00:01:02 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1934-g0dc9e00 (33) 00:07:48 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1934-g0dc9e00 00:08:05 -!- ark____ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:22:31 Robe of Misfortune showing TODO sprite (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5691) by nomoreoxygen 00:28:47 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:40:22 -!- Textmode has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:41 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 01:00:20 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 01:12:03 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:49:18 -!- G-Flex has quit [Quit: Time for us to bug out.] 02:07:17 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:09 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:48 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:52:08 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:52:42 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:54:47 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:02:17 -!- alefury has quit [] 03:32:00 Xenene the Basher (L11 OgCK) ASSERT(_valid()) in 'ray.cc' at line 194 failed on turn 32733. (D:8) 03:35:16 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:39:36 -!- GreatOrbOfEyes has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:45:01 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 03:50:14 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:52:18 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:01:24 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:13:58 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:14:02 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:17:40 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:30 -!- Nomi has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:10 hi, the warning message in the book of annihilations is printed twice 04:39:27 -!- Thann has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:10 hey guys, I'm new to the community and i was wondering how i should get a patch upstream? 04:40:17 mailing list? 04:41:06 maybe post it on mantis? 04:41:11 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:41:24 for small patches, Mantis is probably best 04:41:44 ok cool 04:42:56 will people be notified of that? or should i bother someone lol 04:52:43 that's what the bug tracker is for 04:58:59 something with deals with menus... not my area of expertise, so I'll leave this for the other guys 04:59:58 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:01 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:00:06 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1910-ge3b5d29 05:00:14 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:09:53 anyone cares if I remove the +min(3,skill) to ammo? 05:11:15 yes, I do. It'd make a conflict in removal of that code. (Sorry for getting distracted and not finishing that sooner, it's a quite big rewrite.) 05:11:47 ok 05:11:52 how is it going? 05:16:32 to be honest, after some tries I stashed it then went doing other stuff 05:16:53 like, gathering the list of nouns for translating 05:17:07 yeah, I saw that :) 05:18:06 I mean if ranged rewrite is postponed, I'd like to remove the +3 because I think it unbalances the early game a bit much 05:18:27 oh, i heard something about you guys needing translators 05:18:32 it looks like cards would be the easiest first thing to tackle: in Polish for example, all messages refer to them either in nominative or accusative. No plurals, no weird cases like brands, etc. And few messages, too. 05:18:33 i could translate to spanish 05:19:05 Nomi: for now, only descriptions are ready for translating, but since there's a bunch of them, you can already start 05:19:45 okay 05:19:59 -!- Ripplez has joined ##crawl-dev 05:20:01 Nomi: http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/docs/translation.txt 05:20:18 hi. i remember before someone saying that they wanted to remove weapon skills from the game. may i ask why? 05:20:55 galehar: Polish noun cases are semi-regular, and in none of card messages the grammatical gender matters. Is that the case with French as well? Will the article be always either removed or a part of the noun? 05:21:05 Ripplez: you'd have to ask that person, because we don't. 05:21:22 oh. maybe it was min delay? was that being removed? 05:21:27 like weapon attack delay 05:22:30 Ripplez: we'd like to have min delay reached at skill 27, but it's a lot of rebalance 05:22:32 IIRC the messages are "You draw XXX.", "This deck can contain the following cards: XXX and YYY.", "cards drawn: XXX, YYY", etc 05:23:11 kilobyte: we need gender for those messages in french 05:23:55 oh. thanks then 05:23:59 that mustve been it 05:24:08 -!- Thann has left ##crawl-dev 05:24:52 kilobyte: what do you think of my proposal on how to store grammatical info for names? 05:26:04 galehar: English already has an article embedded in card names, is that enough for French? (Other languages may use the full Turing-completeness of grammar function if needed.) 05:26:20 kilobyte: also, I forgot to mention that in english files, you could omit desc: and have it be the default. That way, the current files are valid in the new syntax 05:28:01 kilobyte: oh right. In that case, I think it's fine 05:29:21 that "indefinite article" db entry is so thoroughly non-generic that it doesn't make sense for any language other than French 05:29:52 listing sub-values as property1:foo property2:bar might make sense, though 05:30:12 kilobyte: that's the point. Each language define and use the tags it needs. 05:31:00 there's no such thin like "neutral common name" too. 05:31:14 or, some languages have a grammar gender that's a single property 05:32:04 Polish on the other hand has three grammar genders in singular and two in plural, and there's no easy rule Crawl can use converting them 05:33:05 I meant noun, not name. English nouns have a neutral gender, and common by oppposition to Proper. I need to learn some grammatical vocabulary... 05:34:21 Does the translation effort mean that Crawl will soon be gendered? 05:34:57 phyphor: no, although there are some sticky points 05:35:50 phyphor: for example, in some places knowing the player's gender would make things easier but can usually be weaseled around 05:36:07 I already gave up for gods being genderless, though. 05:36:24 :( 05:42:36 a problem: the description for an in-flight IOOD talks about the spell 05:45:38 a possible solution would be to give all spell description keys a " spell" suffix, like it's the case for cards 05:45:47 there may be a simpler way out, though 05:51:58 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:11:01 hi. does crawl in its level generation obey any rules in its creation other than generate three stairs up and down? 06:12:06 Ripplez, it tries to maintain various forms of connectivity 06:12:40 the reason i ask is because i was wondering if you could remake traps to be always obvious but to be created in points where youd want to travel over like behind doors or in corridors leading to stairs or something. the T/D skill can go towards avoiding these traps instead of detection 06:12:59 because currently, they seem to just be annoying and serve no purpose other than making autoexplore fail 06:13:06 except in very special situations like in ossuaries 06:13:28 it is very very annoying and alot of the time you can just step over them like they dont matter 06:16:21 i know that there are other aspects of the game people are working on like the labyrinth and the weapon delay and the translation effort 06:17:15 but if there is time, the trap system i feel needs work because it feels like it doesnt really add anything to the game other than those random GOTCHA moments. and even that is kinda few and far between, in terms of how important itd be on the game 06:17:20 other than zot traps obviously 06:17:24 thank you for reading 06:17:44 shaft traps also can be interesting 06:18:28 I'd like traps that make monsters around you in certain patterns 06:18:31 more interesting than pure damage 06:19:57 brogue had me thinking about traps, i dont know if anyone in the dev team has played it. but there the traps dont damage you, instead they change the interaction of monsters with you, through confusion paralysis and so on. making them at times more dangerous than pure damage because they can leave you in compromising positions 06:20:57 but they also occur at random in open locations reducing to some extent the frequency you step on them. but everytime you do, it is important. it also makes finding these traps very important 06:21:52 the traps in brogue are interesting, but having traps like them would be a very huge change 06:21:54 currently all the mechanical damage traps are not a threat. the random net trap that catchs you is far more deadly but comes up far less often 06:30:02 there has been a lot of discussion about traps months ago 06:31:28 but it kind of died down. dpeg cared most about traps iirc, and he left, so currently nobody is working on traps i think. 06:31:37 theres a huge wiki page about it, though 06:31:49 at least i think its huge, i dont really remember 06:32:03 also probably nothing on it is generally agreed upon 06:32:33 there really was *a lot* of discussion about traps 06:32:50 besides that they most often don't work as expected in roguelikes? :) 06:34:10 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:37:25 if someone makes crawl traps like the ones in brogue I will murder them 06:38:11 well, the first point of discussion was whether to remove traps or improve traps 06:38:22 improving traps lead to cloud traps 06:39:05 which are not really better 06:40:09 you can blink to avoid most of damage, and they tend to do permanent damage as well (item destruction, mutagenic fog) 06:40:50 otherwise, they're effectively the same as mechanical ones 06:41:30 permanent damage was the whole point 06:41:46 because tactical effects are irrelevant without monsters around to take advantage of them 06:42:03 traps that cast shadow creatures 06:42:04 c'moooon 06:42:06 do it 06:42:07 but because clouds do lots of damage the duration was nerfed so much 06:42:16 that cloud traps feel pretty irrelevant to me now 06:42:28 i think i prefer it that way though, i dont like most traps 06:42:38 shafts and alarm traps are cool, shadow creatures might be nice too 06:43:19 shadow boggarts that summon more shadow creatures 06:43:20 trp 06:44:21 Patashu: the funny thing is, boggarts use shadow creatures, so boggarts summoning shadow boggarts is not that uncommon 06:44:38 the issue is that they dont seem to add anything meaningful. its either you take damage or you dont. and in alot of cases, they dont even stay relevant 06:44:41 still not as obnoxious as angband multipliers 06:44:46 dart traps have never made me go DAMN THAT DEV TEAM 06:44:55 more like, sigh step over. ok hit o again 06:46:15 i think mechanical traps could safely be removed without anyone missing them. vaults would have to be fixed afterwards of course, tomb with only zot, alarm, tele would be super horrible. 06:47:50 another idea is having ranged traps. if you see them you can step out of the aoe or disarm them. if you dont see them they only act when its tactically relevant, such as on low hp or with monsters around. 06:47:54 the other issue i dont like about traps i briefly mentioned is that they feel more like GOTCHA moments 06:48:04 there doesnt seem to be much tactical element to it or strategic 06:48:09 other than train T/D for zot traps 06:48:32 Ripplez: cloud traps also used to be very nasty before they were supernerfed 06:48:54 also, zot traps have that inconsistency of working differently for monsters than for you 06:49:00 iirc that was only supposed to be a temporary thing because there was some bug 06:49:24 kilobyte: i would love to see that extended to more traps actually. leading monsters to/over traps is not interesting. 06:49:47 I find taking advantage of tele traps really fun, though 06:49:51 Why would you take that away from me 06:49:53 terrain is cool when it works against you imo, not when it works for you. 06:50:02 getting 8 bad mutations because some random monster can intentionally keep stepping onto a Zot trap is not fun 06:50:18 avoiding a place can be tactically interesting, leading monsters to a place just feels grindy. 06:50:35 Patashu: i like tele traps too 06:51:02 either a known trap can be used against someone else, or it can't. It makes no sense for a monster to be able to do so but not you. 06:51:18 kilobyte: losing that part would be fine imo, but zot traps doing significant damage to monsters would be bad imo. 06:51:56 it's a part of that "lead monster to a trap" thing 06:52:13 kilobyte: monsters know all the potions too and the player doesnt. maybe they know the secret word to abuse zot traps (it's "zot" of course). 06:52:50 the player learns potions soon enough 06:52:59 or maybe zot traps are just a manifestation of the power of zot, which wants to keep *you* away from the orb. 06:54:05 anyway, i would be glad to see the zot dance go, but monsters being immune to most traps would be cool. 06:54:18 the reason i brought up brogue is because, ignoring stuff like how ti works and things, it FEELS like an element of the dungeon, like an actual feature to abuse and be abused by 06:54:29 the traps in crawl dont have that cohesive feel 06:54:40 thats because they are largely irrelevant 06:54:46 and they feel tacked on. i think changing a little of them wont work. i think they need an actual remake 06:55:01 like removing all traps outside of vaults? 06:55:05 because they dont feel like an element of crawl. just that theyre there for the token representation needed 06:55:08 except the cool ones? 06:55:14 no i mean intrisically how they work and how theyre thought of 06:55:29 traps in brogue are as much an element of the dungeon as pools of water of deep pits 06:56:07 they becoem part of the terrain and part of the dungeon. i think its a very good take and traps in crawl feel like annoyances or minor one-of effects that may or may not do anything 06:57:15 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:41 if not, maybe they should simply be removed 06:58:11 because otherwise they dont feel cohesive enough. not in terms of power but in terms of questions like, what is their function. like why are they there at all 06:58:27 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:28 Ripplez: this discussion was already had. traps can be interesting. shafts, alarm traps, and to some extend teleport traps are interesting. 06:58:43 so some people are strongly against removing all traps. 06:58:53 those traps are. those are also all the traps that dont do damage 06:58:54 only effects 06:59:14 just read the wiki page. i think a lot of this is already on it. too lazy to check. 06:59:15 i think net traps can be interesting to in vaults but even including that, those are all the status effect traps 06:59:35 i will. ty 06:59:38 having but a few traps would make the T&D skill irrelevant, but that's not a big loss 06:59:51 also, secret doors 07:00:05 secret doors in dcss suck even more than in nethack 07:00:10 niches for possibly interesting traps were identified as strategic effects and stuff that can create a tactically interesting situations without the help of already present monsters 07:00:21 I can't of a single place secret doors actually add something to the game 07:00:36 the door vault is cool 07:00:41 also the inverse door vault is cool 07:00:52 do secret doors randomly generate still? 07:00:52 i think thats it. 07:00:58 Patashu: yes 07:01:37 if we want to keep shaft and teleport traps, we could make T&D like MR 07:01:56 ie, you get a per-species modifier, and can wear items to enhance it 07:02:37 all other traps... boohoo, I'd miss them so much... 07:02:39 items, like, x-ray goggles? ;p 07:03:02 an item is a bad idea, it encourages swapping for travel 07:03:17 st_: hmm right 07:03:19 just a racial modifier would be swell 07:03:35 I think one problem is that the existence of zot traps depresses the ability to implement interesting magical/terrain changing effect traps 07:03:39 because 'zot traps can alre ady do that sometimes' 07:03:40 or whatever 07:04:04 imagine a trap that drops a net on you and summons gnolls around you. or something like that 07:04:14 maybe should split the zot trap into other traps 07:04:31 so that those traps can occur more often but cant do all sorts of random things 07:04:40 apart from banishment. that is a dangerous one 07:05:25 kilobyte: not all cards have an article. Are you adding one to all of them? 07:05:36 I think another problem is a lack of status effects in existence that are only partially debilitating 07:05:48 For instance, paralysis and confusion make it almost impossible to survive if you're in any danger when they happen 07:06:01 galehar: no. Ones with an article can serve as a translation key just as well as ones without. 07:07:09 kilobyte: about the IOOD desc conflict, the elegant way would be to add a table to the db with the name of the txt files. Each entry would be linked to where it was read from. That might be overkill though. 07:07:20 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:08:31 this was very interesting 07:08:37 the spawn traps. what happened to this idea 07:08:52 what do you mean, what happened to it. I only just came up with it 07:09:00 this would also give T/D some use because it would be relevant throughout the game 07:09:13 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:traps 07:09:41 galehar: all descriptions are currently thrown together into a single bag, perhaps this is the problem? 07:10:00 it might even make disable trap a useful action 07:10:16 were there plans to implement the spawn trap type? 07:10:31 Ripplez: I hate this idea. It means that you'd keep finding new traps on your way to your stash. In the end, trap density would be linear with the frequency of the player visits. 07:10:49 Ripplez: it is an useful thing, you get ammo from it you can use or sac to a god :p 07:11:08 well i didnt think of it as spawning in ANY combat 07:11:16 sort of how like every monster has an associated depth 07:11:25 galehar: +1, there's no way to explain this theme-wise too 07:11:30 kilobyte: or just moving them to individual db, yeah. Since there are a few conflicts. 07:11:40 you could have it so that a group of monsters has a likelihood to spawn a trap over individuals 07:12:08 for example a camp of gnolls could have a chance to spawn a net trap because of the density of the monsters and the type of monster 07:12:27 Ripplez: one way to gain most of the advantage of the spawn trap idea, while preserving theme: traps only have a chance to trigger. 07:12:43 traps have a chance to go off or a chance to spawn? 07:12:47 bonus point: it reduces the number of "trap encounter" 07:13:14 that sounds good 07:13:28 Ripplez: no spawning. Traps are placed at level generation (like they are now), but they only have a chance to go off when stepped on 07:13:36 like 1/3 07:13:37 but then what changes 07:13:48 it's also very easy to implement :) 07:13:49 you just notice them less 07:14:02 Ripplez: less abuse, no way to trivially ensure safety 07:14:18 it means that where you have stepped are not necessarily safe 07:14:49 well in terms of difficulty i obviously cannot comment so i wont like push an idea thats too hard to actually put in. but the spawned traps seem like if you put in like a sort of counter for what kind of monsters spawn what kind of traps, would be alot better than just leaving them around 07:15:08 'Ah, nuts. Good point. Maybe once activated, it spawns a hunter-themed monster just out of LoS, who comes to see what he's trapped, combining a summons and immobilization (and a little flavor to boot).' 07:15:09 I like this one 07:15:12 This is the kind of trap I want 07:15:15 for example, i remember before that alot of ppl were annoyed by how many monsters feel redundant because of a pre-existing monster 07:15:20 this could be a way to differentiate 07:15:22 Traps that create dangerous situations for you, but give you time and opportunity to decide how to react 07:16:07 a pack of war dogs could for example have like a scent trap spawn that causes a cloud so that they can now follow you across the map "detect players" style. things like that 07:16:24 galehar: does that db link thingy you added work for descriptions? Most of missing descs are indeed needed, but {deformed,febrile,grotesque,hideous,mostrous,sickly,twisted} {elf,orc,human} from Cigotuvi's wizlab are too much 07:16:44 'Boulders and other projectiles' 07:16:45 I looove this 07:16:54 because simply making them less likely to trigger doesnt seem to address a point brought up in the wiki which is : 07:16:54 or perhaps that could be handled by forcing a db key instead 07:17:04 Mechanical traps (dart, needle, axe, nets etc. traps) are often uninteresting: If you run into one, most often you get a little damage, rest it off and keep going. Sometimes, you will die (for example to a blade trap). While we can always blame the player for running around with non-full health, or having not enough T&D skill for her maximal health, those deaths are not fun. 07:17:25 and the two points below them 07:17:58 an easier solution might be to split up the zot traps into separate traps that can spawn on their own? 07:18:04 would that be more helpful? 07:18:17 I'm not completely averse to zot traps' continued existence 07:18:41 But there do need to be subset/potentially overlapping themed magical traps 07:25:19 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:25:49 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:26:27 kilobyte: I haven't tested, but links should work with descriptions just fine 07:30:53 actually, having "MONS: butterfly name:chaos n_adj db_key:foo" would remove the need to mess with speech_key as well 07:31:05 currently it needs an additional lua marker 07:32:02 kilobyte: yeah, that might work well 07:32:17 wait, are there chaos butterflies in a vault somewhere? 07:33:13 @??chaos butterfly 07:33:13 unknown monster: "chaos butterfly" 07:33:21 ok, i guess i do still need to add them 07:36:27 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 07:40:58 -!- Ragdoll_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:41:49 -!- Ragdoll_ is now known as Ragdoll 07:42:19 -!- ark____ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:26:23 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 08:26:59 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 08:28:53 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:39:53 !tell Wensley could you tell me what's the point of MONS_PUNCHING_BAG? Can it do anything the training dummy or statue can't already do? 08:39:54 kilobyte: OK, I'll let Wensley know. 08:44:48 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:21 -!- Patashu has quit [Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .] 09:05:57 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:51:33 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:24 -!- Cedor has joined ##crawl-dev 09:55:33 hello boys 09:55:36 -!- Ripplez has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:55:40 (and girls maybe) 09:55:48 hi 09:55:52 :) 09:57:48 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:16 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1934-g0dc9e00 (33) 10:24:49 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:25:00 -!- kek has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27:32 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:48 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:39:29 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 10:43:53 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:46:40 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:11:38 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:18:36 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:38:10 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:30 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:38:35 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 11:38:42 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 11:41:39 -!- ens_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:30 -!- ens has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:49:06 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 12:40:09 -!- SkaryMonk1 has left ##crawl-dev 12:53:47 03kilobyte 07debian-trunk * rfcf01f68c9b9 10/crawl-ref/debian/rules: Fix CPPFLAGS set by dpkg-buildflags being ignored (-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2).. 12:54:51 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 12:54:51 03kilobyte 07debian-trunk * rd40167692f75 10/crawl-ref/debian/rules: Fix CPPFLAGS set by dpkg-buildflags being ignored (-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2). 13:17:13 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 13:19:15 bmfx (L15 SpSt) ERROR: range check error (-15 / 17) (D:18) 13:20:26 !lm bmfx type=crash -log 13:20:27 4. bmfx, XL15 SpSt, T:35791 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.10/bmfx/crash-bmfx-20120521-181906.txt 13:38:53 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:52:47 -!- G-Flex has quit [Quit: Time for us to bug out.] 13:52:51 -!- ark_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:53:17 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:16 -!- ark____ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:59:11 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:12 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:54 -!- Cedor has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:18:10 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20111108220737]] 14:35:18 -!- HangedMan is now known as GreatOrbOfEyes 14:38:36 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:41:17 -!- magistern has joined ##crawl-dev 14:52:47 -!- GreatOrbOfEyes has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:58:16 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:10 tooltip strangeness out of LOS (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5692) by KiloByte 15:10:05 -!- Nomi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:37 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 15:12:49 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:37 -!- Ganrao| has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:18:55 -!- Sombrero_Mott has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:16 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:19:33 -!- G-Flex has quit [Quit: Time for us to bug out.] 15:21:04 -!- Vandal has quit [] 15:22:48 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Changing server] 15:25:15 i have webtiles running on a system. however i keep getting 'websocket connection failed' when trying to get to the lobby 15:25:23 http://46.4.51.176:8080/ 15:25:43 there are no firewalls setup between the box and the outside world. incoming and outgoing are fully open. 15:26:14 any hints for how to debug that issue? 15:35:11 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 15:35:20 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:50:11 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 15:50:36 -!- ens_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:50:39 -!- ens has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55:41 ens: what tornado version are you using? 15:56:19 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 16:15:50 edlothiol: hrm, looks like we're out of tile flag bits. How do you think we should extend it? Is it save to use 64 bit numbers? (I doubt so if it's passed to the client as a number) 16:16:22 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 16:16:37 kilobyte: yeah, I think webtiles is the main problem with extending it to 64 bits 16:17:05 would have to split the numbers, or transmit the flags differently 16:17:38 this particular tile is mimic though, so it could be split into a monster and an item/feature, perhaps 16:17:50 I mean, inept/normal/ravenous mimics 16:18:23 (monstrous can use the ravenous tile, there is only one: the Orb of Zot, which can't be ravenous) 16:18:38 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 16:19:23 we need to extend them anyway, to fix the orcs-as-artefacts thing 16:20:52 artefact orcs 16:23:57 the +4 orc of Equal Opportunity {slay human, Faith *Rage Int-2 Str+2} 16:24:49 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3707 16:36:54 -!- kek has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:50:11 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 16:53:31 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ragdoll] 16:55:30 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:14 ??ravenous 16:56:15 I don't have a page labeled ravenous in my learndb. 16:59:42 !learn add ravenous see {ravenous_mimic} 16:59:42 ravenous[1/1]: see {ravenous_mimic} 17:05:52 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:30 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 17:34:36 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:34 -!- Sombrero_Mott has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:50:51 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 17:51:17 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:01:38 should constriction still occur when the constrictor is petrified 18:02:42 <+edlothiol> ens: what tornado version are you using? 18:03:00 the version that comes with the source archive for 0.10 18:04:13 http://46.4.51.176:8080/ 18:06:04 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 18:07:23 i assigned it a static ip because i thought maybe it was interfering with websockets... 18:11:52 hrm 18:12:01 it's sending back a '426 upgrade required' http message 18:12:29 Sec-Websocket version 8. 18:15:20 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:37 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 18:25:42 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:51 i used wireshark to find that one... 18:33:08 so what websockets version is your client using 18:41:32 not sure, the same version that works for the tiles.crawl.org 18:42:13 according to http://websocketstest.com/ 18:42:19 it supports ssl on port 8080 aswell. 18:43:58 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 18:44:05 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined ##crawl-dev 18:44:08 !tell kilobyte there's a polish thread on the tavern: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=153 18:44:10 galehar: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 18:45:11 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:45:32 hrm, upgrade handshake is part of the protocol apparently 18:47:11 -!- varmin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:22 03galehar * r2c93c12145a4 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Some transifex improvements. 18:47:22 my client version of websockets is version 13 18:47:32 03galehar * rbccc2d8f5e73 10/crawl-ref/docs/translation.txt: Transifex: documentation update. 18:47:33 03crawl-ref-discuss * r780ff9d7a308 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ (es/species.txt ko/skills.txt): Transifex sync. 18:47:33 03crawl-ref-discuss * rf5c5cedc7a97 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ (features.txt monsters.txt): Transifex format fix. 18:51:15 sounds like the server code you have only has old websocket support 18:52:08 no idea how backward-compatible current browsers are with older websocket versions; it's probably a mess as usual 18:53:27 I think that all modern browsers that I care about support all three of the established websocket standards 18:53:27 Wensley: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 18:53:31 !messages 18:53:32 (1/1) kilobyte said (10h 13m 38s ago): could you tell me what's the point of MONS_PUNCHING_BAG? Can it do anything the training dummy or statue can't already do? 18:54:03 "Kikubaaqudgha's Compendium of Stolen Souls"? 18:54:31 training dummy (158) | Spd: 10 | Int: high | HD: 1 | HP: 6 | AC/EV: 0/0 | Dam: 1 | 11non-living, 10items, 10doors | Res: 13magic(immune), 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 2. 18:54:31 %??training dummy 18:55:24 kilobyte: unlike the training dummy, it has enough hp and ac for me to lean against it for a while to be stastically certain that an effect won't happen. unlike the statue, it is not resistant to everything 18:55:55 uhhhh 18:55:56 unknown monster: "punching bag" 18:55:56 %??punching bag 18:56:01 @??punching bag 18:56:01 unknown monster: "punching bag" 18:56:15 Wensley: can't you just use something like rat hp:10000? 18:56:17 what was it, I remember looking it up and seeing it have the same stats 18:56:44 training dummy (158) | Spd: 10 | Int: high | HD: 1 | HP: 10000 | AC/EV: 0/0 | Dam: 1 | 11non-living, 10items, 10doors | Res: 13magic(immune), 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 1000. 18:56:44 %??training dummy hp:10000 18:56:45 elliptic: I also like it when things don't move around, so I can stick them somewhere and not worry about it moving out of the aura 18:56:47 is there some debug option i can turn on with the webserver, or where does it store the logs? 18:57:00 elliptic: also, can you use that hp notation in-game? 18:57:03 yes 18:57:04 because that would solve it 18:57:07 awesome 18:57:20 what did you think mon-spec was for, vaults 18:57:32 ??mon-spec 18:57:33 I don't have a page labeled monspec in my learndb. 18:57:54 the whole hp and spells and perm_ench stuff 18:58:01 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 18:58:21 what are you even talking about 18:59:05 headzone: this is the official source package though :/ 18:59:12 hrm 18:59:23 i will run wireshark against the one on tiles.crawl and see 19:01:05 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:11 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 19:03:54 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:22 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:33:04 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:36:58 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:40:23 03kilobyte * rfed6d9844b17 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Correct pronoun: the Orb is "it" not "he". 19:40:23 03kilobyte * ra33006255978 10/crawl-ref/source/util/db_lint: db_lint: don't care about genus-only monsters. 19:40:23 03kilobyte * r46ac644ab5bc 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (Makefile tool/tile_list_processor.cc tool/tmpfile.cc): Simplify the rltiles makefile by removing a per-target file. 19:40:23 03kilobyte * r4415be98bf5e 10/crawl-ref/ (13 files in 7 dirs): A new monster tag "dbname:", overrides the key for db lookups. 19:40:24 03kilobyte * r2a8b17017647 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-speak.cc mon-stuff.cc shout.cc): Remove unused monster props: speech_func and shout_func. 19:40:24 03kilobyte * rc1f76312926d 10/crawl-ref/source/util/gather_mons: Fix "kmons (" (with spaces) not being caught. 19:40:24 03kilobyte * r567207be7527 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files in 3 dirs): Make the Hellbinder and Cloud Mage real monsters, make them translateable. 19:40:25 03kilobyte * rc74028e73b25 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Use male pronouns for the Hellbinder and the Cloud Mage. 19:40:25 03kilobyte * r0b459ca33382 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ (fr/quotes.txt pl/quotes.txt quotes.txt): Use the English version of a quote. 19:40:26 03kilobyte * ra1a467e00e0c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/quotes.txt: Fix the spelling of a quote's author's name. 19:41:14 03kilobyte * r4ea052688c5f 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/pl/quotes.txt: Put the originals for two quotes into /pl/ 19:41:14 03kilobyte * rf01d4b234d3d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/wpnnoise.txt: Fix a section of Singing Sword text not being used (dpeg). 19:41:14 03kilobyte * rab62dbea3415 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-info.cc mon-info.h): Let clua know whether a monster has a ranged attack. 19:41:14 03kilobyte * rcfdef3c6d7f8 10/crawl-ref/source/l_you.cc: Return fractional values in clua's you.skill() 19:41:14 03kilobyte * rf67a078d8d44 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/pl/quotes.txt: A .pl quote for the Temple. 19:41:14 03kilobyte * r10088a415094 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/pl/quotes.txt: A lame .pl translation of the quote for shedu. 19:41:15 03kilobyte * r058a840bc74b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (rltiles/dc-mon.txt tilepick.cc): Use Crawlish spelling of Gehennom. 19:41:49 kilobyte: that's a pretty awful info leak 19:42:14 03kilobyte * rc1a16f8592eb 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/animals/jackal.png: xnmojo's tile for jackals. 19:42:14 03kilobyte * rd5d3ea0a811f 10/crawl-ref/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Allow clua to query m:is("flag") by name rather than enum. 19:42:14 03kilobyte * rb035df3e9024 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h mon-data.h): Delete the "punching bag" monster. 19:42:14 03kilobyte * r2b82bfc3d473 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: A desc for definable statues. 19:42:21 kilobyte: does it also leak whether an orc knight has an xbow? 19:43:15 kilobyte: or whether an orc has a wand? 19:44:23 most pan lord properties are already displayed, even if they did not have a chance to show them yet 19:44:23 kilobyte: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them. 19:45:23 so hiding whether it's a spelly or melee one is debatable -- not sure what to do there 19:45:26 kilobyte: if you want to make pan lords tell you whether they are casters when you xv them, then it would be fine 19:45:33 but what about orc knights with crossbows? 19:45:54 wands are not displayed, nor shown by mons_has_ranged_attack() 19:46:23 crossbows are pretty important too though... currently you don't learn about them until they shoot you with them 19:46:50 perhaps every monster should only spawn with one weapon 19:47:09 orc with crossbows were already leaked, although only if they were behind water 19:47:12 Wensley: and make them shoot at melee range? 19:48:03 elliptic: wait, enemies with bows and no other weapons don't have their bows revealed? 19:48:07 kilobyte: that's not a good reason to leak them always! 19:48:27 Wensley: I mean, do you want the orc knight to hit you with its bare hands when you get into melee range? 19:48:40 also monsters can pick up crossbows 19:48:40 elliptic: give them javelins of returning, those work in melee range too :) 19:48:59 well crossbows work in melee range, it is just that monsters don't like to use them there 19:49:13 elliptic: they'd leak that on their first move with a fee line towards you anyway 19:49:33 kilobyte: ... 19:49:41 you have a strange notion of leak 19:49:55 kilobyte: the punching bag is only because I didn't know that you could do "training dummy hp:10000" in wizmode. so yes, it's redundant, sorry :) 19:50:04 if an orc knight is in the middle of a pack, you should not have to use lua to figure out whether it has a crossbow 19:50:53 elliptic: there's the coming into view message -- it always shows the melee weapon even if they instantly switch 19:51:00 kilobyte: also, kobolds with blowguns 19:51:31 if you can use lua to figure out whether a kobold has needles before you would otherwise be able to, that's awful 19:51:56 ok, kobolds are an argument here. Realistically, it's hard to not notice a bow slung at one's shoulder, a blowgun can be hidden. 19:51:58 easy fix: kobolds always have needles :) 19:52:07 yess 19:52:31 kilobyte: I just think that any leaks are really bad for something critical like whether monsters can shoot you from afar 19:53:11 if you want to make more info available to players without using the lua, then that's okay... though it could be annoying to have to carefully xv everything for that information 19:53:33 I'd mention that on the welcome message, with reasoning as above 19:53:54 although I did not code that yet to get your input first 19:53:56 "welcome message" meaning when the monster comes into view? that could be fine, yes 19:55:10 I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other about whether this information should be available to the player as soon as you see the monster, just that lua shouldn't leak it 19:56:17 about blowguns, I think the only consistent thing is to assume that they are visible also 19:56:37 what about throwables? poisoned darts... 19:56:58 not shown, I think 19:57:20 it's the same code that "feeling safe" uses 19:58:37 so leaks are not new, they just used to be usable only in rare cases (line of sight but no path to the monster) 20:00:30 the other way would be to flag monsters as "seen ranged" 20:03:34 there's also a strange special case where thrown weapons behave differently based on whether the _wielded_ one is returning 20:08:22 MarvinPA, galehar: which would you prefer? Announcing ranged weapons outright, or storing a flag for a seen ranged attack? 20:09:07 perhaps with a fudge so centaurs and stone giants are assumed to have ranged even with no actual data 20:09:39 if the current code doesn't check throwables then it won't get cyclops/stone giants/merfolk javelineers, yeah 20:09:58 so either way you'd want to do something about that I think 20:10:09 exactly 20:10:29 then there are stone giant shifters... 20:13:52 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120420145725]] 20:16:19 -!- PatashuXantheres is now known as Patashu 20:28:06 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:30:40 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:38:16 is it just me, or does Beogh have a higher chance of getting piety from killing stuff? 20:38:50 Might just be confirmation bias, but i seem to get to *** a lot faster as a HOPr than, say, a Death Knight 20:40:12 -!- ark_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:41:48 does the webtiles system require ssl? 20:44:29 I don't think so? 20:44:33 there's ws and wss 20:44:42 not sure which we use 21:10:33 -!- Pingas_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:11:46 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:11:48 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:13:53 -!- Pingas has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:19:31 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 21:20:58 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:27:42 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Organize your IRC] 21:36:45 AssertionError: Python 2.6+ and OpenSSL required for SSL 21:36:57 i've got python 2.7 and openssl installed..... 21:46:48 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:12:46 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:10 Zot portal mimics (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5693) by Zannick 22:25:27 B) 22:34:33 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:35:33 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 22:47:25 -!- gnsh has quit [] 22:49:12 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:53:03 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:02:17 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:02:32 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:55 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:05:00 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 23:15:42 -!- Pingas_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:46 so why isn't "elementalist" a role 23:33:58 with starting book chosen much as fighters choose weapon? 23:34:42 we've been trying to eliminate starting choices that have significant effect on what the character is like 23:34:46 rast: The SS team is trying to move *away* from that direction 23:35:31 the various elementalists have much more distinct playstyles than the different weapon choices for a fighter 23:36:49 ok, besides the wizards how about the six! additional wizard variants? 23:37:04 ? 23:37:09 ? 23:37:37 it does seem that the game is heavily caster centric when you have 11 roles that are nearly the same except for what spellbook they start with 23:37:59 The spellbook matters quite a lot, though. 23:38:00 or just 10, if you want to say the wizard is differnt from the other 10 because of his stats 23:38:44 rast: conjurer and summoner and necromancer are three completely different roles 23:39:01 sure, i understand that 23:39:13 but there seem to be a lot more options for casters 23:39:15 not to mention stuff like transmuter that you must be counting to get up to 11 that are even more different 23:39:38 whoops, shouldnt have counted rtansmuter 23:39:39 there are 12 roles that don't start with any spells 23:39:54 and 15 that do 23:40:05 a lot of those 12 are cleric-types 23:40:13 /knights 23:40:22 and several of those 15 are really hybrids 23:40:23 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 23:40:41 it seems there are a lot more variants of guy who casts spells than guy who uses weapons 23:41:15 ... 23:41:16 ignoring the hybrids and the cleric types for the time being 23:41:20 why are you ignoring them 23:41:24 this makes no sense 23:41:36 There are more distinct viable starting loadouts for "guy who casts spells" than "guy who uses only weapons" 23:42:15 a berserker is a guy who uses weapons who starts with a specific god instead of choosing the god at temple 23:42:20 etc 23:43:38 if you have suggestions for new non-caster non-starting-god roles that you think would be well differentiated from the ones we have, we'd be happy to hear them 23:44:26 but mashing 8 or 9 caster roles into one isn't about to happen 23:45:07 -!- ens has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:24 it would help if weapons were more distinct 23:45:27 if/when weapon types get better differentiated from each other, I think it could be interesting to replace fighter/gladiator with one role for each weapon type 23:45:36 right then 23:45:38 but that's a long ways away 23:45:56 gladiator is a good variant on fighter anyway for the starting gear 23:46:05 though it seems to me that hes kinda just better 23:46:58 did gladiator lose their starting UC yet 23:47:11 Eronarn: yes unless they start with a qstaff 23:47:43 which is a little silly but it is supposed to be in place of the shield skill they don't get 23:48:23 make staves 2H always 23:48:44 caster nerf (good), removes crappy code (better) 23:49:15 the last remaining crappy code in crawl 23:49:18 were there even any gladiators who primarily fought with poles 23:49:54 -!- ens has joined ##crawl-dev 23:50:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retiarius 23:50:29 (yes) 23:54:21 rast: pole, not polearm 23:54:33 oh, ah 23:54:51 id guess not 23:55:17 it doesnt seem like a good weapon 23:57:07 -!- ens has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]