00:02:09 Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.11-b1-65-ge0de022 00:03:24 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-274-g5069cbe (34) 00:18:19 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 00:19:45 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 00:19:53 -!- olgyf has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:38:20 -!- Grildrak has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:43:59 -!- Lightli has quit [] 00:46:43 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:51:16 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:46 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 00:58:19 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:44 -!- Vizer__ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:04:00 -!- johnny0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:04:15 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:07:30 -!- rufford has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:10:12 -!- Morphy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:11:55 -!- elliott has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:15 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 276 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13:37:30 -!- StekarDraken has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:41:39 -!- jbenedetto has quit [Client Quit] 13:44:25 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 13:46:06 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 14:05:37 -!- Camicio1000 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:06:11 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 14:06:35 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15:09 -!- Yen has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:16:23 -!- magistern has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:17:12 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:18:17 -!- Mel is now known as Guest41710 14:19:05 -!- Guest41710 is now known as Senri 14:21:25 -!- chewymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:00 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:30:08 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:42 -!- ark____ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:35:53 What's the codepath taken when you do map-related mouse actions? I see some cases in process_command, but it seems as though they're not actually being used... 14:40:28 DungeonRegion::handle_mouse 14:41:08 assuming by map-related mouse actions you mean clicking on the dungeon region to walk and so on 14:41:30 Yeah 14:41:49 Specificially, shift-click to shoot is what I'm after. 14:42:44 Anyway thanks 14:44:22 -!- xnavy is now known as Guest44863 14:44:23 -!- xnavy_ is now known as xnavy 14:47:57 -!- Guest44863 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:51:27 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 14:53:00 -!- daftfad has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:36 -!- Morphy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:58:05 -!- VideoGames has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:58:46 dtsund: tilereg-dgn.cc:670 14:59:08 Yeah, already found and updated it to do what I wanted it to, but thanks 14:59:37 (Implementing implicit ammo, to see how that works; wanted shift-click to let you fire implicit arrows.) 15:01:24 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:03:23 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 15:04:50 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:06:55 -!- voker57 has quit [Changing host] 15:10:37 -!- Codrus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:10:41 -!- Deathmic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:16:43 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: UkonĨuji] 15:16:54 By the way, "ammoHitBonus = ammoDamBonus = std::min(3, mons->hit_dice);" <--- does this mean reasonably powerful monsters effectively fire ridiculously enchanted ammo no? 15:16:56 *now 15:19:46 -!- ConspicuousOdor has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:21:04 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:21:18 Napkin: adding a way to update the Debian crawl repository on CDO while logins for the "crawl" user are disabled is probably not worth the effort, right? 15:21:37 (assuming the heat problems will go away soon) 15:22:18 dtsund: it's capped at 3, just like for the player 15:23:59 It says std::min, not std::max 15:24:24 So everything's getting at least +3, and yaktaurs, for instance, get +8 15:24:27 could be capped at mons->hit_dice/3, to match the player 15:24:39 duh 15:24:54 dtsund, 8 is less than 3? 15:25:01 dtsund: no, it's the opposite 15:25:02 Whups 15:25:12 I'm the best at math. 15:25:37 s/duh//, I'm blind too :p 15:25:40 capping with min is strangely unintuitive. I often make that mistake too :) 15:26:19 -!- Syrio has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:26:37 Yeah, I think I like /3 more, since otherwise it maxes out too quickly. 15:27:07 oh and yeah, /3 would be better, sure 15:27:26 If you do /3, you could probably even increase the cap. 15:28:47 -!- nht has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:29:44 actually, for missiles, it's already done 15:32:08 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:34:33 -!- fooobaar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:35:08 -!- Pthing has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:12 -!- Namey has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:44:07 -!- ZebTM has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:02 -!- tsn has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:51:31 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 15:53:05 -!- frogbotherer has joined ##crawl-dev 15:54:03 <|amethyst> wha, trunk on cszo got screwed up somehow 15:55:21 <|amethyst> oh, it's been screwed up since c72f399 15:56:42 is that the thing where tiles is all messed up? I saw a screenshot recently of that 15:57:04 -!- ZRN_ is now known as ZRN 15:57:10 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-205-gc1fbd6f (34) 15:57:14 <|amethyst> tiles in 0.11 is messed up when someone stays connected across an update that changes tiles 15:57:36 giant spore trail silence <3 15:57:58 <|amethyst> on CSZO that is, not in general 15:59:42 <|amethyst> the problem that the update just fixed was that, with the reset last week, cszo's repo and the main repo got out of sync and I was merging in every new commit rather than fast-forwarding 16:00:02 <|amethyst> I was wondering why my version numbers didn't make sense :) 16:00:17 <|amethyst> gtg for now 16:09:01 Is there anything like an iron grate that stops movement through it but does allow attacks to go through? 16:09:12 I'm designing quite possibly the most evil Zot stair vault ever made 16:09:31 Lightli: lava? 16:09:44 No good, I'm using Orbs of Fire 16:10:32 well, it's been talked that grates could let reaching, firing and clouds through, but for now, there's no such feature 16:10:40 damn it 16:10:55 The idea was for the stairs to be in LOS of 3 orbs of fire behind grates and lava 16:10:58 you should try to avoid "stuff behind glass" vaults anyway 16:11:09 the idea is overused, there are already a lot of vaults that do it, etc 16:11:22 in particular there are already a couple of zot ones that do this 16:11:27 You flew over to try and kill the orbs of fire, you would get paralyzed by giant eyeballs and then breathed upon by quicksilver dragons 16:11:33 While over lava. 16:12:28 Sounds... fun. 16:12:45 Why yes I am an evil bastard 16:13:18 I guess I could get the same effect if I put ungodly good items on the other end... 16:13:23 quicksilver dragon (11D) | Spd: 15 | HD: 16 | HP: 66-108 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Dam: 25, 20 | sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(149), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 3564 | Sp: b.quicksilver (3d20) | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 16:13:23 %?quicksilver dragon 16:13:26 damnit 16:13:55 you could achieve something like this with a much simpler idea 16:13:58 (the items would all be mimics) 16:14:11 put some purple draconians (and loot, don't make it all-mimics, that's dumb) on a lava island 16:15:32 I got something a bit similar lately: hangedman_surveillance_ring 16:15:36 it was fun 16:15:42 heh 16:16:09 of course, i took the shaft :) 16:16:51 surveillance_ring is made to look really panicky but if you just stand in the center the eyes of devastation are usually stopped because they'd hit each other 16:17:06 Wait, has someone done that idea yet evilmike? 16:17:10 and killing a brown ooze or reading fog before the eyes kill isn't too hard 16:17:15 Lightli: not specifically 16:17:19 brb 16:18:21 Lightli: just try to make it so it's actually fun/interesting. Don't make it a trap that throws players into lava, either give them a warning ahead of time or a chance to back out 16:18:44 I know, I'll have it out in the open so that people can decide if it's worth it. 16:18:46 what you want to do is make the vault dangerous, and make the player think about how to get to the loot 16:19:04 |amethyst: about the game data caching problem, how about if I make the url also depend on the mtime of the client path? you'd have to touch it everytime you update its contents, but I don't really want to check every file... 16:19:57 Lightli: I'd also add, this idea is more suited to a standard "monsters + loot" vault than one with stairs (you should never put stairs behind lava) 16:20:23 (The idea was for the stairs to NOT be behind lava. It would be the orbs that were behind lava.) 16:20:33 they'd float over 16:20:36 -!- scummos has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:20:39 layout_basic lava rivers can :P (though only one) 16:20:49 Which is why I'm doing a new vault now 16:21:16 HangedMan: in that case, I believe there will always be stairs on both sides of the river 16:21:24 mmmm 16:21:58 maybe it's possible to get them all one one side... you'd get hatches on the other side at least 16:22:57 I want an even mix of draconian classes, but want them all to be purple 16:23:13 "nonbase purple draconian" 16:23:52 may I have some feedback on a pair of vaults, evilmike? 16:23:57 you should still have most of them be base purple draconians 16:24:27 having a couple employed ones is good. but if you look at the composition of draconian bands, you'll see that you only get a few of those, while most of the draconians are just regular ones 16:24:30 HangedMan: ok 16:25:06 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 16:25:08 -!- pantaril has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:25:29 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:25:47 HangedMan: i have to actually see them to give feedback... 16:25:52 http://pastebin.com/rZarh6Uq 16:26:02 sorry, was interrupted 16:26:07 heh 16:27:15 -!- vogonpoet has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:28:50 hangedman_zot_spectrum: some of the monster choices are a bit odd, but the vault seems fine. mainly, I think it's strange that a white draconian would hang out with white ugly things, when ice dragons exist 16:29:31 Ok, how do I make it so it's an 80% chance of a regular purple draconian, 20% of an employed purple draconian? 16:29:35 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:29:52 (also, employed? Did the others lose their jobs or something?) 16:30:00 purple draconian w:4 / nonbase purple draconian w:1 16:30:02 d - unemployed purple draconian 16:30:18 well, dragon-draconian pairing is already done in a bunch of vaults, and the vault seems too much with extra dragons around 16:30:35 The unemployed purple draconian shouts, "Occupy Zot! Down with the fatcat liches!" 16:30:37 well, zot, but 16:31:19 Actually, it's the fatcat Orb Guardians 16:31:21 HangedMan: it's done because it makes sense thematically (for draconians). if this vault is supposed to just be an elemental themed one, it's fine. but it does seem to have a clear draconian theme 16:31:48 the draconians are to tie it to zot 16:32:15 I think it might be possible for Zot to never spawn a single Orb of Fire. I've done it without ever seeing ancient liches or electric golems before... 16:32:22 HangedMan: yeah its not a big deal 16:32:27 mm 16:32:31 -!- yogidabear has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:33:47 Wait, are orb guardians ever spawned outside of the Halls of Zot themselves? 16:34:13 I could see one or two in a Zot entry vault... 16:34:16 hangedman_theft: weird vault, but that's the abyss for you. i suspect it will look like a mishmash of random monsters in-game, but that seems intentional 16:34:36 Lightli: orb guardians are for Zot:5 16:34:46 ok 16:34:52 it's nice to have a monster which is unique to the final level in game game 16:35:00 "game game"? 16:35:01 I'd keep them that way 16:35:06 orb mimic 16:35:20 Lightli: yes, i typed game twice. i dont know why. 16:35:23 ok 16:35:25 -!- ho has joined ##crawl-dev 16:36:10 ??orb mimic 16:36:10 I don't have a page labeled orb_mimic in my learndb. 16:36:52 the place:Foo stuff is a bit of an experiment with some ideas I have for abyss vaults that "stole" bits of the main dungeon, though in this case it seems to mostly make me annoyed place:Shoals places nothing because it tried to place a shark or elf is represented by fungi 16:37:16 don't use place:Foo then, just place random elves or whatever 16:37:21 sigh, yeah 16:37:56 there are reasons to use place:Foo, but it comes with drawbacks. for instance, if the monster set for that branch ever changes, your vault changes as well 16:37:58 Lightli: there's a dual orb chamber thing and sometimes one of the chambers can contain an orb mimic 16:38:01 (while the other contains the orb) 16:38:10 That sounds evil 16:38:17 !lg * killer=orb mimic 16:38:17 No games for * (killer=orb mimic). 16:38:19 indeed 16:38:21 :( 16:38:27 the guy who came up with that must have been an evil genius 16:39:09 Lightli: also, about zot entry vaults, they currently only contain draconians and dragons. the *really* insane stuff is locked inside zot. not that it has to be this way, but that's how the theme is currently 16:39:33 -!- chewymouse has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:39:34 well, grunt_profane_halls uses place:Zot:1 on d:27 16:39:49 So Zot was built to keep the truly crazy stuff out of the rest of the dungeon? 16:39:51 That's only directly adjacent to the portal. 16:39:55 yeah 16:40:50 Lightli: or maybe the dungeon was built on top of zot :P. No one really knows what zot is, it's just some weird place locked away underneath the dungeon 16:41:58 To be fair, imagine what the stuff down there would do if it got unleashed into the outside world. 16:41:58 It would be madness. 16:42:45 is zot really underneath the dungeon? 16:42:56 it's accessed by portal -- I always assumed it was a parallel dimension, akin to pan and so on 16:43:12 elliott: the description says it's part of the dungeon, yeah. it's not a parallel dimension 16:43:30 hm, ok 16:43:49 it's called a "gate" rather than a portal 16:44:35 -!- Guest42069 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:45:22 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:46:16 so Zot is an underground bunker that you could concievably dig to :P 16:46:33 The ceiling is permarock. 16:46:34 <_< 16:48:04 don't you mean 'the stuff that makes up Zot' 16:48:46 Pacra: zot just uses "rock wall", etc. You're probably thinking of pandemonium 16:49:15 use only the highest-quality Acme Stuff to build your infinite realms of pain and anguish 16:49:18 zotwall should be weird stuff as well :P 16:51:51 -!- hasufell has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:04 -!- syllogism has quit [] 16:57:14 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 16:57:34 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:03:32 i imagine they're ancient dark rock walls covered with magenta wires containing zot energy 17:03:41 (the stuff being radiated from the orb) 17:03:45 I imagine they're made out of paper. 17:04:00 think something like a high concentration of ley lines, on a wall 17:04:04 fr robots 17:04:07 Magically enchanted to have the same strength as rock, but still paper 17:04:17 How else could they get blue/purple walls? 17:04:22 paint 17:04:35 there's actually just a disco ball on the ceiling of zot 17:05:59 Who in their right mind would go into Zot just to paint the rock? 17:06:15 And if it was painted, digging it out would reveal regular colored rock 17:06:28 draconian decorators, obviously 17:06:58 Maybe they can change the color of dragon armour! 17:06:59 -!- fooobaar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:08:47 clearly all of those base draconians are just secretly employed in interior decorating or architecture and carpentry for rune vaults 17:09:13 fr: "draconian fortress" mode 17:13:52 http://pastebin.com/p44BDpr3 17:14:14 How awful is it? 17:14:35 for stuff like that, you usually dont need to make it square (unless you want this to be able to show up as a square room on the map) 17:14:56 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 17:15:25 -!- mdangers has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:16:06 also, using w:80 and w:20 isn't necessary. you can use w:4 and w:1, it does the same thing (this isn't a problem, but I feel like pointing it out) 17:16:10 -!- Vidiny has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:16:12 oh 17:16:12 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:16:15 -!- CaptainPickles has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:16:49 center island needs either no_rtele_into or a hatch to not strand people (though zot, I guess) 17:16:57 the default weight is 10, but if you're setting the numbers yourself, you can make them anything you want. 20/100 is the same as 1/5, obviously 17:17:31 just stick a down-hatch in the middle 17:18:14 also, there are quite a lot of draconians. you could do with half the number, I think 17:18:38 Aren't actual draconian packs around that size? 17:18:39 a line like "SUBST: 1 = 1." would do the trick 17:18:52 not really 17:18:53 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 17:20:05 you're placing 16 draconians. a regular pack is 4-7 draconians. tiamat can get a much larger pack 17:20:12 oh 17:20:39 heat problem is kinda gone 17:20:39 Napkin: You have 6 messages. Use !messages to read them. 17:20:50 just haven't had time to re-enable it yet 17:20:56 crawl access, that is 17:21:38 What was the heat problem anyways? 17:21:46 try now, kilobyte 17:22:07 their AC system not doing its job, i guess 17:22:55 -!- CannibalFerox has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:23:50 too much heat, probably :p 17:23:57 http://pastebin.com/iW0SjK6y 17:23:59 Is this better? 17:24:11 yes 17:24:17 wait no, there's a mistake 17:24:32 Where 17:24:36 "MONS: w:4 purple_draconian, w:1 nonbase_purple_draconian" is wrong. 17:24:43 it should be "MONS: w:4 purple_draconian / w:1 nonbase_purple_draconian 17:24:57 -!- Vidiny has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:24:58 oh 17:24:59 also don't use underscores 17:25:05 could it be a transparent vault? 17:25:18 yes 17:26:23 Lightli: you should reread syntax.txt, there's some very important differences between a comma and a slash 17:26:30 got it 17:27:04 (by "very important" I mean "they are completely different things") 17:27:10 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 17:27:13 -!- ZRN has quit [] 17:27:27 mixing ls and 1s is cruel 17:27:39 use a better font 17:27:53 or use larger font 17:28:01 Last question before I post it again; how good should the loot be? 17:28:33 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:28:45 what you have there is quite good. you could probably stand to place somewhat fewer '|' items 17:29:05 So **| for the o symbol would be better? 17:29:06 yeah you have 3 acquirement-level items on average there 17:29:19 Lightli: sure 17:29:34 It's just that even 17:29:39 | tends to suck sometimes. 17:29:47 yes 17:29:47 i should make another vault or two; the ones i submitted once were pretty fun 17:29:55 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:30:01 also here's one last thing to consider: lava generates a lot of smoke, obscuring vision. playtest this and see if that's how you want it. if the smoke bothers you, you can disable it 17:30:36 this is like zot's hellion island 17:31:01 oh I just noticed something else 17:31:09 the shape of the lava lake is really weird. it's much wider than it is tall 17:31:18 a player could walk up to the north or south parts of it and apport everything 17:32:17 yeah, the map looks designed for ascii, where character aspect ratios are rectangular 17:32:39 even ascii is a 1x1 grid though, and in cases like this, it's relevant to gameplay 17:34:17 if the point is to encourage players to take risks with levitation/flight, this map needs to fix the top/bottom parts. that might make it too large though... if so, it doesn't need to be a full island (maybe more of a crescent shape would do, with one side blocked by metal walls) 17:35:41 http://pastebin.com/wTWXUJ17 17:36:04 uh, thats asking me to type in a catchpa 17:36:09 ? 17:36:20 oops 17:36:25 Try it again 17:37:52 that size works. it does seem quite large though 17:38:34 something i was thinking - what if it was half (or even a bit less) a lava lake, with one edge of the island using a wall? you could also put a window (undiggable) in the wall, to show players there is loot 17:39:03 that way the island isn't hidden, but they still need to fly if they're not an earth elementalist 17:39:19 Just make the window unaturally hard 17:39:37 you shouldn't use that unless it's necessary, and it's not here 17:39:41 (also, checked, it's a bit too large to see from the middle now) 17:40:05 er, bit too large to see period 17:40:19 Oh, and the smoke is getting in the way of LOS too much 17:40:29 if you use the wall idea (with a window), seeing the island won't be an issue 17:43:40 -!- raskol has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:43:51 http://pastebin.com/bD4BfHnC 17:43:54 Like this? 17:44:20 the 'x' should be 'c' or 'v', the 'm' should be 'n' 17:44:26 got it 17:44:34 also, there should be a @ below the window to ensure that area is connected 17:45:12 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 17:45:26 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:45:32 Done that. Anything else, or should I submit it to mantis for people to complain about it there 17:45:52 -!- rkd2 has quit [] 17:45:56 (And I guess what noodl said is right; it's Hellion Island done Zot style 17:46:26 i can't think of anything at the moment 17:47:14 sorry for making this so complicated for you. it will get easier the more vaults you make 17:47:27 I know. 17:47:33 TO MANTIS 17:47:46 you might want to try making simpler stuff for earlier parts of the game. when you have a complicated idea like this, for a high level area, you're basically diving straight into the deep end 17:47:57 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 17:49:19 -!- minced has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:50:01 Got it. 17:51:03 03kilobyte 07layout * rc421251a2d7d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (libutil.h main.cc termsize.cc): Display the map properly on terminal widths < 80. 17:51:04 03kilobyte 07layout * r11ea922a64a9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dgn-dragon.cc dgn-dragon.h main.cc): A generator based on the dragon curve. 17:51:30 Wait, should it be no_tele_into as well, to prevent people from just control-teleporting into the vault and getting the loot that way? 17:51:53 Lightli: no_tele_into should be used _very_ sparingly, in my opinion. no_rtele_into is almost always better 17:52:02 Or should we just leave that possibility alone in the hopes that people won't think of it until after they've died from lava drowning 17:52:05 -!- farkougg has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:52:08 but in this case, I'd say neither is needed. just toss a down-hatch in there 17:52:56 Replaced a draconian with a down hatch 17:53:36 the thing with no_rtele_into, is you can make a disconnected area safe, in a way that's invisible to the player 17:54:04 no_tele_into, on the other hand, will directly block the player from teleporting there, with a message 17:54:09 With no_tele_into, the player WILL notice that something is up if they can't teleport in 17:54:13 I get it 17:54:45 the real problem is, you can't actually see that the area is no-teleport until *after* you try to do it. so, it's often a spoiler issue 17:55:00 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:55:25 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:55:29 I think no_tele_into shouldn't exist at all 17:55:48 i should get around to making a web-based tiles interface for vault creation. have there been plans for something like that before? 17:56:17 ^I would pay you money for this. 17:56:27 haha 17:56:37 no_tele_into might be useful for places the player is strictly not meant to get into (like mimics on display), but that's it 17:57:01 yeah 17:57:09 nooodl: such an interface can't do anything but static vaults 17:57:09 the thing is... the tiles userbase is huge, so there's probably a whole bunch of people who have some creative ideas for vaults, but no way to express them as they're uncomfortable with ascii 17:57:17 Wouldn't the fact that all of them were mimics make it so you couldn't teleport in anyways? 17:57:33 kilobyte: it's going to be more complex than that 17:57:57 even basic SUBST is hard to imagine in a GUI 17:58:10 infiniplex made a simple gui for vault editing 17:58:37 i've said before, i think a visual editor would be bad for anything complex. but for simple map editing, it could be handy 17:58:55 evilmike: what'd he write it in? 17:59:00 also, where can i find it 17:59:37 nooodl: search for it on the tavern, he linked it there. I think it was javascript, but I could be wrong 17:59:42 oh http://infiniplix.ca/applets/vault_editor.html 18:00:16 oh, it's java 18:00:25 !tell bh you may want to take a look at my take at the dragon curve (on git, branch "layout"). The map should be centered, also many values of "mask" make little sense (current HEAD picks one randomly w/o excludes). 18:00:25 kilobyte: OK, I'll let bh know. 18:01:11 -!- ark____ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:02:14 anyway, i don't see any problems with things like SUBST at all 18:03:13 what you'd do is... make some "user-definable" tiles, which can be set up to be arguments to a SUBST line by right-clicking them or something 18:03:15 purple draconian (06d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 84-115 | AC/EV: 8/10 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, cold-blooded, !sil | Res: 06magic(149) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1601 | Sp: b.quicksilver (3d20) | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 18:03:15 %?purple draconian 18:03:31 !tell bh on the other hand, circle-packing seems to suck halfling balls, because a circle after pixellation connects to its neighbour in silly ways. Making the radius like 1-2 smaller and adding artificial corridors might work, though. 18:03:36 kilobyte: OK, I'll let bh know. 18:03:51 from there you can just select the other tiles (and optionally, weights) you want it to be SUBST'ed into 18:04:28 Also, could spriggan druids get a bit of a nerf? Their sunrays ignore AC and can't be resisted, while dealing more damage than a hellion's hellfire. To say nothing of awaken forest. 18:06:59 nooodl: simple use of SUBST isn't too tricky. it's where you combine several of those, NSBUSTS, a few SHUFFLE lines, etc... most vaults never reach this level of complexity, bug big ones can 18:07:55 it gets even harder when you start directly using Lua in vaults, instead of relying on the des syntax 18:07:59 heh, bug big ones 18:08:01 Lightli: a rebalance is planned, but 1. they're meant for places far deeper than the Lair (and you can't really have a single monster fit for both early midgame and lowest D), and 2. there's some disagreement about beams and ac/gdr 18:08:19 i should take a look at the different vault commands 18:08:28 either way it's not going to support lua 18:08:31 oh 18:08:41 New Zot Vault (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6119) by Lightli 18:08:41 (the kind of people who would program vaults in lua would use ascii anyway) 18:09:12 nooodl: keep in mind, the des files are directly parsed into lua, it's not even that different from the des files 18:09:28 also, EV quite doesn't make sense for continuous effects. I think I have an idea how to handle it (basically, using apply_chunked_AC() and passing it EV as if it was AC, for an attack of 1 damage) 18:10:03 that'd effectively make EV add up with AC, but it's hard to come up with a better way 18:10:21 nooodl: like, "MONS: orc" is just mons("orc")" 18:10:32 continuous effects? you mean like clouds? 18:10:39 yeah, but i can safely ignore that. the editor just outputs MAP, ENDMAP, and .des-specific commands, and those get converted by crawl 18:11:23 nooodl: how would this editor handle save/loading -- its own intermediate format? 18:11:25 *saving 18:11:58 good AC halves damage, good EV can get rid of 90% attacks. This works only because once in 100 swings you'd get hit for full amount twice in a row and, if it was something nasty, you're screwed up, but that won't help with many small attacks. 18:12:20 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 18:12:24 kilobyte: just saw your messages 18:12:45 elliott: i'm thinking .des files with some metadata in comments (i.e. which graphics to represent user-defined tiles with) 18:12:58 Really? I thought good EV had diminishing returns 18:13:18 parsing .des files shouldn't be too hard, especially if you know you're restricting yourself to a simpler subset of it 18:13:22 that Bailey circle packing vault was designed by hand to look right, I have problems getting anything decent without further constraints 18:13:56 kilobyte: can I pass parameters to layout or do I need to recompile? 18:14:15 bh: currently recompile 18:14:28 (it doesn't have to be able to import complex ascii vaults, or any vaults at all that aren't created with the UI) 18:14:53 bh: it can use only a single layout at a time, too, requiring changing main.cc 18:15:19 -!- Xiberia has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 18:15:19 I think an editor should mostly be used for a sort of "first draft" anyway. anyone who wants their vaults added to crawl should still go over the final version in a text editor 18:16:04 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 18:16:06 what's layout_nolithius? 18:17:22 bh: something mostly Perlin based, with an additional layer of a fuzzy border 18:17:52 sucks for generating a binary layout, good for a height map 18:18:20 I found a Perlin function that works sort of well for continuous maps. 18:18:43 It's like fractional Brownian motion, but multiply instead of adding, with each successive octave value computed at: 18:19:03 (2^n + noise - 1)/2^n 18:21:03 there's one use of Perlin that produces ok binary results: having a basic shape generated some other way (must have several units of thickness), blurring it into height map, adding perlin (with amplitude < 1), applying a binary threshold, dropping parts not connected with the basic shape 18:21:04 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:21:29 similar to that 3D arch on the original Perlin's paper 18:21:44 kilobyte: which generator does a dragon curve? Grepping for 'dragon' turns up nothing 18:21:45 -!- purge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:22:20 bh: dgn-dragon.cc, layout_dragon() 18:22:40 oh. My rebase failed! 18:22:56 -!- ZebTM has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:23:01 bh: if you have any fun experiments, share! 18:23:16 that branch is a dumping ground for layout generators anyway 18:23:26 including ones that suck like a Vax 18:23:35 -!- hasufell has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:24:02 -!- daftfad has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25:36 kilobyte: http://i.imgur.com/BowfC.png -- I don't think this will work for crawl, but the principle might be useful 18:26:28 what about some kind of height-map thing that is used to generate multiple successive levels? 18:26:33 with stairs between them 18:26:39 no concrete suggestions, though :) 18:27:02 elliott: cute idea. It would (outside of crawl...) be really easy to do 18:27:06 -!- tsn has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:27:07 What's this about layouts? 18:27:14 This sounds like fun. 18:27:45 I occasionally wonder if there are other "basic shapes" like layout_cross, _bigger_room, and (to a some degree) _octagon would be enough for a new layout 18:27:46 * Grunt investigates the relevant branch... 18:28:18 those do get potentially samey but they're also wonderfully simple 18:28:35 I've never looked at the real crawl layout code. If it exposed an interface that consumed a point in space and returned a dungeon tile we could add all sorts of crazy layout generators 18:28:36 that dragon curve one is mostly an one-trick pony, as it has no randomization at all (and only certain masks are good enough), but might be good enough for a rare layout 18:28:36 speaking of layouts, has anyone else had a look at the new_vaults_layout branch? I think the major bugs in it are gone now, thanks to grunt 18:29:21 could make it a layout that doesn't have the allow_dup tag 18:29:39 kilobyte: I'll have a look once I unbreak my repo. 18:30:10 bh: I understand that you have ideas of your own there, right? 18:30:12 -!- UnknownUser has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:30:14 Implicit ammo: Implemented. 18:31:25 kilobyte: with generic layout generation or getting more interesting dragon curves? 18:31:46 http://www.iquilezles.org/www/articles/warp/warp.htm -- this is a good technique that makes everything look nicer 18:34:03 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:30 doesn't seem applicable to Crawl, though: way too small resolution 18:36:05 I'll see if I can change your mind. 18:36:55 rat (07r) | Spd: 15 | HD: 1 | HP: 2-6 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Dam: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 18:36:55 %? rat perm_ench:berserk 18:37:02 rat (07r) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Dam: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 18:37:02 %? rat 18:37:14 Oh no, a whole two extra HP! 18:37:14 Enemies that ar berserked dont' even get more raw damage? 18:37:29 At maximum 18:37:31 stone giant (15C) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 69-108 | AC/EV: 12/2 | Dam: 45 | 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(85), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2034 | Sz: Huge | Int: normal. 18:37:31 %??stone giant 18:37:33 stone giant (15C) | Spd: 15 | HD: 16 | HP: 104-162 | AC/EV: 12/2 | Dam: 45 | 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(85), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2034 | Sz: Huge | Int: normal. 18:37:33 %??stone giant perm_ench:berserk 18:37:34 It could be a whole ONE extra HP 18:37:47 I think that it just doesn't show up in that context. 18:38:41 some of these dragon curve layouts are great. Others are absolute shit :) (as you had noted) 18:39:35 quite a few of good ones are littered with a regular pattern of 1x1 pillars, it may be good to post-process them away 18:41:25 -!- fooobaar has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:41:35 d5, for example, is a nice one 18:42:01 for the problem of some layouts taking only half of the space or less, it could be enough to, instead of 80x70, prepare the fractal in 159x139 and shift the view window if it'd have waste areas on one side 18:43:41 kilobyte: perlin(int, int, int) makes me sad :) 18:44:40 heh, that one seems to sit near the origin for lots of time. I suspected most layouts would either leave the window quickly or loop forever, that 0xd5 looks like it takes more than that 26208 iterations... 18:45:43 that magic number applies to mask of 1, too... and for a square window more than twice the size, but blah 18:46:11 there's no obvious termination rule anyway 18:46:22 -!- Vidiny has quit [Quit: In the time it takes for a woman to get ready, the weather is almost guaranteed to change.] 18:47:05 kilobyte: you'll get better results in generating fBM if you rotate your coordinates about some arbitrary axis at each step 18:47:18 otherwise you'll get axis aligned artifacts 18:47:29 bh: that's the problem with ideas you mention: they look great for non-quantized coordinates, bad for highly quantized ones 18:47:35 yep. 18:48:53 !rng make_another_vault DCSS Fio 18:48:53 The RNG chooses: Fio. 18:48:59 welp 18:49:02 wrong channel 18:51:18 double welp 18:53:27 bh: I'm wimpying out for today, but if you have any semi-usable layouts, send them in 18:53:46 there's a lot of post-processing can do 18:54:05 kilobyte: will do. I, however, loathe post-processing 18:54:27 heck, a good deal of main layouts do something like draw a cross and then post-process it beyond recognition 18:55:02 I experimented with defining weights on terrain types and then combining layouts with max/min 18:55:04 post-processing sucks only if you want morphing; static layouts stay static 18:55:40 or if you can't generate the whole terrain/enough to be useful 18:56:50 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 18:56:52 !seen evilmike 18:56:52 I last saw evilmike at Sat Aug 25 23:56:20 2012 UTC (32s ago) saying which is better than 2 fireballs on ##crawl. 18:57:05 -!- StekarDraken has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:57:15 dpeg: Haran wrecked me at chess. 18:57:27 bh: I am not surprised :) 18:57:56 evilmike: strong language on the forum :) I absolutely agree on the topic (Lair subbranch rotation), but you're using language that I don't like when it's applied to us ("dumb" and "dense"). Did eeviac anger you? 18:58:22 no I've just heard the same argument about a dozen times now 18:58:33 I knew eeviac wouldn't be offended 18:58:34 ah, I know that feeling too 18:58:55 it makes you (or at least made me) lose manners at times :) 18:58:59 good about eeviac 19:01:05 bh: I think I have heard Haran mention he's a Chess player (probably when I mentioned Go). 19:02:05 I think his Elo is ~1700 19:02:31 there's a guy on my floor at work with a peak Elo of something stupid like 2200+ 19:02:31 That means he takes Chess serious :) 19:03:03 * dpeg just came home from his Go teacher (lost by five points, grrr). 19:03:21 2280! 19:03:45 dpeg: Are you in Germany these days or traveling the world? 19:04:55 Germany, mostly Berlin (like now) and Hannover. Will you be around? 19:05:08 You could win a game of Chess against me, if you want :) 19:05:16 there's a tiny chance I'll be by Munich 19:06:08 I ask because 2am is a late game of Go 19:07:05 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:07:17 oh, today we had the "Fuck Parade", so afterwards I visited him; we played between 9 pm and midnight, after that, I still had to go home 19:08:11 Fuck Parade? 19:08:14 Do I even want to know? 19:08:15 * dpeg wonders how strange Fuck Parade sounds to a native speaker 19:08:29 Lightli: it was invented as a counter-movement to the Berlin Love Parade 19:08:35 oh 19:08:37 On particular, it has much better music :) 19:08:52 And in contrast to the love parade, it is still going strong. 19:09:04 erm, i <--> o mismatch tinoght 19:10:18 dpeg: really, really strange :P 19:10:33 It seems like a number of my friends have been leaving town to go to Burning Man, which seems to me like a very unpleasant time. 19:10:59 evilmike: hehe, the other day we played a card game called Bang (about the Wild West), and when I said "let's start the banging", all the native speakers behaved strangely :) 19:12:14 bh: says a lot about your social environment 19:12:52 I live in a cultural and social wasteland. 19:14:14 funny, given that if I climbed a tree I could see Stanford 19:14:30 -!- PollyEsther has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:15:10 evilmike: thanks for additional reply to eeviac. Even if he won't be offended, it's good for the bystanders. 19:16:56 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 19:17:19 -!- Glenstorm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:21:19 -!- fungee has quit [] 19:21:37 -!- Pepe has quit [Client Quit] 19:23:07 -!- Dixie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:23:29 dpeg: yeah I can be meaner than I should be :P. Silly thing is I'm not bothered by bad opinions or stuff like that... but bad arguments (even when supporting a conclusion I agree with) tick me off for some reason 19:23:34 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 19:24:04 evilmike: yesterday on ##crawl someone suggested making a re-themed version of Elf as Sludge Elf. What say you? 19:24:32 bh: I don't understand. Elf as in the Elf branch? 19:24:54 evilmike: no sweat, I just saw it and wanted to ask how you meant it. And at least for me, having to explain the same thing time and again really did get on my nervers (this is one of the reasons why I wrote up so much, but that didn't really help) 19:25:01 evilmike: right. Elf branch, but redone to be full of (presently absent) Sludge Elf monsters 19:25:20 So Sludge Elf transmuters? 19:25:23 oh god 19:25:29 bh: a new branch is a lot of work. If someone has a concept, discusses it etc. .... sure 19:25:35 bh: I think the branch works better as a Deep Elf branch... the Elf:$ monsters work particularly well, I think 19:25:50 ??deep elf 19:25:50 deep elf[1/1]: Best int, awesome aptitudes "!apt DE" to see those awesome apts. Relative to puny humans, gains 1 less hp per lvl up to level 17, *and* 1 less hp per 3 levels, but 1 extra mp per level. Gains +1 int every 4 levels. 19:25:54 I also don't imagine Sludge elves as living in halls, really. I think they're supposed to be from the jungle 19:26:20 evilmike: true. I also think taht the "deep" versions of player species should be found in the dungeon. 19:28:16 dpeg: I'm imagining blind octopodes! 19:28:45 bh: rl octopodes have extremely good eyesight, I believe 19:29:08 deep elves do appear in D, just rarely 19:29:53 while elf:$ is pretty good the floors before it have been cut twice, though... 19:30:19 high level elves could be a bit more common in late D, but adjusting this stuff is pointless at the moment 19:31:21 HangedMan: by "dungeon" I meant the whole Crawl world. 19:31:54 I'd advocate lots of minor tweaks to late D, really, the omnipresence of c and C (or certain specific ones) is pretty bleh 19:32:04 I think that monster dwarves should be "deep dwarves", monster elves "deep elves" (and that's all we have atm). This is because the character enters from the overworld and goes down. 19:32:08 oh god. I hate yaktaurs 19:32:26 * dpeg advocates shrinking base D level sizes. 19:32:40 well, if I remember correctly all monster orcs are implied to be cave orcs 19:32:43 -!- Guest42069 has quit [] 19:32:56 late D seems fine to me, I don't think smaller levels would help a whole lot there 19:33:25 HangedMan: yes, they are -- another fine example. (Which gives a bit of religious flavour, for those who care.) 19:33:25 it has tons of interesting vaults now, the level variety is a lot higher than it used to be.. if we can make the monster set more varied that would also be a big improvement 19:33:43 yeah, I meant late D monster sets 19:33:49 Speaking of monster set variety, I recall there being some talk of overhauling mon-pick. 19:34:19 yeah, i was alluding to that when i said it would be pointless to change that stuff at the moment 19:34:41 since, if it's being overhauled, it makes sense to tweak stuff after that happens, not before 19:35:21 I'm wondering what sort of an impact that would have on not only late D, but other boring monster sets such as Vaults. 19:35:34 (Especially, in te latter case, in the context of the new Vaults layouts.) 19:35:40 evilmike: I came up with shrinking levels for three reasons: (a) diversity (you see that something happens while you go down); (b) faster exploration (less tedium); (c) more challenge. Any of these (still) worth it? 19:36:31 Later levels are currently more challenging and more diverse than they were when you first proposed that 19:36:40 what a pity :) 19:36:59 so that leaves (b)... but in my opinion, the most tedious part of the game is the middle Dungeon (and I think the main sore spot is the Vaults branch) 19:37:20 At least my concept of convergence within a branch is used elsewhere (Slime and Spider have something like it). 19:37:49 oh, and new Vaults will too 19:37:56 Grunt: right? 19:38:13 I'm not sure off the top of my head what you mean. 19:38:17 that part will help yes. the crypt is still awful though 19:39:02 Grunt: that depth within a branch affects the level (not just in monster set). For example, Slime wall damage; Shoals island sizes; Spider webs (is that true?). 19:39:08 Oh. 19:39:11 Yes, it is true. 19:39:18 I really like it if a branch has something like this. 19:39:25 all the lair subbrances except for snake have a mechanic like that 19:39:29 The Vaults layout that infiniplex did up varies hallway widths and room sizes as a function of depth. 19:39:36 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:39:39 -!- daftfad has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:42 I called it "branch convergence" because I'm a mathematician :O 19:39:59 Grunt: cool, sounds good 19:40:08 -!- scwizard has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:41:36 morning 19:42:03 -!- KKCryptic has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:42:19 Hi due! Seriously brainstorming random gods with nicolae these days. I am so excited :) 19:42:46 Grunt: btw, there's stuff that could be improved with the monster set(s) without really touching mon-pick... like deep troll bands 19:43:13 I focus on those because they're uninteresting and common 19:43:45 evilmike: didn't we discuss leaders for those bands the other day? 19:44:05 yeah, there are enough ideas for something workable 19:45:04 evilmike: do you keep track? I am still horrified by the idea of losing ideas but I am less duteous about making notes. 19:45:34 The basic two ideas I've heard several times are to have a "shaman" type who buffs the rest of the party and, probably, an earth elementalist type. 19:45:57 there's a question of what their spell lists would look like 19:46:07 the earth elementalist concept is "LRD, and some other stuff" 19:46:29 The natural (evil?) complement to LRD would be Petrify. :b 19:46:29 I'd love to have a monster (in a band would be good) that uses digging offensively -- is that feasible? 19:46:50 We'd need to work out the "how and where to dig" logic, I think. 19:46:51 yeah, just give dig back to cacodemons 19:46:54 Sure, it'd just have to know where the player is (homing). 19:47:01 That's how cacodemons used to work 19:47:07 A different take on anti-tunnel tactics than slime creatures. 19:47:22 I think smarter enemies with dig should widen hallways if they are blocked in them 19:47:40 You could also make rock worms more common if this if for anti-tunnel things 19:47:48 *if this is 19:47:48 evilmike: the cool bit about a band monster is that dig would creater space for the rest of the party 19:47:52 ugh. rockworms are scary! 19:47:58 rock worms are pretty annoying to fight in large numbers too 19:48:02 dtsund: yes, but I don't know if rock worms live up to it. Do they? 19:48:11 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:48:25 a deep troll earth elementalist that widens hallways would be nice. them + shamans would work together nicely with plain deep trolls 19:48:27 Well, you can't hurt them inside walls, so they do force you into the open 19:48:37 dtsund: I think that slime creatures fulfilled the intention quite well. 19:48:42 Perhaps there could be a unique EE with Summon Rock Worms 19:48:45 dtsund: oh, I did fight them. 19:48:53 evilmike: yeah 19:49:20 Pigpen the Mudmancer? 19:49:23 It would always appear in congested terrain, of course 19:49:52 so a deep troll earth elementalist would have LRD, dig (with better AI), and probably a conj spell or two 19:50:16 I'd prefer stone arrow over heavier stuff I think 19:50:25 I think they should hold off on conj, late D has lots ranged stuff already 19:50:35 dpeg: awesome :D 19:51:30 st_: I guess so. with only LRD and dig in the spell set, it's going to cast those spells a lot though 19:51:41 due: brainstorming "trademark powers" for random gods at this very moment. (Goals: easy to code, strong so that a player might pick up the god for it, easy enough to explain in a word or at most sentence.) Any spontaneous ideas? 19:52:24 evilmike: could have melee spell, though I don't know if it's desired to have more stuff use that 19:52:29 Slight passive movement speed boost 19:52:40 evilmike: what about fog? 19:52:49 dtsund: thx 19:52:58 bh: not really suitable on an earth elementalist 19:53:00 dtsund: or is this for the shaman? 19:53:13 evilmike: 'dust clouds'? 19:53:16 evilmike: but it's a good idea... anti-caster stuff is cool 19:53:19 I meant as a signature power for a god 19:53:21 st_: the "melee" spell is a weird hack, but it does its job (padding out spell lists) 19:54:03 Greater LOS range 19:54:15 dtsund: tricky, I believe 19:54:16 ...no, wait, that wouldn't work with Crawl's code. 19:54:20 yes 19:54:21 greater los range also increases monster LOS 19:54:30 even if it didn't, the AI wouldn't handle it properly afaik 19:54:32 * dtsund got confused with DoomRl for a moment 19:54:42 (I think it'd just flail around letting you fire at it until it dies?) 19:54:58 good for speedruns, though! fewer turns to explore 19:55:13 the deep troll shaman would be in the role of casting buffs, and probably healing on fellow deep trolls. giving it anti-caster stuff would be bad (if we're going to have casters in their parties) 19:55:14 elliott: shouldn't think of conducts when designing :) 19:55:23 Doubled potion effects 19:55:47 evilmike: but fog is a protective cover for the other trolls 19:55:52 dpeg: well, low turns is a rather privileged conduct, thanks to score :) but I was kidding 19:56:08 dpeg: fog effects help the player more than monsters 19:56:08 dtsund: e.g. might + magic? 19:56:09 by far 19:56:10 what might be cool for shamans or other mage type band leaders is "band recall" 19:56:17 evilmike: ah, sorry then 19:56:27 dpeg: More like !hw is twice as powerful, !might lasts twice as long, etc 19:56:34 give orc priests band recall instead of demon summoning please. orc sorcerors already have that! 19:56:35 orc high priests could have that too 19:56:44 dtsund: nice... 19:56:46 the thing is, monsters aren't smart enough to deal with fog (e.g. they don't use ranged attacks through it) 19:57:12 If that's not powerful enough, could extend to wands 19:57:13 http://pastebin.com/pdZNMLKe 19:57:14 evilmike: yes, I see. So dig will benefit them much better. 19:57:19 Have a minivault here for people to yell at 19:57:32 monqy: I have been thinking of making a patch to remove summons from orc guys, and do some more stuff for orc:4 19:57:51 So no more demon spam from sorcerors and high priests? 19:57:58 dtsund: writing this email to nicolae right now: do you want credits for your ideas, or are you happy to just have them in the list? 19:58:05 That nerfs Beogh! 19:58:12 Lightli: don't call it a beekeeper. look at what summon swarm actually summons... it's biblical plague type stuff 19:58:13 Eh, I don't care that much either way 19:58:19 oh 19:58:49 dtsund: thank you... I'll mention you when/if we make the proposal public. 19:58:54 Potion-sharing with allies 19:59:03 (You can borrow Light's code for that if you want) 19:59:20 Proposal for what? 19:59:25 dtsund: all potions you quaff also apply to all allies (in sight?) ? 19:59:29 Lightli: random gods 19:59:36 that sounds awesome 19:59:39 godscum! 19:59:48 Well, in Light, it's radius 3, for followers of Beogh with sufficient piety. 19:59:50 Wait, completely random? No more Vehumet or Oka or the like? 19:59:56 Lightli: it's a lot of work... we're trying to come up with a very basic but working proposal. 20:00:11 Lightli: in addition to the fixed gods. No way we're throwing out our gods. 20:00:17 horray 20:00:40 dtsund: I never knew... you're forcing me to play light, or at least to read all changelogs :O 20:00:52 -!- Domiano has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:01:03 Even implemented !resistance for monsters so that you can share that with them... I don't think anyone's played Beogh to Zot since that got added, but I'd imagine it'd be very useful there. 20:01:05 what's the standard way of getting an iterator over the whole dungeon floor? 20:01:53 dpeg: Changelog, uh, hasn't really been updated since 0.1... 20:02:00 omg 20:02:18 dtsund: nice... really befits Beogh play, imo- 20:02:30 However, you can sort of see most of the stuff that isn't in Stone Soup here: https://github.com/dtsund/crawl-light/wiki/Crawl-light-0.2-near-term-planning 20:02:36 Most of that's been implemented. 20:02:42 thank you 20:02:54 Er, not listed: Brogue-style monster interlevel following. 20:03:08 dtsund: already have that? How does it playß 20:03:32 Well, it's harder to escape without items 20:03:51 obviously ... it doesn't distort gameplay? 20:03:52 So I gave all starting players a ?tele and a !agility to compensate (!agility now grants swiftness) 20:03:59 rewrote this page to keep it up to date: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:creatures:deep_trolls 20:04:12 Well, it was necessary; food removal made mummystabbing boring yet optimal for all players 20:04:36 evilmike: <3 20:04:43 I don't think it distorts things *that* much, though. 20:06:37 dtsund: will you take the Shoals reform from vanilla? 20:06:56 Er, how did vanilla reform Shoals? 20:07:07 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:07:19 I'm not sure if it'd conflict with Light's Shoals reform 20:07:21 exploration 20:07:37 -!- ajikeshi__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07:47 In Light, Shoals tides now only alternate between shallow and land, so any square that can be traversed can always be traversed. 20:08:13 ah 20:08:29 Additionally, tides were sped up by a factor of 30 and merfolk were given attack bonus against floundering players (but made somewhat weaker on land). 20:08:51 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:09:17 The idea is that you have to keep track of tides for tactical purposes; if you're not careful, you can very suddenly find yourself in both water and trouble, as the tides are capable of outrunning you. 20:09:28 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 20:09:37 I don't agree that vanilla is "designed for expert players" but we probably already talked about that 20:10:19 That may have been phrased with excessive terseness; I think the problem is more subtle than that 20:11:20 The problem is that beginners and experts have to play the same game until very late, which doesn't lend the design to accomodating both 20:11:47 -!- Chozo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:12:00 species are not even in difficulty, for example 20:12:04 let alone combinations 20:13:00 * dtsund suspects we've had this conversation before 20:13:13 (great idea on rune effects, btw) 20:13:43 Unfortunately, the only one of those that's implemented is Abyss, and I don't even know what to do for Snake 20:14:26 -!- ho has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:14:57 dtsund: this might be indirectly related to Snake having no branch effect 20:15:15 (if it had, like the other Lair subbranches, we'd know what to do) 20:15:23 But of course. 20:16:51 Is anyone here apart from dtsund reading Crawl-light-0.2-near-term-planning (or actually playing Light)? If not, I'd compile a list with Light ideas to be used for vanilla. (Long live forks!) 20:17:10 I follow the commit log but dont pay attention to stuff besides that 20:17:24 (If you want to play it, you can telnet to rawrmage's server at dashify.me) 20:18:07 http://pastebin.com/TaTQXgRn 20:18:13 Take 2 for the minivault 20:18:21 dtsund: thx. evilmike: so making a list could be useful anyway? 20:18:48 I am sure dtsund won't be sad to see some of his items come up in vanilla either. 20:18:59 Certainly not! 20:19:04 -!- ddubois_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:19:49 there's at least one thing that's made it in, I'm rather fond of the way the abyss rune works in light as well. If light comes up with other good rune effects I'll probably like those too 20:20:03 Rune effects? 20:20:19 there was also an autosacrifice patch he submitted, but DCSS wound up getting its own (different) autosacrifice implementation 20:20:35 evilmike: was that vanilla --> light propagation, or the other way around? Or no propagation yet? 20:20:46 evilmike: To my recollection, the Light things that have been imported are the halo 'tile' and spell success as percentage 20:20:55 it wasn't really autosacrifice, it was full-LOS sacrifice 20:21:08 Lightli: picking up a rune should do *something* within the branch (e.g. slimy rune --> no more acidic walls) 20:21:28 Oh. What would the abyssal rune do? 20:21:37 That gives you an Abyss exit. 20:21:45 That is awesome 20:21:47 It's the only one that's already implemented, actually. 20:21:51 true 20:21:54 it is also a good one 20:22:03 Implemented where? In actual Crawl? 20:22:14 in Crawl Light, dtsund's fork 20:22:14 Lightli: Crawl Light 20:22:14 (if so, the abyss will never be annoying to get the rune ever again) 20:22:16 oh 20:22:24 Would calling the lair ruiner on an already-existing floor do Bad Things? 20:22:33 dpeg: I think a list would be useful, but imo that should be the crawl light changelog :P 20:22:51 -!- Domiano has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:58 -!- Domiano_ is now known as Domiano 20:23:04 evilmike: well, given the good ideas on dtsund's list (at least many of them :), and the lack of a changelog, I'll see what I can do about a list. 20:23:15 I assume there will be a changelog whenever the next major release is 20:23:25 Oh, definitely. 20:23:38 ah 20:23:46 it's hard enough to keep our own changelog up to date 20:24:21 evilmike: also, we will not want all of Light's changes 20:24:29 Heh 20:24:30 oh of course 20:24:37 the stuff in light that interests me is the smaller things 20:24:57 crawl light has a lot of radical (and interesting, too) stuff that I can't really see in DCSS, which is more conservative 20:25:23 So we need an annotated changelog, and we cannot expect dtsund to annotate it :) 20:25:43 -!- VideoGames has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:26:09 I may as well start the changelog anyway, probably 20:26:30 Next release isn't *that* far away, I've done most of the features I want in it 20:26:51 And since there's a lot of imported commits from SS, it'll take a while to sort it out 20:27:05 dtsund: does Light get any discussion (forum etc.)? SA etc. don't mention it, which is a shame. 20:27:09 -!- Domiano has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:39 Not much. I'd kind of decided not to promote it much until 0.2 came around. 20:28:10 There are one or two things that direly need to be fixed before I do so; the tutorial is badly out of date. 20:28:43 http://pastebin.com/5Eahpyya 20:28:46 It... still teaches you about eating and identification. 20:28:52 Swarm using kobold: TAKE 3 20:28:52 hehe 20:29:24 @??kobold hd:10 20:29:35 kobold (07K) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 21-46 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 4 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(13) | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 524 | Sz: small | Int: normal. 20:29:35 %??kobold hd:10 20:29:47 big kobold (08K) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 39-69 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Dam: 7 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(40) | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 509 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 20:29:47 %??big kobold hd:10 20:29:48 dtsund: I believe that Light would be worthy of a CDO news/blog (I never which is which) entry. Speak up if you want one, and if you want to write it (else I can do it). 20:29:58 +know 20:30:12 That'd be appreciated! 20:30:45 I still believe you'll get most feedback if Light makes it to the main servers. 20:30:57 I've contemplated starting a Tavern thread about it... 20:31:03 -!- Snowclone has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:31:05 yes, also good 20:31:40 Best to start low and then buff later 20:31:49 Does it look good? 20:32:45 Lightli: what if instead of a custom kobold, it was a monster with a rod of summoning? 20:33:00 (that has summon swarm, and it would have a nice effect of doubling as loot) 20:33:13 How do I do that? 20:33:23 * Lightli is embarassed 20:33:41 you can give monsters items like this: "orc ; rod of summoning" 20:33:48 or "orc ; wand of fire". etc 20:34:04 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:45 -!- frogbotherer has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:51 thanks 20:35:13 you should pick something with higher HP than a kobold, though 20:35:32 A troll? 20:35:58 trolls aren't item users 20:36:03 quite some distance between kobold and troll 20:36:07 That too 20:36:26 Centaur? 20:36:45 I was thinking ogre, myself. maybe hill giant 20:37:07 I'll go with the ogre. 20:37:22 If everyone thinks it's too easy, we can upgrade it to a hill giant later 20:37:41 you can use different monsters at different depths 20:39:04 How do I do that? 20:39:42 Lightli: this is done in a number of vaults... search for "elsif" in des files 20:39:50 look at lemuel_castle.des for an example of a vault that uses this extensively 20:39:50 got it 20:40:13 actually maybe thats a bad example, since it also uses subvaults 20:41:37 anyway, they pretty much all use the same technique 20:41:45 you mean elseif 20:41:57 : if you.absdepth() < foo then 20:42:01 MONS: whatever 20:42:04 : end 20:42:26 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 20:42:34 Lightli: quite some time since I used it, perhaps 20:43:44 -!- alefury has quit [] 20:45:49 -!- chewymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 20:46:49 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:48:47 Testing it; keep getting an error 20:49:54 read all the documentation, they tell you how to do this 20:50:26 .des:305: 'end' expected (to close 'if' at line 2) near '(eof)' 20:50:51 I want the remaining two to be independent of the absolute deoth 20:51:08 *depth 20:51:45 -!- Yen has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:51:49 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: late here] 20:52:18 it might help if you read (I believe) advanced.txt, which tells you a bit about how des files are parsed 20:53:26 in fact, I believe the very first section of that file tells you how to do what you want 20:55:25 ..oh, haha, the example it gives has it conditionalizing based on player xl. Never do that :P 20:55:34 using depth, absdepth, etc, is ok though 20:55:55 -!- dptr1988 has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:56:51 evilmike: how about making the orb run harder based on how many runes you have? 20:58:29 bh: don't really like the idea. i don't like the orb run as it currently is, i feel the difficulty is very arbitrary, too random and often stupid. making it harder (if we keep the current system) would only increase the stupid part 20:59:10 in my last two runs, I found it much easier than, say, Tomb:3 20:59:30 It can do things like spawn a pan lord, with a band of liches, within LOS (!!), and then randomly decide to gimp your ability to teleport/blink 21:00:12 Or two pan lords in LOS 21:00:27 usually you're just wading through hordes of hell hounds and junk like that, of course 21:00:33 Or, if you stole his rune without killing him, a band of liches and Cerebov 21:00:44 I didn't get any Panlords during my last run. 21:00:52 I sat around on D:1 for a while hoping that one would turn up 21:00:56 it's quite random 21:01:23 I've won a lot of games, sometimes I get none or hardly any. Other times it feels like they happen every other level 21:01:54 in my prior run, I encountered six, and I suspect I didn't see any panlords from very long in my run before that (spriggan) 21:02:25 I've never actually died on the orb run, or feel like it's that difficult... my problem is that they way it does the difficulty is lousy 21:02:45 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:02:54 I've died once with a genuinely awful character 21:03:36 the thing is, if we make it more difficult, what are we going to do? spawn even more pan lords in LOS? make teleport never work? these things would certainly make it harder, but it wouldn't be fun 21:04:11 kill a panlord every level ;) 21:07:45 one of the main issues I have is that I strongly feel that Zot:5 (and picking up the orb) should be the real climax of the game, not the orb run (and if you decide to clear Zot:5 early, well, that's up to you) 21:08:00 -!- RollieTG has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:16 I've magic mapped Zot:1-4 and more or less skipped them 21:08:49 I usually try to Zot dive, but I've been thwarted in that respect on several occasions. 21:08:58 Such as the time I got two evilmike_ambushes >:( 21:09:05 lucky you 21:09:16 adding more zot minivaults would cut down on the chances of that :P 21:09:27 Oh, I'm working on some more stair minivaults. 21:09:37 I think it's around a 2% chance per level to get evilmike_ambush in zot 21:09:43 I should show you the one that's probably too nasty and off-the-wall to actually go ahead. 21:09:51 in D it's probably more like 0.2% 21:10:03 mapstat will tell you the actual odds 21:10:31 http://pastebin.com/NjWfguN1 21:10:40 I give up, someone help me 21:10:49 "else if" -> "elseif" 21:10:51 (also, see if you can guess the reference in the title) 21:11:01 ...that's it? 21:11:02 Lightli: I'm free!!!!! 21:11:08 Well done! 21:11:27 AND IT WORKS 21:11:28 I'm FREE!!! 21:11:31 -!- ZRN has quit [] 21:11:31 evilmike, http://pastebin.com/SL2jWqNA 21:11:46 it's an easy mistake to make. different languages use else if, elseif, elif, elsif... and whatever else you can think of, probably 21:11:53 I don't think I seriously want to go any further with that vault; it's too evil and out there. :b 21:12:14 is that the demonic plants and casting oklobs vault somehow even more mutated? 21:12:30 wonderous, it is 21:12:31 I don't think it's changed much since you last saw it, HangedMan, if at all. 21:12:37 oh god 21:12:47 Throw an oklob that casts tornado in there 21:12:54 Grunt: I'll look at it later, it looks complicated and I'm going to head off right now 21:12:59 Now trying to approach it will also be a horrible idea! 21:12:59 it's amusing if nothing else 21:13:05 if it's too insane, it's fixable though. no need to throw out the whole vault 21:14:03 HangedMan, I should show you the other two more straightforward ones that I have that are more or less done at this point. 21:14:12 http://pastebin.com/WP5Yyj4j 21:14:12 sure 21:15:00 zot bailey looks pretty cute 21:15:13 It works even better than I'd been hoping for. 21:15:41 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:04 nice zot vaults with what's to work with, the both of them 21:17:21 Done 21:17:37 Threw the minivault into the Zot upload "report" 21:17:44 hopefully I'll get around to finishing another batch before my school starts 21:18:10 you know you can upload the finished ones, and save the unfinished stuff for later, right? :P 21:18:22 I've got another 10 days before school starts, and probably another month after THAT before my free time disappears 21:18:37 HangedMan is probably like me in wanting to upload vaults in batches. :b 21:19:32 pff, my complicating perfectionism makes it so that if I "finish" only part of a batch the earlier vaults will get more editing done 21:20:05 -!- _dd has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:20:20 and I kind of want to make a whole bunch of tweaks to my vaults even in (well, mostly the food vaults) 21:20:40 submit them as diffs if you can, it saves a lot of time 21:20:55 What's the difference between a minivault and a regular vault anyways? 21:21:26 A (primary) vault is placed first, and the level is built around it. 21:21:35 Minivaults are placed after the level is built. 21:21:35 yeah, I'll try to finally learn git bash stuff 21:23:36 -!- Sab0t has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:11 -!- PollyEsther_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:25:13 jellybane (L24 HESt) ASSERT(!constricting) in 'monster.cc' at line 137 failed. (Vaults:7) 21:27:45 for the orbrun I think the game should end after getting out of zot 21:29:10 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:30:38 i think its fine to make the player leave Zot:5, at the very least 21:31:23 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 21:31:50 leaving Zot is alright too. anything past that is too much 21:31:52 it'd be kind of nuts just to have it end when you pick up the orb... though you could have picking up the orb have some crazy effect, like killing all monsters on the level which would be ~cool flavour~ 21:32:15 You guys plan on removing the orb run? 21:32:35 "talking about" is not the same thing as "planning to" 21:32:53 Fine. Talking about? 21:34:22 evilmike: what I'd like about it being leaving zot is that you could have zot get all messed up and crumble as you leave 21:34:36 if you can just pick up the orb and be safe/win the game, surely that makes ninjaing much easier 21:34:54 elliott: yeah, exactly 21:35:05 especially if it kills everything on zot:5 :p 21:36:07 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:37:56 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 21:38:28 Lightli, you want to move the :end in _swarmer up to below the stone giant line. 21:38:36 ...otherwise you only get a swarm at depth 16+. 21:38:40 fr:oh 21:39:33 -!- fooobaar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:41:08 Error fixed 21:41:20 Sil has a pretty interesting orbrun, the combination of nonpersistant levels, lots of tough monsters spread across the levels and an unkillable monster chasing you 21:41:36 Unkillable monster? 21:41:48 Isn't it possible to kill Morgoth in that game? 21:42:14 though it has some problems with certain items/skills making it hugely more easy 21:42:26 Lightli: it's possible 21:43:14 "normal" characters don't do that though 21:45:53 " 21:46:07 "normal" means "not-the-pllayer", right? 21:48:06 normal means not ridiculously strong or abusing some certain things 21:50:50 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:54:55 -!- anubiscrapfoobis has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:57:30 -!- Plasmo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:59:28 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:00:02 -!- HangedMan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:06:48 -!- barbs has joined ##crawl-dev 22:07:30 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 22:09:26 -!- Codrus has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:12:36 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:04 -!- ZebTM has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:15:02 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:15:14 -!- Rewans has quit [] 22:16:46 3 hours later, here's an alpha web-based vault editor: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/vaultedit/vaultedit.htm 22:18:48 oh wow you can't select the tile for "easy enemy" (the orange thing with a single . in it) because javascript thinks '0' == 0 22:18:59 === 22:19:04 or was that php. 22:19:10 yeah javascript has === 22:19:16 aww, drag and drop doesn't work :( 22:20:21 i was about to implement that but it was 5 am and i wanted to show this to ##crawl-dev 22:21:46 it is cool 22:21:46 btw do you like my "tree 'tile'" 22:21:53 (left of the door) 22:22:00 good tree 22:22:02 have you considered just stealing dcss' tiles? 22:22:09 also my fountains 22:22:22 i have but i wanted this to look minimalistic 22:22:30 it ended up looking like shit instead though 22:23:35 i'll probably replace them, but keep the abstract item/monster/user-defined tiles 22:24:04 they're much better than what infiniplex's java applet thing did, which is just... all items are ring mails, all monsters are orcs 22:25:19 fun fact: this already supports resizing, but i haven't added an interface for it yet 22:25:50 if you have some kind of javascript console available in your browser try "matrix.resize(8, 8)" 22:28:12 elliott: another problem with using crawl's tiles is: people are going to be confused when designing vaults for, say, lair branches, while using the graphics for dungeon 22:28:52 i could have multiple tilesets but that's there's actually nothing wrong with that 22:29:11 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Doomseeker End Of Line] 22:34:53 hey i can give this thing layers, to facilitate spawning things in shallow water etc 22:36:41 first vault ever made in vaultedit for historic purposes: http://pastie.org/pastes/4589410/text (nooodl_diamond_fortress) 22:37:41 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:39:05 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:49 -!- fooobaar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:26 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:47:19 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 22:47:45 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 22:48:29 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:48:45 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:51:32 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 22:51:33 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:54:26 -!- MPR has quit [Changing host] 22:54:30 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 22:55:08 -!- PoopBridge|ghost has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:56:58 -!- MPR| has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:59:48 -!- MPR has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:59:53 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:03:53 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:05:07 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:05:08 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:18 -!- ussdefiant_ is now known as ussdefiant 23:10:41 -!- Guest42069 has quit [] 23:14:49 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:15:35 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:19:03 -!- blackcustard has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:19:18 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 23:19:42 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:20:26 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:24:09 I'm going to be out of town for the next couple of days and may or may not have an opportunity to check in here. 23:24:26 ...just in case anyone wonders why I don't seem to be around <_< 23:25:28 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:25:50 -!- rufford has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:32:12 !lg ophanim 1000 -tv 23:32:13 1000. ophanim, XL1 OgCj, T:46 requested for FooTV. 23:35:39 fr: let Felids use hats 23:35:56 Why? Simple. Spriggans are the same size as Felids. They can use hats. 23:36:05 Octopodes are similarly incapable of wearing armor. They can use hats. 23:36:33 Due to their massive size, trolls and ogres are locked out of most types of armor. They can use hats. 23:38:52 yes, felids being able to wear hats would be good 23:40:34 fr: let Felids wear captions 23:41:20 p - a +1 caption reading "ohai i upgraded ur ram" 23:42:24 lol 23:42:30 It would never make it in though 23:42:35 ??katana 23:42:35 katana[1/3]: A single-edged sword with a curved blade of ~70-90cm length. It is a very dangerous weapon usually known to be utilized by the samurai. Doesn't exist. (hand-and-a-half Long Blade; Dam 14 Acc +3 Delay 12) 23:42:50 If katanas were removed, then captions would never ever make it in 23:43:09 katana still exist 23:43:11 ?? katana[2] 23:43:12 autumn katana[1/1]: A +8,+8 vorpal katana {clarity} who didn't get the news about {katana} removal. Dam 14 Acc +3 Delay 12. 23:44:14 ??katana [3] 23:44:14 katana[3/3]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KatanasAreJustBetter 23:44:41 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:53:27 -!- Eji has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:53:53 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]