00:01:12 Well it seems you guys need to set up a Ddungeon crawl Stone Soup donation fund 00:01:27 Pre-release branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-b1-81-g307a5c8 (33) 00:01:28 seems the roguelike community has some nice $$$ to donate 00:01:39 if adom is anything to go by 00:02:02 the only place for money to go to would be a server. Currently there are no servers accepting donations 00:02:58 Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.11-b1-81-g307a5c8 00:03:50 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-269-g7e9275d (34) 00:08:29 evilmike: there was some vague talk of setting up a new tiles server in europe, maybe funded by donations 00:08:52 ah, that would be good to have 00:08:56 someone would need to volunteer still 00:09:46 given that thomas biskup managed to raise more than 60k dollars, I think a donation-fueled server would be viable 00:12:28 87k currently 00:12:43 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 00:13:21 nice 00:13:48 a shame there's no goal for getting rid of the grindier parts of the game... 00:15:41 tbh the amount of money for the change log seems insane. Two stretch goals 5k each were for little more than a single quest 00:18:20 I wouldn't be surprised if the adom source is a huge mess. TB can be weird sometimes but I believe him when he says that it takes way more work for him to improve adom, than it does for him to add new stuff to adom 2 or whatever he calls it now 00:18:37 I think he said something like, it takes 10x more work 00:19:35 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-269-g7e9275d 00:23:31 -!- tensorpudding_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:24:33 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:39 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 00:32:53 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 00:38:39 -!- Fear has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:43:49 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:45:38 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 00:49:22 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:51:09 -!- Yen has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:59:30 -!- Staplefun has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:00:28 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:30 -!- the_glow has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:09:13 -!- Sab0t__ is now known as sab0t 01:14:54 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 01:22:22 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:23:46 -!- VideoGames has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:28:51 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:10 -!- tensorpudding_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:31:55 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:07 Green Crystal and Abyss Walls (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6137) by ontoclasm 02:07:23 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 02:07:41 Napkin: when you get a chance, could you make the 0.11 morgue directory accessible? (I am assuming it will be http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.11/) Also, Gretell doesn't seem to be announcing 0.11 games/milestones, so I'm guessing it needs to be told where the logfile/milestones are? 02:09:02 -!- rufford has quit [] 02:10:09 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:11:49 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:12:09 -!- Palyth has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:12:20 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:17:07 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:19:28 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:42 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:20:51 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 02:21:33 done, elliptic 02:22:48 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 02:24:20 Napkin: thanks! 02:25:15 :) 02:34:43 -!- imantor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:35:46 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 02:38:12 !tell amethyst Are CSZO rcfiles accessible somewhere? Something analogous to http://crawl.develz.org/configs/0.11/ would be good for the tournament if possible (so that players can set up their teams using their CSZO rcfiles if they want) 02:38:12 elliptic: OK, I'll let amethyst know. 02:38:48 !tell edlothiol Are CSN rcfiles accessible somewhere? Something analogous to http://crawl.develz.org/configs/0.11/ would be good for the tournament if possible (so that players can set up their teams using their CSN rcfiles if they want) 02:38:48 elliptic: OK, I'll let edlothiol know. 02:38:49 ??rcfiles 02:38:50 I don't have a page labeled rcfiles in my learndb. 02:38:51 ??rcfile 02:38:51 rcfile[1/3]: Accessible via www: CAO: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rcfiles/crawl-{0.7|0.8|0.9|0.10|git|lorcs}/$name.rc CDO: http://crawl.develz.org/configs/{ancient|0.6|0.7|0.8|0.9|0.10|trunk}/$name.rc CSZO: http://dobrazupa.org/rcfiles/crawl-{0.10|0.11|git}/$name.rc 02:38:54 hth 02:39:49 !tell amethyst never mind, I see them now :) 02:39:50 elliptic: OK, I'll let amethyst know. 02:40:00 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 02:40:05 it would be cool if the tournament used cszo configs for team stuff, since you can edit your config via the web interface, and it's used for console 02:40:09 elliott: thanks, I don't suppose you know about CSN too? 02:40:25 evilmike: the plan is to let people edit whichever rcfile they want 02:40:59 elliptic: not sure about CSN 02:41:02 already last tourney I set things up so that people could use either CAO or CDO rcfiles, so this is just continuing that 02:41:03 is this "web interface" a tiles thing? 02:41:06 elliptic: iirc CSN doesn't even have dumps or something? just morgues 02:41:17 it has dumps 02:41:23 hm 02:41:24 ok then 02:41:55 elliott: http://crawlus.somatika.net/dumps/qwqw/qwqw.txt 02:41:59 absolutego: I'm talking about editing your config via the webtiles thing, yeah 02:42:15 for most people its easier than editing it via console 02:42:41 absolutego: although, you can play webtiles with ascii characters... it looks weird 02:43:41 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:43:46 mmm someone should create all the robins on cszo :p 02:44:03 cdo has the same web interface, no? 02:44:24 cdo webtiles configs were different from cdo console configs, last time I used it 02:44:26 my pro url guessing skills are failing me on csn 02:44:30 yes, that editor looks pretty decent 02:44:50 way better than messing with putty for most folks 02:44:50 evilmike: pretty sure they aren't different 02:44:56 assuming you are playing the same version, that is 02:45:08 hmm, I guess it's just the version thing yeah 02:47:15 possibly they were separate in 0.9 03:01:18 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:05:36 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:51 -!- MPR| has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:10:12 -!- stuffnstuff has quit [Client Quit] 03:12:05 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:39:10 -!- Dixie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:41:38 -!- Dingo has quit [Quit: World in peril] 03:42:20 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:47:03 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 03:47:13 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 03:54:01 evilmike: both Lava Orcs and Djinn have an extreme fire bias, so rebalancing current races to improve their fire apt might be somewhat short-sighted 03:54:47 yeah, I was thinking about lava orcs when I mentioned that 03:54:49 dpeg_: I reverted that ?MM behind secret doors change you lobbied for so much! Hah! 03:54:57 (as an aside, ice magic is in the same situation) 03:55:17 for the Djinn, I ponder even giving them an innate ring of fire 03:55:47 precedent: mummies with up to +2 Necro enhancement 03:55:55 I just find it a little wierd how you can choose races that have +2 or even +3 air/earth, but fire/ice only go to +1. For now, that's just an observation 03:56:12 Mf have great Ice, VP have it good too 03:56:22 I think Mf only have +1 ice? 03:56:24 !apt mf 03:56:24 Mf: Air: -2, Armour: -3, Axes: -2, Bows: -2, Charms: 1, Conj: -2, Xbows: -2, Dodge: 3, Earth: -2, Evo: 0, Exp: 120, Fighting: 1, Fire: -3*, Hexes: 0, HP: 0, Ice: 1, Inv: 0, Long: 1, Maces: -2, MP: 0, Nec: -2, Poison: 1, Polearms: 4!, Shields: 0, Short: 2, Slings: -2, Splcast: 0, Stab: 2, Staves: -2, Stealth: 1, Summ: 0, Throw: 0, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 3!, Traps: -1, Unarmed: 1! 03:56:42 wasn't it higher? 03:57:03 hmm... I dunno. I can remember a few merfolk nerfs, but not to their magic 03:58:00 !apt vp 03:58:00 Vp: Air: 0, Armour: -2, Axes: -1, Bows: -2, Charms: 1, Conj: -3*, Xbows: -2, Dodge: 1, Earth: 0, Evo: -1, Exp: 150, Fighting: -1, Fire: -2, Hexes: 4!, HP: 0, Ice: 0, Inv: -2, Long: 0, Maces: -2, MP: 0, Nec: 1, Poison: -1, Polearms: -1, Shields: -1, Short: 1, Slings: -2, Splcast: 0, Stab: 1, Staves: -2, Stealth: 4, Summ: 0, Throw: -2, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 1, Traps: 0, Unarmed: 1! 03:59:10 -!- Jude has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:59:30 -2 Fire to 0 Ice, their base apt is bad 03:59:45 sort of like Dg 04:03:05 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:03:24 Mf had 80 Ice aptitude in 0.4 04:03:52 -!- SkaryMonk has left ##crawl-dev 04:03:56 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:05:19 hmm, an innate fire enchancer sounds like it would be strong. mummies get an enchancer, but a lot of spells are locked to them... I find the biggest effect is that it boosts agony 04:05:33 although, I do understand that Djinn are actually made of fire 04:15:29 -!- NeremWorld has joined ##crawl-dev 04:17:50 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:17:59 -!- G-Flex has quit [] 04:19:21 -!- Nerem has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:21:31 -!- sab0t has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:22:58 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:24:43 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:28:23 -!- evilmike has quit [] 04:29:09 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:29:59 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:21 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34:50 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:15 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:47:02 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:31 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:57:30 -!- YevgenyNourish has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:59:42 -!- wasd22 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:00:24 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:35 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:08 kilobyte: well, no secret doors, no special functionality of ?MM. Even I understand that. :) 05:07:24 -!- kwel01 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:10:15 -!- unknownuser_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:11:06 will magic mapping map behind runed doors? :p 05:14:55 -!- chaaar has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:19:14 elliott: hush, don't give him bad ideas :p 05:20:01 (actually, that's a good question... but since only vaults are going to have runed doors, it'd be a matter of spoilage 05:20:15 I think there are two thinks that would make me really upset, and neither of them is about scrolls: removing a god, and bringing MD back. 05:20:39 -!- CaptainPickles has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:21:11 * kilobyte remembers someone lobbying for removing rather than fixing Okawaru. 05:21:42 but I also had Okawaru plans in the pocket: stick and carrot -- and I didn't say I'm very symmetric =) 05:23:35 -!- DracoOmega has quit [] 05:23:45 imo they should map because you can just look up the vault, yes 05:24:12 in an ideal world vaults would come pre-mapped or something (but cTele considerations and weirdness and randomness in vaults and...) 05:24:18 Regarding players looking up vaults: ideally, every fancy vault should have several versions, so that looking up what you can see from the outside does not tell you what's inside. 05:26:41 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:27:04 for Okawaru, I'm quite happy with the idea of a god of fighting uniques/OODs. This part needs to be polished, but let's see how he fares during the tourney. 05:28:28 I think permanent gifts are actually a good part of his design (remember, the game itself is of a finite length), and it's invoked abilities that are a more boring part 05:29:09 kilobyte: okay. I hope I can sneak in my idea of borrowed gifts (where you have to do Stuff in order to make them permanent) somewhere. 05:31:44 I have doubts there are good ways to do so: there are two major avenues: a) guarantee you'll get the gift with enough work, b) randomly losing it (like, by the requirement to kill something hard before it expires) 05:32:20 b) would also result in degenerate play, like stashing an unique 05:33:39 dangling a toy just to tell the player he won't get it after all (because the RNG decided that no appropriate threat comes soon enough) is demoralizing. 05:33:52 kilobyte: I am not sure. Even with the possibility to make the gift permanent, temporary could be interesting. This is obvious with books (heck, I should have proposed that one to start with), but even with weapons/armours: if you get a really good weapon and you know it's for 3000 turns, well, let's apply it efficiently. 05:34:07 -!- lorenz371 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:34:34 a) on the other hand would make dubious gifts even less used 05:34:47 I understand the point about morale, but that could be dealth with bounty-style: Explicitly announce "Do Foo", and players know the deal. 05:35:15 None of this is crucial but I think the current shower of permanent gifts leaves a lot of awesome potential untouched. 05:35:17 bounties would be more fitting for a new god 05:35:23 kilobyte: that may very well be. 05:35:30 hmm, ?oMM behind secret doors? that sounds like a nethackism. how could that slip through? 05:35:35 like that Inglip idea, of random nonsensical missions 05:36:15 bhaak: ?teleport in closets is one of the less offending blunders Nethack has to offer. 05:36:52 got to go, we can talk later 05:37:14 i wonder where that came from. it's not really an obvious thing to put into your game 05:37:15 later! 05:37:34 bhaak: this is true. You know which version had them first? 05:37:47 *first had them, fucking English/German sentence structures 05:38:25 hack 1.0 didn't, hack-1.0.3 already did 05:38:34 Brouwer? 05:38:49 yes 05:38:55 1985 05:43:39 Cant chop first corpse on floor with key+mouse (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6138) by verminar 05:47:06 -!- Adeon has quit [Quit: poks] 05:48:57 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 05:51:44 dpeg_: re: looking up vaults & several versions, subvaults are a good way to add variations - I did so with some Volcano subvaults 05:52:15 I should check if the bug which prevented me from adding them to volcano_lake (IIRC) has fixed itself.. or even try debugging it :P 05:55:03 -!- MPR has quit [Changing host] 05:57:28 Keskitalo: yes, absolutely. Also hi! 06:02:17 -!- barbs has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:08:28 about runed doors, I like the idea that autoexplore simply doesn't open them and that you have to manually open them 06:08:37 safe and no annoying prompt 06:09:03 it might be a bit disconcerting for players at first, but they'll learn quickly 06:10:03 list unopened runed doors on Ctrl-O? 06:10:07 if some absolutely wants a prompt, I'd rather give them an option for a prompt for openning rather than an option for autoexcluding 06:10:41 dpeg_: yeah, might be good to list them on ^o 06:10:55 could also have a key to jump to it in map mode 06:11:27 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:11:38 Should list them on Ctrl-O (one line for "runed doors") and on top line of X. Also, "o" should say "cannot explore further (runed doors)" 06:11:43 with those, no prompt necessary 06:11:56 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 06:11:58 I agree 06:12:51 in principle, they are like a travel exclusion, only that you don't have to manually erase, but to manually open the door 06:13:39 yes, true 06:15:41 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 06:22:15 -!- buki has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:27 -!- Senjai has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:30:33 does anyone know offhand how to cite Mantis forum threads in the dev wiki syntax? 06:33:56 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 06:36:12 -!- HellTiger has quit [*.net *.split] 06:36:12 -!- scummos has quit [*.net *.split] 06:37:00 -!- MPR has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:42:36 -!- voker57 has quit [Changing host] 06:52:44 -!- voker57 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55:49 mantis or tavern? 06:56:09 there's [[Mantis>xxxx]] for mantis issues 06:56:20 there is no shortcut for tavern thread AFAIK 06:57:07 ah, thank oyu 06:59:44 -!- MPR has quit [Changing host] 07:01:17 -!- kryft has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:18 wow, the dev wiki is being used 07:02:52 lets hope the general tavern population doesnt notice :) 07:02:55 (i am a bad person) 07:03:36 -!- CIA-129 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:04:10 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:06:05 !tell evilmike Many thanks for Curses page! I updated my section, perhaps you can have a look at it. 07:06:06 dpeg_: OK, I'll let evilmike know. 07:06:48 dpeg_: have you retired from your retirement? 07:07:00 alefury: I am a bit worried that misguided^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmischievous^H^H^H^H^H^Hhapless players wreak havoc of my random gods pages. 07:07:46 galehar: no no, I am just a spry pensioner interested in gods. 07:07:57 yeah sure 07:08:02 I think you have ;) 07:08:27 you're here every day discussing stuff, you're creating wiki pages... 07:09:00 galehar: the thing is, I cannot promise to be resilient enough to do *actual* work like testing and checking in vaults, updating documentation etc. 07:09:12 * dpeg_ has to admit he got bitten by the design bug. 07:09:23 "Just one more god!" 07:09:44 none of the active devs have promised to be resilient. Most aren't :) 07:10:03 oh, re resilience 07:10:04 *haven't 07:10:22 oh, the negation was already there... 07:10:38 * dpeg_ gifts galehar a book about Aristotelian logic. 07:10:50 !tell evilmike Any chance of another ##crawl-dev digest? I found them very useful even though I actually read ##crawl-dev, and they can only be more useful for the people who dont. 07:10:51 alefury: OK, I'll let evilmike know. 07:10:58 * galehar throw the book in the fire with the others 07:11:09 -!- YevgenyNourish has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:11:16 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:11:19 +1 <3 07:11:23 -!- Fhqwhgads_ is now known as Fhqwhgads 07:11:41 alefury: yes, jpeg loved them too. I think those are really awesome especially for more distance developers. 07:12:10 im sure they are also really a lot of work, ##crawl-dev logs get very long :/ 07:12:36 absolutely, that's why I didn't ask evilmike about another one, unlike some more insensitive regulars =) 07:12:40 i just hope evilmike finds the time and motivation :) 07:14:07 If Crawl was more professional (which thankfully it isn't), those digests would be a good think to do in turns. alefury:10/2012, dpeg:11/2012 etc. 07:15:07 s/think/thing/ grrr 07:16:06 And even if there'll be no further digest whatsoever, they served a purpose: I know now where to pick up with the demigods (they just need content, and I can probably do that). 07:16:27 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:16:41 well, maybe the time required isn't worth it. Especially when that time could be invested into coding or reviewing vaults 07:16:50 so the digest should be done by non-devs ;) 07:16:51 -!- CIA-45 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:17:17 -!- CIA-69 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:17:18 galehar: yes, that would be another option. Also a good reason to add another colour to the forum nicks. 07:17:47 -!- Syrio has quit [Client Quit] 07:18:06 Yes, we have only 4 colours. It means still 23 to go. 07:32:21 -!- Palyth_ is now known as Palyth 07:32:27 -!- CIA-58 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:00 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:36:41 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 07:46:18 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:46:46 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:34 why exactly butterflies are on 'b' with birds? They are just recoloured moths (in RL). 07:48:49 (moths aren't recoloured butterflies in real life - moths are swing-wing and butterfly are fold-wing) 07:50:40 "b" is "batty", obviously 07:51:03 unseen horrors should be magenta b 07:51:28 barpies 07:51:49 moth-glyphed butterflies would be scary 07:52:01 but realistic 07:52:20 IMO do it, put butterflies on y just to scare people to death 07:52:46 april fools prank: all the walls are cerebov???? 07:52:58 no they're walls . they just look like cerebov 07:53:02 in terminal brogue all the plants are panlords 07:57:00 does terminal brogue exist? 07:57:57 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:59:45 barely 07:59:47 but yes 07:59:57 hope you don't mind hugeterm 08:01:17 well i'd expect it in this case 08:01:28 where can i find it? the site does not help 08:02:10 the scariest part is it comes with brogue 08:02:21 you may already have it 08:03:25 Moth colored butterflies sounds like the perfgect setup for a vault. 08:03:38 30 butterflies with a bunch of moths amongs them. 08:03:42 eeeeexcellent. 08:04:09 already done :P 08:04:10 it's like when you could detect mimics by looking at items 08:04:25 well, somewhat 08:05:10 someday I will finally see somebody a conniption over hangedman_xom_zot_hilarity 08:05:16 -!- CIA-58 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:05:55 we could have y-glyph zot floors 08:06:00 with butterflies 08:06:09 monqy: i do not see it, do you have to build it? 08:06:53 by running it with -t 08:07:57 -!- CIA-58 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:27 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:08:28 monqy: ooooooh! 08:08:34 so... cute 08:08:46 i had no idea this was a thing 08:11:50 absolutego: press \ and it becomes slightly more tolerable 08:11:55 because it stops trying to shade all 15 colours 08:12:09 but it's... still inferior to just playing brogue normally 08:13:27 people play brogue? 08:13:53 yes 08:14:38 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 08:14:59 It's so shiny! 08:15:21 but that's why people play it (I hope) 08:16:28 Yes I like that. 08:16:39 One of these days I'll devote a proper amount of time to playing it to see what the attraction is 08:16:47 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:16:47 -!- CIA-96 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:16:52 the few times I've played it have felt like I've had no real control over the game 08:17:13 did you hit the autopilot button 08:17:15 (that'd do it) 08:17:37 -!- CIA-58 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:17:40 fr official autorobin 08:19:53 braverobin > autorobin 08:21:20 -!- _159 has quit [Client Quit] 08:21:23 phyphor: it's a very tactical, fun, well-polished and short game, what's not to like? 08:21:38 elliott: I don't get the tactics 08:21:47 it feels like "get lucky" is the main one 08:21:51 hence me needing to spend time playing it 08:22:26 clearly the infinite machines in 1.6.4 means everybody gets lucky :P 08:22:30 phyphor: well you don't get absolute control in that you have to build your character around what you get -- but that's why you get choices (loot vaults, scrolls of enchantment)... the tactics are mainly taking advantage of your items and your environment (the obvious one is chokepoints, but you can also exploit traps to your benefits, water, lava, etc.) 08:22:41 but yes 08:23:07 I dont' get far enough to get anywhere 08:23:18 it seems like I'm missing a fundamental part of the game 08:24:27 maybe you're not playing the identification game effectively? it takes a little while to get the hang of it (and centres around controlled use-identification), that's a blocker for getting past the early game 08:24:57 i like setting things on fire 08:25:04 (also in brogue) 08:25:35 also, re identification game, <3 detect magic 08:26:53 detect magic is one of the worst aspects of Brogue, imo 08:26:59 it encourages hauling which is no fun 08:27:21 when can we steal brogue explosions and make swamp dragons not so harmless for a swamp:5 enemy by making them breathe explosive gas and then pairing them with fire drakes 08:28:20 HangedMan: this is a part where Brogue shines 08:28:31 quite 08:29:11 hauling is quite hard to exploit really heavily in brogue I think, since the inventory is so limited... detect magic would be interesting even if it just worked on the level, though (for loot vaults and the like) 08:29:23 -!- CIA-64 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:57 elliott: the limited inventory is part of the problem... and hauling is possible. It's more important before your first !DM. 08:30:52 Biskup got $90k. I wonder if ADOMv2 will live up to expectations. 08:31:05 kids now, back later 08:32:38 well, i think detect magic having a powerful effect both on inventory identification and on the level is cool 08:32:43 the hauling thing sucks of course 08:35:56 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37:10 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:39:29 -!- MPR has quit [] 08:46:42 -!- MPR has quit [Changing host] 08:46:45 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 08:46:46 ??test 08:46:47 summon butterflies[4/5]: 12Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 9Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 4Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 8Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 11Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ7 Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 6Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ6 10Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 08:49:50 -!- Camicio1000 has quit [] 08:59:39 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:03:04 -!- ttghbbgeww has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:05:48 Wensley: better!# 09:07:24 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:06 dpeg_: I haven't changed anything recently, I sure hope it's not better! :) 09:09:27 ah right, different machine, different (and better) console 09:10:35 holy fuckballs 09:10:44 someone using non ascii in IRC :( 09:11:39 my terminal does utf-8, yet all I see is squares. Maybe irsii is messing it up 09:11:46 -!- Wah has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:11:46 usually I see unicode just fine 09:12:08 <|amethyst> probably characters that aren't in your font 09:12:14 <|amethyst> I use irssi as well 09:12:21 <|amethyst> (and it looks fine) 09:12:58 galehar: I use irssi, the butterflies are fine 09:14:31 well, I guess it's the font then 09:16:12 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:09 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:25:29 -!- Tally has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:35:03 dpeg_: feedbacked on curses 09:35:18 tldr: i prefer evilmike's version 09:40:17 -!- ZRN has quit [] 09:52:37 Enter the Zot Realm: 36 Orb Chambers (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6139) by nicolae 09:52:50 -!- tJener has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:53:02 -!- kober has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 09:53:20 -!- wjchen has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:57:21 -!- vwzzz has quit [] 09:57:29 alefury: of course 09:58:34 alefury: You might have missed some points. :| 09:59:05 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:59:15 feel free to point them out 09:59:51 The curse effect would be constant with time. 10:00:40 Scrolls should provide tier 0, early mummies tier 1 (that's not as explicite as it should be, though). But now: lego 10:01:07 <3 lego 10:03:04 while some of the layout tricks are a little neat I don't think gimmickry like all player species or moth display or a door vault for what is a very simple and functional type of vault as one of the last things a player might see in the game 10:03:30 ...errrr, that said gimmickry is ever much of a good idea 10:04:14 huhwaht? im not sure yet, but i think there is some wrong grammar in that sentence? 10:04:16 would much rather have just some randomization in the orb chambers themselves (and lots of lines compressed into one function) then most of this, really 10:04:24 also, context? 10:04:42 the 36 orb chamber vaults mantis issue from a few minutes ago 10:04:44 <|amethyst> 10:50:11 < Cheibriados> Enter the Zot Realm: 36 Orb Chambers (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6139) by nicolae 10:05:58 !tell dpeg I know the effect would be constant with time, but how much duration is left would often be relevant (and in a bad way, too). For example I think further encouraging people to put off a branch end and do an easy area first to let their curse effects run out would make an existing problem worse. This also applies to vaults, uniques, or other difficult areas in a less predictable way. 10:05:59 Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys! 10:06:06 bah 10:07:05 <|amethyst> orb_nicolae_simplicity 10:07:08 !tell dpeg I know the effect would be constant with time, but how much duration is left would often be relevant in a bad way. For example I think further encouraging people to put off difficult encounters like branch ends, vaults and uniques and do an easy area first to let their curse effects run out would only make an existing problem worse. 10:07:08 Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys! 10:07:12 <|amethyst> can't this one be shattered/LRDed into? 10:07:34 <|amethyst> not quite into, you'd come out in one of the deeper lobes 10:07:41 oh screw this, ill poke dpeg to read the scrollback or something 10:07:43 <|amethyst> but you could skip an entire lobe it seems 10:08:40 well, you can already get close to lobe skipping with the original, and being loud in zot:5 isn't the best of scenarios 10:09:15 <|amethyst> HangedMan: ah, you're right; I see the subvault is lined with 'c' not 'X' 10:09:26 id love some gimmicky orb chanbers, as long as they are rare and the gimmicks dont distract from the function 10:10:28 <|amethyst> I'm also not sure about the point of orb_nicolae_checkpoint 10:10:36 <|amethyst> why would you ever go into the north part? 10:11:25 <|amethyst> some of these have lots of Zs btw 10:12:45 <|amethyst> oh, I was misreading some zs as Zs 10:13:01 <|amethyst> well, hall_of_orbs does 10:13:21 <|amethyst> and capillaries and forbidding_blocks 10:14:19 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 10:17:30 I think zot:5 is the only place in the game where I do not desire massive replayability, or variance, and especially gimmick vaults 10:17:59 the current set of vaults we have already bother me in their inconsistancies 10:21:06 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:25:08 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:31:11 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:36:33 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 10:38:52 I'd prefer just going back to having a completely fixed orb vault, honestly 10:39:08 agreed 10:39:36 fr randomly generated orb vault 10:41:30 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:45:26 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:48:11 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 10:48:12 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:51:30 -!- One-Eyed has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:00:23 hm, an always fixed orb vault would make it stand out compared to the rest of the game 11:01:05 otoh you can just map zot:5 11:01:51 alefury: yes, an always fixed orb vault made it feel more special rather than just yet another branch end with multiple vaults 11:02:30 but but... orb mimic! 11:03:15 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:20 could we get a milestone for killing orb mimics? 11:04:16 yess 11:04:37 galehar: nobody said the completely fixed orb vault has to be the classical one (although some people would probably prefer that one) 11:08:18 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:50 this is quite neat, might be useful to include in the crawl help: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:dungeon_map 11:16:59 -!- absoup has quit [Client Quit] 11:17:00 -!- Hijackal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17:08 if letter codes were by the branches, could it work for ?/b ? 11:18:34 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:19:40 elliptic: re orb vault specialness, the lung design is fixed, does the little bit of randomization in the chamber really change the feel of the orb vault that much? 11:20:08 well, fixed except for the little chance for shortcuts 11:20:37 it didn't change the feel when it was just a "little bit of randomization", but some of the orb chambers are quite different now 11:21:01 and those new vaults look even worse 11:21:57 you want teleninjaing to be reliable? :P 11:22:33 not a bad goal imo btw, its good that there are multiple viable zot:5 strategies 11:22:34 this isn't about teleninjaing, though actually most of the new vaults are easier to teleninja if you lack apportation 11:23:09 just fighting through normally you notice the difference, most of the new orb chambers don't have the same deadly X density 11:23:36 so its not as much a problem with randomization but with quality? 11:23:46 so many walls, Xs are split up... some of them don't even have the same number of of Xs 11:24:33 how about introducing a bug that doubles X again? sounds fine to me 11:24:44 alefury: basically I wouldn't mind slight randomization (of the sort that already exists in the lungs) with occasional minor differences that don't change the feel 11:24:51 back for a bit 11:25:16 alefury: yes, read it. Thanks for comments. But you also know that "time" really means xp? 11:25:28 of course 11:25:41 like, putting in a few walls/statues in the classical orb chamber, changing the shape slightly to be less rounded, whatever 11:26:03 alefury already linked to the map. I like it, and if coloured properly, it would look very beautiful. 11:26:22 but splitting up the orb chamber into multiple rooms and scattering the orb guardians around really affects the feel of it, regardless of what strategy you are using 11:26:45 for one thing, in the classic orb chamber all of the Xs are actually near the orb 11:27:03 * dpeg_ wants spectators behind glass in the orb chamber sometimes 11:27:08 is that a problem, as long as its interesting and there is a consistent difficulty level? 11:27:14 rarely, one choice would be: imp 11:27:17 i mean the different feel 11:28:05 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 11:28:12 alefury: we will have the same issues (how to work down something the game throws against you) with wraths. I am not sure that skipping branches will work: the xp to work down wrath has to come from somewhere. 11:28:45 dpeg_: curses would be much shorter duration than most wraths i think? 11:29:03 alefury: there isn't anything close to a consistent difficulty level though 11:29:20 see the discussion about short vs long wraths for how that would affect viability of waiting it out 11:29:28 "waiting" 11:29:38 and the easiest way to get a consistent difficulty level is to keep the same feel and just change minor details 11:29:57 sure, i just dont know if the easiest way is the best way in this case 11:30:20 you already got different feel, couldnt you try and edit the vaults to bring the difficulty in line? 11:30:43 -!- Chozo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:05 I could delete all the ones that have ridiculous numbers of walls, yes 11:31:15 otoh im really not sure if having only one style wouldnt be better after all, so, whatever 11:31:23 regarding Zot:5, I agree with elliptic -- minor alterations are welcome, including wacky ones, nothing more 11:31:44 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 11:32:01 !seen evilmike 11:32:01 I last saw evilmike at Fri Aug 31 09:28:23 2012 UTC (7h 3m 38s ago) quitting without a message. 11:32:11 three hours until he'll appear 11:32:22 some of the current vaults I think would be okay if they just had more guardians 11:32:35 i admit that i kind of liked the increased tactical flexibility from varied terrain when i had an orb chamber with some walls 11:32:53 it had some thick diagonal transparent wall thingies 11:33:07 like, orb_monky_inset has only 7 guardians (normal is 12) 11:33:08 it did feel a bit weird though 11:33:11 orb_monky_twist? 11:34:10 yes i think so 11:34:42 orb_monky_twist has more serious issue (the glass seems to confuse the Xs sometimes, they get stuck in the center) 11:35:19 eww 11:35:36 -!- Cheibrodos has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:35:46 mrperson_orb_statues might be okay with a few more orb guardians near the entrances as well 11:36:56 and I think orb_monky_within_orb is fine as is 11:37:39 elliptic: how important is it for you that ninjaing is easier or harder? 11:37:40 for the others, I really don't like orb_nicolae_fourfold and orb_grunt_hallway... the long corridors really mess with the vault 11:37:42 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 11:39:13 dpeg_: not really important at all... ninjaing is going to be a plausible option pretty much regardless. I'm thinking about this more from the perspective of characters who are slowly killing everything 11:39:51 the original vault is good for sending several Xs at you at once, and also for having monsters sometimes come over from the opposite lung 11:40:08 elliptic: sounds good! 11:40:43 whereas with stuff like orb_grunt_hallway or orb_nicolae_fourfold you have to work a lot to have to fight more than 1-2 at a time 11:41:02 what about stuff like orb_two_ways? 11:41:59 its tactically quite different from the standard chamber, but probably a lot easier 11:43:28 should definitely have more guardians, not less? if its worth keeping at all? 11:43:45 about the two orb mimic vaults (orb_two_ways and orb_nicolae_swirls)... I don't like the idea that much in general (if you aren't ninjaing then these vaults are not interesting at all) 11:45:37 werent pillars added to the original orb chamber at some point? to make apporting a little harder? 11:45:44 that said I also like orb_nicolae_swirls better than orb_two_ways, since it is more open... and possibly with minor changes I'd be fully happy with that one 11:46:08 alefury: yeah, right next to the orb... either glass or statues, I think both were tried 11:46:34 that's the sort of minor variation I like (or there could also be more cosmetic changes) 11:46:52 are they gone? or am i just blind/suck at reading vault definitions? 11:47:12 it were statues i think 11:47:25 i thought the one with the transparent swirls was what the original had become 11:47:35 -!- naalis has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 11:47:54 at some point there were just single tile pillars of some kind next to the orb, i think statues 11:48:15 i hear the pillars didn't actually stop you apporting or something 11:48:17 %git f907d067 11:48:18 due * 0.8.0-a0-4712-gf907d06: Declutter the original Orb chamber. (1 year, 7 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 8-) https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/f907d067805d 11:48:27 aww 11:48:54 i liked them :/ 11:49:37 they had nice tiles too 11:49:44 that was the commit removing the pillars, with the explanation that they weren't necessary because we nerfed orb apportation 11:50:32 yeah, i read the message. 11:51:50 btw, why isnt there a zot zig level? 11:52:00 there is a drac zig level 11:52:20 and people decided that putting "orb guardian" in a zig would be strange 11:52:22 yes, and orbs of fire are on fire levels, electric golems on electric levels 11:52:33 dragons on dragon levels 11:52:49 aliches on vaults levels 11:52:51 . o O ( moths of wrath on moth levels ) 11:53:00 you mean orc levels 11:53:06 some zot-only monsters arent in zigs, like klowns and cobs 11:53:19 HangedMan: shhh 11:53:20 less fun 11:53:24 mixing those together to make a zot level would be okay, but it would be sort of lame without orb guardians IMO 11:53:33 I guess klowns would be sort of cool 11:53:34 yeah, true 11:53:39 hm, while we're at zigs: could one of you help me with the zig Pan battle floor? 11:53:40 HangedMan: especially with moths of suppression! 11:54:04 battle floor? 11:54:13 the problem just slightly being that berserk ghost moths still would not get very close to killing the average zig runner so 11:54:29 <|amethyst> even if they're suppressed? 11:54:36 HangedMan: there'd be lots and lots of moths 11:54:39 HangedMan: actually, ghost moths are terrible terrible mosnters 11:54:41 lots and lots and lots 11:55:20 elliott: would rather not overlplay it in general, for what little that's worth 11:55:31 suppression + no mana + occasional berserk (no clarity)? i cant imagine the horrors of such a level. 11:55:44 probably to horrible even for a zig 11:55:49 these sound great 11:55:52 why don't they already exist 11:55:59 supmoth doesnt exist 11:56:02 or rather, doesnt work 11:56:09 <|amethyst> it works but is disabled 11:56:22 but fixedarts are missing? 11:56:25 <|amethyst> only problems are with some unrands and with (some?) monster effects 11:56:25 ??supmoth 11:56:26 I don't have a page labeled supmoth in my learndb. 11:56:31 <|amethyst> s/unrands/fixedarts/ 11:56:42 <|amethyst> I want to say that some fixedarts are handled, but I may be misremembering 11:56:47 <|amethyst> bug Wensley about it 11:56:48 oh right, monster suppression was another bullet point on the list 11:56:54 elliptic: really small (so small you cannot use storms, think 3x9), with you on one end, Pan lord(s) on the other; around it is glass and beyond is the scenery, full of imps etc who would get special cheering speech: "Get the merfolk down!" 11:57:03 <|amethyst> ??supmoth todo 11:57:03 I don't have a page labeled supmoth_todo in my learndb. 11:57:10 ??suppresion[3] 11:57:10 I don't have a page labeled suppresion[3] in my learndb. 11:57:11 <|amethyst> what was that entry called? 11:57:34 ??suppression 11:57:34 suppression[1/5]: While under this effect, all of your magical items are reduced to their mundane counterparts. Magical staves act as nonmagical lengths of wood; magical swords act as nonmagical (but sharp!) hunks of metal; magical armors act as nonmagical strips of leather and hide. 11:57:38 ??suppression[3] 11:57:38 suppression[3/5]: TODO: suppress\/defer equip messages; handle fixedarts; needs to affect monsters too; whether or not enchant pluses are affected; art-func.h 11:57:43 elliott: i think such a level would not be that interesting. too limited tactically. no mana + no egos =boring, probably 11:57:43 ??suppression[5] 11:57:43 suppression[5/5]: Not done: mace of var, scythe of curses, sing sword, sword of power, zonguldruk, wyrmbane, brilliance, robe of clouds, lantern of shadows 11:57:57 <|amethyst> !learn edit suppression[3] s@\\@@ 11:57:57 No change because the regex failed to match. 11:58:04 <|amethyst> !learn edit suppression[3] s@./@/@ 11:58:05 suppression[3/5]: TODO: suppress/defer equip messages; handle fixedarts; needs to affect monsters too; whether or not enchant pluses are affected; art-func.h 11:58:07 alefury: dealing with the berserk waves sounds like it could be interesting 11:58:14 ok how about we made it a moth and eyeball floor instead so you also get paralysed :P 11:58:44 in general it is still nothing but support monsters (also eyeballs overlaps with slime and pan) 11:59:06 <|amethyst> add one panlord :) 11:59:11 even berserk ghost moths would be ignorable with good enough non-enchantment ac 11:59:40 did they get nerfed again? 11:59:42 No love for the crowds of imps spectating a deathmatch :| 11:59:43 ghost moth (06y) | Spd: 12 | HD: 13 | HP: 49-90 | AC/EV: 8/10 | Dam: 1805(drain dexterity), 1805(drain strength), 1208(nasty poison) | fly | Res: 06magic(104), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 2288 | Sz: Large | Int: insect. 11:59:43 %??ghost moth 12:00:08 dpeg_: sounds cool, but wouldnt fit with the floor size progression? 12:00:27 HangedMan: yes well nothing but support monsters is the idea :P 12:00:30 maybe it would not work well though, idk 12:00:45 alefury: why? The whole floor is there, it's only divided into small arena and other part (full of the spectators). 12:00:47 <|amethyst> easy enough to test it yourself :) 12:00:50 HangedMan: but you'd also get berserked yourself, so more importantly it'd be a bunch of berserk moths against suppressed *slowed* you 12:01:00 would much rather see improvements to current stuff (forest, earth, snake, crypt, abyss) over other waves 12:01:07 except people have haste. clearly you have to remove haste first... 12:01:12 * elliott gives up :) 12:01:15 actually being berserked by a moth of wrath is rather rare 12:01:22 dpeg_: how do you get in and out of the arena? 12:01:24 well, not that rare when you have a floor full of the 12:01:25 m 12:01:36 alefury: < to the left, > to the right of arena :) 12:01:43 loot in a single pile 12:01:50 <|amethyst> think of it as a reverse panopticon 12:02:00 ah 12:02:01 <|amethyst> FR: "Bentham" unique 12:02:06 back later, piano lessons next 12:02:07 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 12:02:14 level within a level 12:02:15 <|amethyst> giving or taking? 12:02:16 have fun! 12:02:19 *support for cheering imp floor needed* 12:02:27 dpeg_: it sounds cool, I don't have the vaultmaking skills to help make it myself though 12:02:57 sounds like it would be fairly easy to do for an experienced vaultmaker/lua wizard 12:03:08 needs imp speech, though 12:03:13 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:03:51 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20120421074340]] 12:04:08 needs the "monsters can blink through even perma-glass" bug fixed, probably 12:04:30 <|amethyst> I doubt they'd talk through perma-glass without some fixes 12:04:35 <|amethyst> s/fixes/changes/ 12:05:02 oh, I'm thinking of regular glass 12:05:12 -!- CIA-64 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:05:21 <|amethyst> s/perma-// on mine, too 12:05:47 -!- elliott has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:06 0.12-a0-247-g4af09d8, easily replicable in wizlab_golubria with the blink frogs 12:07:53 -!- CIA-8 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:10:12 maybe it's af_blink? 12:10:44 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 12:15:09 -!- wjchen has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:39 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:18:16 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:18:36 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:19:39 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:24:56 -!- CIA-101 has quit [] 12:30:53 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:36:20 -!- Rewans has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:37:12 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 12:38:51 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:39:01 -!- CIA-91 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:39:27 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:39:36 -!- CIA-8 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:51:40 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:53:00 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:55:26 fsim versus killer klown crashes. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6140) by neil 12:57:28 <|amethyst> hm, it's to do with the AF_BLINK 12:57:28 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:58:05 <|amethyst> also happens with blink frogs, aha 13:01:23 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:58 -!- voker57 has quit [Changing host] 13:07:32 -!- wasd22 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:07:34 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:15 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:20 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:08:54 <|amethyst> weird, &fyak seems to fight a yaktaur 13:09:03 <|amethyst> or, at least, there's a crossbow left lying about 13:10:31 <|amethyst> that's not supposed to happen, is it? 13:11:10 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:50 -!- link_108 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:21 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:42 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:03 -!- Nilsyn has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:24:58 -!- CIA-65 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25:17 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 13:32:06 03|amethyst * rbcb1e54b7443 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-fsim.cc: Dismiss the monster if fsim is cancelled. 13:32:10 03|amethyst * r678892b08fae 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-fsim.cc: Make fsim monsters MF_HARD_RESET. 13:32:14 -!- domi is now known as domi_ 13:32:25 <|amethyst> (CIA missed the commit that fixes 6140) 13:33:47 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:59 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:33 -!- voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:37:08 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:39:42 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:40:17 -!- CIA-65 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:42:08 -!- Roarke has quit [Client Quit] 13:42:10 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:24 -!- eb is now known as ebarrett 13:46:50 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:19 -!- pointsofdata has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:48:24 -!- pointsofdata_ is now known as pointsofdata 13:50:13 -!- RollieTG has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0/20120824154833]] 13:51:21 Napkin: @dump isn't working for 0.11 games, it looks like it needs 0.11 added to GAME_WEB_MAPPINGS (line 644) 13:51:48 oh, true 13:53:20 Use of uninitialized value in string ne at ./gretell.pl line 739, <$handle> 13:53:24 being spammed by that 13:53:25 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:36 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 13:53:52 @dump hyperelliptic 13:53:53 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.11/hyperelliptic/hyperelliptic.txt 13:54:01 thanks :) 13:55:02 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:56:01 elliptic? 13:56:07 -!- CampinSam has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56:18 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:56:23 can "ltyp" be empty? 13:57:41 <|amethyst> Napkin: I have a fix for that 13:57:42 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:57:48 <|amethyst> Napkin: moment 13:57:58 i was just about to add a defined() check in front of that 13:58:03 Napkin: it looks like the "ltyp" field was removed so it will always be empty now, yeah 13:58:05 you have something else in mind? 13:58:11 oh 13:58:20 <|amethyst> oh 13:58:29 <|amethyst> my fix was exists instead of defined, but yeah 13:58:39 <|amethyst> well, remember old versions 13:58:55 <|amethyst> 0.10, specifically, still has ltyp I bet 13:59:14 yeah, this was a portal_branches change, so 0.11 13:59:30 is there something else now? 13:59:44 or is dungeon position not logged anymore? 14:01:33 |amethyst: 14:01:33 print "Value EXISTS, but may be undefined.\n" if exists $hash{ $key }; 14:01:34 print "Value is DEFINED, but may be false.\n" if defined $hash{ $key }; 14:01:59 makes me thing you'd better use defined(), too 14:02:03 *think 14:03:13 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:21 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:34 <|amethyst> Napkin: I believe, because of the way demunge_xlogline works, it can't be undef if it's there (it would be "" instead) 14:03:46 <|amethyst> I might be mistaken 14:04:01 <|amethyst> anyway, I haven't gotten any stderr stuff since I made the change 14:04:14 <|amethyst> I think either would be fine (or even use it as a boolean) 14:04:31 ideology, actually 14:04:56 it looks like Gretell was only using ltyp to determine whether to use "in" or "on" for locations 14:05:18 <|amethyst> yeah, which is now done exclusively by the $place =~ /:/ check 14:06:09 <|amethyst> in fact, is that second check even necessary (blade, temple, hell)? 14:06:28 <|amethyst> don't they lack a colon anyway? 14:07:40 yeah 14:10:02 currently I guess Gretell is slightly messed up because $game_ref->{ltyp} ne 'D' is always true? 14:10:34 Kellhus the Insei (L5 DrMo), slain by an orc wizard (a +0,+1 orcish dagger) in D:3, with 410 points after 3341 turns and 0:05:54. 14:11:48 -!- Staplefun has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:11:51 it looks to me like just forgetting about ltyp altogether and changing that code to just check $place !~ ':' might be best 14:12:17 <|amethyst> does that work right with 0.10? 14:12:49 <|amethyst> (also, "in D (Sprint)" is probably wrong, but that's what happens now with both gretell and sizzell) 14:13:08 it should work right with 0.10 if it works with 0.11, since $place hasn't changed 14:13:24 <|amethyst> and gretell appears fixed now 14:13:48 |amethyst: are you sure you aren't just seeing a 0.10 game? 14:14:19 <|amethyst> yes 14:14:30 <|amethyst> 15:06:32 < Gretell> Lorenz the Stinger (L4 NaVM), slain by a crimson imp on D:3, with 173 points after 2988 turns and 0:30:41. 14:14:43 <|amethyst> !lg lorenz navm cdo x=cv 14:14:43 2. [cv=0.11-a] Lorenz the Stinger (L4 NaVM), slain by a crimson imp in D:3 on 2012-08-31, with 173 points after 2988 turns and 0:30:41. 14:14:55 <|amethyst> hm 14:14:58 oh, hey, sequell needs to be fixed too 14:16:18 <|amethyst> not sure if that's a bug, if you mean the 0.11-a thing 14:16:23 <|amethyst> maybe it is 14:16:27 <|amethyst> but v is correct 14:16:34 <|amethyst> !lg lorenz navm cdo x=cv,v 14:16:34 2. [cv=0.11-a;v=0.11-b1] Lorenz the Stinger (L4 NaVM), slain by a crimson imp in D:3 on 2012-08-31, with 173 points after 2988 turns and 0:30:41. 14:16:46 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 14:17:17 |amethyst: I mean the "in D:3" 14:17:22 0.11-a is correct cv 14:17:33 <|amethyst> oh 14:17:37 <|amethyst> I missed that entirely :) 14:17:57 I'm puzzled by how Gretell reported that correctly... maybe Napkin already fixed it? :) 14:18:32 <|amethyst> I believe so 14:18:41 <|amethyst> 15:00:46 ۰۰-- Gretell [crawl@crash.develz.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:45 <|amethyst> 15:00:55 ۰۰-- Gretell [crawl@crash.develz.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 14:19:05 <|amethyst> (the restart for the @dump thing was ten minutes before that) 14:19:25 -!- Yen has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:19:54 -!- Dixie has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:22:41 oh, I guess the ltyp check was affecting Zig locations 14:22:51 since Zig:10 had ltyp=Port 14:23:36 so the question is whether "in Zig:10" or "on Zig:10" is better 14:23:52 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:24:51 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:25:01 <|amethyst> Probably "on" 14:25:14 !lg * place=~: ltyp!=D cv=0.10 s=place 14:25:15 83 games for * (place=~: ltyp!=D cv=0.10): 8x Zig:13, 6x Zig:11, 6x Zig:22, 6x Zig:23, 5x Zig:27, 5x Zig:26, 5x Zig:17, 4x Zig:12, 4x Zig:20, 4x Zig:21, 3x Zig:14, 3x Zig:19, 3x Zig:25, 3x Zig:15, 3x Zig:16, 2x Zig:24, 2x Zig:8, 2x Zig:9, 2x Zig:7, 2x Zig:10, 2x Zig:18, Zig:6, Zig:4, Zig:5 14:25:18 -!- Wenzell has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:25:27 -!- ivan`` has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:25:30 -!- CIA-67 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:25:47 <|amethyst> !lg * place=~: ltyp!=D cv=~0.[2-9] s=place 14:25:50 No games for * (place=~: ltyp!=D cv=~0.[2-9]) 14:25:53 I tend to agree about "on" as well... strange since this code seems to have only had the effect of making it use "in" there 14:26:02 <|amethyst> yeah 14:26:03 !lg * place=~: ltyp!=D cv~~0\.[2-9] s=place 14:26:08 235 games for * (place=~: ltyp!=D cv~~0\.[2-9]): 15x Zig:14, 15x Zig:10, 15x Zig:25, 14x Zig:18, 13x Zig:13, 13x Zig:12, 12x Zig:27, 12x Zig:26, 11x Zig:24, 10x Zig:11, 10x Zig:21, 10x Zig:16, 9x Zig:20, 9x Zig:22, 9x Zig:19, 9x Zig:17, 9x Zig:6, 7x Zig:23, 6x Zig:15, 5x Zig:3, 5x Zig:9, 4x Zig:4, 4x Zig:8, 3x Zig:7, 2x Zig:2, 2x Zig:5, Ziggurat:22, Ziggurat:27 14:26:12 -!- unpaidbi1l has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:26:48 -!- Eronarn has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:26:49 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:26:54 -!- Adeon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:24 -!- djinni_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:30:25 -!- CIA-67 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:13 clouded (L13 DgTm) reached level 4 of the Orcish Mines. (Orc:4) 14:37:13 clouded (L13 DgTm) reached level 4 of the Orcish Mines. (Orc:4) 14:38:31 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 14:38:32 oh, I think I see 14:41:51 Napkin: Gretell is duplicating trunk announcements currently, I believe because 0.9 milestones/logfiles are placed in the same files as trunk (I seem to remember this is how you set things up) 14:42:12 -!- Dixbert is now known as Dixie 14:42:21 Napkin: probably crawl-0.9/saves/milestones is symlinked to crawl-svn/saves/milestones 14:44:57 Napkin: anyway I'm pretty sure that the crawl-0.9 lines that you just added to stonefiles and logfiles shouldn't be there 14:45:51 -!- link_108 has quit [Quit: link_108] 14:47:35 Alarm traps prompt for stepping on them, but don't work when discovered (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6141) by Galefury 14:48:19 -!- CIA-59 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:48:47 edlothiol: isn't it a pity -- you announced a new feature, get a single Thanks, and a number of complaints and demands. 14:52:40 ah, true 14:53:09 i was already wondering why 0.9 wasn't mentioned there? 14:54:37 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:47 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 14:54:54 s/\?// 15:03:20 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 15:03:41 -!- ivan`` has joined ##crawl-dev 15:04:15 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 15:05:22 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 15:06:36 -!- MPR has quit [] 15:07:35 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:49 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:25 I am about to add colours to https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:dungeon_map with the intention of having this map in-game 15:13:30 any objections to that plan? 15:14:44 -!- Deathmic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:15 that's a cool map 15:16:02 i think some things should maybe be shifted around a bit though - "the eleven halls" seems like it goes with the hyphens for the lair 15:16:05 elven* 15:16:06 dpeg_: yeah... I can understand why it's somewhat controversial though; the webtiles chat is used differently (because it's more accessible) than the console one 15:16:32 do you mind if i mess with it a bit? 15:17:11 <|amethyst> 27*3 - 1 is exactly 80, nice 15:17:32 <|amethyst> but we support 79 columns now.. 15:17:39 <|amethyst> could cut the first column in that case 15:17:51 If there's a way to make that map such that it's not too visually noisy for new players to make sense of, it'd be a nice addition 15:18:15 I could see it being tricky to insulate said map against changes in branch placement and length, however. 15:20:06 ontoclasm: no, go ahead, please 15:20:15 ontoclasm: if you come up with something, just add it to the wiki 15:20:23 I try to see if/how colouring can help 15:20:39 dtsund: new map for every new version, that's the deal 15:20:45 yeah, colouring would be a big help 15:20:56 <|amethyst> also, Crypt is wrong 15:21:04 <|amethyst> oh, never mind 15:21:35 dpeg_: Will it be an image file that gets generated by hand for each new version, or something automatically produced by the source? 15:21:39 <|amethyst> it looked like it was V:2-3 but I guess it's 2-4 since the "/" extends into the space 15:21:56 dtsund: by hand is easier -- I'd treat is as part of the documentation 15:22:14 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 15:22:54 0.12 will already need a map change anyway (V shortening) 15:23:23 |amethyst: what's the reason for the 79 columns? 15:24:05 <|amethyst> dpeg_: to fit kilobyte's phone :) 15:24:08 <|amethyst> %git 355792f 15:24:55 kilobyte * 0.11-a0-1681-g355792f: Allow running Crawl on a 79x25 terminal. (4 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/355792f61396 15:25:07 We should copy Biskum money scam, reasoning that "our underpriviliged East European developers need access to mobile hardware with 80 columns". 15:27:08 Donate at least 50K $US and receive a printed copy of the Crawl source! 15:27:33 haha 15:27:34 dpeg: http://pastie.org/4642159 15:28:03 i shifted some things around to leave a little space between branches 15:30:34 and column 1 can be cut in the case of a 79x25 term :U 15:31:00 ontoclasm: yeah that looks better, originally I had all the branch names shortened but decided to extend them 15:31:02 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: I see you fixed the crypt thing too, thanks 15:31:19 donate $50K and have dpeg come over for a weekend and criticise the design of your own roguelike 15:31:25 though it needs to be 24 rows 15:31:29 i left most of them extended, but cutting off a few "the"s saved some space 15:31:35 <|amethyst> oh, and I like these crossovers better 15:31:48 <|amethyst> st_ has a point re 24 rows 15:31:57 st_: oh, well i have a blank second row that can get deleted 15:32:21 there you go 15:33:16 <|amethyst> it's "Orcish Mines" 15:33:25 mm 15:33:39 <|amethyst> and we usually don't capitalise "Of" but that's also minor 15:34:56 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:35:28 okay, done 15:35:38 and shortening the vaults shouldn't be that hard 15:35:40 -!- pointsofdata has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0/20120824154833]] 15:35:43 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 15:36:04 <|amethyst> unless blade shifts up 15:36:20 <|amethyst> of course, it might shift up into heaven 15:36:30 also minor, the path to slime should have a second + 15:36:31 0.13: all branches are in d, and can spawn anywhere from d:3 to d:20 15:37:09 <|amethyst> actually, I think I'd prefer them slime thing to be more like 15:37:10 had a better idea for slime 15:37:12 <|amethyst> --+ 15:37:15 <|amethyst> / 15:37:21 <|amethyst> or even 15:37:22 <|amethyst> + 15:37:24 <|amethyst> / 15:38:02 <|amethyst> as it is I at first thought it was a continuation of swamp/snake/shoals/spider until I remembered that they now have consistent depths 15:38:44 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 15:38:51 mm 15:39:10 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: My work is end \(^o^)/] 15:39:20 isn't it Tomb of the Ancients? 15:40:49 <|amethyst> I'm fine with leaving "the" out to save a little space 15:40:59 <|amethyst> otherwise it's "The Orcish Mines" etc 15:41:26 Is there also a good way to indicate there's only ever 2 of swamp/snake/shoals/spider? 15:42:05 hm 15:42:11 -!- Duvessa has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0/20120824154833]] 15:42:25 well, once you find them the non-existent ones can go dark, but i dunno before that 15:42:30 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:42:37 and i think you should cut the first column to make it 79 chars 15:42:52 but that's all my feedback -- it's really good 15:44:55 <|amethyst> are the underlines supposed to be filled in? 15:45:01 <|amethyst> as you visit levels 15:45:14 <|amethyst> because that won't work for the hells and the lair branches 15:45:28 <|amethyst> but that (or colouring the number) would be nice otherwise 15:45:42 <|amethyst> of course, handling that would be a pain to say the least 15:46:02 it would be nice to have a () or something where the player is 15:46:26 and i considered marking rune floors with {} but it was ugly 15:46:42 and inconsistent wrt pan, abyss, etc 15:47:00 -!- white_noise has quit [K-Lined] 15:47:00 -!- Yermak has quit [K-Lined] 15:47:00 -!- OoO has quit [K-Lined] 15:47:00 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [K-Lined] 15:47:00 -!- wjchen has quit [K-Lined] 15:47:00 -!- omnirizon has quit [K-Lined] 15:47:00 -!- One-Eyed has quit [K-Lined] 15:47:00 -!- Kellhus has quit [K-Lined] 15:47:00 -!- Lulero has quit [K-Lined] 15:47:01 -!- BanMido has quit [K-Lined] 15:47:29 an @ 15:47:48 <|amethyst> maybe @@ instead of -- for your location, and ** for rune levels? 15:48:05 <|amethyst> though as you say that would be problematic for Pan 15:48:09 why not just one { for runes? 15:48:14 or is the glyph } 15:48:25 i'm going to have it backwards at least once, like usb 15:48:37 <|amethyst> -} or }- ? 15:49:17 i was thinking next to the name, in the color of the actual rune 15:49:27 <|amethyst> oh 15:49:34 <|amethyst> color of the actual rune doesn't work 15:49:41 |amethyst: please do not put too much heed to 79 column tinyterms 15:49:42 <|amethyst> since they're all elemental colours 15:49:43 alas 15:49:59 merely having Crawl run and not crash is enough 15:50:02 this isn't an in-game map? 15:50:21 not yet, but that was the intent i guess 15:50:23 <|amethyst> even if it is in-game, we don't handle elemental colours most places 15:50:33 <|amethyst> in particular, in menus, which this is likely to be 15:50:43 oh, and i guess runes change color, too 15:51:01 <|amethyst> yeah, there would be no stimulus to change the colour 15:51:13 <|amethyst> since there's no need to scroll or anything 15:51:28 <|amethyst> unless you let people navigate around or something :) 15:51:29 hm, it's hard to imagine exactly the color used with this syntax hilighting 15:51:43 also i want a purple 0 by Zot :) 15:54:51 i'm sure something could be done w.r.t. color 15:55:27 i guess -} could work, but } by itself next to or under the name would fit better for s/s/s/s, hells, pan, and abyss 15:55:39 -!- Aut0Exec has quit [Quit: Later Losers!] 15:56:25 Vestible of Hell can fit on one line 15:58:31 -!- OneEyedJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:59:58 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:47 as an imp from today's OOTS said, "what the Home Sweet Home" 16:01:16 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:01:21 -!- Fhqwhgads_ is now known as Fhqwhgads 16:02:16 hello errybody 16:04:56 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:06:50 what's the point for known shafts to not drop you as far as unknown ones? 16:07:12 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:08:54 -!- bobjones has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:07 ontoclasm: awesome! My connection was dead, and I didn't realise :( Sorry! 16:10:14 I thought of a different colour scheme (essentially, one colour for a branch, including its numbers and the diagonals). But yours increases readability a lot, for sure. 16:10:41 oh, i didn't color it 16:10:49 pastie automatically does that 16:11:07 it just happened to give it a good color scheme by accident 16:11:16 -!- Namey has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11:28 oh, wow :) 16:12:26 one does commonly connect spider's nest, slime pits, and dis with the common theme of 16:13:43 HangedMan: of? 16:13:46 -!- indspenceable has left ##crawl-dev 16:14:16 exactly 16:14:27 the blue numbers are nice though 16:15:24 -!- omnirizon has quit [Quit: goin' home] 16:16:33 blue? 16:17:44 i guess it depends which theme you choose when viewing it 16:18:00 "Twilight gives blue text and red numbers 16:18:38 "Twilight" 16:24:15 Hey, we just got a new splash screen. 16:25:24 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:29:12 * dpeg_ has to anti-oxidise his rusty wordpress skills. 16:32:25 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GWJNKtfmryY/UEEV8Fia1xI/AAAAAAAAAhg/hp4cypNn5qw/s1600/title_pooryurik_knight_2x.png 16:32:44 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 16:32:52 thats awesome haha 16:32:54 angriest knight 16:33:08 unseen horror, purple ugly thing, uh 16:36:14 any tiles persons around? 16:36:45 poor_yurik's splash screen is 512x512 instead of 416x416 -- is this a serious problem? 16:37:05 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 16:38:05 I wouldn't think so 16:38:50 edlothiol: I am thanking John left and right. This assumes that we actually use the splash screen. Any objections to that? 16:40:25 objection: it needs more tentacles 16:41:04 it may look a bit cut off since it'll just be centered on a black screen, but it'll probably be fine 16:41:38 the shaft of that glaive is a little think for my tastes (euphemism) 16:41:44 thick* 16:42:43 * dpeg_ is at a loss 16:48:51 just tell him its awesome already, but will be centered on a black screen and the borders will be cut off 16:49:01 s/be/look 16:52:29 -!- Thann has joined ##crawl-dev 16:52:44 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:00:24 -!- blabber_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:03:26 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:04:14 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 17:06:12 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:06:49 -!- ZebTM has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:07:38 -!- syllogism has quit [] 17:14:05 and David Ploog (aka dpeg) -- who was up until recently one of the main designers and coders behind DCSS. 17:14:10 dpeg - now a coder! :) 17:16:27 * dpeg_ gracefully accepts false praise as well. 17:20:39 -!- MPR has quit [Changing host] 17:20:58 -!- Syrio has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:25:25 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:26:24 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:37 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:28:07 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:30:19 03dpeg * r5c8ac439741d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/tiles/title_pooryurik_knight.png: New title screen (poor_yurik). 17:31:05 -!- jato_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:23 is it intended that ice statues can be constricted? 17:35:07 -!- unknownuser_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:35:37 I don't know. 17:38:12 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:38:18 -!- Pthing has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:26 dpeg_: the screen is enabled - dropping it in that directory with a filename starting with title_ was all that's necessary 17:38:37 oh, so my commit message was off 17:39:01 edlothiol: do you recall any tension back when poor_yurik submitted tiles? 17:39:23 I wasn't on the devteam then 17:40:01 yes 17:40:33 I told John that he might have been doing this at a time when Crawl had no developer using tiles. 17:40:53 -!- Vidiny has quit [Quit: In the time it takes for a woman to get ready, the weather is almost guaranteed to change.] 17:41:14 <|amethyst> I don't think there's any fundamental objection to e.g. timed animations 17:41:33 <|amethyst> it's just a lot of work that no one really wants to do 17:41:34 i think it's just been quite a while since we've had any really active offline tiles devs 17:41:36 yeah 17:41:37 I think enne was still there though? I don't know 17:42:04 I have implemented tile scaling for webtiles, by the way 17:42:11 Enne was the first proper tiles dev. After that, Johanna took some of that. 17:42:11 enne hung out here for a long time without actually contributing much 17:42:25 ha, like me! 17:42:26 <|amethyst> btw, not thinking about anyone in particular, but it's a little weird that we don't have artists on the dev team 17:42:40 we do call it the *dev* team 17:42:42 this is a good point 17:42:44 not the art team :P 17:42:48 <|amethyst> Zannick: we have designers 17:42:57 joke 17:43:00 I don't know... it's not like they need commit access 17:43:14 <|amethyst> edlothiol: actually... 17:43:26 edlothiol: yes, but it's good to have someone who feels responsible to say yay or nay to new art, and is exercising that power. 17:43:41 dpeg_: yes 17:43:45 <|amethyst> edlothiol: plenty of tiles have been on mantis for weeks or longer with no one committing them 17:43:52 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 17:44:04 ah, what dpeg wants is an art director 17:44:13 |amethyst: well, yes, but would they get committed if the artists had commit access? 17:44:21 http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74348 17:44:22 <|amethyst> hm.. 17:44:45 i guess not so many tile submitters hang out here, either 17:44:49 the problem is that most tile additions need at least a bit of coding too 17:44:57 Zannick: it was |amethyst's idea! 17:45:06 <|amethyst> true, they would have to learn enough C++ (and the dc-*.txt language) to be able to cut-and-paste things before committing 17:45:29 it's a bit like being responsible for vaults 17:45:34 -!- One-Eyed has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:46:46 vaurt director 17:46:59 <|amethyst> vaultunteer 17:48:15 The Lone Wanderer, from Vault dpeg_entry_arbitrary_a 17:48:33 * Zannick says that in the fallout 3 radio guy's voice 17:48:34 I do sometimes dream about rewriting the whole tilepick and rltiles stuff so adding tiles requires no code (amongst other things) 17:48:47 but there's so much other stuff to do... 17:49:49 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:50:09 evilmike: ha! 17:50:51 hello 17:51:38 <|amethyst> we were just talking about cloning you and sending the clone to art school 17:52:26 oh wow, blade trap on Lair:7 really hurts without trap scaling :( 17:52:49 * dpeg_ has sent a certain proposal to c-r-d. 17:52:53 had i been a spriggan i would probably be dead. or more likely have evaded it. 17:52:54 -!- Sorbius has quit [Quit: Copywight 2007 Elmer Fudd. All wights wesewved.] 17:53:05 |amethyst: can I go to art school and use the clone as a slave? 17:53:23 <|amethyst> heh 17:53:41 evilmike: I did what I could with my section of the Curse wiki page. (Many thanks for that!) Would you be okay with linking it to the forum? 17:54:23 yes, in fact I think if there's going to be feedback, a tavern thread would be good 17:54:36 evilmike: there is one... better to start a new one? 17:55:03 dpeg: a thread about the article specifically? 17:55:42 no, there is another snow thread about curses 17:56:00 oh. I wouldn't want to hijack someone elses thread for this 17:56:11 I link it to it from section 4, because players their brainstorm additional curse effects (in rather haphazard fashion) 17:56:58 evilmike: unless you beat me to it, I'd have a go 17:57:10 you should link to it in the header of the article 17:57:16 true 17:57:35 add an "Additional discussion" row to the table and link it there 17:57:35 -- wait, old forum thread, new one, or both? 17:57:39 just a new one 17:57:42 ok 17:58:38 -!- Senri has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:01:07 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:08:51 The forum's [list=] does not work. 18:08:55 the thread doesn't need to be fancy by the way, it's sufficient to simply link to the article, tell people to read it, and ask for comments (I've done that a few times) 18:09:48 you need to start each list item with [*] 18:09:49 (ignore last comment, I am stupid) 18:09:55 evilmike: not *that* stupid :) 18:10:02 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5553 18:11:01 well, I find the syntax pretty confusing myself. [*] is a weird thing to type 18:11:14 -!- lorenz371 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:26 I used [list=] instead of [list=1] 18:11:32 evilmike: short enough? 18:11:42 yeah 18:12:14 !seen elliptic 18:12:32 !seen link_108 18:12:33 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:12:35 :( 18:12:37 did you say you sent something to c-r-d? I don't see anything 18:12:42 dpeg: I'm around 18:12:47 (Wenzell is not though) 18:12:55 -!- PollyEsther has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:13:10 evilmike: about the traps! We were all on the same page over here, then we got this silly message by MSTRpbk or whatever he's called. 18:13:22 oh right, the monkey guy 18:13:23 And then galehar objected, also not strongly. (I talked to him about it today.) 18:13:50 Advertising Brogue's monkeys as a role model for traps is ... strange. One of the worse ideas in that game, imo. 18:14:10 elliptic: if you think I am far off in that berserk email, tell me here... saves time. 18:14:12 monkeys are annoying, but imps in that game are obnoxious 18:14:43 I wonder why Pender didn't learn from Nethack: nymphs aren't fun, hence neither are monkeys. 18:14:48 -!- Utis has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:02 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:15:04 monkeys are also a good example of why it's better for fleeing AI to be extremely stupid (as in Crawl's case, running into corners) rather than using extremely good pathfinding (maybe the best I've seen for a roguelike) 18:16:46 dpeg_: oh, I hadn't seen that e-mail until just now 18:16:48 evilmike: or perhaps just not use fleeing in the first place? Everything can be fun, including theft and flight. But then it's better to use it on single or rare enemies. 18:17:17 elliptic: I know that emails with two recipients are dangerous: chances of a reply go down drastically. 18:17:35 I've argued before for why fleeing is bad, and tried to improve it a bit (didn't achieve a whole lot, but high HP enemies are a bit less annoying). 18:18:00 I decided not to argue for "just remove fleeing at low HP", because even though I'd like that, it didn't seem like I'd be able to convince enough people. Maybe things are different now? 18:18:28 evilmike: is there anyone who disagrees, on the devteam? When I defended submerging, I meant that as an offensive power (you cannot see the attacker until very close; and no re-submerging). 18:18:52 -!- voker57_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:18:53 (I would basically replace the M_NO_FLEE flag with M_FLEES, and give it to a few "cowardly" enemies, but nothing more) 18:19:34 evilmike: I don't know what it means, but it seems good. As mentioned, fleeing is okay, but then is should be (a) clever (teleport, blink, dig, ToD) and (b) rare (uniques etc.) 18:19:45 s/seems/sounds/ 18:19:59 dpeg_: my first reaction to the e-mail is pretty negative 18:20:03 :( 18:20:08 -!- blabber_ has quit [Quit: gn8] 18:20:11 elliptic: including the flavour bits? 18:20:13 M_NO_FLEES makes it so monsters never flee at low HP, even though they are low intelligence 18:20:31 it's given to a few monsters... the main two I can think of right now are catoblepas and ghost moths 18:21:07 evilmike: interestingly, two new monsters 18:21:08 dpeg_: you mean 1? it is probably fine if it is just flavour, yeah 18:21:25 same with orb spider too 18:21:25 elliptic: 1) (without piety stuff), and 2). 18:21:52 <|amethyst> what email is this? 18:21:58 elliptic: Maybe I am too obsessed with this, but I want to encourage players to stay outside of corridors. 18:22:10 dpeg_: my main objection to 3-5 is that I foresee a ton of annoying things with checking whether you happen to be standing on a corpse, berserk duration running out the turn you step on top of one, and so on 18:22:12 |amethyst: private email about rage ideas to elliptic. Interested? 18:22:49 -!- VideoGames has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:22:49 elliptic: yes, I trust you. 18:22:55 dpeg_: (2) doesn't look like just flavour to me... I just think that berserk really does *not* need a buff 18:23:04 <|amethyst> ah, no worries. I'm not very good at evaluating balance :) 18:23:23 elliptic: I came up with this when I heard that berserk's best done in tunnels. 18:23:28 hey 18:23:29 what? 18:23:44 just had a quick glance at the backlog before heading to bed 18:23:45 berserk isn't particularly great in corridors, no more so than regular combat 18:23:46 elliptic: also, it'd be trivial to make it a rare effect (10%). 18:23:48 galehar: Hallo! 18:23:53 and probably less good, since you have to walk a lot 18:24:10 indeed, would be good to hire someone to commit tiles and make decisions. 18:24:32 galehar: Would you mind making no monsters flee unless on special, designated purpose? 18:25:24 I toned it down a bit lately 18:25:35 with some randomization 18:25:39 dpeg_: to be clear, I'd say that (berserk-in-corridor - berserk-in-room) < (not-berserk-in-corridor - not-berserk-in-room) 18:26:01 huh 18:26:28 probably I berserk less often in corridors than in rooms already... I do however often lead stuff to stairs before berserking, because berserking on stairs is good 18:26:34 dpeg_: btw I didn't mean that "nobody in their sane mind berserks in a corridor", what I was saying was that I think against a large number of enemies in the open, you need to be mindful of post-berserk paralysis 18:26:55 evilmike: yes, sorry for misunderstanding 18:26:55 in the open, I'll berserk if it's a smallish number of enemies I feel like I can kill 18:26:56 evilmike: trog already blocks the paralysis though 18:27:15 at decent piety, chance of post-berserk paralysis is 0 with trog 18:27:16 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 18:27:30 yeah, its just a low piety thing with trog 18:27:33 -!- Gilihad has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:47 elliptic: okay, in order to go somewhere. Would it be acceptable to make an implementable out of 1)? I take it increasing rage duration for chopping under berserk is ungainly. 18:29:09 for (1), I think it would be good to make sure that the player always gets at least one chunk 18:29:12 well, I'm not opposed to what evilmike is proposing about the fleeing change 18:29:20 that said, I really need to sleep 18:29:23 * galehar sleeps 18:29:30 night! 18:29:31 because the most common situation in which you are doing this is when everything is dead and you want to eat something 18:29:39 and chasing down chunks seems annoying 18:30:21 elliptic: so gameplay-wise, it's a small buff (vampiricism, distortion, blunt weapons), and that's it? 18:30:29 if chunks fly everywhere, it should be a small radius (even 1 would be fine), and there should be a chunk on the square you're standing on 18:30:56 alternatively, don't cause chunks to fly everywhere, and use a blood splatter effect instead 18:30:58 dpeg_: also, about 4... I don't like increasing rage duration, but it would certainly be reasonable to treat it the same as a melee action for berserk duration 18:31:08 maybe it already is? I forget 18:31:11 ok 18:31:25 As I wrote, I got inspired by the cute "This feels good!" message. 18:33:05 evilmike: FWIW, Light removed "flee on low HP" a while ago 18:33:16 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:33:24 -!- Fhqwhgads_ is now known as Fhqwhgads 18:33:37 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:33:42 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:33:51 dtsund: do you feel like it makes melee enemies harder? The last time I brought up that suggestion (which was quite some time ago), that was the main objection raised 18:34:17 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 18:34:19 since it would cause melee enemies to keep fighting all the way to 0, instead of stopping at some point before that. I don't find this to be a convincing argument, btw 18:34:21 In Lair, perhaps; the big difference is that hydras no longer run. 18:34:22 it would make hydras more dangerous for sure 18:34:36 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:34:47 But most of the characters who don't want to fight hydras either can kill them before they get close enough or have means of keeping them away 18:34:58 I've seen a lot of situations, both in my own games and in others, where players would have died if the hydra hadn't chosen to flee 18:35:19 fr: boulder hydra 18:35:29 The hydra starts rolling into a ball! 18:35:29 Sounds good: makes Orc more attractive. 18:35:35 I was thinking a couple enemies could be flagged as able to flee. Hydras are one, although I think fleeing hydras in swamp are a nuisance (maybe not so much any more, since it's easier to corner stuff in Swamp now) 18:36:26 might also affect slime creatures 18:36:31 Also, the removal of the ID game makes it more likely that players will know about escape tools. 18:36:40 So that probably compensates for the hydras itself. 18:37:14 dpeg_: I don't think slime creatures would be an issue. If you're in melee with a titanic slime creature, trying to make it flee is probably the worst choice you'll ever make 18:37:22 aside from hydras becoming more dangerous I wouldn't really worry about balance implications 18:37:59 elliptic: if we're really concerned, they could get placed deeper, but I wouldn't think so. 18:38:12 what if hydras got a bit of an HP cut? I worry that would make them too easy to pick off with wands 18:38:44 also, with the rewrite of mon-pick.cc, it would be easy to make hydras rarer in early lair 18:38:50 evilmike: I would just test it and then nerf hydras in one way or another if we decide they are a problem 18:39:19 no nerfing hydras!! 18:39:26 !lg * cv=0.10 xl>10 s=ckiller 18:39:30 17934 games for * (cv=0.10 xl>10): 1341x winning, 955x a hydra, 449x an orc warrior, 347x a player ghost, 307x a death yak, 266x a hill giant, 264x a centaur warrior, 260x a spiny frog, 241x a naga warrior, 229x an orc priest, 228x a yak, 225x a blink frog, 216x Nessos, 201x a black mamba, 200x an unseen horror, 195x an orc knight, 195x a skeletal warrior, 176x a greater naga, 174x a killer bee, 1... 18:39:47 Fair enough. I suppose that example you gave (of players who survived only because the hydra fled) wouldn't apply much to no-fleeing hydras anyway. Because you know they won't flee, and can adapt to that 18:40:02 why is every randart "Hydraslayer" weapon absolutely bad at killing hydras 18:40:03 yes 18:40:05 my immersion!!!!!! 18:40:24 I would like fleeing to be lessened, though I think having a few things flee would be good 18:40:24 -!- Guest42069 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:40:49 I like how dragons flee and then blast you for example 18:41:16 swapping things round so more things don't flee sounds good to me also 18:41:17 evilmike: I'd be surprised if it makes a big difference to their overall killrate... it's more that I'll be a little sad to lose that aspect of battles with them 18:42:13 elliptic: a less ubiquitious monster could get that feature 18:42:19 The "try to hurt them badly enough that they turn and run" aspect? 18:42:23 I'd give one of Yaks or Sheep fleeing, probably, since they are somewhat similar enemies. Leaning towards sheep 18:42:40 evilmike: why? nothing interesting about sheep fleeing 18:42:40 -!- Staplefun has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:42:46 Yeah, that just sounds annoying. 18:42:48 since sheep don't do anything anyway 18:43:01 Needs to be an enemy that is a: powerful, and b: regenerates quickly. 18:43:07 I guess so 18:43:09 I don't hear people complaining about dragons or hydras fleeing, they complain about boring stuff fleeing like crocodiles or yaks or whatever 18:43:24 yeah, the regeneration helps 18:43:29 One thing I miss: Asmodeus teleporting away 18:43:37 -!- CIA-59 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:43:41 FR: Covetous Asmodeus 18:43:43 that wasn't fleeing, that was him losing his emergency teleport spell 18:43:45 dtsund: and is not ubiquitious 18:44:01 -!- johnny0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:44:10 so do you think dragons should flee? 18:44:19 aside from bone dragons 18:44:32 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:44:32 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:34 not sure 18:44:41 I think by the time players encounter many dragons, they're likely to have some means of efficiently finishing off fleeing enemies. 18:44:57 Be it a ranged weapon, or Conjurations, or whatever. 18:45:01 dtsund: even in lair finishing off fleeing enemies is easy, it's just annoying 18:45:10 st_ has a point about the fleeing opening up room for their ranged attacks... although you need to corner them first 18:45:11 a +0 sling with no skill does fine, for instance 18:45:27 evilmike: they stop fleeing and breathe even without a corner 18:45:39 yeah, stuff with ranged attacks will do that 18:45:55 oh. Funny I never noticed, I guess it's because I always wand them before they get a chance to do much 18:46:09 dpeg_: I think it's fine for a couple common monsters to flee, it just shouldn't be the case that everything in lair/swamp flees 18:46:27 FR: Brogue Centaurs 18:46:43 (Not serious.) 18:46:51 obviously :P. those are so dumb, because the entire strategy is just "stand in a doorway" 18:47:34 Staircases work better. 18:47:43 (Same for goblin conjurers.) 18:48:25 should snails and turtles keep fleeing? I think their fleeing behaviour is obnoxious, personally, but they're one of the few enemies that does something more than just run away 18:48:25 -!- CIA-67 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:48:40 (of course, even without fleeing at low HP, they'd do that if you read fear) 18:49:12 Shelled turtles should be pushable. 18:49:37 evilmike: I don't find them obnoxious, just pointless 18:49:41 or maybe not, it looks like they do run away from you if you use fear 18:49:45 <|amethyst> You kick the turtle shell! The turtle shell hits the wandering mushroom! (x3) 18:50:00 elliptic: I have bad memories about when it broke autofight :P 18:50:25 it isn't like it saves their life to hide in their shell 18:50:43 effectively they are dead as soon as they hide 18:52:44 Hm, Light's tutorials are in even worse shape than I thought; segfault when trying to run them. 18:53:30 -!- Dixie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:14 -!- ZebTM has quit [] 18:55:03 elliptic: something interesting could be done with, if one is ready for strangeness. For example: shelled turtled can be kicked around and ignited/exploded. 18:55:48 dpeg_: I don't think that monsters should retreat to their shells if that is just going to be positive for the *player* 18:56:19 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:56:24 what about turtles going into their shell have increased armor and gain regeneration? 18:56:40 elliptic: not really serious. Just a pity that the shell code is sort of wasted. 18:56:43 that way the player can still kill the turtle, but it gives the monster a reason to hide in his shell 18:56:52 its more effective if there are multiple turtles at once 18:56:55 or monsters* 18:56:57 link_108: that's already true 18:56:57 is the joke that they already do that 18:57:00 make them retreat into their shells and start blinking, and after 3 turns they explode, like bob-ombs 18:57:05 :O 18:57:08 mm, blink turtle might be good 18:57:15 evilmike: yes, stuff like this :) 18:57:22 disregard everything I said haha 18:57:22 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:57:22 oh I meant as in "flashing" 18:58:38 -!- omnijim has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:59:36 <|amethyst> watchen astaunished das blinkenturteln 18:59:36 I just realised that I should probably stick to my gods. 18:59:54 |amethyst: "turteln" is a German verb 19:00:16 (to whisper sweet nothings, according to Leo) 19:01:38 -!- Thann has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:02:09 -!- link_108 has quit [Quit: link_108] 19:03:20 <|amethyst> ah, a little like "coo" in English 19:05:08 <|amethyst> and the older "bill and coo" (which I've never heard actually used) 19:08:12 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:09:36 -!- Senjai has quit [Changing host] 19:13:36 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 19:19:40 -!- CIA-99 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:20:36 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:29:28 -!- Serfuzz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:24 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:34:17 -!- neuwiz has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 19:35:45 -!- voker57__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:35:52 -!- voker57 has quit [Changing host] 19:47:11 -!- Nilsyn has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:51:21 I have written something like an open letter at 19:51:27 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5553&p=74432#p74432 19:51:37 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:51:46 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:51:48 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:51:57 Not sure my point comes across, but I am convinced that the probelm I describe is real. 19:52:33 There's a lot more to say, but that'd fit a blog posting better than the forum. 19:53:40 -!- inde has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:56:03 -!- st_ has quit [] 19:56:24 Anyone up for discussion? 19:57:43 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 20:01:33 I think it is natural for people to become more cautious over time. DCSS is a well established game now (far more than it was several years ago), and a better one too. But aside from that, I think caution is warrented on the subject of curses for two important reasons: 20:01:47 1. The system we have now isn't *that* bad. It's a complex problem, but not a serious one 20:02:33 2. This is something that is easy to screw up, since curses affect *all* players (this is different from adding a god, or a new portal vault, for example) 20:03:22 evilmike: I agree with natural but I don't think it's good. That's why I was really happy when dtsund forked: that can spark new life into an otherwise stagnating project (because he dares things that are not tried anymore in mainline Crawl). 20:03:52 Your 1. and 2. are right, but I've written my rant because I see this tendency in many places, not just with curses. 20:03:55 he has the advantage of being able to (mostly) make changes unilaterally, yeah 20:05:17 On topic of curses: while you are right, you are underselling the potential gain! Yes, a new system might be worse and we have to backpedal, but by not even trying we're missing yet another opportunity to create choices and fun. 20:06:24 I don't know if Crawl would benefet from that, it's already a very complex game. I fully agree with what alefury wrote on the wiki article 20:06:40 I have been discussing the question of watered-down design for years, mostly with Eino, but I don't see a solution. It' breaking my heart, because ten years from now, should the MD cut really have been last bold move? [/polemics] 20:07:08 -!- due is now known as jude 20:07:10 -!- jude is now known as due 20:07:22 In my world, choices are always good: if the pros and cons are clear, and --crucial-- several answers actually come up in play, the game has gotten better. 20:07:41 I think you are much less ambitious. 20:07:47 curses definitely seem like somewhere where there's loads of room to improve 20:08:06 well, I'm sure there are other people who would like to make bold changes. I'm more conservative than a lot of people here. I would rather only make changes when they are warrented, and I believe that unless I feel like what I'm working on makes the game more fun, I should be spending my time elsewhere 20:08:44 evilmike: but how can you know in advance?? 20:09:36 The funny thing is that I helped (or perhaps even started) the culture of cutting: I was aware that a bloated project like Crawl has a tendency to just add and add stuff. That's why we cut something, in every version. But you see: cutting Hill Dwarves is trivial: it was a vector of numbers, nothign more. Curses has potential to be something interesting, so by removing them, we lose a bit. 20:10:13 I would prefer to improve the system than remove it. I think removal should be on the table, that is all 20:10:22 even if it is only a last resort 20:10:36 evilmike: I've said it in my rant: with your approach to design, most of the new gods would have never materialised. There were always objections by devs whether the god would be fun. 20:10:55 evilmike: Removal is always on the table -- that has been established since DCSS 0.1. 20:12:20 An example are traps: Erik and I thought that traps have potential (planting traps, eventually a Trapper class; perhaps what Brogue aspires to). But it proved to be not really like this (and I spent a lot of time on trap-making, including Borsuk's cool idea), so I suggest removal of mechanical traps. 20:14:23 That decision would have come earlier without shafts: those somehow gave fresh blood to the hope. 20:15:20 * dpeg_ is the old man on the park bank talking to himself :) 20:15:28 oh I'm listening, don't worry ;) 20:15:59 Surrounded by hapless whippersnappers when gran tells wartime stories. 20:16:01 I feel like I should say, I don't oppose the addition of new gods (or races... there are two ideas for races which I'd be interested in seeing tested in trunk) 20:16:25 the thing is, with these sorts of changes to the game, you're giving an option to players. Even though a lot of work goes into them, it's not a huge change to the game 20:16:36 I understand you: the more "core" a mechanic is, the more cautious we should be. 20:16:47 whereas, with redoing the curse system, this is something everyone must experience. If the curse system is a complex minigame, it is a minigame everyone must play 20:17:40 Yes. However, I challenge that it would be complex. I believe that by using "complex" yourself, you make it easier for sceptics to say no. (Did you know that that's exactly the fate of the "complex numbers".) 20:18:10 -!- barbs has joined ##crawl-dev 20:18:29 Our players are trained to deal with monstrosities like the %, the A and the Ctrl-O screen. A new player (I always designed with new players in mind) would have no trouble your or mine curse systems. 20:18:42 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:18:54 I use complex as a relative term. I think it's fair to say that one solution is more complex than another 20:19:07 The veterans are uneasy about it. That's again natural: they like Crawl a lot. Those who comment are fans. And fans are conservative (I am myself). We as designers should not be fans. 20:20:00 Sure, but what does it help here? The current system is so trivial that any change --barring removal-- is more complex. But why frighten people with an obvious statement like that? 20:20:20 <|amethyst> "richer" 20:20:27 |amethyst: yes 20:20:56 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:24 I can phrase my problem in another way: how strong do we want the force that gravitates towards the two trival solutions (leave status quo, or cut)? 20:22:27 the way I see it, curses are a problem, so a solution is warrented. But the solution should only be as complex as it needs to be. There are a lot of things we can do, ranging from too-simple, to over-the-top. The two proposals on the wiki fall somewhere between these two extremes 20:23:10 I prefer one that solves the problem, but doesn't aspire to do much else. I suppose you could say, I do not see this as an opportunity, so much as a problem to fix 20:24:24 I phrased my proposal as it is on purpose: our players are accustomed to sticky curses, so I keep that (no complexity gained). The idea of "curse = bad effect" seems natural enough; at least players mention it on their own. So I do that in the simplest fashion I can. Afterwards, I think about an interface that's simple and does not hide information. (Not so easy, and details have to be discussed.) 20:24:37 -!- ajikeshi__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:25:28 We are trained to always think in terms of anti-grinding and fluid interface, so that's part of the business. 20:26:46 -!- Oddtwang has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:29:52 -!- notthepope has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:34:07 -!- unknownuser_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:44:51 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 20:49:03 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:49:35 Yes, for any system, all of that is necessary 20:49:45 huh, a reply :) 20:49:54 Yeah, I was eating dinner 20:49:58 (I'm writing a c-r-d response to galehar) 20:51:05 I feel the complexity is a more "cognitive" sort, of that makes any sense. With different curse types, different levels, etc, players have more to think about and more to manage 20:51:18 As I said, I think alefury's comments on the wiki article are spot on 20:52:29 -!- indspenceable has left ##crawl-dev 20:53:27 -!- DracoOmega|Out has joined ##crawl-dev 20:53:35 As I said: the curses need not have anything to do with item identification: if Curse Foo only gave tier 0 in my system (bonus points for consistency with Ash), then players would experience "real" curses later. 20:53:35 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:53:39 -!- DracoOmega|Out is now known as DracoOmega 20:54:11 Simulacrums sometimes have quotations and sometimes don't (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6142) by infiniplex 20:54:20 03dolorous * rdfcd0f127695 10/crawl-ref/source/godprayer.cc: Fix inaccurate Ely message: unholy and evil weapons are covered, not just the latter. 20:54:33 I don't really understand the bit about "change with time". And I think we should discuss that, because wraths will use a similar system. 20:54:45 -!- anubiscrapfoobis has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:54:54 That's fine. I think we still have the problem of remove curse being too inexpensive though. 20:55:29 that is a valid point 20:55:38 dpeg: as long as ?RC works on multiple items (and i think it should!), it is beneficial to wait as long as possible to use it, if it actually becomes more scarce 20:55:51 alefury: I don't think it should 20:55:57 more decisions by doing it Ash-style 20:56:02 so if you have 1 ?RC, you should wait until some of the curse is gone to use it in case you catch another one 20:56:08 03dolorous 07stone_soup-0.11 * r7e94112d9784 10/crawl-ref/source/godprayer.cc: Fix inaccurate Ely message: unholy and evil weapons are covered, not just the latter. 20:56:33 dpeg: actually, no, because then you cant get more use out of a single scroll, you always just get the bare minimum 20:56:37 this is less interesting imo 20:56:39 By having ?RC prompt for a target, you have at once made the scroll more expensive. 20:56:41 My motivation for "unequip effects" is that, if remove curse is too uncommon, an alternative is needed. Unequip penalties are my idea for that 20:57:03 alefury: the new decision is "what to uncurse" if you have several cursed items. 20:57:08 That's actually all I propose, in a nutshell. Make remove curse less common, and then add a mechanism to compensate for that 20:57:22 i like the unequip thing because it could also be interesting on good items 20:57:34 evilmike: yes, and it would also work, I have no doubts about that. I said ^ why I preferred another approach. 20:57:43 turning "recurse" into "eternally cursed" could be fun 20:57:43 yeah, I understand. 20:58:15 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:59:09 evilmike: the problem with your proposal is coming up with as few as possible effects that are interesting and together form a set that never becomes trivial 20:59:36 i think glow (sometimes yellow) is a fairly good one, and might be enough on its own 20:59:37 alefury: well, I mused about having only *one* effect. I picked contamination because it's almost always harmful (even with necromutation, you rot hp) 20:59:56 Regarding the big picture: I would suggest to stress 3. and 4., and discuss pros and cons of those. If you point out all the correct things you said right at the beginning, you get less good feedback. 21:00:07 well, glow is pretty irrelevant with necromutation, but still better than rot :) 21:00:35 true, it doesn't hurt much. it kind of makes sense that undead would be better at absorbing curses, though 21:01:27 dpeg_: I'm fine with that. Dispite my (perhaps excessive) caution, I would like to see these ideas developed further. I wouldn't have written that wiki article otherwise 21:01:51 I wonder how it would affect scroll spawning rates if remove curse changes from one of the most common scrolls to notably rare 21:01:58 evilmike: I know. What I'm trying to tell you is how to get more out of your readers (all imo etc.) 21:02:26 One issue I have with evilmike's proposal is that it doesn't scale. 21:02:59 does it have to? yellow glow is still pretty bad late in the game 21:03:03 I'll admit, that's not something I thought of (getting the most out of readers) when writing that. 21:04:05 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:14 (evilmike: just for next time: I'd have mentioned that "no change" and "cut" are fallbacks, but would not have given them much space, just mention in passing. In particular, no numbers. You really want readers to ponder 3 vs 4, and perhaps come up with own ideas.) 21:04:28 fair enough 21:04:59 alefury: early on: few ?RC, late: many. A glow miscast will hurt a lot more on D:5 than on D:27. 21:06:08 you are right that my proposal doesn't scale, since it affects the early game more than the later game 21:06:19 well, sure. lots of curses in tomb (and mummy zig floors), though (this is also one of the reasons i would prefer ?RC to still uncurse everything and be rarer) 21:06:20 -!- neuwiz has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 21:06:42 This may be a minor flavor point, but glow doesn't feel very 'cursey' to me. Curses feel like they verge into necromancy, and glow feels more generally magical. This isn't necessarily a big deal, but.... 21:06:43 mummy curses may be a way to deal with this. I agree with crate's opinions (on the tavern) that curses on death are bad. But maybe they could be given a "curse item" spell (not one they'd spam though) 21:07:03 evilmike: yes, I thought the same 21:07:20 Don't bog mummies do this already? 21:07:33 no, bog mummies are bog bodies now 21:07:37 and i dont think they ever did that 21:07:38 And they never did that anyway 21:07:38 ah, right 21:07:39 I replaced bog mummies with bog bodies in 0.11, yeah 21:07:50 they had death curses, but it made no sense thematically or from a gameplay perspective 21:07:51 * dpeg_ has no clue 21:08:30 what I did was get rid of the "mummy" aspect, and make them an 'n' (related to ghouls) with a stronger ranged attack 21:08:48 Anyway, what evilmike says is something I wanted for later, with my system: monsters who are dangerous because they curse your items. (Mummies are good, but others too.) 21:09:04 evilmike: yes yes, I killed bog bodies :) 21:10:08 dpeg: i think your proposal would work much better as a monster effect than as something that just randomly comes up during identification 21:10:10 (I believe that waving monsters like our moths have great potential to produce diverse situations, and then choices.) 21:10:35 alefury: forget identification: let's rule that Curse Foo scrolls give tier 0 curses (no bad effect, just sticky, as now). 21:10:47 alefury: I think there is potential for a "temporary bad mutation" effect, somewhat similar to the curse effects proposed 21:10:49 My proposal only says that half-assedly 21:11:11 I think other people have expressed a similar sentiment 21:11:18 As a slight variation on #4, what if instead of each type of cursed item having a random different effect, divided into multiple tiers, the magnitude and number of cursed items just contributed to an overall 'cursed' status that could have a variety of tailored special effects that scaled with magnitude? 21:11:24 hm, if curses on floor items were only level 0 or rarely 1, maybe higher for artefacts, it could work i guess 21:11:47 alefury: yes, like this 21:11:59 but then there is that huge system with lots of curse effects that wouldnt even get used much 21:12:16 DracoOmega: sounds good, but how to express the effects? My proposal has the interface advantage that you can just print the bad effect onto the item 21:12:26 Well, it could actually be a status light, maybe? 21:12:27 alefury: they will come, only later 21:12:55 DracoOmega: yes, but what individual effects do you use? If bad mutations, which ones are active etc.? 21:13:27 alefury: you still need ?RC early on as now. But at some point (midgame?), things would change a bit. 21:13:30 dpeg: what about just having timed mutations instead? 21:13:32 Well, I'm not sure what it would actually do specifically. I'm just talking off the top of my head. But I figured there'd be a standard set of worsening things it did, a bit like 'burdened' does, maybe 21:13:40 alefury: timed, or "timed"? 21:13:40 But there may be room for something more novel there, too 21:13:48 dpeg: -.- 21:13:57 alefury: so xp? 21:14:09 dpeg: exploration might work better, i dont know 21:14:14 but something like that 21:14:16 I thought the two of us had already established "timed"=use xp 21:14:31 exploration and xp are roughly equivalent 21:14:48 yes, but xp comes in chunks 21:14:57 xp rate also roughly scales with the difficulty of an area, which is nice 21:15:00 alefury: but exploration has higher potential to be scummed :) 21:15:07 I would rather not tie anything to exploration, except for ash piety 21:15:20 evilmike: yes, I agree 21:15:20 XP works nicely for most things like this, I think 21:15:48 alefury: my proposal is essentially timed mutation, only that you can spend a commodity to switch it off. 21:16:00 XP doesnt rally approximate time very well though, because the xp rate can vary so much 21:16:26 it might feel a bit weird if curse levels drop after killing big enemies, or a god stops wrathing after a big kill 21:16:27 dpeg_: well, I notice that in your suggestion, you *need* to use the scroll to switch it off. a "tier 3" effect stays at that tier even after the curse "wears off" 21:16:33 alefury: but if the xp demand is high, taht doesn't help the player -- this is what I mean by less scumming potential compared to exploring 21:16:41 it works very well for oka gifts, dont know about other stuff 21:17:08 or if a god has a notably longer wrath because you've been using summons/zombies/banishment/pacification/whatever 21:17:36 dpeg: by the way, i think timed negative effects on items would be more interesting without the sticky aspect 21:17:48 I think wrath should time out based on piety rules... 21:18:14 if you want to cure okawaru wrath, kill stuff. If you want to cure ash wrath, explore. This makes sense to me 21:18:24 the caveat is that these gods would no longer accept sacrifices 21:18:46 if you want to cure ely wrath? 21:18:46 What about Ely wrath, then? 21:18:52 evilmike: but how to trigger wrath effects? time after all? if it is with time, the wrath effects themselves cant reduce wrath or offer a way to do so 21:18:53 evilmike: Hm, perhaps I got it wrong. When reaching "slightly cursed" (the minimal level), then the effect shoudl cease? 21:19:00 oh, so we're pretending ely wrath exists? :P 21:19:16 dpeg_: to me that is more intuitive 21:19:36 Spriggans might have a hard time getting Chei wrath off at normal speed, too :P 21:19:37 alefury: I don'T understand? Players would just unequip that item? 21:19:44 alefury: use time, but don't make wrath effects decrease your penance 21:19:53 dpeg: YES! but what if they need it? :P 21:20:00 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 21:20:09 alefury: I dunno, haven't thought about that until now 21:20:20 * dpeg_ is fighting tooth and nail for sticky curse, on behalf of Ashenzari. 21:20:43 well, sticky could be one of several curse effects? 21:21:01 evilmike: I agree (re: my curse proposal). So it would be a timed, bad mutation attached to an item. You can wait it out, or blow ?RC on it. 21:21:05 and ash just turns all curses into "nailed to the sky" flavored ones 21:21:23 alefury: sure, there'd be no problem to get it straight 21:21:44 something about the two proposals on the wiki... while I obviouslt prefer one or the other, I am ok with both. But I am quite against combining the two 21:22:04 [The bad mutations are just for easier use: I think there would be some interesting, item-bound non-mutations that make cool curse effects.] 21:22:09 maybe I could be convinced... but to me it looks like crossing the line into "too complicated" 21:22:26 -!- Chozo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:39 I definitely prefer sticky curse + some implementation of negative effects, myself 21:22:52 Perhaps not that SPECIFIC implementation 21:22:58 evilmike: I agree, and I started with a combination. In my proposal, I cannot explain the bad unequip effect (it would have to be random), and that loses the appeal of item inscriptions.- 21:23:00 Basically, I think both proposals do as much as they need to 21:23:28 Unequip effects akin to distortion? 21:23:40 -!- Staplefun has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:23:42 similar, but less random, and always negative 21:24:00 distortion unwield can be positive or negative 21:24:05 Maybe it's just being so used to the game, but being able to freely swap off cursed weapons (no matter the penalty) doesn't feel quite right. I understand the intent, but it feels like the sort of deviation from tradition that I hesitate about (not that tradition should be paid TOO much attention to, of course) 21:24:24 Usually negative, it's just that some are exploitable in some circumstances. 21:24:25 DracoOmega: a new player wouldn't know any of that :) 21:24:30 I realize that 21:24:41 dtsund: I don't see it as an exploit, personally 21:24:43 But I just like the generalities of the other alternative more, anyway 21:25:01 evilmike: i think a third way could be fun. Sticky is only one possible curse effect (and does nothing else in that case, like current curses). Other curses cause a bad effect, but you can freely unequip the item. Bad effect on unequip could also be a curse effect. But the idea in general would be to tack a temporary bad effect on to the item, so the player has to choose whether to unequip it 21:25:13 until the curse dissipates, or keep using it because he needs it and take the bad effect 21:25:16 I think it kind of is, because an unspoiled player has no way of knowing that distortion unwield effects are the same as tloc miscasts. 21:25:44 dtsund: true, it's a spoiler issue. I blame the documentation in that case, though. 21:26:01 snow 21:26:30 I think distortion unwield is an interesting choice. You get one very powerful effect (instant teleport), one effect that can either be disastrous or life saving (banishment), and the rest of the stuff is nasty. You're always risking glow, too 21:26:40 s curse thread had curse effects like "random confusion", "monster double action always occurs" 21:26:51 haha, monster double actions... 21:26:53 evilmike: isnt it instant teleport + confusion, though? 21:27:07 I do agree with that. Perhaps "exploit" is the wrong word. 21:27:21 alefury: Most people who pack distortion also pack clarity, don't they? 21:27:25 What I like about distortion unwield is that you can prepare. 21:27:43 dtsund: sure, just saying it is powerful but not strictly positive 21:27:52 maybe I've said here before, but I think the 0.6 addition of monster double-attacks (which was removed in 0.7) was the worst thing that ever made it into a DCSS release :P 21:27:55 -!- remyroy has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:28:18 0.6 was just kind of off in general. 21:28:26 It's ok, it's all in the past now. I think we can learn a lot from that though 21:28:28 evilmike: what was the other terrible thing that made it into a release version btw? 21:28:30 Between that and the brokenness of heavy armor. 21:28:30 * dpeg_ wonders if he is to blame. 21:28:54 Zin was unplayable for a while. 21:28:57 alefury: 0.6 over-nerfed armour by adding a ton of penalties to melee, etc. To the point where everyone went for EV for a while 21:29:12 heh 21:29:22 evilmike: It was worse than that 21:29:27 yeah, it took a while for armor to recover, but its totally back now :) 21:29:50 For a while, I think even into 0.7, EV builds were strictly better than heavy armor builds just for damage mitigation. 21:30:02 dpeg_: was unplayable Zin in a stable release? I don't mind it when trunk occasionally "breaks" in silly ways like that 21:30:24 evilmike: ....you mean, like, 0.7 and earlier? 21:30:41 I seem to recall Zin being bad for a *long* time. 21:30:42 evilmike: yes, I think so. Of course, that'S much less a concern than broken AC, because you can easily ignore one god out of 14 or so, whereas without AC it's all EV. 21:30:52 dtsund: EV was superior in 0.7 as well. But 0.6 was where the extreme nerfs happened. Some of them were rolled back in 0.7 21:31:29 it's so nice of crawl to force us to balance three separate defensive stats 21:31:47 DracoOmega: otoh, Zin and TSO were so close pre-DCSS, didn't really matter taht one god was virtually absent. 21:32:18 evilmike: whats your take on shields btw? people tend to say they are terrible 21:32:24 DracoOmega <--> dtsund 21:32:28 alefury: they're wrong 21:32:45 im not talking about bucklers btw 21:32:49 -!- ZebTM has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:32:58 dpeg_: Aye, I'd seen some vague descriptions of the pre-DCSS gods, and remember thinking "aren't those pretty much the same"? 21:33:07 alefury: oh ok 21:33:27 alefury: I don't use regular shields unless I find a really good one (aka the shield of resistance unrand) 21:33:39 dtsund: exactly. Trog have Might at ** or ***, so nobody had to use rage after that. (Okawaru had Might, Haste, Healing, I think.) 21:33:44 They're not nearly as bad as a lot of people say they are, though 21:33:53 and large shields, well, the skill cost is absurd. But on characters where I've used a large shield with high skill, I can say that the defense helps 21:34:51 hm, okay. that has been my experience too 21:34:54 Hm. Regarding skill costs... 21:35:04 Might it be that some skills should cap earlier than 27? 21:35:04 except i sometimes used even mediocre medium shields 21:35:26 wow, i really got to go to bed 21:35:27 good night 21:35:37 -!- alefury has quit [] 21:35:43 dtsund: I think that's a good idea. in my opinion, traps and doors should cap at like 10 21:36:05 shields should maybe cap at 25, since that's when the penalties go away... 21:37:07 there's another solution to that, though: treat shields skill more like how armour skill works 21:38:49 evilmike: I am lobbying for T&D removal 21:39:01 -!- buki has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:10 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:41 I've seen all the ideas about the traps thing, and all the serious ones (aka no monkeys) look fine to me 21:39:54 I think it would be hard to go wrong here. So I have no strong opinions 21:40:01 * dpeg_ is in Europe, like alefury. Good night 21:40:14 I would even be ok with keeping mechanical traps, although I would love to see the 's' command die 21:40:47 yes, that's a good one -- my main concern is killing the T&D skill; a great opportunity, now that secret doors go (I forgot that point in my c-r-d mail) 21:41:07 -!- wjchen has joined ##crawl-dev 21:41:52 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: sleeeeep] 21:47:38 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 21:54:00 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:58:02 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:13 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:59:38 -!- HangedMan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:06:37 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:21:06 -!- magistern has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:21:15 -!- Lawman has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:27:46 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:33:06 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 22:34:30 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:40 -!- Wenzell has joined ##crawl-dev 22:40:04 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:03 yo guys, next time wenzell goes down just send me a !tell 22:41:14 nice try wensley 22:41:14 evilmike: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 22:41:37 <|amethyst> we figured you just stopped typing stuff 22:42:04 -!- HellTiger has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:42:37 |amethyst: I've begun outsourcing the typing to children, but you know how unreliable they are 22:42:45 try monkeys instead 22:42:48 always asking for "naps" and "water" and "their parents" 22:43:17 http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/14 22:43:33 -!- Tally has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:52 try lobotomizing them, they will be more zombie-like and obedient that way 22:44:14 Pacra: monkeys would steal the computers and run awway 22:44:32 dtsund: you must have all penny arcade articles indexed somehow 22:44:50 No, I just put "penny arcade gold farmer" into Google. 22:45:06 dtsund is secretly larry page 22:45:16 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:55 dtsund is secretly a gold farming magnate 22:45:55 -!- voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:47:00 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:48:41 "secretly" 22:54:19 -!- Rewans has quit [] 22:56:04 -!- imantor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:57:51 Don't be silly. Gold isn't magnetic. 23:00:05 -!- voker57_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:09 Debian builds of pre-release branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-b1-83-g7e94112 23:06:55 -!- Staplefun has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:17:40 -!- Kalir has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:17:47 -!- pelotr0n is now known as pelotron 23:19:26 -!- voker57 has quit [Changing host] 23:19:30 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 23:19:52 -!- voker57__ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:19:53 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:25:34 -!- erisdiscordia_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:29:09 -!- clinew_ is now known as clinew 23:29:40 -!- bonghitz has quit [Client Quit] 23:30:29 -!- bonghitz has quit [Client Quit] 23:33:34 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: bye] 23:35:38 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 23:39:16 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0/20120824154833]] 23:40:33 -!- blackcustard has quit [Quit: Counted eleven steps when his brain said ten.] 23:41:13 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:43:44 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:43:58 -!- bracc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:52 -!- voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:54:54 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 23:55:06 -!- voker57 has quit [Changing host] 23:56:07 -!- pelotron has quit [Quit: ~Internet()] 23:58:37 -!- odiv has quit [Quit: leaving]