00:00:08 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 00:05:15 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1689-gde95e64 (34) 00:09:08 Is anyone around who understands the inner workings of mapdef.cc ? 00:10:19 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 00:12:05 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0/20130104151925]] 00:15:22 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1684-gb13b9db 00:15:24 -!- iasov has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:33 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:17:51 <|amethyst> mumra: I wouldn't say "understand" entirely, but I've worked with the code before 00:17:51 |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 00:19:15 mumra, nobody understands it, just ask your question ;p 00:20:27 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:43 heh :) i'm using dgn.reuse_map to place the map in Lua. it has flags for vmirror, hmirror, rotate, but whatever these are set to the map seems to get rotated/flipped at random anyway 00:21:24 it calls vault_placement::draw_at(place) to actually draw the map (actually that's in dungeon.cc) 00:22:22 also the rotate flag is weird; it can be -1, 0 or 1; meaning 90 degree rotation clockwise or counterclockwise. no support for 180 degree rotation 00:22:46 but in fact reuse_map is only used by ziggurats as far as i can tell, which don't even use that rotate flag 00:23:37 an API that's only used in one place is bound to be weird 00:24:05 the map probably gets rotated/flipped randomly initially 00:24:05 basically i need to rotate the map to a specific orientation and prevent the level builder from any further rotating/flipping 00:24:14 hmm good point 00:24:53 the thing is if i add the no_rotate tag to the map then that outright stops map.rotate(dir) from working at all! 00:25:13 so it would be impossible to rotate even manually 00:26:54 Zaba: yes I see now, the map lines are flipped/rotated in _resolve_map in maps.cc 00:28:02 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 00:28:17 03Chris Honey 07* 0.12-a0-1690-g85fca06: Reveal teleport traps in multiple vaults. 10(30 hours ago, 4 files, 8+ 8-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=85fca068c8c6 00:28:52 |amethyst: guess who would like an entry in your mailmap :P 00:30:27 git.develz.org is still not updating, it seems :( 00:30:51 Napkin: indeed^ 00:31:04 -!- popbob has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:33:02 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:38:11 http://pastebin.com/WR78fgL5 00:38:53 It's not done yet 00:41:26 <|amethyst> %git master 00:41:26 03faze * 0.12-a0-1690-g85fca06: Reveal teleport traps in multiple vaults. 10(30 hours ago, 4 files, 8+ 8-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=85fca068c8c6 00:42:13 -!- Sizzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:23 -!- Sizzell has joined ##crawl-dev 00:43:20 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:43:46 sounds like if you were going to make a pirate ship it would make a better portal vault 00:44:09 considering how awkward that would be in-game 00:44:28 helsbecter: I put it into shoals for a reason 00:45:03 Zaba: thanks, solved it with that pointer (hackishly adding in the no_rotate etc. tags early on then removing them before i place the map) 00:45:15 eheh 00:46:02 is it going to be like a whole huge boat or something 00:46:06 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 00:47:27 my memory is failing me, does using chance() like abyss dummies do now really work? 00:47:30 does blade just have the one layout now? 00:47:57 I remember at some point it being generated like elf 00:48:03 Lightli: how about a whole portal? :P 00:48:03 I have a feeling it only gets called once and therefore doesn't do what was intended 00:49:23 helsbecter: yeah just the one, it's pretty lame 00:49:24 It's not supposed to be very big 00:49:36 fortunately we've got per-depth chances, so it can be fixed 00:49:40 I'm mostly in need of monsters to use 00:49:59 what you have here is already a quarter of the whole level 00:50:12 oh my 00:50:27 In that case, yeah it's big enough 00:50:38 Lightli: zombies fit quite well into pirate mythos 00:50:59 This is Shoals, not Crypt 00:51:27 it would be a cool vault for shoals if you stepped on a dock-looking thing and it hit a trigger to make a big ol' fog cloud and get some flying dutchman action 00:52:20 I want to make lair branch vaults 00:52:31 once I make enough overflows to submit 00:56:11 Anyways, off to sleep now. 00:56:15 -!- Lightli has quit [Quit: Seiba] 00:58:44 need awesome new room vaults for V soon, newnewvaults is largely done. 00:59:36 -!- hart has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:00:18 how about floor vault 01:00:36 is making new vaults for newvaults easy 01:00:47 floor vault? you mean a vault made of floor? 01:00:53 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 01:00:54 well you know door vault 01:00:57 imagine door vault 01:00:58 my impression was that it was confusing 01:01:01 helsbecter: yep, make any sized room and tag it with vaults_room 01:01:01 but without the doors 01:01:04 that's floor vault 01:01:06 -!- ZRN has quit [] 01:01:34 elliott: that sounds very original, yes as many of them as possible please 01:01:47 elliott: can you arrange the floor tiles in multiple different arrangements? 01:01:47 I knew you'd understand 01:01:54 haha 01:02:00 I will even rearrange the 8s and 9s! 01:02:21 elliott: i would like to see the .'s sorted# by size 01:02:23 vaults is so weird, vaults are the most creative part of the game but The Vaults are like the least 01:02:47 -!- rkd has quit [] 01:02:50 okay new vault idea 01:03:09 it's like floor vault but if you step within 20 squares of it walls pop up all around you and there's a down-hatch in the very middle of the monsters 01:03:20 er all around you as in all around the entire vault 01:03:35 helsbecter: newvaults made it incredibly difficult to add vaults (and especially layouts) so there has been zero new content since it came in; the ones it started with are a bit lacklustre 01:03:57 helsbecter: newnewvaults is a complete rewrite. the layout code was nearly 8000 lines of lua, my rewrite is less than 1000 (and does more) 01:04:13 ah 01:04:45 does newnewvaults resemble the current 5-level design more or the old 8-level one 01:04:52 mumra: joking aside I am very happy someone is devoting time to newvaults 01:04:52 and uhh. 01:05:27 st_ cleaned up a lot of the stuff that came in with it but the essential problem of nobody being able to add content to it seemed like it would doom the thing to me 01:05:58 what elliott said 01:06:03 also what features are even kosher for vaults other than metal walls and doors 01:06:28 vaults for V don't always need new gimmicky things or renamed crap 01:07:13 helsbecter: the level cut was independent of the layout change, i assume it will always be 5 levels 01:07:18 I see issues in 6ef48164 01:07:54 for one thing, I'm not sure interest_check does what the author intended. Also, since when is mini_float ever necessary for minivaults surrounded by floor. 01:08:01 Chris: yeah, some of those gimmicky vaults were some of my original test rooms that should never have made it in tbh, or if they did should have been extremely rare (like other gimmicky vaults) 01:08:44 <|amethyst> Zaba: if you weren't aware, that's HangedMan 01:08:49 -!- letmeon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:08:53 <|amethyst> Zaba: who is here often 01:09:52 elliott: also joking aside, i already have a routine that generates floor vaults of all different sizes. sorry if i just made you redundant 01:09:54 mumra: i'm not commenting on the resp. mantis issue to reduce the noise there, but still following along 01:11:28 helsbecter: the vaults can use any features; st_'s comments were directed at the fact that there are 2,000 vault rooms containing nothing but statues 01:11:39 mumra: best routine 01:11:42 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:11:47 Is this newnewvaults going to still look largely like current newvaults? In a general sense, I mean? 01:11:50 I willingly submit to this new perfect computer program 01:11:58 Aside from being much easier to work with, syntax-wise 01:12:31 helsbecter: everything in moderation basically. the important thing is that the rooms contain interesting challenges / layout with good levels of randomisation, so the layout never gets repetitive 01:12:55 well, okay, it may as well be that interest_check is working, but the mini_float is erroneous for many of those vaults 01:13:04 I have to go now, though 01:13:35 DracoOmega: Yes the layouts are basically the same. But I made some routines so it's really easy to design new ones. On my playthrough the "ring" layout showed up far too much 01:13:42 I do think people should try to basically follow st_'s rules for a while 01:13:45 03zaba 07* 0.12-a0-1691-g51dec9d: abyss.des: Use per-depth chances. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=51dec9dad28d 01:14:05 <|amethyst> !tell HangedMan Zaba was saying he thought mini_float was wrong for many of the vaults you added it to (e.g. minivaults surrounded by floor) 01:14:06 (which I didn't mind once but after a few playthroughs i can see it would get boring...) 01:14:06 |amethyst: OK, I'll let HangedMan know. 01:14:07 since it is a case of there is like 10-20x more gimmick than there should be and the scales won't tip otherwise 01:14:26 The current set hasn't seemed that gimicky to me, since the pruning 01:14:29 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: incredible ralph] 01:14:30 At least not the ones I've run into 01:14:31 elliott: yes definitely, the focus is on "standard" challenges 01:15:23 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:15:45 elliott: any gimmicky/unusual ones will have a very low weight - you only want to see something like that once every few playthroughs (like other gimmicky vaults in the rest of the game)# 01:15:46 so the ctrl-A toggle is not saved or restored? 01:15:57 that's kind of bad if it was off for some reason and you load that game again 01:17:21 ChrisOelmueller: that makes the nice invis infoleak not as useful :( 01:17:21 The other thing in newnewvaults is that standard vaults can now be placed again. There are big empty rooms that the dungeon builder can use, and any generally unused sections of the map 01:17:39 So existing portal/branch entries and other normal vaults will show up again 01:20:10 what's an average level of vaults going to look like? 01:20:53 is it going to be like V:$ with four quadrants filled in with stuff? or more like the city layout, or like newvaults 01:21:53 Initially, much like as current, but with slightly more open corridors and more open rooms. I think I'm throwing out rooms less than 5x5 01:22:33 Rooms can be any size now including rectangular so it won't be just loads of square boxes 01:23:59 But I'm adding some new layouts, one will be like V:$ but the four quadrants will contain smaller rooms ... one is like the ring layout but with a city in the middle 01:24:50 To add a new layout you just draw rectangles of floor space and let the layout code do the rest 01:25:38 I look forward to seeing it 01:25:41 It will burrow rooms into walls or place rooms in open areas 01:26:23 The biggest visual change is that some rooms have windows now :) 01:26:49 I like iron grates~ 01:28:21 I could randomly flip between grates and transparent stone. 01:28:46 grates are far easier to dispose of 01:29:27 They're not barring entry, just so you can see in before you open the door (or the monsters inside can see you) 01:29:28 I just think they're more dungeon-y. Glass looks weird. 01:29:48 "Vaults" implies intelligent construction 01:29:58 helsbecter: is this about tiles 01:30:09 heh 01:30:10 no, just in general it looks weird 01:30:20 It's not glass it's "transparent stone" ;) 01:30:26 mumra: do not use grates please 01:30:28 ever 01:30:55 grates are abusable with lots of attacks that go past them and are *not* intended as decoration 01:31:07 elliptic: would now be an appropriate time to ask for removal of that vault with a moth of wrath and worms 01:31:08 for instance, cloud spells can be targetted past grates 01:31:52 ChrisOelmueller: I forget exactly what the low-level tricks are for killing that moth for lots of xp 01:32:01 but yes that vault should have something done to it 01:32:15 well even if so, it could at least bloody use monsters that can actually go berserk...... 01:32:31 doesn't it have monsters that can go berserk? 01:32:35 The rats can! 01:32:39 (The bats too) 01:32:41 ah, the worms can't? 01:32:42 the worms can't 01:32:46 nice 01:32:47 which is what i am complaining about 01:32:49 why can't they? 01:32:55 <|amethyst> unintelligent 01:33:07 since when is intelligence a prerequisite to go berserk :P 01:33:23 they can't be pacified so I guess berserking is out too 01:33:34 worms do not have moods ;l 01:33:37 elliptic: btw you can portal projectile that moth 01:33:43 oh right, portal projectile 01:33:53 or use xom since scumming near it will reliably do *something* 01:34:08 since it is a red hot sun of tension 01:34:23 IMO grates are a bug... they have all the bad features of old glass 01:34:39 I think the vault should just be removed personally 01:34:43 Well, surely some of the places they are used make sense? 01:34:48 problems with it just keep coming up :P 01:34:57 DracoOmega: you mean flavorwise or what 01:34:59 DracoOmega: well only gimmick vaults use grates 01:35:20 maybe they should be like metal plants 01:35:31 Well, some of the stuff involving eyes or smiters behind grates make sense to me, I think 01:35:33 I do not object to grate flavor, I object to the awful gameplay of having walls that stop some attacks but not others and nobody knows exactly what they stop and aah 01:36:07 Don't they just stop projectiles, and nothing else? 01:36:31 why not just make them block all attacks? functionally then they're just "transparent metal" 01:36:38 well last I checked they stopped player reaching but not monster reaching 01:36:52 indeed 01:36:53 Okay, that seems a bit silly. I know they don't stop monster reaching, certainly 01:36:55 mumra: making them functionally the same as transparent rock would be fine 01:36:58 (I have nearly died that way) 01:37:20 Well, that DOES break stuff like the demonic rune eyes vault, among several other things 01:37:21 DracoOmega: there are vaults that use grates that rely on them not stopping monster reaching (because of reapers on the other side and such) 01:37:27 Yes 01:37:30 question why they need to be different from transparent rock then 01:37:31 <|amethyst> elliptic: so smite targetting becomes purely "can go through creatures"? 01:37:33 and there are also vaults that rely on them stopping player reaching 01:37:37 -!- agdgsdgsadgasdga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:37:40 and there are so many dumb things about new glass too that this is, well 01:37:42 |amethyst: that was the intention of the glass changes 01:37:59 but then people decided that it was a good idea to keep grates in for vaults 01:37:59 metal grates should prevent lightning bouncing like metal walls? 01:38:20 they aren't really the same material as metal walls 01:38:33 <|amethyst> faraday cage 01:38:35 wands of digging/disint work on grates, do not work on metal walls 01:38:56 Well, arguably this might be because there is only a tiny bit of metal in them 01:39:01 As opposed to a huge solid wall 01:39:06 Who knows how thick 01:39:17 <|amethyst> I thought according to the descs it's because grates are all rusty 01:39:39 I imagine them more like plants than glass 01:39:43 fr oklob grates 01:39:54 I would be very happy to make grates affect targetting in the same way of glass, but it breaks some (not very good IMO) vaults and thus people always resist this 01:42:12 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:44:46 it also breaks targetting 01:44:59 and especially breaks ta 01:45:17 or why on earth can i not order my termcasted bat to attack this thing 01:45:29 it just won't make sense, ever 01:46:26 I'm not aware of anything really broken with glass other than the ta thing 01:46:36 monsters smiting through it 01:46:49 they do? 01:46:54 I thought that got fixed sometime 01:46:58 <|amethyst> eyes 01:47:11 <|amethyst> I thought 01:47:13 people decided that eyes should go through them 01:47:38 perhaps it's that except for eyes on player side 01:47:49 personally I wouldn't mind eyes being blocked by glass 01:47:59 can claim the glass is tinted or something :P 01:48:43 just use the same logic that prevents otr from going through glass, whatever it is 01:49:11 does monster refrigeration still go through glass, then? 01:49:24 admit i didn't test that for a while 01:49:27 nobody knows 01:49:33 because monster refrigeration isn't really a thing 01:49:43 player refrig does not though 01:50:04 um fannar kiting 01:50:05 the best sport 01:50:17 <|amethyst> fannar vitrification 01:50:23 <|amethyst> ultimate combo 01:50:48 |amethyst: you are thinking on my level 01:50:55 Unless it was changed recently, monster refridge does go through walls 01:51:00 fannar (inner flame) 01:51:06 Glass, I mean 01:51:07 ugh 01:51:09 However, Fannar won't actually cast it if his target is on the other side 01:51:13 So you usually don't notice 01:51:18 yeah, i got this bat here for that purpose 01:51:31 I mentioned this a while back 01:51:42 okay so glass is bugged a lot 01:51:50 but at least we sort of know what it is supposed to do? 01:51:51 yeah it does 01:52:03 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0.1/20130116073211]] 01:52:24 (block absolutely everything except maybe eyes) 01:52:37 Well, I think it currently mostly does this 01:52:50 But the code for monster refridge is seperate from player refrige 01:52:57 it shouldn't block ta and it maybe wouldn't block eyes 01:52:58 (Possibly it doesn't need to be so seperate) 01:53:17 -!- bza has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:53:18 and i don't think grates should be a thing 01:53:50 -!- Roy_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:54:06 ally management is horrible enough already 01:54:21 Two of your 78 potions of cure mutation freeze and shatter! 01:54:23 poor ChrisOelmueller 01:54:29 I agree that glass blocking ta is ridiculous 01:54:30 and this doesn't only come up in pathological cases 01:54:48 elliott: should have floor-stashed them, apologies 01:55:07 the thing with class is that it is kind of hard to tell whether your path to something is "blocked by glass" 01:55:17 because ??? bresenham (??? crawl los in general) 01:55:19 *glass 01:55:36 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:10 well in the case i casted above the monster even had a clear path without any obstacle 01:58:11 !tell Grunt why does monster refrigeration go through glass? 01:58:11 ChrisOelmueller: OK, I'll let Grunt know. 01:58:48 I don't think there's a deliberate reason at play here 01:59:51 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:26 .??why 02:01:02 if only that wasn't ruined 02:02:34 -!- bkring has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:04:31 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 02:05:38 -!- purge_ has quit [Quit: .] 02:07:57 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 02:09:29 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:10:26 -!- Misder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:10:27 -!- Zifmia has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:13 ta shouldn't even respect LoS 02:12:26 why can i not tell my dudes to attack a guy behind a tree? 02:12:44 trees are hardcore 02:12:49 -!- sky___ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:14:22 -!- tophat has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:15:19 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 02:21:49 -!- doome has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:31:56 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:41:37 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 02:47:59 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:49:22 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:49:26 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:51:08 ChrisOelmueller: it got stuck fetching again. now switched to every 5 minutes... let's see 02:57:36 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:05:07 Can anyone suggest a random range function that tends towards lower values? 03:08:00 you can just map a uniform distribution to some other one 03:09:04 or you can do something like 1d2 + 1d3 + 1d4 + ... 03:10:00 The range is variable so it's tricky with dice 03:10:23 you could just use two dice 03:10:25 Are there distributions functions already in crawl? 03:10:28 a low one and a high ones 03:10:30 i dont know 03:11:39 -!- Gilihad has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:16:18 Hmm, I can probably mangle something together ... thanks 03:18:13 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:19:17 well min() is very good at tending towards lower values 03:20:08 you can do something like random2(random2(n)) or min(random2(n),random2(n)) 03:20:53 -!- crate_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:31:18 ChrisOelmueller: (n/2) /* smoothed random2(n) */ 03:31:41 Highly smoothed 03:31:48 Exceptionally smoothed 03:31:49 good 03:32:08 surely you meant Uncannily smoothed 03:33:05 smoothness optimal 03:37:44 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 03:40:57 great, yeah they should work 03:41:20 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:50:36 -!- archl has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0/20130107224849]] 03:51:25 -!- Sorbius has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:04:18 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:06:23 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:07:32 -!- codile has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 04:11:55 -!- the_glow has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:13:09 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:13:25 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 04:22:55 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 04:27:46 -!- Blade- has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:28:29 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:03 -!- stubblyhead has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:44:25 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:45:11 -!- scummos has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:23 -!- AJJJJ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:02:13 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:13:53 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:31:50 -!- domiryuu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:40:11 -!- johnthebear has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:53:27 elliptic: I'd make grates equivalent to either glass or unpassable lava, instead of current state 05:53:53 ie, all the way either towards not letting any attacks through, or letting all of them 06:03:51 kilobyte: hi 06:04:05 is it "make DEBUG=y" for a debug build? 06:04:45 an overly large number of layouts i'm generating are failing with no error displaying (but occasionally even crashing crawl) and i can't figure out why 06:06:02 if they're identical to glass, why would they exist? 06:06:17 if they're almost-lava it makes sense I guess, seems kind of niche though 06:16:49 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 06:18:41 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:18:41 -!- Frosteey has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:19:29 mumra: "make debug", there are other flags 06:19:36 (and yeah, it's a mess) 06:20:18 our makefile is a big pile of junk, especially its abuse of targets as flag specifiers 06:20:46 ah ok, it rebuilt everything so i thought it was right :) but then no debug spam ... 06:21:00 so you need to "make debug test" instead of "make test" or it will do a rebuild (and regular builds are incapable of running tests!) 06:23:45 -!- Zifmia has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:23:57 -!- Sorbius has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:24:22 :) nice 06:25:06 same for having to pass all flags every time (including, say, "make install") 06:31:34 i'm getting a VETO: Isolate areas with no stairs. Is there any easy way to see what map was generated, it might help me figure out some problems i'm having? 06:46:27 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 06:59:02 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 07:08:21 -!- vogonpoet has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:12:53 -!- Grildrak has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:20:24 -!- codile has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 07:21:46 AHHHHH .... it's all about the transparent tag, isn't it? 07:22:52 it's a bad thing vaults don't default to transparent as it's the right thing for 99% of them 07:24:48 Zaba knows more; if I recall correctly the only reason to not flip it right now (with a review of vaults as some need to be opaque) is that potential problems with mistagged opaque vaults are smaller than those with transparent ones 07:24:52 the error started happening since i implemented rooms connected to other rooms. for the vaults at least i'll hardwire everything with transparent since it should be 100% of the time 07:25:15 ie, you get a bogus veto rather than an impassable route 07:25:52 that's correct 07:28:15 opaque-by-default is paranoia, explicit opaqueness would require vault makers to use it responsibly, and somebody to review all vaults that aren't tagged transparent at the moment 07:29:07 the thing is, mistagging something with transparent can still produce a broken layout ... there is a potential problem either way 07:29:43 -!- Fros is now known as Frosteey 07:30:45 when a vault is transparent, its actual terrain is checked for passability 07:32:04 so it'd need to be terrain-passable, but somehow not *really* passable, for that to be a problem 07:32:12 oh i see ... i think i might have seen broken areas *within* a vault though? 07:34:08 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:36:13 well ... it solves my problem anyway, at least there was nothing wrong with my layout code 07:36:56 newnewvaults are nearly done, the main thing left is the new way of handling stairs 07:37:44 the layouts are looking pretty nice, a lot more random than newvaults, less neat and predictable, and a lot more openness 07:37:51 I personally think just placing stairs somewhere randomly like "normal" layouts would work fine (and be better than newvaults) if you don't have fancy plans, FWIW 07:38:00 Zaba: is that even a real concern? Cloud generators and lua traps are the only reasons for a vault to become impassable I can think of from the top of my head. 07:39:57 elliott: that will happen anyway if vault rooms don't place stairs, but the idea is that most or all room vaults can set a stair position but only six will be used level-wide (and some will be turned into hatches). st_ specifically wanted that V:4 should have all stairs in rooms. 07:40:10 kilobyte, yeah, I think those are pretty much the only problematic cases 07:40:39 basically anything that shouldn't be the only way through the level 07:41:05 keeping the stairs to V:$ out of corridors seems fine 07:41:05 elliott: so this nicely avoids having all the tags and vault duplication for stairs_up, stairs_down etc. 07:42:08 I think st_'s real concern was just not to chokepoint the stairs to V:$ 07:42:15 which is a very major issue with current vaults 07:42:20 can't speak for him, though 07:43:33 elliott: that could actually be an argument for keeping them out of subvault rooms, and only placing them in empty rooms or corridors/open areas 07:44:39 (also ... i'm thinking this layout is massively flexible and could be used for other purposes even without subvaults, e.g. more interesting city levels for dis) 07:45:07 but i'll wait til people have seen it to receive comment on that ;) 07:46:45 happy about anything that makes hell layouts more interesting 07:46:56 btw how about delve for tar :o 07:48:31 delve for zot:5 07:48:51 mumra: IMO just putting stairs in "plain" locations is the safe, conservative choice 07:48:57 elliott: also on what i said about stairs, corridors will now be much wider; 4 or 5 should be a usual amount, 3 would be an absolute minimum on the minority of occasions 07:49:09 maybe more interesting stair arrangements could be good, but right now the big problem is that the stairs sometimes give you ridiculous things like easy V:$ stairdancing 07:49:21 but this is just how I see it 07:49:29 mumra: oh, I like that 07:49:55 I've whined about how newvaults seems more cramped (more like a typical D level than what I imagine vaults as) 07:50:36 elliott: there are very rarely chokepoints generated on city-style levels when two boxes generate near to each other, other than that the only 1-wide corridors would be if they're in subvaults 07:51:45 right 07:52:26 i think the safest option for V:4 is to put stairs in the empty rooms and/or use depth to make sure any subvault stair rooms with potential chokepoints are only on V:1-3 07:52:58 I could see there being specially-designed downstair vaults for V:5, personally 07:53:11 -!- Vizer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:53:20 maybe it would take some of the impact away from the ambush itself, dunno 07:54:23 hmm, nah - fighting into a room is completely different to getting ambushed 07:54:53 although there could be mini-ambushes all the way down thru V if a lot of the upstairs are generated in rooms too 07:55:11 but that happens all the way through the game really 07:55:45 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:55:54 by specially designed, I don't really mean with monsters 07:56:08 just laid out so it looks like something Important and to avoid there being any easy corridors around the stairs 07:56:20 it could just be an empty room with the same configuration of stairs as V:$ 07:56:41 that sounds nice 07:56:47 especially always centred in the middle of V:4 08:00:13 oh hi st_ 08:00:25 yo 08:08:17 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:08:26 -!- Sobieck has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:17:54 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Quit: bye] 08:22:38 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:23:35 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:24:37 st_: presumably you saw the previous comments; i have some optimisation to do and there's something slightly buggy still going on, but the layouts are looking great and it's 95% there ... also far easier to tweak after this (e.g. things like corridor widths and room sizes) 08:25:32 and it's basically just the one vaults_room tag now 08:26:13 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 08:26:22 yeah, sounds cool. I've been preoccupied playing poschengband (dont ask) so I haven't got around to any of that vault work 08:26:38 unless you want to restrict doors to specific sides, which is just vaults_orient_n, vaults_orient_e, etc. 08:28:47 well no worries at this point, wait until i've reintegrated all the original vaults and you can see how it looks, it's really easy to modify everything now so if there is any further feedback it should be simple to tune 08:36:51 -!- voker57_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:48 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:55:59 -!- soundlst has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:57:01 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:58:10 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16:09 -!- frogbotherer has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16:49 !messages 09:16:49 (1/2) edlothiol said (1w 5d 21h 6m 1s ago): your makefile fix fixed my build; the game still crashes though (android 4.2) 09:16:58 !messages 09:16:58 (1/1) edlothiol said (1d 5h 48m 47s ago): is there a way to compile android crawl with debug info? I'm trying to debug the crash and even managed to run ndk-gdb, but without debug info it's not very helpful 09:17:24 kilobyte about? 09:19:18 -!- Soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:19:43 -!- ark__ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:34 -!- Dixbert_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23:50 http://pastebin.com/WR78fgL5 09:23:56 Need ideas for monsters in there 09:24:21 -!- Dixbert has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:24:32 frogbotherer: meow? 09:24:32 kilobyte: letting all attacks through sounds fine also, yeah. they'd still need to be used with a little care and not just thrown in everywhere, of course 09:25:02 i'm trying to understand the sighup_save_and_exit() changes, and thought i'd ask rather than reverse-engineer :) 09:25:25 on android, i was using it so that when you receive a phone call whilst playing, it HUPs the app and closes everything cleanly 09:25:53 HUPping would be a good idea, yes 09:25:54 what you're *supposed* to do is save cleanly, and hang about in the background, and then restore /all/ the GL state on resume 09:26:00 saving it right then is not 09:26:17 why would you need to save, though? 09:26:22 oh ok, so i can stick with sighup_save_and_exit())? 09:26:37 because you can receive a phone call at any time at all during the game 09:26:38 I guess you try to suspend, not quit, right? 09:27:07 that's what you're supposed to do (suspend then resume), it's just very complicated because all the GL state gets reset and you need to reload textures 09:27:21 when i did the port originally, i took the easy option and raised a HUP signal instead 09:27:42 but some of those recent commits of yours broke it by taking signal handling out for local tiles builds 09:27:44 frogbotherer: no, sighup_save_and_exit() will save the game right now, even if the game is in an inconsistent state, resulting in corruption 09:27:49 ah ok 09:28:01 so i want to trap the HUP, save cleanly, then exit() ? 09:28:07 HUP in tiles did call sighup_save_and_exit() 09:28:17 yeah, i was just reusing that code 09:28:30 because i was being lazy and not trying to understand it :D 09:28:38 no, you want to let it continue until a legal place like input() 09:29:18 urgh; what i get is a callback method that can do anything it wants, that will be called at any point during the app's lifecycle 09:29:45 does HUP mean something else on android? Because on regular UNIX, it's called when a controlling terminal (but not an X window) is closed, which is supposed to do nothing for tile games. 09:30:02 no no, i was reusing an existing mechanism to close the game cleanly 09:30:31 frogbotherer: does it work like the shutdown/break/close handler on Windows? It's actually nicer than UNIX signals, as it creates a new thread for the delivery. 09:30:36 and HUP was analogous in my mind, because someone can close a terminal at any point (plug pulling; ~.; what-have-you) 09:31:06 oh quite possibly; i'm not really sure :O 09:31:10 right, so the confusion came from closing a terminal vs closing a GUI window 09:32:10 oh ok; no, like i said: i was taking a short-cut to make something that worked straight-away. now i want it to work "properly", alongside the changes you're making 09:32:29 but lemme ask again: is that just during a phone call? 09:33:30 ah sorry, didn't notice what you said at :27 09:33:39 if you press the home button, or a call comes in, whatever foreground app you're using gets sent to the background 09:33:59 once it's in the background, it can subsequently be closed by the O/S at any point in the future 09:34:26 *one day* i'll try to get all the code together to make that work properly :D 09:34:37 is the actual close calling regular shutdown? 09:34:46 (like closing the SDL window, etc)? 09:36:12 at the moment, all the callback does is "raise(SIGHUP);" 09:36:29 and then that causes sighup_save_and_exit() to do whatever that does 09:37:04 which works only on console and webtiles currently 09:37:16 (and even there, in a broken way) 09:37:51 I see a solution, though 09:38:14 Delcan the Changer (L7 SETm) ASSERT(item.is_valid(iinfo)) in 'tags.cc' at line 2682 failed on turn 7117. (D:7) 09:38:25 Delcan the Changer (L7 SETm) ASSERT(item.is_valid(iinfo)) in 'tags.cc' at line 2682 failed on turn 7117. (D:7) 09:38:45 let's set crawl_state.seen_hups then ensure whatever the process is doing gets EINTR 09:39:07 and make input functions return immediately then 09:39:26 Delcan the Changer (L7 SETm) ASSERT(item.is_valid(iinfo)) in 'tags.cc' at line 2682 failed on turn 7117. (D:7) 09:40:03 !lm * crash -log 09:40:03 4273. Delcan, XL7 SETm, T:7117 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Delcan/crash-Delcan-20130119-153926.txt 09:40:41 console/webtiles call fclose(stdin) which causes attempts to read from the console to fail but doesn't affect local tiles 09:41:19 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 09:41:41 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:42:07 i shouldn't imagine android uses STDIN for anything, yep 09:44:43 fclose(stdin) also invalidates the stream (we don't get a crash only because ncurses don't use FILE streams), uses malloc() (actually free()) from a signal handler or your callback, and leaves the file descriptor unassigned which might potentially make it reused (should be safe as Crawl AFAIK never opens a file without closing it in the same function after initialization 09:48:55 oh hang on! we also get an SDL_ACTIVEEVENT sent with a flag set (SDL_APPACTIVE) - maybe i can use that instead; treat it like an SDL_QUIT event? 09:48:56 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:39 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:58 is SDL_QUIT akin to WM_CLOSE or WM_QUIT? (sorry for Windows-speak) 09:50:18 yeah, SDL_QUIT is translated to WM_QUIT 09:50:28 I mean, does it notify the window has closed, or requests a complete quit? 09:51:03 hey I'm making a package for this game and don't know what to call it: dcss, stone-soup, crawl? 09:51:41 mspo: Debian uses "crawl" 09:52:02 presumably the latter, but i'm not really an SDL expert.docs say "An SDL_QUIT event is generated when the user tries to close the application window" 09:53:45 wtf, we use WM_* as our own enums :p 09:53:57 arch uses stone-soup 09:54:22 (causing conflicts with Windows, and confusing those who know the win32 API) 09:54:43 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:55:32 kilobyte: right now I have it named "dcss-stone_soup" 09:55:49 maybe crawl-stone-soup 09:55:53 well that sounds like a bad combination :) 09:56:34 "crawl" is already taken in pkgrc 09:56:56 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 09:57:50 "dcss" or "stone-soup" seem much better than those two 09:58:06 well the binary is named "crawl" 09:58:31 that might partially relate to nobody caring about what your system provides as "crawl" if it's not dcss 09:58:55 right! i think the correct thing to do short-term is to trap WM_ACTIVEEVENT (gain=0) in tilesdl.cc and treat it the same as WM_QUIT; i.e. save_game() and exit() 09:59:04 ChrisOelmueller: it could 10:00:06 ChrisOelmueller, currently I'm working on merging handling of player ans monster area LOS spells like refrigeration. 10:00:14 ...so if there are inconsistencies like that, they'll go away soon. 10:00:25 ah, great 10:00:25 mspo: dungeon-crawl is one option 10:00:38 long-term i can hook WM_ACTIVEEVENT (gain=1) into reloading the textures and GL state, and take the exit() bit out 10:00:52 It's almost done, actually; I'm mainly considering what to do with Drain Life (which is a monster spell but a player deity ability). 10:01:33 Grunt: they're all spells for monsters 10:01:47 kilobyte: of course they are. 10:02:50 someone suggested having a flag describing the type of spell (arcane, priestly, demonic, physiological), but that's per caster:spell or at least per caster rather than per spell 10:03:53 -!- Ryak has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:07:09 As it stands, I'm mainly wondering if the monster drain life handling should be merged into the same code path as the rest of the handlers (ideally yes, since it has a lot of the same code), and, if so, if the player handling thereof should also be moved there despite being a divine ability instead of a spell. 10:12:05 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:12:23 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:12:43 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:22 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:38 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:15:38 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 10:17:44 elliott: for the binary name? 10:20:31 package name 10:23:09 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 10:26:27 elliptic: I have a lead on the vault mangling bug. 10:26:35 Fix will probably be present soon. 10:26:40 great :) 10:26:56 Grunt: <3 10:29:40 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:32:51 ...and done! 10:34:27 03Grunt 07* 0.12-a0-1692-g991b1e0: Don't let layout_chaotic_city mangle vaults. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 14+ 9-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=991b1e00d6b6 10:34:29 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:34:55 worst fix, beautiful open vaults ruined :( 10:36:43 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:44:36 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:48:04 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:49:39 03frogbotherer 07* 0.12-a0-1693-g7900a79: changed autodetection of layout to use physical screen dimensions for android 10(9 days ago, 3 files, 22+ 13-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7900a79b50af 10:49:39 03frogbotherer 07* 0.12-a0-1694-gfd1dd18: updated sdl-android (API call for physical screen size) 10(9 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fd1dd18e5c8a 10:49:39 03frogbotherer 07* 0.12-a0-1695-gb72183a: fixed compilation bug under Android 10(6 days ago, 1 file, 18+ 18-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b72183a640ca 10:49:39 03frogbotherer 07* 0.12-a0-1696-g50c2852: fixed issue with crawl not closing when sent to background in Android 10(6 days ago, 1 file, 16+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=50c2852ae771 10:49:39 03frogbotherer 07* 0.12-a0-1697-g8372df5: updated sdl-android (h/w keys now work again) 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8372df57dd17 10:49:39 03frogbotherer 07* 0.12-a0-1698-g3ad13c4: improved laggy input on android by ignoring custom events (possibly emulator-specific?) 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3ad13c440b55 10:49:39 03frogbotherer 07* 0.12-a0-1699-g49d2b5b: improved background and restore routines for Android; now traps WM_ACTIVEEVENT instead of using callbacks 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 32+ 16-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=49d2b5b12039 10:50:15 -!- moxian has left ##crawl-dev 10:51:56 -!- bmfx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:54:51 android builds will work again now \o/ 10:55:15 time to break them again 10:59:49 actually i was thinking of coding up some [non-android-specific] changes to weapon/armour descriptions, so it gives you a little bit more of a clue about your effectiveness with them 11:01:38 -!- Roy____ has quit [Client Quit] 11:02:07 just a couple of sentences like "you shouldn't use this til your str is higher" or "this isn't as effective as your current weapon" 11:02:41 (primarily because i can't be bothered to find the wiki pages about GDR and mindelay, but always feel like i'm missing out somehow) 11:05:08 you do already get a message when putting on armour with too low strength, that information could also go on the description somewhere maybe 11:05:08 MarvinPA: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 11:05:46 i wouldn't bother putting stuff about gdr up there though, it's really not important or helpful information 11:15:31 determining whether "this isn't as effective as your current weapon" is not particularly feasible 11:17:47 -!- Cirdan_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:18:45 -!- Jayrays has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:18:46 nago (L27 SEMo) ASSERT(!invalid_monster_index(mg.foe) || mg.foe == MHITYOU || mg.foe == MHITNOT) in 'mon-place.cc' at line 1680 failed. (Slime:6) 11:20:08 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:24:10 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:34:42 !lm nago type=crash -log 11:34:47 11. nago, XL27 SEMo, T:100503 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.11/nago/crash-nago-20130119-171844.txt 11:35:25 WTF, cdo webtiles are still not updated after the very first version installed 11:36:21 -!- archl has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0/20130107224849]] 11:38:23 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:41:13 -!- Danei has quit [] 11:42:52 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 11:49:11 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:04 -!- fourfall has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:47 -!- freefall has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:59 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:55:28 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:25 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:05:27 -!- Zifmia has quit [] 12:11:08 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:25 -!- as has quit [Client Quit] 12:14:57 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:15:10 -!- rast- is now known as rast 12:16:15 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:23 can we do something to grey rats 12:17:28 they are dumb and boring 12:17:53 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:17:53 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:18:11 make them pink elephants! 12:18:15 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:18:46 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19:22 pink elephant (13Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 51-82 | AC/EV: 8/2 | Dam: 2007(trample), 5 | Res: 06magic(60), 12drown | XP: 431 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 12:19:22 %??elephant col:lightmagenta name:pink n_adj 12:19:56 they're part of the rat progression, so I guess it's more a question of being in a wrong part of the curve rather than being problematic by themselves 12:20:20 well, if they had any sort of distinguishing feature 12:20:41 but they're basically normal rats with slightly more hp 12:21:13 I mean, monsters which have just stats and xp are boring, but groups like this can be considered to be one monster with progression 12:21:46 like, the 12 types of ugly creatures count as 1-2 monsters rather than 12 12:21:58 they also have dumb corpses 12:22:03 v.important if you want to annoy players 12:22:28 ontoclasm: don't grey rats only generate in vaults and sewers nowadays? 12:22:32 yes 12:22:32 they aren't supposed to be interesting 12:22:58 I'm not going to fight for grey rat existence, but they're not totally pointless as they fill a gap between pushover on D:1 plain rats, and capable of mobbing folks on Lair:1 green rats 12:23:16 so I'd consider making them a big harder first 12:24:43 (obviously, no one says you can't replace them with something else, it's just that they can make some vaults look better by being all rats) 12:25:37 Lua error in Vaults 1 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6550) by hhkb 12:26:14 grey rats were meant to be replaced by porcupines i thought, not that porcupines are much good either 12:26:20 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:26:28 but they just weren't removed entirely because they were in so many sewers and things iirc 12:27:23 definitely wouldn't want to fight porcupines in sewer 12:27:31 at least not where current grey rats are 12:27:38 grey rat (15r) | Spd: 12 | HD: 1 | HP: 3-9 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 5 | Res: 06magic(4) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 4 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 12:27:38 %??grey rat 12:27:41 porcupine (02r) | Spd: 12 | HD: 2 | HP: 6-18 | AC/EV: 2/12 08(spiny) | Dam: 7 | Res: 06magic(8) | XP: 32 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 12:27:41 %??porcupine 12:27:53 green rat (09r) | Spd: 10 | HD: 2 | HP: 6-16 | AC/EV: 5/11 | Dam: 10 | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 13 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 12:27:53 %??green rat 12:29:04 orange rat (04r) | Spd: 12 | HD: 3 | HP: 9-24 | AC/EV: 7/10 | Dam: 2013(drain) | evil | Res: 06magic(12) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 34 | Sz: little | Int: animal. 12:29:04 %??orange rat 12:29:21 @??rat 12:29:21 rat (07r) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Dam: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 12:29:24 (why is xp like it is) 12:30:39 03Grunt 07* 0.12-a0-1700-g5a6c22f: Remove Lua references to removed miniwizlab Vaults vaults (#6550). 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 33+ 33-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5a6c22f98205 12:31:07 man i guess i'm just not supposed to win today 12:32:02 s/today/ever/ 12:32:59 also what's up with this speed 10/12 thing 12:33:32 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:37:58 -!- ajikeshi has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:10 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:42:44 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:47:55 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:56 -!- rast- is now known as rast 12:47:58 -!- codile has 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[Remote host closed the connection] 13:40:09 -!- frogbotherer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:42:26 -!- blabber has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:47:26 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 13:55:14 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:01:01 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:01:18 -!- stubblyhead has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:04:28 -!- GON_again has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:05:12 -!- SamB_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:05:40 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13:23 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:13:32 -!- Fhqwhgads_ is now known as Fhqwhgads 14:13:35 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 14:19:35 -!- GON_again has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:24:41 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:21 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 14:34:46 -!- TEMPTROG has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:38:30 -!- ophanim has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:38:33 -!- ophanim1 is now known as ophanim 14:42:10 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:11 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:42:15 -!- Guest62734 is now known as SwissStopwatch 14:44:02 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:45:03 -!- Sobieck has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:45:31 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:45:32 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 14:56:21 -!- y2s82 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:59:27 -!- dtsund has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:47 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:03:07 -!- neunon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:14 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:19 Lua error: /crawl-master/crawl-git-de95e648d8/data/dat/des/builder/layout_vaults.des:7663: No vault found for tag 'vaults_room_10_spin_crystal' 15:15:16 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:15:21 -!- Fhqwhgads_ is now known as Fhqwhgads 15:30:19 -!- Sobieck has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:32:47 -!- ZenArcade has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:42 http://pastebin.com/WR78fgL5 15:33:51 How does it look? 15:35:34 don't use col:darkgrey, darkgrey should just be out of los stuff 15:35:43 oh 15:36:10 What's a good color then? 15:36:29 anything not darkgrey 15:38:07 personally i'm not a fan of redefined monsters in general and this doesn't seem like a great use of them, seems a bit boring for a guarded unrand 15:38:10 also no need for a runed door there, it doesn't need to stop autoexplore 15:38:24 since it's behind the rest of the vault 15:40:50 ok 15:41:03 What are some alternatives for the pirates? 15:42:21 well the flavour of the cutlass is that it was lost to a kraken attack 15:42:49 so having it held by a captain seems wrong anyway, could have it in a wreck maybe 15:46:00 -!- codile_ has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 15:46:30 ...Maybe have it get guarded by a kraken? 15:47:18 if you can figure out a layout that forces you to fight past the kraken that could be good, yeah 15:47:22 -!- Twinge has quit [] 15:47:51 Although then again, if you can kill a kraken, you probably don't need the cutlass 15:49:53 I hardly think that's tur 15:49:55 true* 15:50:15 -!- alefury has quit [] 15:53:00 -!- Mindiell has quit [Quit: Quitte] 15:53:36 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:53:42 -!- Walker_Z is now known as WalkerBoh 15:58:20 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:47 isn't there already a shoals vault that forces you to kill a kraken to get loot 16:00:29 -!- ZenArcade has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0/20120830123745]] 16:01:12 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:08 -!- Morphy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:03:29 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:16:15 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:11 -!- letmeon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:20:16 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:20:33 -!- Poncheis has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:21:00 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:21:23 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:22:01 -!- geekosaur has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 16:22:56 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 16:23:07 -!- shachaf has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:23:30 -!- mrwooste1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:23:36 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 16:23:50 -!- mrwooster has joined ##crawl-dev 16:24:47 -!- Dixbert_ is now known as Dixbert 16:25:36 "Zaba was saying he thought mini_float was wrong for many of the vaults you added it to (e.g. minivaults surrounded by floor)" 16:25:40 oh? 16:25:47 reading logs 16:29:30 -!- ophanim has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:29:34 -!- ophanim1 is now known as ophanim 16:32:23 was mostly going by an evilmike suggestion a while back to presumably make vaults potentially connect in more ways with floors? but it's probably quite redundant with transparent tagging 16:35:09 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 16:35:23 hi 16:36:28 -!- Elkan has quit [Quit: Quitte] 16:37:16 evening 16:38:23 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:38:29 at any rate the main mpetus of that patch was the extra and decor tagging, I could do a thorough examination of the few tags that could legitmately need opaque (liquids as the primary offender, right?) and remove bad mini_float stuff (although I'd like to hear what's bad about spamming it) 16:40:09 -!- ophanim is now known as cookanim 16:40:57 There's no harm with redundant mini_float, but it does mean the builder will pick a random exit point and try to connect it 16:41:21 Actually multiple random exit points if applicable 16:41:36 -!- mamga has quit [Client Quit] 16:43:29 it'd help if there weren't a bunch of layouts that take @s and make tiny bad-looking boring corridors straight from the @s to the rest of the level 16:43:39 -!- frogbotherer has joined ##crawl-dev 16:44:17 spotty, delve, twisted_cavern, and cross can barely have vaults without facing that a ton 16:44:51 Is this related to the mini_float question? 16:44:56 yes 16:45:08 What is the relationship? 16:45:19 -!- justinius has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:26 I don't see much bad with multiple random exit points except when it's badly recieved by layout generators 16:45:56 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:46:06 I believe Zaba's question was whether those minivaults surrounded by floor need exit points to be connected to the level 16:46:19 ...oh 16:46:25 well, no, I guess 16:46:31 Because minivaults are guaranteed to be placed overlapping floor squares 16:47:45 there are overlapping floor squares in 16:48:00 well, I'll get a few maps to show how I didn't know that 16:48:22 -!- Sobieck has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:49:10 delve and related layouts should override join the dots to make exits look natural 16:49:21 Particularly for delve I believe it would be easy to do 16:49:24 I haven't looked at the others 16:50:23 Customizable exit strategy would be nice in general 16:50:45 The vault should be able to ask for rectangular passageways if it's a building-like thing that wants to look very manufactured 16:53:16 as a side note, twisted_cavern still has a terrifying tiles glitch 16:54:48 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:26 http://pastie.org/pastes/5730685/text 17:04:45 ... 17:04:48 Terrifying tiles glitch? 17:04:51 a level inspired by crawlt 17:05:08 yes, the orc and spider levels are technically using standard vaults 17:05:34 dracoomega: the one where the defined twisted cavern green crystal wall tile will also become the tile for parts of floor in vaults 17:05:52 I have never personally encountered that 17:06:02 Though I do think the green crystal tile used in that level is really, really odd looking 17:06:05 Compared to everything else 17:06:29 I mean, I've seen it a bunch and it never quite stops feeling a little bizzare 17:06:51 I like the tile in and of itself and don't play tiles enough to find it grating 17:07:00 dislike the rock for said layouts quite a ways more 17:07:08 The rock looks fine to me 17:07:08 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:07:14 I mean, it looks like the rock used elsewhere 17:07:31 that rock tile is used nowhere besides abyss and I think bazaars 17:07:33 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:07:51 Well, the stuff in orc is basically that, but yellow? 17:07:54 -!- Namey has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:08:10 oh right 17:08:29 And Lair as well 17:08:57 And the Spider one is similar. And volcanos... 17:08:57 bleh, I think I need to up the weights on corridor-like vaults to get a good example of bigger_room looking bad instead of just removing the dummies temporarily 17:09:11 -!- codile has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 17:09:14 volcanos are made of red cheese 17:09:17 But the green crystal walls in that layout look so different than normal green crystal that the first time I saw them, I thought it was some sort of bug 17:09:43 I wouldn't say they 'grate' on me, but they do still look out of place (in my personal opinion) 17:09:58 clearly just make all wall tiles in that style 17:10:31 I'm actually unsure why it doesn't use the normal tile 17:10:48 Since, as far as I can recall, green crystal uses the same tile EVERYWHERE ELSE but that one layout that shows up once 17:11:05 the old normal tile looked horrible, which is a good enough reason for me 17:11:27 Well, I thought it was fine. But it's been changed anyway, so that's not really an excuse 17:12:49 http://pastie.org/pastes/5730726/text 17:13:13 sometimes I think it was not the best of decisions to make all vaults apply for all layouts 17:13:42 Isn't there some way to be selective there? 17:13:58 I seem to recall that the gnoll serial vault only shows up in certain layouts? 17:14:11 you can place vaults on certain layouts but there are weird bugs around specifying certain amounts 17:14:30 and there's no excluding vaults from layouts instead of including them 17:14:48 What sort of bugs? 17:15:02 as in it just doesn't place at all if you specify too many 17:16:43 -!- Morphy__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:17:02 -!- purge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:18:40 -!- syllogism has quit [] 17:19:32 If you specify too many places where it can show up, you mean? 17:19:42 yes 17:19:55 (too many is like six or something) 17:20:55 -!- hayenne has quit [Quit: There is no dark side of the moon really. As a matter of fact it's all dark. The only thing that makes it look light is the sun.] 17:21:45 So using too many layout_X prevents the vault from being used at all? 17:21:57 Or being used on a layout matching one of the layout_X 17:22:08 former, I think 17:22:24 it's been a while since I've done anything that required specific layouts 17:23:21 in source example of encountering this: http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/serial/column_ruins.des;hb=HEAD#l90 17:27:23 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:29 chaotic city requires layout_city to match 17:29:05 Similarly, forbidden_donut requires layout_open 17:29:14 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 17:29:41 the commented out tags have both cities! 17:29:57 why are forbidden donut and open linked like that though 17:30:25 I think because they're intended to be open layouts 17:30:31 So they declare layout_type "open" 17:30:38 And that's the tag you need 17:30:45 chaotic-city layout_type is "city" 17:30:59 So you need layout_city if you want to match it (or skip layout_ tag altogether) 17:31:24 I think the key there was that you initially didn't have layout_open 17:31:26 -!- ToastyP has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:33:47 s|you|infiniplex| 17:34:34 Whoever, the "you" was not intended to be accusative :) 17:34:35 -!- Rebthor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:34:51 heh 17:38:53 -!- Liams123 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:43:59 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 17:51:17 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:06:59 -!- Zifmia has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:00 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:20:34 -!- dspencer has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:22:56 -!- letmeon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:26:15 -!- purge_ has quit [Quit: .] 18:38:25 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:38:41 -!- bmfx has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:32 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:40:37 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:41:27 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:31 -!- SurpriseTRex_ has quit [Quit: SurpriseTRex_] 18:44:53 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0.1/20130116073211]] 18:45:39 -!- ZenArcade has joined ##crawl-dev 18:46:11 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:50:06 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 18:55:44 -!- ZenArcade has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0/20120830123745]] 19:01:41 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:17 -!- Pthing has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:23 -!- dspencer has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:13:03 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:19:35 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:24:55 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:30:19 -!- letmeon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:30:45 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:21 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 19:35:58 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:41:56 -!- ToastyP has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:44:50 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 19:44:58 !tell kilobyte how'd it go? 19:44:58 bh: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 19:44:59 bh: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 19:45:02 er 19:45:03 oops. 19:45:08 !messages 19:45:09 (1/1) HangedMan said (3d 1h 14m 44s ago): sorry, got caught up in work on other stuff 19:45:18 msg tell... what's the difference 19:45:22 !tell kilobyte ignore that. 19:45:23 bh: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 19:45:42 by work on other stuff I mean a bunch of abyss vaults 19:45:54 -!- mspo has left ##crawl-dev 19:46:14 mhmm 19:46:36 very important to have abyss vaults when abyss:5 now spams them 19:47:03 how spammy is it? 19:47:32 well it's from 90% dummy to 50% dummy as an attempt to help with depth meaning more 19:47:35 so a bunch 19:50:45 can lucy wrath make tentacled starspawn and starcursed masses yet 19:51:12 there's a debate whether those should exist outside of the abyss 19:51:17 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:51:18 A 'debate' 19:51:21 debate 19:51:24 debate 19:51:39 The only one I object to appearing outside of the abyss is spatial maelstroms. 19:52:10 the only ones that are any problematic are maelstroms, zymes, and lurking horrors 19:52:13 someone makes corruption not spawn them, someone says then they shouldn't follow you out of the abyss, someone says you're ruining the flavour of corruption if you make it not actually spawn abyss monsters and you might as well just remove it, 19:52:27 "them" here meaning MH_ELDRITCH 19:52:50 I am really feeling 's opinion that the only way to really get things done in crawl is to avoid using ##crawl-dev at all costs 19:53:03 done right, rather 19:53:31 ....what on earth is going on...? 19:53:35 angst 19:53:57 as opposed to normal development 19:54:25 monqy: who says these things? 19:54:34 some bit 19:54:36 If corruption isn't spawning ELDRITCH monsters that's a bug. 19:54:53 i'll find the stuff 19:54:55 bh: You'd think 19:54:55 you see rather then dealing with a handful of bad monsters we need to cut them all out 19:55:15 bh: https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/5968c0aca6dafe2fd305bab82db1b56ea3a6e395 19:55:16 'bad' monsters? You can't scum them. 19:55:24 "Don't let Corruption spawn MH_ELDRITCH monsters outside the Abyss." 19:55:26 annoying 19:55:42 oh no, no unseen horrors from corruption 19:56:29 I don't think spatial maelstroms can even rearrange the dungeon outside of the abyss 19:56:31 let me check the code. 19:57:08 well, people using corruption found instant sickness and likely-instant torment to be kind of excessive 19:57:36 HangedMan: these are reasonable objections. 19:57:37 this clearly means cut out the actually fun starcursed masses and tentacled starspawn right 19:57:53 right 19:58:22 It looks like I never committed some code I had written. Spatial Maelstroms should die a few turns after being out of the abyss. 19:58:23 bh: log file with discussion http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/%23%23crawl-dev-20130118.log 19:58:38 19:45:24 it does seem like if corruption can't produce those monsters that they also shouldn't follow the player out of the abyss 19:58:41 & 19:59:00 19:46:28 I think if you are going to exclude all eldritch stuff from corruption then you need to seriously reflavour it or even just remove it 19:59:41 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 19:59:52 I think we could just tweak corruption. 20:00:09 oh right and before that 20:00:12 19:43:57 Quite frankly, it seems incredibly unthematic that an ability that pulls the abyss into the dungeon specifically excludes things native to the abyss 20:00:26 problem solving is fun 20:00:38 If we made eldritch monsters auto-abyss themselves after some period of time and made corruption delay that effect I think most of the problems would go away 20:01:07 Well, the only REAL problem is LoS stuff hitting the player immediately, and making them disappear after a while doesn't really help with that 20:01:55 Aren't corruption summons neutral? 20:01:58 Yes 20:02:09 that doesn't stop e.g. zyme sickness 20:02:22 or if a wretched star decides to "pop off" a glow 20:02:26 We have the source code. 20:02:42 -!- Zifmia has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:08:21 -!- ark__ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:12:34 what about making corruption only pull from abyss 1 and making the non-dungeon suitable monsters only ever show up on abyss 2+ 20:13:36 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:14:19 Well, that means a bunch of people may never see them, despite them working fine on Abyss:1 20:14:40 That isn't really the problem here, anyway. It's easy enough to exclude a couple things from corruption if they are truly problematic 20:14:42 just like lots of people never see a handfull of demons, 20:15:07 It's just that 'a couple problematic things' is a lot different from 'everything' 20:15:33 i took "non-dungeon suitable" to mean the specific couple of problematic things 20:15:36 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:15:51 DracoOmega: true enough; maybe a corruption blacklist is a better idea, then 20:16:07 the only truly problematic monster is spatial maelstrom. 20:16:07 I think close to everyone who has offered an opinion on the subject is in agreement on this, save one 20:16:11 The rest are merely annoying 20:17:15 alternate approach: make the abilities not affect MH_ELDRITCH and make lugonites | MH_ELDRITCH at corruption piety tier 20:17:27 :D 20:17:29 Eronarn: That's sort of what started this 20:17:41 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:17:57 oh, let me read scroll - i'm actually at a con right now, limited time 20:18:00 I uploaded a patch that made Lugonu protect against those annoying LoS effects you get from corruption 20:18:10 With sufficient piety 20:19:15 There was an objection 20:19:26 And now corruption produces no abyssals at all 20:19:45 -!- Jayrays has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:19:48 ouch 20:19:54 -!- Zermako has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference] 20:19:59 DracoOmega: i'd say do it with MH or not do it at all - random one off resists are confusing and hard to convey 20:20:33 Well, no one seems that confused by Kiku's mummy protection 20:20:38 But that's a bit of a side point 20:20:54 DracoOmega: kiku's mummy protection has definitely been discussed for removal before 20:21:01 and it's not at all obvious to new players 20:21:23 In either case, the number of abyssals that are problematic with corruption is considerably smaller than 'all of them' 20:21:39 yes, blocking all of them is clearly silly 20:21:55 thrashing/unseen horrors are not a problem at all for instance 20:22:03 Among other things 20:22:49 also making corruption actually corrupt levels - bring both terrain and monsters you would normally almost never see in the dungeon - is quite flavorful and good and it might even be worth some annoyance to have that 20:23:09 lugonu can always be made better in other ways to compensate 20:24:04 btw, making corruption roll out over several turns would likely help with this: i suspect people are complaining because of the possibility of multiple LOS effects suddenly happening 20:24:34 and it is a problem if you can roll badly and end up with 3 neutral tormentors on screen 20:25:01 you could add something to kiku's description mentioning that mummy curses are 'death magic miscasts" 20:25:15 faze: sure, but then it's verbose 20:25:34 and if you say 'curses' anywhere, people think cursed items (though this is not specific to kiku, of course) 20:26:05 removing the only source of mummy death curse protection would be unwise imo 20:26:16 the only 'near perfect' source 20:26:49 it would force more players towards lichform 20:27:18 i like being with kiku and being able to kill mummies without worrying about stat rot/draining/item curses/etc 20:27:23 what is the argument against neutral monsters not affect the player with certain effects? 20:27:23 -!- stubblyhead has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:28:06 wait, corruption produces no neutral monsters now? 20:28:15 what is the point of having that ability then 20:28:17 faze: No, it just produces none that are native to the abyss 20:28:22 ohhh 20:28:24 gotcha 20:28:29 that seems like a good idea 20:28:30 As silly as that is, conceptually 20:28:54 it does seem silly, but abyss-only monsters would fuck the player up as neutral beings 20:29:03 err, *mess 20:29:08 Most of them don't 20:29:19 And there are several ways to deal with the couple that do 20:29:26 sorry, i forgot i'm in -dev, i'll use professional language 20:29:32 DracoOmega: ancient zymes 20:29:38 surely it makes more sense to just stop the LOS effects for the problematic ones when they're neutral? is there a legitimate argument against that? 20:29:40 Yes, I am aware of those 20:29:56 mumra's suggestion sounds good for neutral beings 20:30:16 faze: there's also DracoOmega's patch where lugonu offers protection 20:30:31 it doesn't make much sense to me that some ambient effect of being around abyssal monsters just wouldn't happen if they were neutral 20:30:52 same here 20:30:55 Yeah 20:31:00 elliptic: yes, that too 20:31:09 monqy: ah, that sounds good too? 20:31:11 are we worried about realism? 20:31:20 i guess there's a lot of things i haven't looked at yet heh 20:31:21 I'd rather either block those couple of monsters from appearing in corruption or apply DracoOmega's patch 20:31:39 mumra: it's less "realism" and more what's intuitive/counterintuitive, what "makes sense", what the players can expect 20:31:46 lugonu protection vs Sick and torment from the other one sound good 20:32:04 elliptic: btw, thanks for taking the time to apply my patch 20:32:19 as a player it would make sense that corruption wouldn't give me instant sickness / mutation 20:32:25 -!- dspencer has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:32:45 and whatever the mechanism, it would make sense why it was done 20:32:53 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:32:58 -!- Morphy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:34:28 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:39 -!- cookanim is now known as ophanim 20:37:20 but yeah the lugonu protection is probably the clearest explanation without removing the flavour 20:38:28 lugonu protection is a great idea but i'd suggest making it more general in scope for flavor reasons 20:39:32 do those monsters still affect you if they're friendly? (is it possible for them to be friendly?) 20:39:37 like maybe no distortion or spatial disruption damage (but still blink) 20:39:44 mumra: It is possible if you enslave one 20:39:44 mumra: enslave 20:39:48 And yes, they still affect you 20:40:02 (I think wretched stars are magic-immune though, but zymes are not) 20:40:44 given that lucy lets you leave the abyss easily, which is the only time you'll run into them hostile, what about just making lugonites immune in all cases when they have enough piety 20:41:44 Well, that's what the patch does 20:41:46 'You are immune to the corrupting effects of eldritch monsters.' or something 20:41:48 At *** piety 20:42:01 DracoOmega: oh, i thought that was for neutral only, i guess i misread 20:42:04 (Meaning that if you use corruption and it drops you down from **** to ***, you'll still be protected) 20:42:22 DracoOmega: that's actually why i suggested putting the breakpoint the same as corruption, fwiw :) 20:42:34 i think it's more flavorful if you can lose the protection while corruption is up 20:44:16 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:41 -!- _dd has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:48:01 -!- archl has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0/20130107224849]] 20:52:44 Eronarn: "more flavorful" to have to keep track of how close to the ****/*** cutoff you are? 20:53:21 -!- scummos has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:53:34 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:50 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 21:08:16 -!- ToastyP is now known as Guest30096 21:08:31 -!- Guest30096 is now known as ToastyP_ 21:09:21 -!- dspencer has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:11:29 -!- frogbotherer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:26 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:16:44 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:23 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:32:54 -!- rast has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:46 anybody care at all about the dis layout on mantis 21:40:08 it seems nicely distinct and effective aside from the excessive monster placement 21:41:42 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 21:43:53 where is this? 21:44:12 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6485 21:44:19 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6485 21:44:21 curses 21:46:35 -!- dspencer has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:01:48 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:06:01 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0.1/20130116073211]] 22:07:58 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:10:00 -!- pelotr0n is now known as pelotron 22:10:47 -!- archl has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0/20130107224849]] 22:14:06 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 22:17:13 -!- SurpriseTRex_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:17:37 fr: hobkobold 22:18:02 I've contemplated making more kobold varieties now and again. 22:18:43 ...I don't really know what the use of it would be, though, other than making early D a little more varied. 22:20:16 kobold annihilators with sandblast, shock, sting 22:20:28 That would be more of a kobold conjurer. 22:20:39 That's the point 22:20:49 dracoomega is correct 22:21:20 after all, the main assoication between demonologists... 22:23:05 ...aha. 22:23:31 So can we get kobold death mages with Pain and perhaps Animate Skeleton? :b 22:23:59 -!- dspencer has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:26:21 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:31:43 -!- Misder has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:36:44 kobold assassins that are invisible until you step next to them 22:36:54 and cast poison weapon 22:37:03 this doesn't sound comically inept 22:37:04 ontoclasm, the idea of a kobold assassin did cross my mind. 22:37:53 Isn't that Sonja? 22:37:56 HangedMan: getting ambushed by a guy with 15 hp? 22:38:16 DracoOmega: yes, but something that doesn't blink and doesn't (necessarily) spam curare <_< 22:38:34 I was working on an assassin movement pattern a few days ago. 22:38:46 ...nothing to do with stealth mechanics, but it was pretty evil. 22:39:03 Basically, "stay out of range until your target is incapacitated, then go in and stab". 22:39:29 This was, er, "fun" when combined with spriggans and needles of sleeping/paralysis/confusion. 22:39:42 smart kobolds 22:39:42 tisk 22:39:45 should be frenzy 22:40:09 I don't think you count as 'incapacitated' when berserk, frankly :P 22:40:17 You're not. :b 22:40:19 it's for the slowing! 22:40:25 an enemy that berserks you (aside from moths of wrath) could be neat 22:40:30 You are too berserk! 22:40:31 it'd fuck over spellcasters 22:40:52 so you're berserk for a bit and trying to melee the monsters with 30 ev staying out of melee range 22:40:56 and then you're slowed 22:40:56 ontoclasm, this sounds like the basis for a unique. 22:40:58 or nemelexers holding decks :Y 22:41:13 and possibly hungry 22:41:20 HangedMan: and can't use ddoor 22:41:21 -!- blackcustard has quit [Quit: being stupid, sunstruck, and Dead, flew into the rocketing FIN.] 22:41:30 important concern for forest 22:41:38 indeed 22:41:58 also spriggan air mages need orb of elec to replace lightning bolt and spriggan defenders should cast tukima's and carry a back-up weapon 22:41:59 one of my concepts for a forest enemy is a really powerful unseelie fae that messes with your mind 22:42:11 Oh? 22:42:24 and then we'll have spriggan randomizers and spriggan time twisters... :P 22:42:40 -!- shirish_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:42:46 That just sounds arbitrary and twisted. 22:42:46 basically, even being in LoS of it is horrifically bad, but it makes noise which you can hear directionally 22:43:00 so, a wumpus-like 22:43:11 fr: wumpuses! 22:43:12 what happened to directional sounds for players anyway 22:43:48 one ability i thought it should have is that, as long as you're in LoS of it, you count as having stasis 22:43:56 so you can't port away or haste 22:45:23 -!- JackBePatient is now known as ctrlaltdelete 22:45:39 monster inflicted stasis, supported 22:47:03 this concept was a result of reading something about how high-level monsters are hard to make, since high-level players who can't kill them have the tools to just never fight them ever 22:47:43 walking past an orb of fire or ancient lich on zot:5 rarely tends to end well 22:47:56 then again, one never has to fight the &s 22:48:27 but if you see an oof and don't feel like fighting it, you can always just teleport 22:48:55 i mean: 22:48:58 !advice 22:49:11 ??advice 22:49:11 advice[1/18]: RUN 22:49:13 rather 22:50:43 ??mikeee teleport 22:50:43 I don't have a page labeled mikeee_teleport in my learndb. 22:50:44 er 22:50:46 ??mikee teleport 22:50:47 mikee teleport[1/2]: running to where you want to teleport real fast 22:50:54 -!- ToastyP_ is now known as ToastyP 22:51:14 fair enough 22:52:34 HangedMan: just use Electric Form to deal with an ancient lich and an oof 22:53:08 ...what kind of shocking development is that!? 22:54:15 Grunt: It's a form that will never see the light of day. It turns you into an electric golem 22:54:18 bh: boltblinking is pretty close to cblink for players, I was more interested in monsters using it 22:54:30 bands of monsters using it 22:54:38 HangedMan: sounds like a blink frog thing. 22:54:55 blink frogs don't try to hurt the player when they blink! 22:55:33 few air representations as is, anyway 22:56:48 -!- popbob has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:00:39 -!- HangedMan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00:49 -!- dspencer has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:08:42 -!- rkd has quit [] 23:10:08 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:14:16 -!- bonghitz has quit [Client Quit] 23:18:53 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:20:42 -!- Writ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:22:19 %git :/auto.?pickup.+rune 23:22:39 03Matthew_Cline * r336384033b1b: Fixed greedy mode explore_stop so that "items" stops when non-autopickup items come into view and "greedy_items" stops when autopickup items come into view. 10(4 years, 8 months ago, 4 files, 74+ 25-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=336384033b1b 23:22:42 %git :/rune.+auto.?pickup 23:22:42 03Keskitalo * 0.11-a0-2190-g4795a94: Changes to the tutorial, by this year's usability project (KiSS). I commit this in one go for review, we should discuss and pick the good parts. I've added a changelog (I might have missed something) and my own comments. 10(10 months ago, 4 files, 609+ 806-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4795a9474ff2 23:25:09 -!- Ryak has quit [Quit: Easy as 3.14159265358979323846...] 23:27:46 03dolorous 07* 0.12-a0-1701-g5e4ffaf: Properly make is_follower() handle friendly plants under Fedhas. 10(in the future, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5e4ffaf340f9 23:27:46 03dolorous 07* 0.12-a0-1702-g7df28bf: Make Fedhas' plant allies follow you en masse, as Yred and Beogh do. 10(in the future, 1 file, 6+ 4-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7df28bf2a8d8 23:28:16 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:29:56 -!- ZenArcade has joined ##crawl-dev 23:30:26 faze: would you support autopickup for runes? 23:30:59 yes, i was going to write a patch to do that 23:31:10 i saw someone put an issue on mantis for it 23:31:17 kilobyte concurred 23:31:27 it just looks like no one wrote the patch yet, so i will 23:31:51 -!- stabwound has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:52 -!- oberstein has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:29 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 23:33:09 -!- Writ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:33:17 -!- shirish_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:38:46 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:40:55 -!- dspencer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:43:00 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:46:25 I don't mind rune autopickup being default, but personally I will be turning it off 23:47:10 it's a pretty common situation when ninjaing a rune vault in hells or pan that you will be running from stuff and need to teleport away quickly, and yet nothing will quite be in sight when you are standing on the rune 23:47:12 i think the average player would like having that feature 23:47:22 elliptic: yeah 23:47:30 probably, yes 23:48:00 it's easy for us to add a "ae += rune" line 23:49:03 a large majority of players won't ever be in a situation where starting a teleport 1 turn late would kill them 23:49:04 indeed, i'd also turn it off for me but having it on would be reasonable for most players 23:49:30 optimizing for the default case is good for most options like this 23:50:24 elliptic: I'm with you on the corruption ticket 23:50:59 bh: Did you possibly mean 'wretched star' instead of 'starcursed mass' there? 23:51:06 DracoOmega: probably 23:51:14 yes 23:51:27 -!- Nickajeglin has quit [] 23:52:43 DracoOmega: the draining blast was there so that it would be better to voluntarily detonate the horror than suffer involuntary detonation 23:53:06 Well, I don't think anyone does that. And the draining still does 0 damage currently. 23:53:30 What if Lucy only protected you outside of the abyss? 23:53:57 I don't see any problems with Lucy protecting you inside the abyss 23:54:04 I think that only makes the ability more confusing 23:54:08 ok. Does it need a god screen message? 23:54:14 And Lugonu already provides several safety benefits to being in the Abyss 23:54:21 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:56:14 sounds good. I'd like to see if kilo has any other objections before putting it in 23:56:56 -!- Zifmia has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:57:58 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:58:31 -!- Zeor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:58:38 DracoOmega: btw, newnewabyss is really great :) 23:59:05 faze: inception. Let us forget about newabyss, may it rot in hell. 23:59:08 Well, none of the layout work was my doing, but I'll accept praise for the monsters I did :P 23:59:11 agreed. 23:59:18 DracoOmega: <3 the monsters 23:59:23 i thought you did the multilevel stuff 23:59:29 the monsters are great 23:59:31 bh did the layout stuff 23:59:35 And some monsters, too 23:59:40 ah, good work gentlemen 23:59:42 We still need to finish the hydrataur 23:59:46 yay 23:59:51 and the abyssal stair