00:03:41 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1669-g7464318 (34)
00:05:06 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1669-g7464318 (34)
00:06:42 <helsbecter> does anyone know what I could do to get my lua script to go off one turn after the trigger is hit instead of the same turn?
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00:07:28 <helsbecter> I keep looking for countdown but the only context I see it used is when something has to be done periodically in random intervals
00:10:22 <helsbecter> I haven't found any vaults yet where you hit a trigger and something happens later on to borrow from.
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00:19:39 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1669-g7464318
00:25:19 <Grunt> helsbecter, grunt_nemelex_the_gamble
00:25:36 <Grunt> I need to leave, so can't be more specific.
00:25:41 <helsbecter> ok, thanks
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00:46:19 <blackcustard> night all
00:46:33 <blackcustard> ... ugh 12:46... wtf am i still awake
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02:37:18 <Cheibriados> Plants screw up LRD targeting. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6539) by aleksil
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06:24:59 <Cheibriados> 03galehar 07* 0.12-a0-1670-g2596aba: Make explosion targetter ignore plants (#6539). 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2596aba51c13
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06:56:29 <freefall> key_to_command(): command 'CMD_TARGET_CYCLE_MLIST' (1000:79) wrong for desired context
06:56:50 <freefall> got this within the first few turns in latest git build
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07:10:26 <Cheibriados> 03galehar 07* 0.12-a0-1671-gc3064ff: Fix a local tiles compiler warning and some formatting. 10(35 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 4-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c3064fffbed1
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08:50:25 <heftig> i think powered by pain now is becomes less likely to trigger the more advanced it is. is that right?
08:52:26 <heftig> ah, was always this way. never mind
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08:55:21 <elliptic> MarvinPA: do you think it is still good for PbP to trigger less if it is more advanced? I know you get longer duration for might/agility, but that's not immediate unlike getting more MP back
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09:09:22 <alefury> doesnt it still give mp back half the time?
09:10:34 <elliptic> right, but if you only care about the might/agility then it might well actually be worse at higher levels of the mutation
09:21:02 <alefury> could just always tie it to a percentage of max hp
09:21:05 <alefury> instead of xl
09:21:20 <alefury> but that also makes it worse for some chars
09:22:44 <alefury> ds mutations kind of suck in the regard that they dont get a lot of exposure. usually id say just wait and see if people complain about it, but getting a decent sample size can take forever for ds mutations :(
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14:21:46 <Sizzell> Wahaha (L19 SEEE) ASSERT(in_bounds(src_pos) || src_pos.origin()) in 'mon-behv.cc' at line 887 failed. (D:17)
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15:07:25 <Napkin> yeah, real dangerous: The guardian mummy throws a dart. The dart misses you.
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15:09:41 <monqy> monster ranged works differently than player ranged
15:10:23 <Napkin> i defended with an apple worn as shield
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15:20:27 <Cheibriados> 03elliptic 07[vehumet] * 0.12-a0-728-g187787f: Don't gift spells of higher level than the player's XL. 10(86 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=187787f6a792
15:20:27 <Cheibriados> 03elliptic 07[vehumet] * 0.12-a0-729-gd218f27: Vehumet-eligible spell list changes. 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 12+ 6-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d218f2733c6c
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15:33:34 <Grunt> elliptic: hooray, Vehumet work \o/
15:33:50 <Grunt> Hi dpeg.
15:34:04 <dpeg> Hi there!
15:34:15 <elliptic> just a couple things... I got annoyed by failing to find a good way of telling which spells are actual player spells
15:34:18 <dpeg> Yes, Vehumet commit... makes me go and have a look at ##crawl-dev :)
15:34:20 <elliptic> and stopped working
15:34:40 <dpeg> elliptic: oh :(
15:35:00 <elliptic> but I will come back to it... I would like to get vehumet changes in 0.12 if possible
15:35:46 <DracoOmega> elliptic: Is there actually a better way currently than just a list of which ones are?
15:36:04 <DracoOmega> Considering there are several different ways that other code tells, and none of it easily generalizes to other uses
15:36:20 <elliptic> DracoOmega: well, as I said I failed to find a way
15:37:15 <elliptic> spell_rarity(spell) == -1 checks whether a spell is in a non-hard book
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15:37:26 <elliptic> which is close
15:38:02 <DracoOmega> I might be tempted to just make an is_play_spell(spell) function that checked it against some manually created list of all player spells somehow
15:38:07 <Grunt> Perhaps we need an equivalent to is_valid_mon_spell...
15:38:09 <DracoOmega> is_player_spell*
15:40:15 <dpeg> elliptic: awesome, I am happy to read that
15:41:34 <DracoOmega> Also, I have given some thought to various newconjurer feedback and am attempting some changes that I hope will help address some of these concerns
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16:06:28 <kilobyte> galehar: I'd say adding more and more special cases to every targetter like "don't pick plants by default" is a waste of time.  What about doing something akin to current monster beam tracers, that takes a targetter as an argument?
16:07:06 <kilobyte> I mean, picking an aim that would do the most damage to enemies and zero to friends.
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16:09:45 <kilobyte> Grunt: assassin monsters would be pointless without having monster stealth, and that's nontrivial to design if we want to avoid degenerate behaviour like strange explore patterns, shouting then waiting, hitting oneself to get to low hp in a safe spot, etc (these abuses depend on the design used)
16:11:28 <kilobyte> Grunt: you'd probably want to review previous discussions on this subject
16:13:30 <dpeg> Hi kilobyte!
16:13:53 * kilobyte meows at dpeg.
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16:15:28 <kilobyte> (I just returned from bhaak-land; I'm reviewing the backlog)
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16:19:34 <kilobyte> elliptic: greensnark gave all 1.5-handed weapons a large boost when changing a boost with no shield to a penalty with one, you may want to think about undoing that
16:19:47 <elliptic> kilobyte: that is ancient history
16:20:23 <dpeg> !seen greensnark
16:20:23 <Henzell> I last saw greensnark at Wed Jan 16 05:33:53 2013 UTC (16h 46m 30s ago) saying !lg sphorg vaults -tv on ##crawl.
16:20:35 <elliptic> I'm not going to worry about a change made 6 major versions ago
16:21:40 <elliptic> kilobyte: among other things, note that nowadays 1-handed weapons get a penalty with a shield
16:21:44 <elliptic> they didn't back then
16:22:04 <kilobyte> like, you are never going to use a battleaxe over broad unless you want an exec and thus no Shields skill
16:22:31 <elliptic> I see a lot more people using battleaxe than broad axe
16:22:33 <ChrisOelmueller> questioning that statement^
16:22:36 <ChrisOelmueller> yeah
16:22:39 <elliptic> and I didn't change anything about their power anyway
16:22:45 <elliptic> so IDK why you are bringing this up
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16:23:28 <kilobyte> -2 dam is little compared to roughly halving most sources of damage in a 3-runer, better accuracy and delay
16:23:32 <elliptic> broad axe was buffed relative to battleaxe with cleaving changes, and maybe it shouldn't have been
16:23:47 <elliptic> but this has absolutely nothing to do with the 1.5-handed changes I commited
16:23:50 <kilobyte> you just gave it another buff by removing the penalty
16:23:51 <elliptic> which were largely cosmetic
16:23:54 <elliptic> no........
16:24:19 <kilobyte> or rather, reducing it to the 1h version
16:24:20 <bhaak> kilobyte: how was bhaak-land?
16:24:55 <elliptic> kilobyte: the *only* difference that my commit made to broad axes was to halve the accuracy penalty for using a shield with one and without enough shield skill
16:24:59 <elliptic> nothing else
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16:27:03 <kilobyte> bhaak: they make a huge maze of tiny streets which can't even stick to a single name (alternating between different abbreviations and suffixes), never go straight, and are a mess if you account for GPS jamming that must have been in effect there :p
16:27:32 <kilobyte> elliptic: if I remember the discussion correctly, the penalty was massive -- or at least, was supposed to be
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16:27:48 <dpeg> kilobyte: this is the curse of never having your cities raided/bombed in half a millenium!
16:27:58 <elliptic> kilobyte: the other penalties hadn't been applied since 0.9
16:28:19 <elliptic> kilobyte: and they still were zero with enough shield skill
16:28:28 <kilobyte> dpeg: and even worse, they speak German!
16:28:42 <bhaak> kilobyte: you probably found the last place where those tiny mazes are open for cars :)
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16:28:48 <dpeg> kilobyte: part of the reason they weren't bombed, perhaps?
16:29:26 <kilobyte> bhaak: I did not pack a car onto the plane
16:29:33 <elliptic> kilobyte: you are quite likely right that broad axe + shield is better than battleaxe if you have no hope of getting to an exec axe, but I think this is okay... broad axe is rarer and exec axes do exist
16:30:04 <kilobyte> (heck, I even don't own or need one at home, too -- I'd be probably dead if I walked even less)
16:31:05 <kilobyte> elliptic: my point is, looking into the numbers of 1.5-handers could be a good idea, and deciding which ones to nerf and which ones to leave
16:31:11 <kilobyte> like you just did with tridents
16:31:34 <ChrisOelmueller> ??axes
16:31:35 <Henzell> axes[1/3]: [hands](Dam,Acc,Delay): Hand axe (7,3,13); War axe (11,0,15); Broad axe[1.5] (13,-2,16); Battleaxe[2] (15,-4,17); Executioner's axe[2] (18,-6,20)
16:32:35 <elliptic> kilobyte: trident was the only 1.5-hander that saw use with shields with not enough shield skill
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16:33:10 <elliptic> since it is the only early-game 1.5-hander of note, and later on it is easy to (a) find a buckler and (b) train shields skill quickly
16:33:14 <kilobyte> elliptic: ie, you did a review of them all, right?
16:33:36 <alefury> btw, on the tavern galehar brought up making monster data (as per the bots) accessible ingame
16:33:45 <kilobyte> if so, you're probably right
16:33:47 <kilobyte> alefury: +1
16:33:53 <alefury> with a spoiler option, yes no toggle
16:34:04 <kilobyte> alefury: also, effective weapon stats
16:34:25 <alefury> the advantage of monster data is that there is already code for that
16:34:38 <alefury> and that it doesnt change between games
16:34:47 <ChrisOelmueller> you don't want that code in mainline crawl
16:34:49 <elliptic> alefury: -1, the monster data output is quite misleading
16:34:50 <ChrisOelmueller> you really don't
16:34:51 <alefury> weapon stats are harder to get
16:35:04 <ChrisOelmueller> and i'm also not sure it'd really help players
16:35:42 <elliptic> alefury: just one example: "Vul: holy"
16:35:47 <kilobyte> for effective weapon stats, the amount of weapon delay calculations going on on ##crawl and ##crawl-dev points out it's something spoily
16:35:50 <elliptic> this does not mean that holy wrath weapons do extra damage
16:35:55 <alefury> possible spell sets is what i mostly use monster stats for
16:36:27 <alefury> elliptic: yeah, thats really confusing :/
16:36:32 <ChrisOelmueller> that should be attributed to the misdesign of a "min delay" instead though
16:36:33 <alefury> maybe someone should change that
16:36:37 <kilobyte> elliptic: perhaps we should shift the holy resistance then?
16:36:46 <dpeg> I think that just like last time (when Haran listed intrinsics in monster descriptions) it should be done piecewise. For example, spell sets are fine for me.
16:36:57 <elliptic> that was just one example... there's lots of other stuff that nobody understands without it being explained
16:37:01 <ChrisOelmueller> i'd be fine with spell sets
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16:37:09 <elliptic> like, what does Speed: 15 mean
16:37:29 <elliptic> or even worse: "Spd: 10 (swim: 60%)"
16:37:29 <dpeg> The whole lot is too much to grok for a generic/new player, imo, but if spell sets are uncontroversial, why not add them?
16:37:35 <kilobyte> monster speed being 100/player speed is nasty
16:37:37 <elliptic> spell sets sounds fine to me, yes
16:37:40 <alefury> i like knowing attacks too, but they are quite misleading for weapon users
16:38:24 <elliptic> I am against adding HP or HD or damage numbers, since they require many more spoilers to understand or use
16:38:41 <kilobyte> elliptic: "Spd: 10 (swim: 60%)" quite clearly says "swimming only 60% as fast as walking", right? :p
16:38:47 <elliptic> kilobyte: indeed
16:38:56 <alefury> i suggested adding some representation of ac and ev to the resists list a while ago
16:39:13 <elliptic> I don't even like numerical AC/EV, since they don't use the same scale as players
16:39:17 <ChrisOelmueller> comparing monster ac and ev to player numbers -- yep
16:39:23 <alefury> not numbers
16:39:30 <kilobyte> alefury: at the very least in words or as a ####.... bar
16:39:33 <elliptic> alefury: I was in favor of using adjectives to describe those, yeah
16:39:53 <ChrisOelmueller> "quite"
16:39:56 <kilobyte> EV really needs only two values: inaccable and non-inaccable :p
16:40:22 <alefury> also "use fireball"
16:40:44 <kilobyte> AC matters much for a few spells (Sandblast, LRD)
16:40:55 <kilobyte> in most other uses, the monster could just have more hp
16:40:56 <alefury> ac matters much for a lot of spells
16:40:59 <kilobyte> alefury: yeah, and that
16:41:19 <alefury> melee damage is much better against ac than spells in my experience
16:41:43 <kilobyte> alefury: no, my point is, the monster just appears tougher, as players rarely have a real choice between rapid weak attacks and big one chunk ones
16:42:03 <kilobyte> FR: a machine gun spell
16:42:28 <kilobyte> perhaps like DoomRL's rapid fire weapons, especially plasma
16:42:32 <alefury> kilobyte: i dont know if making people care about a currently unlisted stat is a good idea
16:42:55 <alefury> i dont even like having to care about monster size more with constriction
16:43:30 <alefury> (this got much simpler with nagas being able to constrict larger enemies)
16:43:56 <kilobyte> monster AC values seem to be pretty random, too, with no apparent reasoning
16:44:23 <alefury> early on mostly plate armor orcs have ac, and those have a good reason
16:44:41 <alefury> later on its a lot more random, but not that bad imo
16:44:53 <alefury> demons defy all reason anyway, and for natural monsters its not that bad
16:45:49 <kilobyte> having EV and AC described by a scale of 3 or 4 adjectives could be good
16:45:50 <ChrisOelmueller> not like the game wouldn't tell you about the plate armour
16:46:31 <kilobyte> much more, and you start getting into "is 'quite' higher or lower than 'no adjective'?"
16:48:11 <alefury> "It is vulnerable to getting hit" "" "It is resistant to getting hit" "It is nearly immune to getting hit" ;)
16:49:19 <kilobyte> EV: negligible/good/awesome
16:49:26 <alefury> awesome what?
16:49:36 <alefury> just call it EV?
16:49:38 <kilobyte> I mean, spriggans or the like
16:50:05 <kilobyte> I'd make the display terse because of poor folks with tinyterms
16:50:13 <BlastHardcheese> sultana, choko, bread ration
16:50:18 <alefury> uncanny
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16:50:42 <kilobyte> BlastHardcheese: that's exactly why having too many levels or unclear wording is so bad :)
16:51:06 <alefury> it may sound silly, but i think spell hunger bars are actually worse than the old food scale :(
16:51:35 <ChrisOelmueller> i agree with the first part. :)
16:51:45 <dpeg> alefury: sounds perfectly sensible to me =)
16:51:52 <kilobyte> galehar: in c3064fff, you misspelled "fix a crash" :p
16:52:02 <elliptic> what's wrong with the spell hunger bars?
16:52:29 <kilobyte> (crashing in local tiles due to having a % sign is not as bad as in remote games that could be exploitable, but still)
16:52:32 <alefury> i find them to be not very human-readable, and hard to talk about
16:52:50 <alefury> (not like talking about spell hunger is something anyone should do)
16:54:01 <kilobyte> digressing a bit, I feel a need to have a manual section with a list of forms, and wonder whether using abbreviations like rF+++ is ok.  Forms tend to mess with resists a lot, and a mostly tabular form could be good.  Like: spellcasting: no/yes/hampered
16:54:11 <alefury> but if someone says "4 hunger bars" i have no idea how much that is, while i knew "choko" was noticeable, more than choko was something you shouldnt spam when you didnt have to
16:54:20 <alefury> maybe its just because i havent played much lately
16:54:55 <kilobyte> alefury: "choko" would make sense only if the spell would actually cost you a choko worth of nutrition
16:55:26 <alefury> well, it was something like 5 casts, which was farm from obvious
16:55:45 <alefury> but the meaning of the bar is even less obvious
16:56:11 <elliptic> with the bar at least it is clear that 4 bars > 3 bars
16:56:19 <elliptic> this was not clear with the nouns
16:57:06 <alefury> i didnt have trouble with that iirc
16:57:33 <alefury> spell success on the other hand...
16:58:00 <alefury> <3 spell failure numbers btw
16:58:07 <alefury> so good
16:58:30 <elliptic> spell failure numbers are a good use of numbers because the player can know what they mean without any other information
16:58:38 <alefury> maybe a coarser scale could help make spell hunger more clear
16:59:32 <alefury> something like 0, nonzero, noticeable, problematic (0 to 3 pips of spell hunger)
16:59:52 <elliptic> I wouldn't want to have it any coarser than it is
17:00:25 <elliptic> one of the things I hated about the fruit system was that 121 and 400 hunger got the same name
17:00:42 <alefury> that was choko?
17:00:42 <elliptic> and also 41 and 120
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17:01:08 <alefury> oh, honeycomb, and the small one was choko
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17:04:01 <alefury> kilobyte: i wouldnt mind rC+++ and similar abbreviations in a list of forms, but its not the style of the manual. i have no idea if it would be okay.
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17:04:20 <elliptic> doesn't the manual already explain those abbreviations when it talks about randarts?
17:04:25 <alefury> kilobyte: if you want to keep with the current style, each form would get a one paragraph description
17:04:58 <MarvinPA> mostly, in the list of autoinscriptions
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17:05:09 <alefury> explaining them is different from expecting people who read the manual to know them
17:05:11 <MarvinPA> that's not quite the same as the full list of resists but the idea is there
17:05:27 <elliptic> probably paragraphs would be better though for this, especially since there are complicated things like spider form and blade hands hampering spellcasting in different amounts
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17:11:49 <ChrisOelmueller> mmm explaining clinging :-)
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17:18:29 <alefury> ChrisOelmueller: "spider form can cling to walls to get past water or lava"
17:19:18 <alefury> if you want to get fancy, mention that there are no penalties
17:19:38 <alefury> (except that you can die)
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17:22:40 <alefury> can i access actor fields like ac and ev from a monster info? should i? this would leak info about protection weapons, ac/ev jewellery, and armor enchantment, so probably not...
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17:24:40 <kilobyte> alefury: the wisp form's list of resistances would get really monstrous
17:26:29 <kilobyte> it might be some other help file than the manual, possibly a ?/ lookup.  I'm raising this issue since currently the only form that has no associated spell/ability is pig, which has nothing of note other than no spellcasting.
17:28:05 <alefury> kilobyte: just write "highly resistant to most forms of damage"
17:28:57 <alefury> or "highly resistant to elemental damage" or something like that
17:29:09 <kilobyte> "Ashenzari: vaguely mention that you are told stuff."
17:29:18 <alefury> its a bad form
17:29:44 <alefury> its not going to come up a lot, and a general description would be good enough for me
17:30:24 <alefury> im not going to be able to do much in wisp form anyway, so what do i care whether im rC++ or rC+ or rC+++?
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17:31:44 <alefury> kilobyte: you could always set the resists to something you can easily describe :)
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17:36:33 <kilobyte> actually, for UC+EV chars, it's not that bad a form
17:37:15 <kilobyte> which is probably bad, as fighting in it has nothing at all with fisticuffs
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17:49:19 <kilobyte> dpeg: perhaps you could think of some design for jelly form.  People want it, I'm really wary; it's mostly coded except for rewards for eating.  Problem: nutrition means _some_ folks would scum forms to conserve food, hp would either give you a near-invulnerability on a pile of junk, or if we balance for that, make the form defenseless elsewhere.
17:50:23 <kilobyte> (monster jellies get enormous amounts of hp when on junk, it's only their tiny maxhp that makes them killable)
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17:59:19 <dpeg> kilobyte: I have a hard time coming up with something scum-proof. Could also throw spawning off jellies (when eating) into the mix; that has issues on its own.
18:02:04 <Zannick> spawning off copies of you
18:02:18 <Zannick> that turn hostile when you revert form
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18:04:43 <kilobyte> just "fellow slime" would work: you get a bit of screen, and they eat loot you would want
18:06:15 <dpeg> kilobyte: yes, perhaps
18:06:57 <kilobyte> you don't Jiyva piety, too, unless you actually follow Jiyva :p
18:07:22 <kilobyte> ^get
18:08:20 * kilobyte wonders if Fedhas should do something to tree-form players.
18:09:06 <Zannick> treeform allies!
18:09:23 <Zannick> who revert to trees when you leave treeform
18:09:32 <kilobyte> (I didn't even suggest giving Jiyva piety for stuff _you_ eat, just allied jellies, like normally)
18:10:02 <kilobyte> Awaken Forest would be rather powerful in some places.
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18:12:10 <kilobyte> oh, Fedhas vs spriggan druids.  Should the spell fail to work if you follow Fedhas?
18:12:43 <kilobyte> or perhaps at least give a message about him being not amused by people enslaving trees for their purposes
18:13:24 <elliott> it should immediately excommunicate you
18:13:28 <DracoOmega> I think it would be fine to protect the player from harmful trees, since he already protects the player from aggression by other forms of plantlife
18:13:58 <DracoOmega> And it's hardly much of a balance issue given how few druids you'll ever encounter in a normal game
18:14:08 <kilobyte> elliott: not a player spell
18:14:15 <ChrisOelmueller> is this regular druid in lair still a thing
18:14:27 <elliott> kilobyte: yes
18:14:32 <elliott> kilobyte: the spriggan druids should be excommunicated
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18:15:54 <kilobyte> DracoOmega: no one has time to finish the Forest branch, a couple of potential layout generators have been talked about but tests show the monster set is no good (too hard if you have no effect that ignores EV, trivial if you do)
18:16:30 <DracoOmega> Well, even then, it's not like it's strange/bad for a god to grant useful protection against some main threats in a branch
18:16:33 <DracoOmega> I mean, that already happens
18:16:46 <DracoOmega> With, say, Kiku's specific anti-mummy effects
18:17:11 <kilobyte> true
18:17:32 <DracoOmega> Or Jiyva, for that matter
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18:31:54 <HangedMan> !tell greensnark ...no reason to make "decor" conditional, yes. Fixing up the patch slightly, but I just found a bug where conditionals for the extra tag don't work so welp
18:31:55 <Henzell> HangedMan: OK, I'll let greensnark know.
18:32:19 <HangedMan> btw somebody fix conditionals always counting vaults tagged as extra if that's part of the conditional please
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18:37:33 <Cheibriados> Inception - Mimics get the special monster spawning messages (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6540) by Claws
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18:47:22 <greensnark> HangedMan: Conditionals don't work well for tags
18:47:22 <Henzell> greensnark: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
18:47:36 <greensnark> Because the conditional is evaluated before the game starts
18:47:50 <greensnark> So you can't check where the player is -- the player is nowhere
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18:48:06 <greensnark> But in any case, I didn't see why decor needed to be conditional
18:48:28 <HangedMan> yes, and I'm fixing that up now
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18:49:16 <HangedMan> if the other one can't be fixed easily then I'm at a loss for marking vaults as extra when they're harmless/features but not beforehand, bah
18:49:40 <HangedMan> (select cloud generator vaults in hells, overflow vaults after D:9)
18:49:54 <greensnark> Oh
18:51:08 <greensnark> extra should still work actually
18:51:17 <greensnark> It's the decor that's problematic when conditional
18:51:30 <greensnark> Any case where you're saying "find me a map with this tag" cannot be conditionalized easily
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18:51:49 <greensnark> "extra" is evaluated after finding the map by other means, so it can be conditional
18:53:08 <HangedMan> ...ah
18:55:44 <greensnark> !lg * kmap!= map= max=xl -tv
18:55:46 <Sequell> 81. 420xXRONxxPAULXx420, XL20 MiBe, T:51869 requested for FooTV.
18:57:15 <Zannick> quite the username
18:57:45 <greensnark> I don't understand the 420
18:57:56 <greensnark> But given the rest of it I probably don't want to understand it
18:58:04 <HangedMan> gold leaf wraps
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19:01:31 <phyphor> greensnark: 420 is code for smoking cannabis
19:01:41 <greensnark> Oh!
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19:14:13 <DracoOmega> Haha, I notice that the fulminant prism range bug is even mentioned in the code for conjure flame (which includes a safeguard against such things)
19:14:14 <DracoOmega> / FIXME: This would be better handled by a flag to enforce max range.
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19:53:04 <HangedMan> Could somebody with mantis admin controls delete the first two patches on #6538?
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20:51:19 <DracoOmega> I wish I could figure out exactly what circumstances are required to get monsters to not even bother attacking friendly (to the player) things that are in their way.
20:51:38 <DracoOmega> It happens often enough to be noticable, but I've yet to find the exact circumstances which trigger it
20:52:22 <DracoOmega> (I'm using fulminant prism in this case, but I'm almost certain the issue is a more general one)
20:52:49 <DracoOmega> It seems to help if you spawn the prism in their way while the monsters themselves cannot currently see you, though this doesn't guarentee it
20:53:13 <DracoOmega> But sometimes this causes them to just pile up and pause with it blocking their way, for many turns at a time (I disabled the fuse on it temporarily)
20:53:27 <DracoOmega> More oddly, sometimes if you walk back so that they CAN see you, they will STILL just sit there and look at you
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20:57:42 <kilobyte> you want to check their behaviour and foe
20:59:06 <DracoOmega> Their behavior is still seek and the foe is still the player
20:59:15 <DracoOmega> But they're just staring there looking at it (and these are melee-only mobs)
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21:01:27 <kilobyte> I've seen this a lot in other cases too
21:01:44 <DracoOmega> Yes, I was pretty sure this wasn't a prism-specific thing
21:02:08 <kilobyte> make a friendly and a hostile monster, wake them to set their foe to you, wiz-teleport behind glass, wait
21:02:25 <kilobyte> (or anywhere they can't path to)
21:02:41 <DracoOmega> Well, the glass bit makes somewhat more sense in that they CAN'T path there. But clearly pathfinding will be happy to find a path THROUGH enemy monsters a lot of times
21:02:50 <DracoOmega> And it usually does
21:02:54 <DracoOmega> Except sometimes it doesn't?
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21:09:28 <DracoOmega> I am wondering if there may be random rolls somewhere in this process that are affecting things, because I cannot find any consistently reproducible circumstances for this
21:12:21 <DracoOmega> Hmmm... maybe I finally have
21:13:01 <DracoOmega> Okay, this is interesting
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21:13:13 <DracoOmega> Let me whip up a couple examples here :P
21:14:44 <DracoOmega> #Y####
21:14:44 <DracoOmega> #Y####
21:14:44 <DracoOmega> #*####
21:14:44 <DracoOmega> #BA...
21:14:44 <DracoOmega> #BA...
21:14:45 <DracoOmega> #.B...
21:14:57 <DracoOmega> Okay, so the Ys are yaks and the * is a prism
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21:15:28 <DracoOmega> If I stand at either spot marked A, the yaks can see me, but just sit there. The moment I move to a spot marked B (and probably other places to, but put that to one side for the moment), they attack the prism
21:15:37 <DracoOmega> Then if I move BACK to A, they stop attacking the prism immediately
21:16:56 <DracoOmega> Definitely seems like some sort of pathfinding fault
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21:23:02 * Grunt returns.
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21:28:01 <elderman> Hi, I'm getting some warnings while building crawl
21:28:02 <elderman> http://pastebin.com/ADJ9jmLw
21:29:15 <elderman> the build seems to run fine, however
21:29:42 <elderman> anything I should worry about?
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22:05:28 <blackcustard> you'd think at some point il'd pick a ticket that really was simple :S.
22:06:19 <Gretell> Debian builds of the trunk branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1671-gc3064ff
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23:17:35 <DracoOmega> Okay, well it looks like at some point along the line, the monster is trying to walk into a wall instead of the prism to the left of that wall
23:17:48 <DracoOmega> And since there is no monster in that wall, it sits still
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23:32:04 <DracoOmega> Okay, narrowed down the cause further. And this makes it actually a very simple fix for the fulminant prisms, though does sort of raise issues in some other circumstances
23:33:15 <DracoOmega> The monster considers the prisms to be firewood and thus does not consider it a good move to step in their direction. And thus since it does not have any options for what it considers a 'good move' it uses a fallback routine which adjusted the path to at least be angled towards the player. Which in this cases makes it try to walk into a wall and thus do nothing
23:33:47 <Grunt> I'd say the 'walk into a wall' bit is buggy behaviour.
23:33:51 <DracoOmega> Well, yes
23:34:11 <Grunt> ...until such a time as monster passwall gets added back in, at least. <______<
23:34:13 <DracoOmega> Since this means that whether or not monsters will chew through plants to get at you depends on where you are standing in relation to said plant and walls
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23:38:17 <DracoOmega> Now that I think on it, I had always wondered why monsters would sometimes seem to not attack plants for a little while, when you were behind them, and then start in on them
23:38:22 <DracoOmega> I guess this is why?
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23:38:40 <Grunt> Sounds like it.
23:40:38 <Cheibriados> Shatter Spell Description (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6541) by UnknownKirbyMan
23:40:49 <DracoOmega> I'm not currently sure the sensible way to fix this, though
23:41:23 <Grunt> I might look further into it when I get a chance.
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