00:00:30 The first case can safely manage the file itself. The third could maybe be expected to use a database (or other background process) as a backend for the concurrent access. The second is rather tricky. 00:01:12 we already do use sqlite for some things 00:01:15 Since it'd be poor if such a feature required adding to the "normal" dependencies for crawl 00:01:19 if that would turn out to be desirable 00:01:42 -!- rchandra has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:01:47 meaning we already require sqlite 00:02:00 ah, that's for the translation database? 00:02:26 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1486-g0edb3d0 (34) 00:02:56 I don't honestly don't know how the non-joke translations work 00:03:06 er, that was too many don'ts ... 00:03:07 but does sqlite work with concurrent access from multiple copies of crawl? 00:03:13 -!- Morphy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:03:47 sqlite has decent locking, yes 00:04:12 cool. Yes, looking at the specs now 00:04:33 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 00:04:35 certainly enough to prevent different copies of crawl from stepping on eachothers' toes 00:06:13 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:49 we might need to exercise SOME care, mind you, if doing any read/modify/write, but at least we wouldn't have to worry about low-level corruption ;-) 00:07:34 right. So we can just manage an sqlite database for counting up the expiration criteria (whatever they end up being). If the main servers need faster concurrent writes, we can provide a beefier backend when compiling with DGL. 00:07:34 ... in(s)ane idea of the moment (no, this is not actually something that should ever seriously be considered for inclusion): http://sprunge.us/KDJS 00:07:46 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 00:07:50 * Grunt goes to sleep before he comes up with something even more horrifying and/or begins to think it's a good idea. 00:08:06 Grunt: what if you do that IN YOUR DREAMZ! 00:10:55 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1458-gad1601e (34) 00:18:33 SamB: what's so bad about Grunt's idea? 00:18:44 bh: I didn't look 00:19:08 I was implicitly trusting his current assesment of the idea 00:19:17 bh: Eldritch Abomination, with tentacles 00:19:30 unknown monster: "eldritch abomination" 00:19:30 %??eldritch abomination 00:19:35 ??malign gateway 00:19:35 malign gateway[1/3]: Summons a portal through which an eldritch tentacle emerges. Depending on spell power, it will be friendly for a number of turns, before turning hostile, or the portal closes and it is severed, whichever happens first (either way, it will turn hostile). Level 7 Summ/Tloc found in the Grand Grimoire. 1/3 chance of draining a point of int. 00:19:53 eldritch tentacle (12w) | Spd: 12 | HD: 16 | HP: 99-141 | AC/EV: 13/0 | Dam: 3009(chaos), 4009(chaos) | 11non-living, 04eats corpses, amphibious, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 08acid+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 3181 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 00:19:53 %??eldritch tentacle 00:20:03 If I understand it right, it's a tentacle head with up to 6 of those 00:20:54 and the body hits for 50(chaos), 60(chaos) 00:21:08 oh. That is a very bad idea 00:21:11 so, all around a pleasant friend :D 00:21:34 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:23:01 bh: are you going to have to kill him, or just move bh[1] -> Grunt[1] 00:23:45 !learn bh Grunt also has bad ideas. 00:23:46 I don't know about !learn bh. 00:23:51 !learn add bh Grunt also has bad ideas. 00:23:52 bh[3/3]: Grunt also has bad ideas. 00:23:55 !learn del bh[2] 00:23:56 Deleted bh[2/3]: He's very sorry that you drowned in the abyss. 00:24:38 bh: wait, you're NOT sorry that they drowned in the abyss? 00:24:55 Grunt fixed the bug. No one is drowning anymore. 00:25:33 shouldn't that have just warranted a s/$/, but it should be fixed now/ or something 00:25:40 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 00:26:35 clearly, bh is unrepentant 00:26:55 !abyss qoala 00:26:56 bh casts a spell. qoala is devoured by a tear in reality! 00:26:58 He was on to me. 00:27:01 noooooo 00:33:18 qoala drowns in the Abyss 00:34:32 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1458-gad1601e 00:38:44 -!- eb has quit [] 00:40:23 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 00:40:26 -!- jooosa has quit [Client Quit] 00:41:18 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 00:44:19 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:45:27 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:46:23 -!- Cerepol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:51:36 -!- Helmschank has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:51:48 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 00:53:16 -!- joosa has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:53:32 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:22 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:56 -!- jooosa has quit [Client Quit] 00:54:58 -!- kait_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:58:48 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 01:02:55 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:08:00 03Medar 07* 0.13-a0-1487-gf35a63b: Improve handling of menu titles in WebTiles 10(2 hours ago, 6 files, 101+ 55-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f35a63b0d44a 01:10:08 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1487-gf35a63b (34) 01:13:31 -!- dienosore has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:14:43 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:16:57 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 01:17:08 03|amethyst 07[stone_soup-0.12] * 0.12.2-3-gfffbd50: Correct descriptions of Blade and Crypt (#7147). 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fffbd505c6ec 01:25:50 -!- Sky_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:27:22 -!- qoala has quit [] 01:29:15 -!- Guest41718 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:05 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:32:21 Draconian with unided ring of rC leaks info by Grandiloquent Gentleman 01:39:34 man, gotta go and and work, what is this 01:43:20 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 01:45:31 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:48:02 mumra_: probably one of those "jobs" I've been hearing about 01:50:14 03qoala 07* 0.13-a0-1488-g5bd0de3: Fixed Djinni level up notes to report EP instead of HP and MP 10(7 days ago, 1 file, 13+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5bd0de3deaf8 01:50:14 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1489-g11bc701: Don't leak unided rC in draconian A screen (#7173) 10(63 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=11bc70174075 01:51:38 -!- Krakhan|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:52:59 Cherry-picked 1 commit into stone_soup-0.12 01:53:42 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:48 -!- mumra_ is now known as mumra 01:55:09 SamB: i believe it's some sort of contagion? 01:55:09 mumra: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 01:55:28 oh, you mean I could catch it from you? 01:55:43 * SamB breaks into an evil grin 01:57:49 i'm helping build some kind of art installation, should be fairly fun as jobs go 01:58:53 and hopefully they'll let me help them build a kraken in a lake in july :) 01:59:09 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:02:56 -!- Chozo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:02 -!- kirisa has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:06:03 -!- Ystah has quit [Quit: CyberScript - Breakfast of champions (www.cyberscript.org)] 02:07:47 huh. suppression resets the gourmand clock 02:12:41 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 02:13:13 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:17:12 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:57 -!- Sky_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:22:08 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:14 -!- Laany has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:29:21 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 02:32:19 -!- myrmidette has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:33:27 Djinni are able to get cold resistance mutation by Grandiloquent Gentleman 02:35:16 -!- dienosore has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:39:39 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Quit: bye] 02:44:24 -!- myrmidette has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:55 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:45:14 <|amethyst> hm, chei lagged so much he missed a commit 02:45:15 <|amethyst> %git 02:46:10 07|amethyst * 0.13-a0-1489-g11bc701: Don't leak unided rC in draconian A screen (#7173) 10(56 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=11bc70174075 02:46:23 <|amethyst> oh, he just hasn't seen it yet 02:54:37 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 02:54:38 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 02:54:38 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: CAO has telnet again. Let rax know if there are problems. | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ?cszo, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious! 02:54:54 -!- nooodl_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:55:49 <|amethyst> %git 02:56:05 07|amethyst * 0.13-a0-1489-g11bc701: Don't leak unided rC in draconian A screen (#7173) 10(67 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=11bc70174075 02:57:14 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:58:43 <|amethyst> %git 02:58:43 07|amethyst * 0.13-a0-1490-gd88578d: Shut up a stupid warning (#7040) 10(20 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d88578db806e 02:58:43 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:58:54 <|amethyst> okay, working again 03:01:57 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 03:02:13 -!- nooodl_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:04:18 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 03:06:21 -!- wump is now known as wumpus 03:06:48 -!- wumpus has quit [Changing host] 03:08:08 -!- Notorion has quit [] 03:08:31 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:11:25 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 03:20:36 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:20:56 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 03:22:35 another LO drowned after blinking, i wonder if it an old game or something? 03:22:42 !lg bohdar -log 03:22:43 72. bohdar, XL14 LOCK, T:28944: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/bohdar/morgue-bohdar-20130607-081736.txt 03:25:31 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 03:25:40 it seems it was just old 03:30:20 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:30:54 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:50:46 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Pacra] 03:54:32 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:39 -!- Pepe has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:03:03 -!- rchandra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14:07 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:27:44 Disable (r)ead option for manuals by Grandiloquent Gentleman 04:28:53 -!- xnavy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:32:34 Medar: it's unnecessary to maintain backwards compatibility between the crawl code and the game_data/static/*.js code, they are (supposed to be) always version-matched 04:33:29 Medar: (regarding the menu title changes) 04:35:48 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:21 -!- Aponym has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 04:38:50 -!- Sky_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:41:44 -!- jetnerd has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 04:43:45 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 04:47:56 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:48:31 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:51:36 -!- Arivia has quit [Quit: rivs is afk (probably sleeping)] 04:51:36 -!- Perryman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:51:36 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:52:11 whats a good way to read commit messages via browser? gid.develz.org is not up to date, and gitorious only shows short commit messages unless you click on the commit. 04:52:14 -!- mumblerit has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:52:28 -!- orionstein has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:53:18 alefury: Try http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=log 04:53:29 Like the git.develz.org you know, only up to date! 04:53:37 thanks :) 04:53:50 -!- mumblerit is now known as Guest74592 04:58:20 -!- kait__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:58:29 -!- kait has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:22:45 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 05:22:45 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:22:46 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: CAO has telnet again. Let rax know if there are problems. | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ?cszo, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious! 05:26:14 -!- Arivia has quit [Quit: Arivia] 05:56:15 -!- the_glow has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:02:23 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 06:06:13 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:07:03 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:14:39 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:15:23 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:09 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:30:02 -!- scummos^ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 06:30:50 -!- nooodl_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:35 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:35:23 -!- sacje has quit [Quit: sacje] 06:39:13 -!- Guest81510 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:44:15 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:32 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 06:59:22 -!- _D_ has quit [Client Quit] 07:05:34 -!- syncopath has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:09:18 -!- santiago_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:10:16 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:10:45 -!- rebthor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:12:01 -!- Guest81510 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:26 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 07:17:08 -!- Twinge has quit [] 07:19:09 -!- JuicyJ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:20:41 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 07:22:07 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:24:33 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 07:28:37 -!- whog has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:33:28 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:34:38 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Client Quit] 07:40:28 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 07:41:34 -!- Arivia has quit [Quit: rivs is gone! (/kick sami for me <3)] 07:53:46 -!- Melum has quit [Quit: Was eaten by a grue.] 07:58:44 -!- Guest81510 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02:03 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 08:04:09 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:10:33 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13:07 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:34:01 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 08:38:16 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:38:23 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:38:24 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:41:08 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:41:37 !tell Grunt i'm pretty sure "any shop no_mimic" doesn't work for some reason or other, so your orc commit mostly didn't do anything, testing with mimic weight increased seems to confirm this 08:41:40 MarvinPA: OK, I'll let grunt know. 08:43:16 !tell Grunt (also i like them being able to be mimics anyway) 08:43:17 MarvinPA: OK, I'll let grunt know. 08:45:37 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:47:49 DGMavn the Slayer (L13 MiBe) (D:13) 08:49:24 <|amethyst> !lm dgmavn crash -log 08:49:25 2. DGMavn, XL13 MiBe, T:17846 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/DGMavn/crash-DGMavn-20130607-134748.txt 08:50:29 Gargoyle Hard Skin mutation not declared by ACG 08:50:35 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:57 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:53:42 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:00:09 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:00:42 Rassilon the Carver (L6 MiFi) (D:5) 09:01:25 <|amethyst> !lm rassilon crash -log 09:01:26 1. Rassilon, XL6 MiFi, T:3056 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Rassilon/crash-Rassilon-20130607-140041.txt 09:01:57 <|amethyst> oh, CAO webtiles seems to be wedged again 09:02:21 Webtiles server stopped. 09:02:39 Webtiles server started. 09:07:53 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:20:32 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:21:23 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:21:41 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:00 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:00 -!- Duralumin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:33:52 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 09:40:00 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:43:39 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 09:44:24 -!- radinms has quit [] 09:47:31 -!- Enthash has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:48:48 -!- anichowy has quit [Quit: anichowy] 09:48:59 -!- leStahL has quit [Quit: cya] 09:55:53 -!- ahpla has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:55:59 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:56:33 -!- C7ty1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:57:19 -!- yogidabear has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:57:41 -!- Duralumin has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:57:58 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 10:02:27 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:02 -!- Duralumin_ has quit [Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)] 10:07:09 |amethyst: if that happens again, try straceing the webtiles process and just terminating the crawl process it's blocking on 10:08:00 -!- myp has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:10:48 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 10:10:51 -!- scummos has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:11:37 -!- scummos has quit [Client Quit] 10:15:13 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:19:08 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1491-g2dff0df: Make mimic: and no_mimic meaningful for shop specs. 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 11+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2dff0df7ff0f 10:23:13 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:25:21 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:52 -!- Zermako has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:25:57 -!- Zermak is now known as Zermako 10:26:11 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:54 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1492-gad03a0f: Give more intelligent Forest denizens native-to-branch status. 10(5 minutes ago, 2 files, 6+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ad03a0fae582 10:46:50 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:48:06 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:50:28 Do slaying bonuses apply to breath weapons? 11:00:14 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 11:09:14 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:01 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:16:25 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:19:24 -!- jday_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:42 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: My work is end \(^o^)/] 11:27:01 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:35:54 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 11:40:09 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 11:42:24 -!- stabwound has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:43:09 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:47 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:49:55 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:41 haha 11:54:40 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:55:30 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Iceweasel 21.0/20130515140136]] 11:55:46 nope, breath does not get slaying 11:56:29 at least i couldn't find anything when searching the source just now 11:56:29 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:54 oh man 11:59:14 but if you have a mutation that gives you a breath weapon it will be twice as good when you are in dragon form 11:59:50 not a higher mut level but more power 12:01:11 -!- fdel has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:06:20 Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.12.2-4-g4c2672b 12:11:05 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:54 Did potion of experience get a change lately? 12:18:39 I seem to recall it giving reversely proportionate experience to your XL. (Thus less skill experience the higher your XL) 12:20:48 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:21:26 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1492-gad03a0f (34) 12:24:30 -!- Psyknux has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:35 -!- Jevouse has quit [] 12:27:15 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 12:27:51 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:28:27 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:03 Can blowguns have brands? 12:31:10 ??vorpalize weapon 12:31:11 scroll of vorpalise weapon[1/4]: Converts a single wielded weapon (which must be non-artifact, non-ego, and not a blowgun) into an equivalent weapon with a {vorpal brand}. Will make temporary freezing, flaming, electrocution, draining, venom, and chaos permanent. Doing this causes an appropriate effect (watch out for allies!): OTR, Refrig, or an explosion. 12:31:52 How do you get a temporary electrocution brand 12:31:55 ??electrocution 12:31:55 electrocution[1/1]: Weapon brand that causes your weapon to blast your target with an explosion of sparks on 1 out of every 3 hits, doing 9+d15 additional damage (which ignores AC). Does not work on targets with rElec. Does not work on levitating or flying targets in versions older than 0.13. 12:32:38 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:34:23 -!- mason- has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:37:29 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:39:22 -!- sym` has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:44:18 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:44:43 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:24 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:49:27 ??staff damage 12:49:28 staff damage[1/2]: Enhancer staves (fire, cold, air, earth, death) have (2*evoc + magic skill)/30 chance of getting random2(1.25*(magic skill + evoc/2)) extra damage that ignores AC (except earth), but checks the appropriate resistance. Air also needs to pass a (damage dealt + air + 1)/20 chance, and death a (necro + 1)/8 chance. 12:54:08 -!- fungee has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:21 <|amethyst> DrPraetor: blowguns can have the evasion brand, but that's all 12:55:31 <|amethyst> DrPraetor: and you can get temp electric brand with the Blade card 12:55:39 <|amethyst> DrPraetor: these might be better questions for ##crawl, though 12:56:36 <|amethyst> Bloax: it's 750 * you.experience level. However, remember that skill costs increase as you have more skill levels (both in that particular skill, *and* overall) 12:57:19 Skills require more experience the more experience you have invested in other skills? 12:58:13 <|amethyst> Bloax: yes, see calc_skill_cost in skills.cc 12:58:27 <|amethyst> "The progress of skill_cost_level depends only on total experience points" 13:00:16 I thought it was total skill points? Did that change? (/me dreads actually looking at that code again) 13:00:33 -!- LoremIpsum_ is now known as LoremIpsum 13:01:01 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:29 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:29 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:43 And yeah, sorry about mischan. 13:10:57 <|amethyst> DrPraetor: well, I believe skill points are just XP scaled by the skill_cost_level 13:11:26 I thought there were some funny stepdowns and things in the code various places (for spellcasting, for example)? 13:11:51 Someone might've cleaned all those up when manual training went in, it's been a while since I looked. 13:12:04 -!- Sudo has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:13:03 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 13:13:46 <|amethyst> those are on the skill-point-to-skill-level side 13:13:49 <|amethyst> s/are/were/ 13:13:58 <|amethyst> %git cb5881f 13:14:03 07galehar * 0.12-a0-220-gcb5881f: Remove the hidden special cost of some skills, adjust aptitudes. 10(9 months ago, 2 files, 131+ 147-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cb5881f43b3e 13:14:04 -!- Aponym has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:25 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:02 <|amethyst> As I understand it (elliptic knows this much better than me) it goes XP ---calc_skill_cost---> skill points ---skill_exp_needed, including apt etc---> skill level 13:17:30 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:19:34 Well I asked because potions of experience are nearly useless around the XL>20 point. 13:19:40 But thanks. 13:22:04 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:28:42 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35:49 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:41:05 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:46:02 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:54 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: No buffer space available] 13:51:16 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:54:57 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:56:06 -!- Pepe has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:09 -!- Guest48453 has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:54 is cerebov's castle supposed to be allowed to spawn floating in the lava in the cross layout, it looks absolutely ridiculous 14:03:31 -!- rchandra1 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:32 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:40 -!- diagram has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:06:16 -!- rchandra has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:06:51 mumra: is cerebov's castle supposed to be allowed to spawn floating in the lava in the cross layout, it looks absolutely ridiculous 14:07:12 -!- rchandra1 is now known as rchandra 14:07:33 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 14:08:45 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 14:10:12 -!- mason--- has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:10:40 -!- ackack has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:13:23 floating cerebov castle 14:13:47 cerebovalva 14:14:32 -!- Guest81510 is now known as magicpoints 14:14:55 that sounds cool 14:16:39 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 14:16:47 -!- Qwertycoatl has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:17:28 cerebovania 14:23:34 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 14:23:45 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:24:42 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:25:39 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:29:16 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:50 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:36:51 boulder beetle (15B) | Spd: 6 | HD: 9 | HP: 60-91 | AC/EV: 20/2 | Dam: 45 | Res: 06magic(36) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 159 | Sz: Big | Int: insect. 14:36:51 %??Boulder beetle 14:37:01 stone giant (15C) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 67-107 | AC/EV: 12/2 | Dam: 45 | 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(85), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2036 | Sz: Giant | Int: normal. 14:37:01 %??Stone giant 14:39:00 fire elemental, death cob, pan detected tile, ball lightning, balrug, cacodemon, fiends, green death, reaper, soul eater, sun demon, demonic crawler, hellion, hellwing, neqoxec, orange demon, hell beast, rotting devil, smoke demon, lemure, ufetubus, clay golem 14:39:50 electric golem, toenail golem, big fish (why), other water stuff,erica, glowing shapeshifter, killer klown, vault guard wow 14:40:13 (a lot is still in place from the look at crawl tiles from ages back on http://rltiles.sourceforge.net/dc-mon.html) 14:40:58 don't suppose anyone got a chance to try out exponential lava orcs yet? 14:41:09 -!- yalue has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:41:17 Exponential lava orcs? 14:41:47 Bloax: rewrite of the temperature formula so that it uses a halflife for decay 14:41:50 -!- g4spr0m has quit [Client Quit] 14:45:00 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:47:03 -!- heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:47:53 Do manuals work without reading them now? 14:48:14 yes 14:48:20 or is there a glitch when i...oohhh 14:48:33 thanks 14:48:36 * Medar wonders if that could be conveyed better somehow 14:48:55 Maybe add something to the description. 14:51:20 -!- syncopath has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:54:45 -!- crate has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:58:48 -!- Stumpsv has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:12 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:03:42 -!- DaneiTHREE has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:06:15 -!- caracal__ is now known as caracal 15:06:24 -!- caracal has quit [Changing host] 15:06:57 i can only use a constant number of lava orcs at a time 15:07:49 Zannick: hmm? 15:08:01 12:40:58 < Eronarn> don't suppose anyone got a chance to try out exponential lava orcs yet? 15:09:19 -!- lion_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:09:43 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:09:51 -!- ldf has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:53 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 15:15:22 -!- kek has left ##crawl-dev 15:16:28 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 15:17:42 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:17:51 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:33 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:12 -!- xnavy_ is now known as xnavy 15:21:10 !seen ontoclasm 15:21:11 I last saw ontoclasm at Fri Jun 7 15:48:06 2013 UTC (4h 33m 5s ago) quitting with message 'Quit: Leaving.'. 15:26:29 Oi, do the new elemental evocables produce hostile elementals? 15:26:53 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:27:01 ??elemental evocable 15:27:01 I don't have a page labeled elemental_evocable in my learndb. 15:27:03 ??elemental evokable 15:27:04 I don't have a page labeled elemental_evokable in my learndb. 15:27:06 ugh 15:28:04 ??Stone of tremors 15:28:05 stone of tremors[1/1]: The earth {elemental evoker} sends a shockwave through rock walls (you need to be adjacent to a rock wall to use it), which damages monsters and can (rarely) {shaft} them. Also summons up to 3 {earth elemental}s. 15:28:53 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:28:54 They do not 15:28:59 -!- crate_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:29:09 Thanks. 15:29:57 -!- sbanwart__ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:32:59 03galehar 07* 0.13-a0-1493-g0f4cf58: Set restricted skills to disabled by default with potion/card of experience. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0f4cf58055b1 15:33:01 -!- Thrkk has quit [Client Quit] 15:33:35 good idea 15:34:14 Indeed 15:36:08 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:25 -!- SaintWacko has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:39:39 -!- the_glow has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:42:09 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 15:42:22 -!- crate_ is now known as crate 15:42:39 !seen grunt 15:42:40 I last saw Grunt at Fri Jun 7 19:58:48 2013 UTC (43m 51s ago) saying 'You have a vampiric battleaxe, and you're asking what weapon to use?' on ##crawl. 15:43:11 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:33 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:44:10 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:49:05 -!- Chozo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:57 -!- fungee^ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:50:24 -!- pelotr0n is now known as pelotron 15:53:31 -!- krag has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:55:45 -!- Zermako has quit [] 16:00:14 how about changing the shield penalty and other tweaks? 16:00:15 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8265 16:00:35 -!- Namey has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:26 Make the penalty to blocking several attacks in a turn decrease with skill. | is probably the only thing in there that addresses them being weak for most characters, depending on how that works 16:04:53 -!- dosman711 is now known as dosman711` 16:05:09 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:06:23 man 16:06:27 shields are pretty good actually 16:06:52 Also I kind of suspect the effect of keeping size penalty for trolls wouldn't actually be to make them consider not using shields, but to make them not consider using large shields very much 16:07:05 !seen kilobyte 16:07:06 you will survive longer with a shield and a good 1 hander than with no shield and a 2 hander 16:07:06 I last saw kilobyte at Fri Jun 7 01:52:21 2013 UTC (19h 14m 45s ago) saying 'a great read, too' on ##crawl-dev. 16:07:07 -!- dienosore has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:07:39 I've found that I almost die much less with a shield than without one. 16:07:43 !tell kilobyte any plan on resuming the translation project and include other stuff than descriptions? 16:07:45 galehar: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 16:07:45 it's more survivability, less killing power, and being unable to kill things as fast can be problematic sometimes 16:07:50 given a fixed amount of xp distributed optimally between relavent skills 16:08:36 Well I found it much better to use bloodbane and a shield than sword of the doom knight. 16:09:00 well, the first part of my proposal is that you can no longer eliminate the penalty, so it's fair to buff them a bit to compensate even if they are already good 16:09:30 statistically, the old staff mechanic of halving damage actually balances shields with 2 handers 16:09:40 (they are not already good) 16:09:57 not accounting for high ac monsters effect 16:10:06 well they're good if you're a monster... 16:10:37 and they're also good for characters that are not primarily meleeing 16:10:41 clearly good for beoghites and yredelemnulers 16:10:50 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5902 16:10:52 check out my comment in the middle there 16:10:57 good if you get a profane servitor to pick up a large shield or something 16:11:12 then it's suddenly discount Mennas 16:11:56 yeah this analysis is using monsters with shields, not players with 16:12:03 no, it's using both 16:12:16 read past the first part 16:12:30 or look at the data from pastebin 16:13:02 possibly the other consideration is that if the speed penalty is gone, it's possible that using a shield at 0 skill with a good onehander is decent/efficient 16:13:16 like for a very large part of the game on some characters 16:13:37 <|amethyst> !tell Grunt red and white drac breath could use the new targetter... the current one doesn't show green crystal bouncing 16:13:38 |amethyst: OK, I'll let grunt know. 16:13:41 since the accuracy penalty as it exists now is not terribly bad in practice... 16:13:49 also, late game you can get extra resists on randart shields 16:13:58 which is worth something 16:14:07 late game shields are also almost totally useless so there's that 16:14:35 shields with a good ego aren't terribly common, so you'd need such a randart shield to actually exist first 16:14:56 -!- Naruni has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:06 Aside from all the other points, I strongly oppose removing size's effect on shields. I think it's actually a quite meaningful distinction, and removing it would actually be a nerf to nearly everyone using shields, too 16:15:11 -!- lion_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:15:13 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:15:19 equally dividing xp amongst skills does not resemble what "good" or "bad" builds are 16:15:22 you see them fairly often if you go past the first 3 runes 16:15:26 Since it means getting a bunch lower SH value for basically all races 16:15:32 the biggest nerf would be trolls needing very high skill for large shields 16:15:42 although then again they may not actually need it.... 16:16:07 And I don't think 'it's unthematic for trolls to use shields' is a very reasonable justification, when trolls can already go around casting high level magic 16:16:09 unless the UC penalty stays for some reason 16:16:26 but still, shields came out with like 150% as many kills as 2 hander guys 16:16:34 Crawl has always allowed plenty of flexibility of player characters from their starting archetypes. I don't see why this is differet. 16:16:43 what do you mean as many kills 16:16:43 which is a big difference 16:16:51 in the tests i did 16:17:00 what are these tests 16:17:08 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5902 16:17:12 but people use more than just autofight to deal with monsters over and over 16:17:13 ah 16:17:36 yeah, but the point remains that shields give you a pretty big advantage 16:17:40 -!- Naruni has joined ##crawl-dev 16:17:45 the problem is that forcing fights to the death doesn't really represent actual crawl tactics well 16:17:49 that doesn't sound like a very meaningful test, yes 16:17:56 and also shields are super OP on monsters 16:18:21 it's just an attempt to calculate average damage sustained and given 16:18:29 like if you've ever seen some random weak monster pick up a large shield and suddenly be nearly unkillable.... 16:18:33 For what it's worth, I think that shields are a lot better than they are usually given credit, but I feel that's sort of a side point to some of the changes proposed 16:18:46 yes the balance isn't really the point 16:18:55 DracoOmega: remove the size modifier would only nerf Tr and Og, not all races 16:19:12 bucklers on sp, ko, ha 16:19:17 also na and ce but they can take it 16:19:24 well those are penalties on the small races 16:19:38 galehar: It means a lot less SH for bucklers and such on small races, and they CAN'T opt to train for the larger shields since they can't use them 16:19:39 DracoOmega: imagining a Troll (or a ghoul) clawing through its victims while holding a shield hurts my mind 16:19:40 since it is pretty silly that they get shield bonuses for no particularly good reason 16:20:12 as opposed to the victims being hyper dangerous klowns 16:20:19 Making the penalty on shields unremovable probably means one set of characters wants them much less than previously also 16:20:40 galehar: As opposed to one clawing through its victims while carting around a collection of rods to throw lightning at its enemies? 16:20:44 that being primary spellcasters who don't really want their spell fail mucked with 16:20:50 DracoOmega: well, we could keep the size modifier for SH and just remove the effect of size on penalty then 16:21:04 galehar: Or one that decides to go around throwing fireballs instead? 16:21:20 did I say klowns I meant killer bees 16:22:02 -!- Enthash2 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:22:20 What is the actual PROBLEM with large shields being relatively better for large races? 16:22:22 DracoOmega: yeah, somehow, it bothers me more, but maybe it's just me 16:22:33 Since I don't think 'it looks silly in my mind' is a particularly great reason for a large balance change, to be honest 16:22:46 <|amethyst> why not just prevent trolls from wearing shields? 16:22:46 would it hurt your mind less if you imagined the troll bashing things with the shield (even though crawl mechanics don't represent that at all, of course) 16:22:47 not a big deal. Although, it seems to be almost a no-brainer for trolls to use a shield at some point 16:23:00 it makes perfect sense to me that big races are better at using big shields 16:23:00 I mean there's no reason something with a shield couldn't be fighting as brutally as something without 16:23:14 yes, since the big shields are sized better for them 16:23:19 |amethyst: Why? 16:23:20 <|amethyst> or make shields cut unarmed damage in half 16:23:25 ... 16:23:28 shields already do bad things to UC 16:23:32 Shields already reduce unarmed damage considerable 16:23:33 <|amethyst> so 16:23:35 is that last one an actual suggestion :P 16:23:41 it's just that trolls have very good UC and defence problems 16:23:48 <|amethyst> if the goal is to make it so that trolls don't wear shields 16:23:51 yeah they just really need to get their defense from somewhere 16:23:54 |amethyst: Why is that a goal? 16:23:56 why is that 16:23:58 dang it 16:23:59 lol 16:24:02 <|amethyst> I thought it was the goal? 16:24:04 DracoOmega: anyway, the change to penalty (can't remove it completely) is the important part of the proposal 16:24:05 yes we're arguing it shouldn't be, all of us, apparently 16:24:20 Like I resist shields as long as I can on my trolls 16:24:36 which part did you want to change, accuracy? cast? speed? 16:24:38 but eventually I always feel that I need to get one 16:24:52 for -some- reason, either resists or general defense 16:25:25 the speed penalty is completely removed but accuracy/casting say and can't ever go away, right 16:25:43 that sounds pretty okay 16:25:45 |amethyst: the goal isn't to prevent them, but to make trolls a bit more varied. I have the impression they always use one 16:25:46 I mean that would be a minor nerf to anyone meleeing with shields but not really much 16:26:07 i think it's better to try for dragon armour with trolls 16:26:07 since -2 accuracy isn't a big deal 16:26:13 because it hurts uc a lot 16:26:30 if trolls were to be more varied 16:26:39 galehar: They use one quite frequently, sure, but why is that automatically a problem? They use their claws even more frequently, no matter if they start as a FE or whatnot 16:26:40 wouldn't it be good to make them only do unarmed 16:26:52 erm, not 16:27:13 -!- SaintWacko_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:27:15 the casting penalty would be the only one left that matters with removal like that, anyway 16:27:17 fr: all trolls start with a bone plate shield 16:27:22 lol 16:27:22 Some races have a strong gravitation towards particular things, and this seems fine 16:27:58 DracoOmega: increasing choice is good right? Right now, the choice between using one or not is a bit imbalanced (and thematically in the wrong way but that's secondary) 16:28:02 OberWan (L27 MiBe) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 576: invalid feature 0 at (30,25) (Abyss:3) 16:28:05 (it is kind of telling that flat apt gimmick races are usually thought of as more interesting) 16:28:20 <|amethyst> galehar: then wouldn't the solution be to increase the UC penalties? 16:28:35 <|amethyst> rather than make shields worse for ogres, nagas, and centaurs too? 16:28:36 it's also a no brainer for mibe to wear heavy armour 16:28:52 it's a nobrainer for DEFE to use sticky flame and fireball 16:29:00 i think shields being tipped in the direction of much more likely useful than not for large races is a nice change from most other races 16:29:00 no brainer to get the orb 16:29:16 and there is certainly the decision of *when* to start wearing one, etc. 16:29:28 galehar: I don't think that nerfing shields for them is a good way to increase diversity, and some races are less diverse anyway. I mean, trolls are pretty much always going to use their claws a lot, no matter their background or other skills, for example 16:29:40 |amethyst: The UC penalites for shields are already very noticable 16:29:49 <|amethyst> then why do all trolls use shields? 16:29:55 -!- hjklyubn has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:57 i almost never do as a troll 16:30:01 Because their UC is really good, and their other defenses really poor 16:30:04 because they need the defense yes 16:30:05 So for them, the tradeoff is more appealing 16:30:09 -!- pythonsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:30:11 Than it is for other races 16:30:18 shield penalty for UC on a troll *is* noticeable 16:30:19 if you can hold out till you get dragon armour you won't need a shield ever 16:30:23 it's a trade-off 16:30:26 they already get a big unarmed bonus anyway so they can make the trade 16:30:28 -!- MDesigner is now known as Guest44065 16:30:49 And I think that is actually GOOD, incidentally. That some races can afford this tradeoff more easily than others. It is interracial diversity, really 16:31:10 Since you may make different choices when playing UC on a troll than UC on a ghoul or something else 16:31:16 another idea is to use a stat modifier instead of size. So shields work more like armour 16:31:25 crawl, not a melting pot, more of a tossed salad 16:31:53 <|amethyst> galehar: wouldn't making shields depend on str would only make them more attractive to trolls (relative to other species)? 16:32:00 <|amethyst> galehar: dex might make more sense 16:32:02 it might be good to take the conservative option and only change one thing at a time 16:32:12 Size affecting how well you can use really large shields seems plenty intuitive to me 16:32:24 isn't it good for shields to work differently to armour, so that they involve different choices 16:32:30 Also that 16:32:32 like just change that the penalties can't be totally removed 16:32:33 |amethyst: could use a str weighting so dex is good for buckler and str for large shields 16:32:41 that is uh 16:32:43 shields already do that 16:32:45 that is how the sh works 16:32:46 that already sort of happens 16:32:46 <|amethyst> galehar: but if the problem is trolls and large shields 16:32:46 for stats 16:33:02 yeah, that's what crate told me 16:33:09 can't remember how that works 16:33:13 <|amethyst> galehar: that seems like it would either make the problem worse, or make shields worse for everybody else much more 16:33:14 not that you're going to raise your stats according to what shield you want in any case 16:33:14 maybe just buff the effect then 16:34:17 later fellas, good luck with the discussion 16:34:19 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:34:37 I mean small races have dex and large one have str already. So maybe the size modifier is a bit redundant 16:35:02 -!- heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 16:35:12 better to have a fewer factors with stronger effects 16:35:41 Well, small races need more shield skill to remove penalties, even on the shields that give them more SH due to size 16:36:11 -!- Wark- has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:36:27 -!- LexAckson has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:37:02 -!- Enthash has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:28 -!- ragingrage has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:38:41 ok, so if we keep the size modifiers, can we at least change the penalty so that you can't remove it at skill x? A bit like armour 16:39:07 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:48 should definitely do that, yeah 16:40:24 At the very least, I feel they should be buffed somewhat in some way to compensate for essentially being worse 16:41:02 I do think making the spellcasting penalty unremovable probably hurts diversity for a lot of spellcasting builds 16:41:02 DracoOmega: so, you haven't read the tavern post I linked earlier? 16:41:21 galehar: I did. I was just agreeing on that point. 16:41:26 ok 16:41:37 galehar: I am not sure my feelings on the specific manner of buffing 16:41:56 Just that SOME kind of buff ought to happen in compensation 16:41:57 just because it overloads their penalty mitigation 16:42:02 i don't think wearing a buckler and training SH to 2 is particularly "diverse" 16:42:21 the removal of one-handed speed penalty was suggested by evilmike a while ago 16:42:29 s/2/1 16:42:32 Well, it would help fighter starts, anyway 16:42:42 Am I the only one that still trains shields to 5 for a buckler, I wonder? 16:42:49 no 16:43:00 (Of course, I use normal sized shields frequently on all kinds of builds, too) 16:43:05 Really what I mean is it makes it harder for them to wear something that's not a robe 16:43:07 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:43:07 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 16:43:17 well it depends whether you're hitting things or not i imagine but either way, i don't think making shields require some actual skill investment for primary casters is a problem in any way at all 16:43:23 <|amethyst> galehar: what should be the buckler->shield->lshield progression for players who can use all three? 16:43:24 probably what should actually change there is the penalty mitigation itself 16:44:01 For what it's worth, I think a lot of primary casters can already afford unmitigated shield penalties for their spells without noticing it that strongly 16:44:05 They just don't do it 16:44:07 <|amethyst> galehar: I mean, should the new formulas encourage switching once your skill is sufficiently high? 16:44:10 we can allow some things to be slightly spoily if the alternative seems worse. Or we could put the spoiler in the description. 16:44:14 I mean 'not fully mitigated' 16:44:23 Not 'completely unmitigated', by the way 16:44:36 I think they could but then also couldn't do it with anything much heavier than mottled dragon armour 16:44:58 like if you wanted to use a shield with FDA now that would actually be really bad for a lot of builds that would've done it before probably 16:45:01 -!- Guest44065 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:45:15 well, while we're at it, we should change the EVP to encumbrance rating to make it consistent with armour 16:45:32 that's probably reasonable/good 16:45:34 but should stats be factored in the penalty formula like for armour? 16:45:36 -!- Enthash has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:45:47 -!- SaintWacko has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:46:12 would make sense to me that being stronger possibly helps with holding a shield constantly 16:47:33 Another solution to the no skill buckler problem would just be making shields bad at low skill 16:47:39 <|amethyst> maybe str for the penalty formula and dex for the SH bonus? 16:48:11 like maybe the real problem with having a buckler at 1 SH is that it shouldn't actually be able to block much because it's a buckler and you don't know how to use it 16:48:14 |amethyst: If stats are going to matter more, I think they should use weightings based on the type of shield, as the SH bonus currently does 16:48:28 (and by SH I meant skill there) 16:48:44 SwissStopwatch: Well, you actually DON'T block a whole lot with a buckler at 1 skill 16:48:48 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 16:48:48 -!- Enthash has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:52 And you will certainly block more with 5 SH 16:48:53 yes 9 SH isn't much 16:48:56 skill* 16:49:07 but like 2 SH or something would be even less presumably 16:50:16 DracoOmega: then, we could use the same formula as for armour, but buckler use dex, shield use avg of dex and str and large shield use str 16:50:37 Perhaps, yes 16:51:06 Well... this would have the side-effect of a lot of casty races having an even HARDER time with larger shields than previously 16:51:22 If not only can they not fully remove penalties, but their stats are extra bad at helping offset this 16:51:53 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 16:52:11 -!- RZX has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 16:52:17 that probably would not be terrible as long as more rounded races don't have that kind of problem 16:52:24 clearly they should pick strength on levelup then! 16:52:34 like HuCj being better than DECj at using a shield sounds perfectly fine 16:52:59 They have a better shield apt already 16:53:05 By a nice bit, even 16:53:10 yes 16:53:10 So that is already true 16:53:16 <|amethyst> and a better armour apt 16:53:24 I think this might just make disfavored options even MORE disfavored, is what I am saying 16:53:34 Which is not really good for diversity, either 16:53:44 that's possible, yeah 16:53:45 well it's not currently disfavoured at all 16:53:56 so making it more disfavoured sounds good 16:54:11 although DE is kind of an acceptable target for being bad at defense 16:54:44 surely wth their ridiculous casting apts they can put the effort into shields if they really want to anyway :P 16:55:05 right, they can afford to put more than 1 point into shields if they want to use shields 16:55:24 I think we may be arguing about different things 16:55:31 possibly 10% different 16:55:35 but kind of the same thing 16:55:36 I was talking about the heavier shields 16:55:49 oh i missed the larger bit, yeah 16:55:54 the weighting wouldn't hurt DE with bucklers presumably 16:55:58 Putting more points in to use lighter shields is fine 16:56:00 they have reasonable Dex 16:56:13 But I mean that DE's already don't usually want to use larger shields over bucklers, and making them more str-based would push this even further 16:56:20 <|amethyst> yeah, making bucklers use dex weight and larger shields use more str would only encourage DE to stop at bucklers more than they already do 16:56:21 Combined with adding unremovable penalties 16:56:27 -!- C7ty1 has quit [] 16:56:46 <|amethyst> except to the extent they're enouraged to stop before bucklers :) 16:56:50 in the case of DE that's not necessarily a terrible thing... it already works that way with their armour, after all 16:57:02 and there's no huge push to make DE good at using plate 16:57:35 I am not saying that it is bad for DE balance or armour or whatnot that they probably don't want to use heavy shields, but I tend to think that making stat weighting affect formulas more heavily would have the general effect of reducing diversity across the board instead of increasing it 16:57:38 If a shield that's good enough to want to use exists, they'll probably still find a way to use it 16:58:11 crawl stat balance is weird to begin with anyway 16:59:36 I think averaging dex+str is probably either awkward for everybody or not really a problem for anyone though 17:00:02