00:05:46 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1420-g28137fc (34) 00:06:29 !wtf dj 00:06:31 WTF was that? Unthing! 00:06:37 !wtf he 00:06:38 High Elf or Healer 00:06:44 !wtf Henzell 00:06:45 Unemployed High Elf 00:06:55 eh? 00:07:01 !wtf Sequell 00:07:02 Unemployed Sludge Elf 00:07:09 !wtf Sizzell 00:07:10 Unemployed Unperson 00:07:19 this thing needs work 00:07:30 !wtf you 00:07:31 WTF was that? Unthing! 00:07:43 !wtf kahn 00:07:44 Unemployed Unperson 00:07:48 !wtf khan 00:07:49 Unemployed Unperson 00:08:36 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:12:27 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 00:13:09 -!- kaiza has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:13:41 -!- Kalir has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:40 -!- Sky2 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:15:27 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 00:19:14 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 00:23:03 -!- lion has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:27:01 <|amethyst> !apt lo 00:27:02 LO: Fighting: 2, Short: 0, Long: 1, Axes: 2, Maces: 1, Polearms: 1, Staves: -1, Slings: -2, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: -1, Armour: 1, Dodge: -2, Stealth: -1, Stab: 2, Shields: 1, Traps: 0, UC: 1!, Splcast: -3, Conj: 0, Hexes: 0, Charms: -1, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 3!, Fire: 2!, Ice: -4*, Air: -3, Earth: 1, Poison: -1, Inv: 3!, Evo: 1, Exp: -1, HP: 1, MP: 0 00:27:04 <|amethyst> !apt dj 00:27:05 Dj: Fighting: , Short: , Long: , Axes: , Maces: , Polearms: , Staves: , Slings: , Bows: , Xbows: , Throw: , Armour: , Dodge: , Stealth: , Stab: , Shields: , Traps: , UC: , Splcast: , Conj: , Hexes: , Charms: , Summ: , Nec: , Tloc: , Tmut: , Fire: , Ice: , Air: , Earth: , Poison: , Inv: , Evo: , Exp: , HP: , MP: 00:27:06 <|amethyst> !apt gr 00:27:07 Gr: Fighting: 1, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -1, Maces: 1, Polearms: -1, Staves: 1, Slings: -1, Bows: 0, Xbows: 0, Throw: 0, Armour: -2, Dodge: -1, Stealth: 2, Stab: 0, Shields: -2, Traps: -1, UC: 1!, Splcast: -1, Conj: 1, Hexes: -1, Charms: -2, Summ: -1, Nec: -3*, Tloc: -1, Tmut: -1, Fire: -1, Ice: 1, Air: -3, Earth: 3!, Poison: 0, Inv: 1, Evo: 0, Exp: 0, HP: 1, MP: 0 00:27:20 <|amethyst> hmm 00:27:22 <|amethyst> oh 00:27:41 <|amethyst> !apt dj 00:27:41 Dj: Fighting: -1, Short: -2, Long: 1, Axes: -1, Maces: 0, Polearms: 1, Staves: 1, Slings: 0, Bows: -1, Xbows: 1, Throw: -1, Armour: 1, Dodge: -1, Stealth: -1, Stab: , Shields: 0, Traps: -1, UC: -1, Splcast: 1, Conj: 1, Hexes: 2, Charms: 0, Summ: 0, Nec: -2, Tloc: 0, Tmut: 0, Fire: 3!, Ice: -3, Air: 2, Earth: -3*, Poison: -1, Inv: 1, Evo: 2, Exp: -1, HP: -1, MP: 0 00:28:34 <|amethyst> !tell greensnark a new data commit in branch cao-new of Henzell on CAO 00:28:35 |amethyst: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 00:29:46 Ellick (L12 KoHe) ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1343: bogus mc (no monster data): invalid monster_type 1000 (1000) (Orc:2) 00:30:25 <|amethyst> !tell greensnark http://dobrazupa.org/patches/henzell-Add-new-races-uniques-and-branch.patch 00:30:26 |amethyst: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 00:30:37 <|amethyst> !lm Ellick crash -log 00:30:38 1. Ellick, XL12 KoHe, T:14138 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Ellick/crash-Ellick-20130604-052944.txt 00:31:13 <|amethyst> pacified monster kept acting after taking the stairs maybe? 00:32:20 inb4 taking stairs becomes a fineff 00:34:21 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 00:34:48 -!- Vizer__ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:35:05 <|amethyst> ah, beogh code 00:38:23 <|amethyst> doesn't need to be a fineff, but there's a lot of stuff in behaviour_event() after the handle_behaviour() call that could be problematic 00:40:32 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:40:53 -!- Dixlet has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:40:58 -!- Mattias has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:42:58 -!- Mattias has joined ##crawl-dev 00:47:26 -!- Mattias has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:49:11 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 00:49:28 -!- Mattias has joined ##crawl-dev 00:51:34 -!- kaiza has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:07 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 00:53:58 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 01:05:16 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:15:45 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 01:20:53 -!- eb has quit [] 01:21:19 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:22:15 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 01:23:06 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 01:25:39 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1421-g48bc299: Avoid crashes on pacified monsters leaving the level. 10(38 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=48bc299f29d6 01:25:39 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1422-gd65c940: Don't steal while pacified (#7112). 10(20 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d65c9407a00b 01:25:39 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1423-g1369a2a: Avoid a few instances of Djinn "HP" (#7152) 10(12 minutes ago, 2 files, 5+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1369a2a7444d 01:25:39 03Medar 07* 0.13-a0-1424-g06ee7f8: Only send the game state to the joining spectator 10(8 hours ago, 4 files, 31+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=06ee7f8badf1 01:26:33 -!- eurtek has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:27:40 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:32:11 -!- Arivia has quit [Quit: rivs is afk (probably sleeping)] 01:33:19 -!- spaz is now known as Guest47738 01:35:47 -!- qoala has joined ##crawl-dev 01:38:52 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: BRB, DEAD] 01:39:55 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1424-g06ee7f8 (34) 01:42:46 Webtiles server stopped. 01:42:59 Webtiles server started. 01:42:59 hammer time. 01:43:22 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:57 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 01:44:22 bonglord (L14 GrEE) ASSERT(count == 1 || you.where_are_you == root_branch) in 'dungeon.cc' at line 1445 failed. (Orc:1) 01:45:14 -!- cindy_k has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:47:14 <|amethyst> !lm * cv=0.13 crash noun~~root_branch s=noun 01:47:15 No milestones for * (cv=0.13 crash noun~~root_branch). 01:48:18 <|amethyst> !lm * cv=0.13 crash s=noun 01:48:18 No milestones for * (cv=0.13 crash). 01:48:28 <|amethyst> !lm * cv=~0.13 crash noun~~root_branch s=noun 01:48:29 9 milestones for * (cv=~0.13 crash noun~~root_branch): 9x ASSERT(count == 1 || you.where are you == root branch) in 'dungeon.cc' at line 1445 failed. 01:48:37 -!- Gendal has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:48:42 <|amethyst> !lm * cv=~0.13 crash noun~~root_branch s=place 01:48:42 9 milestones for * (cv=~0.13 crash noun~~root_branch): 2x Snake:1, 2x Orc:1, Swamp:1, Spider:1, Forest:1, Lair:1, Shoals:1 01:49:08 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:16 -!- Guest47738 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:00:27 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:01:02 Changes to box generation in layouts, layout_gehenna_???, layout_city by infiniplex 02:07:05 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 02:10:49 -!- dagonfive has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:14:21 -!- adam_ has quit [Client Quit] 02:14:37 -!- adam_ is now known as heteroy 02:18:00 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:18:05 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:20:05 -!- whog has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:25:42 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:11 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 02:34:54 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 02:35:48 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 02:37:39 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:38:51 fr: forest dragons 02:39:16 Breath attack is a gust of wind that can knock you back a few squares 02:39:34 (similar to the new fan of gales, except on you) 02:40:08 don't forest drakes already exist or something 02:40:40 yes, and there are corresponding dragons for each drake 02:40:52 fire > regular, swamp > swamp. death > shadow 02:40:55 they don't always correspond exactly 02:41:02 and not every dragon has a drake 02:41:14 I know 02:43:50 -!- BlinkFrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:50:15 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:14 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:53:14 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 02:59:11 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:01:35 -!- Notorion has quit [] 03:03:09 -!- Gmork has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:14:50 -!- Raycaster has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:15:13 -!- kittH has quit [] 03:15:42 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Pacra] 03:18:06 -!- heteroy has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:18:41 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 03:21:15 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:21:20 -!- Arivia has quit [Quit: Arivia] 03:22:52 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:23:27 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 03:24:06 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 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04:04:54 -!- Naruni has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:06:01 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:11:28 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:22:29 Djinni not able to set fire to their feet with spell books by Grandiloquent Gentleman 04:24:29 mmm 04:31:27 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:39:34 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 04:43:35 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:44:31 -!- Naruni has joined ##crawl-dev 04:45:09 -!- fdel is now known as Nexos 04:46:51 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:46:52 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 04:49:00 -!- cindy_k_away is now known as cindy_k 04:49:57 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:52:54 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:52:54 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 04:53:05 -!- lordfrikk has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 24.0a1/20130602031240]] 04:57:12 -!- kait has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:05:06 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:11:34 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:13:10 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:13:53 -!- BonSequitur has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:10 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:16:48 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:16:48 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 05:21:25 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:22:12 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:03 -!- qoala has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:31:23 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 05:31:46 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:28 -!- Nikolaos has quit [] 05:45:56 -!- qoala has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46:28 Should BEAM_BOLT_OF_ZIN apply bonus damage to monsters with ENCH_WRETCHED? It's currently the closest thing we have to monster mutations. Likewise for silver ammo, probably. 05:48:25 -!- dienosore has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:55:08 -!- mnoqy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:57:18 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 05:58:50 -!- Adeonicorn is now known as Adeonasus 06:00:08 unknown monster: "gold dragon" 06:00:08 %??gold dragon hd:100 06:00:13 golden dragon (08D) | Spd: 10 | HD: 100 | HP: 558-644 | AC/EV: 15/7 | Dam: 40, 20, 2007(trample) | see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(1066), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 15000 | Sp: b.fire (3d117), b.cold (3d117), poisonous cloud (3d51) | Sz: Huge | Int: animal. 06:00:13 %??golden dragon hd:100 06:12:38 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:12:57 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:14:17 -!- santiago_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:18:19 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:37 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:20:38 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 06:22:27 -!- bmfx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:29:20 -!- sacje has quit [Quit: sacje] 06:35:13 The silver bolt engulfs the silver star. 06:35:13 The silver star is seared! 06:35:13 The silver star dies! 06:35:24 own bolt of Zin 06:40:52 -!- whog has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:47:55 -!- Eldarby has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:47:57 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:48:14 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:48:23 rubinko (L21 SpEn) ERROR: range check error (-1 / 70) (D (Sprint)) 06:54:50 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 07:00:34 Are silver stars actually vulnerable to wretchedness? 07:16:59 no, strictly immune 07:17:42 it shot at me point-blank and got hit by own explosion 07:18:41 which should have done zero damage, as bolt of Zin is 100% resistible, and naturals without evil/chaotic spells or an evil god are immune 07:20:33 -!- Stelpa has quit [Quit: Butts] 07:21:05 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 07:21:55 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:23:53 -!- reaver has joined ##crawl-dev 07:24:42 -!- Villadelfia has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:24:47 -!- Sealer has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:25:45 -!- Nexos is now known as fdel 07:32:21 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 07:36:08 -!- yogidabear has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:37:27 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:37:27 -!- qoala has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:39:40 -!- reaver_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:40:03 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-1425-geac4af4: Make the djinni glyph 'R'. 10(25 hours ago, 1 file, 15+ 14-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=eac4af4867a4 07:40:03 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-1426-g46a8b51: Avoid round-off errors on bolt of Zin. 10(74 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=46a8b51d9297 07:40:03 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-1427-g1ea4ae9: Make monsters suffer if they get mutated then bolt-of-Zinned. 10(58 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1ea4ae9e406b 07:41:47 -!- reaver has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:51:18 rubinko (L22 SpEn) ERROR: range check error (70 / 70) (D (Sprint)) 07:57:49 -!- reaver_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:01:26 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:01:30 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:04:18 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:08:23 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:16:33 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 08:21:34 -!- qoala has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:58 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:16 kilobyte: wait, the first case in monster damage to BOLT_OF_ZIN is (mons->chaotic() && !mons->is_unclean()) 08:23:31 errr... s/is_unclean()/is_unclean(false)/ 08:23:44 notably, if the monster is NOT inherently unclean, it takes full damage 08:24:48 ... 08:25:58 does this fix silver stars killing themselves? 08:26:52 they're not inherently unclean, yes 08:26:56 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-1428-gf733651: Fix a scale change I've forgotten. 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f7336510e5e1 08:26:56 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-1429-g411bc84: Give feedback for different cases of bolt of Zin vs monsters. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=411bc8487f1e 08:26:56 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-1430-g3757484: Fix monsters who are _not_ thoroughly unclean suffering full damage. 10(63 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3757484e728e 08:27:16 well spotted 08:27:46 fortunately silver stars for practical matters don't exist 08:28:43 ah, Ziggurats, they kind of do 08:28:51 There's also the one zin temple vault. I consider myself lucky when it comes with Mennas. 08:29:57 ah yes, on D:25-27 08:31:12 I probably wouldn't have noticed it if I hadn't both been (1) examining the code to consider the ramifications of giving BOLT_OF_ZIN to the player as in an unrand proposed on GDD and (2) reacting to your confusing message log at the same time 08:32:29 -!- Harms_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:33:18 -!- ontoclasm1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:10 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:50:07 03kilobyte 07[stone_soup-0.12] * 0.12.2-2-g527d14f: Fix monsters who are _not_ thoroughly unclean suffering full damage. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=527d14f1a0b6 08:52:47 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 08:58:03 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:03:59 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:11 -!- Sealer has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:13:58 -!- Villadelfia has joined ##crawl-dev 09:17:45 -!- qoala has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:21:04 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:22:58 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:24:28 -!- Duralumin has quit [Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)] 09:25:01 I need some recommendations - can people mention some of the hardest race-class combinations? 09:27:17 TZer0: muck? 09:28:21 that sounds.. dirty 09:28:35 :P 09:28:56 ontoclasm1: I want something which isn't cat /dev/random 09:28:57 :P 09:29:52 hah 09:30:14 I mean.. MuBe is more like it etc. 09:32:02 teee? gham? 09:32:57 :D 09:33:07 -!- orionstein has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 09:33:31 !lg * recent s=char / won o=-% 09:33:36 3772/556048 games for * (recent): 0/1x MDFi [0.00%], 0/1x LOAE [0.00%], 0/1x ElFE [0.00%], 0/1x LOEn [0.00%], 0/2x GrAE [0.00%], 0/2x LOSu [0.00%], 0/3x GrVM [0.00%], 0/3x LOAM [0.00%], 0/4x LOAs [0.00%], 0/4x GrAM [0.00%], 0/4x LOWr [0.00%], 0/4x LOWz [0.00%], 0/4x GrWr [0.00%], 0/5x GrHu [0.00%], 0/6x GrSu [0.00%], 0/7x GrNe [0.00%], 0/7x LOCj [0.00%], 0/7x DjAs [0.00%], 0/106x LOAK [0.00%], 0/8... 09:33:50 !lg * recent playable race!=lo race!=dj race!=gr s=char / won o=-% 09:33:52 -!- djanatyn has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:33:57 3704/543565 games for * (recent playable race!=lo race!=dj race!=gr): 1/6094x OpWn [0.02%], 1/2987x HEWn [0.03%], 1/2500x DrWn [0.04%], 1/2472x HONe [0.04%], 1/1852x TeWn [0.05%], 3/4027x DgWn [0.07%], 1/1292x HaWn [0.08%], 2/2102x DgSk [0.10%], 1/980x DEAE [0.10%], 1/976x OgWn [0.10%], 4/3646x HuWn [0.11%], 3/2719x HEFi [0.11%], 2/1709x DDWn [0.12%], 4/3192x VpWz [0.13%], 1/752x DrCK [0.13%], 1/7... 09:34:38 !lg * !boring recent playable race!=lo race!=dj race!=gr s=char / won o=-% 09:34:44 3704/471276 games for * (!boring recent playable race!=lo race!=dj race!=gr): 1/2372x HONe [0.04%], 1/1195x OpWn [0.08%], 1/1068x DrWn [0.09%], 1/890x DEAE [0.11%], 3/2313x HEFi [0.13%], 1/734x DrCK [0.14%], 2/1462x DgSk [0.14%], 1/714x OgCK [0.14%], 8/5499x SETm [0.15%], 4/2736x VpWz [0.15%], 1/670x OgSk [0.15%], 4/2316x DsTm [0.17%], 1/578x VpCj [0.17%], 1/553x DsSu [0.18%], 7/3850x OpTm [0.18%]... 09:37:09 ...enough info for you? :b 09:44:52 !oldestwon 09:44:54 Least recently won combos: DDTm HOAE VpTm TrVM MiEn DrWn HaEn HECK GhVM SpDK SpAE SpPr DrCK HaHe DDGl OgSk GhAE TrIE MuWr DDWn SpIE DDSu NaVM DsSu HEWn OgCK DrPr HEAs MfAM SETm HaPr HaTm HaDK CePr KoCK MuAs DETm OgAE HOWr SECK MiTm VpVM DEHe HOEE GhDK MuMo VpCj SECj HaWn NaSk MuEn NaAM MfHu CeWz GhSu SENe DDIE SpSu DrEE DEFi MfNe VpDK MuDK MiNe GhAM DDAE HaEE DrAs CeEn HOAr NaHe MuGl MiAM HuEn CeE... 09:46:26 -!- pythonsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:48:25 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 09:48:47 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:55:19 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 09:55:42 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 10:01:22 -!- tureba has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:01:27 -!- Yllodra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:01:34 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:04 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 10:05:32 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 10:10:45 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:11:43 -!- g4spr0m has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:14:18 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:15:32 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:16:54 ...not-at-all-serious change of the moment: http://sprunge.us/ZXYd 10:18:28 that doesn't look like it lets you get enough ! 10:18:38 IMO use a linear scale instead 10:18:41 -!- ontoclasm1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:18:52 <|amethyst> Grunt: why >>= ? 10:19:06 <|amethyst> Grunt: do you like to pretend you're a Haskell programmer? 10:19:29 I learned to program in an era where efficiency was especially important. :b 10:20:25 elliptic: http://sprunge.us/hjCj 10:20:44 The helpless Cerebov fails to defend himself. You skewer Cerebov like a kebab!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You kill Cerebov! 10:21:04 Console Android UI nit: "Crawl keyboard" does not contain - or ' by ystael 10:21:05 looks just like sil now 10:21:08 Perfect! 10:21:26 (And yes, I did this based on watching Sil play the other day. <_<) 10:21:29 <|amethyst> Grunt: if there are more than 10, have a small chance of replacing some by "1", and a smaller chance of "eleventyone" 10:21:52 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:22:02 -!- tureba_ has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 10:22:12 <|amethyst> is there a flavour or balance reason there is no shadow dragon armour? 10:22:36 <|amethyst> maybe because it's made of hydrochloric acid? 10:22:49 |amethyst: I don't think so, unless people think that the HCl is a problem 10:23:02 (Personally I still have a vague notion of wanting to see iron dragon armour somehow, not that it's necessarily realistic to skin something made of metal.) 10:23:10 -!- jbenedetto has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:23:14 <|amethyst> I was thinking something like rRot 10:23:28 That sounds extremely situational. 10:23:37 <|amethyst> but that would need adjustments for ghouls and undead mutations of course 10:23:39 I think mainly just nobody has a good idea for what the armour should do, and we do already have a lot of dragon armours 10:23:44 <|amethyst> Grunt: as opposed to rSticky? 10:23:50 <|amethyst> Grunt: or rSteam 10:24:00 rSticky is more useful than rRot I think 10:24:09 rSteam is another matter :P 10:24:27 IMO people don't generally wear steamDA or MDA for the resistances; they wear them for the combination of lightness and AC (and possibly enchantment value). 10:24:35 Not that rSticky isn't useful :) 10:24:52 people don't wear PDA for the rn either 10:25:03 though it comes in handy occasionally 10:25:14 <|amethyst> I'd think shadow DA would be fairly light, too 10:25:31 torment resistance 10:26:09 because the dark nature of something reflects the badness somehow and makes it less bad 10:26:23 i'm not in the mood for theory-of-bullshitting 10:30:04 Most kinds of dragon armour are useful against the kind of dragon they come from. 10:30:15 The only exception that immediately comes to mind is PDA. 10:31:15 -!- dienosore has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:32:05 PDA is good against everything else however. 10:32:35 -!- minqmay has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:33:22 If we wanted to make things consistent, make PDA rHoly (!?) and shadowDA rN++ or so. 10:33:52 Anyway, gone for the day. 10:34:14 (Oh, and quicksilverDA MR+++.) 10:34:40 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:35:29 <|amethyst> most players already have rHoly though... 10:36:07 <|amethyst> hm... or am I confused? 10:38:45 <|amethyst> oh, it's that neutral res_holy_energy means half damage 10:41:51 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:48:55 quicksilver armour probably ought to be -CAST as well 10:49:01 if we went that way 10:49:08 enchanting a shadow dragon hide should give you a cloak of darkness imo, wouldn't even have to add anything to the game 10:49:58 <|amethyst> should earth magic provide a bonus to lorcs' inherent stoneskin? 10:50:06 shadow dragon armour -- decreases LOS by 1 10:50:08 bam 10:50:24 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 10:51:05 <|amethyst> (currently it can if your earth is is higher than your XL) 10:52:30 probably not 10:52:42 i'd say just base it on xl i think 10:52:49 -!- Vizer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:53:37 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:54:13 Gargoyles should probably have stoneskin too? 10:54:39 Or should that effect be introduced together with their flesh-to-stone-ing 11:03:47 <|amethyst> should ozocubu's armour be allowed for lava orcs? Right now they can only cast it if they are low temperature but stoneskin expired 11:04:11 <|amethyst> because it conflicts with high temperature *and* conflicts with stoneskin 11:09:25 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:10:40 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 11:16:48 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:17:26 -!- Pacra has quit [Client Quit] 11:24:20 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 11:28:54 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:29:32 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 11:31:44 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:54 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:33:44 |amethyst: ice magic generally seems like a weird option for LO 11:33:44 mumra: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 11:33:48 !messages 11:33:49 (1/1) dpeg said (18h 48m 14s ago): Excellent reply to b0rsuk on devwiki (Evoker playing style) -- b0rsuk has a point but you have the vision :) 11:41:54 Merge kobolds and halflings to Sludge Dwarves by chris 11:43:18 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 11:46:47 03edlothiol 07* 0.13-a0-1431-gf3abd0f: Remove unnecessary semicolons (chris). 10(35 seconds ago, 2 files, 5+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f3abd0fc4ebd 11:48:19 Sludge Dwarves. 11:50:52 -!- yalue has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:55:34 -!- Stendarr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:55:42 <|amethyst> haha 12:02:46 -!- purge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:04 <3 Sludge Dwarves 12:06:34 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:02 Merfolk aquamancers eating the stairs. by dck 12:07:19 Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.12.2-2-g527d14f 12:07:26 |amethyst: stoneskin really should be implemented some other way for lava orcs 12:07:36 and with it fixed, ozocubu won't work 12:08:05 <|amethyst> kilobyte: I'm implementing it some other way 12:08:18 <|amethyst> without it fixed, ozo's doesn't work 12:08:40 <|amethyst> (or at least, only works in buggy situations) 12:08:47 <|amethyst> my fix, at least currently, does make it work. I could block it altogether though 12:10:18 cool, I semi started it, but only investigated what's wrong with but two lines of actual code written 12:10:22 stoneskin, that is 12:10:42 <|amethyst> I'm making it not use a DUR_ 12:11:08 exactly 12:11:30 <|amethyst> what to do about the statue form bonus? 12:12:05 <|amethyst> I don't mind keeping it, but should it be based on earth magic or XL for lava orcs? 12:12:10 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1431-gf3abd0f (34) 12:12:18 that's one way to do it, yeah 12:12:26 <|amethyst> (I'm basing the innate stoneskin bonus on XL only) 12:12:42 yeah 12:13:35 not sure whether statue should get the stoneskin bonus or not, but if it does, it should work same as regular stoneskin 12:14:11 <|amethyst> hm, our use of scaled numbers means I have to repeat myself a bit 12:14:11 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:14:16 <|amethyst> I guess that's not so bad though 12:15:47 <|amethyst> Or I guess instead of calling you.skill(SK_EARTH_MAGIC, 20) and then (..., 25) I could call you.skill(SK_EARTH_MAGIC, 100) then divide by 4 or 5 12:15:59 <|amethyst> I don't think I'll do that though 12:20:57 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:29:32 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1432-g8b5eb89: Lava orc stoneskin fixes (#7130) 10(83 minutes ago, 10 files, 66+ 40-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8b5eb89786bc 12:34:43 -!- whog has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:35:01 ugh ... i have no idea what to do with tome of destruction 12:35:14 what's even the point of ozocubu's armour on lava orcs? 12:35:25 it will disappear the moment it could be actually useful 12:35:37 <|amethyst> kilobyte: so does stoneskin 12:35:50 <|amethyst> and statue form 12:35:56 yeah, but stoneskin will come back by itself 12:36:42 <|amethyst> I would have no objection to making it unlearnable 12:36:45 also, after your change it no longer respects Stoneskin 12:37:03 if (you.duration[DUR_STONESKIN] || you.duration[DUR_FIRE_SHIELD]) 12:37:42 <|amethyst> it should respect the stoneskin spell 12:37:49 ah, you added a comment there 12:38:01 still feels inconsistent 12:38:22 Eronarn: ^ 12:38:37 <|amethyst> yeah 12:38:59 <|amethyst> if it is changed to be unlearnable, I would consider doing the same with ice form 12:39:11 <|amethyst> since that one can kill you 12:39:58 <|amethyst> not sure about condensation shield: it at least allows training shields 12:40:00 why do lava orcs still have temperature in forms that change the full body, anyway? I'd expect temperature stuff to be disabled like other physiological stuff 12:40:30 ice form especially 12:41:00 I just disabled it for djinn outright, it would probably make sense to do the same for lava orcs 12:41:49 stone form feels weird theme-wise, with lava orcs being already stony 12:41:51 but why do e.g. spiderformed lava orcs still have a temperature mechanic? 12:42:15 well being able to change forms to enable scroll usage seems a bit weird 12:42:37 could always disable forms at high temperature 12:42:40 if that is an issue 12:43:08 or lichform 12:43:12 if so, forms would be mostly useless, as they're meant for fighting 12:44:43 the point about scrolls is quite strong, I haven't thought about it 12:45:00 "You would cook yourself alive at this temperature!" 12:45:01 so what about assuming it's some fiery spider? 12:45:02 they have really high tmut but yeah, i don't really see a great way to make that actually work 12:45:03 kilobyte: I meant disabling entering a form at high temperature... if you were already in a form, you'd not have a temperature mechanic until the form ends 12:45:13 tmut apt that is 12:45:20 still a bit weird 12:46:35 but IMO having a lichform lava orc "getting fired up" is weird too 12:47:33 kind of bone-less lich octopode 12:47:52 or a treeform lava orc for that matter 12:49:26 i just don't really like them having a way to disable their main downside 12:49:46 MarvinPA: aye 12:50:04 not that blocking them from casting so many spells is much better, though :/ 12:50:13 MarvinPA: how is it different from a naga using spider form to run away? 12:50:51 * geekosaur wonders what happens if someone /polys a hot lo into tree form 12:50:53 hmm, that is true 12:54:31 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- DaneiTHREE has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- caracal has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- doome has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- Adder has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- ekix has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- Rjs has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- marcmagus has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- kryft has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- _sk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- Azzkikr has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- Adeonasus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:58:43 -!- Dalvant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:43 -!- Cheibriados has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:59:55 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59:55 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 12:59:55 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: CAO has telnet again. Let rax know if there are problems. | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ?cszo, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious! 13:00:30 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:35 looks like we have three proposals here: 1. stone/fiery tree, 2. unable to enter forms when hot, forms disable heating, 3. no transforms for lava orcs 13:00:37 if you ban all forms then presumably you have to replace badforms with something as well 13:00:41 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 13:01:39 mumra: can do the same thing as with mummies/ghouls/liches 13:02:03 I for one prefer 1 but arguments for 2 and 3 are not outright bonkers either 13:03:05 i think it'd be good to have something that can actually be consistently applied for all races, within reason at least 13:03:18 i.e. "defining racial characteristics are kept during transformation" 13:03:33 -!- N78291 has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:03:57 obviously there are weird cases that are hard to apply that to 13:03:58 -!- darktwinge has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:03:59 well, "defining racial characteristics" vary too significantly for that to work i think 13:04:01 -!- F-Glex has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:13 that's what I assumed banning ice form for Dj, as fiery ice makes no sense 13:04:28 but e.g. Djinni don't suddenly gain an MP bar in another form 13:04:35 yeah, that too 13:04:40 -!- darktwinge has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:58 speed, size and EV does change for all forms, though 13:05:18 kilobyte: an example of the sort of inconsistency that happens currently: lichformed lava orc can swim in lava, lichformed merfolk cannot swim in water 13:05:19 (forms that change your shape that is, no blade hands or necromutation) 13:05:21 but, the form should still be a bit different from one race to another 13:07:11 otherwise there's not really any difference between transmuter combos 13:07:15 -!- Ero has joined ##crawl-dev 13:07:16 mumra: transmuters usually aren't in full-body forms 13:07:18 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 13:07:41 (just checked): indeed. lich Mf in water looks like a bug to me, though 13:07:42 -!- joosa has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 13:07:47 since all the full-body forms have drawbacks of their own 13:07:47 no but when they *are* there are still opportunities for differentiation even if it's small things 13:07:50 -!- jooosa is now known as joosa 13:07:50 kilobyte: how about spider Mf 13:07:52 _why_ shouldn't they if lich form doesn't change body shape? 13:07:54 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:07:54 -!- fungee has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:01 -!- Ainulindale has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:01 -!- medice has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:01 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:01 -!- Eldarby has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:02 -!- Eronarn has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:02 -!- Sprort has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:02 -!- Sizzell has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:02 -!- cptwinky has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:02 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:02 -!- G-Flex has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:03 -!- timpakay has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:03 -!- myrmidette has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:03 -!- Writ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:03 -!- gChange has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:04 -!- gay has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:04 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:05 -!- gChange_ is now known as gChange 13:08:08 lich tengu can fly, etc 13:08:42 -!- Sizzell has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:51 -!- pelotron has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 13:08:55 -!- clouded_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:59 okay how about spider Mf 13:09:10 also statue form isn't really supposed to change your overall shape is it ? 13:09:24 currently it can't swim in water, spider lava orc can swim in lava 13:09:32 spider Mf not being able to swim can be argued either way 13:09:35 this just feels clearly inconsistent to me 13:09:40 -!- fungee^ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:09:55 i am trying hard to imagine a half-fish spider 13:10:03 mumra: yeah 13:10:07 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 13:10:14 but a lava spider is much easier to comprehend 13:10:22 -!- LexAckson has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:10:24 clearly merfolk are water spiders 13:10:39 -!- st_ has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 13:10:42 wut? 13:10:54 -!- ChongLi has quit [*.net *.split] 13:10:55 -!- LoremIpsum has quit [*.net *.split] 13:10:55 -!- namad7 has quit [*.net *.split] 13:10:55 -!- us17 has quit [*.net *.split] 13:10:55 -!- Xjs|moonshine has quit [*.net *.split] 13:10:55 -!- Xiberia has quit [*.net *.split] 13:10:55 -!- iasov has quit [*.net *.split] 13:10:56 -!- Keskitalo has quit [*.net *.split] 13:10:56 -!- ktgrey has quit [*.net *.split] 13:11:00 there are plenty of spiders that like to spend time underwater, yes 13:11:23 mumra: I'd agree with you here; like stone/fiery trees: we have stone trees in RL (not so alive but blah), and Rich Burlew wrote a good article about fire-based undead trees too 13:11:51 kilobyte: if you like undead trees then why can't mummies be treeformed :P 13:12:20 -!- purge__ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:25 -!- Medice2 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:25 -!- purge_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:13:07 elliptic: it's a longer story, the monster looks quite well designed though 13:13:12 or octopodes... why do they lose their defining characteristic (8 rings) in ice form? 13:13:26 http://www.giantitp.com/articles/6AaJhMSc1hfIf1zpbML.html 13:13:30 -!- LoremIpsum_ is now known as LoremIpsum 13:13:46 undead can't be polymorphed so it makes sense mummies can't 13:13:59 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 13:14:12 I just don't feel like there's much precedent for this "lava tree" or "lava spider" stuff looking at how our current species behave when transformed 13:14:27 -!- pythonsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:15:01 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:15:09 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:40 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:15:44 usually they lose all their racially defining attributes, and I don't see why LO should be magically different 13:16:15 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:15 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:18 fr lava ice beast 13:16:52 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:57 -!- clouded_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:16:58 having them lose temp stuff would be inconsistent with other races, though: lich tengu keeping flight, djinn not getting a mp bar, ice form spriggans not getting able to eat meat, etc 13:17:24 well it either requires going back over all the forms an reassessing how racial features are affected in all cases 13:17:36 we got such "racially defining attributes" being either kept or lost for different forms, and there's no easy way forcing consistency 13:17:51 OR coming up with an easy justification like "lava orcs are so naturally tied to lava and rock that even when changing form they retain this material composition" 13:18:08 why can Dj even transform at all :P 13:18:18 or that cowardly cop out of saying "stone can't transform" 13:18:29 <|amethyst> why can humans transform at all? 13:18:34 magic 13:18:46 elliptic: angels/demons can mutate, and theme-wise they're something of that holiness 13:18:54 heh, |amethyst's point is the best 13:19:12 we're discussing realism when it's all "a wizard did it" 13:19:21 I'm not talking about realism 13:19:33 I'm thinking about this from a mechanical point of view 13:19:33 -!- Chousuke_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:39 -!- remyroy1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:40 -!- Chousuke has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:19:52 which is that physiological stuff gets suppressed (usually) 13:19:58 -!- Staplefun has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:20:01 it's pretty easy to say "living flesh is the most flexible material at transmuting into other materials, other materials are harder to completely change and will retain base properties even when changing into another shape" 13:20:13 it's not hard to come up with fluff to justify any kind of magic 13:20:17 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:20:34 -!- myrmidette has joined ##crawl-dev 13:20:43 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:20:44 the important thing isn't coming up with a fluff justification 13:20:48 yea 13:21:05 the important thing is to make sure nothing is overly confusing 13:21:13 or counterintuitive 13:21:15 yes 13:21:19 since some properties are too ingrained into a race to be lost when transformed, there'll be inconsistency no matter where we put the threshold 13:21:34 so I'd prefer just allowing fire spiders here 13:21:48 then why not allow fire ice form 13:21:48 if the heat mechanic is retained in all forms, and ice form is banned, that's pretty clear and consistent for players to understand 13:21:49 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:51 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:58 mumra: it isn't for me! 13:22:15 elliptic: what happens if you heat up ice? 13:22:15 well what don't you understand about it? 13:22:38 -!- Sizzell has quit [*.net *.split] 13:22:39 -!- Sprort has quit [*.net *.split] 13:22:39 -!- fungee has quit [*.net *.split] 13:22:39 -!- bd- has quit [*.net *.split] 13:22:44 -!- Chozo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:46 -!- Sizzell has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:56 i think most people would not be suprised that fire ice form does not work 13:22:58 i would consider banning all ice magic 13:23:04 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:25 do they really need to be railroaded even more heavily than they are by their apts currently 13:23:29 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:04 mumra: I see nothing inherently wrong with casting Bolt of Cold or Ice Storm (beyond terrible apts) 13:24:07 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:24:33 casting those spells should cool you down orobably 13:24:44 mumra: I've explained inconsistencies with how other races behave when transformed... 13:24:45 since casting bolt of fire will melt ice shield/armour .. 13:24:46 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:24:50 mumra: yeah 13:25:16 would be nice to get Eronarn into this discussion 13:25:20 if tension is meant to be the basis of the temperature mechanic then making it even easier to game sounds bad 13:25:22 elliptic: irrespective of consistency with other races, i think the statement "heat mechanic is retained in all forms" is very clear and simple 13:26:02 Ero did join the channel not long ago 13:26:03 mumra: clear once you know it, sure... it was the "consistent" part I was objecting to :P 13:26:19 -!- lorinal has quit [] 13:26:32 and yeah, letting people cast an ice spell so that they can read scrolls sounds really bad 13:26:51 yes :) forms are so weird anyway there isn't a simple set of consistent rules that could explain all the intricacies for every species anyway 13:26:59 a Dead Dwarf can't use Regeneration, or a Vampire DDoor... so banning a single problematic spell isn't an issue 13:27:05 er, Deep... 13:27:07 since it would actually increase incentive to learn a couple ice spells on LO 13:27:22 -!- fungee^ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:27:23 (hey, a dead dwarf can't use it either :p ) 13:28:19 and yeah, banning ice form alone isn't awful 13:28:30 banning all of ice magic would be weird though 13:28:39 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:49 it seems like a lot of ice spells won't work for one reason or another 13:28:50 -!- |amethys1 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:50 -!- atomicth1mbs has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:52 <|amethys1> elliptic: but to be consistent with that, we'd have to either have forms not suppress anything; or not allow forms for spriggans 13:28:59 what with lich form Mf in water? I'd change it to allow swimming, as lich form doesn't change shape. 13:29:08 -!- |amethyst has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:29:16 -!- |amethys1 is now known as |amethyst 13:29:34 kilobyte: you mean, allow the fishtail transformation in lichform? 13:29:46 I thought you didn't like undead transforming... 13:29:51 mumra: self enchantments, ie, Ozocubu's Armour and Ice Form 13:29:54 -!- Grunt_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:30:03 <|amethyst> merfolk liches should have *only* tails 13:30:08 yeah 13:30:15 <|amethyst> no feet 13:30:15 well shapesgifter zombies transform now 13:30:15 |amethyst: so lichform melds Mf boots? 13:30:17 kilobyte: also Cond. Shield 13:30:33 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:30:33 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:30:33 -!- humeral-A has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:30:33 -!- Zannick has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:30:33 -!- dosman711 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:30:33 -!- Guz has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:30:33 -!- Grunt has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:30:34 -!- Mattias has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:30:36 elliptic: their natural form is a fish tail 13:30:55 -!- Mattias has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:02 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:04 does lichform Op swim? 13:31:06 maybe lichform Mf should be unable to walk on land in that case :P 13:31:10 mumra: yes 13:31:35 mumra: no 13:31:35 no it doesn't 13:31:42 mumra: (or did when I won mine; spent some time running around Antaeus) 13:32:01 -!- simmarine has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:12 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 13:32:18 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:32:43 ugh, there's some save corruption in trunk 13:33:10 <|amethyst> elliptic: I wouldn't be opposed to someone undoing the form-mutation stuff I did last year if that is needed for consistency 13:33:24 -!- namad8 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:33:44 |amethyst: some makes sense, some doesn't 13:34:04 -!- Mingan_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:34:09 like, it's quite surprising for a skeletal octopus to be able to walk but not swim 13:34:09 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:41 -!- clouded_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:50 -!- gammafunk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:07 not that surprising to me, being skeletal sounds like it would make swimming harder :P 13:35:09 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:38 -!- myp has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:40 octopus. Gills. Drowning on untransform is not exactly an issue :p 13:36:07 -!- Ragnor has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:36:08 <|amethyst> since the ultimate effect of that was unfortunately to make things less consistent 13:36:19 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 13:36:37 |amethyst: well it was already inconsistent before that in various ways... I think for the most part it isn't too bad right now 13:36:48 -!- Chozo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:37:09 -!- simmarine_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:37:11 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 13:37:19 -!- atrodo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:37:20 -!- atrodo_ is now known as atrodo 13:37:23 -!- metasyntactic has joined ##crawl-dev 13:37:31 -!- magicpoints has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 13:37:35 Sp digestion is a good example of something physiological that isn't suppressed right now (and shouldn't be), but I can't think of too much else 13:38:04 -!- Sabaki has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:38:05 -!- g4spr0m has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:38:05 -!- ground4 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:38:05 -!- broquaint has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:38:13 -!- Ragnor has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:19 -!- pantaril has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 13:38:19 -!- ibanix_ has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 13:38:19 -!- atomicthumbs has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 13:38:19 -!- hart_ has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 13:38:20 -!- sildraith has quit [Excess Flood] 13:38:20 -!- jday_ has quit [Excess Flood] 13:38:47 -!- Guest81510 is now known as magicpoints 13:39:08 -!- Glauk has quit [Quit: Quitte] 13:39:40 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:39:41 tengu flight? 13:39:50 already magical in the first place, as they're wingless 13:39:51 that's explicitly magical 13:39:57 i.e. not physiological 13:40:29 -!- Chozo_ is now known as Chozo 13:40:35 -!- Duralumin has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40:35 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40:36 -!- Eldarby_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40:36 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:37 -!- bakaflockaflame has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40:37 -!- tali713 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40:37 <|amethyst> kilobyte: that might have been me inappropriately generalising from merfolk 13:41:15 <|amethyst> err 13:41:26 <|amethyst> are octopode liches actually "skeletal"? 13:41:28 -!- medice has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds] 13:41:29 <|amethyst> because... 13:41:49 -!- Snarwin has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:41:49 -!- Zermako has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:42:12 haha 13:42:41 -!- LoremIpsum has quit [Ping timeout: 295 seconds] 13:42:41 -!- ivan``_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:42:46 they are just beaks 13:42:47 chitinal 13:42:58 -!- marcmagus has quit [Ping timeout: 243 seconds] 13:42:58 -!- DaneiTHREE has quit [Ping timeout: 243 seconds] 13:42:59 -!- inpho has quit [Ping timeout: 243 seconds] 13:43:14 <|amethyst> I figured they were more zombielike 13:43:32 -!- broquaint has joined ##crawl-dev 13:43:43 This spell first transforms the caster into a lich — a powerful skeletal 13:43:43 figure. 13:43:54 Contrary to what one would expect, this spell works on octopodes, although what 13:43:54 foul necromantic tissue serves as an analogue for bones remains a mystery. 13:44:00 -!- bhaak_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:06 <|amethyst> oh, lampshaded 13:44:21 -!- cptwinky has quit [Ping timeout: 278 seconds] 13:44:34 -!- neunon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:59 -!- Ainulindale has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 13:45:27 -!- tali713 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:45:37 foul necromantic lampshade 13:45:37 <|amethyst> I'd be more worried about the message: "You would drown in your new form." 13:45:55 -!- Zermako has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:46:05 -!- Zermak is now known as Zermako 13:46:36 do liches die in water? 13:47:02 currently liches can never swim apparently 13:47:45 -!- F-Glex has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:47:48 heh 13:48:07 maybe they should be able to move really slow through water 13:48:13 but just to get out? 13:48:51 -!- bhaak_ is now known as bhaak` 13:48:52 -!- st_ has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:52 -!- myrmidette has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:52 -!- pelotron_ has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:52 -!- remyroy has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:52 -!- Sgun has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:53 -!- LexAckson has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:53 -!- us17 has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:53 -!- Namey has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:53 -!- joosa has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:54 -!- Ainulind1le has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:54 -!- darktwinge has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:54 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:54 -!- marcmagu1 has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:54 -!- Adder_ has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:54 -!- gammafunk has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:54 -!- bhaak has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:54 -!- tureba has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:55 -!- SaintWacko has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:55 -!- Sequell has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:55 -!- Palyth has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:56 -!- Surr has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:56 -!- kunwon1 has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:56 -!- ivan`` has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:56 -!- neunon has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:56 -!- tJener has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:56 -!- Psyknux has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:56 -!- riot has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:56 -!- Gretell has quit [*.net *.split] 13:48:59 -!- gammafunk_ is now known as gammafunk 13:48:59 -!- neunon_ is now known as neunon 13:49:03 they walk really slowly through it 13:49:04 -!- jooosa is now known as joosa 13:49:10 a la pirates of the caribbean 1 13:49:16 -!- floatboth has quit [Quit: floatboth] 13:50:06 that'd be zombie form 13:50:11 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1433-ga160c91: Allow djinn to burn spellbooks at their "feet" (#7154) 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a160c91e38c7 13:50:13 <|amethyst> kilobyte: what should you.foot_name() return for a djinni? 13:50:21 haha 13:50:39 -!- myrmidette has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:39 |amethyst: uhm... "a tapering down spirity strand of sorts"? 13:50:39 <|amethyst> kilobyte: I kind of sidestepped the issue in that commit, but I'm sure it comes up elsewhere 13:50:47 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:53 -!- bhaak` is now known as bhaak 13:52:39 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 13:53:02 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 13:53:21 -!- us17_ is now known as us17 13:53:25 -!- us17 has quit [Changing host] 13:54:01 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 13:55:30 -!- ag- is now known as bd- 13:55:40 -!- clouded_ is now known as st_ 13:55:50 -!- Jevouse has joined ##crawl-dev 13:56:27 -!- Pepe has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57:21 |amethyst: godabil.cc in function 'bool trog_burn_spellbooks() 13:58:42 -!- tJener_ is now known as tJener 13:58:50 |amethyst: godabil.cc in function 'bool trog_burn_spellbooks()': godabil.cc:1475: error: no matching function for call to 'player::res_fire(bool)' 13:59:06 |amethyst: most places that use foot_name don't really make a lot of sense for Djinni 13:59:39 -!- phyphor_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:01:17 -!- rax_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:01:41 -!- |amethys1 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:02:35 |amethys1: you broke teh crawl! 14:02:37 godabil.cc:1475:27: error: no matching function for call to ‘player::res_fire(bool)’ 14:03:10 -!- floatboth has quit [Quit: floatboth] 14:03:39 |amethys1: you meant calc_unid=false, right? 14:04:57 -!- Slowpoke_Man has joined ##crawl-dev 14:05:03 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-1434-gfb3cb40: Unbreak compilation. 10(37 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fb3cb40b86c6 14:05:37 -!- ophanim has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:38 -!- Eldarby has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:38 -!- ZRN_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:38 -!- gChange has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:39 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:39 -!- _D_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:39 -!- Moredrea1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:40 -!- rax has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:40 -!- NotIpsum_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:41 -!- neunon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:42 -!- Surr_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:42 -!- dosman711 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:42 -!- Mingan has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:42 -!- |amethyst has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:42 -!- herself has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:43 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:43 -!- phyphor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:43 -!- OCTOTROG has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:06:32 kilobyte to the rescue 14:06:45 -!- Slowpoke_Man is now known as BlastHardcheese 14:07:04 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:53 -!- gChange___ is now known as gChange 14:08:17 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-1435-g0f566bb: The djinn can't kneel. 10(66 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0f566bbf2da3 14:08:27 -!- gChange_ has quit [Ping timeout: 269 seconds] 14:08:30 -!- doome has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09:37 -!- gChange__ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:10:56 -!- broquaint has quit [Ping timeout: 271 seconds] 14:10:56 -!- Snarwin has quit [Ping timeout: 271 seconds] 14:12:03 -!- Xiberia_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:10 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:41 -!- |amethys1 has quit [*.net *.split] 14:14:41 -!- ChongLi has quit [*.net *.split] 14:14:42 -!- Xiberia has quit [*.net *.split] 14:14:42 -!- Keskitalo has quit [*.net *.split] 14:14:42 -!- ktgrey has quit [*.net *.split] 14:14:44 -!- Xiberia_ is now known as Xiberia 14:15:22 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 14:16:22 -!- ChongLi_ is now known as ChongLi 14:18:25 you.contaminated() and you.like_chunks() are broken by snow 14:18:25 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:18:32 -!- Gretell has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:18:32 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 14:18:32 -!- Gretell has quit [*.net *.split] 14:18:44 -!- dazzle_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:19:06 -!- nCrazed has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:20:40 -!- gChange has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:20:45 -!- gChange_ is now known as gChange 14:21:25 -!- broquaint has joined ##crawl-dev 14:21:28 -!- fdel has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:24:02 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 14:24:52 -!- _D__ has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:28:31 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:30:20 -!- ophanim1 is now known as ophanim 14:34:07 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:38:59 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:39:25 -!- mgq has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:32 <|amethyst> kilobyte: gah 14:41:56 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 14:42:15 <|amethyst> kilobyte: I was in the process of changing it from you.res_fire() to player_res_fire() and got distracted 14:42:29 <|amethyst> but apparently not too distracted to commit 14:44:44 -!- dosman711` is now known as dosman711 14:46:34 BeardTony the Backstabber (L16 SpEn) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 403 failed on turn 40070. (Vaults:1) 14:46:40 Hey who's the one behind the ancient zyme. 14:46:47 -!- OCTOTROG_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:18 -!- Grunt_ is now known as Grunt 14:50:45 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:52:42 Bloax: probably dracoomega 14:52:52 well tell him he's not funny again 14:53:08 they were already nerfed, a lot 14:53:25 to not make you sick all the fucking time without being able to do something about it 14:54:24 well starcursed mass are still horrible 14:54:41 unless irresistible paralyzing damage from anywhere in LOS isn't horrible 14:54:59 Meanwhile welcome abyss blink block/teleport delay. 14:57:48 -!- simmarine_ is now known as simmarine 14:57:58 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 15:02:11 i feel like starcursed mass are not too tough 15:02:52 LexAckson_: By themselves they're easy. 15:02:55 i only remember getting paralyzed once or twice arcoss several games 15:02:56 but have you considered 15:03:03 that you're not always alone 15:03:05 with only them 15:03:10 well yeah 15:03:11 in fact you could be fighting an entire group 15:03:12 and then 15:03:18 this motherfucking piece of bullshit appears 15:03:22 haha 15:03:23 and say goodbye to your character 15:03:29 because you're not getting away 15:03:34 it's only somewhat worse than giant eyes 15:03:50 Not after blurry vision 3 and everything gone after countless hours of wandering. 15:04:03 haha 15:04:12 I can probably trash Zot with ease. 15:04:19 I got down to 17 hp. 15:04:27 it does seem to take extra long to find the exit in abyss 1 15:04:30 and i was completely surrounded 15:04:37 This was Abyss:5 mind you. 15:04:40 The rune never spawns anyways. 15:04:51 it's a liar 15:04:57 Seriously just replace it with a rune in Elf. 15:05:00 like god damn seriously 15:05:03 haha 15:05:05 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 15:05:14 you'd get decent loot too 15:05:21 and perhaps a trip to the abyss too 15:05:31 everyone wins 15:05:41 except lucy because who cares 15:05:47 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:47 fr elf3 vault appears in abyss 15:06:49 i love the new summon misc items 15:07:05 they are really cool to find without being op 15:07:23 especially the gales effect that blows monsters away 15:07:33 I haven't tried them. 15:07:39 But I like that they got some love. 15:07:47 Instead of being summon elemental v0.1 15:08:17 they are like mini get out of jail cards 15:08:29 that come back about once per xp level 15:09:12 -!- yalue has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:09:20 huh? 15:09:32 they are decent escape items 15:09:38 and they are one use 15:09:44 but they recharge as you get xp 15:10:34 -!- Gretell has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:10:59 That's kinda crap. 15:11:20 you can find them early game though 15:11:22 pretty common 15:11:27 if you have evocations they'll come back a lot fater than once per xl... 15:11:35 probably even without 15:11:37 neat 15:12:03 anyway bloax, just try em out 15:12:22 I will. 15:12:33 Though not this game. 15:12:54 Bloax: i have no idea why you would think that is kinda crap, they are awesome items, give something a chance before you make sweeping statements ffs 15:13:14 mumra: context 15:13:29 mumra: +1 15:13:37 that come back about once per xp level 15:13:37 and they are one use 15:13:37 but they recharge as you get xp 15:13:44 That's kinda crap. 15:13:55 yes i saw the conversation first time# 15:13:59 the fire and maybe air ones are probably good vs starcursed mass too :) 15:14:01 No, it's not. This is ##crawl-dev. 15:14:02 yes take your clueless sweeping statements out of -dev 15:14:18 I'm not calling them crap. 15:14:34 Rather calling the "one use per xl" aspect kinda crap. 15:14:43 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 15:14:49 Without knowing that yes they do recharge faster than that with evocations. 15:15:14 even so, an item that can potentially save you once per XL is still excellent 15:15:15 Even if they were single use they might be alright. "This is crap" is just completely unhelpful. 15:15:18 and you can have more than 1 item 15:16:16 let's beat the dead argument, that'll teach 'im talkin' harsh 15:16:56 anyway 15:16:59 Tome of Destruction 15:17:08 dpeg: was it you that said is should be not a book? 15:17:41 mumra: yes, I think that's only confusing 15:17:45 it should just not be unreliable and dangerous 15:18:01 I don't know if dpeg said that but I certainly agree... it causes a lot of confusion to treat it as a book 15:18:01 As it doesn't work like a book in any of the game's ways. 15:18:25 elliptic: I didn't claim to be the first one... :) it's certainly an old complaint. 15:18:34 it causes lots of really odd code 15:18:36 dpeg: sure, I was just agreeing :) 15:18:46 LexAckson_: that too 15:18:48 -!- scummos has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:49 -!- ChongLi has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:49 -!- herself has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:49 -!- Surr has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:49 -!- Jevouse has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:49 -!- Danei has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:49 -!- bhaak has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:50 -!- marcmagus has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:50 -!- bakaflockaflame has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:50 -!- pelotron has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:50 -!- sildraith has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:50 -!- Isvaffel has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:51 -!- localhost has quit [*.net *.split] 15:19:05 My proof that the Tome is not a book: You cannot burn it. 15:19:06 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:38 Hello, peoples 15:19:39 DracoOmega: You have 12 messages. Use !messages to read them. 15:19:39 i'm not quite sure what to turn it into. if it has limited charges it becomes something like a super-wand; if it has a cooldown it might as well be a rod 15:19:47 DracoOmega: Hi there! 15:19:49 -!- gammafunk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:53 being somewhat unreliable is fine, people still use decks of destruction, makhleb's minor/major destruction, and even wands of random effects 15:20:09 the self-clouding isn't necessary though 15:20:13 elliptic: it's somewhat too unreliable, and the failure effects are nasty 15:20:14 yeah 15:20:20 (1/12) Lightli said (4d 20h 13m 8s ago): YOUR SLUDGE ELVES ARE NO MORE 15:20:23 As b0rsuk pointed out (once more), we should try to find a conceptual niche for evokables. 15:20:25 Since when are they mine? >.> 15:20:40 !lg DracoOmega s=crace 15:20:41 All our Sludge Elves belonged to DracoOmega!!1!! 15:20:43 -!- gammafunk has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:43 -!- gammafunk_ is now known as gammafunk 15:20:48 dpeg, you can throw it in lava 15:20:58 oh did sequell get confused by all the netsplitting 15:20:59 LexAckson_: but Trog wouldn't accept that! 15:21:02 haha 15:21:22 6 games for DracoOmega: 3x Kobold, 2x Draconian, Octopode 15:21:24 mumra: Possibly if the bad miscasts and self destruction were gone it might actually be kind of okay as-is. Or at least worth experimenting with, with some other slight improvements 15:21:38 Like, the randomness is a fine thing, I think, so long as average effects are useful 15:21:46 the problem is it's then just a free infinite wand 15:21:54 I really like the idea that evokables are rechargable items, either as wands, or via xp. 15:21:57 -!- sbanwart has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:22:00 How about making it cost hp or mp when you read it or something? 15:22:02 DracoOmega: well it would be overpowered if it was infinite with no risks 15:22:05 Not sure if that's enough for a niche. 15:22:17 DracoOmega: then it's just like casting spells basically 15:22:30 i realise it has some differences 15:22:42 This discussion would be easier if we had a clue what we want from evokables =) 15:22:48 Well, the tome blowing itself up feels a little silly, anyway 15:22:51 what about just stealing recharging via xp from the elemental evokers, but with a twist: it can store multiple charges 15:22:55 I have no objection to it doing SOME kinds of bad things from time to time 15:23:10 -!- gChange has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:23:10 -!- ophanim has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:23:11 -!- Grunt has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:23:12 so it has a visible number of charges, and that number will increase up to some max as you gain xp 15:23:26 -!- Grunt has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:26 elliptic: that's very much like an xp-recharged rod 15:23:33 mumra: indeed 15:23:36 Well, that's not necessarily so bad, inherantly 15:23:40 no 15:23:52 It is also not clear if there's enough design space for all of: wands, rods, cards, other items. 15:24:02 i thought the idea of xp-recharged rods was being thrown around anyway, yeah 15:24:09 Perhaps we're better off with... ah, I see 15:24:18 I would prefer to replace all rods by misc items anyway; it causes a lot of trouble that they are "weapons" 15:24:27 elliptic: that too 15:24:28 the same way that tome being a book is bad 15:24:32 MarvinPA: last time it was discussed we kind of concluded that xp-recharge would be weird for most rods, this is open to discussion still of course 15:24:39 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:50 Did we agree to make rods single spell? 15:24:52 mumra: weird in what way? 15:25:00 <|amethyst> dpeg: there are some objections 15:25:01 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:25:01 I don't really like xp-recharged rods anyway, since they are way shorter-term in usage 15:25:14 And recharging DURING combat seems reasonable and often useful 15:25:15 <|amethyst> dpeg: kilobyte's recent mail to c-r-d for example 15:25:16 dpeg: I think everyone except kilobyte did, maybe :P 15:25:20 ah 15:25:27 elliptic: weird that they're things you want to use very frequently, xp-recharge suits long cooldowns better imo 15:25:40 Like, during an extended battle 15:25:43 mumra: why should they be things you want to use very frequently? 15:25:57 elliptic: also a good point 15:25:58 they could have more max charges than they do currently 15:26:12 so that when fully charged, you could use them for quite a while in a battle 15:26:17 if they can't be used so often then they don't necessarily need to be so rare 15:26:19 That is the question: build item (i.e. use very frequently) or emergency item? 15:26:26 -!- Jevouse has joined ##crawl-dev 15:26:40 elliptic: i do tend to agree with turning all rods into misc items. actually there are very few rods that really need to exist at all if this happens 15:26:44 if you are using them all the time, then they are just crossbows 15:26:51 since rods of destruction would be conflated with tome of destruction 15:27:04 the lightning rod stays as a rod but recharges differently 15:27:36 elliptic: Yes. Myself, I don't have any kind of clear mental picture for evokables. Currently, they're all over the place: unique effects, non-unique effects; ranged damage, summonings, hexes... 15:27:38 dpeg: kilobyte did object on c-r-d to turning all rods into single-spell 15:27:53 -!- anichowy_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:28:41 -!- 13WAAF3YU has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:42 I recall. I couldn't comment because of things I said here already. 15:28:47 having multiple spells in a single item just makes interface worse 15:28:47 i think misc items should all be unique effects basically 15:29:00 elliptic: this is why I brought up again, yes 15:29:10 -!- Naruni has quit [Excess Flood] 15:29:31 all the multi-spell rods happen to just have boring copies of player spells anyway, yeah 15:29:36 For what it's worth, even if this is not the majority opinion, I do like multispell rods if more than one thing on them is actually worth using 15:29:36 elliptic: not any worse than normal spellcasting, but certainly worse than other misc items 15:29:42 so it would be good to remove them regardless 15:29:47 Since there is a possible tradeoff on what you spend the charges on 15:29:55 But most multispell rods are either bad, or only have one thing that isn't 15:30:03 mumra: it's worse than normal spellcasting, you have to select the item and then select the spell 15:30:05 MarvinPA: yes, those rods are all pointless; if we had a rod with an interesting selection of unique spells that might be different 15:30:44 mumra: it's like if you had to select the book containing the spell to cast it 15:30:47 <|amethyst> err 15:30:48 <|amethyst> you have to select rods to use them? 15:30:53 |amethyst: to wield them 15:30:54 well not if have the rod generally wielded but sure, you have to juggle items plenty anyway, and if we made them usable less often it gets worse 15:31:13 |amethyst: serious rod chars have a bit stack of rods and swap between them a lot 15:31:22 -!- Naruni has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:30 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:52 <|amethyst> wouldn't slowing the recharge make that even worse? 15:31:56 dpeg: i quite like how different misc items have slightly different mechanics (and generally mechanics that don't fit in any other item class) 15:32:00 it's hard for me to imagine a selection of unique spells that work better all on one item than on separate items 15:32:10 -!- 13WAAF3YU has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:32:52 mumra: I just fail to see a coherent picture of the whole thing. Miscellaneous items are much less well defined that any of our spell schools, say. 15:33:17 i feel the category should have a lot of variation within itself, you have to learn slightly different ways to use all these crazy gadgets 15:33:20 |amethyst: I'd imagine you wouldn't have to wield them, the same way you don't have to wield any of our other evokables now... 15:33:43 obviously this sounds bad from an interface viewpoint but i think it's ok for it to be a slightly more complex area than other categories :) 15:34:04 the whole having to wield rods makes people do crazy things like worry about using them as melee weapons 15:34:14 and also plays poorly with ashenzari 15:34:16 mumra: I don't mind each misc item doing its thing, ideally in a fully unique way. I wonder what the skill is supposed to be. 15:34:17 <|amethyst> elliptic: but you still have to select them 15:34:22 autoinscribe !a 15:34:25 since currently ash + rods is completely awful 15:34:33 elliptic: Well, one idea I had been meaning to work on for a while was a rod that could create temporary shields/barricades of a sort, and I thought that multiple spells could control different variants of that. Like a wider/weaker one versus a single stronger one or something 15:34:34 <|amethyst> elliptic: and you wouldn't be able to use it multiple times in a row without re-selecting 15:34:36 also vamp weapon + rods 15:34:41 elliptic: also ash + decks 15:34:42 <|amethyst> elliptic: but I do agree re ash 15:34:48 |amethyst: that works fine with wands currently 15:35:00 <|amethyst> true 15:35:04 -!- Chousuke_ is now known as Chousuke 15:35:10 Well, I had actually thought not being able to use rods meaningfully with vamp weapons was one of the more noticable downsides for some characters 15:35:22 Likewise with Ash (who is similar for ranged combat or stabbing swaps and so on) 15:35:23 elliptic: lightning rod necessitates being used multiple times in a row (and i think this is the most interesting direction for rods) 15:35:41 lightning rod <3 15:35:53 mumra: true, lightning rod is cool 15:36:08 <|amethyst> yeah, l.rod would need some work to function as an unwielded item 15:36:11 it could still require wielding 15:36:22 just stuff like tome of destruction doesn't need to 15:37:13 is the vamp weild hunger requirement a balance mechanic? 15:37:41 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 15:37:43 Well, in some ways I guess it is? I mean, it is a noticable downside for some builds 15:37:45 LexAckson_: it's to prevent easy swapping, so that people don't only swap vampiric in when they are injured 15:37:45 LexAckson_: yes 15:37:57 oh, i guess that makes sense 15:38:00 And yes, I guess that would happen if it was unrestricted, too 15:38:00 I wouldn't call it balance; it's to prevent tedious swapping 15:38:17 elliptic: protecting players from themselves? :) 15:38:21 haha 15:38:22 yes 15:39:06 elliptic: but to prevent tedious swapping between melee weapons rather than having anything to do with rods or other stuff presumably 15:39:16 honestly I don't like vamp weapons on vampires or mummies or whatever for that reason 15:39:42 (because they are swappable) 15:39:43 i love vamp weapons on mummies because you can use rods 15:39:48 haha 15:40:12 well I find rods too annoying as-is to use on most chars anyway 15:40:27 yeah usually only on Be 15:40:28 resting for charges is really bad IMO 15:40:40 yes, don't use turns 15:42:02 elliptic: Worse than resting for mp how? 15:42:13 <|amethyst> why is it bad on rods but not on spells? because the former don't require as much skill investment? 15:42:31 you can't see how much MP the rod is at 15:42:41 unless you have it wielded, but usually rods are swaps 15:42:48 not even if you quiver it! 15:42:54 HAHA 15:43:02 brilliant 15:43:04 them bugs 15:43:10 for some reason i thought you could see in the description? 15:43:11 -!- Nivim has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:12 -!- kazak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:43:15 I thought I was so smart, quivering the rod to watch its mp 15:43:21 just a message when you ar full 15:43:26 elliptic: Well, if you are resting to recharge, isn't the message good enough? 15:43:27 mumra: I mean, you can't tell without going to your inventory 15:43:38 elliptic: Since probably if you are resting to recharge, you don't just want a point or two, no? 15:43:39 your rod is full i mean 15:43:50 -!- Jevouse is now known as jevouse 15:44:01 DracoOmega: well I can't see whether it is already at full 15:44:04 elliptic: Also, this is another way tiles is superior, since you DON'T need to bring up your inventory to see the charge count! :P 15:44:10 and if it is, I've wasted 100 turns 15:44:14 i can imagine resting is really annoying if you have a few rods and keep getting interrupted by the recharge message 15:44:19 All of them are listed in the corner 15:44:32 i can imagine resting is really annoying if you have a few rods and keep getting interrupted by the recharge message 15:44:37 Maybe there could be a one-character status icon for 'rods recharging presently'? 15:44:47 So that you have some idea whether they're all full or not 15:44:57 but then we should have a single-keypress "fully rest everything up" option 15:45:14 also a "rest if necessary" option 15:45:24 DracoOmega: also, I can't tell how close they are to recharged, and the important thing with many rods isn't being at full anyway 15:45:49 elliptic: i would quite like a y/n prompt if i attempt to rest when i don't need to 15:45:50 if you have a 9 MP rod with freezing cloud, you don't need to be at 9 MP, 6 is plenty 15:46:02 That is true, yes. But I still think if you were stopping to rest, you'd probably want full more often than otherwise 15:46:08 and during battle, I constantly have to check MP to see whether it has recharged to 6 MP 15:46:23 sometimes every single turn I check 15:46:30 er, check inventory 15:46:53 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 15:47:03 being at full isn't important then; being able to use it is 15:47:49 I think these items should unlike spells and that's why I don't like resting for recharge. 15:47:57 add "be" somewhere 15:48:20 "should unlike be spells" :P 15:48:40 is trog's hand a be spell 15:48:42 <|amethyst> Be should unlike spells 15:48:48 <|amethyst> trog demands it 15:48:49 elliptic: I wonder if this isn't something that can't be improved interface-wise instead of just making them charge completely differently? 15:49:22 I guess I find rods kind of fun as-is, but I suppose I also haven't had to worry about that interface issue, since tiles doesn't have it 15:49:29 Where you can see the charge level of all rods at any time, at a glance 15:50:36 console could potentially have a display underneath the monster list? i dunno 15:51:02 but they are weird items 15:51:18 most evokable items are "unusual things that you use occasionally and really need to think about how they are used" 15:51:25 kind of like super-scrolls 15:51:45 Well, I do like rods both in concept and practice, though it would be nice if fewer of the rods were junk :P 15:52:45 (I do have a few ideas I will get to eventually, I expect) 15:53:19 i just don't know if it's that interesting for them to exist as a whole item class 15:53:39 Well, they seem to have been in a pretty reasonable place for a lot of versions now 15:53:42 when one or two would suffice as just something else in the repertoire of misc items 15:54:09 If you're just taking 'one or two' that does imply removing a bunch of even the decent ones 15:54:56 well, the three rods of destruction can be replaced by an improved tome of destruction 15:55:28 DracoOmega: I totally disagree with rods being in a "pretty reasonable place", for balance reasons if nothing else 15:55:28 the rod of clouds grunt is working on could easily just be an xp-recharged misc item 15:55:57 they are basically like a free extra MP pool that takes zero investment 15:56:13 rod of inaccuracy, lightning rod, rods of clouds are all way overpowered 15:56:49 could just nerf the first two's damage? 15:56:50 obviously there are ways of addressing balance, but we haven't done that 15:57:00 They've never felt unreasonable to me, just actually useful 15:57:12 <|amethyst> Inacc should be higher than level 3 possibly 15:57:18 there was also the idea of making them require evo skill to use 15:57:29 via failure rates 15:57:39 yeah, failure chance would be good 15:57:47 -!- Sky2 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:57:56 <|amethyst> that does make them more like spells 15:58:08 <|amethyst> conflicting drives :) 15:58:16 Well, neither inacc or lighting rod seemed that great to me at low evocations already 15:58:23 DracoOmega: currently a single lightning rod can kill an entire line of nearly everything up through XL 16 or so, with very little investment 15:58:29 uh 15:58:33 with the Artificer stuff i was testing i gave the starting rod a flat failure rate and it made me much more inclined to use other techniques rather than kiting 15:58:44 since there was no guarantee that the rod would even work when it next charged up 15:59:10 mumra: Well, if it has a failure rate, I don't think failures should take charges anyway 15:59:13 boo on fail rates 15:59:22 I think number of spell schools should be taken into account somehow when calculating power from evo skill 15:59:23 DracoOmega: i disagree 15:59:32 keep it simple 15:59:43 especially with cloud spells not needing that much power, and direct damage spells being pretty useless on lower powers 16:00:15 elliptic: How much skill are you meaning by 'very little investment', anyway? 16:00:15 DracoOmega: ... or maybe i don't disagree, not quite sure on that one :P 16:00:20 <|amethyst> Medar: I think that would be dealt with in part by not having those spells on rods :) 16:00:28 that works too, yes 16:00:55 <|amethyst> but you're right: number of schools is an important balance factor for player spells that is lost when they are put onto rods 16:01:21 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 16:01:30 DracoOmega: 6-10; evo is a cheap skill, and we are talking about something that kills skeletal warriors etc 16:01:52 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 16:01:59 <|amethyst> !apt evo 16:02:00 Evo: Sp: 4!, DD: 4!, Ko: 3, Ha: 2, Op: 2, Dj: 2, Dr[purple]: 2, Dr[pale]: 2, DE: 2, Fe: 2, Ds: 1, Dr: 1, Hu: 1, HO: 1, HE: 1, Mf: 1, Te: 1, LO: 1, Na: 1, Mi: 0, Gh: 0, Vp: 0, Dg: 0, Gr: 0, Ce: 0, Mu: -1, Og: -1, Tr: -2* 16:02:19 <|amethyst> elliptic: could be made not so cheap 16:02:26 Have any gods been removed since 0.4? 16:02:38 Well, one of the major factors at play here is that actually GETTING a useful rod is relatively uncommon anyway 16:02:41 <|amethyst> !lg * s=god 16:02:42 |amethyst: yeah, could be good at some point 16:02:44 2352503 games for *: 1575480x, 184417x Trog, 89895x Okawaru, 54138x Sif Muna, 52901x Vehumet, 52774x Xom, 51545x Lugonu, 51284x Makhleb, 38591x Yredelemnul, 32760x The Shining One, 28921x Nemelex Xobeh, 28627x Beogh, 27249x Kikubaaqudgha, 22816x Elyvilon, 18670x Ashenzari, 18148x Zin, 15738x Cheibriados, 6621x Fedhas, 1928x Jiyva 16:02:51 DracoOmega: right, we shouldn't balance through rarity 16:02:52 Thanks, |amethyst :) 16:03:02 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:03:11 DracoOmega: if they were more balanced they could be slightly more available 16:03:11 DracoOmega: when someone does get a rod on D:4, it is absurd 16:03:14 elliptic: I think 'powerful but uncommon' is a perfectly sensible place for an item to be 16:03:15 making evo more expensive is good 16:03:17 <|amethyst> broquaint: Fedhas was "Feawn" for a while 16:03:28 Interesting. 16:03:30 <|amethyst> !lg * god=feawn 16:03:31 No games for * (god=feawn). 16:03:34 <|amethyst> !lm * god=feawn 16:03:35 No milestones for * (god=feawn). 16:03:35 DracoOmega: not if it kills everything dangerous for quite a while... 16:03:42 -!- Infinite_Monkeys has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:03:57 Maybe I have never gotten one that early, maybe? 16:04:09 even in lair, they are pretty absurd 16:04:12 Since I more or less haven't encountered a situation where they were more than 'very good' 16:04:14 <|amethyst> speaking of which 16:04:21 clearly haven't xomscummed "successfully" 16:04:31 !lm * god.worship=feawn 16:04:31 77. [2009-11-09 23:33:11] TGW the Grasshopper (L3 DrWr) became a worshipper of Feawn on turn 1640. (D:2) 16:04:31 <|amethyst> maybe Tengu (that you get from mercenary) shouldn't upgrade to tecj 16:04:40 And 'very good' seems like something one should WANT from a rarity. You should feel excited to find one. 16:04:44 <|amethyst> or shouldn't upgrade as quickly as they good 16:05:11 <|amethyst> because that certainly felt like playing on easymode for several dungeon levels 16:05:25 <|amethyst> (pre-lair) 16:05:36 -!- Nameykins has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:05:42 Have any races other than Tengu been renamed? 16:05:55 <|amethyst> !lg * s=crace 16:05:57 grotesk -> gargoyle 16:05:59 2352515 games for *: 262067x Deep Elf, 254980x Demonspawn, 135236x Spriggan, 131653x Minotaur, 129842x Mummy, 128581x High Elf, 97326x Hill Orc, 97275x Mountain Dwarf, 93904x Merfolk, 91968x Draconian, 88740x Kobold, 84731x Human, 80070x Vampire, 75934x Octopode, 73547x Naga, 73342x Sludge Elf, 65091x Troll, 57878x Ogre, 52100x Demigod, 45462x Kenku, 43973x Deep Dwarf, 37073x Felid, 34663x Ghoul, ... 16:06:03 having extremely rare items that are brokenly good tends to be quite bad: boots of running, old ring of ctele ... 16:06:10 I've found the removed - http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Species 16:06:14 <|amethyst> ogre-mage to ogre :) 16:06:17 Thanks, elliptic, got that one too :) 16:06:23 |amethyst: ogre-mage and ogre weren't at all the same 16:06:33 <|amethyst> were ogre and ogre? 16:06:41 <|amethyst> that was before my time 16:06:44 broquaint: that removed species list is out of date 16:06:57 <|amethyst> broquaint: let me find you a file 16:06:59 -!- Chousuke has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:07:01 We've been axing more, and want the credits! 16:07:19 Thanks, |amethyst :) 16:07:20 DracoOmega: balancing by rarity is problematic, also in my assessment. 16:07:21 yes, that list makes it look like nobody bothered to remove a species since 0.10 16:07:22 it was before my time also (but only barely)... but I think that there used to be both ogre-mage and ogre, and then they were merged to just be ogre, with features from both of them 16:07:26 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:30 people will think the devteam is going soft 16:07:30 Oh but when the last 3 were added there were 27 races :/ 16:07:31 elliptic: yes 16:07:44 broquaint: species come, species go 16:07:56 So like life. 16:08:09 Well, if rods are 'balanced' and comparable power with, say, a normal spell conjuration at equivalent skill investment, then finding one feels pretty boring, I think. Especially given that they have other drawbacks (in terms of ammo, say) 16:08:34 DracoOmega: i agree they should be powerful, but with your elemental evokables you achieved this without them being broken 16:08:39 BTW this is apropos of importing all pre-0.11 games into Soup Stash (http://soupstash.broquaint.com/ for the uninitiated). 16:08:41 since the XP recharge is a significant factor 16:08:53 however simply resting for rods to recharge does seem a bit cheap 16:09:08 -!- Infinite_Monkeys has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:09:11 Well, it had never occured to me to see rods as broken previously, myself >.> 16:09:19 DracoOmega: I think I can put it like this: If an item is brokenly strong, then it doesn't help if it's actually rare -- as soon as someone finds it, brokeness. Worse (as in, can spoil fun) if found early. 16:09:58 Conversely: if an item is rare (think unrandart), it needn't be overly strong. Suffices that it's good enough to be worthwhile depending on circumstances. 16:10:04 If something is stupid strong then it certainly can spoil the fun. 16:10:06 <|amethyst> broquaint: http://dobrazupa.org/stuff/crawl-data-extract.yml 16:10:10 DracoOmega: the problem with rods is just that you can really use them to kill everything dangerous early on, and there is no drawback in doing so (with lightning rod, say, so hunger isn't even an issue) 16:10:12 Though if you get something really good really early. 16:10:12 -!- Blade- has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:10:12 dpeg: Well, I am saying that I don't think they are really that dominant even when found, due to generally very limited ammo, among other things. Like, I have never seen a game go from struggling to cruising by any larger a margin than might happen from finding a really nice weapon 16:10:17 That's only going to increase the fun. 16:10:17 <|amethyst> broquaint: that's extracted from one of the data files than henzell and sequell use 16:10:23 -!- jbenedetto has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:10:31 Brilliant, thanks, |amethyst! 16:11:04 DracoOmega: but they don't have limited ammo 16:11:27 <|amethyst> broquaint: it doesn't have all the information you're looking for (renames look like deletes for example) but it might be useful as a double check 16:11:30 -!- Blade- has joined ##crawl-dev 16:11:35 Well, a couple shots of something is hardly enough to end any battle, and with low evocations and enchantment they don't recharge quickly enough to keep using in the same fight 16:11:37 DracoOmega: this is why I would prefer to see some cost other than resting for 80 turns (or kiting monsters) 16:12:00 I probably won't be coming around much anymore. Just wanted to thank you guys one last time for the work you do on Crawl. It was great fun while it lasted :) 16:12:07 Use xp as for the new miscies, I say. 16:12:11 Blade-: You're disappearing? 16:12:16 yeah. 16:12:19 oh man 16:12:27 Blade-: For which game!?! 16:12:32 writing, mostly 16:12:37 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 16:12:39 What is her name! 16:12:43 haha 16:12:45 -!- timpakya has quit [] 16:12:46 heh 16:13:13 Good bye! Be sure to turn up for the next release or tournament :) 16:13:22 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:13:38 good bye and good luck man 16:13:48 Thanks. 16:13:57 This would mean that you cannot spam damage dealing misc items, so they could perform other roles (like mass damage) better. 16:13:59 I'll probably come wandering back in a couple years to see how things are going 16:14:04 -!- Blade- has quit [Client Quit] 16:14:37 I'll probably sound like an ass. 16:14:46 But how do you quit playing games for.. Writing? 16:15:09 <|amethyst> !lg demonblade x=sum(dur) 16:15:10 1096 games for demonblade: sum(dur)=24d+8:58:40 16:15:15 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:15:22 The good thing about a game like Crawl: you can turn away and can tune in a few years later as if nothing happened. 16:15:47 Bloax: let's be honest ... nobody quits crawl 16:15:55 elliptic: If it seems that it is moreso earlygame balance you're concerned about, is something wrong with just lowering their power at low skill and making higher evo more important? 16:16:26 mumra: nobody quits doom either 16:17:27 DracoOmega: well, it is certainly possible to balance lightning and inacc by tweaking power formulas, yeah... all I was saying is that this hasn't been done :P 16:17:42 <|amethyst> That's the one where you make music with your staff, right? 16:17:43 DracoOmega: and balancing clouds is a bit trickier 16:17:47 i think as well as making evo more relevant, we could test out XP recharge -- this would allow the rods to be a) more powerful and b) even slightly more common 16:17:53 since they are already very good at 0 evo 16:18:06 (this is where the failure rate idea could come in) 16:18:19 tinker with the range 16:18:41 (or just replacing the cloud rods with a more unique effect, since we should do that anyway) 16:18:53 <|amethyst> where's the XP recharge code for misc items? 16:19:29 Just as a completely out-of-the-loop remark on XP recharged rods or stuff like that. 16:19:31 Next to the rod recharge code, I think? I actually forget which file, since I had a hard time finding the right one for it 16:19:43 But the xp formula at the moment is very... um... crude? And probably very bad. 16:19:45 It would probably be best for them to have a very large pool of mana for you to use. 16:20:03 So I am double-reluctant to apply it to other items without some more adjustment 16:20:07 Which would then slowly recharge with experience gained. 16:20:16 Or blow a recharge scroll for an instant boost. 16:20:48 elliptic: I do see the concern with them being good at 0 evo, but I don't actually like failure idea very much. Especially if it wastes charges (since there are often few), but probably even if it doesn't. 16:21:19 Or like, maybe failure could be okay, but something that could be outright eliminated by sufficient evo? I put a failure change on the elemental evokers for a bit, but I found that it felt really awkward when ocassionally (rarely) they just didn't work 16:21:24 DracoOmega: I don't like it a huge amount either, because it makes them even more like spells 16:21:41 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 16:22:00 That is also a point 16:22:15 (I'd prefer to keep them failureless and make them recharge in some other way) 16:22:25 btw, recharge from exploration is also possible 16:22:35 -!- g4spr0m has quit [Quit: Teleportation successful!] 16:22:40 we desktop dungeons now 16:22:41 the idea is that the rod absorbs ambient magical energy 16:22:42 That might be easier to get a formula for than xp was, anyway 16:22:56 Since the size of the floors remains roughly the same no matter your xl 16:23:03 But rate of xp gain changes wildly 16:23:39 orc, famous for having little magic 16:23:40 yeah, and I think piety from exploration works pretty well for ash, at least in the main dungeon 16:23:47 tenofswords: ? 16:23:55 it only really fails in sprint 16:23:57 (orc levels are small) 16:23:59 Seobe (L14 LOBe) ASSERT(count == 1 || you.where_are_you == root_branch) in 'dungeon.cc' at line 1445 failed. (Orc:1) 16:24:07 Abyss is free recharges then. 16:24:12 tenofswords: iirc ash piety is based on the proportion of the level you explore 16:24:12 elliptic: yes, that is true. The advantage of recharge for xp would be that is fits nicely with the other items. 16:24:15 Because exits are everywhere. :r 16:24:16 oh 16:24:21 I might be wrong though 16:24:22 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:24:45 dpeg: well, they could be recharge from exploration too... just mentioning it as a possibility 16:24:48 I think it is, with some larger chunk when you add a new level, or new branch. (IIRC) 16:24:52 elliptic: yes 16:25:40 imo try to keep the number of recharge mechanisms very very limited 16:25:49 I guess you could leave unexplored stuff behind, to recharge your wands if you run into hard times 16:25:51 exploration and xp are both fine, but it seems pointless to have both 16:25:57 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 16:26:03 Not sure if that would be a good thing 16:26:24 no 16:26:26 Medar: well, the unexplored stuff presumably has monsters that are worth xp too 16:26:36 so you are leaving xp beind 16:26:38 behind 16:26:44 Yep, works for XP too 16:26:45 alefury: yeah 16:26:46 Well, one consequence of recharging based on some finite progress-based mechanism (whether xp or exploration or anything similar) is that it seems to me like it would make it less plausible for a strong focus to be on using these items as more than an adjunct to other things you do. Which is not inherantly bad, and somewhat close to where they are now, I suppose, but it does seem like it would cem 16:26:46 ent that more 16:26:47 -!- tureba_ has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 16:27:00 the next level has much more exp, but the same amount of unexplored space 16:27:05 Altough at least you have spawns for that anyway. So you can grind it even if you did explore fully. 16:27:07 and missing out on a little exp is not that bad 16:27:20 not sure if it would be worth the immense hassle, though 16:27:38 monsters are being parked (potentially, and occasionally for reals) already: food, blood (Vp), piety 16:27:42 I guess you could leave D:1 or D:2 or something mostly unexplored and come back for recharging later 16:27:43 -!- sepik121 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:27:48 that sounds like even more hassle than the yak farm for vamp draining on a DD 16:27:56 but you can already do this for ash piety and it doesn't seem to be an issue 16:27:59 its very much worth it in desktop dungeons, which has recharge of hp and mp from exploration 16:28:10 dpeg: I think basically nobody parks things for food, unless you mean saving a whole floor for later, in rare cases (eg: a ghoul) 16:28:14 unexplored space is one of the most important resources in that game :) 16:28:18 I say that the proper solution is to make monsters vanish: there is no reason that yak pack has to obediently wait on L:4 until you mercifully decide to come back and kill them at last. 16:28:18 Ash piety isn't really worth much, the way I play anyway 16:28:26 elliptic: Well, Ash piety as a consumable quantity isn't really very useful 16:28:29 Sure you want it to stay high, but you rarely use it up 16:28:30 (it's pretty awesome! but would suck in crawl!) 16:28:31 elliptic: But more lightning shots is 16:28:43 alefury: It's annoying when you have to do things in a very specific order to win. 16:28:44 Maybe if you play stabber that uses scrying a lot, or something like that 16:28:46 DracoOmega: getting ash piety raised quickly is good... 16:28:53 [/offtopic] 16:28:58 DracoOmega: I'm thinking about coming back long before ash piety is maxed 16:29:00 elliptic: But then why would you save it? Oh, from BEFORE you have Ash 16:29:06 yes 16:29:11 Okay, that makes a bit more sense :P 16:29:11 <|amethyst> dpeg: maybe migrate to other levels; it would be weird if uniques vanished entirely 16:29:23 |amethyst: not for uniques, of course 16:29:28 DracoOmega: well, you might also not be bound very much yet 16:29:33 Those guys have character and will wait! :) 16:29:37 DracoOmega: and wait for the higher multiplier 16:29:46 With rods I can see this being a longer-term concern, though, since it's not like you'd just hit something and be done with it 16:29:53 <|amethyst> unique farm on L:4 for vampiric draining purposes 16:29:57 dpeg: sounds like a mummystabbing boost (at the cost of the xp) 16:30:05 dpeg: I don't really see a benefit to this kind of odd background behavior, since I think it is addressing a non-problem 16:30:26 dpeg: I think things are virtually never parked aside from stuff too dangerous to handle at the time, and what's wrong with letting THAT stay around? 16:30:28 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 16:31:05 DracoOmega: I don't push the issue since it seems to happen never, or very rarely (there were reports about this for Vampires and their "blood fridges" in Lair). 16:31:31 Well, vampires do have somewhat unique concerns, but I don't know that is even very common there? And certainly almost never happens elsewhere in decent play. 16:31:54 I think the game in general would be better, if trivial monsters are just taken off the map. So if you come back and some monster has become trivial by then, who cares? 16:32:12 It is satisfying to come back to things that were once scary and then steamroll them 16:32:21 * dpeg has been trained to purge scumming behaviour. 16:32:22 And seems harmless from a balance perspective to me 16:32:39 Well, it's not really scumming, since by that point they're not really likely to give you a noticable reward :P 16:32:43 has the trivial monsters problem gotten any better with the new mon-pick btw? 16:32:58 alefury: Well, actual rarity lists haven't been adjusted much 16:33:01 Aside from Crypt, of course 16:33:01 because that was a thing that was discussed back then 16:33:09 deep cockroaches, rats, etc 16:33:13 Speaking of which, how has that been playing over my absence? :P 16:33:33 DracoOmega: scumming, for me, includes "tedious activities". 16:33:38 deep weaklings was removed a while back even pre-mon-pick revamp 16:34:18 dpeg: Killing leftover stuff on old levels is generally not tedious, since it mostly happens incidentally to you returning anyway. Or returning to explore it full when you didn't before, which isn't really more tedious than exploring any other unexplored place 16:35:08 DracoOmega: It seems I have a lower threshold for tedium than you do :) 16:35:14 well, it is kind of tedious, because the exp you get is worth far less when you are higher level 16:35:28 otoh, you can just spam tab so its okay 16:35:31 DracoOmega: all the bolts of draining are demoralizing, and I haven't figured out how I should handle lost souls (particularly from DEDMs), but the branch seems improved. If xp is reduced overall I have no idea how I'd handle it though, I'm putting off vaults and crypt to after the 2 lair branches when possible. 16:35:34 oh speaking of ash piety, thoughts on removing piety from runes? i mention this every so often and forget to ever do anything about it 16:35:35 Well, generally if it's at a point where the exp isn't worth much, you also can breeze through it very quickly 16:36:00 since technically it makes picking up runes bad if you are going to convert to ash later and it's not a very significant source of piety anyway 16:36:20 it generally doesnt matter because you already have piety when you get runes 16:36:26 Piety for runes doesn't seem worth a lot anyway, since hopefully you already have max piety by them 16:36:30 Unless you converted later, I guess 16:36:32 marvinPA: I say axe it, and I hate stuff being cut :) 16:36:33 hence "if you are going to convert to ash later" :P 16:36:34 (I didn't even know you got piety for this) 16:37:00 It's nice flavour, but gameplay wise I can certainly see the problem. 16:37:02 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: isn't there still a problem of leaving things unexplored if you're going to convert later? 16:37:23 <|amethyst> I guess you actually have a tradeoff there, though 16:37:25 <|amethyst> unlike runes 16:37:28 i mean even if you do convert later it's only likely to be a bit of piety (10 per rune, and how many are you really going to leave before converting), but it seems easy to fix and not a very impactful change 16:37:50 rchandra: Yes, I suppose frequency of draining did go up... though a lot of them are probably from less scary sources 16:38:48 is !tell caps-sensitive 16:38:50 its okay to give people a reason to wear rN imo 16:39:03 Yes. Well, wraiths hopefully already do that 16:39:05 !tell zannick i dont think so 16:39:06 alefury: OK, I'll let zannick know. 16:39:09 !messages 16:39:10 (1/1) alefury said (4s ago): i dont think so 16:39:13 ok 16:39:16 <|amethyst> !tell ZANNICK no; it in fact smashes case 16:39:17 |amethyst: OK, I'll let zannick know. 16:39:21 We did this solely for flavour, and if there is a gameplay issue (as MarvinPA points out), just do away with it. 16:39:25 SMASHCASE 16:39:26 Zannick: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:39:28 !messages 16:39:29 (1/1) |amethyst said (13s ago): no; it in fact smashes case 16:39:35 kthx 16:39:47 -!- ophanim1 is now known as ophanim 16:43:13 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:55 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 16:45:38 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:45:58 slurm (L27 DjFE) (Crypt:1) 16:49:15 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 16:50:05 -!- Pacra has quit [Client Quit] 16:51:36 <|amethyst> !lm slurm crash -log 16:51:37 1. slurm, XL27 DjFE, T:168647 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/slurm/crash-slurm-20130604-214557.txt 16:51:55 <|amethyst> hm 16:52:01 <|amethyst> SIGTERM inside curses 16:52:17 <|amethyst> in the skill menu 16:52:24 So... no plants in Lair. This feels very wrong to me. 16:52:56 <|amethyst> could add some code to place them but never adjacent to walls 16:53:02 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 16:53:20 Well, a fair part of the map is adjacent to walls 16:53:27 <|amethyst> or figure out a way to place them without disconnecting things 16:54:24 Well, the only 'problem' was plants in corner nooks something saying that things were fully explored when they weren't (even though all that was missed was almost certainly another wall tile), yes? 16:54:41 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: for values of "corner nooks", yes 16:54:49 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: also that they could actually hide things 16:55:01 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: theoretically 16:55:01 Theoretically, but I think that almost never happened 16:55:09 (And frankly, probably it doesn't matter even if it did) 16:55:20 ah, when kilobyte pulled the plug 16:55:21 The place looks all kinds of bare now by comparison, so I don't really feel this was an equitable trade 16:55:27 <|amethyst> still, I think it wouldn't be good to just pretend you've explored everything when really you haven't 16:55:55 Coudn't you simply run checks after the maps is generated: each run, check if there are spots out of sight due to plants; if so remove a plant, and keep going. 16:56:13 That sounds possibly a little time-intensive 16:56:30 But yes, I can agree that the old situation was not ideal, but this frankly feels worse to me at the moment >.> 16:56:34 there are lots of ways to optimise it 16:56:39 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: I don't think so, compared to the many flood-fills we already do 16:56:44 I believe that everyone agrees Lair should have plants. 16:56:48 <|amethyst> one possibility: if all the walls (and plants) surrounding this cell form a contiguous arc, it's okay to place a plant here 16:56:56 -!- Datul has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:57:07 kilobyte just did it to force someone to do something about the interface annoyance. 16:57:13 <|amethyst> the problem is when placing the plant cuts off two previously-connected floor cells 16:57:52 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:58:04 <|amethyst> however, this would probably require placing plants after rather than during ruination 16:58:09 |amethyst: Doesn't autoexplore still sometimes complain if you just can't see certain wall tiles from that angle? 16:58:11 <|amethyst> I don't see a problem with that, though 16:58:15 Even if they're no disconnected squares 16:58:33 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: if you couldn't see the tile, how do you know it's not floor with an item on it? 16:58:35 the explored thing isn't just plants btw, I have had it say fully explored when the X map shows a gap in the outer wall that has not been explored yet and no plant blocking access 16:58:36 autoexplore doesn't know if future exploration might be possible from there 16:59:00 if I see it happen again I'll save and submit 16:59:01 <|amethyst> geekosaur: that's a different (and opposite IMO) problem 16:59:17 <|amethyst> geekosaur: I've seen it once or twice and I *want* to say it's on mantis but I'm not sure 16:59:24 dpeg: Yes I know, theoretically. But in practice it's almost always clear there is nothing 16:59:24 -!- C7ty1 has quit [Quit: If you can't laugh at yourself, make fun of other people.] 16:59:48 Kind of like how people used to not bother to fully autoexplore Swamp, say, due to the outer rim 16:59:52 <|amethyst> IMO "finished exploring" shouldn't be a 99% thing 17:00:05 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:00:18 Well, in places like Shoals it still basically is (less than 99% even) 17:00:38 DracoOmega: the thing is that players will (a) think that might be missing something and (b) the interface actually encourages that belief (by the message we print when autoexplore cannot go on). Therefore they look at the level map, hunt for the bad spots, and tediously hack away some plant. 17:00:38 <|amethyst> I don't personally like how shoals was handled 17:00:50 <|amethyst> but 17:00:57 <|amethyst> I can't think of a better way 17:01:11 dpeg: Mostly I think people just ignore hunting for those plants, in 99% of cases 17:01:16 |amethyst: maybe, but for Lair we can do better 17:01:23 -!- Notorion has quit [] 17:02:00 DracoOmega: I think we have to be stricter than that. "If you're annoyed by it, don't do it!" does not cut in this case. Optimal play dictates to do the annoying routine action. 17:02:18 <|amethyst> and pretending it is complete when it is not makes that worse 17:02:26 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:02:31 <|amethyst> because then optimal play dictates to search every level for explore horizon 17:02:40 I am not even sure that it is optimal, to be honest, and certainly no one is going to play 100% optimal for a 0.000001% advantage 17:03:02 I am not saying that it wouldn't be better if those autoexplore messages didn't happen there! 17:03:12 DracoOmega: sigh, you haven't been around when we settled all those things :) 17:03:17 it wouldn't be time optimal or interest optimal to look around that far 17:03:20 ??optimal 17:03:21 optimal[1/1]: let mikee do it for you, optimally. 17:03:25 ...bah 17:03:31 Yeah, the old message worked better there :P 17:03:43 Probably is it not food optimal either if you want to chop down every plant in Lair :P 17:03:44 It is enough that players think it is optimal, and have some good reason for this. (Enough to make us do something about it.) 17:04:18 our duty to ensure that players don't good-willed players don't bore themselves 17:04:30 damn, it's too late for me to type properly 17:04:49 I do certainly agree with that principle in general 17:04:50 Encore: our duty to ensure that good-willed players don't bore themselves. 17:04:54 -!- ldf has quit [Quit: ldf] 17:05:11 Though I think there are sometimes limits beyond which we need to worry about any sane person doing :P 17:05:40 just wait until somebody comes up with a script to do it 17:06:07 I'm pretty sure it isn't optimal and that most people don't think it is optimal 17:06:21 turns cost piety, spawn potentially dangerous monsters, etc 17:06:30 DracoOmega: kilobyte was sufficiently annoyed by it to go for drastic action (and I think he is right) 17:06:32 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:06:45 dpeg: what action? 17:06:52 he removed all the plants 17:06:52 removal of Lair plants 17:07:09 oh, I missed that :P 17:07:15 anyway, i think its probably bad to outright lie to the player 17:07:26 hiding information is fine, misinformation is not 17:07:31 elliptic: again, it's not really important what the objectively optimal solution is. 17:07:41 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:02 !learn add optimal[1] what do you even mean, turn optimal? time optimal? resource optimal? safety optimal? opportunitity costs easily make this term mean nothing. 17:08:03 optimal[1/2]: what do you even mean, turn optimal? time optimal? resource optimal? safety optimal? opportunitity costs easily make this term mean nothing. 17:08:12 good enough copy-paste from... four months ago 17:08:18 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 17:08:19 also, it would be good if autoexplore could explore the level, so placing plants in a way that lets it do this would be great 17:08:33 yes 17:08:45 plants can easily block parts of the level elsewhere, outside of lair 17:08:46 !learn edit optimal[1] s/unitity/unity/ 17:08:46 optimal[1/2]: what do you even mean, turn optimal? time optimal? resource optimal? safety optimal? opportunity costs easily make this term mean nothing. 17:08:57 alefury: assuming that something like Yiuf's occasional plant fence is alright? 17:09:35 it's a lot easier to see on X yiuf's plant fencer instead of a tiny corner plant 17:09:41 I don't think plants sometimes blocking stuff is really a problem. Plants very often blocking small corners is. 17:10:03 <|amethyst> yeah, the problem is that the ruination algorithm encouraged it 17:10:06 tenofswords: for example, yeah 17:10:12 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 17:10:20 <|amethyst> (still does, it's just that lair currently says not to place plants when ruining) 17:10:21 also, these plants actually serve a purpose 17:10:38 the plants in lair served various purposes 17:10:46 more than the yiuf ones IMO 17:10:46 Yes 17:10:52 elliptic: yes, but not the ones in the nooks and crannies 17:11:01 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 17:11:05 elliptic: everyone agrees that lair should have plants 17:11:08 yes 17:11:14 then why were they removed? :P 17:11:21 elliptic: serious? 17:11:23 so someone readds them properly 17:11:36 I don't believe in this "make the game clearly worse to encourage other people to make it better" thing 17:12:04 me neither, actually 17:12:13 but oh well 17:12:14 Yes, it's not like the old situation was some dramatic catastrophe in need of immediate fixing, even if it could use fixing 17:12:14 elliptic: I believe that kilobyte was honestly aggravated... I usually am when I see Lair levels don't get autoexplored properly. 17:12:17 it is just punishing all the *players* 17:12:33 <|amethyst> the previous behaviour punished the players 17:12:48 |amethyst: not as much as this, IMO 17:12:50 perhaps different sets of players!? 17:13:18 <|amethyst> then maybe we should re-add Mountain Dwarves 17:13:21 ??? 17:13:27 <|amethyst> since that punished a lot of players 17:13:29 anyway, can't we agree on a routine that places plants as they used to be, then runs a number of plant-removing passes until autoexplore can see enough? 17:13:29 what do MD have to do with anything? 17:13:31 I could train myself to look with X to see if the autoexplore message was meaningful. I can't train myself to add plants to lair. 17:13:36 <|amethyst> those who liked playing mountain dwarves 17:13:48 Well, the point is that MD removal was considered better for the game, yet plant removal in Lair is not 17:13:55 |amethyst: MD : crawl-dev = godwin : rest of the world 17:13:56 Regardless of temporary annoyances in either case 17:14:00 -!- |amethyst has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:14:01 dpeg: yes, and I've suggested that before, and I even was planning on looking into it sometime myself 17:14:12 dpeg: I don't see how removing plant now helps this at all 17:14:15 oh, didn't know, sorry 17:14:39 oops, did I offend |amethyst? 17:15:10 I don't necessarily think it was your doing 17:15:14 !tell |amethyst Didn't mean to offend you -- sorry! I am from Germany, we've long since traded humour for tanks. 17:15:14 dpeg: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 17:15:20 or I did or something, I don't really understand... maybe he honestly prefers no plants to bad plants? 17:15:59 I don't even think the plants were really that BAD, even though it's certainly an issue that could use fixing 17:16:20 !seen kilobyte 17:16:21 I last saw kilobyte at Tue Jun 4 19:03:39 2013 UTC (3h 12m 42s ago) saying '|amethys1: you meant calc_unid=false, right?' on ##crawl-dev. 17:16:43 if people actually think that no plants is superior to the previous status, that's one thing 17:16:47 !tell kilobyte Meow! You're fine with Lair plants, as soon as autoexplore can do its thing properly? 17:16:48 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 17:16:48 -!- Krakhan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:16:57 elliptic: I don't think so. 17:17:07 I just think it is silly to remove them if people don't think this 17:17:22 Well, it doesn't seem people think this, at least from the straw poll in this conversation already 17:17:36 there are no plants in lair? 17:17:45 At the moment, it seems 17:17:50 Mu_: nope. Prepare for the Great Deluge. 17:17:56 how come 17:18:02 because kilobyte 17:18:06 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:18:21 Various differences of opinion over plants sometimes blocking autoexplore 17:19:06 This isn't really a major issue. Certainly now worth to have two developers moping in their respective closets. 17:19:51 well the plants are the terrain feature in lair and yeah they screw up autoexplore, but so does water in shoals, acid walls in slime and Literally Everything in swamp 17:20:00 that's my 2c, cheers 17:20:48 btw whoever changed recall for yred is awesome, had a lot of fun with yred because of that change 17:21:07 Mu_: even posted on the forum about it :P 17:21:14 ye! 17:21:35 -!- iris has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:21:39 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:24:01 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 17:24:14 Mu_: that was DracoOmega, and it is indeed great :) makes yred playable for me again 17:25:20 DracoOmega has only read the Crawl design principles in skimming, but he sure comes up with quality content :) 17:25:46 crawl only attracts the best contributors imo 17:25:55 i certainly didnt think it was possible for one person to make so many good new monsters 17:26:18 Well, thank you all :) 17:26:26 alefury: you can call him God, if you like 17:26:36 And on the seventh day, DracoOmega took a break. 17:26:37 Pfff 17:26:45 haha 17:27:30 DracoOmega: now it is your turn to say something about how you can only come up with this much good stuff because you are coding on the computers of giants, or something. 17:28:11 Haha, I do not think my own computer could qualify for that moniker these days :P 17:29:28 Newton unique, keeps muttering "actio = reactio" 17:29:39 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 17:30:24 permanent pain mirror? 17:30:43 -!- pelotr0n is now known as pelotron 17:30:58 hm 17:31:08 slime creature unique: great idea or greatest idea 17:31:21 Most titanic idea? 17:31:47 don't know but that reminds me that I wanted to ask kilobyte what he'd think about giant orange brain form, now that jelly form is gone 17:31:55 heh 17:32:10 giant orange brain form would at least be able to cast spells presumably 17:32:13 yes 17:32:26 I am in favor of more badforms that can still cast spells 17:32:48 Iainuki (anyone remembers her) was really fond of a GOB species :) 17:32:49 jessicaform 17:34:19 bhform 17:34:24 causes you add levels to the abyss 17:34:42 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:34:44 -!- IsaacSin has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:35:04 mumra form: causes you to take powers of vaults 17:35:47 -!- Perryman has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:36:12 -!- Snarwin has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:36:19 -!- tgcid has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:36:29 -!- _dd has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:36:45 singing sword form 17:36:46 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 17:36:57 tt to do sonic damage at high tension 17:37:27 * dpeg has the nagging feelings that some of his coworkers are in singing sword form 17:37:46 hahaha 17:38:26 actually, artefactform sounds kind of neat now that i keep thinking about it 17:39:14 Hands up, who wants to be Devastator? 17:39:29 wyrmbane form 17:40:14 but no, i was actually picturing randarts, something like "mace of jokeserver's wrath" with the playername included 17:40:57 so basically dancing weapon form? 17:41:29 A brand based on your skills! Fire mage = flame brand, etc. :P 17:41:33 (Probably not at all sane) 17:41:40 my main problem with artefactising player names would be casing and numerals 17:42:47 mumra: we have a similar problem with randgods (for much later, when(ever) they'll give rise to player gods)... jpeg solved the issue by writing a routing that takes strings (e.g. player names) and spits out nice, garbled Crawl-style names made from them. 17:43:05 what about N78291 17:43:16 You must have seen it because you commented in the randgod thread (thanks again btw). 17:43:29 mumra: won't become a god :) 17:43:44 but otherwise it would be a really cool idea, maybe after a ghost has defeated x number of players it becomes a randart 17:43:49 it would actually be "78291" becoming the god 17:43:50 but he deserves deification most 17:43:55 since that is what he plays as 17:44:17 i guess you could convert it to seveneighttwonineone then use jpeg;s routine 17:44:28 purely random, of course - a pity but cannot be helped 17:47:55 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:47:56 \overbar{LXXVIII}CCXCI 17:48:27 hm, that may not be common notation 17:51:50 vertexvortex (L4 LOHe) ERROR in 'libutil.cc' at line 1019: screen write out of bounds: (1,14) into (42,13) (Zot (ZotDef)) 17:52:02 vertexvortex (L4 LOHe) ERROR in 'libutil.cc' at line 1019: screen write out of bounds: (1,14) into (42,13) (Zot (ZotDef)) 17:52:26 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:52:32 -!- Pacra has quit [Client Quit] 17:54:48 -!- atomicth1mbs is now known as atomicthumbs 17:56:31 -!- nybrid has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:57:25 -!- Arivia has quit [Quit: Arivia] 17:58:24 on recently discussed things: recharging for exploration did cross my mind before but the reason i dismissed it was due to the thing of saving areas for later 17:58:46 however it just occurred to me that there's an orb run consideration 17:59:11 if you're planning on being able to use rods during the orb run you might want to save some areas for much much later 17:59:21 whether that's interesting or not i'm not sure 18:01:09 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:15 but i also don't see a problem with having a few different recharge mechanics, item descriptions can communicate this quite effectively anyway 18:01:31 I don't really like exploration for rods, due to providing a legitimate (I think) case to actually want to avoid exploring stuff (to a much larger degree than Ash piety ever has) 18:01:37 and there aren't going to be a massive number of different systems whatever happens 18:02:44 either: xp recharge, time recharge, item recharge (scrolls etc.), limited charges, exploration -- that's not many different concepts 18:02:45 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:02:55 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:03:15 mumra: I am not sure, but I have a feeling that we shouldn't encourage players to save areas like this. In my opinion, using xp has some advantages: (a) killings things (with the rod or otherwise) can quickly recharge the rod -- emergent gratification for player actions; this is completely lacking with exploration-recharge; (b) we can much easier address xp farming than we can address exploration farming should we ever decide to do that; (c) it fits ... 18:03:21 ... conceptually with the new items. 18:03:22 DracoOmega: thing is, by not exploring areas you always miss out on XP and items; the tradeoff is significant 18:03:40 mumra: Yes, but I think in this case it's not an interesting kind of tradeoff to ask players to make 18:03:55 Since not-exploring stuff you otherwise would have is the less fun case 18:04:06 So I think it's bad if there is a tension about doing this 18:04:11 I agree with DracoOmega: one thing is strategical (skipping areas) but the other one is tactical (rod recharge). 18:04:30 -!- Mingan has quit [Quit: I'll give myself a bulldog out of winston churchill] 18:04:57 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 18:06:53 mumra: On a seperate topic, since you are much more familiar with map stuff than I, any ideas on how to sensibly place Lair plants in a way that doesn't break connectivity or that can at least test for this? 18:08:07 -!- Nakat0my has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:19 DracoOmega: yes, i suggested a couple of ideas for algorithms that would improve things when there was a discussion about this the other day 18:08:53 I've read a lot of the backlog, but I suppose maybe I should read the other days, too 18:09:00 Since I really don't like the present state that much 18:09:28 But I figured you're a lot more familiar with some parts of the codebase that would be relevant here ^^; 18:10:22 i think |amethyst's suggestion basically matches what i was thinking 18:10:23 one possibility: if all the walls (and plants) surrounding this cell form a contiguous arc, it's okay to place a plant here 18:11:11 That isn't also the case though, is it? 18:11:15 isn't always* 18:11:23 ah right 18:11:25 no, not quite 18:11:30 the suggestion i made the other day was 18:11:33 #### 18:11:33 ..## 18:11:33 ##P# 18:11:33 #### 18:11:42 Like, that plant still makes some walls invisible to outside 18:11:49 Even though the walls around it are contiguous 18:11:53 every time a wall grid is ruined, clear any plants from surrounding squares 18:12:02 since plants are only placed as the walls are ruined 18:12:12 this would ensure that plants were only placed in the deepest nooks 18:12:13 Well, I think it makes sense to do the plant pass afterward, anyway 18:12:19 so there would never be any areas hidden behind 18:12:27 Oh, I think I misunderstood what you meant 18:12:43 DracoOmega: yes that would also make sense, then |amethyst's suggestion would work 18:12:51 Well, it could still produce situations like the one above, no? 18:12:54 the continuous arc implies that it isn't a passageway to anywhere 18:13:05 There's nothing concealed behind it, but since you can't see all the walls, autoexplore doesn't know there are walls there 18:13:16 DracoOmega: that diagram is only a problem because autoexplore doesn't work properly 18:13:19 And so says that the level is not fully exlored 18:13:21 i hadn't got as far as this yet :) 18:13:28 autoexplore also needs fixing 18:13:34 How can autoexplore KNOW that there's a wall there, though? 18:13:40 oh wait hang on 18:13:44 right 18:15:32 Like, as a player we can guess that probably there is nothing there, but I am not sure how an algorithm is to know this for sure, unless it's just inferring based on the map generator itself 18:15:45 DracoOmega: cannot do that -- can of worms 18:15:51 yeah but we couldn't always guess 18:15:56 depends on other terrainb 18:15:58 dpeg: I didn't mean to suggest we SHOULD guess 18:16:05 yes, I understand 18:16:11 dpeg: Just that it seems impossible for autoexplore to solve this WITHOUT guessing (which is bad, yes) 18:16:27 just remove the offending plant 18:16:35 one option (probably bad) - make plants weaker, make autoexplore more forceful :) 18:16:44 "You look harshly at the plant. The plant withers and dies." 18:16:46 dpeg: it's hard to detect those plants 18:16:49 Well, that reduces plants tactical effects here, which are actually relevant in Lair 18:17:02 Simply not placing plants in these kind of corners solves a large part of the issue, I think 18:17:07 And then don't place plants that break connectivity 18:17:10 DracoOmega: just remove the (one) plant, not the plants 18:17:16 (If a plant has too many walls around it, assume the square is too dark and the plant dies.) 18:17:22 dpeg: I meant to the idea of making plants really wimpy 18:17:32 well this should solve it: make sure there is a continous arc of floor, that is at least 2 grids 18:17:42 then it's *possible* to see all walls 18:17:44 DracoOmega: yes, probably better to leave plants as they are 18:17:55 #### 18:17:55 ..P# 18:17:55 #### 18:18:01 and then autoexplore needs fixing so it'll check both squares to *see* all the walls 18:18:05 You can see all the walls behind that, though, even though there's still only one spot 18:18:27 The problem is with diagonals specifically, I think 18:18:28 DracoOmega: yes but it's about eliminating the negative cases rather than permitting the edge positive cases 18:18:37 -!- kazak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:18:44 Well, it's not hard to just check the diagonals for this specific veto case, is it? 18:18:56 yeah but it's more complicate 18:19:08 since both diagonals being open is also a case we need to eliminate 18:19:19 like, 2 opposite diagonals 18:19:20 Well, that's a connectivity case, isn't it? 18:19:23 that also creates unseen walls 18:19:31 Nivim: would be cool but I suspect this algorithm doesn't catch all cases 18:19:35 true but right now we have that connectivity case 18:19:49 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 18:19:59 I mean, I think that checking for conectivity breaks and then one additional check for this corner case should basically handle it? 18:20:00 -!- rkd has quit [] 18:20:09 But I don't know how to do quick connectivity checks at present (but I assume you do) 18:20:11 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 18:20:27 the connectivity checks assume plants are passable 18:20:45 <|amethyst> I've got something 18:20:45 |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 18:20:48 we could change that but it could break some existing vaults 18:20:50 <|amethyst> not a connectivity check exactly 18:20:56 |amethyst: what is it? 18:21:21 <|amethyst> a purely local (neighbours only) connectivity check 18:21:26 mumra: Well, can't that be parameterized? 18:21:30 <|amethyst> plus a check for the 7-neighbour case 18:21:31 oh, nice 18:22:19 |amethyst: As in check that all neighbours are mutually reachable from each other? 18:22:34 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: not reachable exactly 18:23:04 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: if the passable neighbours are not in one contiguous arc, forbid the plant 18:23:37 (Oh, and on this conversation eariler, I am one of those people who got caught up destroying plants thinking there might be a secret passage somewhere. Stopped after my 10th or so visit to lair.) 18:23:48 I suppose that also makes some unnecessary vetos, but it at least removes the computation complexity of a more thorough connectivity check 18:23:55 Nivim: happens to the best of us :) 18:24:26 Like, that would veto this: 18:24:26 ..... 18:24:26 .###. 18:24:26 ..P.. 18:24:26 .###. 18:24:26 ..... 18:24:32 <|amethyst> it would, yes 18:24:45 But possibly that case is a lot rarer and less noticable than the other kinds of unnecessary vetos 18:24:47 <|amethyst> or 18:24:50 <|amethyst> ... 18:24:55 <|amethyst> #P# 18:24:56 <|amethyst> ... 18:25:05 you could also make a list of to-be-vetoed plants and check for those if vetoing is really necessary 18:25:31 by performing a large range connectivity check 18:26:14 DracoOmega: it could be parameterised but this falls under the "want better connectivity checking for vaults" category which is a whole can of worms :) 18:26:24 -!- tenofswords has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:26:35 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5786 18:26:38 mumra: Ah yes, perhaps 18:26:53 But for the moment I'd be happy enough with some workable solution that at least gets plants back in Lair 18:27:22 yes 18:28:08 And this latest algorithm sounds pretty simple and workable 18:28:28 <|amethyst> I do worry about rejecting so many cases that don't need rejection 18:28:32 well, "one continuous arc of floor, at least 3 tiles" kind of covers every bad case 18:28:42 mumra: I think that rejects a lot of things, actually 18:28:43 <|amethyst> mumra: why at least 3? 18:28:45 -!- Morphy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:28:52 <|amethyst> mumra: 2 should be enough 18:29:00 Well, 2 is more than needed in most cases even 18:29:02 no, 2 could leave unexplored walls 18:29:03 Except diagonals 18:29:07 <|amethyst> mumra: how? 18:29:13 hmm 18:29:14 ok 18:29:22 but autoexplore still needs fixing 18:29:27 <|amethyst> the only situation I saw without a disconnection was 18:29:30 <|amethyst> ##. 18:29:32 -!- vosai is now known as iasov 18:29:33 <|amethyst> #P# 18:29:33 <|amethyst> ### 18:29:38 -!- WaveMotion has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:29:39 Yes, I think that is it 18:29:44 autoexplore might not realise it can maneuver into a position where it can see a wall 18:29:45 <|amethyst> where UL and LR are unexplored 18:29:47 Because LoS works differently on diagonals than other places 18:30:17 honestly, autoexplore isn't smart enough to move through every square next to the plant 18:30:53 it sometimes leaves unexplored walls which you can go back and check if you stand in the right place 18:31:09 autoexplore isn't smart enough to do that first, rather than run all the way around the level then back to confirm that there is a wall there, yes 18:31:31 Zannick: no, it won't even go back for the case i'm describing 18:31:38 let me just reproduce this :) 18:31:54 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:32:49 lol 18:32:55 was just trying to reproduce in webtiles 18:33:04 explored 2 floors before i remembered there were no plants there 18:33:38 <|amethyst> heh 18:33:42 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:34:05 -!- Kalir has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:07 it'd be nice to know which plants are the ones with items under them 18:34:26 so when i get the message "can't reach some items" after completing explore i don't have to find each one to check 18:34:33 Zannick: do Ctrl-F 18:34:48 rather: Ctrl-F . 18:34:52 right, ctrl-f . 18:34:56 i think we stopped items generating under plants 18:35:08 that's also an improvement :P 18:35:18 <|amethyst> it can still happen I think 18:35:24 <|amethyst> but not as often as it did 18:35:25 one more idea to throw into the fire: i could stop ruination from creating diagonal alcoves at all 18:35:31 <|amethyst> ISTR seeing items under plants in recent games 18:36:03 it's still easy to do with ranged weapons, for example 18:36:09 -!- fungee has quit [] 18:36:23 |amethyst: could be some vaults that still do it 18:36:54 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 18:37:04 mumra: depends a bit on how severely autoexplore is broken in your opinion. If it really needs fixing (I am not sure), then that has to come anyway. If not, then it may be easier to change layout generation. 18:37:20 <|amethyst> mumra: do you have to set no_item_gen on every plant you place? 18:37:27 mumra: I considered that, but those are actually nice to have from a tactical perspective 18:37:38 well, it's not "severely" broken, but this is a case that *can* exist on non-Lair levels too 18:37:40 mumra: Since they're nice places to back up and fight things if one happens to be nearby 18:37:48 mumra: It seems easy enough to veto plants in them, though 18:37:57 basically it could move to a square to see more walls but it doesn't; so it says it can't explore further 18:38:03 it's not *hugely* broken but it can be annoying 18:38:14 mumra: yes, certainly annoying 18:38:38 |amethyst: i was thinking maybe there are vaults that *specifically* create items under plants 18:39:00 but we should check if item gen considers plants in vaults equal to plants in layouts 18:39:18 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 18:39:41 mumra: not aware of any, but it would make nice portal vault material 18:40:43 -!- johnny0_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:41:12 -!- iris has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:41:20 -!- browncustard has joined ##crawl-dev 18:41:33 -!- Adder has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:42:03 i dunno, it sounds pretty annoying :) 18:42:22 it's kind of an interface screw if suddenly you can't see items at a glance yet you can still see them with Ctrl-X 18:42:54 mumra: oh, I am not about hiding but having to use up precious turns to get at the items 18:42:55 <|amethyst> hrm... 18:43:02 if something is at your heels, then you have to make choices 18:43:05 <|amethyst> why didn't my code catch this case 18:43:23 -!- blackcustard has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:43:23 -!- johnny0 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:43:32 having to hack through an unnaturally resiliant plant to get an item is very annoying except for the extremely rare case where it was an item that you actually needed in an emergency 18:43:55 how often are you in a situation where picking an item up and immediately using it is a viable tactic? 18:44:12 mumra: yes, that's why I said portal vault: carefully selected items to be put beneath carefully placed plants :) 18:44:21 for the extremely small number of times where that happens, it's more interesting that the item *is* available to be used 18:44:24 ah right :) 18:44:33 should probably be something slightly easier to kill than a plant 18:44:35 does not come up in nature, no question about that 18:44:41 yes 18:44:44 like 3-4 turns is an interesting number of turns 18:44:53 "a malarious plant" 18:44:59 mumra: Were you around for old old bushes? 18:45:03 "do i spend these next few turns getting that incredibly useful item or do i do something else right now?" 18:45:05 When they had like 30 AC or something 18:45:08 haha 18:45:11 i think so 18:45:15 They were terrible 18:45:18 (They're still kinda bad) 18:45:26 -!- johnny0_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:45:26 -!- Perryman|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:45:30 i definitely know there was a point where i wouldn't even consider killing a bush without a decent range spell 18:45:43 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:45:43 or a huge supply of food 18:45:43 players were putting golf balls on the movement key to battle bushes 18:45:47 -!- sacje has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:46:19 well that sounds unneccessary, surely this is why macros were invented? 18:46:53 "Crawl Deluxe Edition: Now with golf ball!" 18:46:56 Hmmm... when was this 'no items under plants thing' added, anyway? Since I definitely remember items under bushes semi-recently (but that might have been early 0.12 now) 18:47:00 * geekosaur watches overhead 18:47:19 And items under bushes is far worse 18:47:23 i'm sure i remember it happening really recently 18:47:30 like the last few weeks 18:47:31 I think I've seen it even in an entrance vault 18:47:41 during tournament? 18:47:42 And I was like "I'll just ignore it and come back when I won't starve to death getting it out" 18:47:55 (Probably never did come back, of course) 18:48:03 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 18:48:26 DracoOmega: level annotation! 18:48:31 I haven't seen it in a while, except for "an arrow/bolt landed under that thing and I need to chopit down to get it back" 18:49:06 -!- Sealer has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:49:11 dpeg: Yes, but I expect I just forgot :P 18:49:13 Or died 18:49:17 I don't really recall 18:49:53 Anyway, my point was that if the change wasn't especially recent, then perhaps vault placed plants and bushes and stuff don't get this protection 18:50:07 Since the bushes were definitely a vault thing 18:51:23 hang on a sec i am just in git blame 18:52:06 %git c9690d0 18:52:07 07kilobyte * 0.13-a0-871-gc9690d0: Don't randomly generate items under firewood. 10(12 days ago, 2 files, 8+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c9690d0fdd21 18:52:16 * Grunt appears! 18:52:45 * dpeg is flabberghasted. 18:52:54 Wait, THAT recent? 18:52:59 yes 18:53:03 i said didn't i 18:53:04 I thought this was like last version or something 18:53:14 Since I don't remember seeing the commit at all :P 18:53:20 Okay, what I was playing was definitely older than that 18:53:21 well you've been away :P 18:53:25 it was the same wave of commits that removed Lair plants, no? 18:53:26 I wasn't away that long! 18:53:28 No 18:54:06 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: sleep] 18:54:17 -!- Sky_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:59:03 -!- rebthor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:00:08 So what's the jihad of the day? 19:00:29 rods 19:00:45 * Grunt zaps a rod. mumra is engulfed in a cloud of acidic fog. 19:01:28 * mumra blows into a conch shell 19:01:49 You hear a shout! x3 You hear a roar! You hear a shout! You hear a bark! x2 You hear a roar! You hear a shout! x5 19:06:30 You hear a grinding sound. x25 19:08:08 You see a spriggan baker wielding a salt mill 19:08:40 You smell fresh bread. 19:10:33 The spriggan baker a-salts you! 19:11:34 |amethyst: Incidentally, does this mean that you are working on actually coding up the new plant placement checks? Since I was otherwise wondering if I should poke at it or not. 19:11:49 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 19:11:55 -!- anidude has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12:18 -!- hart__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:54 <|amethyst> I have some code, but for some reason it's not always working 19:13:12 Oh? 19:13:23 <|amethyst> but then when I check in the debugger, _forbidden_plant() returns true 19:13:43 <|amethyst> even though there's a ruination-placed plant there 19:13:50 -!- AriaB has joined ##crawl-dev 19:13:54 And you're sure that's where the plant came from? 19:13:56 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:13:58 <|amethyst> and I do all the plant placement at the end, after ruination 19:14:11 <|amethyst> reasonably, let me double-check 19:14:27 Since there are, what, at least 3 or more ways for plants to show up there? 19:14:36 |amethyst: _add_plant_clumps 19:14:41 it happens after _ruin_level 19:14:58 <|amethyst> yeah but 19:15:01 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:15:11 <|amethyst> I don't see this when ruination plants are disabled 19:15:20 <|amethyst> or does add_plant_clumps take existing plants as seeds? 19:15:24 It might 19:15:27 It does. 19:15:36 (I learned this while working on Forest.) 19:15:41 <|amethyst> well, then 19:15:42 -!- Ero is now known as Eronarn 19:15:45 <|amethyst> fixable enough 19:15:51 Just put the check there too, I guess? 19:18:41 Grunt: you know when you made those changes to stop Abyss drowning deaths 19:18:59 what was that thing you mentioned that you changed that you weren't quite sure about 19:19:08 i seem to remember something vaguely to do with map markers 19:19:30 but i'm sure this bug started after then (i commented when i saw it in the abyss, then others have reported it) 19:19:32 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7148 19:20:57 <|amethyst> %git ce25248dbd 19:20:57 07Grunt * 0.13-a0-880-gce25248: Don't fail asserts after placing Abyss vaults. 10(12 days ago, 1 file, 10+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ce25248dbd0c 19:21:30 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:21:58 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:23:42 so ... what does env.markers.activate_all() actually do? 19:23:56 That's not going to be the cause of the problem. 19:24:20 I remember when we were discussing this, I noticed that as a result of my changes we were missing a call to tile_init_flavour on vault tiles. 19:24:34 ...and we weren't sure if this would cause problems at the time. 19:24:36 mumra: Stop things from crashing 19:24:42 mumra: I have no idea its other purpose 19:25:02 maybe tile_init_flavour could be the cause? 19:25:12 it *looks* really similar to a lava orc problem that edlothiol fixed 19:25:14 I have a fix in mind; I'm going to go see if it works <_< 19:25:33 when you were in lava the display wouldn't update 19:25:38 didn't affect console 19:27:31 <|amethyst> hm, no, still problems 19:27:54 <|amethyst> and these aren't being place by _add_plant_clumps (I'm using different colours) 19:27:59 Odd 19:28:32 Was _add_plant_clumps at least PART of it, you think? 19:29:21 <|amethyst> I don't think so 19:29:32 Hmmm 19:30:10 <|amethyst> would have to be either something that alters the grid after ruination; or the monster not going where it's supposed to go 19:30:27 -!- fdel has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:30:37 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 19:30:37 <|amethyst> or something moving the monster 19:32:23 Are the plants being made with BEH_FORCE_PLACE? 19:32:46 <|amethyst> MG_FORCE_PLACE? 19:32:55 Yeah, that 19:33:32 <|amethyst> haha 19:33:35 <|amethyst> nope :) 19:33:41 Well, hopefully that's it :) 19:35:24 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1436-g48d5e48: Init tile flavours for abyss vaults (#7148). 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=48d5e480f485 19:38:45 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 19:39:41 <|amethyst> doesn't help :( 19:40:20 kill with fire? 19:40:22 |amethyst, DracoOmega: what are you investigating, exactly? 19:40:32 |amethyst: Doesn't help? Seriously? 19:40:37 only you can create forest fires! 19:40:45 <|amethyst> Grunt: I'm trying out some rules to prevent placing plants badly in lair 19:41:02 -!- Guest62734 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:41:13 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:41:15 -!- Guest62734 is now known as SwissStopwatch 19:41:27 <|amethyst> Grunt: but I'm winding up with plants (created by ruination---I'm using a different colour for testing) for which my _forbidden_plant() function returns true 19:43:04 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:43:41 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1437-g7c371d4: Cosmetic tile adjustments to grunt_forest_end_chambers. 10(57 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7c371d45941f 19:44:06 |amethyst: so you can't find out how they're getting placed or? 19:44:53 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:16 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:45:48 -!- _dd has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:46:29 |amethyst: sprunge the code 19:46:33 beogh should care about orc chunks, since he says he cares about "orcish remains" 19:47:11 -!- krag has joined ##crawl-dev 19:47:36 jevouse: you mean he should kill you for making them, or he should let you sac them, or both? 19:47:57 samB: sac 'em 19:48:19 and should he care if you LRD a petrified orc? 19:50:19 <|amethyst> http://sprunge.us/LYEU 19:50:28 rchandra: depends if it's yours I think 19:51:22 <|amethyst> okay 19:51:24 I mean, all's fair in killing the other dudes right? 19:52:13 Right. but he won't let you LRD an orcish statue to kill your foes. 19:52:18 <|amethyst> so I have a plant where the position (12,28) had one surrounding passable square when the plant was put there, but three now 19:52:24 <|amethyst> s/one/two/ 19:52:49 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:52:53 So something IS affecting the walls afterward? 19:53:07 <|amethyst> apparently 19:54:07 <|amethyst> nothing looks like a vault though 19:54:40 can you repeat the same generation? 19:54:44 deterministicly? 19:55:11 if so, you could set a watchpoint on a square that changes ... 19:56:06 (note that you'll want to skip the fancy operator[]s and go to the raw arrays) 19:56:43 -!- mamga has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:56:43 (the operator[]s force the SLOW SLOW SLOW method of watching) 19:56:43 <|amethyst> I don't know of a way to regen the level with a particular RNG state 19:56:48 <|amethyst> I guess save and dump the state 19:57:14 you could try the fancy "target record" thing 19:57:25 maybe it's called something a little different now 19:58:26 <|amethyst> does that work on multithreaded? 19:58:35 <|amethyst> because reverse stepping did not 19:58:36 this part is multithreaded? 19:58:36 It is possible that _ruin_vault is affecting areas outside the vault itself? 19:58:41 -!- maarek has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:42 -!- maarek_ is now known as maarek 19:58:42 <|amethyst> no, but the program is 19:58:53 is there a way to force that off? 19:58:58 <|amethyst> I dunno 19:59:26 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 19:59:31 zzz 19:59:35 wait wrong channel 19:59:41 <|amethyst> anyway, I've got to go for now 19:59:46 * SamB thinks you can do something to build it that way, and that mumra might know what it is 19:59:55 <|amethyst> I'm sure there's a better way to do it that what I'm trying 20:00:10 what are you guys discussing? 20:00:25 debugging techniques 20:00:31 oh 20:00:31 removing things 20:00:39 that's more interesting 20:00:42 remove HE 20:01:07 <|amethyst> My attempts to make lair plant generation work without creating the crappy situations where you can't see a wall http://sprunge.us/LYEU 20:01:13 lets put Lightli in just so we can remove him 20:01:13 <|amethyst> anyway, I'm off for now 20:01:28 -!- yogidabear has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:01:53 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:02:21 -!- Gendal has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:03:03 isn't it just that walls are getting ruined afterwards, making plants that already placed suddenly invalid 20:03:33 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:04:11 mumra: do you know how to turn off the threading? 20:04:28 mumra: Well, he said that he moved all plant placement until the end 20:04:36 But I haven't looked closely at the new code 20:04:38 it could let |amethyst do reverse debugging 20:05:00 -!- rebthor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:05:35 oh right yeah 20:05:43 no i have no clue about threading, but i doubt this is threaded 20:05:55 unless Iterator somehow has threading built in, which would be a surprise 20:05:58 yes but GDB seems to not like ANY threads 20:06:12 for this particular feature to work 20:06:16 the only situation i know about is DB init, but to unthread that you have to remove some #ifdefs 20:06:23 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 20:06:51 mumra: there's not a thing you can #define/#undef to do it? 20:07:07 the only thing i know about is disabling threading in database.cc 20:07:21 by going with the DGL_GAMELAUNCH codepath 20:07:23 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:07:31 i assumed that there wasn't any threading anywhere else 20:10:10 Oddly, running that code I am not seeing any misplaced plants myself, though admittedly have only been doing a visual analysis 20:10:17 So many I'm just getting good generations 20:10:26 (Seems to be a fair bit fewer plants in general, though?) 20:10:53 |amethyst: that section which says "Forbid this arrangement when the ? squares are walls." -- I'd say it should be forbidden, period 20:10:54 kilobyte: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 20:11:11 Oh yeah, depth 20:11:26 because no matter if there's a wall or something else, you still need to check 20:11:45 Well, that situation is forbidden by the check BEFORE that, no? 20:12:01 The second check just forbids it additionally if they are walls 20:14:03 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:14:19 -!- kazak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:14:45 Hmmm... yes, I have also found a situation where number of adjacent walls seems to have changed after the fact somehow or something 20:16:42 does ruin_vault get called twice somehow? 20:17:28 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 20:17:40 it's called from _build_dungeon_level, but also from vault placement if a vault has the ruin tag 20:18:22 -!- Zermako has quit [] 20:18:57 <|amethyst> kilobyte: right, the other case should be handled by the preceding code 20:19:00 Can this affect terrain not placed as part of the vault? 20:20:48 <|amethyst> (I turned up the plant frequency to compensate partially for the reduction, but maybe that's not enough) 20:21:14 Yeah, it does seem rather sparser to me at first glance anyway 20:21:33 But perhaps it isn't 20:21:41 You notice these things a lot more when you go looking for them :P 20:24:17 <|amethyst> I'm beginning to think that dpeg's suggestion would be much simpler 20:24:31 But yeah, these problematic plants seem to be consistantly reporting 1 fewer space of connectivity than before, and having an empty spot behind them 20:24:39 (Which presumably got dug out after somehow?) 20:24:43 <|amethyst> yeah 20:24:58 -!- rwbarton has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:25:37 <|amethyst> (dpeg's suggestion being essentially: do a connectivity check that treats plants as impassable, then if there's a disconnection, remove plants on the frontier 20:25:40 <|amethyst> ) 20:26:13 Well, still would need extra handling for plants in the corners, I think? 20:26:29 <|amethyst> that could be forbidden by ruination in the first place 20:26:32 Well, the current algorithm seems simple enough. If it was working. 20:27:26 <|amethyst> I don't like how many good configurations it removes 20:27:48 <|amethyst> in practice there are just two problematic configurations 20:28:41 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 20:28:53 <|amethyst> anyway, I'm off again for a while 20:29:04 |amethyst: so, it sounds like you want to find out what's digging those closets 20:29:12 <|amethyst> SamB: that would be useful 20:29:28 <|amethyst> though better would be if DracoOmega or mumra or somebody figured it out 20:29:31 kilobyte: do YOU know a way we could disable threading in a build? 20:29:57 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 20:29:59 since it evidently prevents using teh reverse mode 20:30:01 has anybody proven that threading is even happening here? 20:30:03 in GDB 20:30:30 I know I've seen GDB mention threads being created when I've started a game 20:30:37 Well, it looks like _ruin_level is getting called quite a few times even on a level with like one vault 20:30:39 <|amethyst> mumra: 20:30:40 <|amethyst> (gdb) reverse-step 20:30:40 <|amethyst> Target multi-thread does not support this command. 20:30:48 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:30:53 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: oh? 20:31:03 This level has just layout_rougey and slime_altar_1 and yet calls _ruin_level 8 times 20:31:08 oh ok, it's built in multi-thread mode but presumably not actually using multiple threads in this case 20:31:10 |amethyst: hmm, well, you need to have invoked the "target remote" or whatever in advance actually 20:31:13 since it'd produce all kinds of unexpected behaviour 20:31:19 <|amethyst> SamB: oh 20:31:20 since i doubt any of crawl is in any way thread-safe 20:31:25 <|amethyst> SamB: I don't know gdb 20:31:27 apart from external libraries like the DB stuff 20:31:28 Wait, 7. But still 20:31:36 maybe i should debug this in MSVC? 20:31:36 <|amethyst> mumra: right, threads are only used for db init 20:31:55 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: can you tell which instantiation? 20:31:58 mumra: do they have "step backwards" in teh debugger there? 20:32:05 |amethyst: Not yet 20:32:12 Going to check that in a minute 20:32:23 anyway, i think DGL builds have threading disabled 20:32:48 hmm 20:33:16 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 20:33:49 <|amethyst> SamB: you probably know gdb much better than me 20:33:53 |amethyst: Seems it's mainly the one in _build_dungeon_level 20:34:08 Getting called a bunch of times, then one call of _ruin_vault afterward, like you might expect 20:34:12 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: are you sure these aren't vetoed? 20:34:15 ?? words 20:34:15 words[1/3]: dear deck demo desk dram fear fest gear gene gest ghee gnar hack haen hare hast hath hear heck hehe here hest heth hewn hoar hock homo hone host husk keen lobe lock mien mine mire mist muck musk must ogre omen open seam sear seas seen sere sewn spam spar spas teak team tear teas teen test tram tree 20:34:18 |amethyst: No, I am not =/ 20:34:23 Now that it has occured to me 20:34:36 |amethyst: the message could use work ... 20:34:37 !learn edit words[1] s/lobe lock/loam lobe lock lost/ 20:34:37 words[1/3]: dear deck demo desk dram fear fest gear gene gest ghee gnar hack haen hare hast hath hear heck hehe here hest heth hewn hoar hock homo hone host husk keen loam lobe lock lost mien mine mire mist muck musk must ogre omen open seam sear seas seen sere sewn spam spar spas teak team tear teas teen test tram tree 20:34:44 yes vetos are more likely 20:34:47 <|amethyst> actually 20:35:02 <|amethyst> I'm seeing 3 calls every single time 20:35:03 |amethyst: as could the manual section 20:35:13 <|amethyst> sometimes 6 20:35:27 Zannick: lore 20:35:27 see (gdb) Process Record and Replay 20:35:32 <|amethyst> which makes me thing we're getting three calls per successful build 20:35:40 kilobyte: oh yes 20:35:56 which really ought to be referenced from near the beginning of (gdb) Reverse Execution 20:35:58 !learn edit words[1] s/lock/lock lore/ 20:35:58 words[1/3]: dear deck demo desk dram fear fest gear gene gest ghee gnar hack haen hare hast hath hear heck hehe here hest heth hewn hoar hock homo hone host husk keen loam lobe lock lore lost mien mine mire mist muck musk must ogre omen open seam sear seas seen sere sewn spam spar spas teak team tear teas teen test tram tree 20:36:05 <|amethyst> gram 20:36:19 i note we still have "gnar" in that list 20:36:32 and se.. 20:36:41 <|amethyst> Zannick: you just added "lost" 20:36:56 !learn edit words[1] s/seam sear seas seen sere sewn // 20:36:57 words[1/3]: dear deck demo desk dram fear fest gear gene gest ghee gnar hack haen hare hast hath hear heck hehe here hest heth hewn hoar hock homo hone host husk keen loam lobe lock lore lost mien mine mire mist muck musk must ogre omen open spam spar spas teak team tear teas teen test tram tree 20:36:58 !lg * lost 20:36:59 |amethyst: _ruin_level is explicitly called multiple times at deeper depths 20:36:59 14. Lawman0 the Miscreant (L1 LOSt), got out of the dungeon alive on 2011-06-17 23:23:43, with 20 points after 1 turn and 0:00:01. 20:37:07 people are playing it! 20:37:08 depth -= 3; 20:37:08 } while (depth > 0); 20:37:13 or were 20:37:13 Zannick: note the date 20:37:16 <|amethyst> derp 20:37:17 also yeah 20:37:21 Yeah, haha 20:37:22 noting the date now 20:37:30 So obvious, yet I never looked at the surrounding statements 20:37:31 (i was just using s=class before) 20:37:37 SamB: i thought things weren't removed from that entry 20:37:37 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: I even touched that code :) 20:37:42 given that gnomes and reavers and stalkers are still in 20:37:45 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: dodn't notice the loop at all :) 20:37:49 <|amethyst> s/dod/did/ 20:37:51 elliott: so put them back I guess 20:37:54 sorry! 20:38:08 sanctity of words must be preserved. amen 20:38:13 -!- Dixlet has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:38:13 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: could batch up the locations and only place plants at the very end I guess 20:38:20 !wtf aneb 20:38:22 Unemployed Unperson 20:38:22 !learn edit words[1] s/open/open seam sear seas seen sere sewn/ 20:38:23 words[1/3]: dear deck demo desk dram fear fest gear gene gest ghee gnar hack haen hare hast hath hear heck hehe here hest heth hewn hoar hock homo hone host husk keen loam lobe lock lore lost mien mine mire mist muck musk must ogre omen open seam sear seas seen sere sewn spam spar spas teak team tear teas teen test tram tree 20:38:24 !wtf amen 20:38:24 |amethyst: Well, the looping could be inside _ruin_level itself 20:38:25 Unperson Enchanter 20:38:39 |amethyst: So that it decays things several layers deep, then places plants as normal afterward 20:38:44 elliott: no such word as amen, sorry 20:38:56 arcane marksman enchanter 20:39:01 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: yeah 20:39:02 precisely 20:39:19 |amethyst: anyway those things starting with parens are info sections 20:39:22 Probably a really straightforward code change, actually 20:39:24 <|amethyst> SamB: yeah, thanks 20:39:30 <|amethyst> SamB: no time to look now but I will 20:39:39 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: anyway, I really must go, so I leave this in your hands 20:39:43 Okay, sure 20:39:49 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 20:40:19 -!- Wensley is now known as Guest68329 20:44:10 !learn add words ex-words and never has been words: fear fest gear gene gest gnar hare hast hath here hest heth host keen lore lost mire mist must ogre omen seam sear seas seen sere sewn test 20:44:10 words[4/4]: ex-words and never has been words: fear fest gear gene gest gnar hare hast hath here hest heth host keen lore lost mire mist must ogre omen seam sear seas seen sere sewn test 20:44:22 -!- fungee has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:44:22 !learn move words[4] words[2] 20:44:22 words[4] -> words[2/4]: ex-words and never has been words: fear fest gear gene gest gnar hare hast hath here hest heth host keen lore lost mire mist must ogre omen seam sear seas seen sere sewn test 20:44:42 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:45:03 !learn edit words[1] s/.*/dear deck demo desk dram ghee hack haen hear heck hehe hewn hoar hock homo hone husk loam lobe lock mien mine muck musk open spam spar spas teak team tear teas teen tram tree/ 20:45:04 words[1/4]: dear deck demo desk dram ghee hack haen hear heck hehe hewn hoar hock homo hone husk loam lobe lock mien mine muck musk open spam spar spas teak team tear teas teen tram tree 20:45:57 brocolee (L16 LOMo) ASSERT(count == 1 || you.where_are_you == root_branch) in 'dungeon.cc' at line 1445 failed. (Orc:1) 20:54:12 -!- qoala has joined ##crawl-dev 20:54:40 -!- Chozo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:13 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 21:00:05 -!- tgcid has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:02:01 you know you've been playing crawl too long when you see something from ??words and the first meaning you think of is the crawl combo 21:02:51 Haha 21:02:56 It's context 21:03:04 honestly none of those look like real words to me unless i really think about it 21:03:30 mumra: maybe if they were not surrounded by OTHER COMBOS it would be easier? 21:03:40 like, aren't you glad to be on the dev team? 21:04:19 on the dev tengu arcane marksman, what are you talking about? 21:04:34 -!- Infinite_Monkeys has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:05:16 Haha 21:06:26 did you hear about that open source demo using aalib to do various screen hacks 21:08:12 -!- CheerUpCharlie has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:08:23 it arrived on my desk but i thought it was spam 21:08:45 hehe 21:08:47 * SamB sends mumra another copy of bb 21:09:05 -!- Wah has quit [Quit: IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT'S BACON!] 21:11:51 -!- Helmschank has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:13:03 Well, this is looking pretty good now 21:13:23 I'm just going to compare with the old version to see if the density is similar, now that placement is more restricted 21:16:06 -!- heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 21:17:10 * geekosaur remembers a past world cup where someone was streaming games over telnet using aalib 21:18:36 !send mumra bb 21:18:37 Sending bb to mumra. 21:18:47 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:24:45 -!- crate has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:25:16 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:32 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 21:26:11 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:27:28 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1438-g47e01a3: Don't clump plants (Lair, Forest) that are in vaults. 10(50 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=47e01a38c8c4 21:27:28 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1439-g0bee7d1: Place the Enchantress on Forest:$ even if the ending doesn't. 10(38 minutes ago, 3 files, 34+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0bee7d189e38 21:27:28 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1440-gd1f02a8: Two additional Forest endings. 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 81+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d1f02a81ad10 21:29:41 Ah, a fatal flaw in my plan to use place-population to count plants 21:29:45 It doesn't count plants 21:30:06 * Grunt is highly amused! 21:30:08 D-: 21:34:37 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 21:34:47 Ely penance with hitting invisible pacified creatures is obnoxious. 21:35:35 bh: indeed 21:35:43 so make it not happen 21:35:59 <|amethyst> %git bed35e5f 21:35:59 07MarvinPA * 0.13-a0-576-gbed35e5: Make invisible allies fully visible to the player (elliott) 10(4 weeks ago, 3 files, 8+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bed35e5f92d5 21:36:09 allies != pacified 21:36:13 indeed 21:36:26 yes i should have made that patch include pacified dudes 21:36:27 is |amethyst suggesting we should take this approach? 21:36:36 feel free to add it to the conditionals 21:36:48 <|amethyst> bh: I'm saying, change friendly() to (friendly() || pacified()) 21:36:57 |amethyst: I like it 21:37:20 I just got penanced for the third time after hitting an invisible pacified vampire. The first time was a pacified unseen horror 21:37:28 <|amethyst> I guess _get_mons_colour needs a separate change 21:39:26 <|amethyst> oh, hm, it can't tell the different between pacified and just neutral, because mon_info doesn't know about GOT_HALF_XP 21:40:53 do we care about neutral invisibles? 21:42:10 -!- johnny0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:42:31 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:44:44 <|amethyst> bh: I think having it work for all ATT_NEUTRAL makes sense 21:44:54 <|amethyst> bh: or, for that matter, all neutrals of any variety 21:45:24 <|amethyst> and neutral() does work for both monster and mon_info 21:45:37 <|amethyst> (that one checks for any of the three neutral attitudes) 21:46:08 <|amethyst> it would be kind of weird to make pacifieds and friendlies visible, but not the two attitudes "in between" those 21:46:48 kind of weird for like invisible corruption stuff to be visible 21:46:52 but it doesn't matter in the slightest 21:47:10 <|amethyst> hm 21:47:18 <|amethyst> those are neutral? 21:47:25 <|amethyst> err, ATT_NEUTRAL I mean 21:47:28 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Quit: quit] 21:48:31 <|amethyst> I guess so 21:49:13 <|amethyst> elliott: the problem there is there's no way to tell the difference from a monster_info (as in _get_mons_colour) 21:49:23 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:49:33 <|amethyst> could add an MB_PACIFIED I suppose 21:52:30 -!- ground4 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 21:55:57 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:03 -!- heteroy has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 22:01:04 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:01:28 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:27 -!- Beneather has quit [Client Quit] 22:04:58 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:05:47 * Grunt is still inordinately amused by his Sil-style ! patch <_< 22:07:15 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:35 if you stab a guy with maxed skills od you get like a million exclamation marks 22:07:36 -!- Helmschank_ is now known as Helmschank 22:09:17 The helpless Antaeus fails to defend himself. You stick Antaeus like a pincushion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 22:09:26 awesome 22:09:45 11!!!11! 22:09:47 -!- squimmy has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:10:22 You open Cerebov like a pillowcase!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 22:10:29 (these are actual quotes from the patch in action <_<) 22:10:42 a beautiful patch 22:11:04 <|amethyst> Grunt: err, is that the linear version? 22:11:04 http://sprunge.us/hjCj 22:11:07 |amethyst: yep! 22:11:39 <|amethyst> I'd probably prefer logarithmic but eh 22:11:58 <|amethyst> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is somewhat silly :) 22:12:07 -!- Helmschank has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:12:18 <|amethyst> !!!!!!!! should be plenty :P 22:12:25 i can't handle that much excitement 22:13:04 <|amethyst> Grunt: I was worried at first that you had found a bug to do INT_MAX damage or something :) 22:20:44 -!- krag has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:21:07 |amethyst: wouldn't that have a few more marks? 22:21:14 or what's the base of the logarithm? 22:21:43 * Grunt digs around for the original patch. 22:21:57 http://sprunge.us/ZXYd 22:22:29 <|amethyst> SamB: base 2, but the first three are fixed in both cases 22:23:14 <|amethyst> SamB: so 26 = 3+23 !s in the linear version becomes 3+5 = 8 !s in the second version 22:23:23 <|amethyst> s/second/logarithmic/ 22:23:59 hmm, I suppose since producing the '!'s is linear, it doesn't matter that the logarithm algorithm is linear in the logirithm ... 22:24:17 (and that's assuming you don't overflow the buffer) 22:24:28 <|amethyst> buffer? 22:24:31 ...you're welcome to implement that better :) 22:24:32 * SamB isn't sure how big a buffer a string normally starts with 22:24:40 <|amethyst> oh, reserved 22:25:33 <|amethyst> you can reserve as much as you want; not sure if defaults are specified 22:25:34 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 22:25:41 <|amethyst> append still amortizes to linear though 22:26:12 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 22:26:22 <|amethyst> or, at least it does if you double the reserve whenever you have to grow 22:26:38 -!- purge__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:30 <|amethyst> Not sure if the C++ standard specifies that, but the SGI documentation for vector does 22:28:49 -!- Helmschank has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:56 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-1441-gf5918dc: Restore plant generation in Lair 10(15 minutes ago, 1 file, 156+ 92-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f5918dc5bf5c 22:28:56 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-1442-gde01e83: Remove fungi and plants from random generation in Lair 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=de01e8375100 22:29:33 <|amethyst> anyway, probably fastest would be to calculate in advance and use string(n, '!') but I doubt it makes much difference in practice 22:29:52 DracoOmega: eh? 22:30:06 What? 22:30:11 your commit messages are confusing at first sight 22:30:20 <|amethyst> heh 22:30:26 Ha, I suppose so, yes 22:30:33 <|amethyst> "random generation" is a term of art :) 22:30:57 he could have used a more specific term in the first commit 22:31:17 <|amethyst> "Restore plant ruination in Lair" :) 22:31:31 <|amethyst> "Ruin Lair with plants" 22:31:38 Haha 22:31:45 I'm sure SOME people would agree to that latter sentiment 22:31:47 that second one is best, yes 22:31:58 because it fits in with the job description 22:32:13 <|amethyst> Does that mean doy is best dev ever? 22:32:19 <|amethyst> Since he introduced ruination 22:33:35 only in terms of corn 22:34:07 -!- tgcid has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:35:15 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: hmm... a problem 22:35:25 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: to_replace isn't cleared between iterations 22:35:28 03ontoclasm 07* 0.13-a0-1443-g4282c7c: Don't add rims to lorc tiles. 10(31 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4282c7cd2bab 22:35:37 |amethyst: we can probably get a totally ordering of devs by induction. For a base case, I'm the worst dev. 22:35:48 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: which is as you want for the plant thing 22:35:50 ??bh 22:35:51 bh[1/2]: When it comes to stupid ideas, I'm your man. 22:36:10 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: but seems to mean you would overwrite the first-ruined features three times 22:36:11 -!- po4724 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:36:14 i claim first quartile 22:37:18 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:37:20 * bh wonders why he installed debian without installing any packages 22:37:34 |amethyst: Oh, hmmm.... Does this do anything except perform duplicate operations? 22:37:41 In terms of changing a feature multiple times? 22:38:21 I admit I didn't look too closely at the inner workings of the ruination code. Just looped it. 22:38:56 should it ever be possible to accidentally get penanced? 22:39:06 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 22:39:07 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: not sure whether it's really a problem or just duplicated work 22:39:19 bh: Ideally no 22:39:27 bh: Some cases are hard to prevent, though 22:39:31 <|amethyst> but "accidentally" != "recklessly" 22:39:52 reading an un-ID'd scroll of immolation in the midst of an orc pack? 22:40:35 Yes, that's one of the 'hard to prevent' cases 22:40:38 <|amethyst> probably that should be forgiven for consistency with e.g. Chei and unided haste 22:40:40 bh: hmm, I don't think we have a compare function for devs ... 22:40:54 In that reading is itself fine, it's just the result of the damage 22:41:05 And presently it's hard to mark damage as 'unknown', I think 22:41:07 l had a fun case with TSO. The only scroll I hadn't ID'd was torment :) 22:41:08 <|amethyst> yeah 22:41:39 -!- ChongLi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41:39 -!- ChongLi_ is now known as ChongLi 22:41:39 -!- dosman711 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:39 -!- IsaacSin has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:41:40 -!- us17 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:41:40 -!- Surr has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:41:40 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:41:40 -!- nCrazed has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:40 -!- Medice2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:10 -!- browncustard has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:42:37 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 22:43:15 how do i make autoexplore stop on swaures with just a single corpse? 22:43:23 Well, probably simplest might be to just maintain two lists. Clear one each iteration and add to the other list only if a terrain replacement is actually made at that spot 22:43:26 when im not following a corpse-saccing god 22:44:00 Which seems simple enough (but not important that I am actually going to go do it this moment now ^^;) 22:45:08 rast: good question 22:45:17 playing DjHe and skillrobin'ing invoc is a good bit of fun 22:47:07 Anything with high Invo ought to do that. 22:47:10 My HOHe win did that. 22:48:13 is that where you play on a round-robin account and get somebody else to get you to adequate levels of invoc 22:48:29 Haha. 22:49:26 SamB: enable one skill until it hits 27 22:49:29 !rng LO HO 22:49:30 The RNG chooses: LO. 22:49:40 bh: where does the "robin" come in 22:49:58 SamB: that technique was the schtick of skillrobin. 22:50:00 ??skillrobin 22:50:01 skillrobin[1/2]: Only train one skill at a time. No switching until you reach 27! 22:50:02 -!- mumblerit has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:07 Grunt: ah 22:50:16 ?? robin 22:50:17 robin[1/1]: Account for round-robin games (one player plays the character, then another, etc.). Login: roundrobin, demorobin, ghostrobin, quitrobin, noobrobin, zigrobin, mnolegrobin, ironrobin, mutarobin, elfrobin, slimerobin, hippyrobin, acidrobin, drugrobin, blindrobin, discorobin, blinkrobin, skillrobin, mummyrobin, dgwnrobin; Password: robin 22:50:30 ?? discorobin 22:50:31 discorobin[1/4]: Pass is "robin". Fun times to be had by all. Give it a shot! (Just don't remove the first part of the config!) If you are looking for whom to blame for this abomination, the answer is slinkies. See also {AcidRobin}. 22:50:35 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 22:50:36 ??skillrobin[2] 22:50:39 skillrobin[2/2]: Originally was a challenge game stolen (by mikee) from Eris Discordia. Maximum range of highest and lowest skill must be 5. This challenge was abandoned after the 0.9 skill changes, however. 22:50:45 ?? discorobin [2] 22:50:46 discorobin[2/4]: Avoid playing if you might need to use your eyes any time soon. 22:50:51 lol 22:51:18 ??quitrobin 22:51:18 quitrobin[1/1]: Incorrect example: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/QuitRobin/morgue-QuitRobin-20080514-063933.txt 22:51:50 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:59 ??demorobin 22:52:00 demorobin[1/2]: Show people how to start . Suicide when you reach Lair, but not on D:3. If you die frequently and leave enough flame elementalist ghosts Sorear may spontaneously offer to demo a character for you. For no particular reason of course. See roundrobin for more. 22:52:47 !learn edit demoribin[1] s/Sorear/sorear/ 22:52:47 I don't have a page labeled demoribin[1] in my learndb. 22:52:53 !learn edit demorobin[1] s/Sorear/sorear/ 22:52:53 demorobin[1/2]: Show people how to start . Suicide when you reach Lair, but not on D:3. If you die frequently and leave enough flame elementalist ghosts sorear may spontaneously offer to demo a character for you. For no particular reason of course. See roundrobin for more. 22:53:19 ?? sorear 22:53:19 ew 22:53:20 sorear[1/7]: Compulsive abbreviator 22:53:33 bh: ew what 22:53:46 leaving a pack of ghosts 22:53:56 yay I figured out how to add a Farmer background :) 22:54:04 probably old hat to folks around here 22:54:18 Farmer would be something you do after the adventure, not before :b 22:54:23 ??farmer 22:54:24 I don't have a page labeled farmer in my learndb. 22:54:28 why is that 22:54:38 that there's no page, I mean 22:54:43 ??farming 22:54:43 farming[1/1]: "Farming" is added to the titles of games lasting longer than 200,000 turns by the IRC bots. 22:54:49 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:54:58 I've added it to my own version 22:55:03 just playing around 22:55:08 -!- twb has joined ##crawl-dev 22:55:32 !lg * farming 22:55:33 No keyword 'farming' 22:55:33 Start off with 3 pieces of fruit and worshipping Fedhas 22:55:35 Running trunk, if I make a Lava Orc Priest, shouldn't he follow Beogh, and not Zin? 22:55:42 !lg * t>200000 22:55:42 Unknown field: t 22:55:45 johnstein: that's more of a Druid, not a Farmer, IMO :) 22:55:49 !lg * turns>200000 22:55:50 1719. Czerbonog the Invulnerable Farmer (L27 MiFi), worshipper of Zin, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2013-06-04 21:46:08, with 8691284 points after 203141 turns and 1d+0:34:51. 22:56:08 !learn move farming farmer 22:56:09 farming -> farmer[1/1]: "Farming" is added to the titles of games lasting longer than 200,000 turns by the IRC bots. 22:56:28 he also starts out with a book of summon small mammals ;p 22:56:30 !learn edit farmer s/Farming/Farmer/ 22:56:30 err 22:56:31 farmer[1/1]: "Farmer" is added to the titles of games lasting longer than 200,000 turns by the IRC bots. 22:56:32 !lg giantspikedclub won 22:56:32 1. giantspikedclub the Farming Dungeon Master (L27 MuCK), worshipper of Xom, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2013-01-15 00:51:22, with 2464055 points after 2151278 turns and 20:25:44. 22:56:38 spell of summon small mammals 22:56:40 samb: ^ 22:56:49 hmm 22:56:59 twb: running trunk, there are no priests. But LOs can't worship Beogh yet. 22:57:05 todo: Summon Large Mammal 22:57:20 fine 22:57:30 !learn move farmer farming 22:57:31 farmer -> farming[1/1]: "Farmer" is added to the titles of games lasting longer than 200,000 turns by the IRC bots. 22:57:36 rchandra: I must be a bit behind trunk, but it's a known thing so my work here is done 22:57:39 SamB: I think it adds Farmer *or* Farming as appropriate? 22:57:42 !learn edit farmer s/Farmer/Farming/ 22:57:43 I don't have a page labeled farmer[1] in my learndb. 22:57:46 Foo the Farming Bar 22:57:51 !learn edit farming s/Farmer/Farming/ 22:57:52 farming[1/1]: "Farming" is added to the titles of games lasting longer than 200,000 turns by the IRC bots. 22:58:23 !learn edit farming s/$/ Except sometimes it's "Farmer" at the end instead. 22:58:24 farming[1/1]: "Farming" is added to the titles of games lasting longer than 200,000 turns by the IRC bots. Except sometimes it's "Farmer" at the end instead. 22:58:28 Was testing with 0.13-a0-1319-ga350a8f 22:58:28 whereas Foo the Farming Invulnerable makes no sense so it says Invulnerable Farmer instead 22:58:39 !learn edit farming s/ / / 22:58:39 farming[1/1]: "Farming" is added to the titles of games lasting longer than 200,000 turns by the IRC bots. Except sometimes it's "Farmer" at the end instead. 22:58:45 !lg * turns>=200000 title=~Ignorant 22:58:46 2. KiloByte the Farming Ignorant (L27 HEAs), worshipper of Sif Muna, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-11-12 20:58:58, with 8849427 points after 203528 turns and 1d+2:08:06. 22:58:54 (todo: fix that particular case) 22:58:58 rchandra: sorry, I guess I've had too much GNUlade 22:59:00 ??Ignorant 22:59:01 I don't have a page labeled ignorant in my learndb. 22:59:03 !learn add Vehumet Will give you anything but spells of your school if you're an elementalist. 22:59:03 vehumet[4/4]: Will give you anything but spells of your school if you're an elementalist. 22:59:10 !learn del vehumet[4] 22:59:11 Deleted vehumet[4/4]: Will give you anything but spells of your school if you're an elementalist. 22:59:14 !learn add farmer see {farming} 22:59:15 farmer[1/1]: see {farming} 22:59:21 ??farmer 22:59:21 farming[1/1]: "Farming" is added to the titles of games lasting longer than 200,000 turns by the IRC bots. Except sometimes it's "Farmer" at the end instead. 22:59:36 -!- DarthXaos has quit [] 22:59:44 heh 22:59:53 !title ignorant 22:59:56 ignorant: Invocations (Sif Muna) 23:00:09 heh 23:00:24 Grunt: FIX IT NOW 23:00:39 I don't think I have access to the bot code :b 23:00:49 Grunt: is it really the bots that add it? 23:01:01 grunt: so will your spell summon from sheep through apis/hellephant ? 23:01:11 !lastlog henzell 23:01:41 rchandra: possibly not apis/hellephant, but the other Ys, yes : 23:01:43 :b 23:02:01 ??henzell 23:02:02 henzell[1/4]: Linley Henzell is the original creator of Crawl. "Henzell" is also the ##crawl bot. If you want the source for *this bot*, go here: http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell 23:02:08 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:02:26 Grunt: anyway you could fork that 23:03:26 <|amethyst> see commands/helper.py 23:03:32 <|amethyst> in particular, adjective_skills 23:03:54 <|amethyst> and adjective_end 23:04:12 !lg * turns>=200000 title=~Accurate 23:04:12 1. frankhovis the Deadly Accurate Farmer (L27 MiWr), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-08-31 16:59:31, with 1180296 points after 219292 turns and 3d+15:45:35. 23:04:29 -!- sym has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:34 !lg * turns>=200000 title=~Covert 23:04:34 No games for * (turns>=200000 title=~Covert). 23:04:37 :( 23:05:14 !lg * s=sk / turns>=200000 ?:N=0 23:05:17 28134 games for *: 0/843x Ranged Combat [0.00%], 0/1378x Darts [0.00%], 0/25913x Charms [0.00%] 23:05:54 -!- Arivia has quit [Quit: Arivia] 23:06:02 ranged combat skill, nice 23:08:14 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 23:09:09 -!- jbenedetto has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:13:40 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: after several regens I got my first "disconnect", but it's nothing to worry about 23:14:11 From what I saw, not only are they far rarer, but they mostly happen in much more obvious ways 23:14:19 Like, a band of plants blocking a larger segment 23:14:24 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: yeah, it always involves multiple plants 23:14:25 Which seems fine to happen on ocassion 23:14:35 -!- SaintWacko has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:14:35 Since it tends to be a lot more obvious where it is 23:14:41 <|amethyst> when I was first writing it I considered treating plants as I treated walls 23:14:50 <|amethyst> but decided against it 23:15:06 <|amethyst> since the goal isn't to prevent plants from disconnecting lair 23:15:55 <|amethyst> it's to prevent them from making annoying closets and pseudoclosets every damn time :) 23:15:58 <|amethyst> now if you get the message that you missed something, there's actually a chance you missed it 23:16:22 <|amethyst> s/it$/something/ 23:16:36 Yeah 23:16:42 You miss it. 23:16:45 (1learn add it) 23:17:02 !learn add it 23:17:02 Syntax is: !learn commands/learn/add.pl TERM TEXT or !learn commands/learn/add.pl TERM[n] TEXT 23:17:13 * SamB was wondering what Henzell would do if he typed that 23:18:03 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1444-gd9dfbbc: Don't repeatedly replace ruined squares. 10(24 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d9dfbbceb7ae 23:18:11 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 23:19:48 -!- Sabaki_|2 is now known as Sabaki 23:20:11 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:23:05 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Client Quit] 23:28:34 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:29:38 -!- metasyntactic is now known as kunwon1 23:32:32 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:27 -!- qoala has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:38:18 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 23:42:32 -!- qoala has joined ##crawl-dev 23:45:13 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 23:46:56 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:42 "You feel an oppressive heat on this level." 23:55:55 er, "about you" 23:56:05 is it really that oppressive for lava orcs? 23:56:29 probably not 23:56:46 invigorating? 23:57:04 <|amethyst> what about djinn? 23:57:07 comfortable? 23:57:09 how about dj? 23:57:12 heh 23:57:54 heh, and the only ways into this volcano were digging or crossing lava 23:58:14 I've had that one 23:59:06 -!- remyroy1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:59:24 very inviting for LO