rods are used
13:10:56 <dpeg> mumra: I agree!
13:12:41 <mumra> does disc of storms need changing? it seems problematic that it can be infinitely used without any recharge
13:12:55 <mumra> it's limited naturally by self-damage
13:15:05 <mumra> but with relec you can spam it a huge amount
13:15:30 <dpeg> the new recharge-by-xp mechanic is better than one-off use, simply because it's (a) implemented and (b) proven to work.
13:15:39 <dpeg> I do think there are some interesting one-off powers out there.
13:16:22 <mumra> i kind of think (of the ones i've seen at least) they'd be fine as separate items or card effects
13:16:35 <dpeg> sure
13:17:19 <dpeg> cards are always strange... I have a feeling that Nemelex (and hence cards) wouldn't have been accepted if the god didn't exist already
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13:23:21 <Keskitalo> (I had at one point a big idea for evocations that everything should have charges --- but this "charging with xp" business sounds really really good)
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13:25:51 <mumra> yeah it works extremely well
13:26:31 <dpeg> Brogue has this too, in "charms" (Brogue can afford to use time).
13:26:37 <dpeg> Keskitalo: Hi! All is well?
13:27:13 <Eronarn> mumra: you can use more than one - just if you swap, it takes a re-recharge
13:27:25 <Eronarn> so you have to commit to some degree within an individual fight
13:27:35 <Keskitalo> Hello David! Quite so, thank you! If only I had time to contribute to Crawl, but can't complain. :)
13:27:40 <mumra> the limited and unknown charges of box of beasts is good as well; you really have to think about when to use it and how many to use
13:27:46 <mumra> (in the new design of course)
13:27:51 <Keskitalo> dpeg: How are you?
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13:29:22 <mumra> Eronarn: i think it's better to have tactical choices during fights, than one option available which you had to decide prior to the fight
13:29:43 <Keskitalo> I'm busy taking care of the toddler, who seems to be quite into video games (and video game music), and trying to finish my studies.. I should start writing my master's thesis about the UP team project next month.
13:31:08 <Keskitalo> Been thinking about Crawl music, hoping I can make some time for it.
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13:31:47 <Keskitalo> The new box of beasts, the chimeira stuff, sounds really really fun.
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13:33:55 <mumra> yeah, it's highly entertaining :) i should probably merge it soon, it's very much finished aside from being represented properly in tiles
13:35:14 <mumra> i did kinda like the tavern suggestion that it gets recharged as you kill things; so the chimera is actually made from parts of beasts you've killed
13:36:37 <gammafunk> I wonder if there are other good recharge mechanics.  Recharge as you explore?
13:36:46 <gammafunk> Might be neat for some diviniations-like item
13:38:26 <mumra> we discussed that the other day
13:38:37 <mumra> (as a possible rod recharge method)
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13:38:54 <mumra> but it basically turns unexplored space into a resource which you might want to save for later
13:38:59 <mumra> it's a bit weird
13:39:46 <gammafunk> yeah, that's true
13:39:50 <mumra> it also means you might not be able to recharge things on the orb run
13:39:57 <mumra> if you've efficiently cleared the whole dungeon
13:40:21 <Keskitalo> mumra: That sounds like it would scale it potentially nicely, early on you get wimpier creatures because you only killed early monsters, and later on you get tougher stuff thanks to having killed them
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13:40:46 <Eronarn> recharge a bit with the first of each species you kill
13:40:53 <Eronarn> treat each & as unique
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13:43:23 <mumra> Keskitalo: yeah it's nicely balanced, and it's similar to what i'm thinking for the haunted hand item i wrote about in c-r-d
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13:44:22 <mumra> although, the list of beasts currently in use is quite balanced anyway, it scales with evo currently, but i'm thinking about factoring dungeon depth in as well
13:46:34 <mumra> (i borrowed the new mon-pick system to implement the beast scaling)
13:47:09 <mumra> (i was quite pleased with this...)
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13:50:28 <mumra> wow, djinni can spam disc of storms like all day
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14:32:06 <gammafunk> That's HEIE no. 248 gone.  Some say I shouldn't speed run HEIE, but those people lack vision
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14:43:39 <mumra> oh, someone should post about Medar in the new devteam member thread or something
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14:53:01 <gammafunk> I wonder if there's a better way to delete a ton of remote branches aside from a shell for loop like I just did
14:53:09 <gammafunk> maybe you can do multiple in one command
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15:01:04 <mumra> dpeg: i feel that rods should at least sometimes fail; it seems bad that they're so reliable
15:02:37 <mumra> dpeg: i was also pondering if Dex should have an effect on some evokable items, e.g. improving failure rates, since it makes sense that dextrous people would be better at operating complicated gadgets
15:03:50 <mumra> dpeg: also for rods i thought of a "jamming" mechanic; i.e. the rod gets stuck and can't fire
15:04:11 <mumra> it takes several turns to unjam, and hitting things with it has a chance to unjam it quicker :P
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15:18:29 <gammafunk> Shouldn't the rod fail rate mostly depend on evocations?
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15:20:29 <mumra> yes
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15:31:12 <tenofswords> ontoclasm, I've found a slight problem with some recent experiments
15:33:22 <dpeg> back
15:34:03 <ontoclasm> ?
15:34:24 <ontoclasm> what kind of... experiments?
15:34:45 <ontoclasm> am i going to have to go grave-robbing again
15:35:11 <tenofswords> maybe for another pair of eyes
15:35:14 <tenofswords> http://pasteboard.co/oUfh5fz.png
15:35:47 <tenofswords> (clearly I need _another_ redraw just to be able to actually put variety into ice caves)
15:36:12 <dpeg> Keskitalo: hope you're still in... I'm fine, as is my wife; kids grow up (6 and 10 now!). There is some hope that random gods move on, and mumra has demigods on his list!!! Now only to find someone for the gold god, and Lugonu altar desecration :)
15:37:50 <dpeg> Keskitalo: ah, video game music <3 <3 <3
15:38:32 <ontoclasm> tenofswords: sorry, i'm not seeing what you're talking about
15:38:35 <ontoclasm> the fire clouds?
15:38:49 <Keskitalo> Gods on the agenda!
15:38:55 <tenofswords> the blizzard demon looks horrible on this flooring
15:39:00 <ontoclasm> oh
15:39:02 <ontoclasm> well
15:39:10 <Keskitalo> I'm unable to let go, unlike some respectable folks!
15:39:10 <ontoclasm> blizz demons sort of look horrible everywhere >.>
15:39:20 <ontoclasm> but i'll take a look
15:39:25 <tenofswords> they don't look too bad on dark pan floors
15:39:40 <Keskitalo> Should add blizzard demons to ice caves, if anyone wants to do that it would be swell.
15:39:46 <gammafunk> dpeg: altar desecration….I like the sound of that
15:39:48 <ontoclasm> i'm doing this atm: http://fourjobfiesta.com
15:40:01 <tenofswords> yes that was what I was doing with this experiment, alongside more varied simulacra and white draconians
15:40:45 <dpeg> mumra, Keskitalo: BoB chimeiras from killed monsters sounds cool, but I should mention that the gameplay will be a bit like that of Yredelmnul or necromancers: pick targets smartly, turn into zombies etc.
15:41:17 <tenofswords> there are at least differing values of what makes a target good between all three
15:41:50 <gammafunk> ontoclasm: I do love the blizzard demon tile, though.  It's my favorite T-2 demon tile
15:42:28 <dpeg> mumra: re: Dex on Evocables: the cool thing about Int for Spc is that it affects something noticeably different from what you're skills do, i.e. not (just) success and power but spell hunger. What if Dex+Evoc determined recharging time, just like Int+Spc determine spell hunger?
15:42:30 <tenofswords> monsters with breath weapons or batty movement for chimera; sturdy spellcasters for enslave soul; large hulks with high melee damage for zombies
15:42:48 <ontoclasm> oh, i do like the tile, but it could be cleaned up a bit
15:43:09 <ontoclasm> the reason it's hard to see against white floor is that it butts up against the sides and thus loses its outline
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15:44:02 <dpeg> Keskitalo: why to let go? We're the pensioners of DCSS... old grumpy men stroking their beards and telling those whippersnappers how we used to store Crawl games on magnet tapes.
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15:45:16 <mumra> dpeg: as proposed (and as with the hand item) there is a low chance for each monster you kill to actually get used as a charge
15:45:30 <mumra> so it's hard to prioritise targets
15:45:42 <mumra> since often the things you want won't get used anyway
15:46:03 <tenofswords> box of beasts, astoundingly powerful in zot
15:46:14 <mumra> yes
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15:46:27 <mumra> a lot less so after i nerfed my first design quite a bit :)
15:47:13 <tenofswords> if only there were later batty things besides harpies
15:47:54 <mumra> you can still get batty monsters at high evo
15:48:07 <tenofswords> oh
15:48:08 <mumra> the first monster will always be of the highest tier
15:48:20 <mumra> but the second and third monsters can randomly be taken from lower tiers
15:48:39 <mumra> so you could get a dragon-bat-foo
15:48:53 <dpeg> mumra: what I am trying to say is that the BoB might be better off with hand-picked components (especially for the special attributes).
15:49:04 <mumra> i think ravens have batty movement as well, and they're in the higher tiers
15:49:27 <|amethyst> dpeg:  hand-picked components sound like an interface burden
15:49:37 <DracoOmega> They're not batty, no
15:49:44 <|amethyst> dpeg:  even if it is "last 3 monsters you killed" or something with no extra "interface" per se
15:50:14 <Keskitalo> dpeg: I recently read Rebel Code, a history of open source (from 2001), Richard Stallman used to get income by selling emacs on tape
15:50:16 <dpeg> |amethyst: by "hand-picked" I mean what mumra has now!
15:50:20 <mumra> i briefly entertained the notion of using monsters that you butcher
15:50:22 <Keskitalo> (very inspiring book btw)
15:50:26 <|amethyst> dpeg:  ohh
15:50:27 <dpeg> Instead of "use last killed monsters as components"
15:50:36 <|amethyst> dpeg:  I thought you meant hand-picked by the player
15:50:37 <SamB> |amethyst: rather than allowing ANY monster, I think
15:50:39 <mumra> dpeg: that sounds like the opposite of hand-picked :P
15:50:44 <dpeg> |amethyst: no way!!! :)
15:50:49 <dpeg> sorry for confusion
15:50:54 <mumra> hehe
15:51:27 <mumra> you mean hand-picked as in from the list of beasts hand-picked by me ;)
15:51:31 <dpeg> back in a bit
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15:53:28 <|amethyst> joosa:  btw, is there anything holding back rhf from being made official again?  If not, let greensnark and me know the URLs for ttyrecs, morgues, logfiles, and milestones, and we can get it in sequell and the CAO scoring scripts respectively
15:54:37 <joosa> |amethyst: not really, other than disk space
15:55:07 <|amethyst> joosa:  are you compressing your ttyrecs?
15:55:26 <joosa> Which reminds, me, I have to start compressing the ttyrecs!
15:55:46 <|amethyst> I do:  */30 * * * * nice -n 10 ionice -c 3 sudo /home/crawl-dev/dgamelaunch-config/bin/dgl compress-ttyrecs
15:56:06 <joosa> |amethyst: Anyway, it should all be there http://rl.heh.fi/
15:56:09 <|amethyst> there's also an apache rule you need so that footv doesn't barf when the ttyrec gets compressed
15:56:37 <|amethyst> It's in step 12.5 of http://dobrazupa.org/setting-up-dgamelaunch-and-webtiles
15:56:58 <|amethyst> joosa:  there's also a clean-trunks script that helps somewhat
15:57:06 <|amethyst> joosa:  since each trunk version is like 100MB
15:57:16 <|amethyst> http://dobrazupa.org/stuff/clean-trunks
15:58:47 <mumra> dpeg: using dex for recharge (for rods or other stuff as well?) kind of implies that the player is performing some action to recharge them
15:58:52 <tenofswords> mumra, some further lua aide since I am horrible with this syntax?
15:59:00 <|amethyst> mumra:  they all have cranks!
15:59:14 <mumra> |amethyst: well this leads onto my other idea about rod recharge
15:59:52 <mumra> which is that they are recharged manually by the character. obviously we'd do this automatically as a convenience when resting
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16:00:21 <mumra> but only 1 rod charges at a time, and not while you're e.g. kiting a monster
16:00:32 <mumra> so if you want to recharge mid-combat you have to rest for some turns
16:00:55 <|amethyst> what about exploring?
16:01:10 <|amethyst> I guess that involves distinguishing between exploring and kiting
16:01:13 <mumra> autoexplore could just automatically wait for them to recharge
16:01:38 <|amethyst> not so sure about that... I think it would be better to ignore them
16:01:43 <|amethyst> the same way it ignores MP/HP
16:01:50 <|amethyst> though that could be tunable with an option
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16:02:04 <mumra> it'd be more annoying if you explored and forgot to recharge them though
16:02:19 <mumra> and like this the recharge rate could conceivably be faster than at present
16:02:53 <Keskitalo> It would be cool if high-dex and high-int evokers were noticeably different from each other, yeh.
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16:03:33 <|amethyst> mumra:  yeah, I guess the difference is that MP/HP do recharge while exploring
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16:06:08 <joosa> |amethyst: Well then, I think it's ready enough
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16:06:20 <joosa> Just set up cron jobs for updating and compressing
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16:07:41 <|amethyst> !tell greensnark and another server: joosa has brought rl.heh.fi back.  URLs should be pretty similar to CLAN's (see http://rl.heh.fi/), but it only has trunk and 0.12
16:07:42 <Henzell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let greensnark know.
16:07:49 <|amethyst> !tell greensnark bot is Ruffell
16:07:50 <Henzell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let greensnark know.
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16:08:45 <|amethyst> joosa:  what's the ssh username (and password if any?)
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16:09:01 <joosa> User: rl, no password
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16:11:49 <|amethyst> Do you want to update ??rhf or should I?
16:11:56 <|amethyst> ??rhf
16:11:57 <Henzell> rhf[1/1]: Used to be a Finnish server. Now dead. ssh rl@rl.heh.fi.
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16:12:12 <joosa> I made the old site and ttyrecs and logs available on http://old.rl.heh.fi/
16:12:31 <joosa> if the bots ever want to download some legacy recordings
16:12:40 <|amethyst> are these on separate machines?
16:12:42 <Zannick> !learn edit rhf[1] s/Now dead/Still is, but used to be, too/
16:12:43 <Henzell> rhf[1/1]: Used to be a Finnish server. Still is, but used to be, too. ssh rl@rl.heh.fi.
16:12:57 <|amethyst> ♥ Mitch Hedberg
16:13:02 <joosa> Same machine, I'm just fooling around with virtualhosts
16:13:10 <|amethyst> joosa:  I think it would make sense to merge them
16:13:17 <|amethyst> joosa:  the directories I mean
16:13:31 <joosa> |amethyst: Yeah, that shouldn't be too complicated
16:13:37 <|amethyst> joosa:  would be easier on the bots: we wouldn't have to distinguish between old rhf and new rhf
16:13:45 <|amethyst> cool
16:14:06 <joosa> Or with the ttyrecs it is, I had my own funky naming scheme
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16:14:20 <|amethyst> hmm
16:14:24 <DracoOmega> mumra: I tried building with VS2010 today, by the way. It doesn't work =/
16:14:26 <joosa> Sigh :P
16:14:42 <mumra> DracoOmega: :(
16:14:44 <DracoOmega> mumra: With numerous compilation errors that I am not really sure what to do with
16:14:49 <joosa> Logs are easy enough to move/merge
16:15:15 <DracoOmega> mumra: Including such sweeping statements as "There is no context in which this conversion is possible"
16:15:15 <|amethyst> joosa:  I *think* the bots expect ttyrecs to be named with the date
16:15:25 <DracoOmega> Though clearly there is, since OTHER things can compile it just fine :P
16:15:36 <mumra> hmm, was this using the normal crawl-ref.sln?
16:15:59 <joosa> |amethyst: IIRC greensnark made Henzell support them as is, I didn't ask him to do so, he's a great guy
16:16:10 <DracoOmega> I think so?
16:16:15 <mumra> and i wonder if it's using the vcproj or vcxproj (noe of those is drastically out of date)
16:16:23 <mumra> s/noe/one/
16:16:26 <DracoOmega> Oh, hmmm... which?
16:16:26 <|amethyst> joosa:  hm... he might have a suggestion for what to do about merging then
16:16:35 <joosa> Maybe
16:16:59 <mumra> DracoOmega: the vcproj are out of date
16:17:04 <DracoOmega> mumra: I just tried opening the sln directly (I opened something else last time that did SEEM to work in multiple ways other than compiling), and it just tells me that it's created in a newer version and cannot be opened
16:17:14 <DracoOmega> I opened the vcxproj originally
16:17:26 <mumra> ah ok
16:17:47 <mumra> you could try creating a new empty solution and adding the projects to it
16:18:15 <DracoOmega> I had to set the platform toolkit to an older version, too
16:18:20 <DracoOmega> I don't know if that might have somehow broken it
16:18:34 <joosa> The ttyrec filenames are just different from what dgamelaunch did/does, they're not useless per se
16:18:36 <DracoOmega> (But like, it wasn't working otherwise anyway)
16:18:51 <mumra> do you have perl installed as well?
16:18:53 <joosa> |amethyst: Sure it's possible to convert the filenames
16:19:33 <mumra> DracoOmega: i don't understand much at all about the innards of the build process to be honest :/
16:19:48 <joosa> FR: It would be neat if characters with additional unarmed attacks wouldn't try bashing with a bow
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16:20:10 <DracoOmega> mumra: Well, in this case it seemed to be specific syntax that it was choking on
16:20:16 <DracoOmega> mumra: When it attempted to compile specific files
16:20:18 <|amethyst> well, bashing with a bow plus auxes is better than just auxes, right? :)
16:20:26 <joosa> Heh, I guess so
16:20:36 <tenofswords> just get some slaying and
16:20:50 <joosa> And the confirmation didn't really get in the way now that I have a cursed bow with Ash
16:20:57 <joosa> It only asked once
16:21:03 <|amethyst> joosa:  well, if it supports your old filenames, and they do carry more information, I don't see much reason to strip that info
16:22:08 <joosa> |amethyst: I guess not
16:22:09 <|amethyst> joosa:  I guess old rhf used custom infrastructure instead of dgamelaunch?
16:22:10 <mumra> DracoOmega: since you didn't have the tilegen project, the tile includes wouldn't have been generated, that would certainly make compilation fail all over the place
16:22:28 <DracoOmega> mumra: Well, this was unrelated to tiles (it hadn't gotten that far)
16:22:42 <joosa> |amethyst: Yeah, I made my own. It was a fun experiment
16:22:50 <|amethyst> !tell greensnark old rhf stuff is at http://old.rl.heh.fi/ --- maybe the current "rhf" server in the configs/db could be renamed to "oldrhf"?
16:22:51 <Henzell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let greensnark know.
16:23:41 <|amethyst> joosa:  neat
16:24:28 <dpeg> back
16:24:38 <|amethyst> joosa:  at some point I need to upgrade dgamelaunch proper, but we have so many local patches I've been putting it off for nearly a year
16:24:41 <joosa> Now I have better ideas for it, so maybe I'll start making a new one just for fun again :)
16:24:56 <|amethyst> joosa:  webtiles frontend for ascii games
16:25:13 <|amethyst> joosa:  that way I could offer ATC to webtiles players
16:25:17 <|amethyst> :)
16:25:30 <dpeg> mumra: yes, of course (re: Dex for recharge) -- if we think the gameplay is worth it, it'll be easy to come up with fitting flavour
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16:29:13 <|amethyst> joosa:  I do think we (somebody) should get one server with a lot of disk and not much else and use it for ttyrec and morgue archival
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16:30:17 <joosa> |amethyst: Hm, not a bad idea
16:30:25 <SamB> presumably good connectivity as well ;-)
16:30:34 <|amethyst> S3 would probably work
16:31:33 <|amethyst> $100/mon for a terabyte of storage (which would cover all existing saves) in standard storage
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16:32:15 <|amethyst> s/saves/ttyrecs/
16:33:04 <|amethyst> and $1 each for 2.5 million GET requests and 200,000 PUTs
16:35:08 <|amethyst> hm, bandwidth costs are kind of high though
16:35:48 <|amethyst> $120/TB for the first 10 TB
16:36:11 <|amethyst> but in is free
16:36:57 <|amethyst> still, sounds much more reasonably priced than EC2 for a server did
16:37:19 <tenofswords> cruel_ice = "harpy simulacrum w:2 / anaconda simulacrum w:3 / " .. "dire elephant simulacrum w:2 / hydra simulacrum w:3 / " .. "ettin simulacrum w:1 / iron troll simulacrum w:2 / " .. "golden dragon simulacrum w:1 / phoenix simulacrum w:1"
16:37:36 <tenofswords> are there going to be objections to me re-using a joke as such in a slightly more easily seen capacity
16:37:40 <tenofswords> (last entry)
16:38:03 <DracoOmega> Well, phoenixes should probably do actual damage
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16:38:58 <tenofswords> they could at least not be weaker than harpies, yes
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16:57:32 <gammafunk> I've been thinking of forest vaults, and something that comes to mind is a "yred foothold" vault.  I assume the forest creatures would have yred and tend to worship fedhas
16:57:37 <gammafunk> *hate yred
16:58:25 <tenofswords> there is probably something in emphasizing the branch roulette's themes of free life and free death
16:58:51 <|amethyst> we'd need a corresponding fedhas vault in crypt :)
16:59:06 <tenofswords> !vault fedhas_prevails
16:59:08 <Henzell> Lines pasted to http://pastie.org/8049922
16:59:19 <tenofswords> limited omniscience
16:59:21 <gammafunk> aha, precedence
16:59:45 <tenofswords> (I will hurt grunt for not tagging that with extra when he tagged so many of nicolae-'s vaults with extra in that commit)
16:59:46 <|amethyst> that's not much of a foothold :)
16:59:58 <tenofswords> a bit of a jab, really
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17:00:33 <gammafunk> well a vault where fedhas prevails more wouldn't hurt
17:01:17 <DracoOmega> Are the different versions of the branch roulette alternate realities where the other team won? :P
17:01:18 <tenofswords> what was the much worse vault on these theme
17:01:39 <|amethyst> DracoOmega:  ever play Magic?
17:01:52 <tenofswords> !vault fedhas_altar_decomposition
17:01:55 <Henzell> Lines pasted to http://pastie.org/8049931
17:01:55 <|amethyst> DracoOmega:  it's like Lorwyn
17:01:59 <DracoOmega> Ha
17:02:06 <tenofswords> thank goodness I just made some zombies
17:02:39 <tenofswords> if there were said wars then what does this mean for tomb appearing in forest
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17:03:01 <|amethyst> tenofswords:  the wars happened when tomb "leaked" briefly
17:03:02 <DracoOmega> That place is a lot more... ancient than this >.>
17:03:19 <|amethyst> releasing "crypt" upon the forst
17:03:26 <tenofswords> mmmmm
17:03:31 <|amethyst> s/rst/rest/
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17:03:54 <|amethyst> What a terrible night to have a curse!
17:04:40 <gammafunk> I'm waiting for a vault with a vampire that has the lines "What is a man?!  A miserable pile of secrets!"
17:04:43 <tenofswords> the player is the morning sun, come to vanquish this horrible night
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17:05:13 <DracoOmega> Jory needs new speech, right? :P
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17:06:50 <gammafunk> !tell grunt New Jory speech: "What is a man?!  A miserable pile of secrets!"
17:06:51 <Henzell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let grunt know.
17:06:52 <|amethyst> it would be pretty neat if getting the golden rune "lifted the curse" on crypt or forest, even if that were only by changing the tiles
17:07:11 <|amethyst> (and colours)
17:08:21 <gammafunk> I thought that a new 'animated' branch would be a nice tomb alternative for forest.  But maybe a new branch is too ambitious
17:08:30 <dpeg> gammafunk: is that a citation? If so, please give source. Always cool to add it as a comment to speech line.
17:08:40 <DracoOmega> Wait for the first new branch to be settled, methinks :P
17:08:58 <dpeg> |amethyst: yes. This reminds me that dtsund has some rune effects that are good to use.
17:09:29 <tenofswords> the only one I remember is the shoals rune slowing amped-up tides
17:09:34 <dpeg> (Really minor stuff, of course. I think, slimy rune ==> walls stop being acidic etc.)
17:09:52 <gammafunk> dpeg: it's pretty infamous bad dialogue from castlevania SOTN: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMTizJemHO8
17:10:37 <tenofswords> I'd prefer something a little less on the nose for dialogue
17:10:44 <dpeg> !tell grunt No idea why everyone sends the Jory speech to you, but gammafunk's "What is a man?!" line seems to come from Castlevania.
17:10:45 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let grunt know.
17:11:00 <dpeg> tenofswords: as long as the line works on its own, everything is alright. This one is fine, imo.
17:11:14 <tenofswords> well he made the mantis ticket for donald speech for... newabyss, newvaults, and forest
17:11:20 <|amethyst> I don't like quoting video games, particularly active franchises
17:11:23 <gammafunk> dpeg: I told grunt because of his tavern thread and because he quotes from those lines a lot for comedic effect
17:11:33 <dpeg> yes, it's cool
17:11:39 <tenofswords> ...no he didn't, it was |amethyst
17:11:44 <tenofswords> bah
17:11:46 <|amethyst> yeah :)
17:12:17 <|amethyst> grunt made the only submission so far
17:12:27 <dpeg> |amethyst: Try to read the lines without knowing the origin.
17:13:17 <gammafunk> It would certainly get a laugh among players, but it's a bit uncreative I suppose to lift lines from other games
17:13:34 <DracoOmega> I think him just saying "Have at you!" would be subtle enough
17:13:34 <|amethyst> dpeg:  well, the problem is that too many players would know the origin
17:13:39 <DracoOmega> Or something like that
17:13:44 <|amethyst> dpeg:  because gamers play lots of games :)
17:13:50 <DracoOmega> Since you could chuckle if you knew it, but it wouldn't sound odd if you didn't
17:13:57 <tenofswords> "Some guys announced my presence - and announced that I was currently deaf. I hate that."
17:14:09 <tenofswords> not enough flow, bah
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17:14:14 <dpeg> |amethyst: we're also citing books and classics, why should it matter? In five years, Crawl will still be played, the games will be mostly forgotten ... so who cares? :)
17:14:47 <DracoOmega> I am fairly sure that line is more widely known than Crawl is
17:14:57 <dpeg> DracoOmega: hm, I really like the "miserable pile of excuses" line :)
17:15:21 <DracoOmega> It was 'miserable pile of secrets', no?
17:15:30 <gammafunk> Well if it ever gets added, we'll need a holy unique that tells any vampire player "Die monster! You don't belong in this world!"
17:15:35 <dpeg> w/e
17:16:32 <dpeg> fwiw, when I called for Singing Sword lines, I got some that were inspired by some game, and I added them because I liked them (forgot what game it was, but the reference is present)
17:17:24 <|amethyst> I do like singing sword :)
17:17:45 <gammafunk> singing sword + gong shield is the ultimate win combo
17:18:01 <ontoclasm> fr jory throws a glass of wine at you that insta-kills you
17:18:14 <dpeg> gammafunk: hehe, the Sword should compliment the player for the good shield selection
17:18:16 <gammafunk> ontoclasm: I was wondering how that could be fit in
17:18:24 <tenofswords> fr werewolves will drop the moon on yo
17:18:25 <tenofswords> wait
17:18:26 <gammafunk> dpeg: that's a really good idea
17:18:30 <tenofswords> forget I said anything
17:20:03 <|amethyst> "When you've found that Orb you're looking for, maybe I'll hire Gong here as my drummer."
17:20:43 <dpeg> |amethyst: as I see it, the Sword regards the player as it's ... tool (horse/carrier/whatever)
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18:38:39 <mumra> ??antimagic
18:38:39 <Henzell> antimagic[1/3]: A weapon brand added in 0.8. Dealing damage with it makes monsters sometimes lose a turn when they try to cast spells. Wielding it reduces max mp by around 2/3, getting hit by it depletes mp. Works on everything that has non-divine spells, including demons, orbs of fire, electric golems, etc.
18:39:00 <mumra> ??antimagic[2]
18:39:00 <Henzell> antimagic[2/3]: good
18:39:04 <mumra> ??antimagic[3]
18:39:04 <Henzell> antimagic[3/3]: Miscast chance for monsters increases based on damage dealt (with the weapon), decreasing every turn.
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18:39:24 <mumra> Player chance to fail looks like this:
18:39:25 <mumra> if (allow_fail && you.duration[DUR_ANTIMAGIC]
18:39:25 <mumra> && x_chance_in_y(DUR_ANTIMAGIC / 3, you.hp_max))
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18:39:45 <tenofswords> isn't player chance only for, uh, djinn
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18:40:24 <DracoOmega> Pretty sure
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18:40:43 <DracoOmega> (Though I can see applications for something which can use this more generally)
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18:41:37 <mumra> can non-djinn not get DUR_ANTIMAGIC?
18:41:37 <Grunt> !tell dpeg "Die, monster! You don't belong in this world!"
18:41:38 <Henzell> Grunt: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
18:41:49 <mumra> because otherwise i don't see anything in the code making this Djinn-only
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18:42:04 <Grunt> (be right back <_<)
18:42:06 <mumra> also, it seems weird that DUR_ANTIMAGIC is used as a number
18:42:16 <mumra> in a probability
18:42:27 <mumra> would cause unexpected behaviour if the enums were reordered
18:43:23 <DracoOmega> Well, I am pretty sure lots of things go wrong if enchantment enums are reordered
18:43:29 <DracoOmega> Since suddenly all players have different enchantments
18:43:34 <DracoOmega> (Without compatability code, I mean)
18:43:54 <mumra> yes, but it's unexpected that a probability is dependent on the value of an enum
18:44:05 <DracoOmega> And now, I am fairly sure there is no way for non-djinn to get DUR_ANTIMAGIC. They just lose mp. But djinn get that from mp drainers instead of losing a chunk more extra EP from them
18:44:22 <DracoOmega> Oh, oops, I misread that as probably what it was MEANT to be, and not what it is
18:44:30 <mumra> it looks like it should be: x_chance_in_y(you.duration[DUR_ANTIMAGIC] / 3, you.hp_max))
18:44:32 <tenofswords> clearly DUR_ANTIMAGIC should be a bit for trog wrath or something
18:44:38 <DracoOmega> mumra: Yes, I actually read it that way
18:44:45 <DracoOmega> mumra: And even did some math to see how the percentages work out!
18:44:50 <mumra> haha
18:45:04 <DracoOmega> I suspect what this means at present is that antimagic is super nasty
18:45:31 <DracoOmega> Oh, maybe not
18:45:59 <DracoOmega> But yeah, clearly not what is intended
18:47:54 <Cheibriados> 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-1632-g3cf9222: Fix a probability using enum's value rather than duration value 10(73 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3cf9222d3091
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18:53:50 <tenofswords> bloody freaking lua basics
18:53:55 <tenofswords> : item("cap" .. coldres .. " / cloak " .. coldres .. " / shield " .. coldres ..
18:53:58 <tenofswords> :   " / large shield " .. coldres .. " / animal skin " .. coldres .. " nothing w:60")
18:54:20 <tenofswords> : ')' expected (to close '( at line 22) near 'item'
18:54:25 <mumra> tenofswords: oh yeah were you asking me about something earlier? sorry i got distracted
18:54:49 <tenofswords> well, I managed to finagle lua to do what I wanted
18:55:02 <tenofswords> and now I'm just running into tiny weird syntax things
18:55:49 <mumra> lua concatenation syntax is stupid
18:56:16 <mumra> "why type one character when you could type two?!"
18:56:39 <tenofswords> not sure enough
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18:58:35 <SamB> I think that needs {{{ }}}
18:58:41 <SamB> or was that {{ }}
18:59:18 <tenofswords> am tempted to finished constantly identifying egos in ice caves and then ask just you guys to check it over at specific points
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19:09:34 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
19:09:34 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Check out new European server at ??clan! | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ??cszo, ??clan, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious.
19:09:41 <mumra> DracoOmega: or overlay a face image or _something_
19:09:52 <tenofswords> icon
19:09:58 <tenofswords> can you put icons on features
19:10:00 <ontoclasm> angry tree face
19:10:20 <tenofswords> put the sensed_monster_nasty tile ontop of all trees
19:11:17 <Grunt> The tree goes berserk!
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19:12:00 <tenofswords> The druid gestures at the tree. The tree seems to speed up.
19:12:14 <DracoOmega> mumra: Well, at present you could just use a status light on the player's display, since it affects the entire floor at once
19:12:16 <tenofswords> whoops forgot sprigganitude
19:12:21 <DracoOmega> mumra: So it's not like some trees are safe and others aren't
19:15:35 <tenofswords> oh thank goodness I only have one vault header to finish
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19:18:33 <gammafunk> In my donald speech submission, I introduces the idea that he likes snozzcucumbers (as opposed to fruit)
19:18:54 <gammafunk> *introduced
19:19:45 <tenofswords> while it's in character as a player I don't think it's as suiting for an "adventurer" to outright say things like "Apparently not a single thing here thought about what happens when you set a tree on fire".
19:19:53 <tenofswords> or "More monsters with hooves that shoot things at you. How creative."
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19:20:27 <SamB> the narrator knows it's a game
19:20:30 <tenofswords> (at least the fire will be addressed... eventually!)
19:20:31 <gammafunk> He has a couple lines in the same vein already
19:21:05 <gammafunk> I love his lines where he insults the game or the branch
19:21:13 <gammafunk> It's more insulting the branch, really
19:21:25 <tenofswords> well yes but it's not as direct
19:22:15 <SamB> FR: altar to the implementors
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19:22:27 <gammafunk> We have lines like ""I don't get what's so special about the number twenty-seven."
19:22:50 <Grunt> !send SamB a grue
19:22:51 <Henzell> Sending a grue to SamB.
19:23:04 <SamB> but it's not dark
19:23:25 <nicolae-> well you can't send a grue when it's dark, it'll eat you while you try to put it in the box
19:23:26 <Grunt> It is now!
19:23:27 <SamB> maybe if you overload the lantern of shadows or something?
19:23:48 <gammafunk> yeah, looking at his branch-related speech, it's all pretty full of direct insults to the branch itself
19:24:12 <tenofswords> but it's as the idea of it being a place or function
19:24:30 <tenofswords> like what exactly mirrors the thing about creativity anywhere else
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19:25:07 <gammafunk> setting forest on fire is a simple insult of the branch, just like his other speech
19:25:23 <gammafunk> not saying the creativity line is golden or anything, but that's not much of a stretch
19:25:36 <gammafunk> stretch in that it's just a branch insult
19:25:54 <tenofswords> giving up and will leave it to judges
19:25:55 <SamB> how about "Apparently the Enchantress didn't put a lot of thought into ..."
19:26:24 <gammafunk> Yeah, hard to keep the speech lines short
19:26:29 <gammafunk> But that could work
19:26:39 <gammafunk> He needs a good one about the forest being flammable, I feel
19:26:58 <Grunt> Some people just want to watch the forest burn, I guess.
19:27:01 <SamB> Could skip the first word if that helps
19:27:06 <SamB> maybe
19:27:36 <tenofswords> should have a line about air mages as firefighters in a... week?
19:27:57 <SamB> fanning the flames helps now?
19:27:58 <Grunt> "Only you can prevent forest fires!"
19:28:00 <Grunt> >_____________>
19:28:06 <SamB> that's not normal ...
19:28:24 <tenofswords> how normal are trees animating anyway
19:28:30 <Grunt> Magic!
19:28:36 <gammafunk> I'd also like to give him a line mocking the player for wielding the snozz upon victory instead of eating it, but that's perhaps too much of an in-joke
19:28:36 <DracoOmega> Hey, air control is pretty good at putting out fires
19:28:55 <tenofswords> snuff
19:29:03 <DracoOmega> Since they do sort of generally need air to exist
19:29:09 <SamB> hmm
19:29:21 <SamB> if you can STOP the air moving that would indeed be useful
19:29:42 <DracoOmega> Or control where it goes, to an extent...
19:29:44 <SamB> because it would starve the flames of oxygen
19:30:01 <gammafunk> Maybe a line about how hilarious it is watching a dryad trying to put out a forest fire
19:30:17 <SamB> do they do that?
19:30:22 <SamB> maybe they should.
19:30:36 <geekosaur> give grey draconians anti-air breath? :)
19:30:53 <gammafunk> I was more just thinking how funny it would be for something made of wood to put out a fire
19:31:00 <gammafunk> *trying to
19:31:16 <SamB> yes, which is why maybe they should try ;-P
19:31:17 <tenofswords> anticipating at least three lines about *****s and their teleporting
19:32:15 <gammafunk> Hrm, maybe a donald line making fun of faerie dragon armour
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19:32:46 <SamB> ??fairie dragon
19:32:46 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled fairie_dragon in my learndb.
19:32:52 <Grunt> ??faerie dragon armour
19:32:53 <Henzell> faerie dragon armour[1/1]: A randart with fixed appearance, worn by the Enchantress. Good AC for a light armour, sticky flame immunity, and guaranteed not to have some bad properties like Contam, *TELE, etc. Base type is mottled dragon armour.
19:33:13 <tenofswords> another two about ****** ***ves and their *** *** like tactics
19:33:58 <gammafunk> I thought about trying to make a line making fun of sojobo's tactics
19:34:10 <gammafunk> his 'legendary tactics'
19:34:19 <gammafunk> which I guess is blink_encircle_player
19:34:52 <Grunt> Nobody ever said they were legendary in a good way! :D
19:35:19 <tenofswords> .It is a long-cherished tradition among a certain type of military thinker that huge casualties are the main thing. If they are on the other side then this is a valuable bonus.
19:35:24 <tenofswords> ""
19:35:30 <gammafunk> Grunt: That's it, a line about how 'legendary' is a euphamism for lazy or something
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19:39:03 <Grunt> "What kind of legends are about Sojobo's tactics? Horror stories?"
19:39:23 <Grunt> (pick a genre for maximum amusement)
19:39:35 <tenofswords> romance novels
19:39:39 <Grunt> Hahaha.
19:42:19 <DracoOmega> Tactics: blinking battlespheres next to players, and then casting chain lightning on his own troops :P
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19:42:50 <Grunt> Sojobo obviously has had it with how incompetent his minions are. <_<
19:43:29 <tenofswords> surely those tactics aren't nearly as bad as certain tvs
19:43:40 <DracoOmega> Haha, probably not, no
19:43:45 <tenofswords> like, what kind of monster would actually drown when tornado runs out
19:44:05 <DracoOmega> Actually, I am almost certain they currently would if they were non-flying and could cast it
19:44:11 <DracoOmega> Since they would make no effort to avoid water
19:44:16 <tenofswords> but designers wouldn't let them
19:44:22 <tenofswords> ...erm
19:44:27 <tenofswords> welllllll
19:45:27 <gammafunk> I only witness a player fall into lava after letting tornado run out for the first time during the tournament
19:45:57 <SamB> soo, do battlespheres still do that silly thing where they'll follow their indirect owner, the player, rather than their direct owner?
19:46:32 <geekosaur> haven't we seen several examples of panlords killing themselves with their own spells?
19:46:59 <tenofswords> well, that's just being particularly determined to kill you
19:47:20 <nicolae-> most players are also particularly determined to kill themselves, though they don't know it at the time
19:47:26 <SamB> yeah, that kind of tactics is fine as long as the player is dead afterwards
19:47:42 <DracoOmega> What do you mean 'indirect owner'?
19:47:46 <tenofswords> hi nicolae-
19:47:57 <tenofswords> dracoomega: tengu conjurer mercenaries
19:48:07 <SamB> DracoOmega: well, player owns minion, minion owns battlesphere
19:48:17 <SamB> not that the game tracks this "owns" concept exactly
19:48:17 <DracoOmega> Oh. I was thinking for hostile ones, somehow
19:48:23 <gammafunk> The first time I killed cerebov, he stole the kill by fire storming himself
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19:48:41 <DracoOmega> Well, the battlesphere should still consider the conjurer its 'band leader', but I don't know how this applies when it's friendly
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19:49:04 <SamB> well it SHOULD still follow it's dude, not the player
19:49:06 <nicolae-> hi tenofswords
19:49:21 <SamB> since it mirrors their magic
19:49:33 <DracoOmega> Well, the code that forces it to follow the player is much more awkward to work for monsters
19:49:52 <DracoOmega> Considering it a band member will generally keep it grouped with its caster for hostiles, though
19:49:54 <SamB> well it's necessary for those spectral weapons
19:50:07 <DracoOmega> I think the code they are using is outright different in a number of ways
19:50:13 <DracoOmega> (Even though probably more of it should be similar)
19:50:26 <DracoOmega> But I haven't looked it myself yet (this is just what I gathered from the discussions I have heard of how it is operating)
19:51:05 <SamB> I think the "follow owner around" bit was probably trying to use the same logic?
19:51:30 <DracoOmega> Well, for the player version it relies on the fact that monsters will NORMALLY follow you around if you're their target
19:51:37 <DracoOmega> But this doesn't work for monster<->monster
19:51:55 <SamB> hmm
19:52:01 <DracoOmega> There actually isn't a 'follow directly by' state for monster<->monster
19:52:09 <DracoOmega> Band leaders/followers are a lot more lose and don't apply in all situations
19:52:16 <SamB> hmm, I guess that needs fixing
19:52:22 <SamB> so it will be more win and less lose
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19:52:44 <SamB> when it comes to conjured assistants of this sort
19:53:11 <DracoOmega> Well, battlesphere at least can stay a little distance away from its caster and function fine
19:53:17 <SamB> true
19:53:25 <DracoOmega> Like, I think in ordinary circumstances spectral weapons would, too
19:53:44 <SamB> but those have to be in range
19:53:51 <SamB> easier for polearms I guess
19:54:04 <DracoOmega> Well, probably if they were not immediately in range, they would then close when the master was trying to attack something
19:54:08 <DracoOmega> If it sets the weapon's foe
19:54:30 <DracoOmega> Then the weapon would probably move in automatically? (At least it could depending on how it was coded, without needing to rewrite overall monster behaviors)
19:56:52 <SamB> it'd be better if it was in range already so it could start hitting right away though
19:57:18 <DracoOmega> Sure, ideally
19:57:56 <DracoOmega> But like, a turn or two delay on it in some situations seems a reasonable compromise compared to the complexity of making it do otherwise, for monsters, when that behavior doesn't really have a useful place to be generalized at the moment
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20:01:23 -!- the_glow has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20:01:42 <Sizzell> Jazzimus (L16 TrMo) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 416 failed. (Swamp:2)
20:02:27 -!- Raycaster has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:02:37 <DracoOmega> !lm * crash -log
20:02:38 <Sequell> 4960. Jazzimus, XL16 TrMo, T:30833 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Jazzimus/crash-Jazzimus-20130617-010140.txt
20:02:57 <DracoOmega> Bah, static functions
20:03:07 <Sizzell> Jazzimus (L16 TrMo) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 416 failed. (Swamp:2)
20:04:50 <Sizzell> Jazzimus (L16 TrMo) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 416 failed. (Swamp:2)
20:05:25 <Sizzell> Jazzimus (L16 TrMo) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 416 failed. (Swamp:2)
20:05:49 <Sizzell> Jazzimus (L16 TrMo) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 416 failed. (Swamp:2)
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20:18:26 <mumra> DracoOmega: another kirke crash :(
20:19:25 <DracoOmega> I am not familiar with how the old one happened?
20:19:37 <mumra> no, i mean it's the same one
20:19:50 <DracoOmega> I thought that was fixed? (Whatever it was)
20:19:54 <mumra> no
20:20:19 <mumra> i fiddled with some code i thought *might* fix it but i was never sure
20:20:30 <mumra> i have no idea how it's happening basically
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20:21:19 <DracoOmega> Oh dear
20:21:34 <DracoOmega> Well, what is the ultimate end-result causing the crash here?
20:22:56 <mumra> after kirke dying and the fineff/daction running, when the view is being updated, there is an invalid mindex
20:23:07 <mumra> i haven't been able to reproduce it
20:23:22 <DracoOmega> Oh
20:23:24 <DracoOmega> Hmmmm
20:23:44 <DracoOmega> You were the one that made that fineff in the first place, yes?
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20:26:19 <mumra> yes, but i think this crash was happening before that
20:26:33 <mumra> so it might be to do with the daction, which i also amde
20:26:51 <mumra> but i'm not sure why it happens for kirke and not pikel, since they're both implemented the same way
20:26:59 <tenofswords> huh, this ice cave has a chance for an executioner's axe, a quickblade, a triple sword, a freezing giant spiked club, and even demon weapons
20:27:08 <tenofswords> but no bardiches
20:27:22 <SamB> mumra: I don't remember pikel turning you into a slave
20:27:28 <tenofswords> fr
20:27:36 <Cheibriados> 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1633-g69bd591: Procedurally generate tar_mu's maze. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 186+ 70-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=69bd591fa3e6
20:27:43 <tenofswords> oh boy
20:27:58 <mumra> SamB: the daction/fineff are mainly required for the rest of the band reverting
20:28:04 <tenofswords> # only to shut up the validator
20:28:27 <Grunt> fr: pure subvaults aren't subject to bounds checks <_<
20:28:36 <Grunt> (well, other than being small enough to fit in GXM/GYM!)
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20:30:08 <tenofswords> now that you've done that lab magic can I convince you to do other lab magic
20:30:11 * SamB attempts to make a joke, but can't find the necessary manpage
20:33:12 <SamB> Grunt: anyway, you want we should run the vault through purity or purity-ng ?
20:33:19 <Grunt> Mm?
20:33:30 <SamB> to see if it is pure
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20:37:19 <tenofswords> folder by file, branch by .des, sounds and scents spiralling in the evening air in a melancholy waltz, a slow sensual turning
20:37:47 <tenofswords> maybe when I take a serious look at a .des some day I will not feel like it needs to be fixed
20:38:28 <nicolae-> "hi, i'm tenofswords, and i'm a .des-fixing-aholic"
20:38:30 <nicolae-> "hi tenofswords"
20:38:36 <tenofswords> what
20:38:44 <tenofswords> that makes it sounds like anybody else actually does this
20:38:53 <nicolae-> hm, true
20:39:01 <nicolae-> just imagine that dialogue was you talking to yourself in a mirror, instead
20:39:08 <tenofswords> appropiate
20:39:25 <tenofswords> looking into the glint of each sword, perhaps?
20:40:12 <SamB> tenofswords: do you need to fix the one with the lua compat stubs
20:40:26 <SamB> you could take a serious look at it right now
20:40:46 <tenofswords> when it comes to fixes I only do one project at a time
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20:44:58 <tenofswords> ... this _was_ going to lead into me saying I had that ice cave patch done but no crawl has to be stupid
20:47:43 * SamB still thinks tenofswords should take a look at variable/compat.des sometime
20:48:25 <tenofswords> well yes I would have to fix these by trying to bring back at least a revised version of grunt's gehenna vaults
20:48:35 <SamB> oh
20:49:28 <tenofswords> git, you aren't pulling, what is the problem
20:49:48 <SamB> what happens when you try?
20:50:02 <tenofswords> fatal: unable to connect to gitorious.org:
20:50:03 <SamB> (did you do the stash dance?)
20:50:05 <SamB> oh
20:50:10 <SamB> I guess the stash dance won't help
20:50:26 <tenofswords> gitorious.org[0: 87.238.52.168]: errno=Result too large
20:51:05 <SamB> hmm, ERANGE huh
20:51:12 <tenofswords> except the second time worked anyway!
20:51:21 <SamB> oh, good
20:51:51 <SamB> hmm, I don't see ERANGE in the list for connect(2)
20:54:55 <tenofswords> http://sprunge.us/MKNL
20:55:42 <tenofswords> (time to mock me using mocking_ice, savage_ice, and cruel_ice as variables)
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20:56:03 <gammafunk> ….let's break the ICE!
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20:56:23 <tenofswords> hurr hurr hurr
20:56:52 <nicolae-> make a selection of mundane and generic simulacra
20:57:16 <nicolae-> and call it *drumroll* vanilla_ice
20:57:39 <SamB> !rimshot
20:58:42 <tenofswords> glup glup
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20:59:13 <nicolae-> oh dear, my ice joke was too terrible for him :I
21:01:24 <DracoOmega> It's funny how work can have a tendancy to get bogged down in little unforseen details well beyond one's original plans that just somehow end up being related
21:01:42 <SamB> I don't have to actually TEST this before pushing right?
21:01:51 <DracoOmega> Like vapours being really bad at actually firing at things
21:01:59 <DracoOmega> (And no, I am not putting vapours in Forest, because that would be silly)
21:02:06 <SamB> because we've secretly made him a dev without telling him right?
21:02:09 <DracoOmega> Yet somehow this has ended up related
21:02:59 <SamB> hmm, git am complained about some whitespace
21:03:02 <DracoOmega> I have faith in him having tested stuff himself in detail, if that's what you mean
21:03:09 <DracoOmega> Except possibly for that
21:03:41 <Cheibriados> 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1634-g544dfc7: Try to make tar_grunt less empty and spoilery. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 105+ 27-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=544dfc761df1
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21:04:10 <radiosilence> that link was for review
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21:05:08 <radiosilence> I was going to sleep off some design thoughts and then mae the ice statue gardens not suck, too
21:05:50 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev
21:06:21 <radiosilence> oh well
21:06:24 -!- radiosilence has left ##crawl-dev
21:07:09 <SamB> DracoOmega: for some reason commit never seems to complain so much as am does
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21:08:05 <gammafunk> Failing to run checkwhite gave me an excuse to learn how to rebase, at least
21:09:05 <|amethyst> SamB:  -3 might help there
21:09:27 <|amethyst> SamB:  assuming the patch was created with git format-patch and has blob hashs
21:09:32 <|amethyst> s/shs/shes/
21:09:42 <gammafunk> Of course I should just figure out how best to make emacs check that for me
21:10:04 <SamB> |amethyst: there's nothing wrong with the patch except it adds some trailing spaces
21:10:31 <|amethyst> oh, sorry, misunderstood
21:11:09 <SamB> so it told me a few places with errors and summarized saying how many errors and how many lines it found ...
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21:12:12 <SamB> so I go in in Emacs and edit delete the red spaces at the ends of some lines near the indicated places
21:13:37 <SamB> now what thing was I using to get that red ...
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21:16:17 <SamB> it's not shown by `describe-mode' for some reason :-(
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21:17:18 <SamB> it's not develock-mode ...
21:18:20 <SamB> and, oops, I missed one error :-(
21:20:45 <Cheibriados> 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1635-g1d333ba: Donald Forest/Vaults/Abyss dialogue (#7197). 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 63+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1d333ba3f264
21:21:59 <gammafunk> SamB: I think it's trailing-whitespace
21:22:09 <gammafunk> buffer-local, but you customize it
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21:28:18 <SamB> well it looks like that would do it but `show-trailing-whitespace' is showing as nil in a relevant buffer
21:28:19 <SamB> oh, but not this other one
21:28:19 <SamB> maybe magit does it a different way ...
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21:29:47 <geekosaur> there's a couple of ways to get visible trailing whitespace
21:31:15 <SamB> but show-trailing-whitespace seems to be what was showing it in the .des buffer
21:33:41 <gammafunk> yeah, I just customized that to true so I can catch that from now on
21:35:56 <Cheibriados> 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1636-g3307a2d: One last piece of Donald dialogue. 10(47 seconds ago, 1 file, 8+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3307a2dca8d5
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21:41:51 <Cheibriados> 03HangedMan 07* 0.13-a0-1637-gd581f76: icecave.des tweaks, clean-up, simulacrum variety 10(50 minutes ago, 1 file, 163+ 147-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d581f763a9ff
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21:43:25 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1638-g9943704: Grammar fix. 10(82 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9943704e9f0e
21:43:33 <Cheibriados> crimson imp (055) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 9-18 | AC/EV: 3/14 | Dam: 4 | 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fly, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(36), 05hellfire, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy++ | XP: 48 | Sp: blink | Sz: little | Int: normal.

21:43:33 <bh> %??crimson imp
21:43:49 <bh> huh. never knew they could use items
21:43:49 <Gretell> Debian builds of the trunk branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1635-g1d333ba
21:44:16 * geekosaur seems to "like" getting imps with wands
21:44:29 <bh> geekosaur: I just got one kiting me with a polearm
21:44:50 <Grunt> |amethyst: oops
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21:47:22 <gammafunk> pity the player that lets an imp pick up an unided wand
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21:48:30 <DracoOmega> A bow and arrows are nice, too
21:48:33 <DracoOmega> Yay for blinking archers
21:48:36 <SamB> "nice"
21:48:41 <SamB> ??imp
21:48:41 <DracoOmega> (Or a rod!)
21:48:42 <Henzell> crimson imp[1/5]: An annoying bastard that hits you, blinks away, and regens fast enough that even when you do hit them they nearly heal it all back. Hit them hard and fast before they run away, or just take them with you to another level and ditch them once they blink away ({imp parking}).
21:48:47 <DracoOmega> Imps with items are great fun
21:48:47 <|amethyst> Grunt:  I was thinking... would rogue's gallery make sense as a portal vault?
21:48:56 <|amethyst> s/e's/es'/
21:49:13 <DracoOmega> Well, HangedMan had been working on an arena/gauntlet portal vault a while back
21:49:22 <Grunt> Ask yourself what the current stance on vault monsters is, and ask yourself that question again.
21:49:25 <DracoOmega> I can see there being a variety of themes possible within such a thing
21:49:47 <SamB> Grunt: the current stance is that they are more welcome in portal vaults
21:49:54 <SamB> at least, that's what I heard
21:49:59 <DracoOmega> Grunt: Well, one arguable advantage of it being a portal vault is the people who don't want to see them don't have to! :P
21:50:03 <|amethyst> wizlabs have plenty of vault subs
21:50:30 <bh> ??conservation
21:50:30 <Henzell> conservation[1/2]: Provides a 90% save for items to resist attacks that would otherwise destroy them. Cold would destroy potions, fire would destroy scrolls, and spores would destroy food. Found on amulets of conservation and cloaks of preservation, which don't stack with each other. If you want acid protection, try {resist corrosion} or {preservation} instead.
21:50:32 <bh> ??preservation
21:50:33 <Henzell> cloak of preservation[1/1]: It gives {conservation} and {resist corrosion}. Does not stack with the amulets.
21:50:53 <Grunt> Speaking of vault monsters, I was considering turning withered plants (and possibly demonic plants) into actual monsters, because they're used in a lot of vaults.
21:50:55 <DracoOmega> In any case, I think the arena/guantlet concept was a good one, even if the implementation needed work from its original conception that I saw
21:51:03 <Grunt> (also, col:darkgray for withered plants aggravates me)
21:51:14 <DracoOmega> Ah, console problems
21:51:28 <DracoOmega> (Stupid console making me struggle to find unused spaces to put things...)
21:51:52 <DracoOmega> What is the advantage of making them a normal monster in this case, though?
21:51:53 <|amethyst> can you even override renamed monsters?
21:52:11 <DracoOmega> Since a withered plant still does the same things a normal plant does, and we're not going to be spawning them randomly
21:53:34 <Grunt> It's easier to change the properties of something that's supposed to be the same from place to place in one place than in thirteen or so.
21:53:46 <DracoOmega> Oh, in terms of you giving it a different color now?
21:54:08 <Grunt> Well, there might be other tweaks we want to make to it at some point.
21:54:13 <DracoOmega> (Might I give a cautionary note that I have used a number more colors of P now? >.>)
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21:54:31 <Grunt> (rN+++ for a withered plant or something, so that you can't drain something that's supposedly already drained of all life <_<)
21:54:39 <|amethyst> most of them are lightgrey I think
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21:54:45 <Grunt> (or MH_DEMONIC for demonic plants.  "The demonic plant convulses!")
21:54:50 <DracoOmega> Don't plants already already have rN+++?
21:54:59 <Cheibriados> plant (03P) | Spd: 0 | HD: 10 | HP: 37-73 | AC/EV: 10/0 | 03plant | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 0 | Sz: small | Int: plant.

21:54:59 <DracoOmega> %??plant
21:55:14 <|amethyst> Grunt:  I'd worry about taking away MH_PLANT
21:55:17 <Grunt> I remember there being *something* odd they were vulnerable too, hm.
21:55:24 <Grunt> s/too/to/
21:56:22 <Grunt> Anyway, the point is to make the thing considerably easier to maintain than it currently is.
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21:56:46 <SamB> we can haz demonic duck?
21:57:09 <gammafunk> grunt_demonic_duck_pond
21:57:10 <|amethyst> MH_ should be a bitfield
21:57:22 <DracoOmega> That would be convenient for a few things
21:57:33 <DracoOmega> Though in practice I think only very narrowly
21:57:41 <Grunt> (why do we have an MH_PLANT anyway)
21:58:12 <|amethyst> so animals don't polymorph into plants?
21:58:27 <DracoOmega> Mightn't it affect Fedhas, too?
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21:58:53 <DracoOmega> But yes, also so plants polymorph into OTHER plants (not that this happens often)
21:59:13 <|amethyst> but I do see Grunt's point
21:59:28 <|amethyst> because all our MH_PLANT monsters have one of two genera
21:59:33 <DracoOmega> I think there are some other effects, too
21:59:37 <DracoOmega> But I don't recall them
22:00:13 <DracoOmega> Well, they can be poisoned with poison arrow, when nonliving things can't
22:03:07 <ontoclasm> you can poison withered plants with parrow i think
22:03:17 <ontoclasm> damn you DracoOmega
22:03:40 <DracoOmega> Well, withered plants aren't DEAD, they're just not very vibrant
22:04:19 <DracoOmega> |amethyst: Incidentally, while watching another Crypt run today, it occured to me that the general abundance of Forest zombies in Crypt works rather well with that alternate war history theory :P
22:04:36 <DracoOmega> |amethyst: If the only place you can encounter them in that instance of the world is as undead
22:04:51 <SwissStopwatch> why would you fight a war over the equivalent of a 5-floor apartment building anyway
22:05:05 <DracoOmega> Real wars have been fought for less
22:05:26 <SamB> like what
22:05:39 <DracoOmega> Oh, sometimes really silly slights
22:06:01 <DracoOmega> (Not generally HUGE wars or anything, but plenty of small ones have been over tiny insignificant things)
22:06:09 <SwissStopwatch> there's one infamous example at least
22:06:21 <SwissStopwatch> "some dude's ear" is the current bidding
22:06:27 -!- Lightli has quit [Quit: sleep]
22:06:32 <ontoclasm> alternate war history?
22:06:56 <SamB> also that, what are you talking about?
22:07:00 <|amethyst> ontoclasm:  forest and crypt are the same branch
22:07:05 <ontoclasm> ah
22:07:07 <DracoOmega> Just in one world, Yred won
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22:07:27 <ontoclasm> enchantress zombie
22:07:27 <|amethyst> or the mummies won
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22:24:13 <gammafunk> wouldn't be that kiku and yred combined forces and won?
22:24:31 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
22:24:33 <gammafunk> I was always unclear why it's yred over kiku that has the war aspect emphasized
22:25:39 <gammafunk> maybe it's just because yred has by far the coolest god motto
22:33:36 * geekosaur thinks about god branches. not that there's much you can do with tso/zin/ely...
22:33:44 <Grunt> holy pan!!
22:33:45 <Grunt> >_>
22:33:56 <Grunt> Clearly we need a holy counterpart to Pan.      <_<
22:34:07 <DracoOmega> One new branch at a time... :P
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22:34:54 <bh> should we make Spider harder? I find it's much easier than Snake
22:35:27 <SwissStopwatch> I doubt that's correct
22:35:38 <gammafunk> bg: I think spider:$ ends up being a lot easier than snake:$ if you're prepared
22:35:44 <SwissStopwatch> snake's enemies are certainly more durable though
22:36:07 <SwissStopwatch> maybe snake is harder on the grounds of Lamia being the single greatest risk of death in either branch
22:36:24 <Grunt> I think Snake statistically has the highest rate of deaths within the branch per entry of all of the lair branches, and this was long before any branch-specific uniques turned up.
22:36:39 <SwissStopwatch> see, Grunt is proud of it
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22:37:13 <SwissStopwatch> But to be more serious I kind of think spider has nastier tricks
22:37:36 <SwissStopwatch> like the branch ending can be quite threatening to a lot of characters
22:37:46 <bh> SwissStopwatch: the ghost moths?
22:37:55 <SwissStopwatch> that is one big part
22:38:18 <SwissStopwatch> I feel like the snake ending is mostly just an attrition war against a bunch of slow enemies who have obnoxious durability
22:38:36 <gammafunk> ghost + suppression moth is incredibly dangerous to mages, but you don't see the two together much outside of a zig spider level
22:39:02 <bh> SwissStopwatch: the biggest risk in Snake:$ is getting teleported into the rune vault
22:39:21 <SwissStopwatch> yes, which is generally not going to happen unless you're half-asleep
22:39:30 <SwissStopwatch> and also don't have MR
22:39:47 <SwissStopwatch> not that we don't all space out a bit when clearing that stuff out....
22:39:51 <Grunt> Wait, being alert makes for better play??
22:39:56 <Grunt> Who would have thought??
22:40:02 <SamB> I didn't know you could be half-asleep in crawl
22:40:13 <gammafunk> I just let my bot play for me
22:40:14 <bh> SamB: you can. You just die. See ??+12 whip
22:40:15 <geekosaur> you haven't ewatched any Duph games, have you? :p
22:40:15 <SwissStopwatch> you can be half-asleep outside of crawl though
22:40:22 <Grunt> A spriggan disenchanter comes into view.
22:40:25 <Grunt> You feel bored.
22:40:49 <Grunt> !send bh a +12 quarterstaff
22:40:49 <Henzell> Sending a +12 quarterstaff to bh.
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22:41:03 <Grunt> (no, I had nothing to do with that one other than being the author of the vault where it happened)
22:41:10 <Grunt> !lg * kaux~~+12_quarterstaff
22:41:10 <Sequell> ERROR:  invalid regular expression: quantifier operand invalid
22:41:15 <Grunt> !lg * kaux~~12_quarterstaff
22:41:16 <Sequell> 1. Tolias the Eclecticist (L17 SEAE), worshipper of Sif Muna, annihilated by a naga (the +9,+12 quarterstaff "Giantslayer" {flame}) on Snake:5 (grunt_snake_rune_spirals) on 2013-04-03 03:45:45, with 157278 points after 29827 turns and 5:11:54.
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22:41:37 <gammafunk> RIP Tolias
22:42:02 <SwissStopwatch> !lg * kaux~~+12_giant_club
22:42:03 <Sequell> ERROR:  invalid regular expression: quantifier operand invalid
22:42:05 <SwissStopwatch> hmm
22:42:10 <SwissStopwatch> !lg * kaux~~12_giant_club
22:42:10 <Sequell> No games for * (kaux~~12_giant_club).
22:42:14 <Grunt> !lg * kaux~~12.*club s=kaux
22:42:15 <Sequell> 2 games for * (kaux~~12.*club): a +6,+12 club, a +12,+6 club
22:42:17 <SwissStopwatch> come on I know it's possible
22:42:24 <Grunt> !lg * kaux~~12 s=kaux
22:42:25 <Sequell> 81 games for * (kaux~~12): 10x wand of frost {zapped: 12}, 9x wand of flame (12), 9x wand of frost (12), 9x wand of magic darts {zapped: 12}, 6x wand of magic darts (12), 6x wand of flame {zapped: 12}, 2x the +4,+12 Glaive of Prune {chop}, 2x wand of draining (12), 2x wand of disintegration {zapped: 12}, 2x the +12,+10 sword of Jihad, 2x wand of fire (12), the +4,+12 hand axe "Rummage", a +4 rod o...
22:42:32 <Grunt> !lg * kaux~~\+12 s=kaux
22:42:32 <SwissStopwatch> I guess maybe it's pretty hard though
22:42:32 <Sequell> 15 games for * (kaux~~\+12): 2x the +12,+10 sword of Jihad, 2x the +4,+12 Glaive of Prune {chop}, a +12,+4 spear, the +12,+8 mace of Departure {crush, *Rage rPois Dex+2 SInv Stlth++}, the +12,+6 whip of Success {drain}, the +12,+0 flail "Xuxtait", the +9,+12 quarterstaff "Giantslayer" {flame}, a +6,+12 club, a +12,+6 club, the +4,+12 hand axe "Rummage", the cursed +12,+16 plutonium sword, the +12,...
22:42:50 <SwissStopwatch> since I did get erolcha with an 11 club once
22:42:55 <Grunt> !lg * kaux~~\+11 s=kaux
22:42:55 <Sequell> 30 games for * (kaux~~\+11): 2x a +11,+4 club, 2x a +4,+11 club, 2x a +5,+11 club, the +11,+11 morningstar "Eos", the +4,+11 trident "Cuhil" {drain}, a +11,+7 club, a +11,+5 elven whip, a +6,+11 club, a +3,+11 club, a +11,+5 spear, a +11,+7 whip, the +8,+11 long sword of the Clouds {venom}, a +11,+5 giant spiked club, the +11,-2 hammer "Touteqoh" {holy}, a +8,+11 club, the +11,+11 morningstar "Eos...
22:42:58 <geekosaur> ??12 club
22:42:59 <Henzell> 12 club[1/2]: redrum the Skirmisher (L3 DrCK), worshipper of Makhleb, slain by Ijyb (a +6,+12 club) on D:2 on 2010-08-19, with 120 points after 1033 turns and 0:04:06.
22:43:04 <radiosilence> I prefer, well,
22:43:31 <radiosilence> wait damnit this isn't tenofswords
22:43:45 <SwissStopwatch> it's hard to keep track of all of those names, isn't it
22:43:47 <radiosilence> curses
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22:44:36 <SwissStopwatch> anyway say what you want about spider not seeming hard but moths of wrath are sort of terrifying
22:44:49 <Grunt> The moth of wrath goads it on!
22:44:49 <ontoclasm> ??tenofswords
22:44:50 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled tenofswords in my learndb.
22:45:14 <radiosilence> !lg * kaux=~10 kaux=~sword s=kaux
22:45:15 <Sequell> 9 games for * (kaux=~10 kaux=~sword): 2x the +12,+10 sword of Jihad, the +0,+10 long sword of Cheibriados' Approval {elec}, the cursed +5,+10 plutonium sword, a +10,+0 elven short sword of protection, the +8,+10 great sword of Midnight, a +10,+1 elven short sword of electrocution, the +12,+10 sword of Jihad {holy, *Rage rN+ MR EV+3 Stlth--}, the +10,+4 short sword "Chess" {pain}
22:45:22 <SamB> ??HangedMan
22:45:22 <Henzell> hangedman[1/14]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ0nrfYa0Ss
22:45:28 <Grunt> +5,+10 plutonium sword
22:45:30 <Grunt> ..wow.
22:45:31 <WalkerBoh> [20:42:24]	Glensy	christ https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc is a stupidly long cpp file
22:45:32 <WalkerBoh> [20:43:19]	Glensy	50 fucking lines of includes
22:45:34 <WalkerBoh> [20:43:28]	Glensy	what the hell is ouch.h
22:45:36 <WalkerBoh> [20:44:05]	Glensy	if (unhurted > 0)
22:45:37 <WalkerBoh> [20:44:05]	Glensy	hurted -= unhurted;
22:45:39 <WalkerBoh> [20:44:09]	Glensy	the magic of ouch.cc
22:45:42 <Grunt> !lg * kaux~~10.*plutonium x=cv
22:45:48 <Sequell> 1. [cv=0.3] Nate the Chopper (L8 DsFi), worshipper of Okawaru, slain by an imp (the cursed +5,+10 plutonium sword) on D:7 on 2007-10-28 02:15:49, with 1173 points after 8827 turns and 0:39:27.
22:46:20 <DracoOmega> And it didn't even have its special transmute miscast proc then either!
22:46:28 <DracoOmega> (And it wasn't a triple sword, either)
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22:46:35 <DracoOmega> So basically it was terrible
22:46:49 <radiosilence> sword of misfortune
22:47:24 <DracoOmega> Somehow I am reminded of an early encounter with moving feature mimics when they were first added
22:47:31 <radiosilence> show glensy beam.cc
22:47:36 <DracoOmega> I was convinced that the fountain mimic splashing water on me was giving me glow
22:47:46 <radiosilence> fr:
22:47:47 <DracoOmega> Because apparently I had forgotten to remove my +MUT ring swap
22:47:57 <DracoOmega> And had been autoexploring with it on when I ran into the mimic
22:48:04 <Grunt> The fountain mimic splashes radioactive water on you!
22:48:12 <DracoOmega> That really was what seemed to be happening!
22:48:24 <Grunt> Clearly we need a nuclear reactor vault <_<
22:48:30 <gammafunk> I really like that there's a stuff.cc *and* a misc.cc (and a misc directory)
22:48:51 <radiosilence> The sparkling fountain mimic splashes you! You are sparkling!
22:48:52 <DracoOmega> stuff.cc and misc.cc are actually somewhat organizationally seperate
22:48:52 <gammafunk> not to mention mon-stuff.cc
22:48:56 <geekosaur> fr nonsense.cc to go with stuff.cc
22:49:08 <DracoOmega> But honestly, it is genuinely hard to figure out where some misc code is supposed to even go
22:49:39 <SamB> there's a misc directory?
22:49:51 <SamB> that must be where we keep the porno
22:49:54 <gammafunk> also skills.cc and skills2.cc; Skills 2: This Time it's War
22:50:41 <radiosilence> it used to be much worse
22:51:14 <radiosilence> spells[12345].cc
22:51:36 <gammafunk> haha
22:52:10 <SamB> was that for like a 286 or something
22:52:19 <ontoclasm> stuff.cc is my favorite file
22:52:43 <ontoclasm> * @brief Misc stuff.
22:52:50 <ontoclasm> super helpful
22:53:33 <gammafunk> haha, contrast the brief line for misc.cc
22:53:39 <gammafunk> * @brief Misc functions.
22:55:10 <bh> ??join ##crawl
22:55:10 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled join_crawl in my learndb.
22:55:11 <bh> er
22:55:21 <radiosilence> !source dat/des/branches/crypt.des
22:55:27 <Henzell> Lines pasted to http://paste.ubuntu.com/5772890/
22:55:54 <SamB> why's he pasting to ubuntu.com now I wonder
22:56:58 <radiosilence> it's randomized
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22:57:36 <SamB> !source stuff.cc
22:57:40 <Henzell> Lines pasted to http://pastie.org/8050619
22:57:52 <SamB> wow, I guess you were serious???
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22:58:08 <SamB> that's ... kind of crazy ...
22:58:34 <radiosilence> I wonder if it will aide or limit ideas to keep functioning so many default settings for themed vault sets
22:59:07 <radiosilence> henzell should use sprunge too
23:00:26 <rchandra> so now that contam is non ridiculous, should plutonium sword move back to being a greatsword?
23:00:39 <DracoOmega> But that would be much less fun
23:01:04 <SwissStopwatch> it would probably be -better- as a greatsword maybe
23:01:09 <DracoOmega> Plutonium sword's original problem wasn't that contam was so bad so much as it would have been mediocre even without it
23:01:12 <Grunt> Speaking of randarts, can we turn the mighty Arga into a broad axe? <_<
23:01:24 <Grunt> *unrandarts
23:01:25 <SwissStopwatch> because it's still a ridiculous weapon as a great sword at current and then it would just need less skill
23:01:25 <Grunt> ...
23:01:37 <rchandra> speaking of randarts, make sure 'Agra' is a valid unrand name
23:01:42 <DracoOmega> Haha
23:01:44 <rchandra> *rand
23:01:47 <Grunt> Haha.
23:01:57 <Grunt> Only on axes?
23:01:59 <SwissStopwatch> replace Plog with it 5% of the time on war axes
23:02:46 <DracoOmega> "If it's not 100% mithril, it's not the genuine article. Accept no substitutes!"
23:02:47 <radiosilence> am personally annoyed hellfire doesn't have exploding fireball bolts or something yet
23:03:05 <rchandra> radiosilence: I think that was an elliott patch?
23:03:08 <DracoOmega> I suspect broad axe Arga would actually be extremely good
23:03:24 <radiosilence> also assassin blowgun still exists
23:03:55 <rchandra> yes, that might be the biggest unrand problem right now
23:03:58 <radiosilence> rchandra: I thought it was marvinpa's
23:04:08 <rchandra> could well be
23:04:52 <radiosilence> !vaul trove_unrand
23:05:13 <radiosilence> !vaulT trove_unrand
23:05:18 <Henzell> Couldn't find trove_unrand in the Crawl source tree
23:05:27 <radiosilence> bah
23:05:52 <Grunt> !vault trove_artefacts
23:05:55 <Henzell> Lines pasted to http://pastie.org/8050645
23:06:28 <rchandra> !lg * kaux~~\+1 kaux=~giant.*club s=kaux
23:06:28 <Sequell> No games for * (kaux~~\+1 kaux=~giant.*club).
23:06:45 <Grunt> !lg * kaux~~\+1 kaux~~giant.*club s=kaux
23:06:45 <Sequell> 22 games for * (kaux~~\+1 kaux~~giant.*club): 2x a +1,+3 giant club of chaos, 2x a +6,+10 giant club, 2x a +1,+1 giant club of chaos, 2x a +10,+5 giant club, a +1,+2 giant club of chaos, a +0,+1 giant spiked club of chaos, a +10,+3 giant spiked club, a +2,+1 giant club of chaos, a +4,+1 giant spiked club of chaos, a cursed +0,+1 giant club of chaos, a cursed +1,-2 giant spiked club of chaos, a +1,...
23:06:52 <radiosilence> zhor the boring
23:06:52 <Grunt> !lg * kaux~~\+1[012] kaux~~giant.*club s=kaux
23:06:53 <Sequell> 8 games for * (kaux~~\+1[012] kaux~~giant.*club): 2x a +10,+5 giant club, 2x a +6,+10 giant club, a +11,+3 giant spiked club, a +10,+3 giant spiked club, a +10,+5 giant spiked club, a +11,+5 giant spiked club
23:07:38 <radiosilence> what was this zhor, this red-skinned cold-resistant beast
23:07:53 <rchandra> zhor the djinnifriend
23:08:14 <geekosaur> a zhor loser?
23:09:35 <rchandra> is it against the rules to have an unrand have an effect while in your inventory?
23:09:41 <radiosilence> should have put a (tiny) chance for that skin in ice caves
23:09:53 <SamB> rchandra: what sort of effect
23:10:31 <rchandra> SamB: I was thinking that when you unequip a +inv item while invisible, it doesn't cancel invisibiliity (blowgun of the assassin)
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23:43:48 <Lantell> Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.13-a0-1638-g9943704 (34)
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