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00:03:39 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1110-gca9018d (34)
00:05:17 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1110-gca9018d (34)
00:06:27 <elliott> bh: yes
00:06:44 * bh slaps elliott around with a trout
00:11:47 <bh> wow. I think that's the second time I've ever died from a trap
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00:19:53 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1110-gca9018d
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05:00:03 <Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1110-gca9018d
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05:16:27 <Gretell> Canard (L27 DEFE) ASSERT(!invalid_monster_index(mg.foe) || mg.foe == MHITYOU || mg.foe == MHITNOT) in 'mon-place.cc' at line 1680 failed. (Slime:6)
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09:08:40 <kilobyte> someone educate me: what's the point to ever choose a battleaxe instead of a broad?  13 dam + massive defense vs 15 dam
09:12:41 <kilobyte> exec is a different matter with 18 dam.  What about upping battleaxes to 16?
09:13:20 <kilobyte> (or lowering exec and broad, they're still axes with cleave insanity)
09:13:27 <ChrisOelmueller> or reducing broad axe damage instead
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09:15:11 <ChrisOelmueller> don't think exec axes should lose more though
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09:15:38 <kilobyte> cleavage...
09:15:47 <elliott> maybe broad axes are relatively too good to battleaxes with the damage reductions, since imo axes are partly defined by the fact that the two-handers are a lot better
09:16:00 <elliott> really don't think the two-handers need more damage reduction though
09:17:14 <kilobyte> then battleaxe +1
09:17:46 <elliott> seems reasonable
09:18:03 <ChrisOelmueller> didn't you just argue against that because cleaving was too good
09:18:06 <kilobyte> war axes are pretty good, too, at least in the early game before you get a broad
09:18:10 <ChrisOelmueller> or was i misunderstanding something
09:18:47 <elliott> arguably exec axes should have a larger gap between them and battleaxes though, since they are meant to be really rare unless you get weapon gifts (which sort of strengthens the axe<->Trog synergy which is already present with berserk benefitting from cleaving)
09:18:54 <kilobyte> ChrisOelmueller: I'm arguing about all axes except hand and battle being too good, but if you all are opposed to nerfing them, giving +1 to battleaxes would remove the no-brainer
09:19:06 <elliott> I guess broad axes do not really need a nerf though
09:19:35 <Eronarn> what about nerfing cleave numbers
09:19:39 <kilobyte> they get shield penalties in the early game, so kind of yeah
09:19:52 <kilobyte> Eronarn: +1000, except you'd need to argue with dpeg
09:20:35 <Eronarn> personally i'd do something like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 for the axes, and then -1 if you use that axe with a shield
09:23:15 <ChrisOelmueller> Eronarn: so how would a 2 cleave centered on something work
09:25:17 <st_> picks the next adjacent enemy
09:25:41 <elliott> 2-cleave is it cleaves the enemy and you
09:25:45 <elliott> so you hurt yourself every turn
09:27:03 <ChrisOelmueller> st_: i mean, what if there is more than one adjacent enemy
09:27:53 <ChrisOelmueller> i absolutely hate how current cleave works in certain situations too
09:28:03 <ChrisOelmueller> but this would make it abysmally bad instead of just bad
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10:06:00 <Cheibriados> 03faze 07* 0.12-a0-1111-g82f6f0a: Fix items dropped by certain uniques not being autoinscribed 10(25 hours ago, 1 file, 9+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=82f6f0a0a84e
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10:21:16 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1112-g9e7a44d: Run costly door checks only for actual closed doors. 10(12 hours ago, 2 files, 29+ 36-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9e7a44d42546
10:21:16 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1113-g18e4aba: Reorder checks in _mons_check_foe(). 10(12 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 6-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=18e4aba8e345
10:21:16 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1114-gb9bc67f: A negligible optimization of slime walls. 10(11 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b9bc67f4cf6b
10:21:16 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1115-g48e72cc: Get rid of several C_SQUARE uses. 10(6 weeks ago, 6 files, 8+ 21-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=48e72cc66138
10:21:16 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1116-gee3a6fd: Eliminate LOS checks from one of radius_iterators. 10(6 weeks ago, 2 files, 3+ 5-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ee3a6fda9194
10:21:16 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1117-gcf94db1: Don't create a circle_def object just to check distance. 10(6 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cf94db1a16ec
10:21:16 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1118-g5fcafde: Move LOSSelect enums (private to one file) out of the LOS_ prefix. 10(6 weeks ago, 1 file, 31+ 31-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5fcafdecc1cc
10:21:16 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1119-gcf2895a: Alias LOS_ARENA to LOS_NONE. 10(6 weeks ago, 2 files, 3+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cf2895abad3e
10:21:16 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1120-gd870d7b: Brace and formatting fixes. 10(53 minutes ago, 4 files, 1+ 9-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d870d7b5c4e3
10:21:16 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1121-ga95db55: Remove unused ATTR_RND_LVL_BOOKS. 10(15 minutes ago, 2 files, 4+ 22-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a95db55b0d35
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11:40:02 <bh> looking at mantis, this MrMrMonkey guy has goodideas
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12:23:11 <Cheibriados> 03ontoclasm 07* 0.12-a0-1122-gd14c632: Butterflies (bloax) 10(4 minutes ago, 12 files, 4+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d14c632375d6
12:24:56 <Sizzell> xw (L8 HOBe) ASSERT(load_mode != LOAD_VISITOR) in 'files.cc' at line 1227 failed. (D:255)
12:26:04 <elliptic> !lm * crash -log
12:26:04 <Sequell> 4204. xw, XL8 HOBe, T:7833 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/xw/crash-xw-20121118-182454.txt
12:26:09 <ontoclasm> nice confused javelin throwing
12:34:14 <bh> ontoclasm: ah butterflies. Probably the best level 1 spell
12:34:23 <ontoclasm> indeed
12:34:57 <bh> I really would like to see ood get a few more HP and plow through things until it runs out
12:35:12 <elliptic> HP?
12:35:24 <Cheibriados> orb of destruction (16*) | Spd: 30 | HD: 5 | HP: 1000 | AC/EV: 0/10 | 11non-living, fly | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 08acid, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm++ | XP: 0 | Sz: little | Int: plant.

12:35:24 <elliptic> %??orb of destruction
12:35:30 <elliptic> 1000 HP not enough? :P
12:35:44 <bh> oh. They *do* explode on the first thing they hit, though.
12:36:08 <ontoclasm> hitting an ood with an attack should bat it back at the caster
12:36:12 <ontoclasm> at higher speed
12:36:32 <elliptic> (note that the HP actually doesn't matter)
12:36:33 <|amethyst> FR: that's the "special move" of M&F
12:36:55 <bh> elliptic: If ood had  to mulch 10 hp of monsters before it exploded, sbutterflies wouldn't completely nerf it
12:37:12 <ChrisOelmueller> is that good or bad
12:37:48 <elliptic> I don't think butterflies being good against IOOD is really a problem
12:37:55 <ChrisOelmueller> indeed
12:37:56 <MarvinPA> it's not like there's any shortage of ways to easily avoid monster oods
12:37:59 <elliptic> they aren't even that reliable nowadays
12:38:07 <Eronarn> typically the other ways aren't as silly
12:38:14 <elliptic> typically the other ways are better
12:38:29 <bh> blink?
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12:38:31 <elliptic> walking
12:38:32 <MarvinPA> blink or walk
12:38:37 <Eronarn> so what's wrong with taking this one out then, it wouldn't be a balance change :)
12:38:39 <bh> oh. I never tested disjunction and ood
12:38:46 <Eronarn> (butterflies should be clouds, not monsters)
12:38:49 <MarvinPA> it'll blink them, it probably shouldn't
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12:39:35 <elliptic> IOOD doesn't have no_tele?
12:40:13 <bh> if it doesn't -- ood + teleport trap + zot:5 :)
12:40:16 <elliptic> Eronarn: no reason to increase the complexity of the spell
12:40:27 <elliptic> bh: they disappear when they go out of sight of you
12:40:37 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: so you're going to merge in lorcs now, righ
12:40:41 <MarvinPA> looks like dispersal checks for no_tele and projectiles seperately, probably they should just have no_tele, yeah
12:40:57 <ontoclasm> Eronarn: my butterflies are on "
12:41:07 <ontoclasm> since they are furniture
12:41:12 <bh> ontoclasm: that's adorable.
12:41:24 <bh> butterflies are great arrow sponges though
12:48:31 <bh> "Your orb of destruction blinks!" heh
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13:08:54 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-1123-g5695ddc: Give projectiles no_tele 10(18 minutes ago, 2 files, 4+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5695ddcd5ffa
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13:51:30 <bh> ??projectile
13:51:30 <Wenzell> I don't have a page labeled projectile in my learndb.
13:51:46 <bh> MarvinPA: what are projectiles apart from ood? delayed fireball?
13:52:03 <ontoclasm> ood
13:53:50 <elliott> iood, iood and iooh
13:53:57 <elliott> (fr give hydrae projectile flag)
13:56:44 <bh> elliott: FR Delayed Blast Summon Kraken
13:57:33 <Eronarn> still want a magma kraken spell
13:58:20 <bh> Eronarn: you seem to have a fascination with fire.
13:58:26 <bh> also: Thank god your guy lost.
14:00:45 <Eronarn> indeed
14:01:16 <Eronarn> bh: if you didn't see in c-o, here's me and mittens: http://www.flickr.com/photos/timotoole/8170410979/in/set-72157631970524352
14:01:40 <bh> They let someone with hair that long get near President Mittens?
14:02:02 <Eronarn> bh: i got him to make out an autograph to "Eronarn"
14:02:05 <bh> he did hold you down and cut your hair off? :)
14:02:15 <bh> awesome.
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14:02:44 <bh> his face is identical in all of those pictures. It's horrifying.
14:03:17 <bh> The meta-data says November 10. zing
14:03:34 <Eronarn> i really want someone to make a gif of them
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14:12:25 <bh> brb, firefox is leaking memory like mad
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14:19:15 <kilobyte> bh: that ASSERT(env.cloud_no == 0); means some cloud avoided the wipe
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14:27:57 <ontoclasm> oh for crap's sake
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14:35:15 <Cheibriados> 03ontoclasm 07* 0.12-a0-1124-g4ee43f3: Butterfly fix 10(4 minutes ago, 11 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4ee43f3f1323
14:37:42 <ontoclasm> note to self: don't trust bloax to submit tiles that are the right size
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15:05:23 <bh> kilobyte: how could clouds avoid the wipe?
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15:36:49 <faze> Eronarn: you have uncanny hair
15:36:52 <faze> ??hair stats
15:36:52 <Wenzell> hair stats[1/1]: extremely bad hair <10, awful hair <30, poor hair <60, choko hair <90, normal hair <120, quite good hair<160, very nice hair<220, extreme hair<300, extraordinary hair <400, incredible hair <520, uncanny hair >=520
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15:38:23 <Eronarn> thanks. i only use choko-based hair care products
15:40:02 <bh> is there some way to get a stratification of spells known in won games broken down by skill level?
15:40:26 <bh> ie. shatter (just picking something) might have a low 'won game' rate amongst everyone, but a very high rate with those with 'Earth 25'
15:42:42 <bh> ??bad spells
15:42:42 <Wenzell> I don't have a page labeled bad_spells in my learndb.
15:43:31 <Eronarn> lava orcs...........
15:46:44 <faze> bh: not really
15:47:55 <DracoOmega> Well, you could plausibly write something that could parse the morgue files to get that sort of statistic, I guess. But I'm pretty sure no way CURRENTLY exists
15:47:56 <HangedMan> is it too easy to say cigotuvi's
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15:58:43 <alefury> its fairly easy, but i wouldnt say too easy
15:58:50 <alefury> hes only a wizard after all, not a demon
15:58:56 <alefury> probably
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16:00:05 <HangedMan> probably keep messing up the proper arrangement of letters like neqoxec/nexoqec
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16:17:06 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-1125-ga7c5d47: Give the cloak of the Thief an evokable ability to release fog 10(2 hours ago, 10 files, 52+ 9-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a7c5d47ac657
16:17:06 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-1126-g7f6d5b2: Un-rename a vault monster 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7f6d5b29848e
16:18:38 <Eronarn> fog? that sounds quite powerful
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16:36:12 <HangedMan> why are black_bear_nest_[1|2] standard vaults instead of minivaults
16:37:27 <Cheibriados> 03dolorous 07* 0.12-a0-1127-g22c0c32: Remove now-unused deep elf watchman description. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 6-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=22c0c32e634d
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16:38:29 <bh> What's the highest level portal vault? Volcano?
16:38:35 <Eronarn> wizlabs
16:38:50 <bh> I've never actually found one of those
16:39:04 <ChrisOelmueller> zig
16:39:15 <HangedMan> bleh, have been doing too many things to actually remember to work on gauntlet
16:39:16 <bh> zig isn't timed, it doesn't count
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17:05:14 <Henzell> Poncheis the Axe Maniac (L16 HODK) ERROR: range check error (-1 / 80) (D)
17:07:15 <kilobyte> !lm * type=crash -log
17:07:16 <Sequell> 4204. xw, XL8 HOBe, T:7833 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/xw/crash-xw-20121118-182454.txt
17:07:26 <kilobyte> !lm Poncheis type=crash -log
17:07:31 <Sequell> 16. Poncheis, XL20 DEFE, T:53376 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Poncheis/crash-Poncheis-20121013-011201.txt
17:07:34 <kilobyte> !lm Poncheis sprint type=crash -log
17:07:35 <Sequell> 1. Poncheis, XL16 HODK, T:4101 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Poncheis/crash-Poncheis-20121118-230513.txt
17:18:09 <Cheibriados> Mysterious message when weapons unmeld (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6389) by raskol
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17:48:34 <Cheibriados> 03Mu 07* 0.12-a0-1128-g6f5eed7: Fix exclusion radius warnings in grated_community_mu. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 30+ 16-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6f5eed799fc6
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17:51:37 <MarvinPA> !tell DracoOmega looks like if a starspawn falls through a shaft it'll leave the tentacles behind, just sitting there happily :P
17:51:37 <Henzell> MarvinPA: OK, I'll let DracoOmega know.
17:52:34 <MarvinPA> (for all those common cases where you drag one out of the abyss and onto a shaft, of course)
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18:22:03 <HangedMan> corrrrrrruptionnnnnnnnnnn
18:22:04 <DracoOmega> Oh dear
18:22:04 <Henzell> DracoOmega: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
18:22:35 <DracoOmega> I guess kraken probably currently do this too, then?
18:22:40 <DracoOmega> It's just kind of hard to get them over a shaft
18:24:22 <HangedMan> fedhas plus minefield card, obviously
18:24:35 <HangedMan> of course getting them over a shaft and with their tentacles
18:24:47 <HangedMan> maybe swap instead
18:25:47 <DracoOmega> In any case, at least this doesn't sound like the kind of thing that would be too hard for me to fix
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18:32:31 <evilmike> if it falls into a shaft, the shaft gets converted to a malign gateway
18:32:48 <DracoOmega> Haha
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18:56:21 <DracoOmega> Yay for simple fixes
18:56:43 <DracoOmega> !tell MarvinPA Added a patch to fix that issue; see https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6335
18:56:43 <Henzell> DracoOmega: OK, I'll let MarvinPA know.
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22:08:07 <Gretell> Debian builds of the trunk branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1128-g6f5eed7
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22:31:11 <bh> deflagrate would be a great name for a spell.
22:33:08 <bh> evilmike: do we have some way of producing a list of the least popular skills, somehow normalizing by skill level? (I don't think you were around when I asked this earlier)
22:34:30 <evilmike> bh: well I guess you could parse character dumps, I dunno if there's an easier/quicker way
22:34:47 <evilmike> but this isn't totally useful, because the level of a skill is not a good indicator of how "popular" it is
22:34:59 <bh> that's no fun, I still have a few hundred megabytes of old morgues kilobyte gave me that I haven't parsed
22:35:31 <bh> evilmike: sure, but a character with Fire 2 isn't going to have ever thought of casting Fire Storm, for example
22:35:54 <evilmike> yes, but there are some skills people wont train that high, even though they are used all game
22:36:02 <evilmike> eg you can cast blade hands with relatively low tmut investment
22:36:05 <bh> Poison and Traps spring to mind
22:36:13 <evilmike> those are other examples, yeah
22:36:45 <evilmike> you're also not going to see many people training up ranged skills, except on specialists
22:36:52 <bh> the motivation is culling/fixing bad spells
22:36:57 <elliptic> also some games people raise three skills really high and others people raise eight skills to a medium level
22:37:58 <elliptic> parsing morgue files is not how I would go about figuring out which spells are bad
22:38:00 <evilmike> i think if fixing up bad spells is a goal, then it's better to just rely on subjective judgement
22:38:22 <bh> ok -- what are three spells you would never memorize?
22:38:27 <evilmike> condensation shield
22:38:29 <elliptic> cigotuvi
22:38:37 <elliptic> poly other
22:38:50 <elliptic> I'd memorize condensation shield
22:38:54 <bh> elliptic: I thought that was just a wand effect
22:38:54 <elliptic> it is really pretty good on some chars
22:39:03 <bh> ??polymorph other
22:39:03 <Wenzell> polymorph other[1/5]: Changes monsters into other monsters, likely to be harder, but without equipment. When used on players by monsters, it causes bad mutations 9 times out of 10, or otherwise a random mutation, which can still be bad. You can't use it on yourself.
22:39:11 <elliptic> bh: spell also unless it was removed and I didn't notice...
22:40:05 <bh> ??condensation shield
22:40:06 <Wenzell> condensation shield[1/1]: Creates a shield that doesn't require a hand to wield (can be used with two-handed weapons, but not with a real shield), with duration based on power and strength based on ice magic. Melts when hit by fire. Stacks with the {helm card} and TSO's divine shield.
22:40:28 <evilmike> does it still use shields skill?
22:40:29 <elliptic> I'm actually having trouble thinking of a third spell I would never memorize after cigotuvi/poly other
22:40:38 <elliptic> evilmike: yes
22:41:00 <elliptic> I think
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22:42:56 <elliptic> if I am reading this correctly, it uses shield skill but not as heavily as a regular shield would
22:43:00 <dtsund> !learn add condescension_shield Dude, seriously, what the heck do you think you're doing even *learning* this spell?
22:43:01 <Wenzell> condescension shield[1/1]: Dude, seriously, what the heck do you think you're doing even *learning* this spell?
22:43:18 <bh> eyeroll
22:43:18 <elliptic> and it also uses ice magic skill and intelligence
22:44:23 <evilmike> it seems like a lot of defensive spells do things like that (as opposed to only using spellpower)
22:45:16 <elliptic> using skills rather than spellpower doesn't bother me
22:45:27 <elliptic> I do think that it should just use ice magic and nothing else probably
22:45:33 <evilmike> well, I'm ok with it using ice magic, but shields bugs me
22:45:40 <evilmike> to me that would be like throw flame using throwing, or ozo's armour using armour
22:45:59 <elliptic> yes
22:46:23 <bh> evilmike: FR: Make throw flame use throwing, duh
22:46:32 <elliptic> oh, I guess it also still uses str/dex
22:46:35 <elliptic> what a mess
22:46:52 <elliptic> oh no it doesn't
22:46:58 <elliptic> that's good at least
22:47:08 <bh> ??which stat
22:47:08 <Wenzell> which stat[1/1]: int
22:48:12 <elliptic> maybe I will change it to not use shield skill and intelligence
22:48:23 <elliptic> since this actually looks fairly easy
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23:19:34 <elliptic> people on reddit are claiming that the chances of early Jiyva altars were intentionally increased a lot in 0.11, but I can't find a commit... does anyone know if there is any truth to this?
23:20:21 <elliptic> since if so I'd like to argue against this... I actually would rather not have any early Jiyva altars at all, and definitely not more common
23:20:56 <evilmike> i noticed that thread, and my thought was "it
23:21:01 <evilmike> 's just you"
23:21:10 <evilmike> although i didnt post anything because maybe i missed something
23:21:14 <DracoOmega> I don't recall a commit that did this DELIBERATELY, anyway
23:21:42 <evilmike> i think one new jiyva altar vault was added
23:22:09 <elliptic> yeah, I saw the new vault, and I noticed it isn't in altar.des with the others... does this matter?
23:22:22 <evilmike> nope
23:23:38 <evilmike> I guess it should be moved there for organizational reasons, but that won't change how it's placed
23:23:48 <bh> reddit. They're good for nothing. Ignore their prattle.
23:23:57 <elliptic> does having 2 early jiyva vaults instead of 1 mean double the frequency, anyway?
23:24:10 <elliptic> (assuming no other vaults added, which obviously is not the case)
23:24:44 <evilmike> yeah, unless their weights are changed
23:24:53 <evilmike> these are just being placed as regular minivaults
23:24:57 <elliptic> yeah
23:25:16 <evilmike> there are ways of getting around this, such as tagging them as uniq_altar_jiyva, or something
23:25:51 <DracoOmega> That won't decrease the chance of getting at least ONE of them early, though, will it?
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23:27:43 <elliptic> well, I'm not really worrying about variations in frequency caused by number of vaults :)
23:28:17 <evilmike> DracoOmega: yeah
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23:49:19 <Cheibriados> 03elliptic 07* 0.12-a0-1129-g8823b2a: Make Condensation Shield SH independent of Shields skill and intelligence. 10(11 minutes ago, 3 files, 6+ 16-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8823b2a8960e
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