00:01:17 <Patashu> Is it a bug that hitting a jelly doesn't hurt you if it dies in the same turn? (Might only occur with blade hands)
00:01:34 <|amethyst> Patashu:  that should have been fixed fairly recently
00:01:39 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1783-g3fa52a4 (33)
00:01:52 <Patashu> oh, that's right
00:01:56 <Patashu> it was fixed in trunk, I'm watching webtiles
00:02:06 <Henzell> twelwe the Wrestler (L20 TrDK)  (Elf:4)
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00:10:47 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1783-g3fa52a4
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01:04:28 <Cheibriados> Stack Five causes webtiles freeze (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5665) by Swiss
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09:27:24 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1783-g3fa52a4 (33)
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10:25:42 <Henzell> qtip the Caller (L2 MuSu)  (D:1)
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11:28:40 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1783-g3fa52a4
11:29:38 <|amethyst> @?? xtahua
11:29:38 <Gretell> Xtahua (05D) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal (doors) | HD: 19 | HP: 133 | AC/EV: 15/7 | Dam: 35, 17, 20 | Fl: see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(177), 05fire++, 03poison, 12drown | Vul: 12cold | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 5449 | Sp: flame blast (3d38).
11:31:19 <|amethyst> kilobyte, Napkin:  there are some improvements to 'monster' (branches bleeding-edge-crawl and dcss010) in my repository  http://s-z.org/neil/git/monster-trunk.git
11:34:23 <Napkin> Pirates in my parliament!
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12:41:43 <CIA-115> 03elliptic * ra2c3625a2aa7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (melee_attack.cc player.cc): Don't let visored helmets stop bite attacks.
12:42:27 <Eronarn> woooo
12:42:39 <Eronarn> elliptic: while you're in there you should just make all the helmet types identical
12:42:55 <elliptic> Eronarn: they are now
12:43:02 <Eronarn> spiked helmets don't give a damage boost to headbutts?
12:43:12 <elliptic> can't get headbutts while wearing a hard helmet
12:43:20 <elliptic> since you need horns
12:43:29 <Eronarn> ah, huh
12:43:46 <Eronarn> excellent, silly hat patch can rise again
12:43:53 <elliptic> this tiny thing with visored helmets was really the last non-cosmetic feature of the seven or eight or whatever helmet flavors
12:44:27 <Eronarn> yeah we really don't need that many, until we get cosmetic variants for other things :P
12:53:12 <ghallberg> Spiked bowler hat.
12:53:21 <BlastHardcheese> fr top hats
12:53:33 <BlastHardcheese> and give frederick a guaranteed one
12:53:38 <ghallberg> BlastHardcheese: Old hat.
12:56:06 <__duncan> you know what would be super duper cool? in-game display of # of people viewing your particular game
12:56:29 <Eronarn> BlastHardcheese: silly hat patch had top hats
12:56:46 <Eronarn> monsters wearing hats is trickier than it seems though
12:56:58 <Eronarn> it's all hacks for no good reason
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13:22:41 <Henzell> minmay the Executioner (L27 MuBe) ASSERT(branch >= 0 && branch < NUM_BRANCHES) in 'branch.cc' at line 50 failed on turn 83299. (Hell)
13:34:29 <Gretell> trabius (L13 OpCK) ASSERT(you.wizard && !you.did_escape_death()) in 'xom.cc' at line 3817 failed. (D:8)
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14:33:17 <MarvinPA> elliptic: hurrah!
14:33:26 <MarvinPA> death to silly helmet special-cases
14:34:13 <elliptic> I actually didn't realize until recently that I had sneakily killed off the spiked/horned helmet stuff already :P
14:34:19 <MarvinPA> haha
14:39:47 <evilmike> what about just removing helmet flavours?
14:40:03 <evilmike> it's fun to find golden helmets but it's weird that they even exist...
14:45:41 <ghallberg> evilmike: why's it so wierd?
14:45:47 <ghallberg> I assume they are gilded
14:46:24 <evilmike> ghallberg: I forget how many helmet flavours there are, but there are a lot. What makes it weird is that they are the only items that do this, except for gloves/gauntlets
14:46:25 <elliptic> evilmike: I'd be in favor of at least removing most of them
14:46:36 <evilmike> but with gloves/gauntlets it's just two "flavours", and it's easy to come up with a way they can be differentiated
14:46:40 <elliptic> there are a ridiculous number
14:46:46 <ghallberg> I'm more in favour of adding variants to ther stuff
14:46:47 <evilmike> it's like 7 or something
14:46:56 <elliptic> there is also eronarn's idea of making cosmetic stuff like this optional
14:47:00 <ghallberg> as long as it's purely cosmetic
14:47:47 <evilmike> spiked, horned, crested, visored, golden, normal.... did I miss any? I think jewelled were removed a while ago
14:49:41 <elliptic> winged
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15:06:53 <phyphor> I ought to write up my thoughts on gloves being the equivalent to caps, and gauntlets being like helmets
15:07:24 <phyphor> and have the differentiation in foot wear
15:08:16 <phyphor> so you can wear the lower level (0 base AC< but can be enchanted and have egos) with the lo wlevel muts, but only the higher quality ones with no mut, and none at all with mut3
15:10:55 <ghallberg> greaves vs. boots?
15:11:09 <evilmike> phyphor: the idea of making gloves like caps is pretty old, yeah
15:11:53 <ChrisOelmueller> well that's a better idea than having seven different helmets
15:12:27 <evilmike> it's nethacky (calling it that will get it removed quicker)
15:12:29 <phyphor> ghallberg: or maybe "shoes"
15:12:50 <ghallberg> shoes lol.
15:13:10 <ghallberg> Nah but seriously shoes are a bit to modern?
15:13:20 <phyphor> ...
15:13:44 <phyphor> the distinction between shoe and boot dates from circa 1400
15:13:59 <phyphor> if 600 years is too modern then I don't know what ot suggest
15:14:41 <phyphor> sandal?
15:15:10 <phyphor> þwong ?
15:15:14 <kilobyte> I'd rather just remove the gauntlets/gloves distinction.  Also, 7f8b6d85.
15:15:14 <Henzell> kilobyte: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
15:15:30 <phyphor> of course then people will make comments about characters in thongs
15:15:42 <phyphor> kilobyte: what about removing wizard hats and only leaving caps?
15:16:02 <kilobyte> phyphor: but, but cornuthaum! :p
15:16:17 <kilobyte> phyphor: makes sense, yeah
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15:16:33 <phyphor> alternatively make wizard hats give +int for each +AC they have
15:16:40 <phyphor> because that's not at all nethacky :P
15:16:47 <BlastHardcheese> clairvoyance
15:16:49 <evilmike> you could make wizard hats like bracers (eg, they all come with a specific ego)
15:17:07 <evilmike> this would mean removing them as starting equipment from wizards though :(
15:17:31 <|amethyst> nah, just reduce wizard starting int by 3 to compensate
15:18:40 <|amethyst> it's kind of silly that wizards (of appropriate races) would want to swap out their hat for a helmet at the first opportunity
15:18:59 <evilmike> that's a good point
15:19:28 <phyphor> It seems odd that wizards start with a wizard hat
15:19:43 <evilmike> It's odd, but I like it. It's just a weird perk they get
15:19:44 <kilobyte> evilmike: I'd just remove wizard hats outright.
15:20:03 <phyphor> you can have arti-caps that are described as a wizard hat
15:20:08 <kilobyte> yeah
15:20:10 <phyphor> there's precedent for that
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17:06:25 <|amethyst> is there any reason explore horizon doesn't have a glyph by default?
17:07:53 <Eronarn> the way i used 'wizard hat' in my silly hat patch was 'unusual hat'
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17:08:09 <Eronarn> so you could have rare normal hats (like a sombrero), and also unusual hats (also includes masks, goggles, etc.)
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17:08:24 <Eronarn> i felt that division worked really well
17:08:37 <Eronarn> since they do end up with different egos
17:08:55 <HangedMan> silly boots, silly gloves, silly cloaks
17:09:00 <|amethyst> silly robes
17:09:21 <Eronarn> actually the patch did all of those
17:09:27 <HangedMan> what, really
17:09:29 <Eronarn> it's just called 'silly hats' because i started with hats
17:09:50 <Eronarn> but i also had clogs, moccasins, etc.
17:09:56 <HangedMan> while there are some ginnicky things with current equipment I'm not sure about semi-serious minutae like this
17:10:06 <Eronarn> HangedMan: think of it like hats in TF2
17:10:13 <Eronarn> just there for people to have fun with
17:10:43 <|amethyst> rogue meets paper dolls
17:10:47 <HangedMan> so present in exponential numbers and purchasable?
17:10:59 <HangedMan> tiles doll editor, brought to console
17:11:01 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: probably disagreement about the color or something?
17:11:02 <Eronarn> |amethyst: pretty much. people already identify with their characters strongly
17:11:25 <HangedMan> identifying with cats
17:11:39 <Eronarn> just imagine when felids are able to wear caps
17:11:42 <Eronarn> and caps can show up as goggles
17:11:45 <Eronarn> cat wearing goggles
17:12:07 <|amethyst> I like the idea, especially if it is optional (i.e. players can set a flag to collapse everything to, say "cap", "hat" and "helmet")
17:12:24 <Eronarn> yes, definitely (i think it would be good to get rid of the cap/hat distinction though)
17:12:25 <|amethyst> or just cap and helmet if there isn't an ego distinction between the rarities
17:12:28 <HangedMan> if it was optional then I'd support it
17:12:57 <ChrisOelmueller> also what is a mask
17:13:03 <Eronarn> ??mask of the dragon king
17:13:03 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled mask_of_the_dragon_king in my learndb.
17:13:05 <HangedMan> cap
17:13:05 <ChrisOelmueller> right
17:13:12 <Eronarn> ??mask of the dragon
17:13:12 <Henzell> mask of the dragon[1/1]: +0 cap with SInv MR(40) Acc+3 Dam+3, looks like "blue mask" when unIDed.
17:13:15 <Eronarn> like that
17:13:20 <ChrisOelmueller> FR dragon king
17:13:26 <Eronarn> though i do have the potentially silly idea that maybe masks could change your glyph if you're wearing them
17:13:29 <Eronarn> that could be fun
17:13:40 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  I would like to see an Octopode King unique
17:13:47 <ChrisOelmueller> ooh
17:13:49 <Eronarn> (as an option, overriding the other stuff)
17:14:08 <Eronarn> |amethyst: not going to happen, i don't think - do we have any uniques named after unrands that don't drop those unrands?
17:14:39 <Eronarn> maybe an octopus prince? kind of like how there's Cigotuvi's Monster
17:14:42 <|amethyst> Eronarn:  no reason he couldn't drop those unrands
17:14:43 <Eronarn> but Cigotuvi himself is gone
17:14:49 <Eronarn> or princess :)
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17:14:51 <|amethyst> I was thinking like Boris and Morg
17:14:51 <HangedMan> cigovuti was ever in?
17:15:01 <HangedMan> his spell is still in
17:15:08 <Eronarn> boris doesn't drop morg, though
17:15:18 <|amethyst> I guess the difference is an octopus king would be mortal
17:15:20 <Eronarn> that too
17:15:40 <Eronarn> HangedMan: one of these days i will manage to convince someone to do Cigotuvi's Regeneration
17:15:50 <HangedMan> impossible
17:16:00 <Eronarn> actually come to think of it
17:16:00 <|amethyst> maybe a "garden of the octopus king" portal vault with octopode monsters and a (non-King) unique
17:16:11 <Eronarn> ??twisted resurrection
17:16:11 <Henzell> twisted resurrection[1/4]: Converts all piles of corpses in LOS into crawling corpses or macabre masses, very weak attackless creatures that can merge to form abominations.  Creates 1HD worth of creatures per 60 to 20 aum, depending on spell power (and with half efficiency past 15 HD).  Small aboms require 6HD and two corpses, large 11HD and three corpses.
17:16:38 <Eronarn> this + regen + degen as nec/tmut. degen makes something periodically take heavy damage and bud off a crawling corpse
17:16:40 <HangedMan> if there are eventually enough wizlabs, the unrand namesakes and the spell namesakes could get a split
17:17:13 <Eronarn> and give regen some crawling corpse interaction too
17:17:18 <Eronarn> like make them merge with you as if you were an abom
17:17:34 <HangedMan> !vault wizlab_cigovuti
17:17:37 <Henzell> Couldn't find wizlab_cigovuti in the Crawl source tree
17:17:53 <|amethyst> !vault wizlab_cigotuvi
17:17:54 <Eronarn> |amethyst: definitely in favor of garden of the octopus king. i have plans for it already
17:17:57 <Henzell> Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/197438
17:18:12 <Eronarn> should be underwater with magical air bubbles; lots of colorful coral scenery
17:18:17 <|amethyst> Eronarn:  octopode uniques named John, Paul, George, and Ringo?
17:18:19 <HangedMan> oh, it already has lots of aboms
17:18:21 <Eronarn> hahhaha
17:18:27 <Eronarn> that is a Good Idea
17:18:50 <Eronarn> we could actually do it now that dpeg is gone
17:19:29 <HangedMan> actually differentiating them sounds silly and spoiler-esque
17:19:43 <HangedMan> erm, differentiating them beyond equipment
17:21:37 <BlastHardcheese> baby it's better
17:21:41 <BlastHardcheese> down where it's wetter
17:22:32 <Eronarn> HangedMan: differentiated by ringo not being able to write worth a damn
17:23:11 <|amethyst> heh
17:23:18 <HangedMan> all of them carry scrolls and he has a scroll of random uselessness?
17:23:21 <|amethyst> and paul being a zombie
17:24:50 <Eronarn> what is the status on getting stuff in trunk right now, anyways
17:25:01 <Eronarn> how much time do i got
17:25:12 <|amethyst> getting beatles in trunk is probably not going to happen
17:25:27 <Eronarn> nah
17:25:33 <|amethyst> I don't know about release planning
17:25:33 <Eronarn> i want to get lava orcs in
17:26:34 <Eronarn> i also brainstormed a bit about pact god and i think i could get a prototype going
17:28:50 <|amethyst> pact god?
17:29:09 <|amethyst> it's a pity that the vehumet stuff seems to have stalled
17:29:51 <HangedMan> have to carefully dole out new things so that people don't write off every version
17:30:35 <HangedMan> and at early points in development so that balance is tested out over time and why isn't vaults 5 floors shorter and each branch end stair specially marked so people to walk into branch ends stupidly
17:30:41 <HangedMan> s|5|3|
17:33:29 <BlastHardcheese> one does not simply walk into vaults:8
17:33:56 <HangedMan> there was a "don't" supposed to be in there
17:34:20 <HangedMan> I am evidently slowly losing all ability to speak, which is nothing new
17:44:50 <MarvinPA> i did push the veh stuff to a branch
17:45:34 <MarvinPA> but never got around to looking into it in much more detail, i think one of the main things it needs is to save the gift statuses which i know nothing about (but should probably learn sometime!)
17:54:53 <Eronarn> |amethyst: pact god gives you abilities that are largely passive and oriented around summoners and transmuters
17:55:08 <|amethyst> is there a writeup on the wiki?
17:55:18 <Eronarn> no, it's based on an old kiku proposal from SF
17:55:33 <|amethyst> what kind of abilities?
17:55:34 <Eronarn> in that proposal, kiku would offer you an ability, which you could accept or reject; reject pushes it down several spots in the queue, or maybe removes it entirely
17:55:43 <Eronarn> this is a similar sort of gimmick, with some tweaks of course
17:56:05 <|amethyst> so kind of like new veh, but with passives instead of spells?
17:56:07 <Eronarn> abilities might be something like 'natural monster summons are much more powerful'
17:56:17 <Eronarn> and they'd come in tiers
17:56:28 <HangedMan> summon two quicksilver dragons with one cast
17:56:49 <|amethyst> "let my summons avoid the coming nerfs"
17:57:11 <Eronarn> the idea is to promote a 'one strong ally' playstyle, or summoner hybrid, etc.
17:57:19 <evilmike> i think if/when a summon cap goes in, summons will need to be made less random (among other changes). so thats something to keep in mind if spells are changed
17:57:31 <evilmike> by less random, i mean, you shouldn't have to spam summon demon until you get a sun demon
17:57:33 <Eronarn> though you can do a pure caster one, a bunch of the abilities would be melee-advantageous
17:57:44 <alefury> fr: pondering wizlab, because hat of pondering
17:57:52 <evilmike> belongs to gastronok though
17:57:54 <|amethyst> alefury:  hat of pondering already has a source
17:57:56 <HangedMan> fr death wizlab, because death's door
17:57:57 <evilmike> that would be like making a morg wizlab
17:58:06 <|amethyst> wizlab of the wizard that gastronok ate
17:58:07 <alefury> gastronok only drops it sometimes
17:58:11 <ChrisOelmueller> you enter and get ddoor cast on you
17:58:26 <Eronarn> the pact sources i've been playing with are nature, the four elements, death, demons, otherwordly powers
17:58:33 <Eronarn> but i'm thinking of refining it to just nature + the elements
17:58:41 <evilmike> that sounds good
17:59:06 <|amethyst> having a summoning-oriented god would go nicely with the vehumet changes
17:59:59 <alefury> ??morg
17:59:59 <Henzell> morg[1/1]: Many years ago it was the property of a powerful mage called Boris. He got lost in the Dungeon while seeking the Orb. {-1,+4 dagger; Pain Brand; Magic Resistance; +5 Intelligence}
18:00:16 <evilmike> he never drops it, i think there's code that will make him pick it up though
18:00:27 <Eronarn> you might have a natural life pact progression like: vermin (bonuses in spider form or summon scorpions), ???, dragons (possibly some dragon-ish mutations, boost to dragon form / summon dragon)
18:00:29 <|amethyst> evilmike:  how to do that without reducing variety?
18:00:52 <|amethyst> evilmike:  I mean, there are times that I want white imps and times I want shadow imps
18:01:09 <evilmike> |amethyst: the summon thing? base it on spellpower imo. you get one demon, and at certain spellpower it becomes a stronger demon. it would need to be a straight upgrade though
18:01:26 <evilmike> so, summon imp is obviously a problem (if we want to keep this spell we probably want to allow multiple imps to be summoned)
18:01:36 <Eronarn> the idea is that you'd be able to hit tier 3 in something, but not in all things. exact number would have to be worked out (possibly 5, so you can do max in one power source + 2 in another)
18:01:38 <ChrisOelmueller> i do like "summon thing that i don't know exactly what i will get"
18:01:48 <|amethyst> evilmike:  it's rarely a straight upgrade unless you're talking about boring things like canines
18:01:52 <evilmike> the problem is that with a summon cap, this could get very annoying
18:02:03 <Eronarn> is anyone interested in implementing my idea of imps as distractors
18:02:13 <evilmike> if you want a sun demon and get a hellwing, you would have to kill it, then resummon, kill, resummon, until you get what you want
18:02:21 <HangedMan> aren't imps seesentially already distractors
18:02:23 <evilmike> unless recasting would "overwrite" the summon ,but I dont know if that would play well
18:03:06 <Eronarn> HangedMan: i mean moreso. like making shadow imps have umbra, white imps throw snowballs (distraction/acc penalty) instead of throw frost
18:03:12 <|amethyst> HangedMan:  also poor man's animate dead
18:03:18 <Eronarn> so less offensive power, but more defensive/distraction power
18:03:26 <Eronarn> (well, not even necessarily the former, but definitely the latter)
18:03:38 * HangedMan shrugs
18:06:04 <Eronarn> in any case shadow imps should lose animate dead
18:06:59 <alefury> re getting stuff into trunk: tourney in august, so probably release planned for juli, which would mean feature freeze sometime in june
18:07:37 <alefury> if there are no dates on the wiki page about future version planning, nobody set any
18:07:51 <HangedMan> wasn't somebody collecting plans from everybody?
18:07:58 <|amethyst> galehar was
18:08:42 <alefury> hm, that page isnt even updated for 0.11
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18:32:04 <|amethyst> hm...
18:34:34 <st_> I think that god should replace kiku, because ugh kiku is awful right now
18:35:11 <st_> really overpowered and reduces character differentiation
18:36:01 <|amethyst> just drop pain brand
18:36:12 <|amethyst> I mean, Kiku's pain brand option, not the whole brand
18:36:57 <elliptic> I think pain brand vs necronomicon would be a real choice if pain brand was nerfed a bit
18:38:03 <elliptic> however I do think that kiku and vehumet both really need some form of randomization in their spell-gifting
18:38:39 <st_> I still dislike how any character can just go kiku and become a necromancer aswell as whatever they start as
18:39:22 <elliptic> what if kiku gifted two randart necromancy books instead of the three fixed ones you currently get?
18:39:22 <|amethyst> they can do that without kiku, it's just more luck-based
18:39:37 <elliptic> so that they would definitely have holes in their spellset
18:39:37 <CIA-115> 03kilobyte * re1e780082482 10/crawl-ref/source/throw.cc: Check for exploding missiles by brand, not name.
18:39:44 <HangedMan> early golden runes is nice, at least
18:39:47 <CIA-115> 03kilobyte * rb277918bc197 10/crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.reST: Manual updates from the wiki.
18:39:47 <CIA-115> 03kilobyte * r5222bfe58e7a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (decks.cc decks.h): Remove a never-has-been card, "Summon Any".
18:39:59 <|amethyst> evilmike:  one 1-4 and one 5-9 ?
18:40:17 <st_> |amethyst: exactly... that's a good thing, one of the things I dislike about crawl is how the gods are so reliable
18:40:29 <elliptic> well, this would be in addition to necronomicon option
18:40:33 <elliptic> so not spells from there
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18:40:54 <elliptic> more like one book with 1-4 and one book with 3-6, say
18:41:19 <elliptic> assuming you mean spell levels there
18:42:14 <|amethyst> good point
18:42:14 <|amethyst> and sorry about the mistab there
18:42:26 <|amethyst> or one with an undead focus and one with a non-undead focus?
18:42:33 <elliptic> this would hopefully mean that people would sometimes find themselves using underused spells like lethal infusion or corpse rot or whatever instead of doing the same thing every kiku game
18:42:35 <|amethyst> I guess that would need more special-casing in the code
18:42:45 <|amethyst> hm
18:42:57 <elliptic> yeah, I wouldn't do that
18:43:04 <Eronarn> kiku gifting randbooks would be great
18:43:37 <|amethyst> how about three small randbooks instead of two full-sized?
18:43:55 <elliptic> that's also possible, yes
18:43:59 <ChrisOelmueller> oh nice kiku improvements
18:44:08 <Eronarn> |amethyst: in my kiku plan, would've been nec/sum
18:44:13 <Eronarn> the first one would've been 'book of dark secrets'
18:44:13 <ChrisOelmueller> boringestgod
18:44:23 <Eronarn> we could go with some kind of initiation rite theme
18:44:28 <Eronarn> first, second, third circle
18:46:21 <evilmike> randomizing kiku's spell gifting is a good idea
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18:46:57 <elliptic> it would be nice if we had a second L1 necro spell
18:47:02 <Eronarn> i also feel like the necronomicon/painbrand should show up later
18:47:09 <|amethyst> elliptic:  second?
18:47:12 <Eronarn> elliptic: animate skeleton is usable early on
18:47:13 <evilmike> is fulsome still necro? :P
18:47:20 <elliptic> oh those don't count :P
18:47:20 <|amethyst> elliptic:  pain, animate skeleton, fulsome
18:47:24 <|amethyst> oh
18:47:30 <elliptic> I guess animate skeleton is okay
18:47:32 <|amethyst> animate skeleton is a good L1 spell
18:47:33 <evilmike> I rather like animate skeleton too, you get chunks and a free ally (evven if it's weak)
18:47:35 <Eronarn> skele is fine, it's just normally superceded quickly
18:47:36 <elliptic> fulsome shouldn't be gifted though
18:47:39 <evilmike> I sometimes macro animate skeleton to c
18:47:41 <Eronarn> fulsome shouldn't be
18:48:15 <Eronarn> note that gas traps already use 'colored vials', i noticed this earlier
18:48:17 <elliptic> so the first kiku gift should have at least one (exactly one?) of pain and skeleton, then a few L2/3 spells
18:48:19 <evilmike> I actually dont think animate skeleton is made obsolete, if you can use it instead of butchering it's almost always a good idea to do so
18:48:25 <Eronarn> so the vial fulsome/evap proposal makes even more sense
18:48:34 <elliptic> evilmike: the skeletons are a bit annoying
18:48:47 <HangedMan> there are lots of uses for the skeletons though!
18:48:55 <Eronarn> elliptic: making draining brand do something more interesting would maybe help lethal infusion
18:48:59 <evilmike> I don't mind having lots of skeletons, I can see why some people don't like it though
18:49:00 <elliptic> lethal infusion is fine
18:49:07 <|amethyst> FR: starting book with animate skeleton and inner flame
18:49:12 <|amethyst> that's it, nothing else
18:49:20 <HangedMan> starting book with animate skeleton and lee's rapid deconstruction
18:49:24 <Eronarn> also can we do regen nec/tmut already thanks in advance
18:49:31 <Eronarn> HangedMan: needs tloc apport chunk spell too
18:50:07 <elliptic> I think two books might feel the most natural, with one having L1-3 spells and the other having L4-6 spells
18:50:10 <HangedMan> clearly
18:50:14 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: yess
18:50:19 <elliptic> they could both be fairly small
18:50:19 <HangedMan> screw you death channel?
18:50:28 <elliptic> death channel can be made L6 :P
18:50:31 <evilmike> agreed
18:50:34 <Eronarn> can death channel be made to be not terrible
18:50:41 <Eronarn> the most recent 'fix' to it was awful
18:50:48 <evilmike> death channel would be usable at a certain level
18:50:52 <evilmike> at level 9 it was hilarious
18:50:57 <elliptic> being temporary is much better than being permanent
18:50:58 <evilmike> (ly bad)
18:51:16 <evilmike> i actually used L9 death channel on a character once
18:51:31 <elliptic> at L6 it might be okay, especially if you aren't guaranteed as many other spells
18:51:54 <evilmike> also, antother way to buff it would be to buff spectrals
18:52:05 <evilmike> getting a plain spectral elf after killing a deep elf blademaster is kind of lame
18:52:11 <elliptic> oh, another thing about this sort of randbook change is that it makes Ne of kiku make sense again
18:52:19 <evilmike> yep
18:52:39 <elliptic> the first gift might even give you something useful like corpse rot that isn't in the starting book
18:52:45 <Eronarn> i'd like to see death channel be nec/hex, touch, if you kill them while the status effect is around you get a permanent but can't leave level spectral with pretty good stats
18:53:09 <Eronarn> this way it feels really different from the other nec 'summons'
18:53:13 <HangedMan> but my shadow channelllllllll
18:53:17 <HangedMan> ...
18:53:20 <HangedMan> shatterchannel
18:53:46 <Eronarn> HangedMan: that just opens the door to a fullscreen nec/hex L9 version of that effect :)
18:53:57 <Eronarn> nec/hex/earth
18:54:00 <evilmike> oh, here's something else: kiku needs to gift a spell that uses corpses. if it's random you'll most likely get a corpse using spell, but I think there should be a guarantee
18:54:08 <HangedMan> completely uncastable outside of zigs
18:54:18 <evilmike> it would be very odd if you don't get any corpse spells, given that kiku lets you summon corpses
18:54:23 <Eronarn> it would be good to have a few more corpse using spells
18:54:26 <Eronarn> but yes
18:54:34 <Eronarn> (bone shards.....)
18:54:50 <HangedMan> make bone shards double-targetted
18:55:12 <HangedMan> the first targetting being smite
18:55:23 <elliptic> evilmike: yeah, probably
18:55:41 <evilmike> if i had to reimagine bone shards, i'd make it an lrd-like spell that you use on friendly skeletons. maybe detonate all allied skeletons in LOS
18:55:47 <evilmike> it would be higher level than the old one
18:57:46 <Eronarn> what about: you can choose a friendly skeleton or corpse/skeleton on the ground; if not, it uses you (and you take damage). the skeleton disassembles, deals damage in a line, then reassembles at the end (maybe, and having taken some damage)
18:57:59 <Eronarn> corpses get butchered and animate-skeletoned
18:58:10 <evilmike> you're making me think of the yellow devil from megaman
18:58:22 <evilmike> splits apart, shoots at you, reassembles
18:58:37 <HangedMan> fr give skeletons rElec-
18:58:39 <Eronarn> yeah pretty much that
18:58:43 <evilmike> more like rPause-
18:59:02 <Eronarn> i guess it'd also be funny if, if you fired it using your skeleton, you could get a (your race) skeleton of (playername)
18:59:16 <HangedMan> octopodes
18:59:30 <|amethyst> wouldn't be able to use it of course
18:59:41 <|amethyst> on themselves
18:59:41 <Eronarn> yeah they'd only be able to cast it on skeletons
18:59:50 <Eronarn> see also ice form
19:00:06 <kilobyte> special fun as lich
19:00:20 <HangedMan> less self-damage as lich
19:00:23 <Eronarn> i think the interface for this wouldn't actually be too bad - cast it, and you cycle through valid origins. hit enter to choose, then you cycle through valid targets, showing the beam
19:01:02 <Eronarn> it's not a spell you'd want to cast all the time
19:01:22 <HangedMan> can this hypothetical bone shards be given to hellwings
19:01:24 <evilmike> I'd like a way to skip the first part and cast it on yourself. Maybe 'Z' casting
19:01:30 <Eronarn> HangedMan: that would be amazing
19:01:54 <Eronarn> it would have the effect of them teleporting around you... which helps in surrounding you
19:01:55 <HangedMan> but I've macro'd z to Z because there are lots of times I want to cast target spells without targetssss
19:01:57 <Eronarn> and just imagine that in the abyss
19:02:34 <Eronarn> it'd be super useful in lichform i guess haha
19:02:51 <Eronarn> i guess the damage would offset it being free cblink
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19:04:51 <evilmike> I have z and Z swapped too, I think lots of people do
19:05:17 <evilmike> for me it's mainly a spell ranges thing (the Z interface makes it easier to deal with limited range spells)
19:05:49 <HangedMan> I think fireball doesn't catch people at the edge of a potential explosion manually
19:06:14 <evilmike> yeah there are lots of times you want to cast spells when the game thinks there are no valid targets
19:06:40 <ChrisOelmueller> the solution would be to fix those cases though
19:06:43 <evilmike> basically any AOE spell, but also several conj spells when you have nightstalker or darkness
19:06:48 <ChrisOelmueller> not using an interface that wasn't meant for this
19:07:01 <ChrisOelmueller> (well it was, in parts)
19:07:33 <Eronarn> solution: remove nightstalker and darkness
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19:08:42 <evilmike> at least you need to combine those with ash to get the most out of LOS abuse
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19:09:12 <evilmike> (you see monsters as '{' and can shoot them with bolt of fire, but they can't see you)
19:09:45 <HangedMan> pale draconians
19:10:51 <|amethyst> Felid ash -> trog what?
19:10:53 <|amethyst> doh
19:10:54 <elliptic> evilmike: about kiku randbooks needing to contain at least one corpse-using spell, I think this will be handled by requiring that the first gift gives two L2 spells, which means it will have at least one of corpse rot and sublimation
19:11:19 <elliptic> (the only other L2 spell is lethal infusion)
19:11:33 <evilmike> elliptic: that could work, although I think corpse sublimation is a bit too weak to be worth using with the invocation
19:11:44 <|amethyst> evilmike:  hm... then felids would be guaranteed both
19:11:50 <|amethyst> err
19:11:51 <|amethyst> elliptic:
19:12:15 <elliptic> |amethyst: why not gift them a useless spell?
19:12:55 <st_> kiku does give the torment invo which needs a corpse
19:13:14 <|amethyst> elliptic:  they won't even see it unless they specifically examine the spellbook
19:13:40 <|amethyst> Hm
19:14:17 <elliptic> evilmike: we could impose more control over things, of course
19:14:43 <|amethyst> elliptic:  mainly because that would eb a change
19:14:47 <|amethyst> elliptic:  wait
19:15:02 <|amethyst> now I see the avoid_uncastable flag
19:15:11 <|amethyst> I thought that was always on, my bad
19:15:49 <elliptic> anyway after looking over the necromancy spells we have, something like 1 L1, 2 L2, 1 L3, 1 L4, 2-3 L5, 1-2 L6 looks reasonable to me
19:16:38 <elliptic> |amethyst: we'll probably have to special-case this gift creation anyway
19:16:54 <|amethyst> that's true
19:17:09 <HangedMan> at what piety levels to put these two gifts compared to the current 3?
19:17:21 <|amethyst> there should definitely be something at 1*
19:17:25 <elliptic> * and *** probably
19:20:11 <elliptic> the main question I see at the moment is what to do about control/dispel undead... guarantee exactly one of the two?
19:20:27 <|amethyst> if you want guaranteed control you could play Ne
19:20:40 <|amethyst> add dispel to the necronomicon :)
19:20:51 <elliptic> another option is to give kiku *** gift guaranteed dispel undead
19:21:01 <|amethyst> yeah
19:22:19 <CIA-115> 03dolorous * r031595791ca0 10/crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Properly put CARD_REMOVED_1 references in #ifdefs.
19:26:20 <evilmike> i wouldnt put control undead in "guaranteed spells"
19:26:26 <evilmike> or any nercomancer starting spell
19:26:50 <Eronarn> it's ok to have some overlap
19:26:55 <Eronarn> also, add new necro spells :P
19:26:56 <HangedMan> too good for tomb zigs
19:27:01 <HangedMan> and dwarf zigs
19:27:19 <evilmike> I'd want kiku to be able to gift control undead, I just wouldn't want it guaranteed
19:27:40 <|amethyst> evilmike:  you're guaranteed to have overlap at levels 3 and 4
19:27:51 <elliptic> evilmike: right, I was saying guarantee dispel undead
19:28:04 <|amethyst> every L3/L4 necromancy player spell is in the starting book
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19:28:08 <Eronarn> i'd like to see a ghost-related lower level spell and a new nec/tmut offensive spell
19:28:37 <elliptic> evilmike: by "guarantee exactly one of two", I meant either you get control or you get dispel
19:28:43 <evilmike> |amethyst: ah, that's a good point. Well, that overlap can be allowed
19:28:44 <elliptic> but I think I prefer just guaranteeding dispel
19:28:53 <evilmike> elliptic: ah, I see
19:28:54 <Eronarn> as is you just kinda get nothing until death channel/haunt
19:29:16 <HangedMan> earth/necro something spell with graves
19:29:55 <MarvinPA> "18:39:22 <elliptic> what if kiku gifted two randart necromancy books instead of the three fixed ones you currently get?" this sounds great to me
19:30:14 <Eronarn> HangedMan: zombie arms with constriction burst out of the ground
19:31:02 <Eronarn> since it just involves randomly placing a new monster, that would be trivial
19:31:24 <Eronarn> i bet people would use it too
19:32:17 <CIA-115> 03elliptic * r82e2780034df 10/crawl-ref/source/ (book-data.h spl-data.h): Make Death Channel L6.
19:32:30 <elliptic> since nobody seemed to be objecting...
19:33:47 <MarvinPA> seems fine to me
19:33:52 <kilobyte> Eronarn: mechanically it's another Leda, but theme-wise <3
19:34:18 <CIA-115> 03galehar * ra136646cb340 10/crawl-ref/source/util/ (add-missing-quotes.pl tx-quotes.pl): Rename the quotes script.
19:34:18 <CIA-115> 03galehar * r40aa7b76bbda 10/crawl-ref/source/ (Makefile util/tx-mktxt.pl): tx-mktxt.pl: replace the -o option by -m with opposite effect.
19:34:18 <CIA-115> 03galehar * rd68c9ad14ee8 10/crawl-ref/source/util/ (tx-mkini.pl tx-push.pl): Add support to update the english transifex contribs with git content.
19:34:19 <CIA-115> 03galehar * r09a1477601fd 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ (quotes.txt unident.txt): Remove empty lines.
19:34:19 <CIA-115> 03galehar * r7b3c60efbe33 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Update transifex translations.
19:34:19 <CIA-115> 03galehar * r3d3260df7ad1 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Clean translation files before pulling.
19:34:29 <HangedMan> leda's but without the self-nelaty
19:34:29 <CIA-115> 03galehar * r1a0f30b534ca 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ (el/gods.txt es/ability.txt): New transifex translations.
19:34:35 <HangedMan> ...penalty
19:35:18 <kilobyte> elliptic: if we removed ammo enchantment, what the mulch formula should be?  I guess using the relevant skill would be best.
19:35:34 <elliptic> kilobyte: I'd prefer a constant
19:35:44 <elliptic> that is, have it only depend on the material of the ammo
19:35:54 <Eronarn> kilobyte: well, it'd be targeted, which leda isn't
19:36:18 <Eronarn> also it wouldn't have the weirdness of leda i guess
19:36:28 <HangedMan> the bugginess of monster leda's
19:36:46 <Eronarn> i don't get why leda's can't just be 'ground is treated as shallow water' and that's it
19:36:55 <HangedMan> merfolk
19:37:32 <elliptic> kilobyte: since I don't think having it depend on skill makes much sense or is really very interesting in gameplay terms
19:37:46 <Eronarn> HangedMan: i just mean for fumbling, move speed, size affeting it, etc.
19:39:17 <HangedMan> doesn't remove the main reason why people dislike it (fumbling and self-slow movement) while at the same time hitting the main strength of it in the first place (effect slow for anything not flying)
19:39:50 <kilobyte> elliptic: could you change throw.cc to whatever values you'd suggest?
19:40:31 <Eronarn> i think it would be fine if only things around the player were affected
19:40:39 <Eronarn> like how ignite poison was changed to not hit yourself
19:41:16 <|amethyst> galehar: I added a first quote translation for es in transifex, but your recent update didn't get the new descript/es/quotes.txt . . . or is there some moderation process?
19:41:18 <Eronarn> ps, someone should code monster ignite poison some time
19:41:30 <Eronarn> since now the nice code for burning everything in the player's inventory is commented out :(
19:41:43 <galehar> |amethyst: yes, it only pulls stuff which are "reviewed"
19:41:47 <|amethyst> aha
19:41:48 <|amethyst> okay
19:42:10 <HangedMan> screw you, anybody using fulsome/evaporate
19:42:15 <HangedMan> you clearly deserve it
19:42:18 <Eronarn> exactly
19:42:23 <Eronarn> though with new-evap it'd be less bad
19:42:25 <HangedMan> screw you kobolds
19:42:25 <galehar> |amethyst: I can make you coordinator if you want
19:42:33 <|amethyst> no, that's fine
19:42:37 <HangedMan> youare decided to be something that should be hurt by this one thing
19:42:53 <|amethyst> A real Spanish speaker should make sure I didn't introduce any typos
19:43:18 <|amethyst> likewise for English, despite it being my native language
19:43:55 <HangedMan> dolorous blamelessly, endlessly does it for everything anyway
19:43:56 <|amethyst> I have a tendency to leave out words from commit messages
19:44:29 <|amethyst> presumably there are languages dolorous doesn't speak
19:44:35 <|amethyst> obviously we need to clone him
19:52:29 <CIA-115> 03elliptic * rf5e878c98386 10/crawl-ref/source/throw.cc: Make ammo mulch rate not depend on enchantment.
19:52:33 <elliptic> kilobyte: ^^
19:55:27 <Eronarn> hooray
19:57:46 <kilobyte> <3
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20:30:36 <HangedMan> a lot of the features-based serial vaults should have transparent added to them, they end up making floors create massive numbers of hatches
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22:06:34 <CIA-115> 03kilobyte * r52340c5ab6b1 10/crawl-ref/source/throw.cc: Eliminate the effect of ammo enchantment.
22:06:35 <CIA-115> 03kilobyte * r96b90b26cc33 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-act.cc throw.cc throw.h): Move monster throw code as well.
22:06:35 <CIA-115> 03kilobyte * rec45d1d2c53f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (14 files): Eliminate missile enchantments.
22:07:28 <Eronarn> <3
22:08:17 <nrook> "eliminate missile enchantments"
22:08:19 <nrook> oh that's cool
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22:21:17 <dtsund> Oh hey
22:21:23 <dtsund> I was actually planning on doing that myself
22:23:51 <evilmike> I wonder how big of an effect this has on assassins (was mentioned in the commit message). their curare needles will be used up half as quickly now
22:24:58 <dtsund> Could just give them half the needles, but then you've got the reverse of the Law of Large Numbers working against them
22:25:34 <dtsund> Alternately, could just make all needles single-use and give them a lot more
22:25:38 <evilmike> well, they only start with 3
22:26:06 <dtsund> Alternately alternately, take away their curare and give them some confusion and sleeping
22:26:26 <Eronarn> please, please make needles single use
22:26:32 <Eronarn> the status quo is so dumb
22:26:47 <evilmike> i'd go with single use, and then dial up the number of needles you get from god gifts
22:26:57 <evilmike> maybe give sonja more curare too, I don't know
22:27:39 <Eronarn> why would that be necessary? she doesn't usually have a chance to pick up and reuse needles
22:27:57 <dtsund> Because players get a curare reward for beating her?
22:27:59 <evilmike> oh, it's more because you get to pick up the needles she shoots at you
22:28:05 <evilmike> it's about the reward, yeah
22:28:11 <Eronarn> just kill her faster :D
22:28:15 <evilmike> this is a far smaller issue than god gifts in any case
22:28:34 <Eronarn> it would be nice if someone would fix the other needles so that they are at all sane
22:28:39 <Eronarn> too bad that is not going to happen
22:28:56 * dtsund is actually planning on something rather more experimental than just removing missile enchantments
22:29:28 <Eronarn> i still say unlimited +0 is the way to go, but this is a good move anyways
22:29:40 <dtsund> Eronarn: That's the experimental plan I have.
22:29:49 <Eronarn> dtsund: have you tried tome4? that's what it does
22:29:56 <dtsund> Nope.
22:29:58 <Eronarn> and arrows always mulch
22:30:20 <dtsund> But I was going to make unbranded ammo for bows/slings/xbows be implicit.
22:30:24 <Eronarn> it's infinity times more fun than ever having to ick up arrows
22:30:43 <dtsund> If you quiver something, it'll be +0 branded.
22:30:45 <Eronarn> the only ammo you have to worry about has actual interesting effects, like being auto hit or really high damage
22:31:22 <dtsund> I haven't worked out what'll happen to unbranded darts and javelins if I do that, though.
22:31:50 <Eronarn> dtsund: make 'throw stone' an attaack anyone can do; other throwing ammo is limited in supply but much better
22:32:03 <Eronarn> touching range could help there too, like if stones only hit out to range 4 or something
22:32:15 <dtsund> Eronarn: No, the issue would be competing against bows.
22:32:29 <dtsund> Like, you could pick up a random bow and start firing arrows forever, and never care about darts.
22:33:11 <Eronarn> requires swapping, no shield, ideally should require some decent investment before you can use improved base types (longbows)
22:33:17 <dtsund> Slings then.
22:33:50 <Eronarn> still requires swapping, still requires skill
22:34:15 <Eronarn> if you do slings you're giving up being able to fire without swapping
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23:06:31 <Gretell> Debian builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1800-gec45d1d
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